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Problem in gallery and request for this article to be moved
A lot of people in the image gallery are represented as Tajiks while this is not true. Ferodwsi was born in Iran, therefore he could not have been Tajik. Secondly Rabia Balkhi was of Arab descent therefore she could not have been of Tajik descent either. Lastly, why is Muhammad of Ghori included in the gallery of Tajiks? He was not a Tajik, the ghorids themselves were believed to be Pashtuns and they were NOT native speakers of the Persian language but rather patronizers of the culture. There seems to be a lot of vandalism and propaganda being posted by Tajiks here themselves with no evidence being provided. I also request the Tajik article to be moved to the "Persian People" article as a sub-category to erase confusion of Tajiks being a separate group.
Akmal94 (talk) 09:39, 17 February 2015 (UTC)Akmal94
- @Akmal94: Agreed, the current gallery is very problematic. Many Persians are mistakenly being portrayed as 'ethnic Tajiks' in an entirely anachronistic manner in order to perpetuate a Tajik ethnogenesis. Most of these subjects are only referred to as Tajik in the propagandist literature which was mass produced by 20th-century Tajik nationalists. Even if they were historically referred to as Tajik, it had an entirely different meaning in the past. It was used solely to refer to Arabs and Iranian converts to Islam [1]. See [2] for information on how the modern-day state of Tajikistan attempts to claim virtually all Iranian peoples as ethnic Tajiks irregardless of whether they lived in Central Asia or not.
- The Encyclopedia Iranica article referenced on this very page has some interesting information pertaining to this:
"The modern meaning of “Tajik” has been distorted in Tajik-language and Russian academic usage (both Soviet and post-Soviet) by the propaganda of the complementary agendas of Soviet nationalities policy and Tajik nationalism[...] In most scholarly writing on Persian literature and cultural history (of Iran and India as well as Central Asia) the adjective is usually construed as “Perso-Tajik” or “Tajik-Persian” poetry, historiography, etc., in an atopical and anachronistic application of the national ethnonym to the entire Persianate world [...]"
- I'm going to go ahead and remove all of the purported 'Tajiks' whom have no references to their supposed ethnicity on their article pages. The allusion to the Samanid Empire on this article are also troubling [3]. Elspamo4 (talk) 05:01, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
- @Akmal94: The procedure for requesting moving a page is set forth at Wikipedia:Requested moves. What you appear to be suggesting is a merger of this article into the article entitled Persian People. See Template:Merge to and Template:Merge from. If you choose to continue, please be sure that usage on both templates points to the same place for discussion. If you are serious it would also be appropriate to give notice of the merger discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Iran, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Central Asia, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Afghanistan, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tajikistan, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pakistan, and perhaps Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Azerbaijan and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Western Asia. --Bejnar (talk) 20:34, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Extended off-topic discussion on who is edit-warring and who should provide sources |
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I'm afraid I fail to see what the issue is here. Whether there are references or not to an individual being Tajik in the WP article is irrelevant, as WP is not WP:RS. Ethnicity galleries are not usually sourced, but of course we should not add nonsense. However, none of the two users who repeatedly have blanket deleted have provided any real reason (and no, saying "o references to their supposed ethnicity on their article pages" is not a reason). Kindly provide relevant arguments for each individual you want to remove and then wait for the discussion to end instead of the recent edit warring you have engaged in.Jeppiz (talk) 19:13, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
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- I won't ask you to read all of my arguments, since you're probably not interested in Tajiks, but do me a favor and read the articles of some of the more notable people purported as Tajik on this article, such as Avicenna, Khwarizmi or Muhammad al-Bukhari. You will not find a single mention of "Tajik" on their article pages. I searched for books in an attempt to prove a possibility of their ethnicity being Tajik and I couldn't find any sources which claim this to be the case. Hence, I removed them from this page. This was done per the policy: "Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed". Removing unreferenced and unproven information is not edit warring. You said it yourself: "of course we should not add nonsense". Adding Khwarizmi or Avicenna to the gallery is not any less nonsensical than adding, say, Obama or Will Ferrel. There is no justification for labeling any of these people as "Tajik" because there are no references, on or off Wikipedia, which stake this claim. Thus, the onus is on the people who wish to re-add the pictures to at least find some sort of reference purporting these peoples' Tajik ethnicity and plaster it on their article pages. I have no obligation to find a source which argues against their Tajik ethnicity; trying to do so would be attempting to prove a negative. I really don't see how any sort of a consensus would be required to remove ludicrously inaccurate and unreferenced matieral, even in ethnicity galleries. Elspamo4 (talk) 22:08, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
