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Pinging [[User:DannyH (WMF)|DannyH (WMF)]] and/or [[User:Quiddity (WMF)|Quiddity (WMF)]], as the WMF staff listed as handling this page. Either a comment or action on Doc's request would be great. Thanx. [[User:Alsee|Alsee]] ([[User talk:Alsee|talk]]) 18:51, 28 August 2015 (UTC) |
Pinging [[User:DannyH (WMF)|DannyH (WMF)]] and/or [[User:Quiddity (WMF)|Quiddity (WMF)]], as the WMF staff listed as handling this page. Either a comment or action on Doc's request would be great. Thanx. [[User:Alsee|Alsee]] ([[User talk:Alsee|talk]]) 18:51, 28 August 2015 (UTC) |
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:{{Done}}. :) [[User:Quiddity (WMF)|Quiddity (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Quiddity (WMF)|talk]]) 21:42, 1 September 2015 (UTC) |
:{{Done}}. :) [[User:Quiddity (WMF)|Quiddity (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Quiddity (WMF)|talk]]) 21:42, 1 September 2015 (UTC) |
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== Priorities for the Collaboration (Flow) team == |
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Hi everyone, here's a copy of the message from Dannyh: |
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For a while now, the Collaboration team has been working on Flow, the structured discussion system. I want to let you know about some changes in that long-term plan. |
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While initial announcements about Flow said that it would be a universal replacement for talk pages, the features that were ultimately built into Flow were specifically forum-style group discussion tools. But article and project talk pages are used for a number of important and complex processes that those tools aren't able to handle, making Flow unsuitable for deployment on those kinds of pages. |
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To better address the needs of our core contributors, we're now focusing our strategy on the curation, collaboration, and admin processes that take place on a variety of pages. Many of these processes use complex workarounds -- templates, categories, transclusions, and lots of instructions -- that turn blank wikitext talk pages into structured workflows. There are gadgets and user scripts on the larger wikis to help with some of these workflows, but these tools aren't standardized or universally available. |
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As these workflows grow in complexity, they become more difficult for the next generation of editors to learn and use. This has increased the workload on the people who maintain those systems today. Complex workflows are also difficult to adapt to other languages, because a wiki with thousands of articles may not need the kind of complexity that comes with managing a wiki with millions of articles. We've talked about this kind of structured workflow support at Wikimania, in user research sessions, and on wikis. It's an important area that needs a lot of discussion, exploration, and work. |
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Starting in October, Flow will not be in active development, as we shift the team's focus to these other priorities. We'll be helping core contributors reduce the stress of an ever-growing workload, and helping the next generation of contributors participate in those processes. Further development on these projects will be driven by the needs expressed by wiki communities. |
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Flow will be maintained and supported, and communities that are excited about Flow discussions will be able to use it. There are places where the discussion features are working well, with communities that are enthusiastic about them: on user talk pages, help pages, and forum/village pump-style discussion spaces. By the end of September, we'll have an opt-in Beta feature available to communities that want it, allowing users to enable Flow on their own user talk pages. |
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I'm sure people will want to know more about these projects, and we're looking forward to those conversations. We'll be reaching out for lots of input and feedback over the coming months. |
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On behalf of the Collaboration team, [[User:Quiddity (WMF)|Quiddity (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Quiddity (WMF)|talk]]) 22:23, 1 September 2015 (UTC) |
Revision as of 22:23, 1 September 2015
Sections older than 15 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Using Flow on this page
Related to the comments above and elsewhere, this page will have Flow enabled on Wednesday (PDT afternoon). It will follow the usual rollout process, with the current contents being archived to the latest subpage archive, and the current header templates being copied across. I'll also update the header templates once Flow is enabled. Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 08:11, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Quiddity (WMF): May I suggest that immediately after starting the Flow page, the first topic is "for older discussion, please see the archives" with appropriate link - This way, a person scrolling through the page, seeing progressively older posts, would get a link to the pre-Flow stuff at the end of their scrolling. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 13:06, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Oiyarbepsy: Will do, thanks for the reminder. The task to make that idea an automated component of converting a page is phab:T87452 (see the last mockup in particular). Feedback there, welcome. :) Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 17:43, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
@Quiddity (WMF): What?!?! After many extensive discussions of Flow on the Executive Director's talk page she told us Flow was on hold and agreed with our objections.
