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Contents
Protected edit requests
I've noticed that, with many protected edit requests, editors brush them off with a request to be more specific, even if it's reasonably clear what the person wants. It seems to me like an easy way out, but if an editor can't be bothered spending time on the request, why answer it at all? Is there a better way of dealing with these requests?--Jack Upland (talk) 00:28, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
- WP:SOFIXIT. If you come across a request that you can act on, act on it, even if someone previously has declined to. No one will stop you from making Wikipedia better. --Jayron32 01:34, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
- Well, that's nice when it works, but it's not helpful if you can't make the edit or if you saw the request after someone else already brushed them off. OTOH, stale requests sitting around for weeks isn't good, either. It's not easy. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:30, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
- I think one problem is that some editors think they're doing everyone a favour dismissing these pesky edit requests. I would rather see a stale request than one summarily dismissed, especially one dismissed for a spurious or inadequate reason. Wikipedia isn't perfect, and it won't be made better by dismissing feedback. Alternatively, rather than dismissing feedback, it would be better for protected pages not to allow edit requests at all. What is the point of asking for feedback if the feedback is bureaucratically dismissed??? Do editors just like frustrating other people?--Jack Upland (talk) 11:00, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
- Well, that's nice when it works, but it's not helpful if you can't make the edit or if you saw the request after someone else already brushed them off. OTOH, stale requests sitting around for weeks isn't good, either. It's not easy. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:30, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
- No editor should be faulted for expecting requesters to follow the instructions clearly outlined at Wikipedia:Edit requests. They essentially say that the requester should do all of the editor work except the actual edit operation, including all writing, placement, and identification of any required references (I might be persuaded to format the necessary CS1 citations given links, but that's as far as I'm going). If the instructions are inappropriate or unhelpful, work to change them (I would oppose). They should be seen as representing current community consensus on the matter, which apparently is that edit requests are for IPs who know how to edit Wikipedia.
Many edit requests should be simple discussion threads instead; use the process as it was designed to be used. There would be nothing wrong with the responder suggesting a discussion thread instead, as they close the edit request as "not done". For that matter, the responder could convert the edit request to a discussion thread with a change of heading and removal of the template, although the requester might have difficulty finding it in that case. In the case of IP requesters, IPs can't be pinged, so the responder would have to post on their user talk page and hope they read it there. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:16, 24 November 2016 (UTC)- While it might follow the "instructions", it is clear that this is a faulty mechanism, which is worse than having nothing at all. Nothing at all seems the best option at the moment.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:21, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
- I don't see what's faulty. As far as I can tell it works as well as it could for its intended purpose, which is to allow IP editors to edit semi-protected articles, if only by proxy. It is not meant to be a way for readers to request changes to articles, that can be done in a discussion thread. The only issue I see is the case of long-term semi-protection at an article with very low activity, so low that no one is likely to see the discussion thread and respond to it. My take on that is that (1) no solution is perfect, and (2) the reader is free to register an account and try their hand at Wikipedia editing. It's accepted that registration has its benefits. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:03, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
- Registering an account doesn't help at all if you don't actually know how to make the change, and it's not enough if the page requires an admin or template editor. I believe that I once had an edit request declined on a template that was fully protected, on the grounds that I didn't provide a cut-and-paste copy of the code – which I didn't, because I didn't know how to write it. So your solution is, at best, incomplete. IMO it would have made a lot more sense to leave the request open until a knowledgeable and interested admin or template editor could have handled it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:19, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
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- That's exactly the point I was making. Some editors simply decline requests for the weakest of reasons, because that is the path of least resistance. Sure, you can heap the blame on the person who makes the request for imperfectly following procedures they are unlikely to understand. Or you can put the responsibility onto other editors who could follow up the request after it has been declined. Or you could put blame where it lies: on the mindless bureaucrats who apparently think they have completed a "job" or made Wikipedia a better place simply by rejecting a suggestion to improve the encyclopedia.--Jack Upland (talk) 12:31, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
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- Registering an account doesn't help at all if you don't actually know how to make the change, and it's not enough if the page requires an admin or template editor. I believe that I once had an edit request declined on a template that was fully protected, on the grounds that I didn't provide a cut-and-paste copy of the code – which I didn't, because I didn't know how to write it. So your solution is, at best, incomplete. IMO it would have made a lot more sense to leave the request open until a knowledgeable and interested admin or template editor could have handled it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:19, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
