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Nickname in quotation marks in title
Why is it that a title formatted as First "nickname" Last like Ed "Too Tall" Jones" is discouraged by WP:NICKNAME? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prisencolin (talk • contribs)
- In my opinion, having anything in quotation should be the exception, not the rule. (1) It is not formal, and formal should be preferred, all else being near equal, because formal is well associated with doing things properly. (2) The quotation marks are being used as scare quotes, making is ambiguous if it is the accepted name or not. It means it is fuzzy space between a source-used COMMONNAME and not. Better to jump one way or the other and be unambiguous. He is Ed Jones or Too Tall Jones or Too Tall, just don't try to go two bob each way. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:57, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- Names likes Ed "Too Tall" Jones should be discouraged, with lots of use in sources required to justify such a title. Ed "Too Tall" Jones has source use to justify use of the title normally discouraged. The word "discouraged" is appropriate, it appropriately leaves open the door to justified exceptions. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:36, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- I have to disagree somewhat. This can not (and should not) be decided on a one-size-fits-all basis... it needs to be decided on a subject by subject basis, following the principle of Recognizability. It really depends on what the sources do. In some cases, the sources overwhelmingly include the nickname (in scare quotes) when discussing the subject... and when that occurs Wikipedia should follow the sources and do so as well (as that will be the most recognizable variation of the name). If the sources don't (or if they are more mixed) then neither should we. Blueboar (talk) 13:40, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
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- Per Blueboar, and per the specific example mentioned, Ed "Too Tall" Jones is almost always referred to, by reliable sources, as Ed "Too Tall" Jones. He's not commonly called Ed Jones, nor is he commonly called Too Tall Jones. He's commonly called Ed "Too Tall" Jones. Follow the sources rules all. He's common name includes both the first name Ed, the nickname in quotes, and the last name Jones. See Here for example. I did a search for Ed Jones NFL, and you can clearly see that the preponderance of reliable sources use Ed "Too Tall" Jones. --Jayron32 16:55, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- What do you do if an individual is often referred to with a nickname and their real name, but never really as "first 'alias' last". Also, is there some sort of relevant discussion in the talk page archive, I seem to have trouble finding one.--Prisencolin (talk) 01:14, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Do you mean a situation where the sources ignore the first name? for example where "Joseph Q. Smith" is commonly called "Lucky Smith"?
- In such a case, we would apply WP:COMMONNAME... the article title would be Lucky Smith (as that will be the most recognizable option). His more formal name should be mentioned prominently in the opening sentence of the lead paragraph, and perhaps linked as a redirect... but the title would follow the most recognizable option. Blueboar (talk) 14:54, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Prime example being "Weird Al" Yankovic, as that is how it is formatted on all his releases , etc. --MASEM (t) 13:45, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- What do you do if an individual is often referred to with a nickname and their real name, but never really as "first 'alias' last". Also, is there some sort of relevant discussion in the talk page archive, I seem to have trouble finding one.--Prisencolin (talk) 01:14, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Per Blueboar, and per the specific example mentioned, Ed "Too Tall" Jones is almost always referred to, by reliable sources, as Ed "Too Tall" Jones. He's not commonly called Ed Jones, nor is he commonly called Too Tall Jones. He's commonly called Ed "Too Tall" Jones. Follow the sources rules all. He's common name includes both the first name Ed, the nickname in quotes, and the last name Jones. See Here for example. I did a search for Ed Jones NFL, and you can clearly see that the preponderance of reliable sources use Ed "Too Tall" Jones. --Jayron32 16:55, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- 'The word "discouraged" is appropriate, it appropriately leaves open the door to justified exceptions' addresses the idea that 'This can not (and should not) be decided on a one-size-fits-all basis'; i.e., the wiggle-room in "discouraged" means it is not a one-size-fits-all line item. It's discouraged in part because hardly anyone is referred to this way as their WP:COMMONNAME. People will generally refer to either "Ed Jones" or "Too Tall Jones", not "Ed 'Too Tall' Jones", and when some sources do use a longer form for clarity, they do not do so consistently with regard to formatting, and may render it "Ed (Too Tall) Jones", "'Too Tall' Ed Jones", "Too Tall (Ed) Jones", etc., etc. In addition to the other reasons given. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:27, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Actually, you picked the wrong example. As a lifelong NFL fan, I can confirm that Ed "Too Tall" Jones is pretty much always called Ed "Too Tall" Jones, exactly like that. What you say in the sentence "People will generally..." may apply to many people with many nicknames. Not in this one case. Here's a modern video by Sports Illustrated. Here's a famous GEICO ad, Here's an interview from an local morning show. I can find dozens of other examples. You can occasionally find people just calling him Ed Jones or Too Tall Jones, but the preponderance of uses is as Ed "Too Tall" Jones, both speaking and written. --Jayron32 21:28, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
