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Scottish people was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||
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Contents
- 1 Wallace family Norman? No.
- 2 um hello?
- 3 Ireland is not in the United Kingdom and they are pretty firm about that
- 4 unable to source this, removed
- 5 scotch is a whiskey - removed text
- 6 rm citizenship text from lede, since no reference or discussion has been forthcoming
- 7 how about you discuss instead of reverting
Wallace family Norman? No.
Nor sure about every one of the other 'Norman' family names quoted, but I'm quite sure that the name 'Wallace' wasn't Norman in origin. In fact it is a variant of 'Welsh' presumably a reference to the inhabitants of SW Scotland (prev northern Cumbria)being of Old British i.e. Welsh, stock. Cassandra Cassandrathesceptic (talk) 15:45, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
- Clan_Wallace#Origins_of_the_clan Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:10, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
um hello?
this part here: "the Norse settled many regions of Scotland from the 8th century onwards. " ... settled? Wasn't this more in the flavor of multiple invasions and Viking raids and such? They did conquer part of Britain at one point but they didn't just find empty land and move in Elinruby (talk) 11:15, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- "I changed "settled" to "invaded and colonized", made some other copy edits. If nobody has any problems with the changes I consider the issue I was raising resolved. Elinruby (talk) 09:21, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Ireland is not in the United Kingdom and they are pretty firm about that
Also, Ulster is not in Ireland. You're thinking about Northern Ireland, also known as Belfast. Similarly, though, Northern Ireland is also not in Ireland; ; that is its whole point. So this is why I removed the sentence in the article that said there were many Scottish people in other parts of the UK such as Ireland, especially Belfast. There are some historical technicalities about the borders of Ulster but as far as present-day governance is concerned, ya, there are different countries there, and some of the do or don't belong with the others. The Republic of Ireland found for more than 300 years to not be part of Great Britain, no?. I was also rather concerned by a statement that said almost everyone living in Scotland is a British citizen. Scottish citizens are British citizens, devolution or not, afaik, but there might be som exceptions I don't know about, but I think this sentence may be talking about immigration as in, presumably, counting everyone not born in Scotland (?) Totally unclear apart from the jusrisdiction errors mentioned earlier. Really should have a source no matter what. I am more inclined to expect Irish immigration to Scotland especially given the potato famine. Elinruby (talk) 13:08, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- It is confusing, isn't it? I'd recommend you to read Terminology of the British Isles as this should clarify a few things for you. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:15, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- Some of what you write is correct, Elinruby, but the historical province of Ulster spans Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, and Northern Ireland isn't also known as Belfast - Belfast is a city in Northern Ireland. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:18, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- right. this would be the historical technicality with the borders of Ulster than I mentioned. But how does one get from there to "other places in the United Kingdom such as as Ireland", mmm? I don't think I am the one who is confused. But let's see. How is Ireland part of Britain? Explain this to me. It's *northern Ireland* surely, facepalm. Elinruby (talk) 17:37, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- "other parts of the United Kingdom and in the Republic of Ireland" not "such as as Ireland". Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:40, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- Dude, read your sentence. Try "other parts of the United Kingdom such as Belfast, and also in Ireland." For example. Maybe. Once you provide a reference for this somewhat startling statement. Even the above sorted out it's still unsourced and probably wrong, imho. The migration was in the other direction afaik, but I'll refrain from rudely reverting you since you're answering here even if hasn't yet occurred to you that you might be wrong ;) I *will* if you don't source that, toute suite, though Elinruby (talk) 17:49, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- "other parts of the United Kingdom and in the Republic of Ireland" not "such as as Ireland". Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:40, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- right. this would be the historical technicality with the borders of Ulster than I mentioned. But how does one get from there to "other places in the United Kingdom such as as Ireland", mmm? I don't think I am the one who is confused. But let's see. How is Ireland part of Britain? Explain this to me. It's *northern Ireland* surely, facepalm. Elinruby (talk) 17:37, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
I'm at a loss to comprehend as to what you find startling about this pretty straightforward sentence or, in the main, what you are talking about overall. You do not seem well-versed on this subject so please do not edit in regard to it. And do not "dude" me, it just adds to the foolishness you are displaying.