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- @Elspamo4: I'm sure you agree I cannot be held responsible for what User:Scytsari wrote, and while I don't agree with the edit warring, I'm the first to agree that you're certainly not a vandal, and that your edits are made in good faith. However, your arguments are very poor. You say it is no less nonsensical to add Obama than to add Avicenna. Pardon me, but that is where you lose all credibility. Avicenna spoke and wrote the language that would develop into modern Tajik (and modern Persian), he was born in a city that both then and now was/is populated by what became ethnic Tajiks. If you think that that is comparable to Obama or Will Ferrel being Tajiks, well, I'm afraid you either lack rudimentary knowledge or you really cannot present a case. Your tiresome insistence that it is "ludicrously inaccurate" material is rather empty. Both your silly comparison with Obama and your sweeping generalizations only serve to highlight that you appear to have no factual arguments.Jeppiz (talk) 22:45, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Elspamo4. "Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed". Many of the nonsense additions were Medieval Persians, besides a Ghurid, and a Khwarezmian-speaker (i.e. Al-Biruni). Reliable sources don't consider them Tajiks. We can add only those figures to the gallery who are unncontroversially Tajiks. Khestwol (talk) 23:01, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
- I agree that we should only add figures who are uncontroversially Tajiks. Deducing that Avicenna is Tajik because he was born in a city which was populated by 'what became Tajiks' is pure OR and anachronic. I also don't see how speaking Persian and Arabic makes him Tajik. Please find a reliable source which claims he is Tajik. Keep in mind that the ethnicity of historical figures are a hotly debated issue; Avicenna has been claimed by multiple ethnic groups. The only literature that claims he is Tajik is state propaganda. I also think you completely misunderstand the context in which Tajik was used in historical times. It certainly wasn't an ethnonym in Avicenna's time. Elspamo4 (talk)
- @Elspamo4: I'm sure you agree I cannot be held responsible for what User:Scytsari wrote, and while I don't agree with the edit warring, I'm the first to agree that you're certainly not a vandal, and that your edits are made in good faith. However, your arguments are very poor. You say it is no less nonsensical to add Obama than to add Avicenna. Pardon me, but that is where you lose all credibility. Avicenna spoke and wrote the language that would develop into modern Tajik (and modern Persian), he was born in a city that both then and now was/is populated by what became ethnic Tajiks. If you think that that is comparable to Obama or Will Ferrel being Tajiks, well, I'm afraid you either lack rudimentary knowledge or you really cannot present a case. Your tiresome insistence that it is "ludicrously inaccurate" material is rather empty. Both your silly comparison with Obama and your sweeping generalizations only serve to highlight that you appear to have no factual arguments.Jeppiz (talk) 22:45, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
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>I also think you completely misunderstand the context in which Tajik was used in historical times. It certainly wasn't an ethnonym in Avicenna's time. are you uneducated or what? The term tajik was most certainly used during his time - the word tajik is literally a synonym for persian, one is a greek term and one is a turkic term all for the same farsi/parsi speakers - avicenna was born in the samanid empire, to say he was not a persian/tajik is fallacious. Mad vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scytsari (talk • contribs) 04:19, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
- Stop accusing me of vandalism. No one is saying he was not Persian. That still does not make him Tajik. Tajik is a specific sub-group of Persian people, not the other way around. Unless you are able to find a reliable source stating very clearly that he was a part of this particular ethnic sub-group, and place it on the articles of the people you claim are 'Tajik', I see little benefit of continuing this discussion. And, for the last time, place of birth is not a determinant of ethnicity. Doubly so when you try to apply this faulty logic in such an anachronistic manner. Elspamo4 (talk) 04:48, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
- The Uzbeks page doesn't seem to have any 5th century Persians in their ethnicity gallery. All of the people listed as Uzbek have SOURCES in their articles supporting this view. So please stop re-adding nonsense state propaganda to this page. Elspamo4 (talk) 04:57, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
- @Scytsari: I know Tajiks are Central Asian Persians, and Tajik is a synonym for Persian-speaking groups. But using Tajik instead of Persian is anachronism and original research. You need historical sources or reliable references to use Tajik as an identity for medieval Persians/Iranians of Central Asia. Why? Because the definition of modern ethnic group Tajik may be confusing and you need to clarify its medieval usage as an ethnic identity. Try Encyclopædia Iranica official website. If you provide reliable sources, nobody will remove them from the infobox again. We can't use our very own interpretation of the sources. For example, if a source says "X was a Persian...", we should only use "Persian", not Iranian/Afghan/Tajik/. --Zyma (talk) 06:57, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
