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Contents
Gross and Net
Where did we get the terms "gross" and "net" to describe competing budgets? That's not what those terms mean in financing. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 11:39, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- This was described and discussed in the RfC above. Normally, these terms are applied to the evaluation of income. However, they can also be applied to budgets, particularly an organization's operating budget. In the film industry, this directly translates to the production budget. The gross production budget would be all expenditures without taking any deductions, tax reimbursements, etc., into account. The net production budget, on the other hand, would. I didn't major in finance, but my understanding is that these terms can certainly be applied to budgets as well as income. The reason for the use here is that we sometimes see reliable sources report on the production budget before tax deductions and incentives, while others report on the figure after taking those into account. --GoneIn60 (talk) 14:17, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
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- To me, the infobox should include the final budget while the body of the article should be discussing the "net" budget or "gross" budget idea. You lack context in the infobox and adding multiple budgets with "gross" and "net" just makes it confusing for readers. The average reader isn't likely to understand what that means without context. Hell, I didn't realize what you meant without the context and I've been doing this for 10 years. The infobox shouldn't confuse readers, or force them to read a section just to understand what we're saying. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 14:59, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
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- I can certainly understand that viewpoint. I think the RfC was started as a result of edit-warring over whether the net or gross should go in there. The result was to include both. However, if the side effect of that is causing more confusion for the average reader, then perhaps the proposed solution is overkill and counterproductive. What alternative solutions can you think of? I'm open to revisiting this, considering you've brought up a possible issue that wasn't previously considered. --GoneIn60 (talk) 15:07, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
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- My first question is: How often is this actually used? Are we placing more importance on something that may only affect a dozen film pages (probably the high end films, like comic book movies)?
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- With that, I would think that what they actually paid should be what's in the infobox itself. That's the "final" or "net" budget that they had. Then, in the production section of the article, it should be discussed that a film was originally greenlit with a budget of $325 million, but with tax incentives and rebates in "Australia", the studio was able to reduce the overall cost to $250 million." I mean, we're talking about a sentence or two (unless there is actually a lot of information on it) to provide context to a reader about a film having a large budget than what they actually ended up paying. I just think that including both is going to confuse readers and probably make them assume that we're include "marketing" and the like in the "gross" budget. This in turn could cause people to include more marketing costs in that section, which is against what we say to do. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 15:21, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
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- All good points. Hopefully others involved in the previous discussion will weigh in. Pinging Fru1tbat, Tenebrae, Markbassett, Depauldem, Betty Logan, Cyphoidbomb, NinjaRobotPirate, FilmGuy4444, and Darkwarriorblake.
Note: This is not necessarily an effort to change/challenge the previous consensus, but instead the intent here is to clarify that consensus and possibly consider any new arguments being raised by Bignole. --GoneIn60 (talk) 16:15, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- I've become a big fan of the note[a] thing. You could put that next to a budget to immediately take you to an explanation of it. I missed much of the previous discussion but much like Nole, I don't see the necessity of showing a before and after budget in the infobox. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 18:17, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- Which ultimately brings us back to the original problem though, doesn't it? Take Batman v Superman for example: The Hollywood Reoprter reported that the budget was $250 million "after rebates and incentives", and without them $325 million. So which figure is the "final" budget in this case? Box Office Mojo and pretty much every other source goes with the $250 million figure in this case. If we go with the 325 figure on its own I absolutely guarantee we will have a perennial fight on our hands with IPs changing it back to the BOM figure. Betty Logan (talk) 18:46, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
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- That's what sparked this and even that source is vague. It says "sources put it significantly higher" or "325". Betty, you and I have worked long enough for you to know my feelings about anyone saying "sources". Not to mention that it isn't a confirmation that 325 mill was the original budget, but an estimate based on the knowledge of what taxes and rebates they get where they filmed. That said, the only thing confirmed is that the actual money spent on the film was closer to $250 million, rebates or not. That is the figure that should be in the infobox. Everything else could be explained in the body of the article. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 19:06, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
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- Which ultimately brings us back to the original problem though, doesn't it? Take Batman v Superman for example: The Hollywood Reoprter reported that the budget was $250 million "after rebates and incentives", and without them $325 million. So which figure is the "final" budget in this case? Box Office Mojo and pretty much every other source goes with the $250 million figure in this case. If we go with the 325 figure on its own I absolutely guarantee we will have a perennial fight on our hands with IPs changing it back to the BOM figure. Betty Logan (talk) 18:46, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- I've become a big fan of the note[a] thing. You could put that next to a budget to immediately take you to an explanation of it. I missed much of the previous discussion but much like Nole, I don't see the necessity of showing a before and after budget in the infobox. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 18:17, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- All good points. Hopefully others involved in the previous discussion will weigh in. Pinging Fru1tbat, Tenebrae, Markbassett, Depauldem, Betty Logan, Cyphoidbomb, NinjaRobotPirate, FilmGuy4444, and Darkwarriorblake.
