Dispute resolution (Requests) |
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A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Wikipedia. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.
To request enforcement of previous Arbitration decisions or discretionary sanctions, please do not open a new Arbitration case. Instead, please submit your request to /Requests/Enforcement.
This page trancludes from /Case, /Clarification and Amendment, /Motions, and /Enforcement.
Please make your request in the appropriate section:
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Contents
- 1 Requests for arbitration
- 2 Requests for clarification and amendment
- 2.1 Amendment request: Infoboxes
- 2.1.1 Statement by Dane2007
- 2.1.2 Statement by Cassianto
- 2.1.3 Statement by FourViolas
- 2.1.4 Statement by Laser brain
- 2.1.5 Statement by We hope
- 2.1.6 Statement by SchroCat
- 2.1.7 Statement by clpo13
- 2.1.8 Statement by SMcCandlish
- 2.1.9 Statement by Thryduulf
- 2.1.10 Statement by JzG
- 2.1.11 Statement by Seraphimblade
- 2.1.12 Statement by SlimVirgin
- 2.1.13 Statement by Jytdog
- 2.1.14 Statement by RexxS
- 2.1.15 Alanscottwalker Statement
- 2.1.16 Statement by Ealdgyth
- 2.1.17 Statement by Mike Christie
- 2.1.18 Statement by Cullen328
- 2.1.19 Statement by LaughingVulcan
- 2.1.20 Statement by Smeat75
- 2.1.21 Statement by Mr Ernie
- 2.1.22 Statement by Serialjoepsycho
- 2.1.23 Statement by Dr. Blofeld
- 2.1.24 Statement by Olive
- 2.1.25 Statement by Rschen7754
- 2.1.26 Statement by Jo-Jo Eumerus
- 2.1.27 Statement by Gerda
- 2.1.28 Statement by Jcc
- 2.1.29 Statement by Masem
- 2.1.30 Statement by Yngvadottir
- 2.1.31 Statement by Wehwalt
- 2.1.32 Statement by {other-editor}
- 2.1.33 Infoboxes: Clerk notes
- 2.1.34 Infoboxes: Arbitrator views and discussion
- 2.1 Amendment request: Infoboxes
- 3 Motions
- 4 Requests for enforcement
- 4.1 Arbitration enforcement action appeal by No More Mr Nice Guy
- 4.1.1 Statement by No More Mr Nice Guy
- 4.1.2 Statement by Sandstein
- 4.1.3 Statement by Kingsindian
- 4.1.4 Statement by Nomoskedasticity
- 4.1.5 Statement by Sir Joseph
- 4.1.6 Statement by Nishidani
- 4.1.7 Statement by Zscarpia
- 4.1.8 Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by No More Mr Nice Guy
- 4.1.9 Result of the appeal by No More Mr Nice Guy
- 4.2 SashiRolls
- 4.3 Sahrin
- 4.4 Orasis
- 4.5 Philip Cross
- 4.6 Volunteer Marek
- 4.7 Makeandtoss
- 4.1 Arbitration enforcement action appeal by No More Mr Nice Guy
Requests for arbitration
Requests for clarification and amendment
Amendment request: Infoboxes
Initiated by Dane2007 at 06:40, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes#Decorum
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes#Use_of_infoboxes
- List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- Dane2007 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- Cassianto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- FourViolas (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- Laser brain (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- We hope (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- SchroCat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- clpo13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- Information about amendment request
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- I am requesting a modification to include a restriction on any bludgeoning type behavior on all types of Infobox discussions.
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- General sanction for entire community on Infobox related RfC discussions with a limit of two posts including initial post. Any expansion beyond a minor expansion or clarification of an existing statement would be considered a second post.
Statement by Dane2007
There have been several AN/I requests regarding Infoboxes with limited administrator involvement due to unclear expectations of what is or is not enforceable. This is the most recent AN/I that was opened regarding the conduct of users participating in Infobox discussions/RfCs. This AN/I request was closed suggesting a filing to ArbCom requesting Discretionary Sanctions. This AN/I case was never officially closed but also included heated debate over Infoboxes which sparked a further AN/I discussion. The "infobox wars" as they have been referred to are causing discontent within the community and further restrictions are necessary to prevent these continued issues from repeating as they did in the example above. Involved users on all sides of the debate are guilty of the behaviors in which amendments are being requested. An amendment and/or clarification would allow for enforcement and provide two paths for infobox related discussions:
- Path 1: General discussion on talk page with no restrictions on post limits or replies. This would be discussions as they are typically carried out today.
- Path 2: Move to RfC venue for outside eyes and community input. General sanction would apply and no more than two posts would be made. This would allow community input on specific articles and prevent disruptive behavior from parties on both sides of the issue.
It is my hope that with this amendment request we as a community can move towards a productive resolution on this issue. The parties listed above as involved have been part of one or more of the AN/I's above.
Statement by Cassianto
Statement by FourViolas
I have no emotional investment in the "infobox wars", but I was recently so dismayed at the incivility of one user in an IB-related dispute that I filed one of my first AN/I reports. I thought it would be a clear-cut case, but many experienced editors commented that action against this user was inappropriate because I was overlooking a long history of bitterness on both sides. If the situation is so bad that an editor can admit to being disruptive (by being uncivil enough to discourage third parties from commenting; [1]) and escape sanction because this is apparently not out of the ordinary for this issue [2], ArbCom clearly needs to intervene.
Dane2007 chose two remedies which gained some support in the discussions, and I wouldn't oppose them; however, I think a simpler and more effective amendment would be simply to make Infoboxes#Decorum enforceable by discretionary sanctions. WP:Bludgeoning (an essay) is already forbidden under Infoboxes#Decorum (disruptive point-making, harassment, NPA), but is not being enforced; and AN/I participants have expressed concern that the two-post restriction could be gamed.
@SchroCat: I'm sorry to hear you're considering leaving the project. The filer invited you to add parties if you feel other editors need to be involved [3]. FourViolas (talk) 12:11, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Laser brain
I appreciate the filer's attempt to address the ongoing infobox problems by filing an amendment request. However, the request is misguided and targets one of the symptoms (endless discussion) without addressing the problem. Limiting people to two comments might quiet the noise, but certainly doesn't solve the issue. The only responsible remedy is to authorize discretionary sanctions for the infobox domain. If someone is being disruptive, an AE request can be filed and it can be handled by uninvolved admins. We need an end to the never-ending disruptions on article Talk pages and AN/I, right now. --Laser brain (talk) 10:48, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
@Guerillero: The MoS is under DS. So technically the entirety of article space is under DS if you want to look at it that way. --Laser brain (talk) 17:14, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
@Drmies: How did it come to this? We're not dealing with individual editors. We're dealing with groups who have entrenched and whose frustration (on both sides) has manifested in behavior problems and battleground mentality. Every time a thread appears on a noticeboard about infoboxes, everyone grabs their pitchforks and runs into battle, and nothing gets solved. ArbCom has already tried to deal with this and it's still going. So you're comfortable punting this back to the community? --Laser brain (talk) 17:14, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
@Drmies: It's been well-documented in this request that most of us are asking for DS. Many of the commenting Arbs seem OK with setting aside what the filer is asking for, which is in good faith but misguided (see my initial comment here), and listening to the community instead of creating more bureaucracy by asking for yet another request be filed. You seem to be focusing on the detail of how many admins deal with a situation on AN/I versus AE, but that doesn't reflect the reality of what occurs in each venue. In any but the most open-and-shut cases at AN/I, mob mentality and groupthink rule and nothing gets resolved. There have been many threads opened and closed about behavior around infoboxes without satisfactory resolution. At AE, the discussion is focused and requires evidence. Normally several admins comment and come to a consensus about the correct action before something is closed. I think DS is a reasonable intermediate step before another full Arb case is needed. You asserted that DS are purely punitive, but don't forget their deterrent effect. --Laser brain (talk) 14:36, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: But there are groups, and pretending something doesn't exist doesn't help solve problems. I can write down a list of names who show up with eye-rolling predictability every time infoboxes are being discussed, and the fact that I can do that is at the heart of the problem. --Laser brain (talk) 15:02, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by We hope
Like Gavin, I wasn't going to make a statement as I was close to being out the door when this was filed. Made one at requests which I think covers it all from my standpoint and felt no possible help in the matter would be forthcoming when this was tabled. It's almost impossible to concentrate on text content work when the noise from the infobox issues is at high pitch.
The discussions don't remain at the respective talk page or at Arbitration Requests, but follow you to your talk page; see the link above for 2 instances where it happened to me. The committee should also be aware of a page which is listed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion. Please view the page at the link as it is a previous version of the page, which has been considerably edited since being listed at MfD. The edit summary comment regarding the Coward article ""let's see how many times back and forth, actually quite amusing" is no longer on the page. We hope (talk) 15:44, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- I support the statement of User:Yngvadottir and wonder if the admonitions and bans / restrictions lifted in March 2015 should be re-examined. The stability of some FAs may be at stake since the present infobox issue has been "amusing" to one of the involved editors. We hope (talk) 21:10, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by SchroCat
I wasn't going to bother with a statement (particularly given the rather odd selection of 'cast list'—all from one 'side' of the debate, which speaks volumes about wishing to punish, rather than bringing the situation to a constructive close). But after what appears to be an organised push on a series of articles (both without IBs and on other matters) by a small number of tendentious tag-teamers highly active in the IB fields or as the self-appointed Guardians of the MoS, I have been winding down recently (just getting the inestimable Josephine Butler through FAC first, if anyone is interested in reading about a proper struggle) prior to leaving.
My decision to leave WP has been accelerated because an admin (a fucking admin, for crying out loud) questions my mental health because I am not in favour IBs; I know it's time to move on when such shoddy and despicable accusations are made by someone who is "expected to lead by example and to behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others".
I'm out of here either when my role as an FLC delegate finishes in a couple of months, or when my two FLCs and one FAC have come to an end, and the final article on which I am working has gone through FAC. You all have fun without me when I'm gone, but while the tendentious MoS wall-of-text merchants continue to wear down opposition with their relentless grind, this and related matters where the MoS is out of step with good practice (like quote boxes – a future battleground for the MoS Warriors) small MoS-driven outbreaks of aggression and disruption will continue to act like a cancer in isolated pockets. Pip pip – Gavin (talk) 11:58, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
@FourViolas: I've already advised the filer to do it properly: if they want to leave it malformed and so obviously biased, there is less chance anything will happen. – Gavin (talk) 12:17, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Statement by clpo13
Clearly, ArbCom needs to do something about infoboxes. The current situation is untenable and will only lead to more of these disputes. I agree with those who have suggested that discretionary sanctions should be authorized to enforce decorum and prevent bludgeoning of good faith participants in infobox discussions (whether to add or remove them). I don't know why the issue is so contentious, but it is, and ignoring it isn't going to make it go away. clpo13(talk) 16:20, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Further: I don't know if anything can be done to prevent infobox disputes entirely (short of mandating/banning infoboxes or, preferably, going the CITEVAR/ENGVAR road), but we can at least make them less likely to drive people away from the project entirely. I can understand the frustration that long-time editors can feel when the issue keeps getting brought up time and again, but editors who may happen along an article without an infobox can't be expected to know the entire history of the infobox wars and shouldn't be bitten for trying to add one or asking why there isn't one, especially if there is no previous discussion about it on the talk page. The use of hidden text can help with that so long as such text points to a pre-existing consensus. clpo13(talk) 21:11, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Statement by SMcCandlish
Support first proposed remedy (no WP:BLUDGEONing, a form of WP:DE), oppose the second (2-post rule). Stifling discussion generally is not the answer. The habit of certain editors of bludgeoning to death various infobox discussions can be dealt with at ANI. The discussions themselves often necessitate a fair amount of pro and con about what an infobox might bring to an article or how it might be superfluous, so "muzzle everyone" is not an appropriate direction to take. The first of two principal problems in these discussions is not the length of the thread, but the repetitive badgering behavior. Regardless, this aspect of the matter is not really an ArbCom issue.