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- Beg to differ. A few seconds on Google demonstrates otherwise [1]. The #2 and #3 results are just Too Tall Jones without "Ed" (and without quotations marks or parentheses), and the rest of the results show various formats, just as I said they would, even when they use the long version: Ed Too Tall Jones, Ed 'Too Tall' Jones, Ed (Too Tall) Jones, Ed "Too Tall" Jones, all on the first page of results. The subject himself appears to prefer Ed Too Tall Jones without any markup, judging from his official website (though I know as a Web developer that sometimes such decisions are left up to the developer – if we ask about some typographic question of this sort and don't get an answer, we insert what we prefer and get back to work, allowing the client to correct it later). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 15:40, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Not sure if we're looking at the same results. There are several forms indeed, but the ones with Too Tall within single or double quotation marks make up around 80% of results, and even the two with just Too Tall Jones refer to him as Ed "Too Tall" Jones in the first sentence. His (?) Twitter account is titled Ed 'Too Tall' Jones, and his (?) Facebook account is Ed "Too Tall" Jones. And double quotation marks are generally Wikipedia in-house style in such cases, providing IMO an easy winner. No such user (talk) 15:59, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- I was casually looking at the credits for the 2015 film The Wedding Ringer and whoa, there's Ed "Too Tall" Jones. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 15:26, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- Not sure if we're looking at the same results. There are several forms indeed, but the ones with Too Tall within single or double quotation marks make up around 80% of results, and even the two with just Too Tall Jones refer to him as Ed "Too Tall" Jones in the first sentence. His (?) Twitter account is titled Ed 'Too Tall' Jones, and his (?) Facebook account is Ed "Too Tall" Jones. And double quotation marks are generally Wikipedia in-house style in such cases, providing IMO an easy winner. No such user (talk) 15:59, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Beg to differ. A few seconds on Google demonstrates otherwise [1]. The #2 and #3 results are just Too Tall Jones without "Ed" (and without quotations marks or parentheses), and the rest of the results show various formats, just as I said they would, even when they use the long version: Ed Too Tall Jones, Ed 'Too Tall' Jones, Ed (Too Tall) Jones, Ed "Too Tall" Jones, all on the first page of results. The subject himself appears to prefer Ed Too Tall Jones without any markup, judging from his official website (though I know as a Web developer that sometimes such decisions are left up to the developer – if we ask about some typographic question of this sort and don't get an answer, we insert what we prefer and get back to work, allowing the client to correct it later). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 15:40, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
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(undent) I added a short clarification. While I'm wary of instruction creep, I think the issue has been raised frequently enough to deserve a coverage in the guideline. For example, it was raised at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (people)#Use of quotation marks in names back in April. No such user (talk) 11:17, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed. It does come up frequently. I've suggested several times before that we need to take a programmatic, algorithmic approach to this. Basically something like this:
- If the non-legal name is a nickname that is not derived from the legal name, put it in quotation marks before the surname: Alexis Barton "Chicken-whisperer" Chen
- If it is a nickname derived from part of the legal name, put it in quotes after the modified part: Alexis "Big Ali" Barton Chen.
- If it is based on the surname, put it before the surname Alexis Barton "Chensterator" Chen.
- If it is a diminutive or abbreviation of part of the legal name, put it in parentheses after the modified part: Alexis (Alex) Barton Chen, Alexis Barton (Bart) Chen, Alexis Barton (Aybee) Chen
- If it is a pseudonynm used in place of the legal name and not used with all or part of the legal name, give it separately and without quotation marks, whether based on the name or not: Alexis Barton Chen, known professionally as DJ ABC, Alexis Barton Chen, later known as Janet Garcia-Chen.
- Do the same for someone conventionally known by their initials and surname only: Alexis Barton Chen, better known as A. B. Chen.
- Do the same for nickname constructions if they are the common name; enclose a nickname but not a simple diminutive or abbreviation in quotation marks: Alexis Barton Chen, better known as "Big Al" Chen, Alexis Barton Chen, best known as Lexi Chen.
- Give epithets (e.g. media labels for then-unknown serial killers) separately and with quotation marks: Alexis Barton Chen, labeled the "Oakland Mangler" in the press before being identified and convicted. Do not capitalize "the" or include it within the quotation marks in such constructions (it is not an integral part of the nickname, and would be dropped in constructions like Alexis B. "Oakland Mangler" Chen).
- Reverse the order and drop the quotation marks if the epithet is the common name: The Hillside Strangler is the media epithet for two men, Kenneth Bianchi and Angelo Buono, who were convicted of. [I would prefer to keep the quotation marks, but our extant article at Hillside Strangler doesn't use them, so I'm going with that for now.]