Note: This is not necessarily an effort to change/challenge the previous consensus, but instead the intent here is to clarify that consensus and possibly consider any new arguments being raised by Bignole. --GoneIn60 (talk) 16:15, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
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Indeed "what the final cost of the movie is" proves impossible to define, judging by the long and occasionally heated discussion last month that resulted in the RfC above (after initially spanning several different articles' talk pages). One side argued that the final cost was the actual out-of-pocket expense that the studio physically paid. Another side argued that it was the total cost including any rebates etc. that the studio received. Which is the correct figure? Different people of good will legitimately disagreed. So in this framework, I do think "gross" and "net" are probably the best terms we could use, though if anyone can suggest others, that would be great, too. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:40, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- Further complicating matters is the fact that some states pay tax incentives up front, while others pay it in the form of a rebate after spending has occurred in their state (source). When it's paid up front, there is no "net budget"; both net and gross are the same in that scenario. Perhaps we are stretching things a bit to accommodate a handful of articles where this is an issue. Perhaps the best option is to only state the net budget in the infobox, and allude to the gross budget in the body of the article when applicable (as Bignole suggests). At least in the case of B v S, the net was the figure most often reported, and perhaps this is true across the industry. --GoneIn60 (talk) 21:05, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- Given the $325 million is only mentioned in the Hollywood Reporter article, using the more widley reported $250M is better and using a note here to indicate that THR's "sources" put the actual budget much higher. As for [User:Tenebrae] points above, he is quite right. I think what we failed to recognize in that prior debate is that both sides were right, for what they were arguing. The net budget to the studio is accurate for what it is--their out of pocket cost. And the gross budget is accurate for what it is--the full amount actually spent to make the project (regardless of who is footing the bill). The question becomes--what goes in the infobox? Since passions were strong for each, the compromise of including both was reached. That said, [User:Bignole] makes good points about confusion. It seems to me that people who really want to know the budget will not be confused by mentioning both. But perhaps listing the gross budget first followed by a parenthetical mentioning the incentive amount is better? Depauldem (talk) 21:19, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
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- I'm not sure, since that gives primacy to the gross figure. In any event, I would suggest that editors either accept the RfC — the whole point of which is prevent further arguiment — or start a new RfC. Suggesting, in essence, that one doesn't like the RfC's conclusion and so doesn't want to abide my it isn't really how it works. Start a new RfC if so desired. Otherwise, proper protocol is to abide by the closed consensus. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:24, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
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- I think a case has to be made that this is indeed causing confusion (backed by evidence), and some general agreement among editors who participated in the last RfC that a change is warranted, would be enough to justify a new RfC. Per WP:CCC, this would be an acceptable approach. However, it doesn't appear we're at that point (yet). --GoneIn60 (talk) 21:57, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
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Budget figures with/without tax incentives consensus
Over a week ago Depauldem changed the budget figures of several films from BOM to state or local boards like louisianaeconomicdevelopment.com or FilmL.A. Several were reverted. Today he reverted those pages back to his preferred version. For example, at Dawn of the Planet of the Apes he removed the commonly used $170 million figure from BOM and replaced it with the significantly higher figure of $235 million, with no explanation to the reader. Is the consensus from the RfC above to give both figures still holding? If both figures are not to be used, what is the current consensus? - Gothicfilm (talk) 22:51, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
- If I recall a compromise was reached to provide both the gross and net figure, if sources provide both figures. The rather lengthy debate boiled down to the fact that sources were not consistent: some used the gross figure and others tended to go with the net figure (BOM commonly goes with the net which is why its figures tend to be lower than the FilmLA figures). For example, the 250m figure that BOM has down for Batman Vs Superman is the net figure, but it actually cost $325m before you factor in tax credits. Betty Logan (talk) 23:01, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
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- The consensus is that if we know it, we can include it. BOM is increasingly unreliable because they don't list their source, if any. The trades or major publications are great. Info from Louisiana Economic Development is ideal because they actually audited the film and saw the numbers. What they report is the actuals. Depauldem (talk) 23:02, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
- Also the Planet of the Apes number of $170 is not even close to what the net would be, even after the rebate. We could include the range of $170-$235 if you feel the BOM number is valid. Depauldem (talk) 23:05, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
- If the consensus is to give the budget both with and without the incentives, then that is what should be done. It should not just say $235 million. - Gothicfilm (talk) 23:30, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