Authorize discretionary sanctions. The second and more serious problem, as I pointed out at ARCA only about two weeks ago, is definitely an ArbCom issue, and it is the increasing and seemingly unstoppable artillery barrage of incivility in these discussions, which has nothing to do with post length or frequency. This smear-all-who-disagree-with-my-faction behavior is not being brought by any parties to the original WP:ARBINFOBOX. It's "Infobox Wars: The Next Generation". We don't need a new generation of disruption, and the only reason we have one is because WP:ARBINFIBOX is basically toothless without WP:AC/DS in play. DS is enabled for "style" issues generally (the WP:ARBATC case), but this dispute isn't quite a style one; it's a content arrangement and presentation dispute. The difference is distinguishable enough that AE will not act on such a dispute under ARBATC, but it's so nearly the same in motivation, tenor, and WP:LAMEness that ArbCom has good reason to apply the same remedy. As I noted at ARCA last time, if DS isn't going to be made available, then a WP:ARBINFOBOX2 is the only likely outcome (a case I've already prepared, other than there's about 5x more evidence than is actually permitted to be included, so I'd have to trim it [update: and two obvious parties have suddenly said they're leaving WP]. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 07:09, 30 August 2016 (UTC) Updated: — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 08:18, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- Curiously, despite disagreeing with Thryduulf's skepticism of broad usefulness of i-boxes (I use mobile devices frequently as a reader rather than editor, and the i-boxes are very useful on them, if they are not full of trivia), I still agree with every single other thing that editor said below. The dispute doesn't really seem to be a pro-infobox versus anti-infobox thing in most cases, but rather an "I can edit any article I want, dammit" versus "don't mess with my FA"/"don't challenge this wikiproject's scope authority" matter. It's not limited to infoboxes at all, but affects all sorts of things, including decorative quotation templates, "in popular culture" material, external links, citation formatting, etc. It's just mostly a civility nightmare when it comes to infoboxes. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 07:43, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
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- Concur with with Jytdog that SV's proposal to extend the Sortan remedy to include infoboxes would be ArbCom making policy; that decision is citing existing WP:fooVAR guidelines, not making up new ones. And CITEVAR should not be a model for anything, given how many lame disputes it causes rather than prevents. The problem with applying such an approach to i-boxes: all those fooVAR and barRET[AIN] guidelines are about changing from one style to another for no real reason; this is about adding or deleting material for real reasons, so the comparison is twice-faulty. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 07:51, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
MoS could address infoboxes better: Many editors on all sides of this (there aren't just two) believe MoS should have a section on why/when to [not] include an infobox, and what to [not] put in it (since WP:INFOBOX seems to have no buy-in or effect). This would be challenging to develop, but it would surely be helpful, in the way that guidelines about navboxes have been.
Technical solutions that could reduce certain clusters of dispute: A) hidden-text infoboxes, not too unlike the old PersonData, that emit the metadata without visually changing the article. B) Wide landscape images could be handled by a |landscape=y
that put the image above the infobox frame (or kept it in place, but expanded the frame only around the image – harder to code) and otherwise kept the i-box the same width. Just thinking along the lines of what MoS's lead says about writing around disputes to moot them. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 08:18, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Thryduulf
I think the Committee has the following choices:
- Authorise discretionary sanctions for Infoboxes per the repeated requests, accepting that the original case and the review have failed to solve the problems.
- Accept another infoboxes case, accepting that both the original case and the review have failed to solve the problems.
- Watch the disruption to the project continue.
- Bury your heads in the sand and pretend there is no continuing disruption to the project.
The current discussion at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests should be added to your required reading lists before choosing. Thryduulf (talk) 15:41, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- @Opabinia regalis: I've not yet seen an argument that convinces me that the vast majority of article types are suitable for an infobox, and can't think of an argument that would convince me otherwise. To me arguments about aesthetics are all about what the content of the infobox should be - what fields it should have, what (if any) image it should have and where images not suitable for the infobox but desirable to have in the article are located relative to it. The latter questions are ones that are only suitable for discussion on an article-by-article basis as they depend on the nature and dimensions of images, the length and organisation of the prose and what is notable about the individual subject (e.g. what is trivial information about one person is key to the notability of another - that Tony Blair plays the guitar is not really relevant to his infobox but it absolutely is for Eric Clapton). The issue comes from my approach of "let's discuss what the infobox on this article should contain and how it should be formatted" clashing with "I do not want to have an infobox on this (class/type of) article" - sometimes (but alas not always) the latter comes with reasoning that can be discussed. That reasoning usually boils down to either "an infobox that is poorly formatted/overly long/contains misleading or inaccurate information would degrade the quality of the prose therefore there should not be an infobox" (I agree with the first part of the argument but strongly disagree that the conclusion follows the premise) or "all the information is in the prose therefore there is no need for an infobox" (which misses that a Wikipedia article serves many different audiences seeking different things in different ways and omits completely the value of metadata). Sometimes unfortunately the arguments still just boil down to "I don't like infoboxes (on my article)".
- In addition to RexxS' response to you, part of the problem is with differing approaches to Wikipedia - some people invest a lot of time and energy into getting a relatively few articles to GA and FA status and maintaining them at that level; other people invest equal time and energy into the project but distributed over getting and maintaining many more articles to a lower standard, sometimes by focussing on one or a few specific aspects. There is sometimes the feeling that the efforts of the latter group are less appreciated generally and/or by those of the first group and their views are not given equal weight when there is a divergence of opinion (whether this is true or not, it is the perception). Thryduulf (talk) 12:36, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Gorillawarfare: in my experience, when there is agreement to have an infobox (either after discussion or because it's uncontroversial) and the subject is not opera or classical music, the discussion about what the infobox should include is almost never uncivil and almost always very productive even if there are significant disagreements (i.e. it's like the significant majority of other aspects of Wikipedia).If the subject is opera or classical music* then the likelihood of a civil, productive discussion drops very significantly. It is normally discussions of whether to have an infobox in the first place that are the really problematic ones, and in the opera and classical music fields* these discussions are even more likely to be contentious and poorly conducted than those elsewhere.
- * in my experience these are the significantly most problematic areas, but my experience is not necessarily representative of the whole totality of the problem. Thryduulf (talk) 12:55, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
- @GorillaWarfare: fixing ping. Thryduulf (talk) 12:56, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Guerillero: If approved, DS would not apply to 90% of Wikipedia, it would (or at least should) apply only to:
- the addition or removal of an infobox
- making major changes to an infobox (presentation or content)
- discussions about infoboxes.
- Infoboxes do appear on a sizeable percentage of articles, but only in an extremely small proportion of cases are they at all controversial, so I really do not see this as a relevant issue. Thryduulf (talk) 12:00, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Drmies: If arbcom does nothing now then the only question is how soon before another request comes your way - doing nothing has not worked on every other occasion arbcom has tried it, why is this time any different? Cassianto is simply the most recent user to have lost their decorum - there is an entire history of that is not explicitly mentioned here because (a) editors are (rightly) required to be succinct, and (b) everybody assumes that arbitrators are either already familiar with the history of case requests and ARCA filings or capable of becoming so when it is obviously required. Thryduulf (talk) 20:31, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Drmies: I'm less certain now than I was above that discretionary sanctions will solve the problems, but nothing else that has been tried so far has done either. The benefits of AE over AN(I) are that it is a structured space where comments without evidence don't hold weight and being a prolific contributor is not regarded as an excuse for incivility, etc. Speaking personally at least, I do not want to "get rid of (editors like) Cassianto" - I want discussions about infoboxes to be civil, productive and based on reasoned arguments without encouraging or even rewarding ownership of articles. If the committee feels that discretionary sanctions will not achieve this then it needs to take some other action, and I'm not seeing anything other than "the community can handle it" - the evidence of years is that that no, the community cannot handle this. Simply saying "reform ANI", while certainly highly desirable, is not going to resolve this dispute. Thryduulf (talk) 09:45, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by JzG
The entire dispute is bizarre, since both sides in each successive fight are usually long-term Wikipedians with large numbers of edits making substantial improvements to articles - but I guess that applied all along to the infobox wars.
Circular argument, ownership and assumptions of bad faith are currently much in evidence, and it's pretty clear that some (most, by my quick overview, but that could be sampling error) of the repeat combatants have fixed positions and do not decide on an article-by-article basis.
I endorse the proposal to invoke discretionary sanctions, the two-post proposal is novel but I can think of a number of potential pitfalls and ways of gaming it, and doing nothing is not good for anyone other than whoever sells us disks for the servers. Guy (Help!) 15:52, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Seraphimblade
I entirely endorse the request to add discretionary sanctions to this area. Blocks are a blunt tool unlikely to do anything but inflame the dispute. The more nuanced enforcement offered by discretionary sanctions might be able to cut back the nastiness and vitriol, and failing that can remove the worst actors from the topic. Seraphimblade Talk to me 17:09, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Statement by SlimVirgin
Please authorize discretionary sanctions. In the meantime, I wonder whether the MoS DS could be used (authorized in 2012 in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation), given that infoboxes are a style issue; see MOS:INFOBOX and this subsection for advice about including them. SarahSV (talk) 20:09, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- To pick up on Jytdog's point and my earlier post on another page, it would help if (in addition to authorizing DS; those are needed more than anything) the ArbCom would simply add "and infoboxes" to the first sentence of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Sortan#Preferred styles (2006):
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Wikipedia does not mandate styles in many different areas; these include (but are not limited to) American vs. British spelling, date formats, and citation style. Where Wikipedia does not mandate a specific style, editors should not attempt to convert Wikipedia to their own preferred style, nor should they edit articles for the sole purpose of converting them to their preferred style, or removing examples of, or references to, styles which they dislike.
- That decision dealt very effectively with the edit warring over several style issues. The same approach is needed for infoboxes, and while it's clear that the Sortan decision can be applied, adding "and infoboxes" would make it explicit.
- Having done that, the ArbCom could (as Jytdog suggests) ask the community to organize an RfC to determine whether the community does want to "mandate a specific style" when it comes to infoboxes. SarahSV (talk) 21:32, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Jytdog, an INFOBOXVAR would have to say a good deal more than that; and I do agree that that should be developed by the community. Adding "and infoboxes" to that decision would simply make explicit what is already there, namely that infoboxes are a style issue covered by the MoS, and that the MoS regards them as optional. Note (bold added): "Wikipedia does not mandate styles in many different areas; these include (but are not limited to) ...". The principle is that editors should not be edit-warring over optional styles.
But I wouldn't want to suggest anything that might complicate and delay the authorization of discretionary sanctions. SarahSV (talk) 22:38, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Jytdog
I entirely agree with SlimVirgin above - this is a style matter and please do authorize DS. I do not think it is within Arbcom's scope to resolve the deeper question of project-wide guidance on infoboxes, as the 2013 Arbcom recognized in this remedy: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes#Community_discussion_recommended. I suggest that the remedy be re-iterated and amended to more tightly focus the discussion - namely, recommend that the community hold an RfC to determine whether infoboxes should be treated per article like CITEVAR or whether they should be treated as a "mandated" style element, project-wide, that cannot be idiosyncratically opposed on a per article basis. I lay this out in more detail here. Jytdog (talk) 20:42, 30 August 2016 (UTC) (amend... don't mean to be so draconian... Jytdog (talk) 21:49, 30 August 2016 (UTC))
- User:RexxS the importance of recognizing this as a style issue (especially in the eyes of the infobox opponents, who, as far as I can tell, see them as hideous), is to understand that the dispute is not amenable to reason; matters of style are not rational. Have people discuss it over a drink and you are more likely to get fistfights than reasoned discussion. It is not a content thing - it is a matter of how content already in the article is presented, which is ...style. Jytdog (talk) 22:19, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- I do not agree with User:SlimVirgin's additional comment above, that it is within Arbcom's scope to apply the CITEVAR option to infoboxes. That moves into policy-making, in my view. Jytdog (talk) 22:25, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- User:Ealdgyth I did not say that infoboxes should be mandated; do not attribute that position to me. Jytdog (talk) 23:00, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Statement by RexxS
I disagree entirely with Jytdog and Sarah above. ArbCom has repeatedly taken the position that infoboxes are part of the content of an article, not a mere style decision, as I've explained in a post elsewhere. Infoboxes contain a structured collection of key facts relevant to an article, and "key facts" are indisputably content.
Having said that, I would like to see an end to the clashes between the two sides on the infobox wars. What I would like to know is how does anybody think that discretionary sanctions are going to work in this case? [Clerk removed personal attack – Kevin (alt of L235 · t · c) 14:39, 1 September 2016 (UTC). You'll just have to imagine a vivid description of the Wild-West antics of some admins resulting in us losing good editors] Or are we going to see good content editors being topic banned from the topics they spend so much time stewarding? Without some direction as to the outcomes we want, it's equivalent to giving the prefects bigger straps to hit the juniors with.
