BLP issues summary |
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WikiProject Policy and Guidelines | |||||||||||
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Contents
- 1 How to classify condemned famous people as criminals witouth being tagged for "possible vandalism"
- 2 Age of lead images
- 3 Known mainly by their works
- 4 Does BLP apply to fictional characters ?
- 5 Does BLP apply to editors?
- 6 Adding media commentary to BLPs of politicians
- 7 Application to people with unknown DOBs
- 8 How do we judge how actor articles should be rated?
- 9 2014 celebrity photo hack information at the Jennifer Lawrence article
- 10 Seeking clarification
How to classify condemned famous people as criminals witouth being tagged for "possible vandalism"
Tagged "possible BLP issue or vandalism" for adding a well sourced criminal sentence of Domingo Cavallo for embezzlement. Sources: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/02/world/americas/carlos-menem-ex-president-of-argentina-is-sentenced-in-embezzlement.html
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References
- Hi IP Editor, I would encourage you to not be overly worried about the edit being tagged. It doesn't mean anything more than another editor is likely to have a look at the edit. It's just a little bit of a protection against the inclusion of poorly sourced information about living persons. If the information is well-sourced, there should be no reason for the edit to be reverted or undone. Hope this helps, please feel free to ask any follow up questions.
Age of lead images
I was wondering if there is any recommendation of what lead image should be used in bio articles (as in old ones or newer ones if available). There is no consistency in the age of images used. Some have old images and some have modern ones. For example William Shatner has an old image for long ago as one of his characters... but...Leonard Nimoy is more contemporary out of character. For dead people should we use the most contemporary image or one from there famous days eg. Elizabeth Taylor. The fact Barbra Streisand is so famous and somewhat still working should we have an image so old...should it be more like Betty White? What about famous child actors like Jerry Mathers or Macaulay Culkin. What is best for our readers and should we make any recommendations one way or the other here....I am aware that during GA and FA reviews more recent photos are preferred...but we dont give and guidance on this here....should we ..what do people think?. -- Moxy (talk) 20:14, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- The current picture at William Shatner would be appropriate to an article about Captain Kirk, a fictional character. It's not appropriate to an article about an actual, living, real person. The point of the picture is to identify the subject and show what he actually looks like. So, yes, we should be using up-to-date photos. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 20:57, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
Known mainly by their works
Can a BLP can be based only on sources that discuss the subject's works but do not say much about their personal life? Little may be known about an individual such as Satoshi Nakamoto, but their works may be notable. We could name an article "Works of Fred Smith", but this seems clumsy if there is no article on "Fred Smith". On the other hand, if a person conceals most detail of their private identity, perhaps Wikipedia should not create an article on them even if their works are notable. Should we add a statement that says one of
- A: Works are enough: If a person is notable for their works, an article may be appropriate even if the sources give few details about their private life.
- B: Personal details needed: An article on a living person must have sources that provide significant information about the person other than their works.
The wording could be tweaked. Not sure where it would be inserted. Thoughts? Aymatth2 (talk) 00:49, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- In some circumstances, works will be enough, even where the subject conceals most details of their private identity; (see: Banksy). Am not convinced that there is a need to explicitly mention this in _this_ policy. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 05:13, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
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- I have seen it come up in AfD discussions, where sources discuss an author's work in depth, but do not say much about their personal life. I started an article a few weeks ago on a (dead) French architect. He had done some major work, but all I could find about the person was year of birth, teacher at the École des Beaux-Arts, year of graduation and year of death. That article would have been vulnerable tot the "not discussed in depth as a person" criticism if he had been alive. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:09, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Works are enough. That's all we have for many notable academics. In any case, we can often get primary sources for what minimal biographic data we need. Hobit (talk) 22:00, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
Does BLP apply to fictional characters ?