>That still does not make him Tajik. Tajik is a specific sub-group of Persian people, not the other way around Again, demonstrating you have no idea what you're talking about, I advise you to go to iranica or any other source and educate yourself on the term "tajik", it's etymology, when it was used, why it was used and who it refers to. Even up until the 1800s german sources referred to farsi speaking iranians in iran as tajiks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scytsari (talk • contribs) 20:49, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
- As juicy and enlightening reading through this discussion was, it seems like some users do not like our staunch edits. Granted, we have no agenda here, all we are trying to do is clear up confusion which can mislead others who may come and read this article. However, 3 people here including me, Khestwol and Elspamo4 have agreed that the current gallery is very problematic and misleading. None of these people can be seen as "Tajiks" because the term "Tajik" was not used for a single ethnic group until the soviet era which even then had a negative notion with inhabitants of Tajikistan. Why forget that the term was used specifically to Arabs in the past? Does that mean Ibn Sina was Arab then? Its just as silly to add a portrait of Kaniskha in the Pashtun People gallery just because he happened to be from their region because the term Afghan was not applied later. We can only add pictures of people in modern times who accept and seem themselves as Tajik rather then past figures which can be seen as controversial. Furthermore it seems like past edit has once again been reverted by an unknown user with no reason being given. Akmal94 (talk) 14:09, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
Nope, that's a fallacious false equivalency, kanishka was one - not a pashto speaker, and two, not from pashtun regions. The term tajik in almost every person identified as tajik in this time was present, it's a term used for persians by the turkics. Avicenna's father was from then, balkh, a tajik dominated area/persian dominated area, and he lived his life/was born in a tajik/persian dominated area. Same with your other many examples, several of which have made poems referring to themselves and cultural group as tajiks. You just seem to be a pashtun with an agenda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scytsari (talk • contribs) 20:02, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
Who should be included in the infobox and why
OK, a lot of discussion has been made above about the content of the infobox, but none of the discussion was productive because no one provided any WP:reliable sources for their claims. Let's try to make some productive discussion. As I understand, certain editors (Elspamo4, Akmal94) claim that some images should be removed from the infobox (namely, images of Rudaki, Avicenna, Khwarizmi, Biruni, Al-Bukhari, Jami, Nasir Khusraw, Ismail Samani, Muhammad Ghori and Rabia Balkhi). The reason provided for the removal is that those persons were not Tajiks. Whether that is correct or not, I don't know. But, indeed, the article does not cite any reliable sources to prove that hey were Tajiks. So, Elspamo4 removed those images as they present unreferenced information (diff). That was perfectly correct thing to do: unreferenced material that is suspected to be wrong should be removed until the source is found. After that, some editors (i.e. Jeppiz) reinstated the images (diff) claiming that "there is no consensus to delete". That was the wrong step. We don't need consensus to remove unsourced information from the article. Instead of reinstating the images, Jeppiz should have provided some sources that those persons were Tajiks before making edit. But, as I can see, no sources were ever provided. This resulted in an full-scale edit war, and the article is now temporarily protected. So, to conclude: following Wikipedia's policy on WP:verifiability, we should not include images of people for whom we have no reliable sources to prove that they were Tajiks. We don't need consensus for that, Wikipedia policies are themselves result of a longstanding consensus. So, editors arguing for the inclusion of those images should use those few days while the article is protected to present some reliable sources to prove those persons were Tajiks. If no sources are presented in a timely manner, those images should be removed. Now, please, everybody, stop arguing about who started the edit-war and who is guilty, and start presenting sources. Vanjagenije (talk) 00:17, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you for looking into the issue Vanjagenije. I am one of the editors who objected to the inclusion of non-Tajik images into the gallery of the Tajiks. Khestwol (talk) 00:49, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
- Add Rumi and Hammasa Kohistani to the list of people who should be removed. I was tricked by Kohistani's page because it used to state that she was Tajik (with a reference), but as I have discovered, the reference was used deceptively and did not mention anything about her ethnicity being Tajik. So to reiterate, for anyone who wishes to re-add any of these pictures, reliable sources must be posted on the page of the subject themselves, and you must post here listing the article you have added the reliable source(s) to so that we can judge its veracity.
