![]() | This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
November 2018 edit and revert
Please see discussion at User_talk:Jytdog#Specific_Carbohydrate_Diet, which had been inappropiately pasted here in this diff, and which I removed and replaced with this note, in this same diff being signed now. Jytdog (talk) 18:14, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
3O Response: The 3O request asks about the reversions (two total), which I see were made by two different editors (only one of whom posted to this discussion). That is a perfectly normal practice on Wikipedia, called Bold-Revert-Discuss (BRD). Editors are encouraged to be bold in editing; if someone opposes the edit, they are free to revert it to the earlier version. The two editors can then discuss the edit, along with any other editors who are watching the article, and try to find a consensus (agreement) on what is the best way to present the article. Reinstating the edit (reverting the revert) or BRR without consensus is generally frowned upon and may be considered disruptive editing.
Discussion requires good faith efforts from all parties, hearing each other out and considering the merits of different approaches. Editors often cite various Wikipedia policies and guidelines, which represent the collective wisdom of the community. One should make an effort to understand these when they are brought up in a discussion; becoming aware of the issues helps move the discussion forward.
Wikipedia's policies for sources are a bit more restrictive when concerning biographies of living persons (BLP) and medicine, which can be difficult subjects for a new editor. Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Medicine-related articles identify some of the issues. Based on those guidelines, I generally support the reversion (I have not examined every detail.
@Beall4: I notice that you only have 9 edits on your account; a major rewrite to a medical article may present a very steep learning curve for you. I would advise that you instead propose smaller edits, or try editing less-difficult topics to learn the process. Alternatively, you can experiment with editing in your sandbox. You can ask for further assistance at The Teahouse, a user group which specializes in helping new users. There's a lot to learn about how Wikipedia works, and I hope this does not discourage you from editing. – Reidgreg (talk) 17:52, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for taking the time to give a third party opinion. I am confused about the process, as I understand wikipedia is designed to have discussion on the content to achieve the most accurate representation of the data. We have not had any discussion on the content to resolve the matter, and it is described above that the revision is not reviewed in detail. The reason to support the reversion it seems is based on the experience of editing rather than the content. Yet, in my initial discussion with jytdog as posted above, I am told that experience or credentials do not matter in this space. Although I am not "experienced" with wikipedia, I have a great deal of experience with the subject matter of this article, as a speaker on the topic. I would like to have a discussion about the content please. The revision is a more in depth and accurate representation of the science. If there are specific references that would be advised to change if the ones listed are felt to be too primary, I can provide alternate secondary sources. In order for wikipedia to be the described venue for constant improvement, the discussion of the science is most pertinenet. I agree discussion is paramount to resolving an issue, so it is disappointing that the revision was reverted back so quickly that it would not have been possible to even have read it, and furthermore discussion upon the detail was not welcome nor continued.01:42, 26 November 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beall4 (talk • contribs)
- What Reidgreg is talking about, is understanding the policies and guidelines here in Wikipedia. That does matter. You are completely ignoring WP:MEDRS. If you do have "alternate secondary sources" as you say, please post the citations here so we can discuss them. Ideally you will have read MEDRS before posting, and only post ones that you believe satisfy the criteria there (which are not at all hard to understand for someone in the field of medicine). Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 02:10, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Beall4: Please don't copy and paste conversations from other pages here, as it makes a mess and doesn't properly provide context for the discussion. Instead, propose specific changes to the article, with reliable sources, and gain consensus here. You are unlikely to ever get consensus for replacing the entire content wholesale, but proposals for incremental changes are welcome. Bradv 17:10, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- What Reidgreg is talking about, is understanding the policies and guidelines here in Wikipedia. That does matter. You are completely ignoring WP:MEDRS. If you do have "alternate secondary sources" as you say, please post the citations here so we can discuss them. Ideally you will have read MEDRS before posting, and only post ones that you believe satisfy the criteria there (which are not at all hard to understand for someone in the field of medicine). Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 02:10, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Wikipedia encourages content discussion and all article discussion belongs here. Beall4 (talk) 17:31, 26 November 2018 (UTC)beall4 26 November 2018
See also: User_talk:Jytdog#Specific_Carbohydrate_Diet --RexxS (talk) 17:45, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
And again, you have copied conversations from one page to another. You must stop this. Bradv 17:59, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- I declined the request for another third opinion in this discussion because I do not think it has progressed since the last one. @Beall4:, I would strongly encourage you to listen to what Jytdog has written. They're an experienced editor, and they're also very experienced in dealing with the complex rules for writing about medical topics. I think it would be helpful for you to make your changes one at a time. What do you think is the single most important problem in this article, and how do you think it should be fixed? --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 18:14, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
I can see that it is not possible to have an academic discussion in this venue, as one editor can simply delete or re-arrange the comments of another, as my response has been deleted 3 x by jytdog. Wikipedia is certainly not interested in providing accurate up to date references so we will simply let it stay outdated and incorrect. I understand now why teachers discourage students from even going to this source. Beall4 (talk) 22:23, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Beall4:, to your points:
- I can see that it is not possible to have an academic discussion in this venue...
- Talk pages are about discussing how to improve the article. Academic discussions that don't forward this goal are off-topic.
- ...as one editor can simply delete or re-arrange the comments of another
- That is correct; Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. You must be prepared to have your edits vetted by other users to ensure they adhere to policy.
- my response has been deleted 3 x by jytdog
- That's because you have been editing against policy.
- Wikipedia is certainly not interested in providing accurate up to date references
- It is a core principle of Wikipedia (WP:V) that content be verifiable via reliable, independent, secondary sources. For medical content, the WP:MEDRS is even stricter.
- ...so we will simply let it stay outdated and incorrect.
- Or reading between the lines, "It's not the way I want to do it".
- There are certain policies and guidelines that have evolved over time to ensure the quality of the encyclopedia; in the area of articles on medical topics, even more so. There are various approaches to dispute resolution, and if you want to take it to the DR noticeboard, nothing is stopping you, but it would help if you try to understand the basic principles first before going there. Cordially, Mathglot (talk) 23:04, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
It is appropriate to edit an article, not a conversation. The question posted here as to what the article needs the most and my response, remain missing. If this group is sincere to have meaningful discussions to improve articles, this reply will be sustained, unaltered. As described in earlier talk sessions on this page, the article has point of view concerns and requires balance as well as content updates to include microbiome and clinical trials information. I realize it is preferred/required by WP:MEDRS to use secondary references such as review articles and not direct references to clinical trials. All of this information is reviewed extensively in review articles, two of which are listed under further reading in the revision, and should be included in the article.Beall4 (talk) 00:50, 3 December 2018 (UTC)beall4
- @Beal4: It is equally inappropriate to copy someone else's comments from a different page to this one, thus falsifying their signature and misleading readers about the contribution. Don't do it again. If you want to to comment on improving this article, then this is the place to do so, nowhere else.
- There is no value whatsoever in adding information from clinical trials. This is an encyclopedia, not a cutting-edge news source. I'm glad you've finally realised that it is required for all biomedical claims to be supported by the highest quality sources. I see one article Existing dietary guidelines for Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis in the Further reading section. Perhaps you'd be kind enough to suggest here what improvements to the current text could be made by using that source? --RexxS (talk) 17:45, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
- I am suggesting changes be proposed with references; one at a time; here: each with a new section header that reflects either the change proposed or the reason for such proposed change. MrBill3 (talk) 18:43, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
- I would agree, MrBill3, that is a good way to go.