- I don't see what's faulty. As far as I can tell it works as well as it could for its intended purpose, which is to allow IP editors to edit semi-protected articles, if only by proxy. It is not meant to be a way for readers to request changes to articles, that can be done in a discussion thread. The only issue I see is the case of long-term semi-protection at an article with very low activity, so low that no one is likely to see the discussion thread and respond to it. My take on that is that (1) no solution is perfect, and (2) the reader is free to register an account and try their hand at Wikipedia editing. It's accepted that registration has its benefits. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:03, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
- While it might follow the "instructions", it is clear that this is a faulty mechanism, which is worse than having nothing at all. Nothing at all seems the best option at the moment.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:21, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
Need opinions on canvassing vs. notices
I spend almost all my time on-wiki working on featured articles, either writing content or reviewing candidates. There's a MoS discussion, here, that I'd like to post a note about at WT:FAC because a lot of content writers would see it there, and I think it would be good to get more input on this (and other) MoS discussions from experienced content writers. A previous note of mine at WT:FAC on a related MoS discussion was considered by at least one editor, SMcCandlish, to be canvassing, so I asked him how I could leave a neutrally worded notice to let editors at FAC know of the discussion, without running afoul of WP:CANVAS. His response is that any such notice would be canvassing no matter how I worded it: "Quotation formatting is not an intrinsically FA-related subject, so it would be taken as canvassing of a special interest group regardless, by various participants". This doesn't seem to me to be in line with the intent of WP:CANVAS, but I don't want to unilaterally annoy a MoS regular and get into a fight over this. Can I get opinions here on whether it's OK to post the kind of notice I would like to post? Or if in fact SMcCandlish is right that no such notice is possible within the rules? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:21, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
- Don't be concerned with annoying me in particular. The constant personalized character assassination against me and other MoS regulars by the WP:FAC clique, and the general "screw the MoS, let's start our own anti-MoS" campaigning at WT:FAC, and farcical scapegoating by them of MoS people for things that have nothing at all to do with MoS at all, like infobox disputes (MoS is entirely neutral on infoboxes) has pretty much driven me to the verge of quitting this project. I basically don't respond to anything I don't get an e-mail about, and I may even turn that off. The reason to not try to canvass FAC people to an MoS discussion that has nothing in particular to do with FAC is the same reason to not canvass any other special interest to your preferred side of any discussion on WP. The last time that happened (and at least 3 or 4 people flagged it for canvassing, with me being the last one to do so), about two months ago, the result was predictably a big histrionic, demonizing flamewar from which no consensus resulted on anything, because it was not about the merits of the discussion, but about two camps of conflicting personalities. I repeat what I already said in earlier discussion with you: Doing the same thing again and expecting different results isn't a rational or useful approach. People who actually care about the discussion on its own merits already know about it or will through normal channels like WP:FRS and individual discussion. A particular enclave of anti-MoS pitchfork bearers do not need to recruited again to light yet another witch-burning pyre. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 02:42, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
- My reading of WP:APPNOTE suggests that it would be inappropriate to post a message regarding threaded discussions at WT:FAC. FAC people are not 'directly related to the topic under discussion', and from SMcC's response, seem very much more like they might be 'selected on the basis of their opinions'. --Tagishsimon (talk) 03:08, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
- It's going to be rare, if ever, that a MoS discussion is going to relate to FAs more than any other area of the encyclopedia. However, FA writers and reviewers are (we hope) experts on how to write and lay out high quality articles. A MoS discussion on how to format a set index article is clearly not of particular interest to FA writers, but a discussion about, say, the structure of article leads is one where they could be expected to have useful opinions. I suspect many at FAC don't watch the MoS pages because there's a lot of tedious (but useful) work that goes on there that doesn't interest them, but I think the input of anyone interested from that group could be helpful. It's not that plenty of good content writers don't already watch MoS pages, but more input tends to lead to longer-lasting consensus. In this particular case I don't plan to post at WT:FAC unless there's a clear consensus here that it would be OK to do so, but I would like to say that I have no idea if anyone who might see such a post would care, or which way they would !vote. I haven't !voted myself and still haven't decided on the issue. Re SMcCandlish's comments about anti-MoS pitchfork bearers; he's right that there are strong feelings and harsh words but that's not a good reason to avoid discussion. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:40, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
- None of which alters the price of bread w.r.t. WP:APPNOTE. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:42, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
- APPNOTE says the intent must be "to improve the quality of the discussion by broadening participation to more fully achieve consensus", which is the case here; and that notifications are inappropriate if the intention is "influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way", which is not the case here. I acknowledge that the phrase you quote, "directly related to the topic under discussion", allows the argument that FAC is not a valid place to leave a notification, but given that MoS issues are mostly about form and not content, wouldn't that reading imply one could almost never notify anyone about MoS discussions? I think that leaves the encyclopedia worse off. We should be trying to get more inclusive on discussions that impact every editor, as the MoS does. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:33, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
- None of which alters the price of bread w.r.t. WP:APPNOTE. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:42, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
