Contents |
WP:NOR should stay on topic
The following is mostly from WP:TOPIC:
- The most readable articles [or policies] contain no irrelevant (nor only loosely relevant) information. While writing an article [or policy], you might find yourself digressing into a side subject. If you find yourself wandering off-topic, consider placing the additional information into a different article, where it will fit more closely with the topic. If you provide a link to the other article, readers who are interested in the side topic have the option of digging into it, but readers who are not interested will not be distracted by it. Due to the way in which Wikipedia has grown, many articles contain such redundant texts. Please be bold in deleting them.
75.47.156.35 (talk) 13:57, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
- Could you be a bit more specific about which portions of this policy you feel are off topic? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:14, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
- Not wishing to speak for the IP, but we did discuss this not long ago, and people seemed to agree that (if this page is to remain separate from V) then the detailed section about sources is off-topic, and we should confine ourselves here to saying what is and what isn't original research. That's largely the same point I'm making in the thread above this.--Kotniski (talk) 14:53, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
-
- One example is the section Primary, secondary and tertiary sources. An already existing sentence in the previous section sufficiently and appropriately states the relevant NOR concept, “Drawing conclusions not evident in the reference is original research regardless of the type of source.” The questionable section should be moved to another page and there should be a link to it. 75.47.156.35 (talk) 18:02, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
At this point, it will probably be instructive to look at the history of the PSTS section, and see how it developed to be the way it did. A few key dates:
- Starting in Feb 2004 the entirety of the discussion of source types in the NOR policy consisted of one line: "Wikipedia is not a primary source". (added with this edit) This remained stable in the policy for just over a year. This idea (that Wikipedia should not itself be a primary source) was directly tied to the concept of Original Research. However, it was felt that editors might not understand what was meant by the term "primary source", so...
- In March of 2005 - a definition was added (and, to help clarify further, a definition of what a secondary source is was also added). Unfortunately, at the same time the key phrase "Wikipedia is not a primary source" was removed (with [this edit). Personally I feel this was a mistake, as that phrase went to the heart of this policy. However, the policy at least retained a loose tie to the concept of OR (by stating that OR produces a primary source).
- July 2005 - the discussion of primary and secondary sources was, for the first time, given its own section - around this time the concept that Wikipedia should not itself become a primary source had been restated as: "Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed". This language remained stable in the policy for more than a year.
- Then, in October 2006 - a restructuring of section expand the definitions (adding tertiary sources)... but, sadly, the edit also removes the phrase "Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed".
As I see it, we ended up with a detailed definition of terms, but along the way we cut the initial reason why we included that definition in the first place. Blueboar (talk) 18:46, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
For consideration
The following is not a proposal ... just some thoughts for consideration and discussion. It stems from my belief that the PSTS section overly focuses on defining terms and does not do a good job of explaining how the terms and definitions relate to the concept of "No original research". Not sure where a statement like this would go, or how it would integrate with the rest of the section... and the wording is very preliminary... but I do think something like it would improve the policy.
- Wikipedia is not a primary source. Primary sources present information for the first time. Do not add unsourced material from your personal experience, because that would turn Wikipedia into the primary source of that material. All information on Wikipedia must be published elsewhere before it can be mentioned or discussed on Wikipedia.
- Wikipedia is not a secondary source. Secondary sources compile, synthesize, analyze, interpret, and evaluate material found in primary source, and draw conclusions from them. Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself, or state your own conclusions based on primary sources; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so.
- Wikipedia is a tertiary source.. Tertiary sources summarize the information, analysis, interpretations, evaluations and conclusions found in reliable, published secondary sources (and, to a lesser extent, in other tertiary sources). This is what we should do when building and editing our articles.