- @RexxS: Your statement, "If you want to to comment on improving this article, then this is the place to do so, nowhere else" is probably confusing to a newcomer given that Beall4 was trying to move a conversation about improving this article to this page. It appears from this exchange that at least two of the references rejected when used by Beall4 are already in use on the page. From what I can tell, Beall4 was unable to get further clarification about why they were suddenly being rejected. (It's hard to blame them for wanting to have/move the conversation here where they have a better chance of receiving assistance.) petrarchan47คุก 23:48, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Petrarchan47: First of all, please consider WP:INDENTGAP, thanks.
- Secondly, I don't agree that explaining to a newcomer that this talk page is the place to discuss improvements to this article is any way confusing. It will remove the misapprehension that Beal4 had that they could take up an argument on a user's talk page and then copy the other editor's comments here as if the other editor had made them here. It may also help Beal4 avoid stubbornly repeating the same mistake three times, which lead to their edit-warring block.
- If you think that
"at least two of the references rejected when used by Beall4 are already in use on the page"
, then please do other editors the courtesy of stating which ones. As far as I can see Beal4 was attempting to use five references. Jytdog's opinion was that"The first three references you cited were from 1951, 1955 and 1963. The 4th ref is to a book by a nonspecialist first printed in 2004, and the fifth was a spam link to the website of the author of that book."
Do you accept that to be true? - You only have to look at the responses from multiple other editors on this page to see that your assumption
"Beall4 was unable to get further clarification about why they were suddenly being rejected"
is completely false. - Now if you have anything useful to add in way of improving this article, why not go ahead and raise it? Otherwise, I think you'll find your entire previous comment to be completely off-topic for this talk page. Do you you think you could get your next post back on-topic, please? --RexxS (talk) 00:10, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
- Drop the snark. It serves no purpose when building an encyclopedia. Beall4 was attempting to move a conversation discussing, among other things, this article's content and sources. If we're to talk about the article here and nowhere else, it makes sense to move the relevant bits here. Beall4 now knows to leave the rest behind. I came across the linked exchange only today and haven't yet taken a deep dive. I would support @Beall4: taking MrBill3's suggestion so that editors can see this all laid out. Addressing concerns/sources/content in individual sections is a good approach. petrarchan47คุก 02:06, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
- Agree with Petrarchan47. The biting of Beall4 going on here is unacceptable and needs to stop now. And the sanctimonious lecturing of regulars regarding talk page formatting is doing nothing to diffuse this situation. ♟♙ (talk) 03:55, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Petrarchan47: Quit the ad hominems. If you've nothing useful to add in improving this article, go and find somewhere else to whine. @EnPassant: Beall4 is an SPA whose contributions to the article were not an improvement and whose contributions to the talk page were disruptive. You really don't want to be defending those sort of actions or calling experienced editors "sanctimonious" - we do have an NPA policy. Do you support the copying of another editor's comments and signature onto a page where they did not make them? --RexxS (talk) 01:51, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
- RexxS: 1) This is exactly what I'm talking about. I see ZERO evidence that Beall4 is an SPA, and the WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality being displayed here is wrong. You're continuing to WP:BITE Beall4. Stop that. 2) I'll call a Spade a Spade when their behavior strikes me as such. And 3) your straw man argument is ridiculous and unworthy of response.
- Jytdog has left Wikipedia under a cloud and is soon to be ArbCom blocked for intimidating and harassing Beall4, so his opinions carry no weight. His witch hunts are at an end, all the better for a collaborative project like Wikipedia. Please stop carrying on his legacy or I'll start asking for someone to step in. ♟♙ (talk) 03:55, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
- EnPassant: Then stop talking about another editor and start trying to improve the article. At present, you're not showing any signs of doing that. It's not difficult to find Beal4's edit history: Special:Contributions/Beall4. Every single one of those 28 edits is about Specific Carbohydrate Diet or an editor they are in conflict with about SCD (with the possible exception of the reversion deleted edit, but that's not a good sign either). You do understand what an Single-Purpose Account is, don't you? There's all the evidence you need. It's time you stopped picking fights over issues where you're completely in the wrong, and it's a bit rich when you then accuse other editors of a battleground mentality. There's only one of us here to improve the article and it certainly isn't you. You feel free to ask someone to step in and I'll match my record of upholding the quality of medically related articles against your any day. --RexxS (talk) 13:56, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Petrarchan47: Quit the ad hominems. If you've nothing useful to add in improving this article, go and find somewhere else to whine. @EnPassant: Beall4 is an SPA whose contributions to the article were not an improvement and whose contributions to the talk page were disruptive. You really don't want to be defending those sort of actions or calling experienced editors "sanctimonious" - we do have an NPA policy. Do you support the copying of another editor's comments and signature onto a page where they did not make them? --RexxS (talk) 01:51, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
- Agree with Petrarchan47. The biting of Beall4 going on here is unacceptable and needs to stop now. And the sanctimonious lecturing of regulars regarding talk page formatting is doing nothing to diffuse this situation. ♟♙ (talk) 03:55, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
- Drop the snark. It serves no purpose when building an encyclopedia. Beall4 was attempting to move a conversation discussing, among other things, this article's content and sources. If we're to talk about the article here and nowhere else, it makes sense to move the relevant bits here. Beall4 now knows to leave the rest behind. I came across the linked exchange only today and haven't yet taken a deep dive. I would support @Beall4: taking MrBill3's suggestion so that editors can see this all laid out. Addressing concerns/sources/content in individual sections is a good approach. petrarchan47คุก 02:06, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
- I am suggesting changes be proposed with references; one at a time; here: each with a new section header that reflects either the change proposed or the reason for such proposed change. MrBill3 (talk) 18:43, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Deeper dive:
- Here is the explanation used for reverting Beall4's work:
- "The first three references you cited were from 1951, 1955 and 1963. The 4th ref is to a book by a nonspecialist first printed in 2004"
- Here Beall4 questions the reversion:
- "The first reference is actually the same that is currently used on the existing page [Number 2 here: Haas, Sidney Valentine; Haas, Merrill Patterson (1951)], and the second two are from medical journals written by the founder of the diet."
- "The fourth is the same reference currently used on the existing page" [Number 8 here: Gottschall, Elaine Gloria, 1921]
- Haas and Gottschall were restored to the page twice after rejecting them when used by Beall4: [1] and [2]
It is a fact that Beall4 was unable to get further clarification about why they were suddenly being rejected
. Beall4's questions about this were never answered: Specific Carbohydrate Diet. Instead Beall4 was lectured about the sanctity of WP:MEDRS. petrarchan47คุก 01:12, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
- So you agree that the four of the references Beal4 used to add content were over 50 years old. Those references may be suitable the History section, but only to straightforwardly report - as the original content removed by Beal4 did:
In 1924, the first Specific Carbohydrate Diet for the treatment of children with celiac disease was the banana diet. Haas described a trial with 10 children, and all 8 children treated with bananas went into remission, and the two control children died. The banana SCD was the cornerstone of celiac therapy for decades until bread shortages in the Netherlands caused by World War II caused children with celiac disease to improve, which led to the isolation of wheat proteins, not starches, as the cause of celiac disease. Before the banana SCD, one of four children with celiac died. After more research, he described the Specific Carbohydrate Diet as a treatment for celiac disease and inflammatory bowel disease in his 1951 medical textbook The Management of Celiac Disease. Haas never accepted the finding that wheat gluten was the damaging part of wheat; he insisted it was starch and called the discovery about a gluten a "disservice".