Normally I would never even dream of asking this, but another editor deleted something on an article devoted to a fictional character saying that it violated BLP. This blew my mind, but I thought I'd double check to make sure there wasn't some obscure Wikipedia policy that implies this somewhere. Does it? __209.179.0.121 (talk) 21:22, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- BLP obviously does not apply to fictional characters per se. However, I can conjure up in my mind some unusual circumstances in which something said about a fictional character could reflect on an actual living person (e.g. the author or creator of the character, or someone it's widely understood that the protagonist of a roman a clef was based upon). Therefore, some context could be helpful here in providing more than a generic answer. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:25, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
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- Sorry, I forgot to mention that this wasn't a case of the character being intermingled with the actor. (If someone claimed that the actor liked to molest children just like the character he plays, then that obviously would be unacceptable.) I'm beginning to think that the editor in question somehow forgot the article was about the character, not the actor. Thanks. __209.179.0.121 (talk) 00:18, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
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- Hey IP, can I ask what this article is called? I would love to see this in-action rather than a generic "cover-all/most-bases" question. Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 05:57, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
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- Agreed; more details would be helpful. Concurring with NYB, the obvious answer is fictional characters are not living persons; but it may be that the redaction was to remove unsourced contentious information which was not about the character, but about an associated person. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 06:24, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
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- Sometimes it is worth asking people why they did something and even to remove BLP tags from articles that are not BLPs. Australian State Coach is not the only anomaly in our BLP tagging. ϢereSpielChequers 09:21, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Does BLP apply to editors?
This is not about an editor who has an article or is otherwise notable, and I'm not talking about mere opinions, insults, or other unfavorable comments about an editor, but about provable (using diffs) and falsifiable lies, which are an especially egregious type of personal attack. Do such editors have recourse to getting that information corrected or removed? The perpetrator should also be forced to correct their behavior and sanctioned.
As revenge/self defense, an editor has created a very specific and detailed false narrative about me. After I had documented, using diffs, their disruptive and deceptive editing and commenting practices, they refused to correct them, but instead made the exact same, very specific, accusations against me, without any evidence. When I approached them on their talk page and asked for evidence to back up their false claims, they refused to provide any evidence, and refused to retract the claims. Generally, when a (challenged) claim is made, the claimant has the burden of proof to prove their claim, using evidence. If they cannot do so, they must retract the claim.
Those claims still exist in full view, which poisons the well against me. The most valuable currency an editor has here is their reputation, so I don't take this lightly, and I'd like to get this situation resolved.
I'm sure this is a perennial question, so please point me in the right direction for more information. I can't find anywhere in the BLP policy that it applies to editors, who are also living persons. While I don't think this is the right place to resolve this dispute (we can continue this somewhere else), the BLP policy should specifically include wording that applies BLP protection to editors. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:22, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- WP:NPA is the policy; if a personal request to remove/redact/stop the behavior is not pursued by the offending party, following discussion should be at WP:ANI. --Izno (talk) 16:31, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, I understand that angle, and I did state that I knew this was not "the right place to resolve this dispute." I'm not interested in dealing with the dispute here.
- The reason I brought this here is to see if BLP applies to editors. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:44, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- NPA is the same concept as BLP applied to editors. The question you're asking is akin to asking whether humans hear color, because BLP is only about article content. --Izno (talk) 16:56, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- No, BLP applies everywhere at Wikipedia. No place is excepted. -- BullRangifer (talk) 17:08, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- BLP applies everywhere, as it relates to article content either in mainspace or in talk page discussions about article content. Disputes between editors in which one side make abusive comments is covered under WP:NPA. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:12, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- The intent of BLP is to protect living people from suffering real-world negative effects of material posted on Wikipedia that violates the BLP policy. If an editor's on-wiki identity is so closely connected to their real-world identity that they are at risk of those real-life consequences, then BLP applies to them. If their identity is pseudonymous and not associated with a known real-world identity, then BLP is inapplicable, though NPA and other behavioral policies certainly may still apply. alanyst 17:28, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- BLP applies everywhere, as it relates to article content either in mainspace or in talk page discussions about article content. Disputes between editors in which one side make abusive comments is covered under WP:NPA. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:12, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- No, BLP applies everywhere at Wikipedia. No place is excepted. -- BullRangifer (talk) 17:08, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- NPA is the same concept as BLP applied to editors. The question you're asking is akin to asking whether humans hear color, because BLP is only about article content. --Izno (talk) 16:56, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
Okay, I get the picture. My question is getting answered, but that means we need to address this in the BLP policy, because it has been my understanding (until a doubt formed very recently) that BLP applied to all living persons, and, although it usually applies mostly to subjects of our articles, it also applied to everyone else, including editors. My understanding was based on the bolded content:
- "This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages." (bold added)
The bolded words obviously apply to other people than the subjects of articles, so I interpreted BLP as applying to material written anywhere on the Wikipedia website about any and all living persons on earth. That makes sense, because libel is serious business. Even if editors must not make legal threats against each other, actual libel does occur here during discussions, and it shouldn't happen. Such lies must be removed.