- The article content should be discussed as well. I believe we should remove any mentions of the Samanid Empire because it is anachronic and has nothing to do with the modern Tajik ethnicity, even if it was called Tajik. Because as we have already established, 'Tajik' had a different meaning in the past and was not an ethnonym. I'd like further opinions on this. Elspamo4 (talk) 17:05, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
- Comment Unfortunately, some editors are using their own interpretations and WP:POV to decide who is Tajik and who is not. To take but one example, the insistence that we can only deal with "modern" Tajiks is entirely erroneous. For most galleries in infoboxes on different peoples and nations, there are both modern and more ancient personalities. For instance, Leonardo da Vinci is listed as Italian, even though "Italy" didn't exist at the time and Erasmus is listed as Dutch. Correct in both cases. I'm a bit unsure about what "sources" are needed. Few people except loony extremists require DNA testing to determine a person's ethnicity, so if a modern person is both Tajik, quite obviously we list them as Tajik without going into some bizarre ethnic testing. This comes to mind reading the suggestion to remove Hammasa Kohistani. It's really quite simple. We apply the same criteria for this article as for any article article on any people/nation. The bar is not any higher here than elsewhere. When reading that Elspamo4 is not only limited to removing anyone not explicitly called Tajik but even wants to remove historical people called Tajik, it's no longer possible to keep good faith and it becomes obvious we're back to the tiresome nationalist campaign that various socks have been waging on this article for over a year now.Jeppiz (talk) 18:35, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
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- There are currently no reliable sources stating that they are Tajik. The fact that you attempt to contrast Leonardo da Vinci being Italian with Avicenna, Khwarizmi or Rumi being Tajik as a response to my claim of the latter being anachronistic is laughable. Again, please find reliable sources which back up your claims of these subjects' Tajik ethnicity.
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- I would highly recommend that you strike your last sentence which states that it's "no longer possible to keep good faith" before going on to accuse me of 'nationalism' and sockpuppetry. These accusations are completely baseless and not conducive to the conversation whatsoever. Elspamo4 (talk) 21:02, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
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- It's not a secret that this article was the target of a long campaign by several socks [4] and I see no reason to strike a perfectly factual statement. I'm not saying you're a sock, I'm merely stating you (and several others) have been edit warring about exactly the same issue that those socks used to edit war about, also a perfectly factual statement. As for factual matters, I note that your only response is to dismiss my comments as "laughable". Neither serious nor convincing.Jeppiz (talk) 21:32, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
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- Da Vinci was born in Florence, an Italian city-state on the Italian peninsula whose inhabitants identified as Italian. He spoke Italian. There are hundreds, if not thousands of references calling him Italian. How does that lead you to conclude that Avicenna, a Persian person who spoke Persian and who was born in a Persian empire, is therefore Tajik - an ethnic sub-group of Persians that didn't exist back then? Do you not see how illogical and anachronistic that is? If you want to prove me wrong, do it with reliable sources, not with your own opinion.
