Dispute resolution (Requests) |
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A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Wikipedia. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.
This page trancludes from /Case, /Clarification and Amendment, /Motions, and /Enforcement.
Please make your request in the appropriate section:
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Contents
- 1 Requests for arbitration
- 2 Requests for clarification and amendment
- 2.1 Amendment request: Palestine-Israel articles (2)
- 2.1.1 Statement by Sir Joseph
- 2.1.2 Statement by Serialjoepsycho
- 2.1.3 Additional Statement by Sir Joseph
- 2.1.4 Statement by Pluto2012
- 2.1.5 Statement by Zero0000
- 2.1.6 Statement by Sean.hoyland
- 2.1.7 Statement by {other-editor}
- 2.1.8 Palestine-Israel_articles: Clerk notes
- 2.1.9 Palestine-Israel_articles: Arbitrator views and discussion
- 2.2 Clarification request: GoodDay
- 2.3 Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 3
- 2.4 Amendment request: Palestine-Israel articles (1RR)
- 2.4.1 Statement by NE Ent
- 2.4.2 Statement by Ks0stm
- 2.4.3 Statement by Sir Joseph
- 2.4.4 Statement by Serialjoepsycho
- 2.4.5 Statement by When Other Legends Are Forgotten
- 2.4.6 Statement by Begoon
- 2.4.7 Statement by Kingsindian
- 2.4.8 Statement by Huldra
- 2.4.9 Statement by LjL
- 2.4.10 Statement by Slakr
- 2.4.11 Statement by Zero0000
- 2.4.12 Statement by {other-editor}
- 2.4.13 Palestine-Israel articles (1RR): Clerk notes
- 2.4.14 Palestine-Israel articles (1RR): Arbitrator views and discussion
- 2.5 Clarification request: Genetically modified organisms (1)
- 2.5.1 Statement by JzG
- 2.5.2 Statement by SageRad
- 2.5.3 Statement by ScrapIronIV
- 2.5.4 Statement by Looie496
- 2.5.5 Statement by AlbinoFerret
- 2.5.6 Statement by Capeo
- 2.5.7 Statement by MarkBernstein
- 2.5.8 Statement by Wuerzele
- 2.5.9 Statement by Minor4th
- 2.5.10 Statement by Tryptofish
- 2.5.11 Statement by NE Ent (GMO)
- 2.5.12 Statement by Kingofaces43
- 2.5.13 Statement by DrChrissy
- 2.5.14 Statement by Mrjulesd
- 2.5.15 Statement by Serialjoepsycho
- 2.5.16 Statement by Semitransgenic
- 2.5.17 Statement by Count Iblis
- 2.5.18 Statement by {other-editor}
- 2.5.19 Genetically modified organisms (1): Clerk notes
- 2.5.20 Genetically modified organisms (1): Arbitrator views and discussion
- 2.6 Amendment request: American politics 2
- 2.6.1 Statement by Nocturnalnow
- 2.6.2 Statement by NorthBySouthBaranof
- 2.6.3 Statement by D.Creish
- 2.6.4 Statement by Vesuvius Dogg
- 2.6.5 Statement by Spartaz
- 2.6.6 Statement by NuclearWarfare
- 2.6.7 Statement by EdJohnston
- 2.6.8 Statement by L235
- 2.6.9 Statement by Mouse001
- 2.6.10 Statement by EvergreenFir
- 2.6.11 Statement by {other-editor}
- 2.6.12 American politics 2: Clerk notes
- 2.6.13 American politics 2: Arbitrator views and discussion
- 2.7 Clarification request: Genetically modified organisms (2)
- 2.7.1 Statement by JzG
- 2.7.2 Statement by DrChrissy
- 2.7.3 Statement by Capeo
- 2.7.4 Statement by Tryptofish
- 2.7.5 Statement by Aircorn
- 2.7.6 Statement by Dialectric
- 2.7.7 Statement by {other-editor}
- 2.7.8 Genetically modified organisms (2): Clerk notes
- 2.7.9 Genetically modified organisms (2): Arbitrator views and discussion
- 2.8 Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 3
- 2.1 Amendment request: Palestine-Israel articles (2)
- 3 Motions
- 4 Requests for enforcement
- 4.1 Ollie231213
- 4.2 Nocturnalnow
- 4.2.1 Request concerning Nocturnalnow
- 4.2.2 Discussion concerning Nocturnalnow
- 4.2.2.1 Statement by Nocturnalnow
- 4.2.2.2 Statement by Gamaliel
- 4.2.2.3 Statement by Johnuniq
- 4.2.2.4 Statement by an IP editor
- 4.2.2.5 Statement by Vesuvius Dogg
- 4.2.2.6 Statement by Mouse001
- 4.2.2.7 Statement by Cwobeel
- 4.2.2.8 Statement by D.Creish
- 4.2.2.9 Statement by another IP
- 4.2.2.10 Statement by (username)
- 4.2.3 Result concerning Nocturnalnow
- 4.3 Minor4th
- 4.3.1 Request concerning Minor4th
- 4.3.2 Discussion concerning Minor4th
- 4.3.2.1 Statement by Minor4th
- 4.3.2.2 Statement by David Tornheim
- 4.3.2.3 Statement by Tryptofish
- 4.3.2.4 Statement by JzG
- 4.3.2.5 Statement by Looie496
- 4.3.2.6 Statement by Capeo
- 4.3.2.7 Statement by AlbinoFerret
- 4.3.2.8 Statement by Kingofaces43
- 4.3.2.9 Statement by Atsme
- 4.3.2.10 Statement by uninvolved Masem
- 4.3.2.11 Statement by uninvolved MarkBernstein
- 4.3.2.12 Statement by Montanabw
- 4.3.2.13 Statement by uninvolved Mystery Wolff
- 4.3.3 Result concerning Minor4th
- 4.4 Volunteer Marek-personal attacks and incivility
- 4.5 930310
- 4.6 Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Winkelvi
- 4.6.1 Statement by Winkelvi
- 4.6.2 Statement by Bishonen
- 4.6.3 Statement by involved Cullen328
- 4.6.4 Statement by marginally involved Collect
- 4.6.5 Statement by largely uninvolved Blackmane
- 4.6.6 Statement by uninvolved Figureofnine
- 4.6.7 Statement by Francis Schonken
- 4.6.8 Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Winkelvi
- 4.6.9 Result of the appeal by Winkelvi
- 4.7 HughD
- 4.8 Kachelus
Requests for arbitration
Requests for clarification and amendment
