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Contents
- 1 RfC: Should "right wing" be added to definition of fascism
- 2 Please remove the "radical, right-wing" from the general definition of Fascism
- 3 Semi-protected edit request on 9 April 2019
- 4 Copyright violations
- 5 Semi-protected edit request on 16 April 2019
- 6 Semi-protected edit request on 16 April 2019
- 7 Left-right scale
RfC: Should "right wing" be added to definition of fascism
Do reliable sources support a change to the definition of Fascism so that "right wing" is added to the first sentence of the Lede? petrarchan47คุก 20:37, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Brief history:
Mention of "right wing" in the Lede was for years situated only at the bottom of the first paragraph:
In 2014 it read
- Although fascism is often placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum, several academics have said that the description is inadequate.
Without changing or removing sources, in 2015 it was amended
- Fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.
This version remained stable until February 2019, when in addition to the "left-right spectrum" sentence, the primary definition (first sentence of Lede) changed from
- Fascism is a form of radical authoritarian ultranationalism, characterized by...
to
- Fascism is a form of radical, right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism, characterized by...
Related discussion:
Discussion
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Comment [Changed to Oppose; see below] I can't support this change until WP:RS is shown to support it. This addition represents a substantial change to the definition of "fascism" and to longstanding Lede section; input from the wider community seems desirable. petrarchan47คุก 20:55, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- Aquillion, substantial changes to the Pedia, especially when it's to the Lede which represents a definition of a word, and when we have Google picking up our definition and adopting it as their own, needs to be supported by RS. The change should have been accompanied by a justification that includes RS and specifies the text within it that was used to make this change -- a change which diverges from other dictionary references and from our own longstanding Lede. Unless RS is shown, this change cannot be supported according to our own guidelines. petrarchan47คุก 21:07, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- So the essence of your complaint is that the fact that you have to look past the first paragraph of the lede for the many many many many RSes already there supporting that statement that literally no non-WP:FRINGE source disputes is a deal-breaker? That's some good WP:WIKILAWYERING right there. I suggest you back away from the WP:DEADHORSE. Simonm223 (talk) 21:13, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- Aquillion, substantial changes to the Pedia, especially when it's to the Lede which represents a definition of a word, and when we have Google picking up our definition and adopting it as their own, needs to be supported by RS. The change should have been accompanied by a justification that includes RS and specifies the text within it that was used to make this change -- a change which diverges from other dictionary references and from our own longstanding Lede. Unless RS is shown, this change cannot be supported according to our own guidelines. petrarchan47คุก 21:07, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Do sources support this change? Not likely. The addition of "right wing" was made without any reference to the sources in the article, and edit summaries for this change do not suggest that sources played any role. For years, Wikipedia editors agreed that the previous wording adequately summarized the article, and I've seen no indication that any editors thought otherwise until this February when the change was made with no discussion, with only a reference to what seems like nothing more than personal opinion.
- So we have:
- community consensus for years supporting the version without "right wing"
- our own Definitions of fascism, which does not support the idea that fascism is defined as "right wing"
- Encyclopaedia Britannica and
- Merriam Webster do not even mention "right wing" in their definitions
- This Atlantic article from 2016 (The Elusive Definition of 'Fascist') summarizes the issue thusly:
- [Fascism was the 3rd most-searched word on Merriam Dictionary in 2015], between socialism and racism, which is just where fascism began in the 1920s. Now, many political commentators, especially on the left, detect a fascist moment in the Western democracies. But is fascism an accurate heuristic for the populist movements in the United States and Europe that have arisen in recent years, or is invoking the term just a kneejerk way of condemning political opponents? And if it’s inaccurate, might the word still represent a useful case study on the debased value of political language?
- The problem, as they might say at Merriam-Webster, is in the definition. Scholars of fascism do not agree on what fascism means
- If scholars can't agree, then how can we? The previous, long-consensed, nuanced version more accurately reflects the voices of scholars and definitions from other similar platforms. It therefore should be restored until a proper RS-BASED discussion has ensued.
- The work we do here sometimes ends up in the press, and it is a good idea to always question: how would I feel about this edit/argument in this case? (I don't know of any such plans, but IMO this is a way to assess things from a NPOV.)
- Imagine media honing in on how Wikipedians go about changing the definition of a widely used word... and looked at this case study.
- Across the web, as of February 25th, the definition of fascism now includes "right wing" when anyone searches it on Google or Bing, or Alexa. The argument for making this change, when other sources have not, must be a good one. But if it is driven solely by politics and momentary talking points from cable news, that obvious bias will further erode WP's reputation. petrarchan47คุก 22:38, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support mention in first sentence of lead. The sources support the idea that Fascism is practically the textbook definition of a far-right movement, to the point where the terms are sometimes used interchangeably, and that this is one of its defining features; furthermore, this characterization is necessary to understand both discussions of Fascism and the modern understanding of the left / right spectrum in general. --Aquillion (talk) 20:54, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm hoping for actual quotations, specific RS. A few examples would be helpful. petrarchan47คุก 20:56, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- The purpose of and RfC is to get the comments of other editors, which is what you're getting, not for other people to do your research for you. I challenge you to provide even a single citation from a reliable source which supports "eft-wing." Until you do, I predict there is not going to be a change made here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:00, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- You're misrepresenting me. I asked Do reliable sources support a change to the definition of Fascism so that "right wing" is added to the first sentence of the Lede?. The person who makes a change to the encyclopedia is responsible for the supporting RS. This change was made without adding RS or explaining how existing RS was being read differently to justify this change. I don't need to provide RS as I am not suggesting a change. I'm saying that editors need to follow the PAGs and they haven't been in this case. petrarchan47คุก 20:56, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- I suggest reviewing the sources already in the article, which are unequivocal. In any case, an RFC is not the appropriate place for drawn-out discussions - Fascism's identity on the right of the political spectrum is perhaps the most well-cited part of the entire article, and is such a basic part of the topic that failing to understand it implies a complete refusal to read any reliable sources on it at all before contributing (let alone the numerous ones already cited in the article.) I understand your concern that it was previously worded more cautiously, but that caution did not reflect the unified and unequivocal nature of the best sources, and therefore violated the WP:NPOV requirement to
avoid stating facts as opinions.
--Aquillion (talk) 21:04, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- The purpose of and RfC is to get the comments of other editors, which is what you're getting, not for other people to do your research for you. I challenge you to provide even a single citation from a reliable source which supports "eft-wing." Until you do, I predict there is not going to be a change made here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:00, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm hoping for actual quotations, specific RS. A few examples would be helpful. petrarchan47คุก 20:56, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support per Aquillon, my comments above, and the consensus opinion of anyone who knows anything about the subject. BTW, the RfC is malformed: "right-wing" is in the lede currently, so the question should be whether it should be removed or not. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:00, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose Scanning through sources, it would be inappropriate to use exclusively right-wing, as there is discussion of left-wing fascism. It is fair to say fascism is frequently from the right-wing, but left-wing fascism as a concept certainly exists in sources, at least, those sources that are fully appropriate as RSOPINION ones. --Masem (t) 21:10, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment Left-wing fascism has been used for fascist-like elements in nominally leftist regimes. The cited examples are the regimes of Juan Perón and Getúlio Vargas. As an ideology, Peronism mainly appeals to the working-classes, with promises of "social justice, economic independence and political sovereignty". But it is strictly authoritarian and nationalist in nature. Dimadick (talk) 17:33, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment As I mentioned below, the idea of Fascism as not-inherently-right-wing is derived from Third Position rhetoric, which is best described as a WP:FRINGE political belief. As Peron was actually one of the original proponents of this fringe political system we don't need to give that idea WP:UNDUE credence per WP:FRINGE. Simonm223 (talk) 17:46, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment Left-wing fascism has been used for fascist-like elements in nominally leftist regimes. The cited examples are the regimes of Juan Perón and Getúlio Vargas. As an ideology, Peronism mainly appeals to the working-classes, with promises of "social justice, economic independence and political sovereignty". But it is strictly authoritarian and nationalist in nature. Dimadick (talk) 17:33, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- More work to be done before this can be answered. In the meantime, oppose. The third sentence of the lead reads: "[F]ascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum," citing six sources not readily available on the Web. But in the "Definitions" section we have, "Most scholars place fascism on the far right of the political spectrum," citing the exact same sources. These two statements are mutually exclusive from a neutrality perspective. Either all non-fringe sources support the contention, in which case the first statement is a neutral summary, or only most of non-fringe sources support the contention, in which the second statement is a neutral summary. Someone needs to go through the sources cited in this article and answer the question, are there any non-fringe sources that say that fascism is not placed on the far right? Until that work is completed, I support the last stable version. By that logic, assuming petrachan47's timeline is accurate, I oppose this change. R2 (bleep) 21:48, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment - fascism is hard to define but I wouldn't permanently place it as a right-wing ideology. The most prominent personalities of Fascism such as Mussolini (the originator) and Hitler, arise actually from a National Socialism bent and that's why the debates. "Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state" - Benito Mussolini. Just my 2 cents.GizzyCatBella (talk) 01:10, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support — from the OED, Definition A:
"A nationalist political movement that controlled the government of Italy from 1922 to 1943 under the leadership of Benito Mussolini (1883–1945)... The movement grew out of the nationalist fasci which became prominent at the end of the First World War (1914–18), esp. with the formation of the militantly anti-communist and anti-socialist Fasci di Combattimento by Mussolini in 1919."
