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Contents
RFC: Indefinitely blocked IP addresses
Hi, this RFC is meant to facilitate discussion as part of an ongoing cross-wiki trend of various discussions and discussion boards I've noticed recently opened concerning the issue of indefinitely blocked IP addresses. Specifically the purpose of RFC is twofold, namely:
- The unblocking of currently indefinitely blocked IP addresses at Special:BlockList.
- Deprecation of the
{{Indefblockedip}}
template and updating of several policy pages to prohibit future indefinite blocks, which are variously located at Wikipedia:Blocking policy#IP address blocks, Wikipedia:Blocking policy#Indefinite blocks and Wikipedia:Blocking IP addresses#Block lengths.
As I have explained elsewhere on other wikis, my reasons for doing so are thus:
- IP addresses should never be indefinitely blocked as they can change hands pretty quickly.
- In the event that any single IP address does need an indefinite block, the Meta Stewards have already undertaken the necessary measures to solve that issue.
Please add your comments to the discussion below. Thanks! TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 20:47, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Support 1 (unblock existing indefed IPs)
- Per OP. NE Ent 21:05, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- Partially, I think we should change from indefinite blocks to ~5 year blocks, all ip blocks that are currently indefinite should be changed to 4 years plus a random nubmer of days between 180 and 360, that way each ip gets released slowly and we aren't re flooded with a bunch of vandals on one day. CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:18, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Oppose 1 (leave indefed IPs blocked)
- Some IPs are open proxies that have been stable for a very long time. Others are blocks designed to counter specific vandals, or hotbeds of vandals. A blanket unblock is not helpful. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:06, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - they are indefinite, not infinite. Some are stable cases that simply should be shut down for a long time. No need to have to wait until the vandalism/abuse/whatever starts again from that address. It is easier to have a regular review of indefinite blocks than to have to block again and clean up the mess. --Dirk Beetstra T C 04:00, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose I oppose because I would be happy to require a log in for all purposes other than talk pages.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:31, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose. Just as one size doesn't fit all, there can be varying reasons for blocks. I'm fine with the idea that indeff blocks of IPs should be done cautiously, etc., but there can be circumstances when such blocks are helpful and appropriate. Review them, and unblock case-by-case on the merits, but not this proposal. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:28, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - most of these IPs were blocked for good reason (usually vandalism). As for the argument that IP addresses can change hands... If that occurs, the new owner of the IP can easily contact an admin, explain the situation and have the address unblocked. Deal with them on a case by case basis. Blueboar (talk) 19:52, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- I think part of your argument is a good point except no admin is going to unlock an IP just because they say its a new user and most users wouldn't bother or know what to do. They would just give up and Wikipedia would be out an editor. 138.162.8.59 (talk) 19:59, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - we should unblock them gradually, at least a year after the beginning of the block of each. Unblocking them all at once will cause too big a rise in vandalism and sockpuppetry; and keeping IPs blocked with an indef and unblocking them later, as opposed to reducing te block length, will prevent the vandal from knowing when (s)he can vandalize from there again. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 09:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose Chris Troutman (talk) 20:54, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose not a great deal to be gained by unblocking open proxies. Unblocking them at all is probably a bad idea, unblocking them all at once is a horrible idea. -- Bfigura (talk) 01:07, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - Absolutely awful idea. Many of these IP's will pick right back up where they left off, as the worst vandals we have. Leave matters as they are, per Blueboar. IP's can ask nicely to be unblocked if they change hands and don't want to register an account. Jusdafax 06:12, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose Bad idea. Little to no benefit to the encyclopedia and plenty of risk. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:02, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose: If we have a ceiling block limit, then it might deter a lot of vandals, but there'll still be some that come back. As per Dirk Beetstra, they can always be unblocked. Supernerd11 :D Firemind ^_^ Pokedex 00:17, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose. Reviewing them is helpful, mass unblocking them is not. Kaldari (talk) 01:46, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
Support 2 (stop creating new indefed IPs)
- Per OP. NE Ent 21:06, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- But we do need to take some time in going through all the current blocks. Mr.Z-man 21:33, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- Support, the longest block should be ~ the age of the encylopedia. When wikipedia started did you know what it was going to look like now? Do you know what it will look like in (12?) years? Indefinite blocks are unlikley to ever get reviewd and are too easy to put in place, making them very long forces a review every <very long> atleast.CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:20, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Oppose 2 (stop creating new indefed IPs)
- Opposing for essentially the same reason I'm opposing proposal 1. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:06, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- Not sure how one would either oppose 1 and support 2, or support 1 and oppose 2 - but since I oppose 1, this is a good one to keep and to explain to the rare cases where the IP does get reassigned and an editor needs to get through what they have cab do to appeal. --Dirk Beetstra T C 04:02, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Well, one is about removing current indef-IP blocks and the other is about preventing future indef-IP blocks. I think Mr.Z-man has it about right, though we still need to hammer out the details for implementation of the review process. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 07:02, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose Same reason as under Oppose 1NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:33, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose. Given what I said in opposition to 1. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:29, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose Chris Troutman (talk) 20:54, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose Why make things harder on editors and easier on vandals? Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:05, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose Per my opposition to 1. Come on, really? The majority of hardcore vandalism comes from IP's. Some of them will vandalize for years. Without the vital tool of indef blocking them, you create a situation where the cycle can repeat endlessly. This and the first proposal need to be rejected firmly as ideas that will eat up massive amounts of editor time with no benefit to the 'pedia. I reject the concept that we are discouraging new editors, because those who newly own an IP number can ask to have it unblocked or merely register an account. Jusdafax 20:25, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Discussion (indefed IPs)