What we need is behaviour modification. That takes two elements: the carrot and the stick; what Jerry in Zoo Story calls "the teaching emotion". The sanctions used so far ("stick only") have merely served to entrench the two camps. Not only that but we now have SMcCandlish's "The Next Generation" - a new swathe of editors taking up the pre-defined positions in the current round of disputes. The only way forward I can see is if we can build on whatever common ground we can, rather than dig it away to form the ranks of battle. That's when it starts to get personalised. If I could just get all the disputants together, face-to-face over a drink of their choice, we could go a very long way to taking the sting out of the incivility we currently see. But that's not going to happen - although the offer is always open - so are there any other possibilities?
I'd like to see each side be able to find some "carrot" in any proposed solution. How about we get rid of hidden comments forbidding infoboxes ("carrot" for the pro-boxers)? but in return, wherever there's an amicable discussion of whether or not to have an infobox, the decision becomes binding and unchallengeable for a period of six months, or a year, or whatever, ("carrot" for the anti-boxers)? If you don't build in something that rewards civil debate, I'm willing to bet that you'll make incivil debate the more likely outcome. --RexxS (talk) 22:07, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- @Jytdog: There are a lot more reasons than aesthetics for some of our very best editors to oppose an infobox in certain articles. One perennial problem is that fine editors like SchroCat and Cassianto, who do their best to steward articles that they have nurtured through the FA process, find that their decision not to include an infobox on a particular article is repeatedly challenged by other editors, fresh to the article, who don't share their reasons, or perhaps don't have insight into them. They find that wearing and I'm not surprised. I'd like to find some way of lessening that burden without throwing away the principle that "anybody can edit".
- As for fisticuffs, my experience in meeting other Wikimedians (and I've met a lot of them) is this. Given the choice between: (1) letting me buy them a beer while listening to me apologise for losing my cool and being rude to them; and (2) starting a fistfight (given I'm 6 ft tall, 230 pounds, and grew up in a tough neighbourhood); everybody so far has picked (1). It must be the healing power of good beer. --RexxS (talk) 23:12, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- @Opabinia regalis: You're asking the question in exactly the wrong place. The only people (hopefully) who are watching this section are the ones who are invested in the infobox debate and are unlikely to change their minds for the following reasons. The decision on whether an infobox represents an improvement or not depends on a much larger range of factors than almost any other I'm aware of on the encyclopedia, including: aesthetics; the emission of microformats; the problems of trivia being stuffed into infoboxes; the value of an at-a-glance summary of key facts; huge infoboxes dominating a tiny article; avoiding searches for a single piece of key information that's not in the lead; the inability to have a big landscape lead image without making the infobox unreasonably wide; and many more. Each editor will give a different weight to each factor, so there is no argument that all of the regular participants have not seen and already weighed up as important or not.
- The situation is made worse by an imbalance in the two camps: there are a couple of relatively small groups of editors who have spent much of their time on Wikipedia improving articles to FA standard. They share a common dislike of infoboxes in certain disciplines, notably theatrical biographies and classical music, principally (I believe) for aesthetic reasons. They tend not to be concerned with the technical aspects of infoboxes in providing metadata and re-use by third parties. That is a perfectly reasonable stance. There is another group of technically-minded editors who give less emphasis to aesthetics and much more to the technical advantages. That is also a tenable stance, but neither side is likely to convince the other to change their mind. The asymmetry occurs because the former group have invested a lot of time and effort in improving a particular article and try to act as stewards for those articles. The current round of disputes have flared up because uninvolved editors sometimes see an article, often an FA, that has no infobox and either add one or request one on the talk page. This causes a burden for the stewards of the article who feel they have to explain their nuanced decision not to have an infobox time-and-again. Unfortunately this sometimes leads to a failure in civility, and quite often draws in more editors from the two camps, not only arguing about the infobox decision, but also whether editors who have never edited the article before should be allowed to raise such a sensitive issue. Many of the latter camp will conclude that in those cases the stewardship has crossed the line into ownership. My own recent involvement has been in supporting an uninvolved editor who challenged the presence of hidden text which prohibited the addition of an infobox to several articles. That's the way in which this poisonous dispute is able to spread from the original locus. We're going to need some means of accommodating both camps, so that each feels they have something to gain, bearing in mind there's no compromise available in a binary decision like having an infobox or not having one. --RexxS (talk) 19:36, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Masem: Why must "all material in an infobox ... be duplicating content already in the article"? Why is it a problem "If there is material in the infobox that is not part of the article"? {{Infobox medical condition}} contains information found nowhere else in the article such as ICD-10, etc.; {{Infobox drug}} is mainly made up of information and images which do not appear elsewhere; most infoboxes present an image, a caption and alternate text that is not already in the article. What's the problem with those and how would it improve the encyclopedia to either remove those pieces of information from the infobox or duplicate them in the rest of the article? The selection of what goes into the infobox, especially when not duplicated in the remainder of the article, is a content decision, not a style decision, as much as any other decision to include or exclude content is. --RexxS (talk) 01:17, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Alanscottwalker Statement
I have not been really involved in all this (except on your talk page, interestingly enough), but I have not seen any current consensus on whether Infoboxes are style or substance or both (see also, WP:CONTENT), so that may be an open question. But can't you strongly encourage whomever to go to mediation to construct RfC's for the community to adopt, perhaps modest default rules guidelines or something like that? (You've done that before on contentious issues). Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:23, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Ealdgyth
I take Rexx's statement as somewhat spot on, but I'm with Sarah and Laser Brain. I, however, disagree with the idea by Jytdog, that infoboxes should be mandated. I'm generally slightly pro-infobox - most articles I start have them - but there are a few articles I've worked on that they won't work on, in my opinion. (See Middle Ages, Jersey Act, Carucage, or Gregorian mission). Many above are correct that there is too much personalization... but I'm not sure an RfC is going to be any more productive. I don't think DS can hurt IF they are used for the personalizations and extreme-battleground behavior that exists. Certainly something has to give. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:54, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Mike Christie
Opabinia Regalis is right to say that there is no consensus that infoboxes are a style issue, but I think this is a symptom, rather than a cause, of the different views, and I don't think those underlying views can be brought to a consensus. The two sides' preferred solutions flow from that point: if it's stylistic, it's up to the discretion of the first significant contributor; if it's content, no editor should be allowed to arbitrarily exclude it. If Arbcom can find a workable solution that bypasses settling that point, they're worth their pay, or would be, if they were paid.
Below are some requirements I feel any solution has to have. I posted a version of these at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests and have trimmed them a bit. I tried to make these neutral with the hope that at least both sides might agree on the requirements, if not the solution itself.
- Fairness. It has to apply equally to the addition and removal of infoboxes.
- Permanence. It has to make clear how permanent a decision is, in order to prevent a recurrence of the discussion wasting more time. When and how can an infobox decision for an article be revisited?
- Article quality. Any solution has to acknowledge that there's a difference between adding or removing an infobox to a stub, and doing the same to an article that has had a lot of work and thought put into it, particularly if that article has been through a review process. This would be true for any edit; it's not more true for infoboxes, but it is true, and has to be remembered.
- Participation. It has to address the concern that "uninvolved" editors will show up to add their opinions to any discussion. And when I say "address", I don't mean "disallow" or "allow"; I just mean the solution has to clearly say whether this is OK, and if not, how it will be stopped or remedied.
Montanabw made some comments in response to these points at the WT:A/R thread that are worth reading. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:05, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
@User:Opabinia regalis: you asked what would make an editor change their mind about infoboxes on an article. I don't think there are any participants in this discussion who think every article should have an infobox, nor any who think no articles should have one. (For that reason I'd like to find better terms than "pro-infobox" and "anti-infobox".) Hence it's not about infoboxes per se, it's about the context. For myself, if I think the information is not misleading (usually by inaccurate summarization) and is important (date of birth is clearly important, for example) I'm OK with including one, though if those restrictions limit the box only to information easy visible in the first one or two sentences I would usually opt not to have one. Two examples, both of which I nominated at FAC: Offa of Mercia has an infobox which is clearly beneficial; Amazing Stories does not and should not.
With regard to a solution, I am certain that discretionary sanctions will not work, if by "work" we mean that editors on both sides will be more productive as a result. Until we get a ruling (via Arbcom or via a community RfC) that settles, not the behaviour issue, but the underlying question of what rules apply to discussions about whether to add or remove an infobox, this will not be resolved. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:34, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Cullen328
I support the request to add discretionary sanctions to the infobox controversy. Whether or not infoboxes are a style issue or a content issue strikes me as unimportant and secondary to the need to stop the ongoing, persistent disruption which includes incivility. Any such effort will be successful only if enforcement is thoughtful, fair, restrained and even-handed. Sadly, otherwise highly productive editors who are both "pro" and "anti" infoboxes have been drawn into these protracted, repetitive, lengthy and disruptive disputes. Giving uninvolved administrators the power to topic ban editors who repeatedly persist in disruptive, uncivil behavior regarding infoboxes would be a useful tool, as I see it. To be clear, the topic ban I propose would apply only to infoboxes, not to the articles as a whole. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 01:47, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Statement by LaughingVulcan
I have refrained from commenting so far, as I feel too close to some of the heat in one of the germinating articles - both giving and receiving. However, in going through the history of this I noted that there was a recommendation from Arbcom in the original case that there should be, "...a well-publicized community discussion be held to address whether to adopt a policy or guideline addressing what factors should weigh in favor of or against including an infobox in a given article." I managed to miss the infobox wars case during a long period of wikibreak/IP editing. Thank God. Was that discussion ever held to anyone's knowledge? I think I see and agree that it is not up to Arbcom to hold such discussion, but did any neutral party actually do that? And also I am not positive that any amount of discussion may bring peace in our time. Yet that too could be tried if it hasn't happened. If no, how could one go about starting that? Last, if discussions were held, what conclusions were reached and would some sort of banner link to them in any IB local article dispute help? None of this is meant to be a yes/no opinion on discretionary sanctions. Maybe any such community discussion should be preemptively placed on DS if held, though. LaughingVulcan 14:57, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
@Opabinia regalis, point three I still consider myself an outsider, this have been my first experience on Infobox discussion. But a good survey of the readership, or an RfC or vote of the editorship (as in Infoboxes Remedy 4.3.7 or similar,) or an office action would be objectively empirical evidence for me. In the matter of Infoboxes, anecdotes or lone opinions generally won't change minds IMVHO, nor will article stewards' opinions if one differs with them. At least the ones I saw didn't persuade me to difference in the case at hand, even though many were well written and I reread the RfC and article this morning. Which leaves nose counting, no consensuses, and deferment to status quo ante. Speculation: Maybe if the RfCs were restructured to have "yes/no/comment" subsections collective opinions of either side might be more persuasive.
A collapse of my reasoning |
---|
The encyclopedia serves the readership. Evidence of how the readership wants to be served works - not anecdotal opinions about how the whole readership feels or might feel. Nor that a steward's opinion of the article is have/not have a box when I can't agree that layout is harmed or info replication is harmful. At Talk:Noel Coward I did appreciate that there were people on both sides offering up bulleted and numbered reasoning on both sides. None of the opposite opinions changed my mind, though. (Being told readers who want an infobox want to be treated as idiots, when you're a reader who wants an infobox, does not work. Telling content creators that there are times you don't want to read their well-crafted text does not sway them to allow an infobox. Most regrettably mistakenly saying that it was "stupid text" especially does not work - again I'll say it was wrong of me to say that and I wish I'd handled myself better at points. Allowing incivility and bludgeoning makes it very hard to read the case for the other side.)