Definition B:"An authoritarian and nationalistic system of government and social organization which emerged after the end of the First World War in 1918, and became a prominent force in European politics during the 1920s and 1930s, most notably in Italy and Germany; (later also) an extreme right-wing political ideology based on the principles underlying this system... Fascism originated in Italy as an anti-communist and nationalist movement... After the defeat of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy in the Second World War (1939–45), Fascism ceased to be a significant political force, although subsequently (chiefly from the 1970s) a number of extreme right-wing nationalist parties have been founded in Europe and elsewhere on similar principles."
-Darouet (talk) 01:33, 7 March 2019 (UTC) - Support characterization as right-wing I don't think I've seen any serious scholarship characterize fascism as anything other than right-wing, and usage of "far-right" through most of the years since WWII has been close to synonymous with "neo-fascist"—fascism was essentially the defining example of the far right. National Socialism might've started out as a broad-based populist movement, but all the leftists and socialists were either murdered or purged by the time Hitler took power, leaving only the conservatives, reactionaries, and far right. I know less about fascism in Italy, but I think things were similar there, if less extreme. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 01:39, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment I think the definition sentence needs a total re-write. The problem is that it paraphrases the so-called "consensus theory" of fascism, without accepting that other definitions exist. I would prefer a description instead. "Fascist is a right-wing ideology and political movement originally developed by Mussolini in Italy that came to dominate Europe until its defeat in the Second World War. In recent years, a growing consensus has developed for its definition as...." TFD (talk) 03:58, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support. Honestly, I would find any source that does not agree with this to be questionable at best. However, I am not opposed to including a footnote clarifying that there is a vocal minority whom oppose the view that fascism can be viewed on a singlar right-left spectrum. (edit conflict) –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 04:02, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support. RS have a consensus on fascism="right-wing" . the "left wing fascism is a recent fringe position (coming from right-wing commentators) with no support from experts. Mussolini quit the socialists, rejected the left ideology and put its leaders in prison or exile. Hitler's "national socialism" was not rooted in Marxism. He imprisoned, exiled or killed all the socialist leaders. Rjensen (talk) 07:34, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support per, well, almost everyone above. Maybe a mention of the fringe theory, that needs further discussion. And perhaps we need to ensure that the point that User:Rjensen makes is also made in the article. I think it was only yesterday I reverted an IP whose argument was that the Nazis were socialist because the word socialist was in the party name. Doug Weller talk 11:04, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment "argument was that the Nazis were socialist because the word socialist was in the party name"... Socialist is in the party name, additionally National Socialism employed Keynesian economics, and was praised by Keynes, who stated that an authoritarian state could probably implement Keynesian economics most effectively [1]. Keynesian economics, government interference in markets, are widely considered left wing economics, Hitler employed this spending big on military and infrastructure. The state control of industry, famously the Volkswagen, but also nationalised 'Folk's radio' are hardly stalwart policies of the right wing. Hitler was not known for his Laissez Faire approach to the economy, or life in general! The state would even control leisure time, the individual had no real rights. [2] Societal good above individual rights is left wing ideology. One argument for right wing Nazi's is to describe destroying the status quo to build an imaginary better future as the Third Reich as 'social conservatism', it requires a pretty poor understanding of social conservatism. So Hitler calling himself a Socialist was not just because it would fool the populace of Germany, at the time, considered one of the more advanced political populations. National Sociialism is only right wing if you have never read the National Socialist Manifesto. [3] It is very short, and it's points are easily identifiable as either Nationalist or Socialist. National Socialism undisputably has many influences from the left, and cannot be described as purely Far Right in good faith. Eugenics was at the time a policy of the left, state control of reproduction [4] which led to some of the worst horrors of the Nazi regime. 82.15.160.19 (talk) 12:54, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support per what every reliable source says. // Liftarn (talk) 14:28, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support Characterizations of Fascism as anything other than right wing are ultimately derived from third positionist arguments that, as such, fail WP:FRINGE and WP:NPOV considerations. Simonm223 (talk) 16:23, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support It is a defining characteristic of Fascism. The sources agree well enough for this to be the overwhelming consensus view. (The thing called "left wing fascism", insofar as it is a real thing at all, is something else entirely.) The nuances are described later on in the article but this is not a murder-mystery novel where key facts are slowly revealed throughout the text. The first paragraph needs to provide the key identifying information upfront and this falls into that category. --DanielRigal (talk) 17:34, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support - long overdue; possibly the most heavily-cited fact in the entire article, due to the continuing effort by right-wing sources to deny it. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:06, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support - It always baffled me that this ever lacked something about the right wing in the lead sentence and whenever it was brought to discussion, there was always overwhelming agreement from editors. The right-wing nature of fascism is inherent to its definition, otherwise the first sentence could easily apply to Communist or other left-wing authoritarian philosophies, e.g. Stalinism. Wolfdog (talk) 23:44, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose - controversial articles require strict adherence to NPOV, and I'm concerned we haven't met that requirement. Fascism is too complex to simply say either the left or right own it. Also, without access to the cited books, it is difficult to satisfy WP:V. The article Left-wing fascism also has issues much the same as here. "Live Science" article "What is Fascism?" presents opposing views as does the following article in Vox which presents fascism in the modern world by Yale philosopher Jason Stanley. Another Vox article presents views of 5 fascism experts. There are equally as many or more secondary, third party and academic sources that dispute the fascist labeling presented in both WP articles. Potential RS include "Fascism: Comparison and Definition" (ISBN-13: 978-0299080648) and "A History of Fascism, 1914–1945" (ISBN-13: 978-0299148744), University of Wisconsin Press, author Stanley Payne; "The Nature of Fascism", Routledge, author Roger Griffin (ISBN-13: 978-0415096614). Atsme✍🏻📧 03:28, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- Adding See the lead in Definitions_of_fascism - the cited sources support that definition; one that holds true in numerous RS. Just Google it. There's also Left-wing fascism, and room for standalone articles about other forms of fascism, such as Right-wing fascism. Atsme 📣 📧 12:15, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- ^^Drmies^^ are we trying to change the ubiquitous definition of fascism? Webster, The Atlantic, Britannica, and on and on. Atsme 📣 📧 17:37, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- when you cite sources, read them closely. For example you cite "Live Science" and it rejects the one author who opposes use of left-right. Then Yale scholar Jason Stanley. is cited. He says in that cite: I think it’s clearly right-wing....fascism tilts pretty heavily to the right in my view. "Vox" is cited a second time but the article states: I found wide agreement among scholars that Golden Dawn, the far-right party in Greece that draws direct inspiration from the Nazis, is fairly described as fascist. Rjensen (talk) 17:36, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- When an author says, I think and in my view, we do not state it as fact in WikiVoice, rather we use intext attribution cited to the author. There are different scholarly views and it is our job as editors to include those views per NPOV. According to what this RfC stated, the material changes longstanding stable material, and it has been challenged as violative of NPOV. To incorrectly state as fact that nearly half the US population are fascists in WikiVoice is not good for the project. Atsme 📣 📧 12:37, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- "To incorrectly state as fact that nearly half the US population are fascists in WikiVoice is not good for the project." Where is anyone suggesting or even hinting at that? By saying fascism is a right wing ideology, no one calls anyone anything. No one is even implying that anyone right of center is a fascist. Just that the ideology itself is on the (far) right wing of the (flawed) left-right scale. And that is the overwhelming consensus among sources as well. Or am i somehow misunderstanding what you meant by that? I mean, saying communism is on the (far) left wing does not make the other half communists either. 91.248.142.3 (talk) 13:39, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- So, now you went on from random and illogicial assertions like the one here and from distorting a source like you did below to pointing to other Wikipedia articles? Please actually cite the sources themselves instead of telling us to google. You know Wikipedia is not reliable, and i won't waste time looking through the sources only for you to tell me i looked at the wrong one. Especially after the way you tried to twist the source you brought up below, it would be nice to see exactly what wording any reliable source has. This really is quite shocking overall, but i guess others are fine with these time wasting 'arguments', especially in the case of a borderline troll argument like calling fascism right-wing makes everyone right of center a fascist. Making such a ridiculous 'argument' in all seriousness really touches on competence is required... 37.138.235.128 (talk) 13:30, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- "To incorrectly state as fact that nearly half the US population are fascists in WikiVoice is not good for the project." Where is anyone suggesting or even hinting at that? By saying fascism is a right wing ideology, no one calls anyone anything. No one is even implying that anyone right of center is a fascist. Just that the ideology itself is on the (far) right wing of the (flawed) left-right scale. And that is the overwhelming consensus among sources as well. Or am i somehow misunderstanding what you meant by that? I mean, saying communism is on the (far) left wing does not make the other half communists either. 91.248.142.3 (talk) 13:39, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- When an author says, I think and in my view, we do not state it as fact in WikiVoice, rather we use intext attribution cited to the author. There are different scholarly views and it is our job as editors to include those views per NPOV. According to what this RfC stated, the material changes longstanding stable material, and it has been challenged as violative of NPOV. To incorrectly state as fact that nearly half the US population are fascists in WikiVoice is not good for the project. Atsme 📣 📧 12:37, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- when you cite sources, read them closely. For example you cite "Live Science" and it rejects the one author who opposes use of left-right. Then Yale scholar Jason Stanley. is cited. He says in that cite: I think it’s clearly right-wing....fascism tilts pretty heavily to the right in my view. "Vox" is cited a second time but the article states: I found wide agreement among scholars that Golden Dawn, the far-right party in Greece that draws direct inspiration from the Nazis, is fairly described as fascist. Rjensen (talk) 17:36, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support This is a given. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 09:38, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support, as this is the consensus of RS (and so verifiable and due), including those this article already cites. (I second Beyond My Ken's note that this RFC was a bit misleadingly written, in that it presented "right-wing" as an addition, but "right-wing" was already the description used in the lead, and it is the OP's proposal that it should perhaps be removed which would need consensus.) -sche (talk) 16:45, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment To clarify, OP does not propose that it be removed from the lead entirely only that it be removed from the first sentence ("definition"), which restore the article to the version which had been the consensus up until about a month ago, when "right-wing" was added to the first sentence.--MattMauler (talk) 18:08, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support, per WP:DUE. Should really be "far right". --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:04, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- Just follow WP:NPOV. Most, but not all, RS describe fascism as far-right. A minority describe it as left-wing or far-left. Here is the policy:Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts. If different reliable sources make conflicting assertions about a matter, treat these assertions as opinions rather than facts, and do not present them as direct statements.Adoring nanny (talk) 11:01, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- Are there really WP:RSs that claim that fascism is on the left, or WP:FRINGE sources? That's often the case when a minority of sources claim the complete opposite of the majority. Ian.thomson (talk) 12:24, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- Ian, your question is answered here, and in multiple scholarly sources. Adding academic text13:24, 9 March 2019 (UTC) Atsme 📣 📧 12:42, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- No reliable sources describe fascism as left-wing, although the belief is common in fringe far right literature. TFD (talk) 22:30, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- Atsme, you might want to reread that Britannica piece. It starts off by describing the many different views of fascism, but never once states that fascism is a leftist movement. In fact, throughout the whole piece it consistently refers to fascism as a right-wing movement, and says that the one major commonality between all fascist movements is their opposition to left-wing politics. Here's a few quotes:
Unlike left-wing populism, fascist populism did not attribute workers’ hardships to big business and big landowners and did not advocate measures such as progressive taxation, higher pay for industrial and farm workers, protection of unions, and the right to strike.