Your thoughts? Blueboar (talk) 20:21, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
-
- WP is sometimes a secondary source, in that we do allow the use of primary sources. SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 06:30, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
- But we don't compile primary source material, though we may cite such material occasionally, and we don't (or at least we shouldn't) synthesize, analyze, interpret, and/or evaluate it. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 06:57, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
- WP is sometimes a secondary source, in that we do allow the use of primary sources. SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 06:30, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
-
-
-
- We cite it more than occasionally, and there's no requirement that we compile it before becoming a secondary source (not even sure what that would mean here). When we include primary source material, we become a secondary source for it. So it's just not correct that we're invariably a tertiary source, and it varies a lot between articles. SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 07:01, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
-
-
- I'm so used to coming across once-controversial debates that are cut and dried by the time I get to them, I almost didn't realize I could actually reply here! Yes, I think these categories (or some set like them) would be helpful to draw the Wikipedia Is/Isn't distinction across; given my own understanding of the terms, to ask for synthesis-free restatements of reliable sources that are not direct quotes, and yet do not plagiarize, is paradoxical. This more nuanced explanation, that Wikipedia publishes second-order analyses (etc.) of original research, seems far clearer - and attainable. Mercenary42 (talk) 04:11, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, looks good. I.e. we use this page to talk about primary/secondary/tertiary sources in terms of what kind of source Wikipedia is. The information that addresses the issue in terms of what kinds of sources our sources are (and what consequences that has) should be moved away to the relevant places in V and IRS. This is starting to look almost logical - well done Blueboar!--Kotniski (talk) 10:36, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- I am not at all sure that I agree with the idea of moving the current PSTS material into WP:IRS or WP:V (I have trouble seeing how the material relates to the twin concepts of Verifiability and Reliability). I am not going to knee-jerk object to the idea, but I would need a lot of convincing. Perhaps we should save that for a later discussion. I realize that I am suggesting a new and different way of thinking about the topic of primary/secondary/tertiary (or perhaps a return to an older way of thinking about it) ... but that does not mean I want to throw the baby out with the bath water either. While I am sure that my new approach will impact the current language, I do like a lot of the current language, and would like to see it retained if we can. So... if people like where I am going with this, let's think of it (at least initially) in terms of being a clarification/addition, rather than as an outright replacement. Blueboar (talk) 13:55, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- Very clear and illucidating language. PPdd (talk) 14:37, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not saying the current language should be replaced; just moved to the appropriate page. Whether a source is primary, secondary or so on is an issue so closely related to the reliability of that source (for Wikipedia's purposes) that it just cries out to be moved to WP:IRS. I certainly can't see how it belongs on this page (if we're assuming that there really is a topic called "original research" that's distinct from verifiability).--Kotniski (talk) 16:21, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- I am not at all sure that I agree with the idea of moving the current PSTS material into WP:IRS or WP:V (I have trouble seeing how the material relates to the twin concepts of Verifiability and Reliability). I am not going to knee-jerk object to the idea, but I would need a lot of convincing. Perhaps we should save that for a later discussion. I realize that I am suggesting a new and different way of thinking about the topic of primary/secondary/tertiary (or perhaps a return to an older way of thinking about it) ... but that does not mean I want to throw the baby out with the bath water either. While I am sure that my new approach will impact the current language, I do like a lot of the current language, and would like to see it retained if we can. So... if people like where I am going with this, let's think of it (at least initially) in terms of being a clarification/addition, rather than as an outright replacement. Blueboar (talk) 13:55, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, looks good. I.e. we use this page to talk about primary/secondary/tertiary sources in terms of what kind of source Wikipedia is. The information that addresses the issue in terms of what kinds of sources our sources are (and what consequences that has) should be moved away to the relevant places in V and IRS. This is starting to look almost logical - well done Blueboar!--Kotniski (talk) 10:36, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
I agree with some of the motivation, but I have a couple concerns. The first is that I'm not sure "Wikipedia is not a secondary source" is completely accurate. For example, consider the list of Pokemon characters. Is that article really a tertiary source? I don't think it is; the main sources are all primary, because there aren't secondary sources about Pokemon characters as there would be, say, for the French revolution. The deeper issue is that "Wikipedia articles must be based on secondary sources" isn't completely accurate: many of our articles are based on primary sources. But taking that idea one step farther seems to increase the difference between this policy and reality. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:25, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah... Despite the fact that multiple policies and guidelines (including the current version of NOR) repeatedly say that articles should be based on secondary sources, there are some topics (especially on Pop-culture) where we routinely Ignore all these policy and guideline statements and rely on primary sources. I don't think that changes anything. I still think Wikipedia is (or, at least, is supposed to be) a tertiary source, even if we occasionally forget (or choose to ignore) that fact. Blueboar (talk) 16:05, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- (As an aside... I have long felt that most of our "list of" articles are more appropriate for an almanac than an encyclopedia. If I were running things, I would create a WikiAlmanac sister project as a place for such material) Blueboar (talk) 16:37, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
-
- I tend to approach it from the opposite side: I look at the collection of articles we have, and they tell me what Wikipedia is supposed to be. When I came to WP, I was attracted by the goal of providing access to a large portion of human knowledge – which it has made some progress towards doing. It's true that some policies have been written that conflict somewhat with that basic goal, but I tend to view that situation as saying that the policies aren't completely right, not as saying that we have ignored the policies when writing articles.