The comments in this thread indicate that my interpretation (about any and all living persons on earth) is apparently not accurate (so the bolded wording should be revised). Lies and other forms of libel made against editors is allowed under BLP, unless they are known persons. Either we are talking about sloppy wording leading to misunderstandings, or we're talking about a rather major change of BLP policy, because a revision of that wording likely affects other wordings.
It's one thing to be clear about to whom BLP applies, but a disclaimer, detailing to whom it does not apply, would be useful. So, to use this discussion constructively, let's get some wording worked out for inclusion here. Here's a start, based on some of the comments here. Feel free to improve it. Note I have used an existing section ("Applicability...."):
=== Editors ===
The BLP policy may or may not apply to editors:
If an editor's on-wiki identity is so closely connected to their real-world identity that they are at risk of suffering real-world negative consequences from the type of material posted on Wikipedia that violates the BLP policy, then BLP applies to them. This does not refer to the types of opinions, insults, or other unfavorable comments made during editorial disputes, but to provable (using diffs and/or citations) and falsifiable lies which can damage the editor's reputation or otherwise harm them, just as with other subjects to whom BLP applies.
The claimant has the burden of proof to prove their claim, using evidence. If they cannot do so, they must retract the claim. If the claimant refuses to provide any evidence to back up their (false) claim, and refuses to retract the claim, they will lose their editing privileges, and the false claim will be removed.
If an editor's identity is pseudonymous and not associated with a known real-world identity, then BLP is inapplicable. Disputes between editors in which one side makes abusive, deceptive, and even libelous comments about the other is covered by NPA and other behavioral policies.
BTW, has the subject of this thread ever been addressed before? No one has pointed to such a discussion yet. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:46, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- It has come up before but it would take trawls through the archives to find it. Suffice to say, if you are not identifiable through your username (or otherwise) then you are not a living person for most purposes of BLP. Its largely redundant anyway, because anything that wouldnt be allowed by BLP wouldnt be allowed by the various other policies regarding interactions with editors.
- The main problem with putting specific 'exclusions' in policies is that it tends to favour the bad hats. They can point to X policy and say 'aha! that is excluded!' when performing what is clearly an uncivil/uncollegial action. Its better to have 'this is not an exhaustive list...' etc and leave it open ended and subject to community interpretation on the fly. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:01, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
BLP applies everywhere, yes. GiantSnowman 12:50, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, but apparently not to everyone. -- BullRangifer (talk) 15:43, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
To comment on @alanyst's point above "If their identity is pseudonymous and not associated with a known real-world identity, then BLP is inapplicable, though NPA and other behavioral policies certainly may still apply." The problem is that there are groups of people (who may or may not be WP editors) that scrutinize the actions of WP editors and in doing so make the connection between the editor and their real life identity, regardless of whether the editor was careful or not, and then publish it to the Internet at large (a version of doxxing). It is very hard to argue that a pseudonymous handle is perfect protection from the public connection to a real world identity. And then so if you have a second editor making what would otherwise be BLP-violating claims at this editor by their pseudonymous handle, you cannot presume the real-world identity is unaffected. We should assume that any BLP-style language directed at an editor by an editor is a personal attack and required handling as discussed. Or another way to put it is that NPA should be seen as BLP w.r.t. WP editors in any space outside of main article space. --MASEM (t) 15:53, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Masem: That's a good point, which I contemplated when I wrote what you quoted about "not associated with a known real-world identity". That association may come about voluntarily, or be the result of unwelcome doxxing of the type you describe. If that has happened, then BLP applies; but I'm not sure it should be the assumed default. If somebody here were to say "Alanyst is a mealy-mouthed moron incapable of coherent thought" it would surely be a personal attack (though I'd probably laugh it off), but I wouldn't be harmed in real life. Even if I was later doxxed it would be unlikely to be high-profile enough to cause me real-world harm. But it could happen in some cases for people at more risk of damage to their reputation than I; so I'd suggest the applicability of BLP to pseudonym-directed personal attacks ought to be judged on a case-by-case basis and not be universally assumed. alanyst 16:13, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- I would hope it makes sense to assume the default case that any psuedonymous handle on WP can be tied to a real world identity, for purposes of determining a BLP/NPA violation (particularly if it is rather controversial claim, like trying to out an editor's sexual identity). I also do agree that there's the silly name calling of your example that would obviously fail BLP (without the appropriate sourcing) if it were on mainspace about a person but would be seen as simply a breach of incivility if about an editor. We do have to make a distinction between clearly libelous material directed towards an editor by another editor that can harm an individual even if their real world identity is meant to be masked by the WP editor handle (the same type of material we'd nix in an instant on a biography page), and catcalling that can occur in heated discussions which should be dealt with in other manners. --MASEM (t) 16:27, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
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- Masem, I agree. The idea of "put up or shut up" applies to anyone who maliciously attacks a living person, and editors are living persons. They should not feel less protection from such attacks. Libel is still libel, even if editors are not allowed to threaten legal action against another editor. If an editor makes provably false claims about another editor (such as the very specific and totally false narrative created about me), they must prove their claim or retract it, just as required by BLP, but not by NPA.