- It could be made a bit simpler but perhaps a bit more reader-annoying to drop the "put it ... after the modified part" rules, and always put it before the surname. This would often separate something like "Big Al" from the name it was derived from ("Alexis" in these examples), which could be awkward. "James Bartolomeo (Jim) McDougal" just doesn't work well. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 16:25, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
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- I think the above suggestions are about what to do with the full name in the lead sentence. The title should follow WP:common name. But shouldn't this discussion be at MOS:BLP? I started a discussion like that just yesterday at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biographies#People_commonly_known_by_nicknames and was pointed over here. Darx9url (talk) 13:22, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
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Time to follow the rules…
I move that:
- Lady Gaga be removed as redundant to the Bono example (both have a completely different name than their real one)
- Replace with "Sean Combs (not: Sean John Combs, Puff Daddy, Puffy, Diddy, or P. Diddy)" as example of when not to use fluctuating and/or exhaustive stage names
- Group by name types: shortened names, nicknames, and stage names
- Add "The United Kingdom" as example of dropping commonly used definite articles
Thoughts? DKqwerty 07:24, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose, a prior criticism was that the list contained too few women;
- Oppose, a prior criticism was that this list contained already too many WP:PSEUDONYM related examples;
- Oppose, nicknames and stagenames fall under the same WP:PSEUDONYM guidance (as if WP:NCP has nothing else...); also oppose qualifying "Bill Clinton" as a nickname
- Oppose, the short list of "common name" examples is not intended to rehash/summarize/dumb down/... subsequent guidance. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:52, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
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- Okay, so keep Lady Gaga or Madonna and dump Bono. And I don't know of any female artists with as erratic a stage name a Sean Combs. And Combs is an example of when not to use stage name/pseudonym, which is an important distinction. For Bill, the infobox for William qualifies it as a nickname. Not sure I understand your final opposition point. DKqwerty 09:02, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- Don't even know whether Sean Combs qualifies as a "common name", so shouldn't be included in this list that illustrates the "common name" principle with a few examples. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:06, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- Can be added as prose to name change? My reason for wanting to add it, again, is to clarify that when multiple names may be "common" to different people, name change guide below kicks in. DKqwerty 09:13, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- Don't even know whether Sean Combs qualifies as a "common name", so shouldn't be included in this list that illustrates the "common name" principle with a few examples. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:06, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- Okay, so keep Lady Gaga or Madonna and dump Bono. And I don't know of any female artists with as erratic a stage name a Sean Combs. And Combs is an example of when not to use stage name/pseudonym, which is an important distinction. For Bill, the infobox for William qualifies it as a nickname. Not sure I understand your final opposition point. DKqwerty 09:02, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose. This list of examples should be made shorter, not longer with titles and subtitles. People don't need an endless list of examples to understand this concept. I think a single example from each of the current categories should suffice. TheFreeloader (talk) 22:25, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Change of spelling in an Article title
Is it possible to change the Title of an Article once it has been created?
The article in question was based on the spelling of a medieval word and it now seems that as slightly different spelling is the more commonly used version, so I would like to amend the spelling of the word to reflect the more common usage.
Armond Dean (talk) 17:23, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Armond Dean: yes, by moving an article to a new title. Imzadi 1979 → 20:21, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Article title for Professor DeRose
(A yoga instructor that goes by "DeRose". The history of the article title is Master DeRose, Luis DeRose, Master DeRose, Professor DeRose, Master DeRose, and currently Professor DeRose. There appear to be no independent, reliable, English sources about him. English sources typically are pr pieces such as [2] and [3] (which brings up the issue that for the English encyclopedia, DeRose Method yoga may be more notable than the person). Since DeRose is a disambiguation page, it's unclear whether we should use an honorific (Master DeRose or Professor DeRose), his first name (Luis DeRose), or a description (DeRose (DeRose Method), DeRose (yogi), or DeRose (yoga teacher)) for the article title. Others' help would be greatly appreciated. (Discussion here. --Ronz (talk) 19:54, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Does WP:AT have a preference for WP:COMMONNAME in English language sources?
As there is a still active talk page section about this topic higher above (#Nickname in quotation marks in title); further a previous talk page section about this same topic being recently closed for a WP:FORUMSHOP-like rationale (Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games#WP:NATURAL and disambiguation for video game players); further a RfC recently held about this same topic (Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Archive 117#Naming conventions for esports/ pro video gaming people afaics without formal closure, which can be requested at WP:ANRFC); further this not being the place to discuss the article title of individual articles (Talk:Lee "Faker" Sang-hyeok and/or WP:RM is)... I'm closing this thread for a combined forum shopping and wrong venue rationale. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:14, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Korean League of Legends player Lee "Faker" Sang-hyeok is typically referred to as his "real" name (Lee Sang-hyeok/이상혁) in Korean language sources, but in Western media he is usually referred to as his gamer name, "Faker". Since WP:NICKNAME guidelines discourage the use of the current format with the nickname in quotation marks, my question is what should the article title be?--Prisencolin (talk) 00:26, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.