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- I still don't understand how you mischaracterize removing unreferenced materials as 'edit warring'. You are right that it was added by socks who have edit-warred ever since to keep it in the article. But to state that those who have removed it are 'edit warring' is just... Elspamo4 (talk) 21:53, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
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Except it's NOT a subgroup, again, i advise you to simply go to iranica and check WHEN, WHERE, and WHY the term tajik was used - it was certainly used in avicenna's time, it's not a subgroup, it's literally just another word for persian just like how the greek term persian encompasses farsi speakers, the turkic term tajik encompasses farsi speakers. Germans were referring to farsi speakers in iran as tajiks up until the 1800s for example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scytsari (talk • contribs) 20:05, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
- Are you implying that Tajik currently isn't a sub group or that it historically wasn't a sub group? Currently, it is a sub group. Historically, in Central Asia, it was a term used to describe Arabs and Persian converts to Islam. According to Iranica, it has been applied as an ethnonym in an anachronistic and inappropriate manner by the Tajik nationalists who sprung up during the Soviet era (read the top of the page where I quote it). Also [5] says: In Central Asia, too, the term "Tajik", like its synonym "Sirt", was for centuries not primarily an ethnic designation but a socio-cultural category. Saying that the ethnicity Tajik is a synonym for Persian is also incorrect, this is simply state propaganda. Read [6]. The 1989 law making Tajik the state language treats "Persian" and "Tajik" as synonyms. These were two of the first three books that appeared in my Google search. I could find dozens more like this but I don't have any reason to prove a negative. Like I requested earlier, please find reliable sources for the subjects' ethnicities and post it on their pages. All you have done thus far is give your own hypothesis. Elspamo4 (talk) 08:16, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
The fact here is that none of these people are mentioned as Tajiks in any source, all this is speculation at best. Jeppiz is wrong in his assertion that there was a vandalism and and edit war going on here, i see none of that going on here. Therefore it is correct to remove these images of past figures since they were not or seen as Tajiks and no sources confirm them as such. I think a vote should be taken here to those who oblige whether these people's images should stay or not to resolve the issue. Akmal94 (talk) 05:57, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
- @Akmal94: Considering that retaining these pictures would be a clear violation of WP:V, I don't think a vote is necessary. Elspamo4 (talk) 17:28, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
Comment It's better to try WP:THIRDOPINION and WP:RFC or ask expert editors on this topic to help, and if you can't reach consensus, then go to WP:DNR. Otherwise, all of you have a chance to get blocked or topic-ban. The article is unstable due to continuous edit warring. If edit wars start after the end of current protection again, all involved editors are responsible. So solve it on here and reach a consensus. --Zyma (talk) 18:45, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
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- @Zyma: Incorrect. Wikipedia is not intended to be used as a soapbox or publisher of original thoughts. Any information which is not cited will be removed as soon as page protection expires. Exceptional claims require exceptional sources, and the claims made on this article have zero sources on Wikipedia. The burden does not lie with anyone else to 'seek consensus' or to try and prove a negative. WP:V dictates that this information should be deleted. This is not to say that I have any issue with the article displaying the picture of a subject who has a reliable source(s) verifying their ethnicity. If you feel it is necessary, no one is stopping you from requesting an RFC. Elspamo4 (talk) 19:15, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
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- @Zyma: I agree that an WP:RFC could be useful. Personally, I have no strong feelings on whom to include or exclude and agree that we should of course only include people whose ethnicity we can verify by using sources. My main objection is not to the content, but to the repeated edit warring that has been going on, and the insistence that championing the WP:TRUTH provides a carte blanche for any kind of behavior.Jeppiz (talk) 20:59, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
Fully protected two more days
Bear in mind that WP:3RR does not entitle you to three reverts. When protection expires again, I will be looking to block anyone who reverts multiple times, rather than re-protecting the article. --NeilN talk to me 21:44, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
- @NeilN: If we reach a consensus here, and if some editors makes an edit (after the protection expires) that is opposite to the consensus, what shall we do? Shell we just let it be or shell we revert him and get blocked? Vanjagenije (talk) 21:53, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
- @Vanjagenije: It's best to consider this article under WP:1RR with respect to the gallery. If there is consensus, then that should ensure edit wars are short lived. --NeilN talk to me 22:12, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
- @NeilN: I don't really understand how would that help. Suppose we reach a consensus, and en editor edits the article according to the consensus. Now, let's suppose another editor reverts him (once). What should the first editor do? Let it be or revert and get blocked? Vanjagenije (talk) 22:16, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
- The answer to that should be obvious, and applies to all articles. If there's a consensus, the first editor should not revert again but instead wait for some other editor to do it. For the record, I saw that Elspamo4 reverted back as soon as the PP was lifted but I explicitly did not revert even though I disagreed, precisely because edits wars are the last thing we need. So that's how to handle it. If you revert once and your edit is undone, let somebody else take care of it. (And none of this is intended as support of Scytsari, who should drop the edit warring and try to find sources instead). Jeppiz (talk) 22:24, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
- Exactly. --NeilN talk to me 22:29, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