- Compare that with what Beal4 substituted allegedly from the same sources:
The Specific Carbohydrate Diet was developed by Sydney Haas, MD who along with John Howland, MD served as assistants at Vanderbilt Clinic to L. Emmett Holt, Sr, MD, a physician at the turn of the twentieth century taking a lead role in the US studying celiac disease. Holt, together with Christian Herter, MD, a physician and pathologist from Columbia University, reported that the condition is associated with abnormal forms of bacteria and “may confidently be ascribed to the action of putrefactive products”. Howland reports “that of all the elements of food, carbohydrates is the one which must be excluded rigorously”. Howland’s treatment was very successful, but the need for some tolerable carbohydrate remained. Haas discovered a paper on “The value of Banana in the Treatment of Celiac Disease” and began incorporating carefully specific carbohydrates into the diet to determine the tolerability. The SCD, also known at the time in the 1940s’ as the “banana diet”, was met with great success in treating patients with gastrointestinal conditions diagnosed at the time as celiac disease based on symptoms, as no laboratory tests specific to celiac disease existed.
- Can you see that statements like "Howland’s treatment was very successful" are flagrant breaches of MEDRS? A single trial on 10 children cannot be extrapolated to draw broad conclusions. The whole re-write blurred or omitted both detail and key facts, while subtly fostering the impression that there is only one 'Specific Carbohydrate Diet' - the one they are promoting. It seems that despite being referred to MEDRS multiple times, Beal4 has still not taken the time to read and understand it. Now are you interested in looking for improvements to the article, or just in criticising the editors who are trying to uphold the principles of MEDRS? --RexxS (talk) 01:51, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
- RexxS’s interpretation is accurate and I feel Petrarchan47 is going down the wrong path. Not sure if this page can be substantially improved, as I am only vaguely familiar with the subject matter, but following MEDRS should help if improvements are to be made. Beall4’s initial edits were of poor standard and were correctly reverted, but this poor editing could likely be due to her being a newbie. Hopefully Beall4 can learn about MEDRS and make productive contributions.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 02:43, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
- Agreed, the Beall4 edit was not good, and the mention of benefit to autism and cystic fibrosis (without source) concerning. Relatedly, the invocation of the GAPS diet also sounds a loud alarm bell, as with this we are into deep quackery.[3] Alexbrn (talk) 06:29, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
- My "path" was an attempt to begin unraveling the issues Beall4 encountered here as a newbie. I've made two edits: one to question whether Beall4 accurately described two of the sources s/he used as being already present. The second was to answer Rexx
If you think that "at least two of the references rejected when used by Beall4 are already in use on the page", then please do other editors the courtesy of stating which ones.
I have shown that Beall4 had good reason to question the total revert of their work, given that they would have assumed the present (at the time) page was an example of MEDRS used properly, and that sources there had already been vetted. I maintain that Beall4 received no helpful, direct answer to valid questions, and indeed their claim was accurate. - I reject the notion that Beall4's "single purpose" can be defined after only 3 weeks at Wikipedia. Additionally, if they are an expert in the field, it makes sense that their edits would cluster around that topic, at least initially, and it seems we should welcome any useful edits from them. As they claim, the entirety of their work was deleted without time for a thorough review. Given the fact that 2 sources now rejected were in fact re-added in the reverts lends credence to this claim - there was no proper review of their edit.
- I highy doubt that all of their work merits rejection, and I am curious to see what sources they can offer once guided on the use of WP:RS policy and the WP:MEDRS guideline. Beall4 commented that if shown (one at a time) which sources were problematic, they could easily find replacements. If Beall4 returns to discuss potential improvements, I again support the path MrBill3 proposed: each source, related claim/text, and related discussion in separate talk page sections.
- If SCD was first defined in the early '50's, then rejecting any source from that period doesn't immediately make sense to me, and I doubt it would to a newcomer. These are issues best dealt with one at a time. But without Beall4's return to this page to initiate this process, I have no intention of continuing given the present climate. petrarchan47คุก 17:34, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Petrarchan47: First, please review WP:INDENTGAP, as you were previously politely requested, and stop being a prat to screen-reader users.
- Secondly, why are you questioning Beal4's description of the sources used? As has already been explained, using vintage reliable sources is fine for reporting plain facts. Why aren't you questioning the use they made of them to obfuscate facts and introduce unjustifiable medical claims? That's where MEDRS comes into it. Sources, per se, are not RS nor MEDRS: it all depends on the context in which they are being used.
- If you think that Beal4 "had good reason to question the total revert of their work", then you really do need to re-read MEDRS, as does Beal4. The use of the old sources doesn't impinge on MEDRS until you start using them to support biomedical claims, as the article previously didn't, but Beal4 subsequently did, more than once.
- I reaffirm my contention that Beal4 is a single-purpose account with an interest solely in SCD. Until I see evidence of them editing in other areas, I will stand by that observation, which is based in verifiable fact, unlike the unsubstantiated froth that you're peddling.
- Beal4's repeated edit was reverted twice, by two separate, experienced editors: "essay like, chatty content, that includes WP:OR commentary"; and "WP:PROFRINGE / unreliable". If you're casting aspersions on whether Jytdog and Alexbrn did a thorough review, then you'd better have some good evidence. It certainly didn't take me more than 5 minutes to check Beal4's edits and spot the issues – as I've illustrated above. Are you going to claim now that Beal4's substantial re-write actually improved the article?
- I'd be delighted if Beal4 were to offer some new, relevant, high-quality sources, and I'd be among the first to thank them, but you'd think that as a
doctor of pharmacy with experience in analyzing and presenting medical data, and as an organizer of the "Nutritional Therapy for IBD" exhibit
, they would already know what the best sources were. Isn't that how we define expertise on Wikipedia? - Finally, let me make clear my complete agreement with MrBill3's proposal: first find the high-quality references; then propose text additions or changes based on them, one at a time, here. Then let's discus them. --RexxS (talk) 18:20, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
- My "path" was an attempt to begin unraveling the issues Beall4 encountered here as a newbie. I've made two edits: one to question whether Beall4 accurately described two of the sources s/he used as being already present. The second was to answer Rexx
- Agreed, the Beall4 edit was not good, and the mention of benefit to autism and cystic fibrosis (without source) concerning. Relatedly, the invocation of the GAPS diet also sounds a loud alarm bell, as with this we are into deep quackery.[3] Alexbrn (talk) 06:29, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
- RexxS’s interpretation is accurate and I feel Petrarchan47 is going down the wrong path. Not sure if this page can be substantially improved, as I am only vaguely familiar with the subject matter, but following MEDRS should help if improvements are to be made. Beall4’s initial edits were of poor standard and were correctly reverted, but this poor editing could likely be due to her being a newbie. Hopefully Beall4 can learn about MEDRS and make productive contributions.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 02:43, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
- I really wish people would desist when it comes to commenting on the perceived deficiencies of Beal4. This woman was barely here for very long before she got blocked, and then wound up subjected to the kind of drama that probably has her thinking Wikipedia is an absolute loony bin. Before she could get up a head of steam here she's being batted around in an "arbitration" case that she probably found to be demented. And it hasn't stopped---she's still fair game. On top of everything, I get the impression that she has the medical issue that is treated by this diet, and apparently it is no fun at all. Why not let up. All accounts are SPAs at first because editors are interested in specific stuff. She had a terrible start. Let's not put too fine a point on it. Please knock if off. Coretheapple (talk) 22:59, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Coretheapple: On the other hand, you could simply not jump on the bandwagon of knocking other editors who are simply trying to uphold the quality of medical articles. What has your contribution here done to improve the article? Nothing. What is it you want? Do you want to give new editors the right to edit as they see fit? to ignore consensus, WP:MEDRS, WP:OR, to edit war, and so on? If a new editor breaches our accepted policies and guidelines, you want us to keep quiet and not explain to them? You want us to accept a new editor's edits that make an article worse, because they are new? or that we sympathise with their presumed disabilities? Personally, I know people with IBS and CD, and I do sympathise quite strongly with them, but I wouldn't expect them to want special treatment if they edited Wikipedia, just because of that. --RexxS (talk) 01:23, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
- All I'm suggesting is that this editor Beal4 has been bitten worse than any new editor in history, worse than Robert Shaw in the teeth of that shark in Jaws, that we set down the whip and show some sympathy, that's all. This is not a radical concept. This article is now under intense scrutiny from people who don't know Crohn's Disease from syphilis, so I really don't think there is any danger that it will be swamped with POV editing. Coretheapple (talk) 02:06, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
- I have been watching this page after seeing how poorly Beall4 was treated. I agree with Petrarchan47 and Coretheapple that this user was unfairly bitten, and that allegations of WP:SPA to a new editor with less than 20 edits is quite unreasonable and harsh--even if the edits can be proven to show a strong bias. (Note: I am not giving an opinion that they are biased or strongly biased--I have not dug deep enough in to the WP:RS to know.)