Partly because they made concerted appeals to young people, fascist parties tended to have younger members than most other rightist parties.
There were a few, usually small, fascist movements whose social and economic goals were left or left-centrist.... However, the economic programs of the great majority of fascist movements were extremely conservative, favouring the wealthy far more than the middle class and the working class. Their talk of national “socialism” was quite fraudulent in this respect. Although some workers were duped by it before the fascists came to power, most remained loyal to the traditional antifascist parties of the left.
- All in all, that's another good source supporting putting "right-wing" or "far right" in the lead.Red Rock Canyon (talk) 00:41, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)
I did a "find" to locate the quotes you say came from the Britannica article, "Common characteristics of fascist movements", and nothing came up. Where did those quotes originate?The Britannica begins with the following statement: There has been considerable disagreement among historians and political scientists about the nature of fascism. Some scholars, for example, regard it as a socially radical movement with ideological ties to the Jacobins of the French Revolution, whereas others see it as an extreme form of conservatism inspired by a 19th-century backlash against the ideals of the Enlightenment. We are seeing such disagreement now with justifiable challenges to the lead. Britannica further clarifies (my bold emphasis): Secular liberals, for example, have stressed fascism’s religious roots; Roman Catholic and Protestant scholars have emphasized its secular origins; social conservatives have pointed to its “socialist” and “populist” aspects; and social radicals have noted its defense of “capitalism” and “elitism.” For these and other reasons, there is no universally accepted definition of fascism. There are numerous other RS that corroborate the Britannica's encyclopedic information. Cherry picking material from RS to fit a certain narrative while omitting material that doesn't is neither helpful to our readers nor compliant with NPOV, which is why we summarize what the RS is saying.Atsme 📣 📧 04:38, 10 March 2019 (UTC)- I think you've noticed now that that article is 10 pages long. You might get a different impression if you actually read the whole thing instead of just the opening paragraph. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 05:09, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- I knew how long it was, I just thought the find feature was more advanced. It appears that while you've found material that supports your position, you missed important material that doesn't, such as - Neofascism - The postwar period to the end of the 20th century: Finally, the gradual acceptance of democratic norms by the vast majority of western Europeans reduced the appeal of authoritarian ideologies and required that neofascist parties make a concerted effort to portray themselves as democratic and “mainstream.” Some neofascists even included words like “democratic” and “liberal” in the titles of their movements. We should not omit important material that doesn't support our narrative, especially when the article starts off with there is no universal definition. It's surprising to me that consensus would support opinion and individual views - not statements of fact - for inclusion in the lead in WikiVoice, especially when it is justifiably challenged with supporting RS that clearly dispute such inclusion. I'm done here. Atsme 📣 📧 05:26, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- They are much closer to libertarianism than traditional conservatism. They privatized state companies and hired Ludwig von Mises as an economic adviser. But that does not make them left wing. TFD (talk) 07:54, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- So above your 'argument' is, in essence, that calling fascism right wing is calling everyone right of center a fascist while there is no logical connection between it. Here your argument is that fascism cannot be called right wing because a source says they portray themselves as 'democratic', among other things, in some cherry-picked parts of a text you have not even read in full. Keyword there is 'portray', fascist parties are not 'liberal' or 'democratic' but put on a guise of being so, big difference. So not even here does it claim what you want it to say. They portray themselves as such but actually are not. Quite frankly, i think both issues you raised are highly problematic. Just throwing nonsense up to get a result more suited to your own political beliefs (which i really cannot understand as you surely are not a fascist, but just a regular right of center person) So, what is the big issue to be defended here? Because with those ridiculous arguments it is obvious that is it not really about npov or what have you. 85.16.226.58 (talk) 09:37, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- They are much closer to libertarianism than traditional conservatism. They privatized state companies and hired Ludwig von Mises as an economic adviser. But that does not make them left wing. TFD (talk) 07:54, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- I knew how long it was, I just thought the find feature was more advanced. It appears that while you've found material that supports your position, you missed important material that doesn't, such as - Neofascism - The postwar period to the end of the 20th century: Finally, the gradual acceptance of democratic norms by the vast majority of western Europeans reduced the appeal of authoritarian ideologies and required that neofascist parties make a concerted effort to portray themselves as democratic and “mainstream.” Some neofascists even included words like “democratic” and “liberal” in the titles of their movements. We should not omit important material that doesn't support our narrative, especially when the article starts off with there is no universal definition. It's surprising to me that consensus would support opinion and individual views - not statements of fact - for inclusion in the lead in WikiVoice, especially when it is justifiably challenged with supporting RS that clearly dispute such inclusion. I'm done here. Atsme 📣 📧 05:26, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- I think you've noticed now that that article is 10 pages long. You might get a different impression if you actually read the whole thing instead of just the opening paragraph. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 05:09, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)
- Atsme, you might want to reread that Britannica piece. It starts off by describing the many different views of fascism, but never once states that fascism is a leftist movement. In fact, throughout the whole piece it consistently refers to fascism as a right-wing movement, and says that the one major commonality between all fascist movements is their opposition to left-wing politics. Here's a few quotes:
- Are there really WP:RSs that claim that fascism is on the left, or WP:FRINGE sources? That's often the case when a minority of sources claim the complete opposite of the majority. Ian.thomson (talk) 12:24, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment: Been lurking, but I'll weigh in: I absolutely agree that fascism should be described as right-wing. Whether this means that that characterization should appear in the very first sentence or later in the lead I see as far less important (which is why I'm not a clear "support" or "oppose" vote for the current discussion). I think the 2014 wording above in the timeline that OP provided would be unacceptable, injecting unnecessary ambiguity not reflective of RS, which overwhelmingly describe fascism as right-wing. Either one of the last two versions would be acceptable, I think.--MattMauler (talk) 13:08, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- It is pretty sad we're having to have this conversation. The sources (and common sense, and historians, etc.) say fascism is a right-wing thing. Of course that doesn't mean all right-wingers are fascists--but it seems that people take offense at this well-established characterization out of a. a desire to be right-wing but not associated with fascism or b. a desperate attempt to smear the other side, in some kind of false equivalency. The sources quibble (Stone, "The Myth of Left-Wing Authoritarianism" and the response by Eysenck, "Left-Wing Authoritarianism: Myth or Reality?") over how to deal with left-wing authoritarianism, but just as "right-wing" does not equal "fascism", neither does "authoritarianism". So since so many people seem to doubt the blueness of the sky, and since sea lions are today's favorite animals, put it prominently in the lead. Drmies (talk) 18:00, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment also. We don't have to say everything in the lede sentence, and there's no real reason to add right-wing. Lede sentences cannot use nuances, and this makes them hard to write--the best course for anything complicated -- even if not disputed or controversial is to make them as bland as possible. But of our recent disputes over lead sentence wording, this is one I do not feel strongly about either way: calling it right-wing even without going into details and exceptions is close enough, and it matches almost all sources. And as I personally understand it, the major political group of common knowledge and historical importance has always been extreme right and proud of it, except for some tendencies in its early history--I suspect Mussolini did not really know where he was going at first. But this can be discussed later in the article. (And I do think some of the emphasis on calling it right-wing is the possibly unrecognized desire to associate all right wing movements with Fascism. Again, that is indeed the way I personally think of them, in my personal view, but wording it for that purpose is not NPOV. ) DGG ( talk ) 04:37, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- But DGG, it's both true and relevant--if it weren't relevant, we wouldn't be having this huge red banner saying "Fascism is a right wing ideology" on this here talk page. As for nuance--surely everyone understands that "Fascism is a right-wing ideology" doesn't mean "all right-wing ideologies are fascist" or something like that. And if they do believe that the one means the other, Wikipedia probably can't help them. Neither Socialism nor Communism proclaim "left wing" in the lead, but they also don't need to, given the absence of the huge red label on the talk page, and the absence of some swell of pundits placing socialism on the right. Drmies (talk) 17:04, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose just right-wing and mention left-wing roots of Italian fascism. Harvard University professor Richard Pipes in Russia Under The Bolshevik Regime (1994, p. 253):
Given the opportunity, Mussolini would have been glad as late as 1920-21 to take under his wing the Italian Communists, for whom he felt great affinities: greater, certainly, than for democratic socialists, liberals and conservatives. Genetically, Fascism issued from the 'Bolshevik' wing of Italian socialism, not from any conservative ideology or movement.