- It's going to be rare, if ever, that a MoS discussion is going to relate to FAs more than any other area of the encyclopedia. However, FA writers and reviewers are (we hope) experts on how to write and lay out high quality articles. A MoS discussion on how to format a set index article is clearly not of particular interest to FA writers, but a discussion about, say, the structure of article leads is one where they could be expected to have useful opinions. I suspect many at FAC don't watch the MoS pages because there's a lot of tedious (but useful) work that goes on there that doesn't interest them, but I think the input of anyone interested from that group could be helpful. It's not that plenty of good content writers don't already watch MoS pages, but more input tends to lead to longer-lasting consensus. In this particular case I don't plan to post at WT:FAC unless there's a clear consensus here that it would be OK to do so, but I would like to say that I have no idea if anyone who might see such a post would care, or which way they would !vote. I haven't !voted myself and still haven't decided on the issue. Re SMcCandlish's comments about anti-MoS pitchfork bearers; he's right that there are strong feelings and harsh words but that's not a good reason to avoid discussion. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:40, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
- My reading of WP:APPNOTE suggests that it would be inappropriate to post a message regarding threaded discussions at WT:FAC. FAC people are not 'directly related to the topic under discussion', and from SMcC's response, seem very much more like they might be 'selected on the basis of their opinions'. --Tagishsimon (talk) 03:08, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
- I have no problem including anyone who will be there to improve MoS rather than undermine it. Meta debates about MoS belong in a separate venue from MoS talk pages, such as, I guess, WP:VPP or WP:VPR. MoS talk pages are for discussion about how to improve MoS, just as article talk pages are about how to improve the respective articles. On MoS talk pages, those meta discussions are equivalent to WP:NOTFORUM violations and should be prohibited. Absent such prohibition, I don't think we need to go out of our way to invite such violations, although we can't prevent people from watching and violating. The bottom line question for me, then, is whether FAC people in fact have tended to engage in that kind of discussion on MoS talk pages, and I don't know the answer since I have no experience in that area. I haven't known McCandlish to distort or misrepresent such things, much. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:48, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
- Mandruss, if I understand you correctly you're talking about SMcCandlish's comments about some users being anti-MoS. Do you have an opinion about the original question? Is it OK to post notices about MoS discussions to WT:FAC, and by extension to other talk pages that aren't focused on topics (e.g. WT:GAN or WT:PR)? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:03, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
- @Mike Christie: Perhaps I'm just thick, but I thought his comments were relevant to the original question. If FAC has shown a pattern of bringing MoS opposition to MoS talk pages, my opinion is no. That is not per p&g, but it appears that p&g does not give a clear answer so I'm left to my judgment. Disclaimer: I don't claim to be an expert in this area, but I think I have a handle on the WP political environment. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:03, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
- OK, now I understand the point you're making. But even if it were true that FAC regulars had such a pattern, surely that's not a reason not to notify them? After all, a proposal at WT:MOS to, say, severely limit the size of sports-related navboxes would be almost certain to attract opposition from the affected Wikiprojects, but that wouldn't be a reason not to notify them. Would someone notifying a sports Wikiproject be canvassing? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:21, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
- You really don't want to drop this stick, do you, Mike? In your scenario, the sports wikiproject would be 'directly related to the topic under discussion' and so it would, per WP:APPNOTE, be appropriate to notify them. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:31, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
- OK, I'll drop it. I'm surprised by the response, and I wish more people had expressed an opinion, but we can leave it at that. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:38, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
- You really don't want to drop this stick, do you, Mike? In your scenario, the sports wikiproject would be 'directly related to the topic under discussion' and so it would, per WP:APPNOTE, be appropriate to notify them. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:31, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
- OK, now I understand the point you're making. But even if it were true that FAC regulars had such a pattern, surely that's not a reason not to notify them? After all, a proposal at WT:MOS to, say, severely limit the size of sports-related navboxes would be almost certain to attract opposition from the affected Wikiprojects, but that wouldn't be a reason not to notify them. Would someone notifying a sports Wikiproject be canvassing? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:21, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
- @Mike Christie: Perhaps I'm just thick, but I thought his comments were relevant to the original question. If FAC has shown a pattern of bringing MoS opposition to MoS talk pages, my opinion is no. That is not per p&g, but it appears that p&g does not give a clear answer so I'm left to my judgment. Disclaimer: I don't claim to be an expert in this area, but I think I have a handle on the WP political environment. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:03, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
- Mandruss, if I understand you correctly you're talking about SMcCandlish's comments about some users being anti-MoS. Do you have an opinion about the original question? Is it OK to post notices about MoS discussions to WT:FAC, and by extension to other talk pages that aren't focused on topics (e.g. WT:GAN or WT:PR)? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:03, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
- I'm kind of underwhelmed by the reasons given here. AFAICT they are:
- FAC regulars frequently disagree with MOS regulars in style matters (debatable, especially since editors such as Dank, SlimVirgin, and Tony1 have historically been among the most prolific contributors to both pages.)