- All I'm suggesting is that this editor Beal4 has been bitten worse than any new editor in history, worse than Robert Shaw in the teeth of that shark in Jaws, that we set down the whip and show some sympathy, that's all. This is not a radical concept. This article is now under intense scrutiny from people who don't know Crohn's Disease from syphilis, so I really don't think there is any danger that it will be swamped with POV editing. Coretheapple (talk) 02:06, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Coretheapple: On the other hand, you could simply not jump on the bandwagon of knocking other editors who are simply trying to uphold the quality of medical articles. What has your contribution here done to improve the article? Nothing. What is it you want? Do you want to give new editors the right to edit as they see fit? to ignore consensus, WP:MEDRS, WP:OR, to edit war, and so on? If a new editor breaches our accepted policies and guidelines, you want us to keep quiet and not explain to them? You want us to accept a new editor's edits that make an article worse, because they are new? or that we sympathise with their presumed disabilities? Personally, I know people with IBS and CD, and I do sympathise quite strongly with them, but I wouldn't expect them to want special treatment if they edited Wikipedia, just because of that. --RexxS (talk) 01:23, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
- We need to welcome new editors--especially with the kind of expertise this editor clearly has--rather than have them blocked for simply trying to discuss sources here on the article page, where that discussion belongs. A meaningful discussion about their edits and sources should take place. Beall4 added about 16 or 17 sources to the page, some of which look to be worth adding. (I will mention below.) Beall4 was not even edit-warring on the article page, and yet blocked for trying to discuss the sources??? Beall4 deserves an apology from the community for this treatment I will give mine. --David Tornheim (talk) 05:06, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
- @David Tornheim: So you think Beall4 was unfairly bitten? Then you shouldn't have any difficulty in giving the diffs of where this biting took place, should you? Was it when their substantial re-write that worsened the article was reverted? Or was it when they edit-warred the same content back in and that was reverted as well? Or perhaps it was when Reidgreg responded to a 3O request and explained BRD? Or when Jytdog tried to draw their attention to our policies and guidelines, especially, MEDRS? Maybe you are referring to when Bradv told Beall4 not to copy and paste conversations from other pages here? - which they did six times. So much for that crap about "not edit-warring". If you tried to force your own way that many times after being told that it breaches our conventions, would you really be surprised if you were blocked?
- If you want to talk about the sources they used, fine. Beall4 added some 17 primary sources to the article and removed 3 secondary sources. That is not an improvement. We do not write (and especially not re-write) articles, removing the highest quality review articles and replacing them with a mish-mash of case studies, trials, and speculations. Nor do we use those sources to remove plain summaries like "Haas described a trial with 10 children, and all 8 children treated with bananas went into remission, and the two control children died" with fanciful speculation like "The SCD, also known at the time in the 1940s’ as the “banana diet”, was met with great success in treating patients with gastrointestinal conditions... ".
- Now, if you'd like to present your case for WP:BITE along with proper diffs, instead of making unsupported accusations against other editors, I'd be happy to listen, and help resolve the issues. Or if you want to try to defend Beall4's edit-warring, use of primary sources, original research, and editorialising, then make a good case for it – and I'm sure the offenders who took issue with that behaviour will be only too willing to make the apologies you demand. --RexxS (talk) 15:19, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
- We need to welcome new editors--especially with the kind of expertise this editor clearly has--rather than have them blocked for simply trying to discuss sources here on the article page, where that discussion belongs. A meaningful discussion about their edits and sources should take place. Beall4 added about 16 or 17 sources to the page, some of which look to be worth adding. (I will mention below.) Beall4 was not even edit-warring on the article page, and yet blocked for trying to discuss the sources??? Beall4 deserves an apology from the community for this treatment I will give mine. --David Tornheim (talk) 05:06, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. I am getting ready to hat this whole section. Please as per the guidelines in a new section begin a discussion about improving Specific carbohydrate diet. Any other discussion on Talk:Specific carbohydrate diet is not appropriate, there are numerous other venues on WP for discussions on other topics. If someone feels there is a proposal for a change to this article in the above. I suggest proposing it again in a new section. MrBill3 (talk) 07:57, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
Cleanup
I've cleaned up the page to help avoid further confusion; there were two old books cited as primary sources (for "X wrote a book", not to generate any actual content), as these seem to be causing confusion. I've also removed the other spammy Foundation refs, which are not MEDRS and we should not have been using. What is left has solid sourcing. The NYT ref and the University of Chicago refs are used for history, not for medical content. Jytdog (talk) 22:17, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Reference quality and proposed deletions
I notice that there are more footnotes to Hou, Lee and Lewis than any other reference. I propose to remove any material from the article sourced solely to this article, because imho it cannot be considered a reliable source. Quote from the article: We review patient-targeted dietary information for IBD from structured Internet searches and popular defined diets. This does not meet the requirements of peer-review, and should be rejected. Mathglot (talk) 15:23, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
- That seems like a reasonable approach for finding "patient targeted recommendations". The review counterpoints these against published literature, which seems fine. I'm not sure how peer review comes into it? It's not as if we have much RS in this area so this looks like a useful source surely. Alexbrn (talk) 15:42, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
- I think it depends how the source is being used. If it’s being used to support an assertion like, “Here’s what shows up on the internet about topic X when people searched for it during period Y”, then it could be okay. But I don’t see how you can make any credible claim about the topic itself based on “structured internet searches”, otherwise we are all potential reliable sources ourselves. If by “patient-targeted recommendations” they mean “unvetted stuff you can find on the internet about the topic” then I don’t disagree. Mathglot (talk) 16:47, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
- As I said though, they get these recommendations and ALSO look at the published evidence for comparison. In sum, the article is a critique of the gap between what people say about these diets, and what the evidence is. The whole text is freely available so have a look - I'm not seeing anything whacky in it. Alexbrn (talk) 16:51, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: At the top of the article on PMC] are the words "Peer reviewed and accepted for publication". I think I'll take the word of PMC about peer-review over some amateur investigator on Wikipedia. Anyone reading the article can see that it examines "Patient-Targeted Recommendations" (the title) from internet searches – in just the same way that patients may be expected to – and then critiques the advice against scientific evidence drawn from 67 cited sources. There is absolutely no reason not to use the conclusions of the review. The content sourced to this review is:
"It is a gluten-free diet since no grains are permitted"
"In 1924, Sidney V. Haas (1870–1964) described the first SCD for the treatment of children with celiac disease; this was the banana diet."