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- NPA does not require or allow immediate deletion by anyone, as does BLP. My attempts to delete the content under BLP were reverted, so I have no protection. Before that I thought BLP applied to all living persons. Currently I would have to go through a slow and difficult NPA dispute resolution process to get these specific lies deleted. That's wrong. It should be possible for me to privately approach an admin, present the evidence, get it blanked, and the perpetrator censured for their actions. They refuse to provide evidence or to remove the lies.
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- Again, I'm not referring to ordinary personal attacks, where people call one a jerk or asshole. That simply reflects poorly on the perpetrator. I'm talking about things that undermine and destroy the reputation of a fellow editor. Wikipedia editing is a real world activity, and this place is public. Our reputation here is important to us, even if it only were to be something known within this editorial community. Damaging that reputation damages our lives and our abilities to work effectively here. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:57, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- I do agree that not all personal attacks would equal to a severe BLP issue when directed at an editor; common sense must be used to differentiate between "you're a jerk"-type uncivil statements compared to "you're a racist"-type libelous/defamation statements. It's still a good reason to discourage personal attacks of any sort, since I fear that line can be blurry and subjective so the more we get editors to disengage in that manner, the better. But in terms of resolving personal attacks that fall within what I'm considered to be a BLP violation where there would be harm if that statement was made against a known living person without supporting evidence, we should handle these as BLP violations, removing those that are clearly contentious and unsourced, ignoring the fact that they may be directed to a pseudonym and not a real name, simply because we cannot be sure that someone outside WP's influence hasn't made that connection. It's a proactive stance. --MASEM (t) 17:53, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Again, I'm not referring to ordinary personal attacks, where people call one a jerk or asshole. That simply reflects poorly on the perpetrator. I'm talking about things that undermine and destroy the reputation of a fellow editor. Wikipedia editing is a real world activity, and this place is public. Our reputation here is important to us, even if it only were to be something known within this editorial community. Damaging that reputation damages our lives and our abilities to work effectively here. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:57, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
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Adding media commentary to BLPs of politicians
Are there guidelines for how much media commentary should be added to the BLPs of politicians? For example, David Cameron (UK prime minister) contains a whole section of political commentary, whereas Barack Obama contains very little commentary. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 20:29, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Application to people with unknown DOBs
This isn't specifically mentioned anywhere in the policy, but from my experience, it seems to be the case that anyone whose DOB is not confirmed and who doesn't have a reliably sourced death is presumed living until otherwise verified. Since there's no reliable way to tell if they were born within the last 115 years, I agree with this precedent, and I think this page should specifically address this. It would probably be helpful to change this section of the page so that it says:
Anyone born within the past 115 years or whose date of birth is unknown is covered by this policy unless a reliable source has confirmed their death.