--Pudeo (talk) 08:38, 12 March 2019 (UTC)- I don't think that a cherry-picked comment from a controversial Cold War book which provides no sources meets the requirements of weight. Certainly there have been thousands of books written about fascism and tens of thousands of articles. This is after all from the same professor who notoriously overestimated Soviet military strength. Mussolini incidentally was never a Bolshevik. TFD (talk) 14:15, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Furthermore, despite Pipes' very particular [1] (among other things, right-wing) historiographical approach, Fascism is almost always defined as anti-socialist and especially anti-communist. Hence the text from the OED I provided above:
"...militantly anti-communist and anti-socialist..."
-Darouet (talk) 20:07, 12 March 2019 (UTC)- History books can be argumentative and it does not make them any more less RS. Indeed, Pipes argues that "left historians" present fascism as a polar opposite of communism for ideological reasons. Pipes was a part of the "Soviet-slaying" totalitarian school of history and his views were most prominently opposed by the "revisionist school" of Soviet studies. UC Berkeley political science professor A. James Gregor also contends in The Faces of Janus: Marxism and Fascism in the Twentieth Century (2000, p. 20) that
Fascists were almost all Marxists—serious theorists who had long been identified with Italy's intelligentsia of the Left
which is obviously based in facts like Mussolini being the editor of the Avanti! party newspaper and indeed, the leading figure of the radical left wing of the party. As Rjensen has stated, Mussolini did denounce Marxism and shifted his positions a lot after 1921, but I think we're being dishonest if we completely omit the socialist roots in the lead. What makes it more complex that modern or 'generic' fascism is not the same as Italian fascism from which the term comes from, and 'fascism' and 'Nazism' are used as synonyms. --Pudeo (talk) 09:53, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
- History books can be argumentative and it does not make them any more less RS. Indeed, Pipes argues that "left historians" present fascism as a polar opposite of communism for ideological reasons. Pipes was a part of the "Soviet-slaying" totalitarian school of history and his views were most prominently opposed by the "revisionist school" of Soviet studies. UC Berkeley political science professor A. James Gregor also contends in The Faces of Janus: Marxism and Fascism in the Twentieth Century (2000, p. 20) that
- Furthermore, despite Pipes' very particular [1] (among other things, right-wing) historiographical approach, Fascism is almost always defined as anti-socialist and especially anti-communist. Hence the text from the OED I provided above:
- Support right wing in lead / oppose left wing in lead—the former a commonplace among the sources, the latter a particularism. ——SerialNumber54129 13:24, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose right-wing in lead: while I'm not disputing that fascism is a far-right movement, does this really need to be in the lead -- for that matter, the first sentence? Socialism and communism are far-left, but neither of those articles contain that information in the first sentence. But if the description does wind up getting changed, I'd rather it read far-right than just simply right-wing, as even most right-wingers would agree that fascism is an extreme movement. Highway 89 (talk) 15:43, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support right-wing in lead and oppose left-wing as a highly exceptional use. Fascism is to right-wing what communism is to left-wing. They are both the outer fringes on their wings of the political spectrum. Not everyone who is left-wing is a socialist or communist, just as not everyone who is right-wing is a nazi or fascist. They are minority elements on the fringe, albeit very loud and notable. Keep in mind that people on the same wing can be mortal enemies, such as socialists and communists, who fought each other to the death in Europe. They hate each other, even though they are both left-wing. Most people do not tend to slide toward the fringe and become extremists. They find their place on a wing and tend to defend it. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 21:06, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Left wing fascism RS [5] Clearly states that Fascist Movement in UK was left wing, or derived from mainly left wing ideology. As such description of Fascism as right wing is inaccurate. THere are multiple sources and many reasons to conclude that Fascism formed from Socialist ideals. It is certainly impossible to argue that Fascism has anything in common with right wing laissez faire Capitalism, Fascism is almost certainly an extreme left wing version of "society above the individual' and 'big government setting up cartels for business'. Arguably Fascism is steeped in left wing idealism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.160.19 (talk) 11:57, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
- Did you read what that source actually says? It specifically states that 1. left-wing fascism is a contradiction in terms, 2. they were nonetheless able to use left-wing rhetoric as a tool to recruit working-class membership, but only up until it was contradicted by their actions, and 3. any genuine left-wing sympathizers within the movement were ultimately purged. All of this is clear from the abstract. --Aquillion (talk) 18:10, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support: The Oxford English Dictionary defines fascism as
An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
They have to condense this entire article into one sentence (that being essentially what a dictionary entry is) and they chose to include the words "right-wing system of government." --Puzzledvegetable (talk) 19:45, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose: The sources indicate that fascism is an offshoot of Marxism, but that it includes some right-wing elements. So, it's more left-wing than it is right-wing, although it does appear to be a mix of both. It would be more accurate if the intro paragraph explained in that way. AppliedCharisma (talk) 15:09, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- "Offshoot of Marxism"? Really? Reliable sources say absolutely nothing of the sort. Even the Fascist propagandists who sought to pass Fascism (or, more commonly, Nazism) off as a form of "socialism" went to great lengths to stress that it was not a Marxist sort of Socialism, as they hated Marx and Marxism with a violent and absolute fury. I'm not aware of anybody who seriously thinks that Fascism is an actual offshoot of Marxism, even among those who claim similarities and are strongly opposed to both. --DanielRigal (talk) 17:07, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support including the term "right-wing" in the first sentence. Fascism is right-wing (or to be more exact, far-right) effectively by definition. The term "far-right" is used by RS in political science precisely to refer to fascist movements and those similar to them. That is what the concept means. Of course not the entire far-right is fascist (let alone the entire right-wing half of the political spectrum), but the concept of a "far-right" always includes fascism as one of its components. The line between fascism in particular and the far-right in general is blurry, and most RS go back and forth between the concepts of "fascism" and "far-right" without drawing a sharp distinction (when a line is drawn, it tends to be around the use of violence for political ends and open support for dictatorship). RS that use terms like "far-right", "extreme right" or "radical right" to refer to fascism include almost every single major scholarly work on fascism. Here are only a few quick examples that I found by just looking through my bookshelf:
- Stanley Payne, in A History of Fascism: 1914-1945 (1996), places fascism in the context of the "radical right" and the "conservative right" in interwar Europe, arguing that fascism was close to the radical right and distant from the conservative right.
- Robert Paxton, in The Anatomy of Fascism (2004), switches between the terms "fascist", "far right" and "radical right" in labeling political movements - for example Action Française in the interwar period (chapter 3, pp. 68-73). In the section with the title "Is Fascism still possible?" (chapter 7), he talks about post-WWII movements that could potentially lead to a fascist revival and consistently refers to them as "far right" or "radical right" (e.g. "Finally, a whole universe of fragmented radical Right 'grouplets' proliferated, keeping alive a great variety of far Right themes and practices" - pp. 173).
- Kevin Passmore, in Fascism: A Very Short Introduction (2002), uses the term "extreme right" to refer to a category of politics that includes fascism but is not limited to it. (e.g. "There have, of course, been many movements that have espoused some features of fascism and not others. Some of these can usefully be seen as belonging to a wider category of extreme right movements" -- pp. 24)
- John Weiss, in The Fascist Tradition: Radical Right-wing Extremism in Modern Europe (1967), identifies fascism as a type of radical right-wing extremism (obviously, as the title implies).
- Elisabeth Carter, in The Extreme Right in Western Europe (2005), talks about... well, about the extreme right in Western Europe, and includes fascist, neo-fascist and post-fascist movements in it.
- Paul Hainsworth, in The Extreme Right in Europe and the USA (1992), also goes through a number of political movements labeled "extreme right" and also includes fascism and its legacy among them.