Why do we need to have the RfC on this page? If my watchlist starts filling up, I shall unwatch. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:01, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- The Villiage Pump Policy would of been a far better location for an RFC than here, with a note left on technical to advise. This isn't really a technical RFC.Blethering Scot 22:14, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, I thought unblocking IPs was mainly a technical matter up for discussion. You can move the discussion to VPP as appropriate but please don't forget to update the links at Wikipedia talk:Blocking IP addresses, Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject on open proxies and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 22:27, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- Done, I've moved it from Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 123#Indefinitely blocked IP addresses to the policy section of the Village Pump. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 02:52, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Proposal 3 (indefed IPs)
Last October, there was an RFC on reviewing Indefinite IP Blocks, the consensus was that we should review them regularly to make sure they were still needed. However that review required the input of advanced permission holders, Other then some more talk about it, as far as I know, nothing ever happened. As a middle ground, recognizing that some portion of the indefinite blocks are still needed, I propose that all existing IP blocks be reduced to 1 year from the end of the RFC. Going forward, they may be reviewed by holders of appropriate permissions, and after review, if still justified, periodically extended up to a maximum of 2 years duration. New blocks would be limited to a maximum of 2 years. This would give us time to review them, while at the same time, any forgotten blocks would start to release 1 year from now. Monty845 03:25, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Note that that RFC applied specifically to rangeblocks. There are only 200 indef rangeblocks, there are 20,000 indef blocks of single IPs. Reviewing all of them annually isn't really practical. 90% are proxy blocks. ProcseeBot only blocks proxies it finds for 60 days to 1 year (what criteria it uses to determine block length isn't really clear). So it would probably be safe to downgrade all of the current proxy blocks to 1 year. Mr.Z-man 04:33, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Just to note, that I think that having them automatically become unblocked and having vandals coming through them isn't really practical either. Actually, it might be what certain 'contributors' are waiting for (well, I know they are). --Dirk Beetstra T C 05:07, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- I think the answer to this RFC really boils down to one question, do we want to encourage editing to Wikipedia or do we not? If the answer to that question is yes, then we should review these blocks and eliminate some of them. Probably a lot of them because although there is a limited number of range blocks, some of them include a huge number of IP's and potential editors. Will some be vandals, almost certainly, but it will also advocate more helpful editors as well contributing to the site. Some are valid certainly but probably less than half are still valid. I also agree that an annual review isn't practical but some of these have been blocked for years and in that time the use of proxy servers as a security measure has been adopted as an industry best practice, a few years ago it would have earned you an indef. We also need to look at the validity to ProcseeBot IMO. I never liked the argument of blocking only because its a proxy, most of which have never even done one edit which means blocking it is both pointless and a waste of resources akin to creating a bot to move a stub tag. The use of ProcseeBot is an afront to AGF. So if you want to continue to foster the culture of exclusionism and elitism that has been increasingly visible in Wikipedia, then continue to leave all these blocked and perhaps even pursue forcing people to create an account like Facebook. If you want to encourage people to participate and collaborate to build an encyclopedia then we need to unblock as many as possible to encourage that. 138.162.8.59 (talk) 15:09, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- "the use of proxy servers as a security measure has been adopted as an industry best practice" - There is a difference between a proxy and an open proxy. Only open proxies, which can be used by anyone, are blocked. There is nothing wrong with blocking open proxies pre-emptively, as they are used almost exclusively for abuse. There are few legitimate reasons to be editing through an open proxy, and these are generally dealt with through IP block exemptions. Mr.Z-man 18:17, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Your right there is a difference, but regardless of whether they are open or not, if they have never edited, there is no point in blocking thousands of them for no reason other than speculation that someone, someday might be a vandal. Certainly we could setup a filter or something so that these can be monitored more easily, even have a bot notify someone or a WikiProject, but just blocking tens of thousands of edits "preemptively" is frankly not a good practice and worse at least a borderline violation of Wikipedia policy. Its still a lack of AGF. Not that folks care about either policy or AGF these days. If they aren't vandals then the action isn't being done to protect the project. Its just laziness on the part of admins that don't want to do their work and would rather block everyone so no one can edit and eliminate the potential that a vandal might masquerade as an editor. The bottomline is its being done to prevent editing...good and bad and really not even then because most have never edited. You say there are few valid reasons....but you admit the reasons are there. Let me ask this even though I suspect no one even bothered to look, partially because I honestly don't know and partially as an extension of good faith to bot and its operator, how many have actually been used to vandalize and which ones were used to do meaningful edits? I looked at a few and the only one of the ones I found that had even done an exit was a vandal, several didn't add much value I grant you (minor typos and such) but it still helps incrementally. 138.162.8.59 (talk) 18:51, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- An open proxy does not represent a "person" like a residential IP. They are typically servers that no one would normally be editing from. Anyone editing via an open proxy is connecting to it from somewhere else, which means they can edit without it. AGF is not a suicide pact. We know from years of experience that open proxies are heavily abused by vandals, spammers, and sockpuppeteers, with very few good edits (because, again, there are very few reasons for legitimate users to use an open proxy). And we have procedures in place to help the few legitimate users. Note that just because you see no edits on the IP's contributions page doesn't mean they're not being used. That just means they aren't being used by unregistered users. The biggest problem with open proxies is not casual vandalism, but spammers and sockpuppeteers using open proxies with registered accounts. The time and effort spent dealing with a persistent abuser is much higher than with a regular vandal. Mr.Z-man 21:32, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Ok, case in point, I tried to reply again and now I am getting a messagem because I am editing as an IP, stating A"n automated filter has identified this edit as potentially unconstructive, and it has been disallowed. If this edit is constructive, please report this error." There is absolutely nothing in the statement that was negative or a swear word so why should it be blocked? 138.162.8.59 (talk) 21:59, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