You falsely claimed that the contended section had said "other places in the United Kingdom such as as Ireland" when it had in fact said in full "Large numbers of Scottish people reside in other parts of the United Kingdom and in the Republic of Ireland, particularly Ulster where they form the Ulster-Scots community.". So large numbers of Scottish people reside in other parts of the United Kingdom; large numbers of Scottish people reside in the Republic of Ireland. This is particularly so in Ulster, part of which is in the Republic, part in the UK. Not startling. Mutt Lunker (talk) 18:11, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
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- I agree, having reviewed your behavior on several topic-related pages. You are not a dude; you appear to be more of a Bro. Where's your source? (Trying again) Northern Ireland is not Ireland. Yes, some Scots became planter stock some centuries ago, that is true, I believe, although it wasn't well-documented last I looked. That was a while ago though so let's,
yes, say that the bit about the planters could also use a source.[1] But what I am asking you -- it's becoming almost a heroic saga -- for is a source on your assertion that there is a population of Scottish ethnicity in Ireland. And I am also trying to get you to understand that your sentence is both more readable and more correct if you put Britain with Britain and Ireland with Ireland. Your suggestion that I am ill-informed on this topic is hilarious. If you want to WP:OWN this article you are welcome to it but I want it to at least be accurate. While we are at this, please explain your lede -- how do you get Scottish people in Scotland who are not British citizens? I don't think the SNP has gotten that far yet. :) Elinruby (talk) 18:30, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- I agree, having reviewed your behavior on several topic-related pages. You are not a dude; you appear to be more of a Bro. Where's your source? (Trying again) Northern Ireland is not Ireland. Yes, some Scots became planter stock some centuries ago, that is true, I believe, although it wasn't well-documented last I looked. That was a while ago though so let's,
I am adding a reference for your Ulster planters, and will attempt as I do to fix your grammar problems, which you seem determined not to understand.Elinruby (talk) 06:26, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
-
- See proposed edit. It is open to discussion; the one concern *I* have is that once you delete Ireland (which is still NOT part of the United Kingdom whether you revert-war or not) then Ireland is not mentioned in the article, and there probably is *some* Scottish ancestry in the Republic. However, I am just not the one who wants to say this, so I think @Mutt Lunker: should do his own research and write that up if he wants that in. Onus is on the person who wants to add the text. Right now, the article has bigger problems imho. Elinruby (talk) 06:54, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
References
- ^ I'll take care of this for you
unable to source this, removed
" Later the Norse arrived in the north and west in quite significant numbers, recently discovered to have left about thirty percent of men in the Outer Hebrides with a distinct, Norse marker in their DNA[citation needed]. I do, to be clear, see authoritative-looking sources for Norse ancestry, but not for the 30% nor the West Hebrides. I don't care if it stays deleted or gets sourced but since 2014 is long enough for an unanswered citation needed tag to hang out. Elinruby (talk) 19:38, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
scotch is a whiskey - removed text
Let's start there:
The number of Americans of Scottish descent today is estimated to be 20 to 25 million[1][2][3][4] (up to 8.3% of the total US population), and Scotch-Irish, 27 to 30 million[5][6] (up to 10% of the total US population), the subgroups overlapping and not always distinguishable because of their shared ancestral surnames. The majority of Scotch-Irish originally came from Lowland Scotland and Northern England before migrating to the province of Ulster in Ireland (see Plantation of Ulster) and thence, beginning about five generations later, to North America in large numbers during the eighteenth century.