- @Jeppiz: You say you "disagreed" with the edit, yet you also say that Scytsari should "find sources". So, you want to say that you disagree with removing unsourced material? Vanjagenije (talk) 22:30, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
- I disagreed with action of immediately reverting and restarting an edit war, regardless of who is right or wrong. I agree with you that people for whom no sources can be found should be removed. I fail to see why this is so urgent that no time can be made for a proper discussion and provide some time for possible sourced to be found and discussed, rather than all of you reverting as fast as you can.Jeppiz (talk) 22:34, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
- @Jeppiz: You say you "disagreed" with the edit, yet you also say that Scytsari should "find sources". So, you want to say that you disagree with removing unsourced material? Vanjagenije (talk) 22:30, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
- Exactly. --NeilN talk to me 22:29, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
- The answer to that should be obvious, and applies to all articles. If there's a consensus, the first editor should not revert again but instead wait for some other editor to do it. For the record, I saw that Elspamo4 reverted back as soon as the PP was lifted but I explicitly did not revert even though I disagreed, precisely because edits wars are the last thing we need. So that's how to handle it. If you revert once and your edit is undone, let somebody else take care of it. (And none of this is intended as support of Scytsari, who should drop the edit warring and try to find sources instead). Jeppiz (talk) 22:24, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
- @NeilN: I don't really understand how would that help. Suppose we reach a consensus, and en editor edits the article according to the consensus. Now, let's suppose another editor reverts him (once). What should the first editor do? Let it be or revert and get blocked? Vanjagenije (talk) 22:16, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
- @Vanjagenije: It's best to consider this article under WP:1RR with respect to the gallery. If there is consensus, then that should ensure edit wars are short lived. --NeilN talk to me 22:12, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
@Jeppiz: I don't see what the problem is? You said there were no sources yet you reverted the content? Why is that? Why is it so hard to believe that Ferdowsi was not a Tajik considering he was born in Iran and the term Tajik wasn't born a few centuries after? I looked everywhere to see if these people really are Tajiks and no sources say so. Personally, i am starting to believe you have an agenda and you want un-sourced material to stay on this already messed up page. Did you not even read WP:3RR ? it goes against everything you are saying. Akmal94 (talk) 00:37, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
- @Akmal94: The article is fully protected for the second time in a few days, so the problem should be obvious: extensive edit warring. If the edit warriors had used the talk page to discuss calmly and await a consensus instead of Elspamo4 deleting the discussed material four times and Vanjagenije three times, we would now most likely be in a situation where the material would have been removed and the article wouldn't be blocked. I have no problem whatsoever with removing anyone for whom sources cannot be found, but I have a huge problem with the way these users have approached it. Rather than discussing to gain a consensus, they have edit warred extensively. The problem is conduct, not content.Jeppiz (talk) 08:26, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
Sources?
@Scytsari:, this article will soon become unprotected again. User:Elspamo4, User:Khestwol and User:Akmal94 have made the perfectly reasonable request that sources be provided for the debated individuals. While I believe they may have been a bit trigger happy, and edit warring is always wrong (not everybody involved has been edit warring), their request is absolutely correct. Last time the article was unprotected, the material was removed and an edit war began. So, User:Scytsari, by the time the article becomes unprotected, you've had two additional days to provide sources. If by that time no sources have been provided, I will support the removals that User:Elspamo4, User:Khestwol and User:Akmal94 have been advocating. If you think these persons should stay in the gallery, now is the time to provide sources. If not, they will be gone tomorrow in line with the clear consensus here.Jeppiz (talk) 13:48, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
- NeilN quite rightly blocked the page after the latest round of edit warring between User:Scytsari and Vanjagenije. This block meant any user opposed to the consensus version had two more days to provide sources. Earlier, I called on Scytsari to provide such sources, but no sources have been given. User:Elspamo4, User:Khestwol User:Vanjagenije and User:Akmal94 have all called for the removal of a number of individuals for whom no sources could be found. Even though I at first disapproved of that change (for procedural reasons, I thought more time could be given to find sources), at this stage I'm the first to admit that they were right all along. Plenty of time have now been given for sources to be found, and none have been provided. I did a search myself for the individuals, and it yielded nothing. I stand corrected (and I believe there's nothing wrong in being mistaken, but it would be wrong not to recognize it.) As per WP:V, as well as WP:CONSENSUS, this means we remove the individuals in question. Any reinstatement of them should be sourced, and preferably discussed first with the source presented. Jeppiz (talk) 21:51, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
Just check iranicas article on tajiks - ANY individual who spoke persian as a first language in central asia, was born there, their parents spoke the language were tajiks, tajiks are not a subset of persian, they are persian, it's like calling a german deutsch. The people here have a clear agenda at defaming and taking history away from tajiks. These people were born in central asia during a time where the term tajik was applicablw, to persian speaking parents, spoke persian as a first language, what more do you need? Persian ans tajik are interchangeable — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.206.97.1 (talk) 04:28, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
It's also not surprising that the people constantly disrupting this page are pashtun/uzbek. You can ask r/iran on reddit about this topic, you can visit iranica and should you decide to put away bias, you can use common sense, or at the very least read up on the subject even on the wiki page.