-
- It's hard to write policies that accurately describe our best practices, which include articles based on many different types of sources. For the French revolution, we use secondary sources because that's the right thing to do; for the list of Pokemon characters we do what's right for that article. In many cases the articles predate the policy wording, which makes me think the policy is ignoring the articles rather than the other way around. If the policy said, "use the best, most appropriate sources for each article", that would represent our best practices better than "every article should be based on secondary sources". — Carl (CBM · talk) 17:10, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- Source typing and the prohibition on synthesis both came into the policy (t seems to me)as tools (weapons) against some editing on some topics that was disturbing to some editors. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and ought to, as a first approximation, include everything a good encyclopedia can include. Because of the specific nature of Wikipedia there is the possibility that some editors, either through zeal for a particular point of view or through ignorance, will introduce material that violates the basic principle: Wikipedia is not a primary source and is not to be used as one. Original research, no matter it's merit or appeal (to whatever audience it may appeal) is not to be included ion Wikipedia. A lot of time and effort have been expended on source typing and synthesis, on the grounds that use of some sources might introduce original research or the use of synthesis might introduce original research. Simple declarative sentences might be used to introduce original research but (for which we can be thankful) no prohibition on simple declarative sentences has yet been proposed or added to the policy. Should not the emphasis be on quality (of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia?) If some editor or faction of editors is aware of how some source (kind of source) or some technique may be improperly used to introduce OR surely those editors will be doing a service by correcting the error, probably by removing the offending material. To perpetually wrangle over the policy seems not to serve the goal of quality.
- Does anyone else notice that the place in Wikipedia where OR most often occurs is in this very page, the discussion of WP:NOR?
- I like Blueboar's first point (Wikipedia is not a primary source.) That's the basic policy: no original research. Attempts to go further will inevitably get mired in discussion. I suggest that the reason for this is that the goal (having some specific prohibitions in the policy) isn't a good goal. Clarifications have to be made, modifying clauses have to be added - and soon the community is once again engaged in an OR frenzy in the discussion of WP:NOR.
- I find it plausible that the EB doesn't have the same prohibition on OR that Wikipedia does. I think the EB is a fine encyclopedia. It has a different nature from Wikipedia and that different nature can perhaps allow OR, at least in some limited case. (After all, many major articles are written by true experts in the field of the article, persons qualified to do OR in that field.)
- The underlying polices of the EB and Wikipedia can be largely the same - but in the case of Wikipedia there is a prohibition against OR. Wouldn't it seem reasonable that if the policies of both were codified that the only major difference between them would be the sentence in the Wikipedia policy that says OR is forbidden? OK, editors need guidance. That guidance has to be clear, it has to be accurate (meaning, for instance, that the definition of terms such as "primary source" cannot be floating, ought not to be Wikipedia-specific misshapen variations of what the term means outside Wikipedia), has to be motivated by a desire to guide (not by a desire to create a quickly-citable reason for summarily edits.)