Thoughts? Eventhorizon51 (talk) 06:24, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- I would think that would be difficult and/or incorrect. There are many historic individuals in WP where no records are available for their birth or death, and yet it is clearly safe to say they are dead. Višeslav of Serbia, Saint Veronica, William I of Bimbia for three quick examples. 1bandsaw (talk) 18:29, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- The thing with the examples you provided is that all of those people have a verifiable time in which they lived, and that time is far beyond 115 years ago. This is where WP:COMMONSENSE comes in. I think everyone can agree that a person can be presumed dead if they can be verified to have lived at a time over 115 years ago. If simple logic can conclude that a person was born more than 115 years ago, then this obviously does not apply. Eventhorizon51 (talk) 19:36, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- I'm going to assume silent consensus on this one for now. Feel free to revert and discuss if there are any objections. Eventhorizon51 (talk) 18:33, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
- I'm going to agree with 1bandsaw that this addition is unnecessary. Even if someone's DOB is unknown, it's easy to use common sense to determine if they were probably born in the last 115 years. Putting in a strict rule like that sounds like instruction creep when common sense is sufficient. Stickee (talk) 23:31, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
- The thing with the examples you provided is that all of those people have a verifiable time in which they lived, and that time is far beyond 115 years ago. This is where WP:COMMONSENSE comes in. I think everyone can agree that a person can be presumed dead if they can be verified to have lived at a time over 115 years ago. If simple logic can conclude that a person was born more than 115 years ago, then this obviously does not apply. Eventhorizon51 (talk) 19:36, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Comment - Are there use cases or examples which might highlight the difference and show how it is an improvement? - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 23:49, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose inclusion - I do not believe that this would be an improvement to the policy, and do conceive that it is open to wikilawyering. If a commonsense approach is proposed, then it is just as well for commonsense to be applied to the policy as is as the policy with the inclusion. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 23:49, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
How do we judge how actor articles should be rated?
Opinions are needed on the following matter: Talk:Angelina Jolie#How do we judge how actor articles should be rated?. A WP:Permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:32, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
2014 celebrity photo hack information at the Jennifer Lawrence article
Opinions are needed on the following matter: Talk:Jennifer Lawrence#Scandal. A WP:Permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:04, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Seeking clarification
Policy here says that tabloid journalism cannot be used to support edits which makes a lot of sense. However that appears to be interpreted as meaning that any material from any newspaper that ever indulges in tabloid journalism can be deleted without discussion or argument. There have been multiple discussions over the years at WP:RS where it has been agreed that the Mirror and the Mail (to take left and right wing examples) can be considered reliable sources when they are presenting facts, but not opinions. In general a broadsheet reference is to be preferred but then again broadsheets are not immune from tabloid journalism.
My reading of the policy is that tabloid journalism is properly excluded, but that does not exclude factual reporting by newspapers such as the Mail and The Mirror which fall somewhere between the out and out red tops like the Sun and the more populist broadsheets.
If there is a different standard here from that for reliable sources in general then the policy should be amended to make the position clearer ----Snowded TALK 11:11, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- The problem with the Mail (and perhaps the Mirror also) is that there are regular failures of "factual reporting". We can't be sufficiently confident that what they present as factual is indeed factual. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 11:30, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- Got that, my question is if there is a difference with WP:RS where they are allowed. If there is a blanket exclusion on their use for BLP then the policy should say "any tabloid newspaper' as well as or instead of 'tabloid journalism'. I'm OK with either option but it needs clarification to avoid conflict ----Snowded TALK 11:35, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- The Mail is probably the worst example in the UK in that it has actively presented stories as 'factual' while being caught making shit up. There is a discussion somewhere on RSN recently that references this. Redtops like the mirror and the sun are generally more reliable these days - so far as non-fact based tabloid journalism is obvious and likewise opinion is clearly visible. So its a lot easier to use them as a source where appropriate. Sadly the RSN noticeboard has yet to see fit to flat out bar the Daily Mail as a source for anything, however I suspect it is only a matter of time. I would love the BLP to actively bar using specific named publications from BLP articles, however I doubt that would get consensus. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:42, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think everybody agrees that material sourced from a serious non-tabloid newspaper is always preferable to material from a tabloid newspaper. The issue is whether all material published in a tabloid newspaper is covered by the term "tabloid journalism", which is a specific phrase that refers to an over-emphasis on scandal, sensationalism, gossip, etc.. Clearly, on some occasions, physically tabloid newspapers publish uncontentious, factually correct and properly sourced information. That is not "tabloid journalism" in the sense referred to at WP:BLPSOURCES. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:20, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- There is some more detail about this at Talk:Andy_Burnham#.22no_tabloids_on_BLPs_please.22 where I have had my two cents' worth. It was the allegations made about Philip Mould which led to WP:BLPSOURCES and doubts about using the Daily Mail as a source for anything on Wikipedia.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 12:25, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- Nothing would please me more than if the Daily Mail was excluded as a reliable source in Wikipedia :-) The storm in a team cup and aggressive templating at the Burnham article is now hopefully resolved. Given that I thought I would bring the policy issue here for clarification to reduce the chance of similar disputes in the future. So far it looks like we follow WP:RS and WP:BLPSOURCES is as per Ghmyrtle's summary. That would mean that material cannot be deleted simply because it comes from a Red Top, but only if it exhibits the characteristics of tabloid journalism.----Snowded TALK 12:43, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
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- Alas - there are zero reliable sources for celebrity gossip - which is where the DM (and even The Guardian) have problems. This does not mean we toss out babies with bathwater - as long as we recognize that all headline writers seek to get readers, and that headlines are not part of any actual "reliable source", the DM and Mirror etc. are fine. This has been discussed to death in the past, but, frankly, I would not even use The Times when it comes to rumours about celebrities. And any "reliable source" claims based on Twitter posts is "right out" IMO. Collect (talk) 15:46, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
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- Nothing would please me more than if the Daily Mail was excluded as a reliable source in Wikipedia :-) The storm in a team cup and aggressive templating at the Burnham article is now hopefully resolved. Given that I thought I would bring the policy issue here for clarification to reduce the chance of similar disputes in the future. So far it looks like we follow WP:RS and WP:BLPSOURCES is as per Ghmyrtle's summary. That would mean that material cannot be deleted simply because it comes from a Red Top, but only if it exhibits the characteristics of tabloid journalism.----Snowded TALK 12:43, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- There is some more detail about this at Talk:Andy_Burnham#.22no_tabloids_on_BLPs_please.22 where I have had my two cents' worth. It was the allegations made about Philip Mould which led to WP:BLPSOURCES and doubts about using the Daily Mail as a source for anything on Wikipedia.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 12:25, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think everybody agrees that material sourced from a serious non-tabloid newspaper is always preferable to material from a tabloid newspaper. The issue is whether all material published in a tabloid newspaper is covered by the term "tabloid journalism", which is a specific phrase that refers to an over-emphasis on scandal, sensationalism, gossip, etc.. Clearly, on some occasions, physically tabloid newspapers publish uncontentious, factually correct and properly sourced information. That is not "tabloid journalism" in the sense referred to at WP:BLPSOURCES. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:20, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- The Mail is probably the worst example in the UK in that it has actively presented stories as 'factual' while being caught making shit up. There is a discussion somewhere on RSN recently that references this. Redtops like the mirror and the sun are generally more reliable these days - so far as non-fact based tabloid journalism is obvious and likewise opinion is clearly visible. So its a lot easier to use them as a source where appropriate. Sadly the RSN noticeboard has yet to see fit to flat out bar the Daily Mail as a source for anything, however I suspect it is only a matter of time. I would love the BLP to actively bar using specific named publications from BLP articles, however I doubt that would get consensus. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:42, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- Got that, my question is if there is a difference with WP:RS where they are allowed. If there is a blanket exclusion on their use for BLP then the policy should say "any tabloid newspaper' as well as or instead of 'tabloid journalism'. I'm OK with either option but it needs clarification to avoid conflict ----Snowded TALK 11:35, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- It looks like WP:CLUE has prevailed once again. It might be worth other admins who watch this keeping a wee eye on User:Snowded in case he forgets this clarification again in the future. We have BLPSOURCES for good reason and those disagreeing with it would need to make a fairly major policy change to accept tabloid journalism on BLPs, or of course fork off to a new project. Meantime they should not believe that they can edit-war this material in one article at a time. No pasaran! --John (talk) 18:09, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- Forgive me, but have you read the above comments. To date no editor (other than you) thinks that all material in a tabloid journal is tabloid journalism. On that base your assertion of WP:BLPSOURCES as authority for you reverting material simply on the grounds that it was referenced to a tabloid journal does not have community support. You should also look at WP:RS which takes the same position. Now if your reference to WP:CLUE means you intend to ignore the above discussion then your behaviour becomes the problem. ----Snowded TALK 18:25, 30 December 2015 (UTC)