-
- Oh I see it failed for common vandal phrases. Way to go Wikipedia, way to go!. I submitted it to Wikipedia:Edit filter/False positives/Reports but really, how many IP's are going to do that and how many are going to make sense of that crappy template? 138.162.8.59 (talk) 22:07, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
-
- Ok, case in point, I tried to reply again and now I am getting a messagem because I am editing as an IP, stating A"n automated filter has identified this edit as potentially unconstructive, and it has been disallowed. If this edit is constructive, please report this error." There is absolutely nothing in the statement that was negative or a swear word so why should it be blocked? 138.162.8.59 (talk) 21:59, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- An open proxy does not represent a "person" like a residential IP. They are typically servers that no one would normally be editing from. Anyone editing via an open proxy is connecting to it from somewhere else, which means they can edit without it. AGF is not a suicide pact. We know from years of experience that open proxies are heavily abused by vandals, spammers, and sockpuppeteers, with very few good edits (because, again, there are very few reasons for legitimate users to use an open proxy). And we have procedures in place to help the few legitimate users. Note that just because you see no edits on the IP's contributions page doesn't mean they're not being used. That just means they aren't being used by unregistered users. The biggest problem with open proxies is not casual vandalism, but spammers and sockpuppeteers using open proxies with registered accounts. The time and effort spent dealing with a persistent abuser is much higher than with a regular vandal. Mr.Z-man 21:32, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Your right there is a difference, but regardless of whether they are open or not, if they have never edited, there is no point in blocking thousands of them for no reason other than speculation that someone, someday might be a vandal. Certainly we could setup a filter or something so that these can be monitored more easily, even have a bot notify someone or a WikiProject, but just blocking tens of thousands of edits "preemptively" is frankly not a good practice and worse at least a borderline violation of Wikipedia policy. Its still a lack of AGF. Not that folks care about either policy or AGF these days. If they aren't vandals then the action isn't being done to protect the project. Its just laziness on the part of admins that don't want to do their work and would rather block everyone so no one can edit and eliminate the potential that a vandal might masquerade as an editor. The bottomline is its being done to prevent editing...good and bad and really not even then because most have never edited. You say there are few valid reasons....but you admit the reasons are there. Let me ask this even though I suspect no one even bothered to look, partially because I honestly don't know and partially as an extension of good faith to bot and its operator, how many have actually been used to vandalize and which ones were used to do meaningful edits? I looked at a few and the only one of the ones I found that had even done an exit was a vandal, several didn't add much value I grant you (minor typos and such) but it still helps incrementally. 138.162.8.59 (talk) 18:51, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- "the use of proxy servers as a security measure has been adopted as an industry best practice" - There is a difference between a proxy and an open proxy. Only open proxies, which can be used by anyone, are blocked. There is nothing wrong with blocking open proxies pre-emptively, as they are used almost exclusively for abuse. There are few legitimate reasons to be editing through an open proxy, and these are generally dealt with through IP block exemptions. Mr.Z-man 18:17, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- I think the answer to this RFC really boils down to one question, do we want to encourage editing to Wikipedia or do we not? If the answer to that question is yes, then we should review these blocks and eliminate some of them. Probably a lot of them because although there is a limited number of range blocks, some of them include a huge number of IP's and potential editors. Will some be vandals, almost certainly, but it will also advocate more helpful editors as well contributing to the site. Some are valid certainly but probably less than half are still valid. I also agree that an annual review isn't practical but some of these have been blocked for years and in that time the use of proxy servers as a security measure has been adopted as an industry best practice, a few years ago it would have earned you an indef. We also need to look at the validity to ProcseeBot IMO. I never liked the argument of blocking only because its a proxy, most of which have never even done one edit which means blocking it is both pointless and a waste of resources akin to creating a bot to move a stub tag. The use of ProcseeBot is an afront to AGF. So if you want to continue to foster the culture of exclusionism and elitism that has been increasingly visible in Wikipedia, then continue to leave all these blocked and perhaps even pursue forcing people to create an account like Facebook. If you want to encourage people to participate and collaborate to build an encyclopedia then we need to unblock as many as possible to encourage that. 138.162.8.59 (talk) 15:09, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Based on what you tried to post, I suspect the phrase that tripped the filter was "Wikipedia sucks". I don't think automated filters can be smart enough to understand you were quoting a hypothetical person's reaction. I can't think of a way to improve on the filter without letting in a lot of vandalism. As for the message, I suspect it's deliberately vague so vandals don't get hints on how to avoid the filter. See what the guys who work on the edit filters have to say, anyway; they will know better than me. – PartTimeGnome (talk | contribs) 22:24, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Your probably right, in addition to the fact that I am an IP that is. Which only validates my point that Wikipedia, regardless of their bantor that they want to allow it, really doesn't want IP's to edit. I recently tried to add a citation and it required me to put in a captcha 3 times. I finally gave up and just posted the info without the citation...its still there....no citation. Not because I didn't have it or want to put it in, because Wikipedia's filtering and mecahnisms prevented me from doing it. 138.162.8.59 (talk) 22:31, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- In general, I think I would support laxing restrictions to encourage chances for possibly constructive editors to join us as more important than holding back vandalism like "you suck", especially considering how high the vetting process is for AbuseFilter managers. Besides we got a lot of RC patrollers and Twinkle users and random bots running amok doing that anyway, and it's not like they won't
appreciate more chances for adminshipworry about rolling back Vandalism™ to our website with less AF restrictions. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 00:52, 4 February 2014 (UTC)- I would point out that many of these features exist not to pointlessly harass anonymous editors, but so that we can still allow anonymous editing. Imagine if the #6 website in the world allowed anyone to edit any page, but made almost no attempt at preventing spam? We basically have 3 options:
- Require registration to edit. This would drastically reduce the amount of spam and vandalism, but would also hinder positive contributions.