"Even less evidence exists for the efficacy of the SCD, FODMAP, or Paleo diet"
"It also said that the diet risks imposition of an undue financial burden and potentially causes malnutrition"
- All of that content relies on the analysis of the relevant medical literature performed in the review and not on the methodology involved in posing the question that the review examined. If there's disagreement, you'll find that the Reliable Sources Noticeboard is a useful venue to get further advice. --RexxS (talk) 17:52, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: At the top of the article on PMC] are the words "Peer reviewed and accepted for publication". I think I'll take the word of PMC about peer-review over some amateur investigator on Wikipedia. Anyone reading the article can see that it examines "Patient-Targeted Recommendations" (the title) from internet searches – in just the same way that patients may be expected to – and then critiques the advice against scientific evidence drawn from 67 cited sources. There is absolutely no reason not to use the conclusions of the review. The content sourced to this review is:
- As I said though, they get these recommendations and ALSO look at the published evidence for comparison. In sum, the article is a critique of the gap between what people say about these diets, and what the evidence is. The whole text is freely available so have a look - I'm not seeing anything whacky in it. Alexbrn (talk) 16:51, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
- I think it depends how the source is being used. If it’s being used to support an assertion like, “Here’s what shows up on the internet about topic X when people searched for it during period Y”, then it could be okay. But I don’t see how you can make any credible claim about the topic itself based on “structured internet searches”, otherwise we are all potential reliable sources ourselves. If by “patient-targeted recommendations” they mean “unvetted stuff you can find on the internet about the topic” then I don’t disagree. Mathglot (talk) 16:47, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
Concerning deletion of content
In this edit, Beall4 removed the following text:
- It also said that the diet risks imposition of an undue financial burden and potentially causes malnutrition.
with an edit summary:
- remove line that is false and not supported by reference cited
This was sourced to:
- Hou JK, Lee D, Lewis J (October 2014). "Diet and inflammatory bowel disease: review of patient-targeted recommendations". Clin. Gastroenterol. Hepatol. (Review). 12 (10): 1592–600. doi:10.1016/j.cgh.2013.09.063. PMC 4021001. PMID 24107394..
The source states:
"Even less evidence exists for the efficacy of the SCD, FODMAP, or Paleo diets... adherence to defined diets may result in an unnecessary financial burden or reduction in overall caloric intake in patients who are already at risk for protein–calorie malnutrition."
This blatantly inappropriate edit is not the action of an expert editor concerned with the accuracy of the article, but the action of someone deceptively attempting to remove negative information about SCD. --RexxS (talk) 15:55, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
- The reference above in no manner describes the diet to "cause malnutrition" as above only describes "may result in overall caloric intake..."
A more current reference 1 including some of these same authors in the above reference concludes “…on the SCD, nutrient intake is comparable to that of similarly aged healthy children in the United States. ““..our data show nutritional adequacy and safety of the diet in general.”“..future studies need to assess whether gradual liberalization of the SCD can make it easier for patients to consume a nutritionally adequate diet while maintaining similar outcomes in the treatment of their IBD.” 1. Braly, et al. Nutritional Adequacy of the Specific Carbohydrate Diet in Pediatric Inflammatory Bowel Disease. JPGN 2017;65: 533–538)
This clearly refutes even the possibility or reduced caloric intake. Beall4 (talk) 16:26, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
- That newer source you mention - PMID 28825603 - is a primary source so not reliable for asserting biomedical facts. The source that RexxS quotes does indeed invoke malnutrition (the source also mentions Vitamin D deficiency), and the material about the diet being costly is in the source too - so your edit summary would appear to be inaccurate. The edit was also marked as a minor edit - please see WP:MINOR for the limited circumstances when this should be done. Alexbrn (talk) 16:37, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
- The 2017 reference is not any more primary than the 2014 reference Beall4 (talk) 16:50, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
- PMID 28825603 reports a clinical trial (so is PRIMARY); PMID 24107394 is a review article (so is SECONDARY). I believe multiple editors have pointed you to WP:MEDRS which explains the difference. You may also find WP:WHYMEDRS helpful for background if unclear about why these things matter here. Alexbrn (talk) 16:57, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
- To leave the article with the line that it "potentially cause malnutrition" is a very egregious error and only the result of a Widipedia editor taking overt liberties to misrepresent the authors statement and intent of "may potentially reduce caloric intake", of which has not been found to be of any concern in follow-up.Beall4 (talk) 21:23, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Beall4: The line
"the diet ... potentially causes malnutrition"
in the article is derived from the source text"adherence to defined diets may result in ... reduction in overall caloric intake in patients who are already at risk for protein–calorie malnutrition."
How can you call that "an egregious error"? If a patient is already at risk of malnutrition because of a lack of calories, then it seems reasonable for the source to conclude that a diet that further reduces calorie intake has the potential to cause malnutrition. What else does the word "at risk" mean? Are you trying to claim that the opposite is true? Do you honestly believe that further reducing the calorie intake of someone who is already at risk of malnutrition because of insufficient calories is somehow going to reduce their chances of suffering from malnutrition? That is an extraordinarily counter-intuitive position to take, and you're going to need extraordinarily good sourcing to justify it per WP:REDFLAG. So far, I've seen no evidence of your ability to marshal good quality sources to refute the conclusion of the reliable secondary sources, such as Hou 2014, presently in use in the article. --RexxS (talk) 23:05, 11 December 2018 (UTC)- "Hwang and colleagues discussed the nutritional deficiencies that can possibly occur with the SCD including ....vitamin D deficiency.....although this is purely speculative." Diet as a Therapeutic Option for Adult Inflammatory Bowel Disease. Kakodkar, Mutlu.Gastroenterol Clin N Am 46 (2017) 745–767 This speculation of any nutrient deficiency or leap you have taken above with malnutrition has been removed from consideration with the reference given farther above, thus any consideration of such is not even discussed in current review articles. Furthermore, there are at least twenty ongoing studies, looking at dietary interventions with SCD, none of which would be permitted if there was any risk of malnutrition.Beall4 (talk) 13:13, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
- If by by the reference "given above" you mean PMID 28825603, then to repeat: this is a report of a clinical trial (of nine patients). It is not a reliable source. When and if new reliable sources are published, we can make uses of them. I do not think RexxS is making a leap on malnutrition, but reflecting the ineluctable logic of the source. Alexbrn (talk) 13:17, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Beall4: Diet as a Therapeutic Option for Adult Inflammatory Bowel Disease states:
The article by Hwang et al is not the same as the article by Hou et al and discusses different things. Why do you think that a comment about potential vitamin and mineral deficiencies of SCD has any bearing on the statementHwang et al. discussed the nutritional deficiencies that can possibly occur with the SCD including folate, thiamine, vitamin B6/D/C/A, calcium and potassium deficiencies, though this is purely speculative.
"adherence to defined diets may result in ... reduction in overall caloric intake in patients who are already at risk for protein–calorie malnutrition"
? Don't you understand that vitamin and mineral deficiencies are different from protein–calorie malnutrition? --RexxS (talk) 18:24, 12 December 2018 (UTC)- The sentence you quoted starts with
The statement indicates to me that Hwang et al. were considering all possible significant nutritional deficiencies that might occur by restricting diet this way. The ones enumerated were the ones that the authors of the primary study (and of the review article) considered to be potentially significant. The absence of mention of protein and calorie deficiencies indicate they did not see any potential concern worth mentioning. If this continued to be a concern, it would have been mentioned in this part of the article. Beall4's point is well taken.Hwang et al. discussed the nutritional deficiencies that can possibly occur with the SCD including...