- It might be the best thing to do would be to back up by several years or to simply start over. Blueboar has pretty much attempted something of that sort. Why not rethink? Minasbeede (talk) 05:19, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
- It's hard to write policies that accurately describe our best practices, which include articles based on many different types of sources. For the French revolution, we use secondary sources because that's the right thing to do; for the list of Pokemon characters we do what's right for that article. In many cases the articles predate the policy wording, which makes me think the policy is ignoring the articles rather than the other way around. If the policy said, "use the best, most appropriate sources for each article", that would represent our best practices better than "every article should be based on secondary sources". — Carl (CBM · talk) 17:10, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
-
-
-
- EB differs from WP regarding all three content policies. They allow OR, especially in named expert articles. They don't require sourcing. And they don't require neutrality. So there's really no point of comparison. SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 06:29, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
-
-
-
-
-
-
- well, OK, then the Wikipedia policy and the EB policy differ in three ways, not one. The comment isn't aimed at attacking or weakening the Wikipedia policies, it's an attempt to direct policy-writing focus to what it is that makes for a good article in a good encyclopedia. I still maintain that there have to be broad areas of agreement between the two simply because of the huge overlap between the purposes of the two. My plea is for the policies, particularly when they are intended to provide guidance, to serve to favor the creation of good articles. EB and wikipedia are both universal encyclopedias. I say they are very similar in that regard. The implied comparison is focused on the factors that make for a good article and I cannot see how that is invalid. [The only neutrality point I can think of with respect to the EB is their having two articles on the Great War (later called the 1st World War) written by experts from each of the major sides in the conflict because the editors recognized that single-article neutrality that close in time to the end of the war was impossible. Now, I think, they no longer do that.]Minasbeede (talk) 01:50, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
-
-
-
Blueboar, this type of 30,000' view discussion is what we need more of, so nice work! Now on to the discussion. The premise of your statement is that it is useful to define WP's place in it's own PST source classification system. The question is: why? Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:04, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well, that wasn't the intent of my statement... but to answer the question: Because I think doing so will better tie our source typing system to the concept of "No original research". I think something along the lines of what I am suggesting helps to explain to our editors why we discuss source types in this policy in the first place. The current PSTS section does an excellent job of telling editors "don't do this"... but it does not clearly explain why they should not "do this". Blueboar (talk) 14:23, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well... I thought we'd established before that it doesn't do an excellent job at all, because it keeps making statements about the particular kinds of sources that apply equally well to all the other kinds of sources. I still don't see why you think all the information in that section belongs on this page (accepting for the moment that there's a reason for this page to exist, i.e. that original research is something distinct from just breaches of WP:V). --Kotniski (talk) 14:40, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
- To be honest, I don't think we have really "established" much of anything (except, perhaps, that each of us have different, sometime overlapping, views about what is good and bad about the PSTS section). Do I think the current language has flaws?... absolutely. Do I never-the-less like and agree with a lot of the current language?... yup. Is this contradictory? ... perhaps. Do I think that approaching the entire issue from a completely different angle could improve the policy? Yes, that is why I started this thread. Do I have a firm grasp of exactly what that new angle should be, or how it will impact the policy? Nope... I am groping towards it, and asking the rest of you to grope along with me. Blueboar (talk) 18:44, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
- PSTS doesn't add anything to policy that isn't already covered in the rest of WP:NOR. It strays off topic when it defines various types of sources. That information is better placed in Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. A previous comment about staying on topic may be useful for guidance. 75.47.131.120 (talk) 23:39, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
- I understand (and to some extent agree with) the concern that the definitions in PSTS are "off topic" in this policy ... but I am concerned that moving them to IRS would simply shift the problem to a new page. Can you explain why you think the material is "on topic" at that page? What do the definitions have to do with the concept of identifying reliable sources? Blueboar (talk) 00:16, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well, reliable sources (except for the purposes of just saying what's in the source) need to be secondary or tertiary. This seems to be effectively one of the criteria for identifying a reliable source. The main reason we find ourselves debating whether a particular source is primary/secondary and so on is that primary sources are not generally considered reliable for facts other than the facts of their own content. Also for the purpose of establishing notability, we expect mentions in reliable, secondary sources. The two concepts (though not identical, of course) are so closely tied together that it seems obvious to me that they ought to be dealt with on the same page.--Kotniski (talk) 11:11, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
- For secondary sources, can we say things that are not in the source? I don't understand the first sentence. Reliability seems to be unrelated to the nature of the source. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:24, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