- FAC regulars don't have sufficient respect for the MOS (e.g., the "anti-MOS" comments).
- FAC regulars aren't a subject area, so you can't invite them to anything at all.
- This is claimed even though changes to the MOS affect them far more than anyone else. They may have to decline candidates and send previously approved articles through FAR as a result of this discussion, but they should not be told that the discussion is happening.
- In fact, the underlying claim is that no group of people (except perhaps WP:WikiProject Manual of Style) can be invited to any discussion about general style matters (e.g., the best way to handle quotations), because no "general" style matter could be "specific" to any group of editors.
- Mike, a more appropriate example would have been a proposal at WT:MOS to severely limit the size of all the navboxes, but it happens that the sports navboxes are the ones most affected (because nearly all the others are smaller). Can you notify the sports-related WikiProjects, on the grounds that their work is affected, or must you leave them ignorant of this discussion on the grounds that it's not "specific" to them?
- FAC shouldn't be informed about this RFC, because if they Truly Cared™, then they'd already be watching the RFC pages or the main MOS page (or all the MOS pages), or would have just known somehow or another.
- Multiple FAC regulars participated in a previous discussion on an identical(!) topic, but we don't want them back, so don't tell them that we're having this discussion again. It doesn't matter if WP:APPNOTE (heretofore only quoted to claim that the entire guideline militates against letting them know about this discussion) directly says that "Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics)" can be/should be invited them to this discussion; we don't want them and their disagreeable opinions.
- I'm not impressed with these reasons. FAC people are disproportionately affected by changes to the MOS. It is therefore reasonable for them to be informed about what's going on. In fact, I wouldn't consider it unreasonable for some FAC regular to post a weekly update on changes to and discussions about the MOS and all the style-related RFCs so that group knows what's going on. I put this in the same category as transcluding {{cent}} on a WikiProject page (which FAC might also want to do): if a group wants to know what's going on, then there's no rule against them organizing themselves to find out what interests them. And if their "organization" looks like "Mike (or the FAC coordinators, or whoever) regularly tell us about anything that might affect FAs", then that's okay. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:18, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
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- To whatever extent your comments refer to mine, mine are quite simple. 1. Anti-MoS sentiments in discussions about improving MoS are off topic, wrong venue, and disruptive. This is a well-known problem. 2. Repeated violators needn't be accommodated. 3. I don't know whether the group in question are repeated violators, but that is the only question in my mind. McC says they are, if I read him correctly. That could be proven to my satisfaction with ten or so diffs. 4. I welcome constructive participation in any discussion, anywhere, on any topic. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:51, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
- I think that you may have developed an incomplete picture of the relationship between FAC and MOS people. FAC editors follow and enforce the MOS more completely and precisely than any other editors. Multiple FAC regulars are regular, long-time contributors to the MOS. I doubt you would find anyone who regularly engages in the FAC process who would claim to be "anti-MOS" – "anti-stupid-stuff-in-MOS", sure (I hope that sentiment is widespread), but not actually "anti-MOS".