- The problem with BOM is that they don't tend to update the figures when further information comes available, so I am not stuck on using it, especially if exact figures are available from HMRC. Do we actually know what the rebate for Dawn of the Planet of Apes was? Betty Logan (talk) 23:32, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
- Also the Planet of the Apes number of $170 is not even close to what the net would be, even after the rebate. We could include the range of $170-$235 if you feel the BOM number is valid. Depauldem (talk) 23:05, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
- The consensus is that if we know it, we can include it. BOM is increasingly unreliable because they don't list their source, if any. The trades or major publications are great. Info from Louisiana Economic Development is ideal because they actually audited the film and saw the numbers. What they report is the actuals. Depauldem (talk) 23:02, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
Parameter addition proposal
I propose adding a parameter "website" such that the left-side label is "Official website" and the data is a url that fills in {{url|...}}. The purpose of this would be to allow a link to a movie's official website. This is a very common thing for modern films to have associated with them, but is sorely missing from the infobox. Please discuss. Jujutsuan (Please notify with {{re}} | talk | contribs) 06:44, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose this has been requested on at least five occasions, and the consensus is always not to include it in the infobox, as it's redundant to the external links section (which does a better job at handling it). Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 07:56, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
- Support every parameter in the infobox is supposed to be redundant to other parts of the article. Adding the official website of a movie is really no different than adding the official website of a country or a populated place, which are included in their infoboxes. Things have changes since 2008/2009, when those discussions took place, and films now almost always have official permanent websites. --Ahecht (TALK
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- I would say the vast majority of films don't actually have official websites. They tend to be limited to Hollywood tentpoles for the most part and they tend to die after a few years. Betty Logan (talk) 19:13, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose The purpose of the infobox is to document essential information about the film, not to provide advertising links i.e. we put information in the infobox to provide readers with a brief overview of the most pertinent information, not to send them on their merry way to another website. Website links currently go in the external links section as recommended by WP:ELYES, and I don't see the point of promoting one particular link over the rest when in many cases the official site provides less useful information than IMDB, for example. Betty Logan (talk) 19:09, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose per previous discussions. All too often these are merely sales sites. Also I work with these in the "External links" section and I see no evidence of "permanence" for them. MarnetteD|Talk 19:17, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose for all of the reasons that are being raised now and have been raised before. I wish the editor who started this thread had read those discussions and responded to the points raised therein rather than, presumably unintentionally, simply pummeling a dead equine. DonIago (talk) 19:24, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose per all who oppose as well above. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:45, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose for the reasons of who come first. --Almicione (talk) 20:44, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose A film's official website is not an intrinsic part of it, unlike a web service, so there is no reason to give it prominence in the infobox, especially since it would not impart more information than if the article was a featured article. Infoboxes are already cluttered enough, no need to add more unessential parameters. Opencooper (talk) 21:08, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose per all the above. - Gothicfilm (talk) 23:13, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
- Weak Oppose – Infoboxes can include external links per WP:ELPOINTS, and in fact, other WikiProjects such as WikiProject Amusement Parks have elected to use them. For this subject matter, however, I agree with the others that typically official film sites tend to fade over time, typically within a few years of the film's home media release. Cluttering infoboxes with dead links wouldn't be very beneficial. --GoneIn60 (talk) 01:48, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. Unnecessary, and liable to be either abused or confusing. An official site belongs in the ELs. Many films do not have official sites, or have more than one official site. Additionally, official sites often are abandoned, go offline, or become dead links within a fairly short amount of time after the film's initial run, making it a very bad idea to add a site link to the infobox. Softlavender (talk) 22:05, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
Template-protected edit request on 11 July 2016
I want to edit IMDb, AllMovie and other external links section I want to add Bollywoodhungama in the list of this section this edit is necessary.
Tuheermeri (talk) 07:11, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Betty Logan (talk) 08:00, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
- The page in question would be Template:infobox film/doc. --Izno (talk) 12:36, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
- Comment Some of those fields were in the infobox (at least IMEb was) last decade. They were removed through WP:CONSENSUS though you will have to search the archives to find the discussion. Please note that they should not be put back in unless and until a new consensus is reached regarding them. The "External links" section is the proper place for them. MarnetteD|Talk 18:43, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Ratings
I just read WP:FILMRATING. Basically it says that showing MPAA ratings in the Infobox would make Wikipedia more United States-centric; and if we can't show MPAA ratings, we can't show any ratings at all!