I suggest simply moving this page to persian people.
I'll give an example, avicenna was born to a farsi speaking father from balkh, now afghanistan and mother from an area in modern day tajikistan. He was born during the era of the samanids, a dynasty from the area of tajikistan, persiam speaking, central asian, tajik - as such the case for ismail samani. The only person I'd agree on removing from this page is firdausi because he was not born in central asia, but the thing is the term tajik was applicable during his time.
It takes a lot of denial of history to claim, for instance, that rumi was not a tajik, someone born to farsi speaking parents in balkh, central asia is somehow not a tajik to pashtuns and Uzbeks here. Yet at the same time they will agree he is a peraian despite the two being the exact same thing. Not to mention him writing poems where he references himself and his people as tajiks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.206.97.1 (talk) 04:39, 19 July 2015 (UTC) So aside from firdausi and ghori, the rest were ALL born in central asia, to peraian speaking parents, hence they were tajiks. Although the people disrupting it have been pashtun/uzbek, it's not fair to say so and doesn't hold in argument. I agree with what the guy above is saying - either move it or remove firdausi/ghori. If someone still disagrees I can write a lot about each individual in the image page and why they are/are not considered tajiks.
I've semi-protected the page to prevent this kind of disruption. --NeilN talk to me 04:48, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
So far the main argument for removing them is "they're not tajiks as there's no source saying they're tajiks" which is fair, but has obvious intent and bias. It'd be like saying ahmad shah massoud is not a tajik and that he's a persian, or amrullah saleh - or really, any tajik when in reality persian and tajik are terms in different languages for the same principal group. I would also agree on removing ghori as he was NOT born to persian speaking parents.
- There are sources that claim Ahmad Shah Massoud is an ethnic Tajik, I would know since I searched for sources for all these individuals in the gallery. I didn't choose to remove people at random, I removed those which I could not find reliable sources for. In the odd chance that I, Jeppiz, Akmal and anyone else who searched for sources missed something, then you can post reliable sources for each individual you think should be reinstated. Elspamo4 (talk) 05:37, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Read what I wrote, you won't find any "sources" as the term persian has overtaken the term tajik, which was on it's way out had pashtun/uzbek rulers not adopted it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scytsari (talk • contribs) 05:38, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
You can ask for an opinion on the matter on r/iran or virtually any persian/tajik site also for more anecdotal claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scytsari (talk • contribs) 05:40, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Final consensus on gallery images
In this post, I will go over each and every single one of the listed individuals aside from the modern ones. To start with, I suggest you visit iranica's article on tajiks, the ethnonym, and educate yourself on when it was used, who it applies to, and why/by who it was used. In short, tajik is a synonym to persian, a turkic word much like how persian is a greek word - the term describes those who spoke persian as a primary language and were born to parents who spoke the language. A tajik, in short is any iranic who is born to persian speaking parents and speaks persian as a primary language - primarily in central asia, though the term tajik extended to farsi speaking individuals in iran as well at several points throughout history for varying durations.
If you don't want to read all of this, my advice is that ghori and firdausi are removed from the gallery.
Rudaki: was born in central asia (modern day tajikistan), spoke persian as a primary language, was born during the era of the samanids where the concept of the turk and the tajik existed.
Ferdowsi: although living most of his life in afghanistan, as well as referring to himself/his people as tajiks, I will for the sake of appeasement say that because he was born in iran and not central asia you can say he's not by the primary definition, a tajik, although the term was definitely applicable to him during his time.
Rumi, Biruni, Jami, Avicenna, Khusraw, Khwarizmi Khujandi (guy was literally born in khujand), Samani: same argument as rudaki - these people were ALL born during a time where the term tajik was well within place and common, in central asia, spoke persian, were born to persian speaking parents
Ghori: this is someone who was definitely not a tajik, he was not born to persian speaking parents and in fact needed a translator, if anything he was from a local tribe of ghor - though it is important to mention he was a patron of persian.
It is also not clear whether or not hamassa kohistani is a tajik or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scytsari (talk • contribs) 05:32, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
- Note I have blocked Scytsari for one week for deliberately logging out and editing as an IP, after they were warned about further reversions. --NeilN talk to me 05:52, 19 July 2015 (UTC)