Last month I double-checked and asked her to clarify the situation:
Hi, we have paused any but requested rollouts of Flow, but we have not resolved yet how the mission might be changed -- hence the page has not changed yet. To the guest above: great to hear your interest in helping us build wikis. You can find more info here (if you have not done so already): https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/How_to_become_a_MediaWiki_hacker LilaTretikov (WMF) (talk) 00:21, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
I am not aware of the Community establishing a Consensus to request Flow here. Alsee (talk) 09:06, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- Alsee, that's a good point -- we should have asked before saying we were going to change this page. I'm sorry about that.
- The reason why we want to enable Flow on this page is that there have been a lot of discussions here -- like "New indentation & threading model" and "Talk: Phineas Gage" above, where it sounds like people are guessing about how Flow works, especially when it comes to recent updates.
- Flow is currently in active development -- we're adding important features, and fixing a lot of old problems. So if we're talking to people who haven't looked at a Flow page since six months ago, it's hard to catch people up to the way that it works now. Suggesting that people go and try out a separate test page isn't the same thing as actually using the current feature.
- There are some important use cases that Flow doesn't handle yet, like multi-editable collaboration space, and most workflows. But this page is just used for discussions between groups of people, and Flow handles that use case pretty well. I think the easiest and most efficient way to show everyone the current state of development is to actually use it on the page where people are interested in talking about Flow.
- What do you think? DannyH (WMF) (talk) 19:03, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- There's enough test pages for this facebookisation gadget, that only impersonates simple forum software, but doesn't help creating an encyclopaedia, There's absolutely no need to put it anywhere else before it's able to do more than just handle simple blahblah. Or ask for a community consensus, this is not WMF property, you are just the servants of the community. ♫ Sänger - Talk - superputsch must go 19:52, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- Actually, Wikipedia pages are WMF property, and the DannyH is an employee of the WMF, not a servant of the community. -- Ypnypn (talk) 20:48, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- The WMF exists to facilitate the community which creates Wikipedia (and other projects). In any case @DannyH (WMF):, absolutely not. It has not been agreed upon, like Lila said would be necessary, and it's really off the mark for a WMF employee to casually decide to do something they shouldn't be doing without even explaining themselves or giving reasonable notice for a change which would affect an important community discussion space. Frankly, it's the WMF's fault that it's failing at explaining its engineering processes to the community, and in my opinion you are not welcome to force a half-baked and wholly-dubious "feature" on us with the excuse that you are so failing. BethNaught (talk) 21:32, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- Also,
There are some important use cases that Flow doesn't handle yet, like... most workflows.
-- That's more than some. 163.1.120.19 (talk) 21:38, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- Thanx DannyH (WMF). The large majority of people using this page (aside from WMF staff) are objecting to Flow. I don't think it would be a good idea to Force people to use Flow in order explain why they don't want to use Flow. It can come across as a very in-your-face disregard of (two megabyte archive filled with) objections.
- The main page has a link to Wikipedia talk:Flow/Developer test page, how about adding a section to the top of this page with the link?
- Regarding the latest version of Flow, maybe you can sell it as a lovely chatboard for other sites. I don't see further development being widely deployed here without a CNN-level shitstorm. Maybe I'm wrong.... you really should post an RfC at village pump asking if the project is going in a viable direction. Get some valuable input from the general community that aren't lurking this page. Alsee (talk) 21:52, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
Using Flow on this page is a great way to ensure that people who refuse to use Flow pages (such as myself) will be excluded. I already saw some notification about a Flow survey thingie on MediaWiki and didn't participate in that either for the same reason. As per the above, we don't want this here and we have enough pages to test it on. ekips39❦talk 23:30, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Danny and Quiddity, I'd like to add my name to those asking that you not activate Flow on this page. When I last checked Flow I found it harder to follow a conversation, but I would like to be able to follow this one. Also, my understanding of Lila's input about this is that nothing would be rushed or forced on the community. Now suddenly to be told that discussion about the very medium editors object to will be held in that medium doesn't seem consistent with that assurance. Sarah (SV) (talk) 00:58, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
- Thirded. I've been testing it out, and I couldn't figure out an indent like the one used here for a while. Replying individually to the bottom post just added another "main" post, which was confusing. I'd prefer discussing Flow without having to spend time figuring out exactly how to format what I want to say. Origamiteⓣⓒ 01:31, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
- That's quite a rich statement considering how much thought we are forced to put into formatting wikitalk. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 02:12, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