- Really, pick any book that labels itself a survey of the "extreme right", "far right" or "radical right", and you will find that it covers fascists, among others. So, to reiterate: The extreme right is the political family that contains fascism and its close relatives. That is how nearly all RS use these terms. To exclude fascism from the category of "extreme right" would be like excluding the first Roman Emperors from the category of emperors, on the grounds that the principate was different in many ways from a standard monarchy. Of course fascism is different from other types of right-wing politics, and is even different from other parts of the far-right. But fascism is also different from other types of nationalism, and that doesn't stop us from saying in the first sentence that fascism is nationalist. Members of the Scottish National Party are referred to as "nationalists" too (for example), and the difference between the SNP and fascist movements is vast. If we can call fascism nationalist despite the existence of other, vastly different nationalists, then we can also call fascism right-wing despite the existence of other, vastly different right-wing movements. -- Damoclus (talk) 15:00, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
- Support per definition and large number of RS in the article and this discussion. O3000 (talk) 14:09, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose largely on what User:Atsme wrote and because sources conflict, also left-wing fascism exists and traditional fascism appears to be a toxic mix of both left-wing socialist ideas of government with right wing extremist ideas.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 02:36, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- Comment Winston Churchill is more than an adequate source of the historical definition of fascism, he lived through its rise and fall in Europe, in his book "the gathering storm" he directly links fascism to its communist origins "As Fascism SPRANG from Communism, so Nazism developed from Fascism. Thus were set on foot those KINDRED movements which were destined to plunge the world into more hideous strife." So the issue is better understood without the term right wing being applied.Cite error: There are
<ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevin.cook.1988 (talk • contribs) 12:28, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Note that recent, scholarly sourcess are preferred as RS; Churchill on fascism is neither. Newimpartial (talk) 12:48, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Elsewhere he wrote, "If I were Italian, I am sure I would have been with you entirely from the beginning of your victorious struggle against the bestial appetites and passion of Leninism. … Your movement has rendered a service to the whole world....It has been said that a continual movement to the Left, a kind of fatal landslide toward the abyss, has been the character of all revolutions. Italy has shown that there is a way to combat subversive forces." He also thought that Communism was created by the Jews. But even if we were to accept these views, your quote is not a definition. TFD (talk) 16:42, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Support - Generally speaking it is right-wing. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 14:49, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Support, because the preponderance of reliable sources describe it in this manner. This is quite evident when skimming the first few pages of this google scholar search, as well as the sources used in this article. The arguments in opposition here are generally very poor; they are putting forward personal opinion (whereas the views of reliable sources are all that counts), or indulging in original research (that Fascism had links to Marxism is quite irrelevant; what matters is how sources define the term today). Vanamonde (Talk) 21:26, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose- Not everything is linear. Fascism can be either right-wing or left-wing. We don't get to redefine the word.--Rusf10 (talk) 03:46, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
- That's true. We should follow the reliable sources, which define it as right-wing.Newimpartial (talk) 19:29, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
- The problem with your argument of course is that not all reliable sources define it as right wing and consider it controversial. See atsme’s post above.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 13:39, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
- Comment: WP:OTHERSTUFF-type arguments based on the fact that an article called Left-wing fascism exists (which incidentally states, "Fascism has historically been considered a far-right ideology") should have absolutely no bearing on how to define this topic; we should simply go by what the most reliable sources state. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 01:50, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
- Support right-wing. Fascism contains extreme levels of social control, making it a right wing ideology. Furthermore, I support reverting on sight any talkpage requests to change it to left-wing as it is disruptive. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 20:45, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please remove the "radical, right-wing" from the general definition of Fascism
Fascism is not "right winged". Fascists can lean "far left" as well. Using vague and hard to define political party terms in the general definition of the term "fascism" is extremely irresponsible and wrong. Please remove the "right winged" from the definition. You could also remove "radical" as well, seeing as that is more of an opinion than a key general definition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.38.44.164 (talk) 18:12, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
- Already discussed. There are btw no far left fascists any more than there are far right communists. TFD (talk) 18:15, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
- How true. I find it hard to imagine that the "far left" (socialists and communists) would be in alliance with, and happy support of the big capitalists in their countries. They are, pretty much by definition, enemies. The alliance of the right wing, fascists, and capitalists is obvious. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 18:18, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
- The more I look into this, the more I am convinced that we have made a grave error by adding "right wing" to the definition. It is not supported by reliable sources, which actually support its immediate removal.
- From Centrism in Italian politics (PDF Cambridge.org
- Underlying the thinking of all centrists is a refusal to side with either of two opposed alternatives conceived of in spatial terms as positions lying on either side of the one occupied by the centrist position itself. This is true whatever the substantive content of the positions we are talking about. Thus, within the Marxist political movement, ‘centrists’ were those whose ideological outlooks reflected a position between the revolutionary and the reformist. Fascism, too, sought to establish its credentials as a centrist force, claiming to offer a ‘thirdway’ between communism and liberalism. Mark Donovan & James L. Newell (2008) Centrism in Italian politics, ModernItaly, 13:4, 381-397, DOI: 10.1080/13532940802367554
- From Centrism in Italian politics (PDF Cambridge.org
- From Live Science
- Fascism is a complex ideology. There are many definitions of fascism; some people describe it as a type or set of political actions, a political philosophy or a mass movement. Most definitions agree that fascism is authoritarian and promotes nationalism at all costs, but its basic characteristics are a matter of debate. (Nowhere in the article is "right wing" mentioned.) The cite from was written by "Jessie Szalay is a contributing writer for Live Science. She covers animals, health and other general science topics." -- not a RS
- From Live Science
- The distillation of all that I've seen is: there is no simple definition of fascism. The only accurate description would include nuance, and lots of it. It does not lend itself well to a one-liner (such as the first sentence of the Lede). Even with the nuance required to summarize WP:RS, using "right wing" as a descriptor does not have support. As I mentioned in the RfC, WP's counterparts Britannica and Merriam Webster, uphold my contention: Britannica does not mention "right" in their Lede paragraph; Merriam Webster does not mention "right" whatsoever. The Simple English Wikipedia also makes no mention of "right". What they have in common, as did en.Wikipedia prior to the very recent change, is nuance. There are articles devoted to the fact that "fascism" is not easy to define, yet we are here defending the idea that it is easy, that we have done what scholars could not? petrarchan47คุก 02:20, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- Sometimes you just have to look harder. (1) Webster unabridged dictionary includes "fascism" under the definition of "right wing." (2) Encyclopaedia Britannica does not use it in the lede but does use "right" a lot: eg "During the Great Depression, thousands of middle-class conservatives fearful of the growing power of the left abandoned traditional right-wing parties and adopted fascism. The ideological distance traveled from traditional conservatism to Nazism was sometimes small, since many of the ideas that Hitler exploited in the 1930s had long been common currency within the German right." (3) The Cambridge advanced learner's dictionary defines "fascist" as "a person of the far right in politics". (4) The quotation above from Live Science was written by "Jessie Szalay is a contributing writer for Live Science. She covers animals, health and other general science topics." -- she has a degree in nonfiction writing and is not a very reliable source. (5) The quote from 'Centrism in Italian politics' is about how the fascists positioned themselves in Italian politics before they power, and does not deal with how reliable sources position them in political history in 2019. Rjensen (talk) 07:50, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- It sure isn't easy to define Fascism, and that is actually my entire point. I don't believe any of what you've said justifies the addition to the lede sentence. petrarchan47คุก 01:10, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Fascists have only come to power with the support of the Right and never with the support of the Left. Mussolini led the National List, which included other right-wing parties. Hitler went into coaltion with the Conservative Party. Their main opposition were Socialist Democrats and Communists. Center parties on the other hand, frequently form coaltions with either the Left or the Right. That's actually the origin of the left-right concept, that political parties would seat themselves in the legislature closest to the parties with which they were most likely to cooperate. Hence the fascists are far right. There are no examples of centrists working with fascists to the exclusion of parties on the left or right. The centrist Liberal Democrats in the UK for example would find more common ground with either the Conservatives on the right or Labour on the left than they would with the far right British National Party. TFD (talk) 12:51, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- It's incredibly nuanced, like our previous definition. I appreciate you and your comment. I don't know how it would help with content creation, as we have to rely on outside sources which don't agree that Fascism neatly fits into the "right". The previous version of our Lede paragraph allowed for the fact that not all scholars refer to the "right-left paradigm". I'd be interested in seeing this article include a balanced overview of all reliable sources. It is possible though that the subject creates too much emotion for the majority of editors to remain neutral. This wasn't the case during the Obama years, when we didn't hear the word so often, and I maintain that this article was much more encyclopedic then. Without the emotional charge, Wikipedians in prior years did not argue that it is "right wing", but followed what the sources say - which is that not all scholars agree and that it's not easy or simple to define. So they chose not to create a simplified definition. petrarchan47คุก 01:10, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Sometimes you just have to look harder. (1) Webster unabridged dictionary includes "fascism" under the definition of "right wing." (2) Encyclopaedia Britannica does not use it in the lede but does use "right" a lot: eg "During the Great Depression, thousands of middle-class conservatives fearful of the growing power of the left abandoned traditional right-wing parties and adopted fascism. The ideological distance traveled from traditional conservatism to Nazism was sometimes small, since many of the ideas that Hitler exploited in the 1930s had long been common currency within the German right." (3) The Cambridge advanced learner's dictionary defines "fascist" as "a person of the far right in politics". (4) The quotation above from Live Science was written by "Jessie Szalay is a contributing writer for Live Science. She covers animals, health and other general science topics." -- she has a degree in nonfiction writing and is not a very reliable source. (5) The quote from 'Centrism in Italian politics' is about how the fascists positioned themselves in Italian politics before they power, and does not deal with how reliable sources position them in political history in 2019. Rjensen (talk) 