- What could easily be demonstrated is that some (not all, probably not even most) FAC editors have disagreed with SMcCandlish at some point over the years on various style guidelines. I've both agreed and disagreed with him myself over the years. But "disagreeing with one person who likes to hang out at WT:MOS", even if it happens consistently, is not actually the same thing as being "anti-MOS".
- I am making some assumptions; I'm assuming, for example, that Mike intends to post a note at WT:FAC that is nearly identical to the one that SMcCandlish posted about this same subject at WT:NPOV back in August (and at MOS:ICON, and at IMAGES, and at NOR – I think I'll stop looking now), except instead of saying that, in his opinion, the size of quotation marks was a matter of DUE weight or that it was like an image, it would say something about a change possibly triggering the need to re-check some old FAs. But I'm having a very hard time understanding why such notices would actually be problematic for anyone (except possibly someone who thinks that he'll "lose" an RFC if more experienced editors find out about it).
- (Oh, and if you're interested: I'm anti-pull quote myself. If it were up to me, all of those templates would have been deleted long ago and replaced with plain old blockquote tags.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:27, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
- I don't know how many differemt ways I can say it, or how I can say it any more clearly. I know nothing about FAC-MoS, I have made that fact crystal clear, but I read McC's comments as saying they were a part of the problem I describe. My comments were completely contingent on the accuracy of his comments and my interpretation of them, and I went out of my way to underscore the word If to make sure I wasn't misunderstood. I guess I should have blown it up to 200% and bolded it too, maybe put arrows and stars around it. Can we make text blink, or beep? I commented that I have not known McC to distort such things. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:30, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
- To whatever extent your comments refer to mine, mine are quite simple. 1. Anti-MoS sentiments in discussions about improving MoS are off topic, wrong venue, and disruptive. This is a well-known problem. 2. Repeated violators needn't be accommodated. 3. I don't know whether the group in question are repeated violators, but that is the only question in my mind. McC says they are, if I read him correctly. That could be proven to my satisfaction with ten or so diffs. 4. I welcome constructive participation in any discussion, anywhere, on any topic. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:51, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
- It's probably a matter of politeness for someone at MOS talk to ping FAC talk if an important topic is under way. Tony (talk) 08:47, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Mike, yes, it's important to let WT:FAC know about proposals likely to affect them. I would suggest WT:GAN and WT:PR too. SarahSV (talk) 00:49, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Wikignome-work if anyone is keen
Hi all, one of the things we try to do with featured articles is get them on the main page when there is a significant birthday or anniversary or somesuch. Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/pending is a page we have for flagging significant dates for when something might be good to go on the main page (though it still needs a proper nomination down the track). Hence the page just serves as an informal placeholder or reminder for later in the year. Anyhoo, I am sure that a stack of articles listed at Wikipedia:Featured articles that haven't been on the Main Page will have significant dates that no-one has logged at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/pending yet. If anyone has some spare time and wants to check these featured articles for sginifcant anniversary or birthdates and place them on the calendar at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/pending that would be hugely appreciated. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:22, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks Cas, and I agree ... but also see the page Wikipedia:Featured articles that haven't been on the Main Page/Date connection (WP:FADC). People can take anything from that page and add it to WP:TFAP (the pending page) if they want to make a special request, but it's not really necessary ... if it's on FADC, we'll get to it eventually. What we really need is things added to TFAP that don't already show up at FADC. - Dank (push to talk) 23:30, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Chris will want to see this. - Dank (push to talk) 23:32, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks Cas. The date connection page allows us to pick articles with date connections even when they aren't nominated. Of course, if someone wants to nominate an article (with or without a date connection) at TFA, that would be wonderful. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:55, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
Happy Thanksgiving
RightCowLeftCoast (talk) has given you a Turkey! Turkeys promote WikiLove and hopefully this has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a turkey, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy Thanksgiving!
To everyone, I would like to extend the warmest of seasons greetings and wish everyone a happy Thanksgiving. Spread the goodness of turkey by adding {{Thanksgiving Turkey}} to their talk page with a friendly message. |
List of internet slang acronyms
I would like to ask if it would be appropriate to create the page List of internet slang acronyms (or simply List of internet acronyms). I was surprised to notice that there is no such list, when this whole encyclopedia is created by the "web fauna", most of them knowing a good number of internet acronyms. — Ark25 (talk)
- Because Internet slang already links to wiktionary:Appendix:English internet slang? :) --Malyacko (talk) 00:46, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
Combining Grapheme Joiner
Hi everyone. I just came across Template:CGJ, which is still pre-{{documentation}}. I would change it, but not confident that I can check whether the invisible CGJ character would still be there at the end of the day!