What would convince me utterly is a well-designed neutral study of Wikipedia readers (probably via well designed randomly sampled surveys during article retrieval) as to when infoboxes are and are not appropriate. If a plurality of surveyed readers agrees either way, I can accept that. (Even if I still personally feel different from that.) Second place to that would be something akin to an RfC or even a vote of the editorship as described in the Infobox case remedy 4.3.7, preferably at minimum respecting differences in categories of article. (Forgive if I paraphrase incorrectly.) Nobody responded to my query above, so I assume one never took place. Make a master infobox guideline. Let it permit (absolutely) or deny IBs for biographies / sciences articles / geographical entries / etc. etc. - let it be even more granularly by category. Or let it lay out specific and near-deterministic guidelines of when infoboxes are not permitted or not deniable to an article. Do not leave that directly in the hands of individual Projects or local editors to say yes/no initially, as this appears to be how we've gotten where we are. In distinct third place, but equally settling: Let the Office decide it as a site styling matter, as (AFAIK) they do for how the master css layout works. I'd hope they'd use a likewise objective empirical method. (Though I predict many editors would howl worse at that than we've yet seen, at the unfairness of the office overriding us all regardless of how one feels about IBs.) In any of the cases above, reconfirm as needed (2 years? 3? 5?) or as consensus is perceived to change but I then fear the squabbles would start immediately and not stop. |
LaughingVulcan 01:04, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
@Drmies While I’m convinced that my problems were with one editor and thus might agree that DS should thus not be authorized, I’m also extremely concerned at this point that some Arbs may feel like double jeopardy is now attached to his conduct outside this amendment request. (i.e. this Amendment closes with no action, bringing a request about an individual here named would now considered double jeopardy / hounding. ??? ) Or are you suggesting the scope of this amendment be narrowed down to that user's conduct? (And potentially those he's interacted with - quite frankly part of the reason I'm still involved with this and elsewhere trying to solve IB problems is because I'm well aware that I had my own faults with him in that thread and elsewhere... while believing that his problems and mine are of different orders of magnitude. And that he will not change, where I will. I like bio IBs, but not this much.) Sorry for changed sig... LaughingVulcan Grok Page! 12:09, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
@Drmies (again) Thanks for the explanation. The way I’d see it, the project has not enforced decorum through normal means, multiple times, instead being told time and time again that it’s a matter of Infobox Controversy. 1 (never closed, archived when RfC started.) 2 3 4brought us here-now, I believe
Face it: If Arbcom can’t do anything further about this (either about specific editors or infoboxes, whichever is the cause or both,) no one else will, either. About the individual(s) or the subject. Because y’all will hast then spoken in the negative, and in the future the Admins and users elsewhere will think or say, "Well, Arbcom didn't act on it then-there, so why should we?" And while it may earn me yet more trouble I really don’t want: At least the subject of the Noel RfC has apparently nobody left with anything to say ATM. Last word (so far) is interesting. It won’t be the end of the trouble with certain individuals, though. Bet you ten quatloos on it.
- Finally, I’d disagree and dare to venture that most of us who never come before Arbcom love y’all: Because you’re all too often the last line of defense. Help us, Arbi-Wan, you’re our only hope!ok not, but hope that one gets a laugh, at least... LaughingVulcan Grok Page! 01:33, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
@Guerillero Is 90% of WP being put under DS with this? Potentially if 90% of articles have IBs or will have the proposed, though I'd bet over time you're closer to 99% then. But could the question here be to have DS for when there is discussion to include or delete an IB - that discussion is what is under DS? I think that comes to a lower number. Maybe. LaughingVulcan Grok Page! 12:01, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Smeat75
I just want to point out that Tim riley, SchroCat, Cassianto and We hope have all retired or announced their intention to end their involvement with WP over this issue in the last few days. These are all highly excellent content creators, driven away from the project by incessant demands from editors otherwise uninvolved with the articles they have worked on to have infoboxes added to the articles. Very sad, a failure on a systemic level to help and value core content creators.Smeat75 (talk) 19:23, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
- Reply to Opabinia regalis - I think RexxS above, in his reply to you, has done a very fair and balanced job of evaluating the current situation. Things have moved on a little from the time when there were two opposing "camps" of regular editors, one pro, one anti-info-boxes who would slug it out repeatedly. The present, very horrible, conflict is, as he says, centred on FA which come to the attention of the "community" which unfortunately often means editors who neither know nor care anything whatsoever about the subject of the article but just think every article should have an infobox, because that is the cool modern thing to do. The what I might call hard core old school pro-infobox regulars have become a little more willing to compromise and extend understanding to the editors who have taken "their" articles to FA and do not feel infoboxes on them are appropriate, but not the "wider community" summoned by RfC's and so forth, which has been instrumental in the four highly excellent editors I mention above announcing they are quitting WP. Tim Riley is the one whose work I am most familiar with, it is a terrible, terrible loss. This is one of the reasons why I am not interested in trying to take the articles I have created or expanded to "Good" or "Featured" status, then you will have "the community" insisting on infoboxes, I would rather try to please the real "outsiders" who are not WP editors, but readers/users who turn to this website, now (unfortunately, I often think) the most frequently used resource for information on the internet, for accurate, well-sourced, hopefully interesting information.
- Opabinia regalis asks what would change my mind. I have included infoboxes on articles I have created about books and also about various saints, but in the area of classical music/opera that I work in a lot I feel that infoboxes are not suitable at all for many of the articles I work on and experience someone trying to add one as sabotage of what I have tried to accomplish. I would change my mind if I could see that there is a consensus, not of the wider "community", but of the other editors working in the area of classical music/opera, that infoboxes should be included in articles.Smeat75 (talk) 05:03, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Mr Ernie
Arbcom should go ahead and authorize DS for this topic area, but it won't adress the root cause of the issue. I agree with User:Jytdog that infoboxes are a style issue and the community should author a policy to end this dispute once and for all. Sure, one side is going to be upset, but they'll just have to accept it and get over it. This drama mongering and incivility by some editors is simply ridiculous, and far past the point of enough. If DS is the only thing done, we'll end up with a large amount of editors who are eventually blocked, banned off, or simply quit on their own. There will always be a new editor who comes along wants to add or remove an infobox on an article due to the nature of Wikipedia, and without a style guide to look to the main article contributors feel like their article quality is reduced by such changes and react. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:15, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Serialjoepsycho
Someone can correct me if I wrong, but following the discussion at [4] it seems entirely a matter of preference whether or not to include or exclude an infobox. If this is the case then any consensus, regardless of quality argumentation, is based of either "I just like that" or "I just don't like that". In the short term Discretionary sanctions are a good idea. For the longer term though some other action needs to be taken. Again my understanding is the inclusion and exclusion of inboxes is a matter of preference, and if the inclusion or the exclusion of an infobox was less arbitrary it stands to reason that there would be less disruption. I assume that the creation of the appropriate policy or guideline is a matter for the community and not ARBCOM directly unless done as a matter of discretionary sanctions. That's a line I question if members of ARBCOM would be comfortable crossing though. Perhaps there i some means that ARBCOM could help in presenting this to the community? If my assumptions about the arbitrary nature of infoboxes is incorrect my apologies and thanks for your time.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 04:49, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
TLDR D/S stand to stop the disruption but it avoids addressing the root cause of the disruption. The root cause does seem to be addressable.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 05:01, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
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- @Drmies: It can't be ARBCOM who answers the question but can it be ARBCOM that frames the question? Speaking solely of dealing with the infoboxes of course. What is the general problem that comes up that makes people get into a discussion about whether an article should have a infobox? What is the most cited logic for exclusion or for inclusion? Should this logic be standardized in some way?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:33, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Dr. Blofeld
Everybody knows what my opinion is of this situation, and I'm not going to throw around accusations as we know who'll turn up asking for them to be struck down and censored. But I will say that there urgently needs to be a mechanism in place to stop arguments over infoboxes escalating into uncivil, time wasting discussions which last weeks. I'm with Laser brain and Mr. Ernie on this in particular, the blocking editors/topic bans will not address the root of the problem and only turn editors away, as there will always be more editors who will come along and try to add infoboxes and then people will be powerless to defend them.
What we badly need here is to recognize that a] Infoboxes are not compulsory. They are a stylistic preference which should not be enforced on others with a different view, and are at best a minor part of the wikipedia intrastructure at least in arts biographies where their actual informational value is generally less than it may be in articles on sportspeople, aircraft, skyscrapers etc b] Recognize that infobox enforcement is not a problem across the entire site, most articles go by without warring. Recognize that it is often the same names involved in the disputes and articles by the same authors often at the centre of disputes. It is Featured Article sin particular which are often at the centre of disputes, I think something needs to protect those articles in particular from warring after an article passes FA and there is a formal consensus on infobox or no infobox. c] Ultimately recognize that Featured and Good Article writers are extremely valuable to the project and that uncivil discussion over infoboxes increase the risk of people leaving. Acknowledge that FA/GA contributors spend dozens of hours improving articles which nobody else can be bothered to improve, so should have more leeway in stylistic preference as they do in making any other editorial decision to omit/include certian material, ref style and layout in writing the full article. This includes articles which may have previously had an infobox but were undeveloped and poorly written (as infobox protectionism is also a major part of disputes) I think it's those FAs and GAs which have had extreme hard work put into them and careful decision making which needs to be respected above all and people be assured that they can promote an article without later having to fight people from adding an infobox.
- @ GorillaWarfare, sorry I disagree that infobox discussion is ever likely to be civil. Your comment seems to demonstrate a distinct lack of understanding of a situation which is virtually always contentious. Yes, it might be possible to discuss it civilly, but in practice that far from happens, and you need to recognize that. In fact it's been one of the most bitter areas of confrontation on the site in recent years.♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:12, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
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- @ GorillaWarfare In most cases adding an infobox isn't contentious, and people do it and don't have to start a discussion. But in my experience when an editor comes along and says "why doesn't this have an infobox?" on a featured or good article and then starts a new thread to add one it tends to become a long discussion, usually with personal attacks involved. I agree that it shouldn't get uncivil but I'm yet to see an infobox discussion which isn't heated in some way myself.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:04, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Olive
- AE is not a solution. AE would be a punitive bandaid on the encyclopedia that is not punitive. AE is broken. One admin carries both the responsibility and pressure of deciding on a fair result, a situation that opens the door to both abuses of the system and undo pressure on one human being. Like other forums on Wikipedia AE can result in multiple and long comments, nothing different than an Arb clarification except that decisions are reached by one person instead of many. How can AE result in a better outcome than here?
- Info boxes are in my mind not strictly format issues. They are an alternative format for carrying content that can be read quickly. It can be frustrating to have created a long and well written article and to know a reader may choose to read only the most basic facts. However, very early and preliminary studies seem to indicate readers reading on a screen retain less information than if they experience the tactile, paper version of the information, remember less, and tend to scan (the left side of the screen) rather than read carefully. An info box then becomes a landing platform for the screen reader where he will see what he needs quickly per her tendency to scan and if the information is interesting enough may read the whole article. This has to be about the reader. We can't change how the screen is read, we can't change how human beings have come to read a screen, but we can be some of the first to understand and cater to the reader and perhaps lure them into reading more extensive knowledge.
- We have to deal with this issue with a deeper understanding and willingness to adjust per what works for our readers; we have to be in the forefront of understanding how readers read online. That has to be the discussion, a discussion which includes multiple inputs and opinions and the forging of something groundbreaking. We have to think outside the box here, and stop being stuck on what was, and we need the experienced editors to do the thinking and the collaborating rather than leaving the encyclopedia. We're here because what was didn't work for everyone. We need a larger solution which may put a stop to this kind of protracted and in the end usually unproductive discussion.(Littleolive oil (talk) 17:08, 1 September 2016 (UTC))
- On rereading some cmts: My cmts are not meant to address anyone in particular but are just opinions based on my own experience rather than replies to anyone.(Littleolive oil (talk) 23:18, 1 September 2016 (UTC))
Statement by Rschen7754
While I can see the rationale behind DS, I worry that the warning templates will be used as a weapon in areas that have used infoboxes for years with few issues. I also am concerned that we are moving closer to putting the whole site under DS. --Rschen7754 03:21, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Jo-Jo Eumerus
Breaking a little convention of mine, I'd like to suggest that any DS imposed in this topic area be preferably enforced by ways that don't involve Special:Block as the very first tool of enforcement, e.g by reverting or revdeleting violating edits or by edit filters. My impression is that we are not dealing with problems caused by SPAs or disruption-only accounts but with issue perpetrated by editors with mostly good contributions to the project, and the blocking tool (both as a first sanction or as a response to a ban violation) is poorly designed for such issues - for example it cannot be applied on a per group-of-pages or namespace specific basis. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 06:46, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Gerda
I agree with Opabinia regalis. I question Dr. Blofeld's "I disagree that infobox discussion is ever likely to be civil", - as much as I have enjoyed collaboration over many years. These discussions are no curse, they are as we make them. We could still start today:
- to not think of people who don't agree with us as a group, giving them group names, but as human beings
- to voice our opinion in small doses
- to accept preferences
- to not get more excited over infoboxes than other article features such as images and tables.