- Use fairly standard anti-spam measures like captchas and link blacklists. This can slow down positive contributions, but still allows them.
- Have no filtering. This would make contribution easiest, but comes at the cost of wasting immense amounts of volunteer time reverting spam.
- The abuse filter was developed for similar reasons (pagemove vandalism, long-term abusers). We could have simply locked pages down, raised the autoconfirmed threshold, restricted pagemoves to a smaller subset of users, or continued wasting more volunteer time reverting. But a more targeted approach, despite being considerably more effort to develop, was decided to be more preferable. There may be some filters that are overly broad, but when we're discussing these systems, we have to look at them in the proper context. Mr.Z-man 17:04, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
- The autoconfirmed threshold is almost like a filter all on its own, and it has existed long before the AF extension did. That's interesting, I'll research the history behind the user group rights some more. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 21:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
- I would point out that many of these features exist not to pointlessly harass anonymous editors, but so that we can still allow anonymous editing. Imagine if the #6 website in the world allowed anyone to edit any page, but made almost no attempt at preventing spam? We basically have 3 options:
- In general, I think I would support laxing restrictions to encourage chances for possibly constructive editors to join us as more important than holding back vandalism like "you suck", especially considering how high the vetting process is for AbuseFilter managers. Besides we got a lot of RC patrollers and Twinkle users and random bots running amok doing that anyway, and it's not like they won't
- Your probably right, in addition to the fact that I am an IP that is. Which only validates my point that Wikipedia, regardless of their bantor that they want to allow it, really doesn't want IP's to edit. I recently tried to add a citation and it required me to put in a captcha 3 times. I finally gave up and just posted the info without the citation...its still there....no citation. Not because I didn't have it or want to put it in, because Wikipedia's filtering and mecahnisms prevented me from doing it. 138.162.8.59 (talk) 22:31, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't know why but I must have missed the previous discussion when I tried to search through the Village Pump archives for them; that's probably the thread that started this crosswiki trend of removing indefinite IP blocks anyway, as with most cases on the English Wikipedia. Well anyway now that the RFC is underway I don't think there should be anything to stop the process of consensus formation, so I feel I can't close it now. I've found lots of interesting points and arguments raised in this thread, but curiously enough I haven't seen anyone try to rebut my second point on letting Meta Stewards handle abusive open proxies with indefinite blocks, and I'd like to see someone at least attempt to counter that argument, besides the vapid "I don't like Meta" argument. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 00:46, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
- One word: manpower. There are currently only 36 stewards, and thus there can be periods where none of them are active online. Meanwhile, we have 1,417 administrators, and there are usually several of them active at all hours of the day. If there is a severe attack from several open proxies, do you really want to wait hours for the nearest steward to arrive on the scene? The English Wikipedia is the most visible and visited wiki, let alone one of the top visited web sites, and thus always a larger target for vandals than all the other wikis combined. Zzyzx11 (talk) 14:33, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
- I do not want to encourage more new editors, especially among the general populace. I would support blocking all IPs from editing since they are not people. Chris Troutman (talk) 20:54, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
- Re: ProcseeBot (@User:Mr.Z-man), it's 60 for the first discovery, 1 year for each subsequent (to prevent spillover on DHCP pools). The main reason for indefinitely blocking an IP or IP range would be school vandalism—not proxies (see also: transclusions of
{{repeatvandal}}
). As far as anyone complaining about "the validity" of the bot, you're more than welcome to re-experience the joys of trying to hunt down, block, and clean up rapid-fire, ip-and-account-hopping vandalism across multiple articles, but I wouldn't recommend it. I was there for that, and it was the reason the bot was made and that the pragmatic decision to proactively—not simply reactively—block open proxies came about. --slakr\ talk / 18:44, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
ro.wikipedia on things across Dnestr river
Dear friends,
I find it's just a shame the language used by ro.wikipedia as soon as it comes to issues across river Dnestr.
We all know there is an unresolved conflict. And those who are not biased also know who, by slogans calling for ruthless expulsion of all Russian and Ukrainian taxpayers, started the tensions leading to the break-off.