- Also where are these Scotch-Irish numbers coming from, because this is not a census choice I don't think? Unless it's a write-in? Your source again does not provide a page number. This may be true but you haven't really cited it
- Next, can we re-write the last sentence to avoid seeming to say that all Ayrshire and other lowland emigration was funneled throgh Belfast. Thanks so much 20:56, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
References
- ^ James McCarthy and Euan Hague, 'Race, Nation, and Nature: The Cultural Politics of "Celtic" Identification in the American West', Annals of the Association of American Geographers, Volume 94 Issue 2 (5 Nov 2004), p. 392, citing J. Hewitson, Tam Blake and Co.: The Story of the Scots in America (Edinburgh: Canongate Books, 1993).
- ^ Tartan Day 2007, scotlandnow, Issue 7 (March 2007). Accessed 7 September 2008.
- ^ "Scottish Parliament: Official Report, 11 September 2002, Col. 13525". Scottish.parliament.uk. Retrieved 2012-08-25.
- ^ "Scottish Parliament: European and External Relations Committee Agenda, 20th Meeting 2004 (Session 2), 30 November 2004, EU/S2/04/20/1" (PDF). Scottish.parliament.uk. 2011-08-14. Retrieved 2012-08-25.
- ^ Webb, James H. (2004). Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish Shaped America. Broadway Books. pp. Front flap. ISBN 978-0-7679-1688-2. Retrieved 15 July 2016.
More than 27 million Americans today can trace their lineage to the Scots...
- ^ James Webb, Secret GOP Weapon: The Scots Irish Vote, Wall Street Journal (23 October 2004). Accessed 7 September 2008.
rm citizenship text from lede, since no reference or discussion has been forthcoming
"and the majority of people living in Scotland are British citizens." -- there is nothing in the wikilinked article about Scottish people not having British citizenship. It's a complicated question, which is why I attempted to discuss. But to my knowledge all the nuance comes in when people are getting British citizenship through a parent that were born in some other country such as Nigeria or Australia; then it matters when the person was born and how the parent was a citizen and so on. But if you are born in Scotland you are a British citizen period as far as I know, and I do not see anything indicating otherwise. The text I removed is strictly speaking true but as far as I know only in the sense that there are people who live in Scotland who are Polish or Pakistani or some other nationality. In other words, immigration exists, sure but isn't it trite and potentially misleading to have this in the lede? Why would Scottish people NOT be British citizens? And since it does not seem that they ever aren't (although there may be some edge cases involving a French child raised by grandparents or whatever...) why confuse matters in the lede by saying that almost everyone is? Yeah? Who isn't?
On a related note, one of the problems with the article is a lack of definition. What are "Scottish people"? What, especially, are "Scotch-Irish?" -- I think attempting to use census data for this group risks conflating several Irish and Scottish peoples. The fact that people identify as "English" or "French" in Canada for instance does not usually indicate recent immigrant ancestors -- it's more of a tribal identity, and other things play into it like language, religion and the Montreal Canadiens. So beware of census data unless it is defined, is what I am saying, and this is just one example from a culture I know a bit about. I am not proposing that we use a blood quantum but I am wary of an article that seems to be inventing a heritage out of whole cloth.