- Colons and asterisks don't take much thought. Origamite's issues with Flow sound more complicated than anything one would encounter on talk pages. The raw code we use now makes it easier to see exactly what one is doing. ekips39❦talk 05:29, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
- Also, while for wikitalk we have to learn a very little code, it's stupid to force a new system on us which we have to relearn but which will inhibit functionality. BethNaught (talk) 07:23, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
- I just looked at Wikipedia talk:Flow/Developer test page. I'm not sure whether it's been six months since I last checked in here, but that page looked basically the same as I recall it did the last time I checked. So, what's new vs. six months ago. What new features and "use cases" should we be testing out? Wbm1058 (talk) 22:40, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Wbm1058: The "Browse topics" table of content and the new hierarchical grouping of out-of-order replies have been added recently, as well as the option to use the visual editor (that can be exchanged with wikitext on the fly without loosing content). Diego (talk) 10:16, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
- I see. I'm not sure how helpful these features are. As it seems there is no archiving to separate pages, if I want to find anything that's very old, I need to scroll through spinning gears for an hour, rather than just go directly to the oldest archive. Seems the ability to refactor content doesn't exist on Flow pages. Wbm1058 (talk) 12:00, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
- I think they're adding features to solve both those problems in the next iteration. The roadmap for april-june lists "Deleting and moving Flow boards" and "Search on a Flow board" as new features; the later should provide the same functionality as the "search archives" box in current talk pages (at least if they include pagination to reach oldest threads, as I've been insisting). Diego (talk) 12:34, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Wbm1058: The "Browse topics" table of content and the new hierarchical grouping of out-of-order replies have been added recently, as well as the option to use the visual editor (that can be exchanged with wikitext on the fly without loosing content). Diego (talk) 10:16, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
- Per Sarah, it would be perverse to force discussion of something to which many are opposed into using that very thing. Bizarre, even. To do so without consensus flies in the face of the "new way forward" which Lila has said she is spearheading, central to which is community consultation and consensus. Not encouraging at all. Sad face. Begoon talk 23:31, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
- No. People aren't interested in being alpha testers for a feature they don't particularly want. When you think it ready for global deployment let us know and we will destruction test it. Until then leave it on the test wikis where those who want to know its current state can find it.©Geni (talk) 18:35, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
- Why are we using Flow anywhere on any WMF project? The software is a piece of unmitigated garbage that not a single community has asked for, or wants. The project should be immediately terminated and those involved with its development reassigned or let go. Carrite (talk) 17:43, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Feedback heard, loud and clear. I mistakenly read the earlier thread as being open to the possibility of testing it here; I'll make sure to ask next time, per the standard Flow rollout process. For what it's worth, many other wikis are happily testing Flow, and requesting specific features and tweaks in order to deploy it to more pages at their wikis, e.g. The Catalan Wikipedia has Flow at all their Village Pumps now, and is discussing where else they'd like to try it next; and the French Wikipedia has been using Flow at a sub-page of their Newcomers Help Desk for a few months, and the devs are preparing the remaining features necessary to migrate Frwiki's main Newcomers Help Desk over to Flow. There are test pages at, and ongoing discussions with, the Portuguese, Hebrew, Russian, Chinese, Punjabi, and Telugu Wikipedias. Development is going steadily towards the use-cases that editors ask for, as well as further improvements of the backend and the feeds. Anyway, thanks to the folk who offered constructive feedback, and sorry again that I let my enthusiasm overwhelm my usual caution, before posting the original plan. Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 19:43, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
- Well, we're testing it out too on a few pages. It's just that there appears to be a consensus not to have it here and now. For what it's worth, Flow is growing on me as I use it on the developer's test page; however, I cannot imagine using it in several places, including a User talk page (which can often be more templates than discussion). I feel that the main problem is that there is a fundamental incompatibility between simplifying the software for newcomers to make it somewhat more like a forum and the flexibility of current wikicode; and we prefer the wikicode option on this page. Origamiteⓣⓒ 21:04, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
Renaming issue?
When a thread on the Developer test page had its name changed, the notification was incorrect. As can be seen here, it showed the name which it was changed to twice, instead of the name which was changed from and the name which it was changed to once each. Origamiteⓣⓒ 15:12, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
- That bug is tracked at phab:T71883. (sorry for the delayed reply, thanks for the demonstrative screenshot :) Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 21:20, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
Watching?