- @Beall4: You say that there are twenty clinical trials going on right now. Can you provide evidence for that from reliable sources (WP:RS)? We can't rely on your testimony to establish that as a fact. I don't see a need for them to meet the elevated requirements of WP:MEDRS, because the existence of the trials is not a health claim. --David Tornheim (talk) 20:50, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
- @David Tornheim: The sentence that I quoted states that Hwang was speculating about potential folate, thiamine, vitamin B6/D/C/A, calcium and potassium deficiencies. It says absolutely nothing about other potential nutritional deficiencies. Expanding a list of vitamins and minerals to encompass carbohydrates and proteins is the sort of original research that Wikipedia expressly prohibits. It is ridiculous to suggest that Kakodkar's comment can be used by extrapolation to refute a plainly stated fact in a reliable source:
" ... diets may result in ... reduction in overall caloric intake in patients who are already at risk for protein–calorie malnutrition"
. Beall4's scarcely comprehensible protestations"This speculation of any nutrient deficiency or leap you have taken above with malnutrition has been removed from consideration with the reference given farther above, thus any consideration of such is not even discussed in current review articles."
is purest fantasy, and displays a complete lack of understanding of how sources may be used. --RexxS (talk) 02:04, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- @David Tornheim: The sentence that I quoted states that Hwang was speculating about potential folate, thiamine, vitamin B6/D/C/A, calcium and potassium deficiencies. It says absolutely nothing about other potential nutritional deficiencies. Expanding a list of vitamins and minerals to encompass carbohydrates and proteins is the sort of original research that Wikipedia expressly prohibits. It is ridiculous to suggest that Kakodkar's comment can be used by extrapolation to refute a plainly stated fact in a reliable source:
- The sentence you quoted starts with
- @Beall4: Diet as a Therapeutic Option for Adult Inflammatory Bowel Disease states:
- If by by the reference "given above" you mean PMID 28825603, then to repeat: this is a report of a clinical trial (of nine patients). It is not a reliable source. When and if new reliable sources are published, we can make uses of them. I do not think RexxS is making a leap on malnutrition, but reflecting the ineluctable logic of the source. Alexbrn (talk) 13:17, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
- "Hwang and colleagues discussed the nutritional deficiencies that can possibly occur with the SCD including ....vitamin D deficiency.....although this is purely speculative." Diet as a Therapeutic Option for Adult Inflammatory Bowel Disease. Kakodkar, Mutlu.Gastroenterol Clin N Am 46 (2017) 745–767 This speculation of any nutrient deficiency or leap you have taken above with malnutrition has been removed from consideration with the reference given farther above, thus any consideration of such is not even discussed in current review articles. Furthermore, there are at least twenty ongoing studies, looking at dietary interventions with SCD, none of which would be permitted if there was any risk of malnutrition.Beall4 (talk) 13:13, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Beall4: The line
- The 2017 reference is not any more primary than the 2014 reference Beall4 (talk) 16:50, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
I'm looking at this discussion from top to bottom. The key phrase for me is "causes malnutrition". Several sources indicate that diet restrictions, such as SCD, can create nutritional deficiencies in the person's diet (e.g. this WebWD article). This is why there are recommendations that anyone attempting the diet should see a nutritionist first. What I did not see in the literature (including the key quote from Hou et al.) are claims that the diet "causes malnutrition", which sounds like (i.e. has the connotation of) a severe condition with long-term possibly permanent health problems, such as starvation, scurvy, etc. The first sentence of our article malnutrition says:
- Malnutrition is a condition that results from eating a diet in which one or more nutrients are either not enough or are too much such that the diet causes health problems.
I did not see that the literature saying the diet has caused health problems from nutritional deficiencies. It might be there. If so, let's see the WP:RS that says this. I suggest we stick more carefully with what the sources say rather than inferring things from them. It's fine with me to say that the diet can create nutritional deficiencies that must be addressed, but to say that it "causes malnutrition" does not seem appropriate based on the quotes above. --David Tornheim (talk) 08:01, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- Meh. We don't say the diet "causes malnutrition". We say it "potentially causes malnutrition", which is the same as your "can create nutritional deficiencies that must be addressed", but worded better. Alexbrn (talk) 08:18, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- Agree with David Tornheim. Reduction of calories or potential for nutrient deficiences is in line with the intent of the paper. Although honestly, this has been resolved with the "Nutritional Adequacy" article and thus it is not mentioned in current review articles, other than as above to state the concern was "purely speculative". Here is a link to the ongoing trials with the Specific Carbohydrate Diet. Given the rigourous detail of gaining IRB approval to conduct a trial, it simply would not be permitted if there were any real risk of malnutrition. https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?cond=&term=Specific+Carbohydrate+diet&cntry=&state=&city=&dist=&Search=Search
- Perhaps an email from the author of the paper would clarify the intent of this single line. Beall4 (talk) 13:34, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- Please learn to indent your posts. I have done it for you this time, I wont do it again, you have been here long enough to know better. Roxy, the dog. wooF 15:09, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Beall4:.
"Reduction of calories or potential for nutrient deficiences is in line with the intent of the paper"
What does that mean in English? Which paper? and who are you to decide what the intent of the paper was? We have a good source (Hou) which states:"adherence to defined diets may result in ... reduction in overall caloric intake in patients who are already at risk for protein–calorie malnutrition."
- That is telling you that: (1) if you reduce the calorie intake of patients who are already at risk of protein–calorie malnutrition, you increase that risk; and (2) some diets including SCD have the potential to reduce that calorie intake. There is no other reading of that source that makes any sense. So, of course, it's reasonable to summarise that in the lead as SCD "potentially causes malnutrition". If you disagree with Hou, then quote some equally reliable source that says that SCD has no potential to reduce calorie intake, nor to increase the risk to those already at risk of protein-calorie malnutrition.
- I am now getting sick of folks having to tell you that articles like Nutritional Adequacy of the Specific Carbohydrate Diet in Pediatric Inflammatory Bowel Disease are clinical trials and hence primary sources. Read WP:MEDRS, will you? You'll see it says Primary sources should not be cited with intent of "debunking", contradicting, or countering any conclusions made by secondary sources. Is there any way I can make that clearer to you? --RexxS (talk) 01:01, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
(1) if you reduce the calorie intake of patients who are already at risk of protein–calorie malnutrition, you increase that risk; and (2) some diets including SCD have the potential to reduce that calorie intake. There is no other reading of that source that makes any sense. So, of course, it's reasonable to summarise that in the lead as SCD "potentially causes malnutrition".
That is WP:SYN. The paper does not say that the diet "potentially causes malnutrition." None of the papers secondary or primary say that. It's not a proper summary of what the papers say. They talk about possible nutrient deficiency and the need to consult with a physician or dietician to address such concerns. Our article should report what is in the WP:RS.- Unless someone can find a source that says that the diet "possibly causes malnutrition", I intend to change the language to mention the potential nutrient deficiencies and the need for consultation with a dietician that I have seen in the literature. Any objections? --David Tornheim (talk) 02:40, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- Rubbish. WP:SYN is combining "material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources". What other source did I combine with Hou's statement
"adherence to defined diets may result in an unnecessary financial burden or reduction in overall caloric intake in patients who are already at risk for protein–calorie malnutrition"
to synthesise a conclusion? - That statement is accurately summarised by the text "It also said that the diet risks imposition of an undue financial burden and potentially causes malnutrition." If you disagree, then feel free to suggest other wording that you feel better summarises what the source says. If you disagree with what Hou states, then find a source that says SCD cannot cause malnutrition in patients already at risk for it. --RexxS (talk) 03:00, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- WP:SYN also says:
- Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source..."A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article. If a single source says "A" in one context, and "B" in another, without connecting them, and does not provide an argument of "therefore C", then "therefore C" cannot be used in any article.