For a sample of pleasant conversations with a user who doesn't agree with me, see here.
For a recent example of a civil infobox discussion see here.
I have more than enough of the topic which I archived when the year began. If you see me on any article talk regarding the issue, remind me of this pledge. I invite you to my latest PR, part of Max Reger, my topic of the year. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:26, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Opabinia regalis: what could change my mind? I prefer this, concise information about the pictured person at a glance, to the plain picture. My mind was changed in 2012 when I found that redundant. Such a thing has been called "sabotage of what I have tried to accomplish" on this very page, and many other niceties in the article talk.
- @Laser brain: Would you please consider to stop using group names, and "pitch forks"? I gave some samples of peaceful infobox discussion, and could supply more. The "hot" discussions to which you seem to refer when you say "every time" are a minority. Why they get so much attention, I don't know. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:57, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- Again: are there groups? Yes, I am a member of several projects that "like" infoboxes (Infobox, Opera, Quality Article Improvement, etc), these projects also have other members, - in that respect you have groups. Black and white is too simple. I have enjoyed the collaboration of people you might see "on the other side": Dr. Blofeld and Tim riley, among others. When I write an article such as Requiem with Tim, I don't even bring up the question of an infobox, for respect. In The Company of Heaven, a collaboration of Tim, Nikkimaria and myself, we settled for a miniature infobox. There are many good options besides sanctions. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:39, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Yngvadottir: I agree with your voice for fighting "always" and "never". I disagree with your interpretation of the QAI list: While project members generally prefer articles with infoboxes we do not monitor a list "that keeps count of infobox additions and removals for the purpose of encouraging their addition as a general principle". The counting is (only) for three infoboxes created with the help of project members, and a list remembers articles where an infobox was reverted. The project knows nothing of infoboxes as a "general principle", but as a simple tool of accessibility. - Regarding GA and FA: it is not without irony that the article Noël Coward was TFA with an infobox. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:26, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Jcc
Any hope of civility without sanctions in the topic of infoboxes is simply wishful, naive thinking. One only needs to read Talk:Noel Coward to see the level of entrenchment between the two sides- and DS is needed, otherwise it will just be repeat of that every single time the topic is brought up. One editor has had 4 ANI threads by four different editors on ANI about their conduct in that thread, all of which have been closed, because what's really needed is DS. Sure, it won't solve the root cause, but it acts as an encouragement for editors to moderate their behaviour, and it'll help until we come up with a policy on infoboxes. jcc (tea and biscuits) 10:32, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Masem
I would strongly encourage the Committee to require the community to come to some MOS or the infobox equivalent of DATERET on how to determine when infoboxes should be include and how to appropriate breach the subject of how to seek a change (removal of a long-standing infobox, and/or addition of an infobox to an article that has lacked it). The one thing that I have found when reading through discussions on the infoboxes is very much an WP:OWNership aspect by those that have decided they didn't want an infobox on the articles they brought to GA/FA, and a view imcompatible with WP:CCC. The lack of a DATERET-type approach to avoid all these arguments on the process is what makes these discussions highly argumentive.
This should also be alongside a discussion to determine if it is possible from a technical standpoint to allow users to enable or disable infoboxes, as to help find a middle ground between the two stances on infoboxes. There is presently some discussion going on in WP:VPT towards this. --MASEM (t) 01:51, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- One comment on the SMC's comment in this diff: [5] - all material in an infobox should be duplicating content already in the article. If there is material in the infobox that is not part of the article, that's a problem. (Alternatively, the infobox should be seen as a way to sustinctly group useful data that are discussed in depth in an article, without having the reader have to read through and seek the data) This is why this should not be seen as a content issue but a style aspect, whether you provide that summary or not. --MASEM (t) 23:18, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- @RexxS : This is probably why having ArbCom force the community to sit down to come to an understanding of what purpose infoboxes serve and when or when not to include them and how to address debates on that after the fact, needs to be done. If we have infoboxes that include pertinent information that is not required to be repeated in the prose, then they become somewhat mandated to be included, which I know is an objection by those wanting to avoid their use. Not including some of this information in prose also becomes an accessibility issue. But this page is not the place to hash out the problems, just that I think we need ArbCom to make use stop ignoring the elephant in the room and come to some consensus on these. --MASEM (t) 16:00, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Yngvadottir
I strongly encourage the committee to reaffirm its ruling in the original infoboxes case that infoboxes are neither compulsory nor deprecated and should be discussed on a case-by-case basis, and otherwise to refrain from ruling in the matter.
The MOS is commonly used as a bludgeon; some of the wisest rulings on Wikipedia have concerned allowing variant usage to stand in the interests of our mission: to be an encyclopa/edia that anyone can edit: WP:CITEVAR, WP:ENGVAR. On the other hand the ruling on capitalisation of species names lost us an entire cohort of expert editors in the field of ornithology, in the name of a specious consistency.
People will always disagree about the merits of infoboxes, depending on the areas in which they work (they make good sense for athletes, ships, species, and films; they are appallingly reductive for any person with a varied body of work and in many other areas), their visual image of an encyclopedia, the priority they assign to facilitating automated use of our content (to me a negative), their approach to accessibility, their empathy for those trying to load increasingly template-heavy Wikipedia pages, and other variables I probably haven't even thought of. (I was trying not to mention also that the presence of an infobox also entrains many other issues ArbCom has grappled with recently, such as how to and whether to list a person's religion and ethnicity. But damnit, I think it's relevant.) It's an intractable difference of opinion with valid general arguments on both sides that, for me, weigh heavier on one side or the other in specific articles; I applaud Arbcom's wisdom in having ruled out as invalid the argument that there must be an infobox in any specific case, or that there must never be an infobox.
But that has not been enforced. I recently participated in an MfD for a project page that keeps count of infobox additions and removals for the purpose of encouraging their addition as a general principle. Discussions on talk pages present ample examples of generalized pro-infobox argument. And any broad RfC would of necessity boil down to consideration of the generalization, not of specific cases. That's analogous to variation in citation formats. People will always have varying opinions, and making a general rule will just weaken the encyclopedia to no purpose by driving off editors.
In particular, just as the project page I referred to above is under a project named for quality improvement, a number of excellent content producers have focussed increasingly on the GA and FA processes in part because the review of such an article provides a certification that the article was good or excellent without an infobox (or with a collapsed one). That's a valid argument should a challenge arise on the issue, but a sad reason for people to withdraw from creating new articles or improving some of our bad stubs. The underlying reason is not an unwillingness to work collaboratively, it's that what ArbCom once recognized as an area in which editors may legitimately hold differing opinions has not been treated as such as per ArbCom's ruling. Reaffirm that. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:03, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Wehwalt
I would not take the case, or amend it, unless arbitrators truly feel they can solve the issue by doing so, not just because nothing so far has worked. So far I see no indication that they so feel. Nor do I see any proposal on this page that I would bet more than ten cents on. Accordingly, I would deny the request.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:52, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Infoboxes: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Infoboxes: Arbitrator views and discussion
- At the moment I'm inclined towards imposing DS on the area. I don't see a need for another case. I might be convinced otherwise but I really wouldn't look forward to it. Doug Weller talk 16:56, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- Might as well give DS a try. Nothing else has worked so far... Salvio Let's talk about it! 17:42, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not opposed to authorizing discretionary sanctions here. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 20:10, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- Hmm. In the last infobox-related ARCA, I (and others, but I remember my own posts best! :) suggested that someone who wants DS for infoboxes should file a new ARCA request on that point. No one did. Now we have another request about something related, where several people who commented on the previous request stop by to again ask for DS. (OK, I'm not sure what if anything that says, but it somehow seems significant.) I disagree with some of the comments above that this is a "style issue" and can be subsumed into existing mechanisms for handling such things - a look at the thread on the requests page clearly establishes that there is no consensus about whether infoboxes are style or content or something in between. However, I'm concerned that traditional DS applied to the topic of "infoboxes" will end up picking off participants one by one and dragging out the drama. There are also large areas of the project where infoboxes are not controversial. I think we need to be careful of unintended consequences. Opabinia regalis (talk) 22:45, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- Whether or not you think it's uncivil or a personal attack or whatever, I don't see the value in discussing individuals admins here, especially those not currently active at AE. Let's spend our time on more useful discussions.
- The tone of discussions related to this subject has become excessively personalized. (There's my entry in the understatement of the year competition.) Relatedly, I think we all agree that nobody wants to see editors leaving the project over this, even in part, and I certainly hope those who are frustrated with this debate return after a break.
- This is a question for people on all sides of the debate: what kind of information would convince you to change your mind? What could you learn about editors or readers that would make you think "OK, at first I thought this article should/shouldn't have an infobox, but now I think the opposite"? Positions on the subject have clearly become entrenched over years of arguing, but what seems to me to be lacking is empirical evidence. If we can at least talk about what kind of evidence people find convincing, maybe we can move forward. Opabinia regalis (talk) 18:39, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks to all who answered my question above, and apologies that I haven't had time to read the answers yet - it's a long weekend :) Opabinia regalis (talk) 07:39, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- I think authorizing discretionary sanctions is an appropriate next step to trying to address this problem. I am not inclined to grant the two amendments requested by the filer. I'm not sure I'd ever support amending a case principle, simply because they're mainly there so that we can agree on background information. Changing it would not have any effect on current practice, since the principles do not authorize any remedies. The two-revert suggestion also seems misguided, as it's entirely possible to have a civil, productive conversation in this topic area while also making more than two posts. I feel like it would simply stymie productive discussion, and encourage repeated RfCs on very similar issues. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:01, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
- @Dr. Blofeld: Thryduulf perhaps said it better than me in his comment above. There are plenty of discussions involving infoboxes that are perfectly normal; usually on pages where it's already been decided that there should be an infobox. I am not saying that there is no issue involving infoboxes; I've was active on the Infobox case review in 2015 and have also weighed in on various ARCAs regarding the cases, so I'm fully aware that it is an intensely problematic area. I simply want to avoid imposing restrictions that are so broad that a few editors can't even discuss, say, whether a person's previous occupation is relevant to include in an infobox. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:54, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
- I am apprehensive about placing close to 90% of the 'pedia under DS --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 04:19, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Laser brain: the MOS itself is under DS but not pages that use the MOS. The issues never spilled over into individual articles in the same way that infoboxen have. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 22:23, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- @Thryduulf: and we would be back here again in a month defining what "major changes" are. Anything narrow goes through the merry-go-round and everything broad places more things under DS that ever have before. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 22:23, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- DS is punitive, by definition. I echo the sentiment of Rexx and Mike Christie (if not all parts of their statement), and some others, that what is urgently needed is a spirit of cooperation. And beer of course. What led to this? Comments by Cassianto which were deemed uncollegial (ahem) but were not handled/sanctioned at ANI? If we impose DS, don't we just shift that burden (of admonishing longterm content editors who sometimes lose their cool, maybe) to the few poor schmucks who patrol AE? The only "benefit" that can come out of it, and I'm putting that word in quotes since its beneficial nature will be a matter of contention, is not the block (Cassianto, for instance, has been blocked plenty) but a topic ban. Some will find that beneficial, others will not. The thing is (in my opinion) that if Cassianto (and I'm using him as an example because the filer did) somehow deserves a topic ban in this area for continued incivility, you don't need DS for all these articles to do it. Such a drastic measure directed at one editor really should be community imposed, not handed out by one of the aforementioned poor schmucks at AE. And if the community decides that such a measure is not appropriate, well, then the community has spoken--which is better, and will produce less bad blood, than one admin handing out a punishment whose consequences will be far-reaching.