I deem it is NOT wikipedia's role to blame and slander the citizens of Transnistria. They have several parties; they elect their president and parliaments. The constant use of "terrorist", "separatist", "illegal" is unworthy of Wikipedia and unfit to its style. So my question is: Is there anyone in position to suppress those outbursts of chauvinism - be it in Wikimedia, be it in ro.wikipedia?
Apart of being full of bias, the articles are stubs and are full of spelling mistakes - cf. e.g. Grigoriopol city and rayon, and compare it to the Ukrainian version. Thank you for reply to: Lillian Happel on facebook.com (as you warn against publishing one's email address)
P.S. I did follow those revengeful and fruitless discussions prior to the closure of the Moldovan Wikipedia. In fact, those wanting to express themselves in Cyrillic script just publish in ru. or uk.Wikipedias. The ideal solution would be like the Serbian Wikipedia - a two-scripts Wikipedia, but I know it is politically not feasible. 131.188.2.11 (talk) 16:13, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
- Er, we can't help with other language wikis here. You might try [1]. KonveyorBelt 16:30, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
Fair use video clips
Hello,
Can we use, in Wikipedia articles, short video clips of non-free content as "fair use"? For instance, to show the specific ambiance and graphic style of a film like Sin City, or to show on Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn how the line is delivered (voice tone, facial expression, ambiance, etc.). I think it would significantly add to an article about a movie line, to show the line itself being delivered, no?
The same kind of thing is done with numerous images or short audio clips (e.g. a screenshot to show the ambiance of Sin City, an extract of "I Have a Dream" to show King's voice and intonation, an extract of "We Are the World" to show its musical structure), and they generally add really useful information to the article; but I've never seen it done with a video clip, is there a specificity about video that prevents to do the same? Was there a consensus to try to avoid non-free videos on Wikipedia? Wouldn't that be useful? Or is it simply that nobody did it yet, but we can?
I haven't found a precise recommandation about that; Wikipedia:Non-free content #Unacceptable use simply says that "a short video excerpt from a contemporary film, without sourced commentary in the accompanying text" would be unacceptable use.
Thanks for your help! - Cos-fr (talk) 11:46, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
- For examples, there are File:Janeway's exit in Tuvix (reduced).theora.ogv for GA Tuvix, and File:Dredd (film) - Visual Effects.ogv for FA Dredd. If this helps. Chris857 (talk) 16:25, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
- Video clips can be used as non-free media, but they should be as short as possible (we don't have exact advice but I would recommend no more than 30s, and trimmed to the most important portion), need to be low resolution, and encoded properly. But the use needs to be something where either the combination of video or audio, and/or the actual motion/direction is the subject of discussion of the article (and nearly always going to need sourcing to explain its importance); if the same can be done by stills, it is better to use that. Take for example Sin City - I know the movie is noted for capturing the harsh black and white world with very limit color use, but this can be done with a screen shot showing this palette; the motions aren't as critical in terms of discussion (but this is off the top of my head). In contrast, the Dredd clip is there to show the use of the slow motion effects of the drug-induced state which was discussed critically in the article.
- I'd strongly recommend avoid using this to show how movie lines were delivered, unless, like in the case of your "Frankly..." example, the line itself is notable, and been discussed a lot of times in context, so a video might be appropriate. But again, before using a video clip, make sure that it is the combination of video and audio that makes it notable or if we can get away with just audio, a still, or the like. --MASEM (t) 17:08, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with Masem's take on this... while short clips are allowed, we don't want articles to include gratuitous clips... just because we can. The clip should clearly illustrate something said in the article... and if there is a better method of illustration (a still, an audio file, etc), use that other method instead. Blueboar (talk) 17:56, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
- I'd say 30 seconds is on the long side, and to be safe you should keep it very short. -- Fuzheado | Talk 23:18, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
-
- Thanks a lot for all this advice, and the existing examples (which led me to Category:Non-free video samples). Yes, I meant short clips, strictly reduced to the most relevant part, and when I mentioned movie lines I only thought about those notable enough to be heavily discussed in a dedicated article or section.
- I understand the general guideline like this: don't put gratuitous clips, i.e. use them when needed to illustrate something discussed in the article, and only use video when any "less rich" medium (still image, audio clip) wouldn't suffice to illustrate.
- I suppose that this "no gratuitous clips" limitation was more decided by the Wikipedia community (because we're writing an encyclopedia here, or other reason decided in the project; and also to minimize legal exposure hazards), than it is really required by fair use strictly speaking? I mean, for instance, if Wikipedia wanted to include for each film a short video excerpt to show what it looks like, that would be something legally feasible as fair use, right? (Disclaimer, just in case: no, I don't plan to do it. I'm just asking this theoretically, to better understand the rules regarding non-free content here.)
- Cos-fr (talk) 03:01, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
- From a true fair use standpoint, short video clips should not be any legal problem. Our issue with video clips from non-free sources is two fold:
- Accessibility - we're still working on getting it easy for video clips to be played. One should assume that not everyone yet can play them or have the bandwidth for them.
- Our free content mission, or more specifically the Foundation's Resolution that we minimize non-free use, means we should consider the least amount of non-free media that does the job. Take the Sin City case - while a video clip and a still will show off the color palette equally well, the extra content in the video part will likely be excessive. As such, the still is generally preferred over the clip.