I am still looking for any basis for the assertion that there is a Scottish population in Ireland -- I am sure Scottish ancestry is out there, but the King James plantation was in Ulster and while I had forgotten about Cromwell's efforts along these lines, is there any evidence that the people he sent over were Scottish as opposed to English? The whole article feels like a hastily written middle-school assignment. Elinruby (talk) 06:19, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
- I've resolved this to my own satisfaction, but to summarize, since there has been confusion: 1) Ireland is not part of the United Kingdom and should not be in that section, so 2) I have again deleted the reference to it. 3) This had the benefit of removing the tangled antecedents I was complaining about above; that sentence makes sense now. 4) The only question in my mind now is whether there should be a subsection about the Irish of Scottish ancestry. I am willing to believe that some do exist but I have not found a reference for this and am not really interested enough to keep trying. If someone wants to write a section about this I am all for it, except it does need to be correct, and maybe have a reference even. If that's ok with everybody we're done here Elinruby (talk) 09:16, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
how about you discuss instead of reverting
@Mutt Lunker: Is this article intended to be about the Scottish planters in Northern Ireland? Or people who have a Scottish ancestor at whatever remove? Or what exactly? There does seem to have been some use of the term "Scotch" in Ontario, which I find astonishing, since I theoretically should have encountered it there in that case, due to family. But ok, Galbraith is a pretty authoritative source, but he apparently came from right up the road from Dutton, and therefore should not be all that culturally different than the people I know. I am not certain whether this was an instance of an out-group embracing the name they are called. This is an open question in my mind. Apart from that, I don't see the term being used outside Northern Ireland, and I can assure you that the term is extremely disliked in Scotland. Your sources don't use the term, at least not in their titles. If you have some sort of source for the widespread use of Scotch then please bring it. I'll take another look at your sources but they are mostly kinda pitiful in this article.... Please substantiate your use of the term "Scotch", which is what I am objecting to. Elinruby (talk) 08:50, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
- Thank goodness Wikipedia articles aren't written based on "what you know" or what you "theoretically should have encountered". The fact is while "Scotch" is currently out of favor in Scotland itself, it historically was the adjective of choice and still is quite common outside of Scotland. For starters, see the references at Scotch-Irish Americans (specifically the "Terminology" subsection) and Scotch (adjective) (not the best article, but may have some relevant sources). As for the scope of this particular article, I believe it is fairly well-defined in the lede.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 09:57, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
- Couldn't have put it better myself. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:37, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
-
-
- That bit about "I would have expected to encounter it" was a side comment. I actually *added* the bit about Galbraith, which had been in a refn, since it appears to be notable, even though I personally find it surprising. What I said about the title is speculation (we are on the talk page not the article), but is currently my opinion. But I haven't researched the matter to find a source for it so I am just mentioning the book right now and leaving it at that. So ok, apart from that, if this is about all Scottish people, which the lede seems to say, (I guess that is what your snide comment is supposed to mean) then there is significant Disney-fication to be dealt with. But let's start by fixing the stunning number of dead links in the article. Also, a lot of the more sweeping generalizations are unsourced or not supported by the purported references. Article does not cover its topic, imho, and I still do not see a reference for the use of Scotch. I don't care what the wikipedia page says -- it is not a reference. Elinruby (talk) 14:17, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
- @Elinruby: Could you please use less generic edit summaries. With the high volume of edits you are making, it would seem you could afford to be a bit more specific, to allow other editors to follow what you are actually doing. For example, the addition of a single, undated "citation needed" template isn't really covered by "Adding/improving reference(s)" [1]. Drchriswilliams (talk) 16:51, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
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- well it is *asking* for an improvement , but alright, if it's a problem I will try to accommodate. I did do exactly this just now, but I hadn't seen this request yet. Normally I would simply make the change but the changes keep getting reverted with little explanation. Sorry for any annoyance. Elinruby (talk) 09:37, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
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- @Elinruby: Could you please use less generic edit summaries. With the high volume of edits you are making, it would seem you could afford to be a bit more specific, to allow other editors to follow what you are actually doing. For example, the addition of a single, undated "citation needed" template isn't really covered by "Adding/improving reference(s)" [1]. Drchriswilliams (talk) 16:51, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
- That bit about "I would have expected to encounter it" was a side comment. I actually *added* the bit about Galbraith, which had been in a refn, since it appears to be notable, even though I personally find it surprising. What I said about the title is speculation (we are on the talk page not the article), but is currently my opinion. But I haven't researched the matter to find a source for it so I am just mentioning the book right now and leaving it at that. So ok, apart from that, if this is about all Scottish people, which the lede seems to say, (I guess that is what your snide comment is supposed to mean) then there is significant Disney-fication to be dealt with. But let's start by fixing the stunning number of dead links in the article. Also, a lot of the more sweeping generalizations are unsourced or not supported by the purported references. Article does not cover its topic, imho, and I still do not see a reference for the use of Scotch. I don't care what the wikipedia page says -- it is not a reference. Elinruby (talk) 14:17, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
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