Amendment request: Palestine-Israel articles (2)
Initiated by Sir Joseph at 19:57, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- Articles part of the ARBPIA arena
- List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- Sir Joseph (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- Information about amendment request
- Articles part of the ARBPIA arena
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- Removal of Haredim and Zionism
Statement by Sir Joseph
The article Haredim and Zionism has nothing to do with the ARBPIA arena, or if it does 5%, and it should be removed to clean up those areas under ARBPIA sanctionable spaces. This article used to be edited heavily back in the early 2000's and had some disputes involving some sockpuppets but the article and disputes if any in general do not involve Israel-Palestine and just involve intra-Jewish halacha response to Israel as a Jewish State.
Statement by Serialjoepsycho
This article seems fairly stable. It doesn't seem to be much of a focus of the Israel and Palestine partisan divide that causes so much disruption on Wikipedia. Removing the cumbersome discretionary sanctions such as 1RR doesn't seem to be an unreasonable request. If an issue later arises it can always be put back under these sanctions. You can leave it to administrator discretion.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 04:35, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- I do understand your position here Amanda. However, Since everyone's here, you could review whether to whitelist this article and also offer the clarification that AE is to be used for the whitelisting of articles. From your comments it does seem as if we are breaking new ground on how an article should be reviewed for if it falls under a certain set of sanctions.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:54, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- ARBPIA is broadly construed. Haredim groups that support the PLO and Hamas, zionism. There's not an actual question of why this was put under Arbpia honestly.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 12:46, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- Sir Joseph, There's not some secret committee that puts articles under sanctions. By the actions of arbcom articles are put under sanctions. ARBPIA for instance use language like "broadly construed". This is every article on wikipedia and every new article created that relates in anyway to the Arab and Israeli conflict. This is whether they are marked or not on the talk page.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 23:50, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- And if you feel an article falls under ARBPIA and someone has violated it AE would be the appropriate location to take it to. ARBCOM members could we trouble you to link the template to make other editors aware of ARBPIA?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:01, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
- Sir Joseph, do I think it's ripe for abuse? No. Save for 1RR Sanctions are not placed without prior warning with ARBPIA. Regardless of whether a page is marked or not you can be sanctioned after being warned. In the event that an article is not actually under sanctions you can make that clear at AE or any time after being banned. This article only mentions Zionism but also supporters of Hamas and the PLO. There's not actually an argument that you can make that this is not a part of Arbpia. It has already been dcided what is a part of ARBPIA. Anything that is a part of the Arab-Israeli conflict broadly construed. Your making an appeal to fear that the system can be gamed. Your alternative could be gamed as well. Gaming the sanctions is a can lead to discretionary sanctions. Instead of hypothetical show where this actually happening so that something can be done.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 10:47, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
- If someone was not warned about 1RR they could be blocked for 1rr. Where is this article that was put up by sock?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:11, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- So again it's all about a hypothetical but not an issue that is actually happening? If a page does not have this warning on it but it is an ARBPIA article and you have already been warned ARBPIA you can receive discretionary sanctions. If a page is not ARBPIA and it has this warning on it and you receive discretionary sanctions you can use that in your defense. If this actually becomes an issue ARBCOM should do something about it and that's if giving sanctions to those gaming the system doesn't fix it. As far as I can tell this hasn't actually been an issue. When there are actually issues on wikipedia the unpaid volunteer editors of ARBCOM do not need to waste their time on hypothetical issues that others bring to them. The possible negative hypotheticals that could be brought to them are to numerous to calculate. In short, unless it's actually broke they don't need to fix it.