- We're otherwise do allow clips but we just ask to consider if there are better alternatives before resorting to them. That's why you see so few of them around. --MASEM (t) 04:17, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
- From a true fair use standpoint, short video clips should not be any legal problem. Our issue with video clips from non-free sources is two fold:
- I agree with Masem's take on this... while short clips are allowed, we don't want articles to include gratuitous clips... just because we can. The clip should clearly illustrate something said in the article... and if there is a better method of illustration (a still, an audio file, etc), use that other method instead. Blueboar (talk) 17:56, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
Primary usage for works with derivatives
Suppose you have a work, Foo, that has spawned one or more derivative works. Assume that the title "Foo" is unique enough that all significant occurrences refer to the original work or derivatives thereof. What belongs at the article "Foo": the original work, the disambiguation page, or perhaps the most famous derivative work?
A related question occurs when there are a cluster of similarly-titled works, e.g. the original work was entitled "The Adventures of Foo: A Novel", but is more commonly known as just "Foo". Other complications include when the work is part of a series or franchise with the same title, or when the work's title is also the name of a character or entity within the work.
Here are some examples I have collected. Note that in most of these examples the original work is written and the derivative work is a film, but this need not always be the case.
Examples where "Foo" contains the original work:
- Frankenstein
- The Hundred and One Dalmatians, although "101 Dalmatians" redirects to a disambiguation page
- The Hunger Games
- Oliver Twist
- Pride and Prejudice
Examples where "Foo" contains a disambiguation page:
- Little Shop of Horrors - original work's title was The Little Shop of Horrors
- One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
- Planet of the Apes
- The Wizard of Oz - original work's title was The Wonderful Wizard of Oz
Examples where "Foo" contains a derivative work instead of the original:
- Fast Times at Ridgemont High - no article exists for the original book
- Forrest Gump
- The Graduate
- Ordinary People
Other interesting examples:
- 2001: A Space Odyssey - article is about the concept (interestingly enough, the film and novel were produced in parallel so there is no single original work)
- Mary Poppins - article is about the eponymous character, not any particular work
- King Kong - article is about the monster, not the original film
- Shrek - article is about the film, not the original novel Shrek!, with a separate article about the franchise
- Star Trek - article is about the franchise, not the original series
- Star Wars - article is about the franchise, not the original film (which has since been retitled)
- Titanic - redirects to "RMS Titanic", the passenger liner about which several works with the title Titanic have been produced
This is somewhat covered by WP:PRIMARYUSAGE but I think a more specific guideline might be helpful, as this question seem to come up pretty regularly. The general policy is often difficult to apply because users have differing opinions about which work is the most well-known or significant and this often changes over time, for example a book that was once extremely popular might be now almost unknown, while a film adaptation may have become hugely popular. Thoughts? Augurar (talk) 02:18, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- Every decision here can be justified, except one (the omission of an article for the book Fast Times at Ridgemont High. ) not only justified, they actually match what I would think of first most of the time, except that for some of the ones with a disam p. the film is by far the most notable to me, tho I know the book also., Obviously, people's individual experience will differ, and cultural knowledge and fashion will change, so there is no way of doing it right. , When popularity changes, so can our handling of the title.
- But if I had to suggest a guide, I would say, that normally the original work is the primary title, unless the derivative is very much better known. For works about events (eg. Titanic, the RW event or whatever is always the primary) However, for popular media franchises in many forms, the franchise should be used when rational, because it can list all the manifestations. DGG ( talk ) 07:19, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- There are other options that are often overlooked in discussions over WP:PRIMARYUSAGE... one option is to Merge articles. Nothing says we have to have separate articles on each version of a work. There is always the option to combine our coverage into one single article that discusses all of the versions (the original work and its various derivatives)... each in its own section. Another, similar, option (good when a merged article would be overly long) is to create an "overview" article... this "overview" article would summarize the key information about all the various versions of the work (and essentially do double duty as a dab, taking the non-disambiguated title)... and would point readers to (disambiguated) articles on each of the various versions. Blueboar (talk) 15:19, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- I think that DGG and Blueboar both have excellent advice.
- I only add that my first impulse on seeing this was to see whether you're involved in WP:ANIME, because that's the usual source of disputes (e.g., a few editors insisting that "original" works must be primary, even when they are barely known and the derivative is wildly popular [so that's what our readers expect to see] and extensively discussed by reliable sources). So while this advice is excellent, and while I agree with it, in practice it is unfortunately possible that you will not be able to apply it quite as widely as it deserves. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:44, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- There are other options that are often overlooked in discussions over WP:PRIMARYUSAGE... one option is to Merge articles. Nothing says we have to have separate articles on each version of a work. There is always the option to combine our coverage into one single article that discusses all of the versions (the original work and its various derivatives)... each in its own section. Another, similar, option (good when a merged article would be overly long) is to create an "overview" article... this "overview" article would summarize the key information about all the various versions of the work (and essentially do double duty as a dab, taking the non-disambiguated title)... and would point readers to (disambiguated) articles on each of the various versions. Blueboar (talk) 15:19, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
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- I also agree in general with what Blueboar and DGG said above. One caveat: it sometimes happens that a relatively obscure real event becomes the basis of a well-known literary work. Usually the natural article titles will differ in such a case, but if they do not, the literary work might be the primary topic if the actual event is known largely through the work. DES (talk) 01:52, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
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Why are some articles removed?