- We can't say things that are not in the source, but we can say things other than that something is in the source. This keeps coming up - I'm sure there must be some jargon for it, any ideas? If a source X contains statement P, then if X is a totally reliable source then we can say P, but if its reliability is limited to its own content then we can no longer say P, but we can still say "X says P". Pretty much any (genuine) sources are reliable as to their own content, but to be reliable in the former, stronger sense, we expect more - that the source be published, reputable, etc., and generally speaking that it be a secondary (or at least not primary) source. That might be an oversimplification, but it still remains clear to me that the primary/secondary/.. distinction relates very closely to reliability of sources, and not at all to originality of research (if you use a primary source as you would a secondary one, it might constitute a breach of our standards of neutrality or verifiability, but it can hardly be called original - we're assuming here that this page has the right to exist at all, i.e. that it relates specifically to something called "original research" that doesn't just mean any breach of WP:V).--Kotniski (talk) 14:13, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
- The "X says P" way of writing is (1) not required, in general, for every reference of a primary source and (2) is sometimes required even for secondary sources. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:03, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'm sorry that I don't have time to participate to the extent that I'd like to in this discussion, but I do just want to say that Carl has my proxy. I've read through the thread, and agree with everything he's said here, so pretty much anytime he writes something, please mentally add a "What he said", afterwards, followed by my sig. :-) – OhioStandard (talk) 16:38, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
- The "X says P" way of writing is (1) not required, in general, for every reference of a primary source and (2) is sometimes required even for secondary sources. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:03, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
- We can't say things that are not in the source, but we can say things other than that something is in the source. This keeps coming up - I'm sure there must be some jargon for it, any ideas? If a source X contains statement P, then if X is a totally reliable source then we can say P, but if its reliability is limited to its own content then we can no longer say P, but we can still say "X says P". Pretty much any (genuine) sources are reliable as to their own content, but to be reliable in the former, stronger sense, we expect more - that the source be published, reputable, etc., and generally speaking that it be a secondary (or at least not primary) source. That might be an oversimplification, but it still remains clear to me that the primary/secondary/.. distinction relates very closely to reliability of sources, and not at all to originality of research (if you use a primary source as you would a secondary one, it might constitute a breach of our standards of neutrality or verifiability, but it can hardly be called original - we're assuming here that this page has the right to exist at all, i.e. that it relates specifically to something called "original research" that doesn't just mean any breach of WP:V).--Kotniski (talk) 14:13, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
- (This was discussed many years ago, too.) For scientific material the criteria are different. You don't go to a secondary source for an important breakthrough, you go to the primary source. So this creates the Wikipedia-specific idiosyncratic definition of "primary" and of "secondary" (at least that's how this was handled way back then.) If it is fresh research you may wait (or need to wait) until the new material has been verified before incorporating it in an encyclopedia but when you incorporate it you cite the work of the discovery/developer, not later commentators.
- The point here is that the discussion about PSTS centers on non-science articles but the policy is a general policy and is wrong for science articles. Sure, the proponents of PSTS don't concern themselves with scientific articles and won't bother editors who (quite properly) cite primary sources but the policy isn't appropriate for those articles and there is always the danger that some zealot will start ripping up articles for violating a principle that is wrong for an important part of Wikipedia. Minasbeede (talk) 01:34, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- For secondary sources, can we say things that are not in the source? I don't understand the first sentence. Reliability seems to be unrelated to the nature of the source. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:24, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well, reliable sources (except for the purposes of just saying what's in the source) need to be secondary or tertiary. This seems to be effectively one of the criteria for identifying a reliable source. The main reason we find ourselves debating whether a particular source is primary/secondary and so on is that primary sources are not generally considered reliable for facts other than the facts of their own content. Also for the purpose of establishing notability, we expect mentions in reliable, secondary sources. The two concepts (though not identical, of course) are so closely tied together that it seems obvious to me that they ought to be dealt with on the same page.--Kotniski (talk) 11:11, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
- I understand (and to some extent agree with) the concern that the definitions in PSTS are "off topic" in this policy ... but I am concerned that moving them to IRS would simply shift the problem to a new page. Can you explain why you think the material is "on topic" at that page? What do the definitions have to do with the concept of identifying reliable sources? Blueboar (talk) 00:16, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
- PSTS doesn't add anything to policy that isn't already covered in the rest of WP:NOR. It strays off topic when it defines various types of sources. That information is better placed in Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. A previous comment about staying on topic may be useful for guidance. 75.47.131.120 (talk) 23:39, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