07:50, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- The distillation of all that I've seen is: there is no simple definition of fascism. The only accurate description would include nuance, and lots of it. It does not lend itself well to a one-liner (such as the first sentence of the Lede). Even with the nuance required to summarize WP:RS, using "right wing" as a descriptor does not have support. As I mentioned in the RfC, WP's counterparts Britannica and Merriam Webster, uphold my contention: Britannica does not mention "right" in their Lede paragraph; Merriam Webster does not mention "right" whatsoever. The Simple English Wikipedia also makes no mention of "right". What they have in common, as did en.Wikipedia prior to the very recent change, is nuance. There are articles devoted to the fact that "fascism" is not easy to define, yet we are here defending the idea that it is easy, that we have done what scholars could not? petrarchan47คุก 02:20, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- The arguments supporting fascism as a right wing ideology are simply not convincing. We would have to change the definition of right wing to make it fit - round peg in a square hole - and that doesn't count the variations of right vs left relative to the interpretations of individual academics, historians, and the prevailing views of the general population in each country. We have an article on Left-wing fascism. There are far too many elements involved to stereotype fascism as either right or left. It is what it is, and it's fascism. Sadly, it's highly unlikely this article will ever be stable as long as contentious material remains in the lead. Happy editing! Atsme Talk 📧 01:45, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- It's not that nuanced. The screaming fanatic in the MAGA hat for example railing about the deep state, the elites and the banksters, while bearing a superficial resemblance to populists on the left, is still on the right. (Go ask him.) TFD (talk) 03:48, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- And how do you classify the screaming fanatics wearing black hoods yelling death to cops or celebrities spewing hatred like the one holding a decapitated head, or another who wanted to blow up the white house? What about the Berkeley riots (again, black hoods) and violence on college campuses, and the radical calls to change the US Constitution and electoral college, or the college administrators refusing to allow free speech by prohibiting certain speakers? When different parties are involved opposition is inevitable, and one party is almost always going to dislike or even hate the other. Resistence to Bush and Obama was far less violent than what we've seen of late. In a nutshell, there is no cut and dried definition of fascism. The definition most people will support is the one that aligns closest to their own. Fascism is its own ideology with different elements mixed in, and I'm of the mind that it is as wrong to stereotype fascism as either right or left as it is to stereotype "protests" in that same manner. Atsme Talk 📧 14:25, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- You classify those in your first sentence as anarchists -- the opposite of fascists. After that, sorry, but you appear to have just posted some unconnected thoughts. O3000 (talk) 14:43, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- The screaming fanatics in black are anarchists, which puts them on the far left. In fact, there are a number of videos of anarchists physically attacking people in MAGA hats. Kathy Griffin is a Clinton supporter, wherever that falls in the political spectrum, it's not on the far right. Whether right-wing, centrist or left-wing supporters are more violent is irrelevant to this discussion. TFD (talk) 16:36, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Exactly, and that's why we go with what RS say, and the widespread opinion is that fascism is difficult to define because it includes both right & left wing elements. Later folks. Atsme Talk 📧 21:05, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Fascist: “A person of right-wing authoritarian views” – Oxford English Dictionary. This has been the definition for decades. It was derived from Fascista, a body of Italian nationalists formed to combat Communism. O3000 (talk) 21:40, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Nope:
- "Just as Marxists, liberals, and conservatives differed within and between various countries, so too did fascists." Britannica
- "Fascist: often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition." Merriam-Webster
- We look at the widespread definitions - not just the Oxford which is only one definition. The more variables brought forward only serves to prove the point that it cannot be defined as either right or left. Atsme Talk 📧 22:21, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Except that none of these "widespread definitions" actually denies that fascism pertains to the right or asserts that it belongs to the left. For this argument to be relevant, there would have to be actual, reliable sources disputing the attribution of fascism to the right, not merely sources that are silent on the matter. Newimpartial (talk) 00:40, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Perception. Atsme Talk 📧 04:54, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- The first quotation is comparing fascists with "Marxists, liberals, and conservatives" only in the sense that they all had regional/national differences. Well, so does barbecue. That doesn't mean that barbecue is Marxist, liberal, or whatever. (Did Marxism and liberalism also include "acceptance of racism" and "identification with Christianity"?) The second quotation doesn't contradict the OED definition, and in fact defines fascism using qualities of right-wing politics such as nationalism, hierarchicalism, and authoritarianism. (I think we'd give greater weight to the OED over Webster's in any case.) —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 02:40, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
- "identification with Christianity" Britannica emphasized the Christian identity of the fascist movement and its opposition to atheists and humanists.:
- The first quotation is comparing fascists with "Marxists, liberals, and conservatives" only in the sense that they all had regional/national differences. Well, so does barbecue. That doesn't mean that barbecue is Marxist, liberal, or whatever. (Did Marxism and liberalism also include "acceptance of racism" and "identification with Christianity"?) The second quotation doesn't contradict the OED definition, and in fact defines fascism using qualities of right-wing politics such as nationalism, hierarchicalism, and authoritarianism. (I think we'd give greater weight to the OED over Webster's in any case.) —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 02:40, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
- Perception. Atsme Talk 📧 04:54, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Except that none of these "widespread definitions" actually denies that fascism pertains to the right or asserts that it belongs to the left. For this argument to be relevant, there would have to be actual, reliable sources disputing the attribution of fascism to the right, not merely sources that are silent on the matter. Newimpartial (talk) 00:40, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Nope:
- Fascist: “A person of right-wing authoritarian views” – Oxford English Dictionary. This has been the definition for decades. It was derived from Fascista, a body of Italian nationalists formed to combat Communism. O3000 (talk) 21:40, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- Exactly, and that's why we go with what RS say, and the widespread opinion is that fascism is difficult to define because it includes both right & left wing elements. Later folks. Atsme Talk 📧 21:05, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- And how do you classify the screaming fanatics wearing black hoods yelling death to cops or celebrities spewing hatred like the one holding a decapitated head, or another who wanted to blow up the white house? What about the Berkeley riots (again, black hoods) and violence on college campuses, and the radical calls to change the US Constitution and electoral college, or the college administrators refusing to allow free speech by prohibiting certain speakers? When different parties are involved opposition is inevitable, and one party is almost always going to dislike or even hate the other. Resistence to Bush and Obama was far less violent than what we've seen of late. In a nutshell, there is no cut and dried definition of fascism. The definition most people will support is the one that aligns closest to their own. Fascism is its own ideology with different elements mixed in, and I'm of the mind that it is as wrong to stereotype fascism as either right or left as it is to stereotype "protests" in that same manner. Atsme Talk 📧 14:25, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- It's not that nuanced. The screaming fanatic in the MAGA hat for example railing about the deep state, the elites and the banksters, while bearing a superficial resemblance to populists on the left, is still on the right. (Go ask him.) TFD (talk) 03:48, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- The arguments supporting fascism as a right wing ideology are simply not convincing. We would have to change the definition of right wing to make it fit - round peg in a square hole - and that doesn't count the variations of right vs left relative to the interpretations of individual academics, historians, and the prevailing views of the general population in each country. We have an article on Left-wing fascism. There are far too many elements involved to stereotype fascism as either right or left. It is what it is, and it's fascism. Sadly, it's highly unlikely this article will ever be stable as long as contentious material remains in the lead. Happy editing! Atsme Talk 📧 01:45, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- "Most fascist movements portrayed themselves as defenders of Christianity and the traditional Christian family against atheists and amoral humanists. This was true of Catholic fascist movements in Poland, Spain, Portugal, France, Austria, Hungary, Croatia, Bolivia, Argentina, Chile, and Brazil. In Romania, Codreanu said he wanted to model his life after the crucified Christ of the Orthodox church, and his Legion of the Archangel Michael, a forerunner of the Iron Guard, officially called for “faith in God” and “love for each other.” "
- "In France, Valois, Taittinger, Renaud, Bucard, and La Rocque were all Catholics, and Doriot, previously an atheist, appealed to Catholic sentiments after he became a fascist. Although Maurras was an agnostic, he defended the Catholic church as a pillar of social order, and there were many Catholics among his followers. The fascist intellectual Robert Brasillach described the Spanish Civil War as a conflict between Catholic fascism and atheistic Marxism. Drieu La Rochelle rejected liberal Catholicism but praised the “virile, male Catholicism” of the Middle Ages and the “warrior Christianity of the Crusades.” "
- "Although fascists in Germany and Italy also posed as protectors of the church, their ideologies contained many elements that conflicted with traditional Christian beliefs, and their policies were sometimes opposed by church leaders. The Nazis criticized the Christian ideals of meekness and guilt on the grounds that they repressed the violent instincts necessary to prevent inferior races from dominating Aryans. Martin Bormann, the second most powerful official in the Nazi Party after 1941, argued that Nazi and Christian beliefs were “incompatible,” primarily because the essential elements of Christianity were “taken over from Judaism.” Bormann’s views were shared by Hitler, who ultimately wished to replace Christianity with a racist form of warrior paganism. Although Hitler was cautious about dangerously alienating Christians during World War II, he sometimes permitted Nazi officials to put pressure on Protestant and Catholic parents to remove their children from religious classes and to register them for ideological instruction instead. In the Nazi schools charged with training Germany’s future elite, Christian prayers were replaced with Teutonic rituals and sun-worship ceremonies."
- "Despite the many anti-Christian elements in Nazism, the vast majority of Nazis considered themselves to be religious, and most German anti-Semites supported Christianity purged of its “Jewish” elements. The pro-Nazi German Christians, who were part of the Lutheran church in Germany, held that Christ had been a blond-haired, blue-eyed Aryan, and male members called themselves “SS men for Christ.” In many German families children began their prayers before meals with the phrase, “Führer, my Führer, bequeathed to me by the Lord.” "
- "In Italy, Mussolini signed a concordat with the papacy, the Lateran Treaty (1929), which, among other things, made Roman Catholicism the state religion of Italy and mandated the teaching of Catholic doctrine in all public primary and secondary schools. Later, many practicing Catholics joined the conservative wing of the Fascist Party. In 1931, however, Pope Pius XI issued an encyclical, Non abbiamo bisogno, that denounced fascism’s “pagan worship of the State” and its “revolution which snatches the young from the Church and from Jesus Christ, and which inculcates in its own young people hatred, violence and irreverence.” Although many Italian fascists remained Catholic, the regime’s mystique contained pagan elements that glorified the spirit of ancient Rome and the military virtues of its soldiers."