What's more, the example given on only article that it's used on (Combining Grapheme Joiner) doesn't seem to show any difference for me on Firefox or Chrome – perhaps someone with more knowledge in this area would be able to say whether it's still in use, or if modern browsers have made it unnecessary (is it completely redundant?). Perhaps SVG pictures demonstrating the problem that this character was designed to solve would be better than relying on each browser to try to duplicate this, which would then mean the template could safely be deleted.
Finally, are there any conventions surrounding the use of non-visible characters in wikicode? I seem to remember a bot that checked mainspace articles for them (things like stray RTL characters etc.), but can't find any policy pages. ‑‑YodinT 14:43, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
- Documentation template added. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[1] 18:04, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
What the hell is wrong with GAN?
I've literally been waiting five months for a review; I'm going to be busy for much of December, but apparently, there's no way whatsoever to even ask for a review rather rapidly approaching half a year to be reviewed before someone goes on wikibreak. It's frustrating, to say the least. Adam Cuerden (talk) 15:11, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
- @Adam Cuerden: You may be interested in the recent feature in the Signpost. --Izno (talk) 15:25, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Prepare Yourselves
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Everyone get ready. A Wikipedia raid is happening Thursday, December 8th by feminists and the BBC. Constantly check your favorite articles; make sure they stay accurate. I'm not saying that feminism is bad or to revert all changes by feminists, I'm just saying that we'll be seeing a large user influx, which could bring many false edits. AA Quantum (talk) 22:34, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
- What makes you think that the odd website ageofshitlords.com is a credible source for any claim that such a conspiracy is afoot? -- Hoary (talk) 22:50, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
- Come on now, I was just about to remove this under WP:DFTT. --Majora (talk) 22:51, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
- You wouldn't meet any resistance from me, Majora. The website does seem to be a mere pile of what we may be in, or may soon enter, the age of. -- Hoary (talk) 00:05, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- A raid by feminist activists would not be a "large user influx".--Jack Upland (talk) 00:12, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- You wouldn't meet any resistance from me, Majora. The website does seem to be a mere pile of what we may be in, or may soon enter, the age of. -- Hoary (talk) 00:05, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- Come on now, I was just about to remove this under WP:DFTT. --Majora (talk) 22:51, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
- I, for one, welcome our new feminist overladies. AA Quantum refers to the forthcoming BBC 100 Women editathon, to which all are invited. There is a BBC 100 Women redlist up & running, courtesy of the subversives who hang out at WikiProject Women in Red. When will it end, you ask? Well, probably when the ratio of male to female biographies is better than the current 1,421,449 to 237,676, or 83.28% to 16.72% - see WHGI. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:01, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- Let's see... the last two articles OP edited were Ku Klux Klan and Swastika. Now, those edits are innocuous enough by themselves, but combined with panicking over women being out of the kitchen? And citing an alt-right blog as supposed justification for said hissy fit? Ian.thomson (talk) 02:23, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The SVG Debate: Inkscape or Not
The template: Template:Noinkscape doesn't give any reasoning for why the otherwise wikipedia-endorsed Inkscape is worse than text-editors. It also doesn't explain how editing Inkscape inhibits future use of text-editors. Can anyone help me understand and solve this issue? I imagine that adapting Inkscape could fix this problem. @Prccy27, Brythones, and Gage: Could people who worked on the 2016 Electoral College map weigh in on this? Thanks! Houdinipeter (talk) 23:38, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
- @Sameboat: Do you want to comment on the purpose of {{Noinkscape}} which you created? At any rate, the template appears to only be used at File:SacramentoKings.svg. Johnuniq (talk) 03:34, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- The Commons version of the template is in rather wider use.