Is there any way to watchlist an entire page with Flow instead of just a single topic? I tried watchlisting Wikipedia_talk:Flow/Test_page and it only adds a single topic, not the whole page. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:16, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
- It's on my watchlist as I get notified every time a new topic is created. Looking at my raw watchlist I see Wikipedia:Flow/Developer test page on there which is probably what’s doing it (as that's the page it's a talk page of).--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 20:23, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
- Yes seems there’s no way to be notified of every change on a page. You could visit it every time you see a new topic is added and watch that topic. I'm sure something will be added to let you automate this, it's an obvious additional way to watch a Flow page on top of the existing options.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 21:10, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
- @JohnBlackburne: Exactly that, at a minimum. There are some notes and napkin-sketches in a few team email threads, about possibilities beyond that minimum, that they'll hopefully get onwiki (or phabricator) soon. I'm pushing for Watching to take as much complexity (future growth) as possible into account (i.e. many of the thoughts in the age-old mw:watchlist wishlist), but that will obviously have to be tempered by practicality. (e.g. At the extreme end of the spectrum: I'd love a way to get emailed for changes on some pages (or topics), and echo-notifications for others, and just notifications for new-topic-creations at others, and to only watch the main/project page (not the talkpage) on still others, and some only for a limited time, and and and ... ; all along with various options for what appears in the watchlist itself. But, that kind of power would add a ton of columns to various databases, and a ton of complexity to coding/testing/maintenance, and quite a bit of complexity to the UI... So they're researching what is feasible/realistic). More details on all that, and a wide invite to discussion, when I/they know more. Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 23:56, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
For Flow pages, there are two sets of stars. The star up next to the new topic button (in the usual location) will watch the entire page. The stars near the topic headings will watch only that topic. I have the entire page watched and new topics appear on my watchlist. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 12:52, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
- Just what I said: New topics appear, but no answers to not-watched topics. So it's not a "watch the entire page"-star, just some subset of changes to the page: a) changes to watched topics and b) new topics. Grüße vom Sänger ♫ (talk) 15:00, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
I've come across this feature for the first time today. I don't like the fact that new topics now go to the top of the page. Even worse that this, I especially don't like automatic watching of a post. I posted a courtesy notice to WT:HANTS re an AfD of an article that falls under their remit. As such, there is no need for editors to reply. There is even less need for me to be notified that they have replied. The purpose of notifying the AfD was to encourage editors to a) comment, and b) improve the article to demonstrate that it should be kept - if that was how they felt. My watchlist is confined to a very few quality articles that I monitor to ensure the remain quality, and a very, very few editors that I keep an eye on, mostly vandals although I do occasionally mentor editors at a distance and watchlist their talk pages for this purpose.Mjroots (talk) 07:54, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- Not a huge deal for me, but I would also prefer that topics one has participated in are not watched by default. Possibly there could be some intuitive checkbox you can check before posting if you want to watch the topic, but IMO it should default to off. The watchlist simply becomes too noisy otherwise.--Anders Feder (talk) 07:59, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
I can't see the board right now
The page header is completely covering the discussions, except a tiny sliver on the left. I can click in the text boxes, but everything else is hidden under the header, including the all-important post button. Upon loading the page, for a split second it shows the header on the right of the discussion board, but it almost instantly expands to cover everything up.
I'm using Chrome on Win8. I have the user script for adjusting the width of the discussion board area. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 14:24, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- Also, the close box to the right side of the header replaces the header that's covering up everything with a huge blank gray box covering up everything. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 14:25, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- That is odd. It's not broken for me but the header now goes to the side when the window is wide enough but in doing so is reserving space all the way down the page, i.e. the grey box it's in is infinitely tall. You can hide it, perhaps a bit too well as the hidden box looks more like a design feature than anything containing content. Yes there's an icon but it's unclear what it does. The other odd thing is in that mode, with it collapsed or not, the page's content width isn't fixed but grows to fill the space. I like that, but I think it contradicts some of the design guidelines Flow is following.
- Maybe your user script is causing problems and clashing with the new behaviour? Try disabling it and if it doesn't work try clearing your cache.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 14:59, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Oiyarbepsy: Yes, I think your user script may be interacting badly with the new side rail feature. We've moved the header content to the side rail, and you can collapse the side rail to see the page at (almost) full-width. You probably don't need that user script anymore, because you can adjust the width of the discussions with your browser and the side rail.
- @JohnBlackburne: The design guideline has changed -- it was too restrictive, and there's value in letting people choose the width that they want. I'm glad you like the new change. :) DannyH (WMF) (talk) 01:10, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- It's good that it’s not set in stone, but a bit early still to see how it will all work. Far too many rough edges. After the above I commented with a few more thoughts on the test page itself.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 01:56, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- @JohnBlackburne: The design guideline has changed -- it was too restrictive, and there's value in letting people choose the width that they want. I'm glad you like the new change. :) DannyH (WMF) (talk) 01:10, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Flow page header edits
I just tried to correct a minor misprint ("notofication") on the head of Wikipedia talk:Flow/Developer test page (twice). This didn't work. There was no warning or reservation; I got up an edit box, did the edit, and seemingly saved it; but it doesn't take. There seems to be a bug, either in some inbuilt restriction of the right to edit not being displayed, or in the saving process.