- Business as usual for Christians to oppress and persecute other people, but this Christian identity says nothing about their position in the political spectrum. Christianity comprises a large number of political movements, from conservative Christian democracy to leftist Christian socialism and Christian communism. Dimadick (talk) 08:30, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
- look at the right-wing options Dictionary of Modern Political Ideologies Page 67 by Michael A. Riff - 1990: gives the context here: The right wing' in a country may well consist of strongly conflicting elements — laisser-faire liberals, anti-Communists, authoritarians, monarchists, jingoes. Fascism (see FASCISM) is certainly a 'right wing' political creed Rjensen (talk) 05:16, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Look at the left-wing and no-wing options beginning with Left-wing fascism. Rjensen, I'm not challenging the existence of your sources and published opinions that support your POV. I agree with you in that regard. My argument is simply that other sources exist with opposing opinions and different views about what defines fascism. Zeev Sternhell authored "Neither Right Nor Left" (Princeton, 1995). Another definition for the economics of fascism is that it's "socialism with a capitalist veneer" ("The Library of Economics and Liberty"), and on and on ad nauseam. The opposing RS and contentious debate over the varying opinions of academics, historians and researchers are the reason the proposed right wing definition in the lede, in Wikivoice, is noncompliant with NPOV; i.e., the sources cited support a single definition among many, which makes it POV. I see our job as editors to include all significant views, not focus on one POV over another. With regards to the above RfC, keep in mind that NPOV policy states: This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus. Atsme Talk 📧 14:03, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- As I pointed out above, although Sternhell called his book Neither Left nor Right: Fascist Ideology in France, he clearly refers to it as the "revolutionary right," distinct from legitimism, orleanism and bonapartism, but nonetheless part of the Right. And he points out that the Right evolves and survives by taking ideas from the Left. (As I pointed out, so has the Trump movement.) Your other source, that calls fascism "socialism with a capitalist veneer" is not reliable. The author, Sheldon Richman is a journalist and contributor to libertarian sites who as far as I know has no relevant academic qualifications and is not published in peer-reviewed academic journals and holds a number of questionable views. In conclusion, no reliable sources exist with opposing opinions. TFD (talk) 18:25, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- In doing the research and reliable sources, I recommend going beyond the title of books and actually looking at some of the contents. This is possible thanks to Google and Amazon. As TFD points out, Sternhell insists that French fascism is based in the right. He states it explicitly on page 1: "It was in France that the radical right soonest acquired the essential characteristics of fascism." Read Zeev Sternhell (1996). Neither Right Nor Left: Fascist Ideology in France. Princeton UP. p. 1. Rjensen (talk) 19:09, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- As I pointed out above, although Sternhell called his book Neither Left nor Right: Fascist Ideology in France, he clearly refers to it as the "revolutionary right," distinct from legitimism, orleanism and bonapartism, but nonetheless part of the Right. And he points out that the Right evolves and survives by taking ideas from the Left. (As I pointed out, so has the Trump movement.) Your other source, that calls fascism "socialism with a capitalist veneer" is not reliable. The author, Sheldon Richman is a journalist and contributor to libertarian sites who as far as I know has no relevant academic qualifications and is not published in peer-reviewed academic journals and holds a number of questionable views. In conclusion, no reliable sources exist with opposing opinions. TFD (talk) 18:25, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Look at the left-wing and no-wing options beginning with Left-wing fascism. Rjensen, I'm not challenging the existence of your sources and published opinions that support your POV. I agree with you in that regard. My argument is simply that other sources exist with opposing opinions and different views about what defines fascism. Zeev Sternhell authored "Neither Right Nor Left" (Princeton, 1995). Another definition for the economics of fascism is that it's "socialism with a capitalist veneer" ("The Library of Economics and Liberty"), and on and on ad nauseam. The opposing RS and contentious debate over the varying opinions of academics, historians and researchers are the reason the proposed right wing definition in the lede, in Wikivoice, is noncompliant with NPOV; i.e., the sources cited support a single definition among many, which makes it POV. I see our job as editors to include all significant views, not focus on one POV over another. With regards to the above RfC, keep in mind that NPOV policy states: This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus. Atsme Talk 📧 14:03, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- look at the right-wing options Dictionary of Modern Political Ideologies Page 67 by Michael A. Riff - 1990: gives the context here: The right wing' in a country may well consist of strongly conflicting elements — laisser-faire liberals, anti-Communists, authoritarians, monarchists, jingoes. Fascism (see FASCISM) is certainly a 'right wing' political creed Rjensen (talk) 05:16, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
I haven't participated in the discussion so far (and I won't be able to from now on - too many RL obligations), but I did vote in support of having "right-wing" in the first sentence, and I'd like to also add my perspective here.
The main argument against adding "right-wing" to the first sentence is based on the fact that fascism is a complex and controversial topic and there is no single definition of it that all RS would accept. This is true. But the same argument could be used against calling fascism "a form of... ultranationalism". Not all RS call fascism a form of ultranationalism in their definitions. In fact, the specific term "ultranationalism" does not appear in any of the RS quoted in this discussion so far! And yet we use it in the first sentence, because, while most RS don't explicitly call fascism "ultranationalist" when defining it, almost all RS talk extensively about extreme nationalism as being a core element of fascism. There is a clear scholarly consensus that fascism is a form of ultranationalism, even if most RS don't contain a sentence explicitly saying "fascism is a form of ultranationalism".
The same holds true for the appellation "right-wing". While not all RS explicitly call fascism "right-wing" when defining it, almost all RS that talk about an "extreme right", "far right" or "radical right", include fascism in that political category. So I believe that calling fascism right-wing is just as warranted as calling it ultranationalist. I don't see how the argument about the controversial nature of fascism would apply to the appellation "right-wing" in particular, more than to the other things we say about fascism in the first sentence. Everything about fascism is controversial.
I also think that the first sentence we have right now adequately reflects the lack of a precise consensus on the nature of fascism by keeping things relatively vague and broad. We call fascism "a form of...". That's good. It indicates that what follows are a few general characteristics of fascism. Fascism is a form of radical right-wing authoritarian ultranationalism - but not all radical right-wing authoritarian ultranationalism is fascist. -- Damoclus (talk) 20:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- If RS give multiple perspectives, views and definitions than article should reflect that? Also if no RS given calls it ultranationalist than article shouldn't have that word included either.Sourcerery (talk) 21:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- I can't think of a source that does not call it that although not necessarily in the same words - they may use extreme instead of ultra for example. While different definitions may place different emphases on various aspects, I don't know of any that exclude it. TFD (talk) 00:06, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- First sentence is clearly not quoting sources. "Fascism is a form of radical, right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism". You either say ultranationalism or you say radical nationalism, but you don't say both. Sources say radical which applies to words coming before nationalism and nationalism as well. Sources given don't call it right wing either. From quoted source, Paxton 2004 - Anatomy of Fascism - "Italian revolutionaries used the term fascio in the late nineteenth century to evoke the solidarity of committed militants. The peasants who rose against their landlords in Sicily in 1893–94 called themselves the Fasci Siciliani. When in late 1914 a group of left-wing nationalists, soon joined by the socialist outcast Benito Mussolini, sought to bring Italy into World War I on the Allied side, they chose a name designed to communicate both the fervor and the solidarity of their campaign: the Fascio Rivoluzionario d’Azione Interventista (Revolutionary League for Interventionist Action). At the end of World War I, Mussolini coined the term fascismo to describe the mood of the little band of nationalist ex-soldiers and pro-war syndicalist revolutionaries that he was gathering around himself." Page 4. Later in 1930s when fascism was in decline, Mussolini will blame unease alliance with conservatives and bourgeoisie. Sources quoted have nuances that article is lacking. Robert Paxton "Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion." Looks like there is lot original research on this article.Sourcerery (talk) 11:10, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- I can't think of a source that does not call it that although not necessarily in the same words - they may use extreme instead of ultra for example. While different definitions may place different emphases on various aspects, I don't know of any that exclude it. TFD (talk) 00:06, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Finding sources that use the term "ultranationalism" takes seconds.[2] I'm guessing that most sources call it "far right"[3] so if you think that would be better, fine. Doug Weller talk 11:19, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Then change sources, because given sources don't.Sourcerery (talk) 11:23, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Doug, most tertiary sources do not stereotype it as right wing or left wing. There is also some concern about WP:SYNTH, but the bottomline is the existence of RS that have justifiable challenged other RS that stereotype or label fascism as either right or left wing, and it is noncompliant with NPOV to ignore that argument. Atsme Talk 📧 11:29, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Far right and right wing are both used by RS and both “true”. Far right would likely fit NPOV better as it is more restrictive and would probably be more palatable to those on the right that are not fascist. I’m OK with either. The fact that some right-wing sources point to the German proper name Nationalsozialistische as “proof” that it’s leftist is not NPOV. Ultranationalist is a given. O3000 (talk) 11:55, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Umm, Atsme, that is simply not true. The vast majority of secondary/tertiary sources identity fascism as a right-wing phenomenon. There are a few sources that also discuss "fascism of the left" as a parallel but distinct phenomenon, and there are a few