- A = "If you reduce the calorie intake of patients who are already at risk of protein–calorie malnutrition, you increase that risk."
- B = "Some diets including SCD have the potential to reduce that calorie intake."
- C = "SCD potentially causes malnutrition."
- --David Tornheim (talk) 03:25, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- If someone has a certain condition, SCD may result in malnutrition. That is the definition of "potentially causes malnutrition". Johnuniq (talk) 04:55, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, the source is clear and we have a good WP:TERSE summary. Summarizing ain't synthesis. Alexbrn (talk) 05:31, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- WP:SYN also says:
- Rubbish. WP:SYN is combining "material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources". What other source did I combine with Hou's statement
- @Beall4:.
- Please learn to indent your posts. I have done it for you this time, I wont do it again, you have been here long enough to know better. Roxy, the dog. wooF 15:09, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- Meh. We don't say the diet "causes malnutrition". We say it "potentially causes malnutrition", which is the same as your "can create nutritional deficiencies that must be addressed", but worded better. Alexbrn (talk) 08:18, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
Another deletion
Beall4 has just made another[4] large-scale deletion, replacing much of the article with unsourced, weakly-sourced and promotional-tinted content. This is getting disruptive. I have reverted. (Add: and they have edit-warred[5] the change back again.) Alexbrn (talk) 15:15, 13 December 2018 (UTC); amended 15:18, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- Agree that this is disruptive, and have returned to good. -Roxy, the dog. wooF 15:22, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
Trademarked?
I was looking for more sources on this and came across the claim that this diet is trademarked and apparently use of the term requires a license.[6] This strikes me as ... odd. Anybody know of any decent sourcing/discussion of this? Alexbrn (talk) 18:11, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
- Well, anyone can slap a "TM" symbol on anything without consequence. The ® symbol, on the other hand, isn't legal to use unless the trademark is actually registered. The term has been around since 1950 as far as I can tell[7][8] and possibly even earlier. Google Scholar search for the quoted term "specific carbohydrate diet" hit on a paper from 1931 although the term doesn't appear in the abstract. Bottom line, the operators of that website certainly don't "own" the term. ~Anachronist (talk) 21:52, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
- Addendum: I suppose they could legitimately claim a trademark on the capitalized version "Specific Carbohydrate Diet" in a similar sense that "SPAM" is a trademark of Hormel Foods but "spam" isn't. The scholarly articles don't use it as a proper noun. But their attempt to trademark the acronym SCD is ridiculous, as that acronym was in use well before they came along. ~Anachronist (talk) 16:01, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Anachronist:
Bottom line, the operators of that website certainly don't "own" the term.
On basis do you make that legal determination? Are you an attorney? --David Tornheim (talk) 20:05, 14 December 2018 (UTC)- On what basis? Logic and research. The term has been in use long before anyone attempted to trademark it, rendering the trademark invalid (the only validity it would have is if anyone used the term in the context of the company's book or other products). Attorneys don't have exclusive access to critical thinking. ~Anachronist (talk) 04:32, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- Do you have recent case law and/or statutes to back up your claims? I doubt it. Attorneys don't rely primarily on logic or common sense--as professionals, they use Legal research from appropriate sources and can easily back it up with citations to show it is the current law. That way they avoid misrepresenting the law, as you have appeared to have done above. I see no evidence you have done proper Legal research before making your claims above. And FYI, I do have a B.A. as a paralegal, but I am not an attorney. But please, prove me wrong. If you have current legal sources that support your claims, let's seem them. --David Tornheim (talk) 09:01, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
- On what basis? Logic and research. The term has been in use long before anyone attempted to trademark it, rendering the trademark invalid (the only validity it would have is if anyone used the term in the context of the company's book or other products). Attorneys don't have exclusive access to critical thinking. ~Anachronist (talk) 04:32, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Anachronist:
- It does appear to be trademarked, based on documents I found from the United States Patent and Trademark Office by using their database search page directing me to TESS:
- Original Trademark of "SPECIFIC CARBOHYDRATE DIET" (abandoned): by Elaine Gottschall filed August 19, 2004, abandoned April 23, 2007
- "SCD" (Active): Registered April 1, 2014
- Owner: Kirkton Press Limited LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY CANADA 396 Grills Road, R.R. #2 Baltimore Ontario CANADA K0K1C0
- "SPECIFIC CARBOHYDRATE DIET" (Active): Registered October 20, 2015
- Owner: Kirkton Press Limited LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY CANADA 396 Grills Road, R.R. #2 Baltimore Ontario CANADA K0K1C0
- See also Justia showing Kirkton Press's two trademarks.
- This appears consistent with the link by Alexbrn and this link, which says:
- Kirkton Press Limited, the owner of the SCD trademark and publisher and copyright owner of the book, Breaking the Vicious Cycle, licenses the use of the SCD trademark and copyright in the book to third parties. Licensees are required to use the trademark and copyright material in a manner which is consistent with the SCD diet and program described in the Breaking the Vicious Cycle book.
- However, there are some instances of use of the trademark and book by third parties who are not licensed or authorized by Kirkton Press and who inaccurately represent the information found in the book. If you have any questions or concerns about whether the information you encounter relating to SCD is, in fact, accurate, please feel free to contact us.
- Kirkton Press is connected to Elaine Gottschall and her family. See [9].
- I'm not sure how this affects us. Are there other similar articles on trademarked diets, medical treatments, etc. that specify such requirements? We obviously handle other trademarked items, like Pepsi, without any big problems I am aware of. The secondary literature does not seem particularly concerned about it, although some of the literature predates the registration. --David Tornheim (talk) 20:05, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- I am sure how this affects us: not in the slightest. The servers are in the USA. Under US fair use law, using a trademark to identify the relevant goods, service, or owner is not an infringement of the owner's rights. If we were selling a competing diet and calling it "SCD", we might have something to worry about. We're writing an encyclopedia, not selling diets. --RexxS (talk) 23:10, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Edit regarding children with autism
It is my understanding that @Beall4: is describing this edit when referring to the "most recent change on the article this morning taking it to completely unfounded allegations" [10]. I invite Beall4 to explain why the edit is a problem. I believe it should be acceptable to revert the edit per WP:BRD if there is any reasonable objection to the new material. I have not reviewed the literature and have no opinion either way at this time. I am simply copying here the concerns that Beall4 expressed to me about the edit and am inviting that discussion to take place here. --David Tornheim (talk) 21:24, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- I also think that it is perfectly reasonable for Beall4 (or any other editor in good standing) to revert an edit that they disagree with – as long as they are then willing to coherently explain that disagreement in line with our policies and guidelines. That is how BRD is meant to work. The discussion part is most likely to revolve around sourcing, so these are the sources added by Alexbrn and removed by Beall4:
- Deisinger JA (2010). Chapter 14: Scientifically unsupported treatments for students with special needs. Advances in special education. Vol. 19. Emerald. p. 220. doi:10.1108/S0270-4013(2010)0000019017. ISBN 978-1-84855-668-3. ISSN 0270-4013.
{{cite book}}
:|work=
ignored (help); Unknown parameter|editors=
ignored (|editor=
suggested) (help) - Levy SE, Hyman SL (2005). "Novel treatments for autistic spectrum disorders". Ment Retard Dev Disabil Res Rev (Review). 11 (2): 131–142. doi:10.1002/mrdd.20062. PMID 15977319.
- Deisinger JA (2010). Chapter 14: Scientifically unsupported treatments for students with special needs. Advances in special education. Vol. 19. Emerald. p. 220. doi:10.1108/S0270-4013(2010)0000019017. ISBN 978-1-84855-668-3. ISSN 0270-4013.