I don't think I'm sticking my head in the sand: I am also well aware of the enormous weight placed on infoboxes. But if editor x" is the problem, then deal with editor x. If infoboxes are the problem, deal with infoboxes. I do not believe that this is one of these cases where the problem of problematic editors in a problematic field (In a nutshell: problematic because it is not a problem that can be solved with RS or NPOV.) can be dealt with by imposing the kind of discipline that deals with neither an individual editor or the topic as a whole. Drmies (talk) 16:45, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
- Laser brain, that is not what I see in this case request, which seems to focus on a. the behavior of one contributor and b. the lack of action taken at ANI in regard to that behavior. Drmies (talk) 17:18, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
- Thryduulf, I dig where you're coming from but I'm not feeling you completely. Sure, succinct--that's cool, but this is so succinct that I see little more than "we need to find a way to get rid of people like Cassianto". The rest of what I see, besides the call for DS, is the usual elements of any infobox discussion. So I cannot, from this request, infer that we should write up a case to take up again. If y'all want a real case, if you want to renegotiate the old one, then ask for one. (After I retire to Nassau, of course.) But again, I do not see the purpose for DS--and DS is, as one other editor pointed out above, also abused as a tool to chill and intimidate. Again I ask why one would want one admin to impose sanctions (at AE) when a group of admins couldn't (at ANI). I get that ANI is dysfunctional, and maybe AN is better, but if it can't be done there, what would y'all want from that one poor admin at AE? And did you read my objections to this request? You seem to focus only on the "no" part... Drmies (talk) 00:59, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- Laser brain, sure, frequently there's more than one schmuck at AE, but not always, and I think this is one of those almost intractable cases where DS is just not a good idea, esp. not if we're doing that to make up for a failure at AN. The same admin(s) you want to enforce DS could be shopping around at AN, and they don't need more of a warrant to place a block there then they would at AE. DS, IMO, is much more suitable to topic areas like ARBPIA and BALKAN and whatnot, where you have old axes to grind but especially new and drive-by editors. The threatening language of DS is much more of a deterrent in such areas than it is in this, where the dispute is so old and the parties so entrenched. What kinds of solutions are sought? Blocks (and thus deterrents) for a. editors who breach decorum and b. editors who turn discussions into quagmires. (I don't think I saw much of a consensus on some kind of limit of postings.) Bring a case to AN--hey, editor X is calling us sons of bitches. If it's a real attack or whatever and admins won't block, then we have bigger problems that DS won't fix. This is just my opinion. Drmies (talk) 17:50, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- LaughingVulcan, what I see is a case that started about one editor and calls for very broad measures. I don't know about double jeopardy; I do know that the ANI thread was closed without solution and that we shouldn't block someone now for something that happened weeks or months ago and found no consensus then. I continue to think that we do not need DS to enforce one little thing from an earlier case, decorum, a thing that should be enforceable throughout the project through the normal means. OK, let's say that editor X did that terrible thing and no one blocked them for it because ANI is a groupshithole or something like that. Should ArbCom get involved because 1500 admins and a couple thousand editors can't agree to do something about something basic? We are better off bringing better cases to AN and keeping the discussion in check--and we should let admins do that, and we should allow admins the leeway to keep those discussions in check. I have spoken about that frequently: admins should run AN. They have that leeway already; they should use it. Face it, no one likes ArbCom, no one wants ArbCom involved--if you find better ways to manage the problems you won't need us. At least not for this one. Drmies (talk) 17:58, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- Smeat75, "how?", you said. Good question--but it can't be ArbCom that decides on the basic question, infobox yes or no. Drmies (talk) 18:00, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Motions
Requests for enforcement
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by No More Mr Nice Guy
Consensus is to grant the appeal. The restriction is lifted effective immediately. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:11, 3 September 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by No More Mr Nice GuyIt has been 3 years and this sanction was imposed for a one time incident on my otherwise completely clean record. It is not serving any preventative purpose per WP:BLOCKPREVENTATIVE at this point so can only be punitive. @The Wordsmith: I didn't have any particular participation in mind, to be honest. It's just that not only is this the only blot on my record, which I would like removed, I also got a little tired of people trying to use it against me, like here. It's been 3 years, this sanction can't possibly be serving a preventative purpose, if it even did to begin with. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:43, 1 September 2016 (UTC) @Zscarpia: Thank you for illustrating the chilling effect this sanction has had on editors' willingness to complain about certain types of harassment. I didn't connect the two until now. Statement by SandsteinPlease refer to my comments on my talk page linked to above. I haven't followed AE for some time now and leave it to more active admins to determine whether any grounds for granting this appeal exist. I haven't seen any so far. Sandstein 05:38, 1 September 2016 (UTC) Statement by KingsindianSurely a sanction imposed three years ago ought to be removed without any requirement to grovel. Compare WP:SO. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 12:32, 1 September 2016 (UTC) Statement by NomoskedasticityPerhaps there's no need to grovel, but given the nature of the contribution(s) for which NMMNG's AE ban was imposed, it might help to know what sort of recent discussions NMMNG would have wanted to contribute to if he had been able. I'm not sure AE discussions are suffering from lack of input from highly-partisan editors, and it might well be worth looking for evidence that the nature of the proposed contributions would in fact be different from what we saw. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:23, 1 September 2016 (UTC) Statement by Sir JosephI think this appeal should be granted. A 3 year ban from AE for a very weak reason is enough time served in my opinion. Looking at past AE actions, I can see many actions that should not have been brought and not sure why this one warranted a block. Regardless, even if it were 100% warranted and NMMNG was a horrible rotten person, it's been three years and it's time to give him a break. Sir Joseph (talk) 19:33, 1 September 2016 (UTC) Statement by NishidaniI would have preferred not to comment, but Four Deuces below more or less espouses NMMGG's endlessly repeated thesis that I am a Jew baiter. That has been exhaustively reviewed, and dismissed, and protesting the decision is not material to NMMGG's request, which I have no problem in endorsing. Modern legal process, since Cesare Beccaria has rightly buried the religious idea that punishment is eternal, and even permabans, as in my case, can be revoked. I would appreciate however that The Four Deuces read my evidential reply to the nonsense jerry-rigged in the original complaint. This is no place to rehearse it, but it was so unfocused that, NMMGG could claim as evidence of my having symptoms of that pathology things like:
the cornerstone of Judaism: the idea of bechira. We believe that we are an am hanivchar, a chosen people, an am segula, a treasured people. I believe collectivist statements like this are incorrect, since it is obvious that there is no such thing as an ideologically inclusive definition of ethnicity, meaning 'Jews/Arabs/Eskimos/Americans/Russians/Chinese/Catholics/shamans all think or do this or that' are hot air, vapidly empty propositions, diagnosed as a category mistake with perduring inciveness by Gilbert Ryle in his masterpiece, The Concept of Mind. For several years, NMMGG has repeated his conviction that wiki arbitrators are tone-deaf to anti-Semitic utterances, most recently here and here, and is keen to rally back users disenchanted with the place, I don't know whether to that end or not. Precisely because sanctions, however harsh, should have a use-by expiry date if evidence exists of an ability to return and participate positively in constructing Wikipedia, and because refusal to repeal this would probably only confirm the, I believe, parlously flawed conviction arbs are intrinsically 'anti-Zionist' and complicit with anti-Semitic people (like, in his view, myself), the appeal should be accepted.Nishidani (talk) 10:32, 2 September 2016 (UTC) Statement by ZscarpiaSpeaking as an editor whom No More Mr Nice Guy seems to be currently lining up for accusations of antisemitism [7], perhaps this is what he means by his current ban serving no useful purpose. (Apologies for the slightly tongue-in-cheek nature of this comment) ← ZScarpia 13:47, 2 September 2016 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by No More Mr Nice GuyThe original ban does not seem to make any sense. No More Mr Nice Guy had complained about an editor for "Jew-baiting, trolling and soapboxing." In their first example, the editor referred to Jews as the "Chosen People." It was an ironic reference, since s/he was mocking the Jewish claim to Israel. He called the Jewish holiday Purim a "a double story of attempted and successful genocide." S/he makes many other allusions references to Nazi Germany when discussing Israel, thereby implying that what Israel does today is the same thing. While a comparison could be made between racial policies of Israel and Nazi Germany, they are only relevant in a talk page if there is a proposal to add them to an article. Otherwise they are merely intended to provoke other editors. I do not know if the edits were so objectionable they should have resulted in action by AE. But at least they were sufficiently inflammatory that a reasonable editor could complain about them. TFD (talk) 03:54, 2 September 2016 (UTC) Result of the appeal by No More Mr Nice Guy
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SashiRolls
SashiRolls topic banned from Jill Stein and related pages for six months. NW (Talk) 19:30, 3 September 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning SashiRolls
These edits are all at Jill Stein (clearly in scope for American politics): Violation of 1RR restriction on GMO content:
Against a background of repeated slow edit warring: And POV-pushing:
Continues WP:Battleground after this AE has opened, blames everyone except self:
I leave it to the patrolling administrators to assess how much SashiRolls is self-aware about the issues here, how well TFD understands what was determined about DS for GMOs after such a very long struggle, and whether there is any truth to the silly claims that I have been disruptive at the Stein page. --Tryptofish (talk) 13:56, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
@Laser brain: Please note that I just added diffs of continued edit warring today, and weigh that in whether a warning will prove effective. Also, although I accept that, in terms of possible sanctions, AP2 is more central that GMO, please consider that GMORFC was intended to put an end to arguments, and without a clear statement now at AE, some editors will continue to argue that anything goes on pages other than the pages listed at the RfC. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:52, 2 September 2016 (UTC) A warning will be fruitless, and ANI would be a drama-fest of arguing content. Either DS mean something, or let's shut AE down. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:18, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
Discussion concerning SashiRollsStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SashiRollsGiven Snoogannsnoogans' invective laden and patently false accusations, I will ask until Monday at 17:00 to respond completely, as Snoogannsnoogans hasn't really understood that Tryptofish may well be making a larger WP:Point, not entirely involving me, by bringing me here. Snooganssnoogans first censored me on the 13 Aug, here. Between the 11 Aug and 16 July he made 16 reverts (all of other people). His first revert on the page was the 29th of June. His reverts are of two types: to delete content that he feels support a positive image of Stein, or to do defend as the status quo content that he feels support a negative image of Stein. These are the facts concerning the user's interventions on the article. Concerning Tryptofish's assertion that the 1RR applies in the GMO section, I solicited input from the closing admins of the GMO debate who declined to comment. The Four Deuces and I both looked into his assertion and do not find it credible. Tryptofish, who is apparently somewhat famous, is clearly a very experienced Wiki-warrior given his past interactions with the Arbitration Committee. Having learned this from a google search trying to find clues as to what the "trypto" could mean, I decided to proceed cautiously, including the entire "proposition 1" of that debate in the article (3-4 lines of texts with lengthy references), because Tryptofish seemed like he wanted to create trouble in that section. He reverted this commonsense peaceful solution here. I'm also not sure why s/he wanted to include this article ("Media coverage thin for presidential candidates’ science awareness and views"), almost entirely about Clinton & Trump (with one sentence dismissing his own Weissmann reference) and pointing fingers at ScienceDebate.org to support his claim that many articles are calling Stein "contrary to science" (diff). This, in the context of a great deal of pushback concerning normal wikipedia spin-off procedures for political candidates pages (afd that he encouraged, but hasn't yet voted in (4 delete, 3 keep, currently)...) POV-pushing (ref-name change): Tryptofish's 2nd and 3rd diffs in this section do not refer to my edits (cf. the chaotic (& snarky) removal of material and vast operation of multiple reference renaming, which added confusion to the page (I was not involved in these decision to snark with significant chunks of content). In sum I changed one reference name in the first "diff", waiting for the "stray link fixed bot" to come and pick it up. I stayed on the page to see if it would. It didn't. I fixed what I had done by replacing all 16 references to the same article, introduced all in one edit by another editor here. I admit this was to make a point after having seen yet another bit of (what I consider to have been) trolling cluttering the head of a sub-section that has caused much grief and hard work in the last month with a gossipy quote that had nothing to do with anything: (diff). I figred if Tryptofish could troll with impunity I could draw attention to a serious problem: Snooganssnoogans's particularly lopsided edit here, in which introductions and conclusions of Jill Stein's arguments were cited, but the argument itself strangely disappeared from at least some of the 16 quotes s/he added from the WaPo. (cf. talk here). Tryptofish does not mention this context of consistent disruptive editing, nor does he mention his own, somewhat more troubling, history of it: he came to the Jill Stein thread on the 20th of August, with very pointed stated goals (vaccines, GMOs and pesticides interventions in the article) and added lots of "menacing" warnings about AE in his/her participation in the talk thread. I will not comment on the POV that Tryptofish may or may not be pushing, as I don't understand his actions. Regarding the diffs that are said to relate to "slow edit warring". In an environment of (occasionally) diametrically opposed viewpoints, and on a page where one editor has been going up to 3RR frequently on a regular basis in July and August (I came to the thread only in August myself), it is not surprising to find that I made 2 reverts on a section recently marked by another user as non-neutral precisely because of the text concerned. Repeated requests have been made to the editor to rework the paragraph he has added and reworked over time, to no avail. [10]. I have likewise had to remove an unreliable source that the user deliberately smuggled back into the article at [15:10 27 Aug 2016, after admitting the source had failed a basic fact-check talk 15:04 27 Aug 2016 and should not be included.