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:21, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- From what you understand? I don't have any further comment here. This is to painful.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 06:00, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- So again it's all about a hypothetical but not an issue that is actually happening? If a page does not have this warning on it but it is an ARBPIA article and you have already been warned ARBPIA you can receive discretionary sanctions. If a page is not ARBPIA and it has this warning on it and you receive discretionary sanctions you can use that in your defense. If this actually becomes an issue ARBCOM should do something about it and that's if giving sanctions to those gaming the system doesn't fix it. As far as I can tell this hasn't actually been an issue. When there are actually issues on wikipedia the unpaid volunteer editors of ARBCOM do not need to waste their time on hypothetical issues that others bring to them. The possible negative hypotheticals that could be brought to them are to numerous to calculate. In short, unless it's actually broke they don't need to fix it.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:21, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- ARBPIA is broadly construed. Haredim groups that support the PLO and Hamas, zionism. There's not an actual question of why this was put under Arbpia honestly.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 12:46, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Additional Statement by Sir Joseph
I just want to add one more thing, something similar to what I wrote on the Jew case above. How do I know that the ARBPIA template was even added correctly to this article? For all I know some admin assumed it to be in the same sphere as Israel-Palestine and just copy-pasted it. Looking at the original ARBPIA articles, I could not find this article listed. I do think it would be a good idea that when articles are added/deleted/amended/etc. a record is kept, so that when a template is put on the page, we know where to look to find out why, and we can see the reasoning behind it. It could very well be that there was a discussion about this page years back in some archive long gone, but that's neither here nor there (but it is somewhere), but I do ask you to consider that in the future for all ARBCOM cases, when you add articles, to please maintain or track on the talk page of the article the date of the discussion. Thank you. Sir Joseph (talk) 18:43, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- Comment after reading Amanda's comment, does being included in the Wikiproject Israel automatically put you under this AE? That doesn't make any sense. I know of tons of articles that are under Wikiproject Israel not under sanctions so I still don't know how this article got placed under sanctions and that's why there should be somewhere it is discussed before something so drastic as placing an article on restrictions occurs. Sir Joseph (talk) 01:26, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- I don't necessarily want a whitelist, I would like to know how this article got included, and how other articles get included and do all project articles get included automatically. Sir Joseph (talk) 02:31, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- I just reverted an IP edit to Yom_Ha'atzmaut because I assumed that would be under sanctions. I was surprised to find no such template, so my question still stands. How do articles get put under sanctions? Sir Joseph (talk) 15:07, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
- I disagree with Pluto2012, looking at the article, and the history while it may be a contentious area, it is not something as serious as the IP area and my question still remains, why is this article in the IP sanctions automatically? There has to be a process in place, not every article in WIKIPROJECT:ISRAEL is subject to IP sanctions. This article, for example is stable enough and contrary to Pluto2012's assertions, any conflicts in edits is handled on the talk page. The last edit war on that article was in 2006 if my memory serves me. Putting a disputed tag on an article doesn't mean I think it belongs in the IP area, it just means a fact in the article is under dispute. As for Zero's statement that because it has the word Zionism it must be under IP sanctions, that is also not true. This is not necessarily dealing with the IP conflict. This is dealing with internal Jewish religious issues and how to deal with Zionism. That doesn't bring it to the level of the IP conflict and again, look at the edit history. Sir Joseph (talk) 01:17, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