- To be honest, I don't think we have really "established" much of anything (except, perhaps, that each of us have different, sometime overlapping, views about what is good and bad about the PSTS section). Do I think the current language has flaws?... absolutely. Do I never-the-less like and agree with a lot of the current language?... yup. Is this contradictory? ... perhaps. Do I think that approaching the entire issue from a completely different angle could improve the policy? Yes, that is why I started this thread. Do I have a firm grasp of exactly what that new angle should be, or how it will impact the policy? Nope... I am groping towards it, and asking the rest of you to grope along with me. Blueboar (talk) 18:44, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well... I thought we'd established before that it doesn't do an excellent job at all, because it keeps making statements about the particular kinds of sources that apply equally well to all the other kinds of sources. I still don't see why you think all the information in that section belongs on this page (accepting for the moment that there's a reason for this page to exist, i.e. that original research is something distinct from just breaches of WP:V). --Kotniski (talk) 14:40, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
There are a lot of good and interesting points being made here, but on the question of which page these issues ought to be discussed on, I'm still not seeing anyone making a link between the issue of distinguishing P/S/T sources and the subject we propose to call "original research". Does anyone want to make such a link? If not, I still don't see any reason to keep the material on this page rather than V or IRS.--Kotniski (talk) 12:44, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
-
- Re: "I'm still not seeing anyone making a link between the issue of distinguishing P/S/T sources and the subject we propose to call "original research". Well, that is what I was trying to do in opening this thread... by shifting the focus of our discussion away from "what type of source can be used in Wikipedia" and towards "what type of source is Wikipedia itself". To me, the fundamental reason why we don't allow OR is that Wikipedia is not a primary source, and the inclusion of OR would make it so. Blueboar (talk) 15:18, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- It would make it a primary source or a secondary source, depending on what type of OR it was (presentation of completely new material vs. analysis of existing primary sources). But I don't think this is the fundamental reason we don't allow OR (after all, as long as we're just reporting on the content of primary sources, we're quite happy to be a secondary source) - and even if it were, that wouldn't justify a lot of detailed analysis about what kind of sources count as primary, secondary and tertiary.--Kotniski (talk) 16:15, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- Re: "I'm still not seeing anyone making a link between the issue of distinguishing P/S/T sources and the subject we propose to call "original research". Well, that is what I was trying to do in opening this thread... by shifting the focus of our discussion away from "what type of source can be used in Wikipedia" and towards "what type of source is Wikipedia itself". To me, the fundamental reason why we don't allow OR is that Wikipedia is not a primary source, and the inclusion of OR would make it so. Blueboar (talk) 15:18, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- ... and for moving the definitions material, consider the articles Primary source, Secondary source, and Tertiary source if the material isn't already there. Also note that the material for removal would include most of the material in the Notes section. In any case the material doesn't belong in WP:NOR. 75.47.146.197 (talk) 15:05, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
- Additionally, the terms are unclear (a single source can be classified as more than one type) and unnecessary for WP:NOR. 75.47.159.5 (talk) 04:52, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
Multi article SYNTH
Does it count as original research via WP:SYNTH if an article has information that does not apply for what links to the article?
Example:
- Bob adds a sourced sentence in the article "Swastika": Bill said that everyone wearing a swastika deserves to be punished.
- Bob then adds links to the "Swastika" article in another article that states The symbol used to represent Jainism is a Swastika with the dots present.
- These articles, together imply that Bill has problems with Jainism, when in reality Bill has nothing against them.
173.183.79.81 (talk) 00:20, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- Um, I don't see the implication in the links. So I would have to say, no, it isn't WP:SYNTH. Blueboar (talk) 22:23, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
-
- Adding Easter-egg links can indeed amount to SYNTH or just straightforward OR. SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 22:29, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
-
-
- Yes, but this does not seem (to me) to be an Easter egg situation. I would assume that "Bill" is objecting to the swastika due to its association with Nazis, not its association with Jainism. If so, the situation can be easily fixed by editing the "Bill said" statement so that this "anti-nazi" context is clear. Blueboar (talk) 22:42, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
-
-
-
-
- My understanding of the example was that Bob said everyone wearing a swastika (implication: Nazi) deserves to be punished. But someone had snuck in an Easter-egg link that linked swastika to Jainism. Ergo, everyone involved with Jainism deserves to be punished = a form of SYNTH, or just plain OR. SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 23:50, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
-
-
I didn't really meant to imply original research, just whether or not something should be changed to avoid misleading, and more specifically, what could possibly be change to avoid the misleading. 173.183.79.81 (talk) 00:20, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Easter egg links aren't a good idea if the link is in any way contentious or misleading, so that's one thing you can ask be stopped. It definitely can be a form of OR. SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 01:14, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Presumably the article swastika makes clear that not all swastikas are Nazi ones. If we are sure (for some reason) that what Bill had in mind was Nazi swastikas, then that quote should presumably appear in the article in the context of specifically Nazi swastikas; so I don't see how anyone could really be misled. (Of course, Bill might indeed think that all people wearing swastikas, Nazi or otherwise, should be punished - in which case he presumably really does have something against the Jains' use of the symbol.)--Kotniski (talk) 07:16, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- (I do agree that "easter egg links" are often a problem, but from my understanding of the situation as described here, no easter eggs are involved this time.)--Kotniski (talk) 07:19, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
A few points here:
- The example seems rather artificial.
- I can't see how the proclaimed conclusions necessarily follows.