I have responded at length on my talk page and at Talk:Jill_Stein#WP:DUE + cite Talk:Jill_Stein#from_WP:Edit_warring + diff of earlier menacing thousand-year comment from notifier, which I chose to remove from my talk page. SashiRolls (talk) 15:29, 3 September 2016 (UTC) Statement by clpo13I take full ownership of this edit. In my defense, SashiRolls felt that the interview was accorded undue weight, so I figured I'd see what all would have to go if the source wasn't used. Turns out there was a lot. Well, I put it all back and received a (rightful) admonishment about being WP:POINTy, which I've taken to heart. Anyways, SashiRoll's original complaint was vague, and a follow-up response clarified that the real issue was WaPo's apparent bias against Sanders (and by extension Stein, I guess). But that still comes across as "WaPo doesn't like my candidate so we shouldn't use it as a reference". It took a fair bit of needling to get any further explanation. I can understand the sentiment that no Wikipedia article should rely so much on a single article, but this wasn't a good way to go about making an objection since it wasn't clear to many people what the issue actually was. As a final note: relying on the bot to fix the reference names probably wasn't the best idea, since over an hour passed between the first change and my fix, during which time the source was inaccessible to readers. clpo13(talk) 23:37, 1 September 2016 (UTC) Statement by The Four DeucesJill Stein is not a "page[] relating to genetically modified organisms, commercially produced agricultural chemicals and the companies that produce them, broadly construed." Earlier, it was determined in a request for clarification in which Tryptofish participated, that Bernie Sanders was not a page related to GMOs. (See: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically modified organisms.) Both Stein and Sanders are or were 2016 presidential candidates who are critics of GMOs. Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Genetically modified organisms applies to 11 named articles and "will be implemented, broadly construed, for other articles in the subject area." Furthermore, there is no template for GMO on the talk page, although there is one for "American politics 2." 1RR is not part of U.S. politics general sanctions[11] and would be too draconian for such a wide topic area. Trypofish falsely claimed at Talk:Jill Stein, "I want to make it very clear to editors that the content that I reverted violates the [GMO] Discretionary Sanctions linked above, because it alters the language that was established in the community RfC about GMOs. Editors must not make up alternative language, and doing so will result in Arbitration Enforcement." [20:55, 27 August 2016[12]] While the closing adminstrator determined the consensus of the RfC and set discretionary sanctions, those sanctions were not for disgreeing with the determination of facts in the RfC. Ironically, Stein has not said that currently manufactured GMO food is unsafe. The articles in The Washington Post and others are cited in the article as the opinions of their authors, not as statements of fact. While SashiRolls unfortunately says the paper is not rs, he actually argues that it is biased, and provides an article originally published in Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting ("Washington Post Ran 16 Negative Stories on Bernie Sanders in 16 Hours") as a source.[13] [22:43, 31 August 2016[14]] The paper's editorial board has called Trump a "clear and present danger."[15] although it has not yet endorsed Clinton. It is not a stretch of the imagination to assume that at least some of the opinions expressed in the paper have a partisan tinge. The article by Steven T. Corneliussen, ""Media coverage thin for presidential candidates’ science awareness and views", in Physics Today, does not "clearly agree[] with the criticism" of Stein, as Tryptofish says. [1 September 2016[16]] It says only, "An opinion piece at Slate dismissed Green Party candidate Jill Stein as “a Harvard-trained physician who panders to pseudoscience” concerning genetically modified organisms, pesticides, “quack medicine,” and vaccine efficacy. If anything it draws into question the extensive concentration on science issues that Trypofish has shown. Tryptofish was an involved party in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically modified organisms. It appears that his interest in that topic has brought him to the Jill Stein article and blurs his neutrality. S/he has not provided edits on any Green-related articles except to add opinions that they are anti-science. TFD (talk) 00:03, 2 September 2016 (UTC) Statement by Timothyjosephwood
Statement by snooganssnoogansThe user SashiRolls has for the last few weeks engaged in constant disruptive editing on the Jill Stein page. I'll try to limit this text to just recent examples of disruptive behavior. The user repeatedly:
References
- Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:38, 2 September 2016 (UTC) Statement by NeutralityI agree completely with Snooganssnoogans and Timothyjosephwood others who have commented. On Stein and Stein-related articles, SashiRolls' sustained course of conduct has been completely unacceptable, and the array of problems is broad: everything from casting aspersions to personal attacks to POV-pushing. I also agree with Timothyjosephwood that it would be wise to act on this report relatively rapidly. If this file weren't open, this matter might well be up at ANI for discussion of a possible topic ban of SashiRolls. Neutralitytalk 18:24, 3 September 2016 (UTC) Result concerning SashiRolls
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Sahrin
User:Sahrin is warned for personal attacks and reminded that edits about gun control are expected to be neutral. EdJohnston (talk) 20:41, 7 September 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Sahrin
The following starters are from the EWN case just a couple days ago the EWN case closed just a day ago
The EWN notice resulted in Sahrin being blocked for edit warring by User:Someguy1221. First three contribs upon returning:
I took at shot at talking with them, ignoring the attacks and strangeness: dif
I have to imagine that this is why Arbcom sets up enduring DS on this topic; I don't even edit gun topics, but I am a "Gun zealot"? It is crazy. Every edit they have made since this started has been laden with personal attack and emotion; typical of these issues that have DS on them. But this is over top; there is no room to work here. I don't want to bring content into this, but there is also a WP:CIR thing going on here, as the Dickey Amendment doesn't say what Sahrin thinks it does, - this is really simple;
It is/was not even a hard issue to resolve in some ways. I ~think~ maybe Sahrin wants to say something about the effect of the Dickey Amendment on researchers but with all the aggression, attacks, and demands, and tangle, I can't figure out what that might be. The behavior and approach to other editors makes working it out way uglier than anything has to be in WP and there is no reason to put up with this. This is what DS are for; please apply them.
Discussion concerning SahrinStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SahrinI can only laugh bemusedly at this entire affair. From day one Jytdog has behaved aggressively and harassed me. Based on the evidence that is available in the logs, it can be seen that Jytdog's initial and repeated effort was to revert a consensus version of the article that was achieved a few weeks before this incident. He was saved from a 3RR violation only by brigading the article (ie, summoning either a like-minded user, or a sock puppet account to revert so that he did not jeopardize his own account). I admit I was not aware of the "bright line" 3RR rule, but overturning an existing consensus (which contained both the content of the law in question; as the initial 'other side' advocated; as well as the actual cause of the controversy (the effort to censor researchers) seemed grounds for aggressive action. I was banned, and was wrong to revert three times without logging into an alt account as Jytdog did. The issue began, though, when Jytdog, after seeing my reverts, initiated an aggressive program of harassment - making three separate edits to my user talk page (all evidenced in his links above so I won't reproduce them) in response to a *single edit.* His every effort appeared to be to entrap me into a 3RR violation, including very strong language in comments in edit notes like "This is not optional." I admit, I was frustrated, and reverted three times. But the notion that anything is being done but normal revision of an article that is being interfered with by Jytdog is absolutely hilarious. His behavior has gone over the line time and again, and when this is pointed out to him (that he is harassing me and brigading an article) he responds with "personal attacks! personal attacks!" That's all fine, but the evidence just isn't there for that behavior. With the exception of the 3RR I have remained civil and results oriented at all times, meanwhile Jytdog seems to be interested in carrying out a personal vendetta against me...why I cannot say. There are a number of problems with Jytdog's version of events:
In short, I don't have a comprehensive understanding of all the WP:Policy bits. I made an error before in the 3RR situation, and I apologize for that. But what going on here is a very passionate editor has lost perspective on a situation, and is trying to push his own feeling too far. I've been editing WP for...13 years now, I believe. If the Arb committee decides it's my time to go, then it's my time. Thanks for the good times, it was a fun project to contribute to.
Added 21:30 UTC: So I have reviewed Jytdog's block log. It appears he has been banned permanently on two separate instances for similar behaviors, only to be unbanned after appealing to the Arb Committee. I can't see into the committee's deliberations myself, but if I've ever heard of a case of misplaced aggression/transferrance this appears to follow it to a textbook. In my entire history with WP I have never had any interaction with Admins or disciplinary groups, until Jytdog. Sahrin (talk) 21:32, 2 September 2016 (UTC) Added 2016-19-05 1746 UTC: Comment on the admin's page *was not about this issue.* This was stated several times and for the record above. Comments regarding neutrality of other editors were made only after my neutrality was questioned, and repeated reverts were made without substantiation for the revert. As I noted, I became frustrated and committed the 3RR. I have already backed away from the dispute; I made a further comment on the talk page which failed to achieve consensus and have not said anything further on the topic. The evidence for "whitewashing" is readily available - there were repeated attempts to remove factually true information from an article to present a particular viewpoint (that there was no controversy), I must admit I find it frustrating that the admins in question have not seen this in the record; if agreeing to remove myself from the situation is what causes this to blow over then I'm totally down with it. As far as de-escalating, I will not have anything further to do with the topic or certainly the editor in question. I have received messages from several other editors criticizing the neutrality/behavior of the editor in question in the past, and need no further convincing that he is not someone I want to be involved with. Sahrin (talk) 21:51, 5 September 2016 (UTC) Added 2016-09-06 1000 UTC: The editor in question did not follow the editorial process. If it is against Wikipedia policy to point this out, it seems like it would be impossible for me to end up in this situation (ie, accused of not following processes). This is the point that is unclear to me, and the reason that such comments can't be 'withdrawn.' The evidence is strong, and while I'm eager to work with all editors I can't ignore strong evidence. My question is: If it is acceptable for the editor in question to accuse me of violating wikipedia policy, why is it unacceptable for me to do the same? An answer from any neutral party could profitably resolve the dispute. Failing an answer, as I have said I will have nothing further to do with the editor in question so it's a moot point in either case. Sahrin (talk) 10:04, 6 September 2016 (UTC) Statement by OIDPlease note in the above statement where Sahrin accuses Jytdog of socking to avoid 3rr ("I was banned, and was wrong to revert three times without logging into an alt account as Jytdog did."). Dont think anything more needs to be said. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:24, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning Sahrin
Yeah, this is what I'm talking about. Continued harassment doesn't change the integrity of the process, nor does it change the facts of this issue. I'm not sure why you think threatening me is going to help settle an editorial dispute. I'm not sure why intimidation is your solution to an editorial dispute. It'd be great if instead of continually attempting to brigade the article in question and get people "on your side" you'd stick to following the editorial process. Not a single comment on the content...just more threats and intimidation. *sigh* Sahrin (talk) 03:48, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
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Orasis
Orasis (talk · contribs) is banned from the WP:ARBPIA topic area, broadly construed, for 6 months. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:36, 6 September 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Orasis
Discussion concerning OrasisStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by OrasisI will not appeal shit, I will change my IP. The fact that only the Israeli view is allowed here is apparent. I will return, eat shit. Statement by (username)Result concerning Orasis
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Philip Cross
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Philip Cross
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Nomoskedasticity (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 10:55, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Philip Cross (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- DS 1RR restriction on Jeremy Corbyn [24]
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 5 Sept, 10:57, "Reverted good faith edits by MShabazz (talk)" revert obvious in the edit summary
- 6 Sept., 10:04 "+ citation about Corbyn's association with alleged antisemites & Holocaust deniers (*one^ sentence on this issue, plus citation, is not tendentious one would have thought)", is a revert by virtue of restoring mention of Corbyn's alleged "anti-Semitism", previously added twice by Philip Cross on 2 Sept. e.g. here (immediately following deletion by a different editor). The edit summary of this most recent edit shows awareness that there have been previous attempts to add something along these lines.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
The second revert uses a different source (i.e., not the same as with his first attempt to add this material on 2 Sept.). But it is a revert all the same insofar as it attempts to have the Jeremy Corbyn article include implication of the idea that he is an anti-Semite (has been accused of, is indifferent to, etc.). Different sources and different ways of expressing the idea don't hide the underlying impulse here. Also worth noting is that the issue is under discussion on the talk page ([25]), where it's entirely evident that there is no consensus to add a particular passage along these lines.