- Serialjoepsycho, and if we can just paste a template on a talk page, don't you think that would be ripe for abuse? If I decide that a page is subject to ARBPIA, then I post it to a talk page then I take you to AE and you're blocked for violating something you never even knew was part of ARBPIA. ARBCOM won't investigate who put the template. The template is on the page. What about removing from the page? My statement still stands. There ought to be a process, in all ARBCOM cases where pages are marked with a template. Who decided that this page is subject to ARBPIA? Maybe it wasn't ARBCOM, I couldn't find the diff. I found lots of WIKIPROJECT:ISRAEL articles not under ARBPIA, should I just tag them with the template? I think that's a terrible idea. Sir Joseph (talk) 01:28, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
- Serialjoepsycho, I just found an article that had a template placed on it by a sock blocked user. If someone were warned for 1rr on that article, they would be blocked because nobody would've known that the template didn't being.Sir Joseph (talk) 21:59, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
- Har Nof had a template put in June by a sock. I found it because I was wondering why it was there. That article has nothing to do with the IP conflict, broadly construed, and indeed, I found that it was just placed there. I removed it, but in this case the article is not heavily edited so it was simple to do. What happens in an article that is edited? After a few weeks or months, that template becomes fact and it becomes a sanctionable article even though it has nothing to do with ARBCOM area. Sir Joseph (talk) 00:16, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- Actually, from what I can gather, the sock put the template on and then brought someone to AN and the user got blocked for violating ARBPIA, so it's not hypothetical. We have a user putting on a template and an admin blocking based on that template. Sir Joseph (talk) 03:24, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- I don't know what you're complaining about, EdJohnston blocked a user based on a sock's placement of a template that didn't belong. The sock was in an edit war, placed the template and then reported the other user. He knew how to game the system. I don't know how you can't see that as a problem when there is no official record when articles are placed under sanctions. Sir Joseph (talk) 14:34, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- Actually, from what I can gather, the sock put the template on and then brought someone to AN and the user got blocked for violating ARBPIA, so it's not hypothetical. We have a user putting on a template and an admin blocking based on that template. Sir Joseph (talk) 03:24, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- Har Nof had a template put in June by a sock. I found it because I was wondering why it was there. That article has nothing to do with the IP conflict, broadly construed, and indeed, I found that it was just placed there. I removed it, but in this case the article is not heavily edited so it was simple to do. What happens in an article that is edited? After a few weeks or months, that template becomes fact and it becomes a sanctionable article even though it has nothing to do with ARBCOM area. Sir Joseph (talk) 00:16, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- Serialjoepsycho, I just found an article that had a template placed on it by a sock blocked user. If someone were warned for 1rr on that article, they would be blocked because nobody would've known that the template didn't being.Sir Joseph (talk) 21:59, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
- I just reverted an IP edit to Yom_Ha'atzmaut because I assumed that would be under sanctions. I was surprised to find no such template, so my question still stands. How do articles get put under sanctions? Sir Joseph (talk) 15:07, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
- I don't necessarily want a whitelist, I would like to know how this article got included, and how other articles get included and do all project articles get included automatically. Sir Joseph (talk) 02:31, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Not every mention of Jerusalem means that the article is under ARBPIA. I don't think EdJohnston was correct when he blocked that user, and he even said that all ARBCOM said with regards to Jerusalem was arbitrated the lead to the article. We should not be having secret articles subject to restrictions. There ought to be a process to how articles get placed under sanctions and "broadly construed" does not mean just mentioning the word "Israel." That is pretty ludicrous. Regardless, you can't have a system where people get sanctioned for something as "broadly construed." Sir Joseph (talk) 17:42, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- But having an entire article placed under restrictions because of that is ludicrous. We are discussing Israel, does that mean that AE is now under 1RR? Certain topics are contentious and need 1RR. But most topics don't need 1RR and if something discusses it tangentially, then I don't think it should change the entire article. And if you look at ARBCOM, you'll see how often they have things brought because of "broadly construed." Sir Joseph (talk) 19:00, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Pluto2012