This is very shortsighted. A great many people would benefit from seeing MPAA ratings in the Infobox. This policy should be reversed, as it is a classic example of Cutting off the nose to spite the face. 23.31.68.26 (talk) 04:04, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
- Hardly. There are more appropriate places for people to find this information, rather than forcing American-specific information on all our readers just because of a few stubborn individuals who continue to insist that we should be doing this. - adamstom97 (talk) 05:29, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
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- It would be pointless and indiscriminate to list all ratings for films on WP. It would add no value to the article. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 08:48, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
Film name parameter seems a bit limited
|film_name=
seems a bit limited to me in scope, with the instructions indicating that Template:Infobox name module should be used, but that template only seems to be relevant to a few Asian langauges, like Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and Vietnamese. There's no instruction for how to deal with other languages, like the myriad of Indian languages (Hindi, Telugu, Tamil, Gujarati, Punjabi, Malayalam, Marathi, Kannada, and so forth.) Typically I wind up using the lang templates (At Premam, {{lang-ml|പ്രേമം}} yields Malayalam: പ്രേമം), which seems like a reasonable use of the parameter. Any thoughts? Can we expand the instructions a little? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 05:00, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
- The "Film name" parameter is supposed to be limited; it was designed as a holder field for Template:Infobox name module. If you want to add further languages then you need to extend Template:Infobox name module. Betty Logan (talk) 05:40, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
- Hi Betty, expanding the module would ultimately be a fruitless pursuit, because absolutely zero casual editors are going to go through the effort of figuring out how to format an obscure template-within-a-template, and that places the burden onto all the regulars to invest the time to make the changes, and to invest the mental energy to remember the template name and its various parameters. Unnecessary busy work on top of our unnecessary busy work.
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- Often an Indian film's native name will be added to a film article's lead, but per WP:NOINDICSCRIPT, the Indian film community doesn't want Indic script in the lead. A simple fix is to paste these into
|film_name=
with minor formatting tweaks rather than deleting them entirely. If having a film's native name in the infobox is of value to the film community, (I find them useful for locating references in the mother tongue) then maybe having a few ways to communicate the information would be beneficial, ranging from bunny slopes to double-black diamond difficulty. Ex: we're tolerant of <ref>http://yourreferencegoeshere.com</ref> but prefer {{cite web}}
- Often an Indian film's native name will be added to a film article's lead, but per WP:NOINDICSCRIPT, the Indian film community doesn't want Indic script in the lead. A simple fix is to paste these into
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- While I'm raving, I also think
|film_name=
is not a great choice for a parameter title because it's easily confused for|name=
--|native_name=
would be more intuitive. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 07:22, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
- While I'm raving, I also think
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- Templates are often used in conjunction with infoboxes, such as {{Based on}} and {{Film date}}, so {{Infobox name module}} is no different to that. You seem to be proposing a solution that bypassess the need for a template, but the only way I think that could be done would be to fold all the parameters at Template:Infobox name module into the main infobox. This would have several disadvantages: i) The infobox would be swamped by parameters that are rarely invoked; ii) it would be more difficult for editors to add further parameters because they would need to get an admin to do it (due to the infobox being protected); iii) foreign-language taskforces would no longer be able to maintain the parameters relevant to their editing interests. There is no way I know of to turn the "film name" meta-parameter into a single-use "catch-all" field because each language parameter has its own formatting requirements. If you take Spirited Away as an example, how would you format the titles with just one parameter and without using a template? Betty Logan (talk) 08:53, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
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- OK, I think I have found a potential solution, or at least a compromise. I still think it is impossible to bypass the template altogether, but I have added a hack so the parameter can be used like the
lang-xx
templates. The Film name template can now take three parameters: the language (either as a name or iso code) as the first parameter, the title as the second and there is an optional "links=no" if you want to turn off the automatic linking. As an example see Premam test 1 and Premam test 2. This solution would allow editors to use the template without having to add further languages. We could update the infobox guidelines to promote this option. If you still want a solution that does not involve an intermediary template then we need to look at ways we can build similar functionality directly into the main infobox. Betty Logan (talk) 11:26, 21 August 2016 (UTC)- Hi Betty, thanks for that. I think I can work with it. Hopefully when/if editors become familiar with it it'll be an easy adjustment. If someone could update the docs, that'd be much appreciated as well. A pleasant week to you! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 02:56, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- I have updated the guidelines here and at the template. If something is unclear or not working correctly then let me know and I will try my best to fix it. Betty Logan (talk) 14:34, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- Hi Betty, thanks for that. I think I can work with it. Hopefully when/if editors become familiar with it it'll be an easy adjustment. If someone could update the docs, that'd be much appreciated as well. A pleasant week to you! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 02:56, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- OK, I think I have found a potential solution, or at least a compromise. I still think it is impossible to bypass the template altogether, but I have added a hack so the parameter can be used like the
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