Finally, attempt to raise the point with the editor on his talk page did not succeed: [26].
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Philip Cross
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Philip Cross
Most of the other users on the talkpage opposing any mention of the issue of Jeremy Corbyn and the antisemitism issue are stonewalling in my opinion, and unable to acknowledge any other viewpoint as being valid. The citation Nomoskedasticity mentions was on 2 September, not within the last 24 years. In the 2 September addition, I did not claim Corbyn is "indifferent" to the issue in the article itself, nor make a direct claim about his attitudes. The objection of other users is to a tweet I added by the Times journalist Oliver Kamm (cited to a reliable source) and is a matter of interpretation over which there is disagreement. The issue of Corbyn's past association with (quoting from my edit today which Nomoskedasticity cites) "alleged antisemites and Holocaust deniers" has repeatedly been referred to in the British media, and internationally, yet other editors cannot accept this is notable and should be included in the main Corbyn article. My new mention of this issue consists of one sentence, and a citation. Hardly excessive. There is a related issue concerning the talkpage discussion. Many editors are unwilling to countenance the inclusion in the article of the issue of online sexist and homophobic, as well as antisemite abuse, by people who claim to be Corbyn's supporters. The issue of Corbyn's apparent inability to deal with the abuse issue has again frequently been raised. For instance, by many of the former shadow ministers who resigned from Labour's shadow cabinet last June, other Labour MPs who were among the 172 who supported a motion of no confidence in Corbyn, and commentators in the media. Since this complaint was filed, I have added Corbyn's responses. I usually add opposing views, or opinions I do not share, in such instances. The Labour Party is split over the issue of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, probably the most serious crisis the party has faced in more than 80 years (the party had a major split in 1931, and a more minor one in 1981), with a new split being openly discussed because of Corbyn's leadership, yet this article barely touches on any of this. Philip Cross (talk) 12:47, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Kingsindian
If this was a WP:1RR violation, it was pretty minor and borderline. There's lots of discussion on the talkpage, both before and since. Normal content dispute procedures are being followed. Suggest closing with no action. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 16:45, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Philip Cross
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- It's late here so apologies if I'm missing something obvious.
I see DS are on this page--presumably with the BLP DS area?--but where was the 1RR restriction imposed?Lord Roem ~ (talk) 05:32, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Volunteer Marek
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Volunteer Marek
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- The Four Deuces (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 23:20, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2#Discretionary sanctions (1932 cutoff) : request 2 month topic ban on articles related to the 2016 U.S. elections.
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 00:39, 15 August 2016 "...your previous source - the Clinton Cash book - has been shown to be fringe nutjobbery."
- 16:04, 6 September 2016 ""Clinton Cash". A fringe far right conspiracy theory book."
- 05:17, 6 September 2016 "No, the extent of coverage between this and the email "controversy" is tremendous. It's mountain vs. molehill. Most of this article consists of POV laden WP:SYNTHESIS. The only sources really are a single AP story and then several stories slamming that AP story. And yes, the purpose of this article is solely to circumvent consensus on the Clinton Foundation article. The POV is obvious and obnoxious. As is the WP:GAMEing. This is also a cynical attempt to do a run around discretionary sanctions on American Politics articles. The creator of this article - and you as well - know from experience that adding garbage content to an existing article can be challenged, and then it is up to the person wishing to add it to get consensus for inclusion. It's painfully obvious that most of the content of this thing would not get such consensus. So you guys went and created a separate article for all the junk you know you wouldn't be able to get into the legitimate article. This is disruptive behavior, clear and simple, and it's actually fairly stunning in its cynicism and disrespect for Wikipedia policy."
- 14:14, 25 August 2016 "How are we gonna deal with that? Man, this guy makes the life of a Wikipedia editor hard."
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 06:35 25 July 2016
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
The following comments are in explanation of the edit differences provided above:
Clinton Cash is a book by Peter Schweizer and published by HarperCollins. The book was reviewed in the New York Times[28] and other mainstream media. The Times review said, "“Clinton Cash” is potentially more unsettling [than other books about the Clintons], both because of its focused reporting and because major news organizations including The Times, The Washington Post and Fox News have exclusive agreements with the author to pursue the story lines found in the book."
While the author is a conservative and his analysis of the Clintons may differ from liberal observers, there is no suggestion that he is far right, a conspiracy theorist or a nutjob.
Volunteer Marek's tone has also been abrasive and dismissive in speaking about other editors and the Republican presidential nominee.
I asked Volunteer Marek to remove his comments on Clinton Cash,[29] which he rejected.[30]
TFD (talk) 23:20, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Volunteer Marek, referring to an established journalist and author as a nutjob right-wing conspiracy theorist is in my opinion defamatory or at least a violation of biography of living persons policy since it impugns the integrity or judgment of someone whose career is based on a reputation for integrity and judgment. It is also an attack on the publisher, because reputable publishers do not publish such works, which is why they are reputable and their reputation is a key element in their success. Ironically, your objection to Clinton Cash was that "BLP applies," in that case that we could not "add this junk" which you saw as prejudicial to living persons. (18:16, 14 August 2016) Your comments on Trump ("Man, this guy makes the life of a Wikipedia editor hard.") shows a personal preference against him, yet in the previous edit above, you accuse other editors of being so influenced by political bias that it affects their judgment. TFD (talk) 02:09, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Volunteer Marek
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Volunteer Marek
Sigh. So you can get dragged to AE now for criticizing a ... book. While other editors run around Wikipedia creating POVFORKs and game the DS system. Right. Here's links about the book (already provided in relevant discussion plus some more) Clinton Cash Crushed By Facts As Author Admits He Has No Evidence Of Clinton Crimes Clinton Cash: errors dog Bill and Hillary exposé – but is there any 'there' there?, [31]. According to the Guardian "the book is an unrestrained attack on the former president and first lady." Sources - though obviously not all - do call it a "conspiracy theory"
Anyway, why is this even being brought up to AE? Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:13, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
And I genuinely have no idea what is suppose to be wrong in this diff presented by The Four Deuces. I'm sorry, you lost me.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:19, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Dude, it's expressing an opinion about the quality a source. An opinion which is actually shared by other reliable sources. Stop being silly. Or WP:BOOMERANG for obvious WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:59, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Timothyjosephwood
I stalk watch most of these articles. This seems like a silly report mostly for expressing a dissenting opinion, although somewhat lacking in tact. VM has made numerous BOLD but beneficial edits on these and related pages. If we're coming to ArbCom, we should be doing so with more than hurt feelings for talk page posts. TimothyJosephWood 00:16, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by MrX
WP:ARBAPDS remedies are intended to address behavioral issues like edit warring, personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, harassment, disruptive point-making, and gaming the system. The diffs presented as violations of these remedies don't nearly justify arbitration enforcement. What I see here is legitimate criticism of sources and pushback on what is arguable a fruit salad of an article, the purpose of which may be to cast a living person in a negative light. While Marek's passion could stand to be dialed down a notch or two, nothing evident here, in the article talk page, or the article edit history, rises to the level of a sanctionable offense in my opinion.- MrX 14:40, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by My very best wishes
I think Marek was right on the essence of the issue. In particular, Peter Schweizer was described by Media Matters for America as someone who "has a disreputable history of reporting marked by errors and retractions, with numerous reporters excoriating him for facts that "do not check out," sources that "do not exist," and a basic failure to practice "Journalism 101." (see here). My very best wishes (talk) 18:29, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by SPECIFICO
The article in question is crap and it was created by experienced editors whose history shows they're smart enough to understand the SYNTH, OR, BLP slams, and failed Verification they put up. They were also well aware of ARBAP2 and BLP discretionary sanctions. What's infuriating is that Arbcom/Admins are looking the other way while preposterous POV-pushing is proliferating. Even the few Admins who venture a peek say "just a content dispute" or some other reason to turn their backs. This article should have been aborted as soon as it went up. Who really wants to waste time pretending this is normal content editing editors who should long ago have been TBANned from American Politics continue to game the system? We're nowhere near the election in WP-time and if the sanctions are not enforced 2016 is going to make past political dust-ups look like a picnic. Kudos to Marek for trying to do the right thing. Oh gee, he's peeved. We should all be peeved and worse. SPECIFICO talk 11:20, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Volunteer Marek
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I'm struggling to see what the point of this report is or what the sanctionable behavior is supposed to be. Suggest a rapid closure unless someone sees something I don't. --Laser brain (talk) 03:03, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
- As someone who had some concerns about VM in a previous AE request... I find this completely vacuous. Their comments are reasonable points about controversial content; nothing was disruptive, not even angry, really. Agree with Laser brain-- close with no action. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 05:00, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Makeandtoss
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Makeandtoss
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Sir Joseph (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 14:08, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Makeandtoss (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_3 :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 10:55 Sep 6 First Reversion
- 9:56 Sep 7 1RR from WB to Palestine
- 9:57 Sep 7 Continuing revisions
- 9:57 Sep 7 Again...
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- I am not sure, but I think user was blocked or TBANNED previously.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- I couldn't find the specific template, but user is aware of sanctions. There was a discussion on his page and Arb. Drmies mentioned it to him. User_talk:Makeandtoss/Archive_1#January_2016
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
This is about a site located in the West Bank. Since calling it State of Palestine is POV, I changed it to West Bank since that is technically where the location is. I then continued to expand the page finding live links, adding more refs, etc. User then came back with his NPOV edit and edit summary.
- It would be the same POV if I said Israel, which would not be allowed. I even made a suggestion of removing West Bank and just labeling it in the Jordan Valley, since a few sentences down it mentions the West Bank, but calling this part of the State of Palestine, and not even Palestine (region) is extreme POV.
- To Makeandtoss, you violated 1RR not necessarily 3RR. There were also around 10 edits in between your edit and your first reversion. As for the category, that is funny, considering that the article has a Tourism in the Sate of Palestine cat already.
- Tracy McClark is being a little disingenuous with the numbers and reverts. My initial edit wasn't a revert, I then modified it to make it more neutral, and that is not a revert, making two edits in a row is not counted especially since I was improving the neutrality and making small edits to the article. All one has to do is view history to see the truth.
- Nishidani, I added that cat only because there was a cat for the Palestine one. You need both to be NPOV. What Cliftonian suggested on his userpage was a cat for Tourism in the West Bank. It might get convoluted but it should work since anything else is POV.
- Tracy McClark is being a little disingenuous with the numbers and reverts. My initial edit wasn't a revert, I then modified it to make it more neutral, and that is not a revert, making two edits in a row is not counted especially since I was improving the neutrality and making small edits to the article. All one has to do is view history to see the truth.
- To Makeandtoss, you violated 1RR not necessarily 3RR. There were also around 10 edits in between your edit and your first reversion. As for the category, that is funny, considering that the article has a Tourism in the Sate of Palestine cat already.
- Since Cliftonian has published a modified version that is more neutral, I withdraw my complaint. I'm not here to have anyone sanctioned, so this can be closed since the article has a more tolerable and neutral wording.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Makeandtoss
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Makeandtoss
- I did not revert three times, I reverted once because there are no intermediate edits by anyone.
- State of Palestine is recognized by 136 (70.5%) (more than two thirds) of the 193 member states of the United Nations. Meanwhile, Israeli occupation of West Bank is not recognized by anyone, not even the USA/EU/UN. I fail to see how you can make that resemblance. I fail to see how you think its OK to this as a site in Israel but not as a site in the State of Palestine? Neutral you said? Interesting. --Makeandtoss (talk) 14:23, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Statement by TracyMcClark
How about turning the focus on the filer's 3 reverts within 24 hours?
Initial revert/content here
1st revert here
3rd revert here (added twice today)
Statement by Nishidani
Sir Joe, you have a right to challenge editors who prefer ‘State of Palestine’ for anything in the West Bank. But when you reverting them on this, while adding a cat for Tourism in Israel you are contradicting yourself, and reality. All Israelis know that the West Bank is not in Israel. Nishidani (talk) 17:23, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Result concerning Makeandtoss
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.