What is the policy on removing articles that seem significant?
Specifically, why was an article on "Dr. Geza De Kaplany" removed, while the article on "Richard Speck" was not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.237.77 (talk) 18:51, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- I see that Geza de Kaplany was speedy deleted four years ago as an "attack page" or "negative unsourced BLP", but this appears to have been incorrect to me. There are multiple references included in the last article version that was deleted (including a whole book about this convicted murderer), just no inline citations. Looks like a good WP:DRV candidate to me. postdlf (talk) 19:05, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
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- There are not "multiple references", there is actually only one cited source, an encycloedia referenced at the end and there are no details or page numbers and so it is impossible to say what, if any, of the negative material came from it. It's a crime bio, so it is all negative. However, if someone wants to write a new article, properly referenced there there's no problem with that, and no reason an admin wouldn't e-mail them the contents of the deleted article to assist them. Review the WP:BLP policy (unless you've got cited sources saying he's dead) and go ahead. Nothing to discuss on DRV.--Scott Mac 21:09, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- You must've also missed the sentence in the article beginning "As recounted by San Francisco Chronicle reporter Carolyn Anspacher in her 1965 book, The Trial of Dr. De Kaplany..." And why is it "impossible to say what, if any" came from the cited Encyclopedia of American Crime? Presumably one would consult the printed work and look for an entry on De Kaplany in the TOC or index, really no harder than if a page number was given. Whether it would have survived AFD at the time may be another question, but this was an inappropriate speedy deletion. Now in 2014 we also have numerous Google books hits clearly about this murder case, with visible previews that verify many of the details even if we ignore the two print references for some reason in the deleted article history. postdlf (talk) 01:01, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- For negative BLPs, I think it's best we err on the side of deletion rather than keeping, in the best interests of the article's subject. The deletion at least has not caused further harm to the encyclopedia, but the article is, if what you say is true, a valid candidate for reexamination at deletion review. In which case it would probably need to be restored and userfied with NOINDEX so the rest of us non-admins can examine it. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 11:22, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- There is no need for this to go to deletion review. If someone is wanting to work on it, and ensure that all negative claims are precisely referenced, I'm willing to give them the material right now so that they can do that.--Scott Mac 14:03, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- Postdlf, you are missing the point. No one is commenting on whether the subject deserves an article - if there are sources out there then there can be an article. What there cannot be is negative information on a living person that isn't properly referenced. That's why this was speedied - and quite properly so. But there's no objection to a recreation, providing it meets the highest standards of BLP. And no, we don't undelete BLP violating material, even with a NOINDEX.--Scott Mac 15:40, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- The point is it wasn't unsourced. You didn't even notice one of the references mentioned in the article (a whole book just about the criminal trial) apparently because it was given in the body of the article, and you concededly did not consult the one you did notice that was under a "references" header because you thought it too difficult to look up (in a print encyclopedia, no less, which should have a fairly straightforward organization). The general fact of the subject's murder conviction is easily verifiable from the references given, and if individual details about the crimes proved too difficult to readily verify then those details could have been removed pending further research. It's unfortunate that this article, which is about an apparently notable subject and was actually pretty well written, was deleted without discussion four years ago and this was only now brought to light. WP:CSD#G10 is limited to negative articles that are "unsourced". This wasn't unsourced when it was deleted. As far as what BLP requires, as is consistent with policy at WP:PRESERVE, WP:BLPDEL says "Biographical material about a living individual that is not compliant with this policy should be improved and rectified; if this is not possible, then it should be removed." (emphasis added). And that's even just talking about removing bits of content from an article, not speedy deleting the whole thing. To the extent that the lack of inline citations was not BLP-compliant, this is and was easily fixable with the references given.
What's the best Wikiproject to notify to get interested editors at work on this? I'll restore it for their improvement once someone voices interest. postdlf (talk) 17:01, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- No you will not restore it, unless you want desysopped for wheel warring. There is no way in hell this is referenced adequately for a negative BLP. I'm not disputing it could be fixed, but we remove such material until it is fixed. We don't rely on eventualism for negative BLPs. I will userfy the article (blanked) and someone can rebuild it with all negative material properly referenced. I will do that as soon as someone indicates a willingness to do this. Until then it remains deleted.--Scott Mac 20:54, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
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- Scott, if an admin restores the article now they would not be wheel warring. Wheel warring is when an administrator's action is reversed by another admin, but rather than discussing the disagreement, administrator tools are then used in a combative fashion to undo or redo the action. It would only be wheel warring if an admin re-deleted it after it was restored. GB fan 00:02, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- Not with BLP. If content is removed by someone citing BLP concerns, you may not restore it without a consensus that it is safe to do so. Thus with a BLP deletion, you either need the deleting admin to agree or a DRV.--Scott Mac 10:25, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- Scott, if an admin restores the article now they would not be wheel warring. Wheel warring is when an administrator's action is reversed by another admin, but rather than discussing the disagreement, administrator tools are then used in a combative fashion to undo or redo the action. It would only be wheel warring if an admin re-deleted it after it was restored. GB fan 00:02, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
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- I kindly suggest you re-read what I wrote again, and think about how your comment could improved to be more responsive to the whole of what I said, more substantive, and more constructive. Cheers, postdlf (talk) 21:46, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- I generally deny such passive aggressive requests, can't see a reason to vary that here.--Scott Mac 22:56, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- Having looked at it just now, it's pretty gruesome so you'd want sources. The article would make no sense if the most gruesome bit was removed as that is what it is (supposedly) notable for, so as far as being on wiki and publicly accessible, it is easiest to do from scratch, however there are several ways of sending the written material to someone to work on in the meantime. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:10, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- I generally deny such passive aggressive requests, can't see a reason to vary that here.--Scott Mac 22:56, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