I expect it's mostly an objection to the bloat Inkscape adds if you save as an "Inkscape SVG" instead of "Plain SVG". In the case of File:SacramentoKings.svg, it doubled the svg's size. —Cryptic 03:47, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- That makes sense, thanks. I have uploaded a couple of SVGs created using Inkscape and I wondered which of the options should be used—I think I used "Plain SVG". Johnuniq (talk) 04:00, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- I have loads of reasons besides the file size exported from Inkscape being substantially larger and polluted by useless metadata and attributes which define the default value (think of it adding
<span style="color:#000000;font-weight:normal;font-size:normal;font-family:Liberation Sans,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Text here</span>
for every single section of text, Inkscape is doing something worse than that). For SacramentoKings.svg specifically, Inkscape's default curve tool only supports editing with cubic Bézier curve command. If Inkscape detects other curve commands, namely quadratic Bézier curve and elliptical arc curve, upon editing the path, it will instantly convert them to cubic Bézier curve command. The issue with cubic Bézier curve command is that adjusting its control points for creating a perfect circular arc is extremely cumbersome for all the irrational decimals, even if the angles of the entry and exit points are pointing to the cardinal directions. For example, if I want to draw a circular arc from (0,0) to (100,100) clockwise, turning 90 degree and 100px radius, this is what the elliptical arc curve command will look like:A 100,100 0 0,1 100,100
. And this is what cubic Bézier curve command will end up after conversion by Inkscape:C 55.228475,0 100,44.771525 100,100
. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 02:54, 1 December 2016 (UTC) - Additionally, "no Inkscape" also includes Inkscape's "Plain SVG" format which still contains all the default-value-attribute craps and polluted curve commands issue. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 04:21, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- Any suggestions on alternatives? Inkscape is pretty nice to use. Johnuniq (talk) 04:50, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- Just learn writing SVG/XML codes in Notepad. I have absolutely no objection if you're drawing something like this, but for most vector diagrams, text editor is my only answer. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 05:01, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- Notepad!! My editor can do this in a single search-and-replace. Johnuniq (talk) 05:09, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- I had no trouble making all these topological diagrams in Notepad++. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 05:17, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- I could have done the same in VisualEditor with 2 clicks... --Izno (talk) 13:34, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- Notepad!! My editor can do this in a single search-and-replace. Johnuniq (talk) 05:09, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- Just learn writing SVG/XML codes in Notepad. I have absolutely no objection if you're drawing something like this, but for most vector diagrams, text editor is my only answer. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 05:01, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- Any suggestions on alternatives? Inkscape is pretty nice to use. Johnuniq (talk) 04:50, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- I have loads of reasons besides the file size exported from Inkscape being substantially larger and polluted by useless metadata and attributes which define the default value (think of it adding
- That makes sense, thanks. I have uploaded a couple of SVGs created using Inkscape and I wondered which of the options should be used—I think I used "Plain SVG". Johnuniq (talk) 04:00, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- The Commons version of the template is in rather wider use.
I expect it's mostly an objection to the bloat Inkscape adds if you save as an "Inkscape SVG" instead of "Plain SVG". In the case of File:SacramentoKings.svg, it doubled the svg's size. —Cryptic 03:47, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- Having used Inkscape and other vector programs, I do agree that Inkscape does like to "take over" a saved SVG into its own format since it has a lot of non-standard SVG extensions (good for creation, bad for revisions). I think we should be clear in the language of this template that should explain this issue and to add that it should only be applied to SVG images that were created outside of Inkscape (such that Inkscape editing doesn't screw them up). It should not be taken that we do not accept Inkscape-made SVGs, just that non-IS SVGs should not be edited by IS. (That said, I haven't tested enough to know if a program like Adobe Illustrator has similar "take over" actions on the SVGs it produces) --MASEM (t) 15:37, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- @Masem: The code neatness of SVG exported from Ai is slightly better than Inkscape, but there can still be many issues with these SVG files if the original work wasn't really prepared with SVG specification in mind. Commons:Help:Illustrator details the issues as much as possible. To me personally, the worst offender has to be intentionally not translating text-align setting of "center" and "right" to
text-anchor
property ("middle" and "end" respectively) but replacing with translating the text position which almost guarantees poorly positioned text after uploaded to Wikimedia. Because of the Creative Cloud barricade, that means most of our Ai contributors still stick with the older versions of the vector application and they will never ever receive any update if Adobe finally has decided to improve its support for SVG. In other words, they will be highly tempted to convert all text to outlines before exporting SVG just for neat presentation on Wikimedia but hell for revision and localization. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 01:10, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
- @Masem: The code neatness of SVG exported from Ai is slightly better than Inkscape, but there can still be many issues with these SVG files if the original work wasn't really prepared with SVG specification in mind. Commons:Help:Illustrator details the issues as much as possible. To me personally, the worst offender has to be intentionally not translating text-align setting of "center" and "right" to