If indeed the possibilities to edit the page header is to be restricted (e. g. to Flow developers or to enwiki administrators) then there should be a warning about this, or at least not seem to be edit possibilities. Best, JoergenB (talk) 19:55, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
- My edit seems to have gone through, so probably a bug rather than an intentional restriction.--Anders Feder (talk) 20:24, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
- There's a rare bug about this (not showing changes, until the page is manually refreshed), but it hasn't been possible to consistently reproduce outside of the developer's local testing environment. I'll reopen phab:T106459. Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 21:53, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Wording
Should this
Flow will eventually replace the current Wikipedia talk page system
be changed to this?
Flow may eventually replace the current Wikipedia talk page system
Flow should need to get community consensus before it is implemented and should not be forced onto the community IMO. I hope the wording in this document will reflect this. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:39, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Doc James: I hope you understand why many of us have no confidence in that, despite our respect for you. Take for example the views of Jan-Bart, the chair of the board. BethNaught (talk) 20:37, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- I hope you also understand that many of us do not share the view that an alienating 1990s user interface is crucial to Wikipedia's success.--Anders Feder (talk) 20:41, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think that Doc James was stating explicitly support for the current way of operating talk pages, just noting the need for community consensus for its implementation. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 20:47, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- I didn't say he did. I was just making sure we agree that "community consensus" does not equate "the consensus among the group of users who complain about any and all improvements".--Anders Feder (talk) 22:26, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Anders Feder: If that is the consensus view of the community I for one will accept it. The point is that the WMF must not be allowed to steamroller over us in order to implement Flow. BethNaught (talk) 20:48, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- We are seeing a lot of change on the board. We have three new boardmembers including myself that started in July. Jan-Bart and Stu step down the end of this year and thus we will have two more new board members soon.
- The only way we are going to "succeed" is by the community and the WMF working together. And the only way we can work together is as equals. Yes democracy is messy and slow but no one has ever found a better way to make decisiosn.
- We sort of currently have a reader oriented format of Wikipedia (called mobile) and a editor oriented format of Wikipedia (called desktop). Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:53, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think that Doc James was stating explicitly support for the current way of operating talk pages, just noting the need for community consensus for its implementation. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 20:47, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Pinging DannyH (WMF) and/or Quiddity (WMF), as the WMF staff listed as handling this page. Either a comment or action on Doc's request would be great. Thanx. Alsee (talk) 18:51, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
- Done. :) Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 21:42, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Priorities for the Collaboration (Flow) team
Hi everyone, here's a copy of the message from Dannyh:
For a while now, the Collaboration team has been working on Flow, the structured discussion system. I want to let you know about some changes in that long-term plan.
While initial announcements about Flow said that it would be a universal replacement for talk pages, the features that were ultimately built into Flow were specifically forum-style group discussion tools. But article and project talk pages are used for a number of important and complex processes that those tools aren't able to handle, making Flow unsuitable for deployment on those kinds of pages.
To better address the needs of our core contributors, we're now focusing our strategy on the curation, collaboration, and admin processes that take place on a variety of pages. Many of these processes use complex workarounds -- templates, categories, transclusions, and lots of instructions -- that turn blank wikitext talk pages into structured workflows. There are gadgets and user scripts on the larger wikis to help with some of these workflows, but these tools aren't standardized or universally available.
As these workflows grow in complexity, they become more difficult for the next generation of editors to learn and use. This has increased the workload on the people who maintain those systems today. Complex workflows are also difficult to adapt to other languages, because a wiki with thousands of articles may not need the kind of complexity that comes with managing a wiki with millions of articles. We've talked about this kind of structured workflow support at Wikimania, in user research sessions, and on wikis. It's an important area that needs a lot of discussion, exploration, and work.
Starting in October, Flow will not be in active development, as we shift the team's focus to these other priorities. We'll be helping core contributors reduce the stress of an ever-growing workload, and helping the next generation of contributors participate in those processes. Further development on these projects will be driven by the needs expressed by wiki communities.
Flow will be maintained and supported, and communities that are excited about Flow discussions will be able to use it. There are places where the discussion features are working well, with communities that are enthusiastic about them: on user talk pages, help pages, and forum/village pump-style discussion spaces. By the end of September, we'll have an opt-in Beta feature available to communities that want it, allowing users to enable Flow on their own user talk pages.
I'm sure people will want to know more about these projects, and we're looking forward to those conversations. We'll be reaching out for lots of input and feedback over the coming months.
On behalf of the Collaboration team, Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 22:23, 1 September 2015 (UTC)