- You cannot treat separate articles as blocks in a logic puzzle, since the formal logic usually doesn't capture the complexity of articles. What might appear as mandatory logic conclusion at first glance to some, is usually none when you take a closer look.
--Kmhkmh (talk) 10:22, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
What was probably had in mind with the "Easter egg link" thing would be a sentence like, say, "Jains us the swastika as a symbol", where the word "swastika" is linked to the article Nazism. That would certainly be inappropriate. Or even the same sentence with "swastika" linked to swastika, but only if the article swastika were exclusively about the Nazi symbol (which in fact it isn't). I wouldn't put this practice under the heading of original synthesis, but they're something to be avoided whatever they're called. Sometimes they're just mistakes, of course, as editors don't always check the subject matter of the articles they link to.--Kotniski (talk) 10:43, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
-
- Okay, I see now what the IP's saying; sorry for being dense. I don't see what we could do about the kind of example's he offering. I had a similar thing (assuming I've understood him properly now) with an article about an alleged miscarriage of justice. The accused's lawyer is appealing the conviction, and he has a WP BLP, which I'd normally link to. But the BLP is problematic, accusing the lawyer of shady practices—reliably sourced, but written in an unnecessarily breathless tone. I decided not to link to it, but someone else did, and I could hardly object. The problem is that the link to the BLP arguably undermines neutrality in the miscarriage of justice article, if you look at the two articles as one unit. It's not SYNTH or OR, but it's awkward. SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 22:27, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- However in that case I'd see it simply a case of (malicious) false linking and a not a case of OR. You cannot combine different articles to create OR.--Kmhkmh (talk) 22:54, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
-
- This case wasn't even false linking; the link was accurate. It was just that the lawyer's BLP was very negative, and it therefore undermined the article about the lawyer's case. I accept it's not really OR. It just had the flavor of it, slightly, in that none of the sources writing about the case had mentioned the lawyer's negative reputation, so it was an interesting form of (sort of) SYN-by-linking. SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 23:39, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Sounds as if the problem here was not so much the link, but the writing of the target article. But I think we certainly can create OR by linking; for example, if a word has two senses on which we have two different articles, and we give a quote from someone which includes that word, and link that word to one of the two articles - it needs to be very plainly clear that it was that meaning and not the other that was intended, otherwise I would say it was a form of OR (i.e. making our own interpretation of the source).--Kotniski (talk) 08:00, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- This case wasn't even false linking; the link was accurate. It was just that the lawyer's BLP was very negative, and it therefore undermined the article about the lawyer's case. I accept it's not really OR. It just had the flavor of it, slightly, in that none of the sources writing about the case had mentioned the lawyer's negative reputation, so it was an interesting form of (sort of) SYN-by-linking. SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 23:39, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
Table of Contents structure, Mind maps
There is discussion of use of mind maps at WikiProject Medicine[1]. The issue is more broad than use in medical articles. They may be considered OR. Defects cannot be edited out, and they cannot be updated. On the other hand, they are roughly equivalent to organizational structure created in a table of contents, which is usually not considered OR, and they may supplement a table of contents and improve WP for readers.
- (1) Is organizational structure in a table of contents OR when the organizational structure itself is not verifiable with RS?
- (2) If organizational structure in a table of contents is not verfiable with RS, why is a mind map OR but not the table of contents?
- (3) If a mind map is not OR, does it sometimes improve WP by helping some readers by supplementing a table of contents?
- (4) Is there a way to make mind maps editable and not static?
- (5) Is there a way to make mind maps link to sections and subsections as does a table of contents, or more strongly, to link to specific content in the article body?
- (6) Should an article have one or more mind maps?
- (7) Should an article have a "mind maps" section at the bottom, similar to the "See also" section, referring to a collection of various mind maps associated with article X, which may be located in a separate "X (mind maps)" article, similar to a "List of X's" associated with article X?
This matter has been discussed before: here, here and here. PPdd (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- It's really a style issue and it's not really a question of "function" it's just a question of "form" and while there are potential WP:UNDUE questions as to what's included or not, I doubt that the reliability is really an issue. It's really more a question of utility, which is an article-by-article decision. Honestly, if we have a table of contents why do we need a mind map? It seems like it's just an alternate way of presenting very similar information, with the additional problem of barriers to editing. It'd be an interesting way of formatting an article, incorporating the see alsos and the external links as well, but in general I don't see the value. SDY (talk) 15:15, 17 March 2011 (UTC)