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- No you will not restore it, unless you want desysopped for wheel warring. There is no way in hell this is referenced adequately for a negative BLP. I'm not disputing it could be fixed, but we remove such material until it is fixed. We don't rely on eventualism for negative BLPs. I will userfy the article (blanked) and someone can rebuild it with all negative material properly referenced. I will do that as soon as someone indicates a willingness to do this. Until then it remains deleted.--Scott Mac 20:54, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- The point is it wasn't unsourced. You didn't even notice one of the references mentioned in the article (a whole book just about the criminal trial) apparently because it was given in the body of the article, and you concededly did not consult the one you did notice that was under a "references" header because you thought it too difficult to look up (in a print encyclopedia, no less, which should have a fairly straightforward organization). The general fact of the subject's murder conviction is easily verifiable from the references given, and if individual details about the crimes proved too difficult to readily verify then those details could have been removed pending further research. It's unfortunate that this article, which is about an apparently notable subject and was actually pretty well written, was deleted without discussion four years ago and this was only now brought to light. WP:CSD#G10 is limited to negative articles that are "unsourced". This wasn't unsourced when it was deleted. As far as what BLP requires, as is consistent with policy at WP:PRESERVE, WP:BLPDEL says "Biographical material about a living individual that is not compliant with this policy should be improved and rectified; if this is not possible, then it should be removed." (emphasis added). And that's even just talking about removing bits of content from an article, not speedy deleting the whole thing. To the extent that the lack of inline citations was not BLP-compliant, this is and was easily fixable with the references given.
- For negative BLPs, I think it's best we err on the side of deletion rather than keeping, in the best interests of the article's subject. The deletion at least has not caused further harm to the encyclopedia, but the article is, if what you say is true, a valid candidate for reexamination at deletion review. In which case it would probably need to be restored and userfied with NOINDEX so the rest of us non-admins can examine it. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 11:22, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- You must've also missed the sentence in the article beginning "As recounted by San Francisco Chronicle reporter Carolyn Anspacher in her 1965 book, The Trial of Dr. De Kaplany..." And why is it "impossible to say what, if any" came from the cited Encyclopedia of American Crime? Presumably one would consult the printed work and look for an entry on De Kaplany in the TOC or index, really no harder than if a page number was given. Whether it would have survived AFD at the time may be another question, but this was an inappropriate speedy deletion. Now in 2014 we also have numerous Google books hits clearly about this murder case, with visible previews that verify many of the details even if we ignore the two print references for some reason in the deleted article history. postdlf (talk) 01:01, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- There are not "multiple references", there is actually only one cited source, an encycloedia referenced at the end and there are no details or page numbers and so it is impossible to say what, if any, of the negative material came from it. It's a crime bio, so it is all negative. However, if someone wants to write a new article, properly referenced there there's no problem with that, and no reason an admin wouldn't e-mail them the contents of the deleted article to assist them. Review the WP:BLP policy (unless you've got cited sources saying he's dead) and go ahead. Nothing to discuss on DRV.--Scott Mac 21:09, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
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- PS: Yes, just looking now, I can see the book on google though not sure how extensive or limited the preview is...so let's frame this positively....we'll be most happy to make available the deleted page one way or the other once someone says they want to work on it and inline/rework the text. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:14, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
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- THanks for reviewing. Yes, I've no problem with that. Not disputing an article can be written, and not trying to deny anyone access to the deleted content to create it. --Scott Mac 23:44, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
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- PS: Yes, just looking now, I can see the book on google though not sure how extensive or limited the preview is...so let's frame this positively....we'll be most happy to make available the deleted page one way or the other once someone says they want to work on it and inline/rework the text. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:14, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
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Sooo......ummmmm, anyone wanna work on the article then? If not now, there is a category of admins who will explore ways to make deleted content appropriately available. Cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:13, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Referencing for lists of internal links
We seem to have a slight disagreement on this subject at Talk:Sports in Alaska. I recently converted what was an extremely poorly constructed article into a more comprehensive list consisting solely of internal links. As the individual articles linked to would have the actual content on this subject I deliberately removed the few refs that were attached. As a result another user tagged it as unreferenced and we've been playing "dueling policy links" since then. So what would be great would be if more users comment on the situation so that we know what, if anything, needs to be done to the article. Beeblebrox (talk) 08:20, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Policy question about article content
Can somebody help me with a phrase which is embodied within Wikipedia?
I have heard that it is the goal of wikipedia that articles should be able to reach the general public.
Does anyone know one place where this policy is stated online? Thanks! --HowiAuckland (talk) 19:25, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- Are you looking for WP:MTAA? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:51, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- I would ask what you mean by "reach the general public". Do you mean be written in a manner that can be understood by the general public or are you asking about the distribution of content to the general public? Wikipedia is free, but you do have to have some sort of internet access to use it, although there was the Wikipedia CD Selection some years back as well that was intended for use in schools. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)