- Perhaps it would be a reasonable starting point to examine whether these sources are: (1) acceptable to MEDRS; (2) the best we can find on the topic; (3) sufficiently vital to meet WP:DUE; and (4) adequately summarised in the edit by Alexbrn. --RexxS (talk) 02:04, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- Yes. In my view especially since we are making mention of Gottschall's claim that this diet helps children with autism, we should be reflecting what independent RS says about this. Note that in play here are both biomedical assertions (about effectiveness), and non-biomedical ones (what the claim is; how it seems like pseudoscience). Alexbrn (talk) 04:21, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Verification issue
David Tornheim: You have added some text about Gottschall's book, saying that "instead" of providing supporting data, she "described the theory of how restricting diet might reduce gut inflation associated with these conditions". Where in the cited source is this contained? Alexbrn (talk) 08:25, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- In reference hou second paragraph of the section "Specific Carbohydrate Diet":
- The underlying theory of the SCD is that disaccharide and polysaccharide carbohydrates are poorly absorbed in the human intestinal tract, resulting in bacterial and yeast overgrowth and subsequent overproduction of mucus. These effects are hypothesized to result in small bowel injury thus perpetuating the cycle of carbohydrate malabsorption and intestinal injury.46 Strict adherence to the diet is recommended, because any exposure to restricted carbohydrates is hypothesized to worsen bacterial overgrowth and exacerbate mucosal damage. There are significant variations in diet recommendations within the community of SCD and related diets. Although not as restrictive as the SCD, the gluten-free diet has also been advocated by some patients to treat IBD. For the purposes of this review, we focus on the specific recommendations as described in Breaking the Vicious Cycle.46
- 46. Gottschall, E. Breaking the vicious cycle: intestinal health through diet. Kirkton, Baltimore; 2012
- --David Tornheim (talk) 08:32, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- Yeah, where is this "instead of" idea? The quote you've just given is not about Gottschall's approach to the book (in fact the source does not discuss the book at all). Remember WP:V is a core policy and WP:SYN is prohibited. Alexbrn (talk) 08:36, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
in fact the source does not discuss the book at all
. That's not true. The source specifically says, "The SCD was popularized for the treatment of IBD by biochemist Elaine Gottschall through her lay book Breaking the Vicious Cycle after her daughter was reportedly cured of UC using the SCD.46". It cites the book as the source as footnote 46 as I showed above. --David Tornheim (talk) 08:44, 14 December 2018 (UTC)- Sorry, you are correct that the source does mention the book (I was looking at the wrong source). However, what text supports yours? Particular the idea that instead of doing one thing, she did another? Rather to the contrary, the Fitzgibbon source says that "instead" of providing supporting data, she relied on testimonials and newspapers. Alexbrn (talk) 08:49, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- Reply to this is found here: Talk:Specific_carbohydrate_diet#Book_Review_Issue --David Tornheim (talk) 10:10, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry, you are correct that the source does mention the book (I was looking at the wrong source). However, what text supports yours? Particular the idea that instead of doing one thing, she did another? Rather to the contrary, the Fitzgibbon source says that "instead" of providing supporting data, she relied on testimonials and newspapers. Alexbrn (talk) 08:49, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- Yeah, where is this "instead of" idea? The quote you've just given is not about Gottschall's approach to the book (in fact the source does not discuss the book at all). Remember WP:V is a core policy and WP:SYN is prohibited. Alexbrn (talk) 08:36, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
David Tornheim Thank you for removing the "instead of ..." text. That fixes one issue. But I'm still left puzzling. You have put:
Gottshall [sic] described the theory of how restricting diet might reduce gut inflation associated with various medical conditions.
Where is this supported in the source? What is "gut inflation"? It seems your blizzard of editing has left us with a snow drift of issues. Alexbrn (talk) 09:40, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- It comes from the long paragraph quoted above. "gut inflammation" is what this diet and the other diets like it are all about. They are designed to reduce inflammation with people who have Inflammatory Bowel Disorder (IBD). Bowel=gut. I was just using "gut", a lay person's term for intestine or bowel. Mucus described above is caused by inflammation. There may be a better way to summarize the long paragraph (or similar writing in the other review(s)) without using jargon that will confuse lay people. --David Tornheim (talk) 09:52, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Book Review Issue
I do not have access to the book review (Fitzgibbon EJ (1998). "Breaking the Vicious Cycle. Intestinal Health Through Diet". Journal of Nutritional & Environmental Medicine (Book review). 8 (1): 86.). If you have information on how I might view it, that would be much appreciated. To be honest, I am not convinced the book review is good WP:RS for the claim, especially if we are requiring WP:MEDRS in so much of this article, and the book review is 20 years old. [Although Gottshall's book is older, I do not know if it was updated.] Can you explain why you feel the book review is good RS for the sentence about "cures"--especially when it is not mentioned at all the in the review articles that talk about her work somewhat extensively? --David Tornheim (talk) 09:43, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- A scholarly book review is a good RS for what is (and what is not) actually in a book; the words that the author used. And of course reviews are necessarily contemporaneous. What claims about biomedicine are we sourcing to it? I'm a bit surprising you're working with this paragraph without having the sources used - a library will get you access to it. Alexbrn (talk) 09:53, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- In your edit, you added the text,
Gottschall asserted that the diet could "cure" a number of medical conditions, yet provided no medical evidence to support these assertions.
That sure sounds like a medical claim to me. --David Tornheim (talk) 10:15, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- In your edit, you added the text,
Grammar
David Tornheim - you have altered the article to say
The diet was later re-popularized by biochemist Elaine Gottschall, the mother of one of Haas's patients, in her 1996 book Breaking the Vicious Circle, whose daughter was reported to have been cured of ulcerative colitis by SCD
Yet books don't have daughters do they. Alexbrn (talk) 08:31, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Fixed Corrected by this edit. Thanks for noticing that. --David Tornheim (talk) 08:40, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- The page is now broken, with markup errors.[11] Alexbrn (talk) 08:41, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Fixed by this edit by Isaidnoway at 8:43. Thanks, Isaidnoway. --David Tornheim (talk) 08:48, 14 December 2018 (UTC) [revised 09:14, 14 December 2018 (UTC)]
- Thanks, Isaidnoway --David Tornheim (talk) 09:16, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
"Cured" in two years?
We currently say:
Gottshall's daughter was reported to been cured of ulcerative colitis in two years by SCD.
This is essentially an implication-heavy anecdote (even with that "reportedly"). I think it is undue. Alexbrn (talk) 08:44, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- It's in two of the sources. Why is it undue? --David Tornheim (talk) 08:46, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- Because it's effectively a case report, and case reports usually fail WP:MEDRS. Elevating the report of a single case to prominence is undue (we exclude whole clinical trials with large numbers of subjects). Alexbrn (talk) 08:51, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- It's unverifiable. Self-reported, unreliable and if it isn't WP:UNDUE then we should say something like "Gottshall claims her daughter etc. ". -Roxy, the dog. wooF 12:49, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- The trouble is, as Fitzgibbon points out, anybody in the field seeing this claim will know that the patient getting better is not necessarily a result of the SCD; but our lay readership won't necessarily suss that. This is why I call it "implication-heavy". Alexbrn (talk) 12:53, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- It's unverifiable. Self-reported, unreliable and if it isn't WP:UNDUE then we should say something like "Gottshall claims her daughter etc. ". -Roxy, the dog. wooF 12:49, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- Because it's effectively a case report, and case reports usually fail WP:MEDRS. Elevating the report of a single case to prominence is undue (we exclude whole clinical trials with large numbers of subjects). Alexbrn (talk) 08:51, 14 December 2018 (UTC)