no true scotsmanright-wing sources that sepatate Fascism from "true" right-wing politics, but it would be UNDUE to give substantial WEIGHT to either. The right-wing denial that Fascism is "of the right" is essentially a FRINGE position. Newimpartial (talk) 12:59, 13 April 2019 (UTC)- Uhm, Newimpartial, I never said what you're alleging I said. If you're going to criticize something I said, then please quote me accurately - "most tertiary sources do not stereotype it as right wing or left wing." If you disagree, feel free to name the reliable tertiary sources that support your position. Atsme Talk 📧 15:19, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Are you making a distinction between "stereotyping" Fascism as right-wing and "identifying" (my term) or characterizing it as right wing? Because sources for the latter have been amply presented on this Talk page. They include literally all mainstream scholarship on Fascism... Newimpartial (talk) 13:30, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Uhm, Newimpartial, I never said what you're alleging I said. If you're going to criticize something I said, then please quote me accurately - "most tertiary sources do not stereotype it as right wing or left wing." If you disagree, feel free to name the reliable tertiary sources that support your position. Atsme Talk 📧 15:19, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Umm, Atsme, that is simply not true. The vast majority of secondary/tertiary sources identity fascism as a right-wing phenomenon. There are a few sources that also discuss "fascism of the left" as a parallel but distinct phenomenon, and there are a few
- Then change sources, because given sources don't.Sourcerery (talk) 11:23, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Finding sources that use the term "ultranationalism" takes seconds.[2] I'm guessing that most sources call it "far right"[3] so if you think that would be better, fine. Doug Weller talk 11:19, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
Roxy, the Prod. wooF can you verify revert that you just did by reading quoted sources and then, after you do, self revert. Thank you.Sourcerery (talk) 13:57, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- No. Roxy, the dog. wooF 13:59, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Oh so you are gonna disregard quoted sources? Then why are they quoted?Sourcerery (talk) 14:01, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- "He states it explicitly on page 1: "It was in France that the radical right soonest acquired the essential characteristics of fascism." Read Zeev Sternhell (1996)." Jensen, read a little further. Sternhell traces the ideological ancestry of French fascism on page 6: "That conflict did not go back only to the interwar period; it came into being with the appearance, at the end of the ninteenth century, of a radical, popular, and socialistically inclined right, which heraled the way for the fascism of the twenties and thirties. This pre-fascism (which ideologically was already a mature form of fascism) immediately clashed with the conservative right; their collaboration on specific issues for particular purposes cannot conceal their essential opposition. ... The traditional, liberal, and conventional right played the same role toward prefascism and then toward fascism itself that social democracy plays toward communism in times of extreme crisis." The writer traces French fascism's origin to Cercle Proudhon, and from there to Charles Maurras' Maurrassisme and Georges Sorel's Sorelianism. He also traces French fascism's origins further to Georges Ernest Boulanger's Boulangisme (synonymous with Revanchism), and Pierre-Joseph Proudhon's own anti-intellectualism and anti-romanticism, and his contempt for bourgeiois and liberal values, for democracy, and for liberalism. Dimadick (talk) 14:07, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- What you are quoting neither supports definition as right wing, neither as ultranationalist. Read source that has 3 pages given for that one sentence, Paxton (2004), pp. 32, 45, 173. Not one page talks about fascist place on political spectrum, neither it calls it ultranationalist. In fact page 173 talks about neofascism and 1994? Sources given support populist, which is not in sentence for some reason?Sourcerery (talk) 14:20, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Sternhell sees prefascism (sic) as a radical right, in opposition to a conservative right. Then traces its origins. It supports definition as right wing. I did not comment on ultranationalism, as I fail to see the difference between a nationalist movement and an ultranationalist movement. Dimadick (talk) 14:42, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Pre-fascism or proto-fascism belong in Proto-fascism article. edit: Just reading literature on fascism that is quoted here and among literature is Sternhell. Sternhell, Neither Right nor Left: Fascist Ideology in France;. So what you are claiming is not true. Sourcerery (talk) 15:03, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Sternhell sees prefascism (sic) as a radical right, in opposition to a conservative right. Then traces its origins. It supports definition as right wing. I did not comment on ultranationalism, as I fail to see the difference between a nationalist movement and an ultranationalist movement. Dimadick (talk) 14:42, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- What you are quoting neither supports definition as right wing, neither as ultranationalist. Read source that has 3 pages given for that one sentence, Paxton (2004), pp. 32, 45, 173. Not one page talks about fascist place on political spectrum, neither it calls it ultranationalist. In fact page 173 talks about neofascism and 1994? Sources given support populist, which is not in sentence for some reason?Sourcerery (talk) 14:20, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- "nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion." " Nationalism already has expansionist goals, and the ideology has been connected to many secession movements, campaigns for political union, and irredentism, since the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Expansionism and Expansionist nationalism are not somehow unique to fascism. Dimadick (talk) 14:32, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- I didn't say it doesn't support nationalist, in fact my edit did indeed put that definition while removing ultranationalist which has no basis in sources.Sourcerery (talk) 14:34, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- We cannot use Sternhell's book to arrive a different conclusions than he did. He calls inter-war fascism part of the Right. TFD (talk) 16:01, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 9 April 2019
In actuality, Facism is more aligned with liberal, leftist ideologies than right-wing. See the actual, real definition provided by reliable sources " totalitarian philosophy of government that glorifies the state and nation and assigns to the state control over every aspect of national life. " Israel Wright (talk) 21:07, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
- See the discussion above – Þjarkur (talk) 21:40, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Copyright violations
How no one pointed this out? This article has so much copyright it's unbelievable? Aside from flat out made up quotes amount of copyright is beyond belief. Articles I created have sections copystriked within days. I'll just quote some of copyright so you can correct me if I'm wrong.
- Robert Paxton, Anatomy of Fascism,Copyright © 2004
- Larsen, Stein Ugelvik, Bernt Hagtvet and Jan Petter Myklebust, Who were the Fascists: Social Roots of European Fascism (Columbia University Press, 1984;,COPYRIGHT: © American Political Science Association 1981
- The Routledge Companion to Fascism and the Far Right. Routledge. 2002 Peter Davies and Derek Lynch All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reprinted or reproduced or utilised in any form or by any electronic, mechanical, or other means, now known or hereafter invented, including photocopying and recording, or in any information storage or retrieval system, without permission in writing from the publishers.
- Fascism by Roger Griffin (not sure, most likely)
- Hartley, John (2004). Communication, Cultural and Media Studies: The key concepts 2002. John Hartley All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reprinted or reproduced or utilised in any form or by any electronic, mechanical, or other means, now known or hereafter invented, including photocopying and recording, or in any information storage or retrieval system, without permission in writing from the publishers.
- Wilhelm, Reich (1970). The Mass Psychology of Fascism. Harper Collins. All rights reserved.
This is just first paragraph. Am I missing something? Are there written permissions?Sourcerery (talk) 16:30, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- I do not have access to these books. Are there exact words from these books inlcuded without quotation marks? We can and often do "use brief verbatim textual excerpts from copyrighted media, properly attributed or cited to its original source or author (as described by the citation guideline), and specifically indicated as direct quotations via quotation marks" (WP:F).--MattMauler (talk) 17:06, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- No I wouldn't say they are properly quoted - verbatim textual excerpts, this one is also cited 5 times, don't one if that falls under brief. - Peter Davies; Derek Lynch (2002). The Routledge Companion to Fascism and the Far Right. Routledge. pp. 1–5. Here you can check for yourself - https://marxismo21.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Fascism-and-the-Far_Right.pdf This is just first paragraph by the way, probably good idea for someone to fine comb through this article.Sourcerery (talk) 17:21, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Can you point out specifically what text in this article is copied directly from these books, and where in the books it's taken from? Red Rock Canyon (talk) 18:30, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- No I wouldn't say they are properly quoted - verbatim textual excerpts, this one is also cited 5 times, don't one if that falls under brief. - Peter Davies; Derek Lynch (2002). The Routledge Companion to Fascism and the Far Right. Routledge. pp. 1–5. Here you can check for yourself - https://marxismo21.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Fascism-and-the-Far_Right.pdf This is just first paragraph by the way, probably good idea for someone to fine comb through this article.Sourcerery (talk) 17:21, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 16 April 2019
Take out "right-wing" in definition of fascist and put left-wing. 69.178.231.103 (talk) 13:21, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Not done: Not what reliable sources say. O3000 (talk) 13:24, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 16 April 2019
Fascism isn't limited to one political ideology, far right vs far left, it can be seen from both political spectrum. Please fix this. You're doing a disservice to the world by not having this correct. 168.208.215.217 (talk) 17:43, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
{{edit semi-protected}}
template. There is a difference between dictatorship and fascism. O3000 (talk) 17:45, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Left-right scale
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The roots of fascism are undeniably left-wing. Not right wing. Authoritarianism was typical for communism (stalin, mao, pot...). Benito Mussolini was member of the PSI, the marxist wing of it. Dinesh D'Souza, George D Watson and others have also clarified the left roots of fascism. The logical fallacy is, appeal to authority. The claim that most academics agree it was a far right politic system is not measurable nor would it change the fact that fascism was declared by Giovanni Gentile, a left-wing character. If you research him, it will become undeniably clear that fascism was based on left principles. Calling fascism right-wing is nothing but falsification of history with the sole purpose of activism i.e. making left look good and right bad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.185.49.243 (talk) 13:26, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
- Mussolini was expelled from and denounced the PSI. You have provided no reliable secondary sources. This has been discussed at great length. Join a current discussion if you wish. O3000 (talk) 13:31, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
- Both of your sources are fringe and cannot be used for this or any other article. Watson, who was an expert on Victorian literature not in political science, argued that socialism has its roots in conservatism and hence is right-wing. D'Souza is a conspiracy theorist. TFD (talk) 13:53, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.