This articles deals with a very contentious topic in the I-P conflict, which is the anti-zionism of some Jewish communities. Some of them, the Naturei Karta are well-known and even used in the propaganda war between Israel and its ennemies and opponents (eg Iran). Sir Joseph himself added a tag several weeks ago stating the article was disputed. I think it should remain the ARPBIA list. There is no added value to remove this and at the contrary it could be used a a pretext of edit war. Any improvement can be discussed on the talk page. Pluto2012 (talk) 10:48, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000
An article about Zionism is an article about the I-P conflict. I think the argument to the contrary is simply mistaken. Zerotalk 12:23, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoyland
@Sir Joseph:, you have your facts slightly wrong regarding NoCal100's typically hypocritical behavior on behalf of the State of Israel using his All Rows4 sock account. He warned the user on 1 June 2015 here, reported him the same day here, and placed the ARBPIA template on the talk page on 3 June 2015 here as a result of comments at the 3RR report. The edit warring was covered by 1RR, regardless of the presence or absence of the ARBPIA template, because it was about the status of Jerusalem i.e. whether Wikipedia can use its neutral narrative voice to refer to places in West Jerusalem as being in Israel. Yes, the sock successfully gamed the system, as has happened countless times (even the ARBPIA discussions are contaminated by evidence presented by socks), but it wasn't dependent on the presence or absence of the ARBPIA template or the notion of the article being a member of a set of 'ARBPIA articles'. It's because, in practice, 1RR has been enforced at the content level, even if it is just one word or sentence that is interpreted as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed, despite the ARBPIA restrictions talking about things at the article level. Since the 500 edit/30 day restriction is currently being enforced by editors rather than by software, perhaps that restriction will also be enforced at the content level rather than the article level in practice. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:14, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
But you can and do have a system where people are sanctioned for something as "broadly construed". You can and do have a system where an edit war over a sentence that is related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, like the status of Jerusalem, is treated as being within scope of ARBPIA regardless of the article in which the edit war takes place. That seems better to me because it means that the restrictions can be enforced at a finer scale than the article unit. It's often not possible to decide whether something is an 'ARBPIA article' in a repeatable way, but it's very often possible to decide that specific content in an article, and editor actions related to that content, are within scope of ARBPIA. It's usually obvious. Admins, unlike bots so far at least, can usually recognize when something, a sentence, a paragraph, a section, an edit war, is within scope of the ARBPIA restrictions. I agree that not every mention of Jerusalem means that the article is under ARBPIA. If editors could simply refer to Jerusalem as Jerusalem throughout Wikipedia these issues would never occur. But if an article says "Jerusalem, Israel" for example and an editor thinks that violates policy, everything that follows from that point will be within scope of ARBPIA and admins are likely to treat it as such. Ed blocked the editor for an ARBPIA 1RR violation. It wouldn't make sense to have a situation where similar edit wars, over the status of Jerusalem for example, something that is clearly within scope of ARBPIA, were treated differently because they took place in different articles. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:30, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Palestine-Israel_articles: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Palestine-Israel_articles: Arbitrator views and discussion
- Looking t the article, I don't see how editing it would affect the actual problem area. DGG ( talk ) 20:19, 26 November 2015 (UTC) .
- I'm inclined to agree with Serialjoepsycho 2 that there seems little chance of a problem occurring if we restore the normal editing environment to this article. If problems do occur then I'm happy for the restrictions to be reimposed by an uninvolved admin following a request at ANI or AE. Thryduulf (talk) 13:22, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- I'm no expert on what is or isn't part of this, but I do see where people could see it, but again, it doesn't seem to be an issue. As for whitelisting, I'd rather find a more broad approach so we aren't hearing ARCA after ARCA of please uninclude x article. I dug, and their seems to be no context to the addition. Maybe this is a good job for AE to use discretion on removing the topic areas? (Only throwing a suggestion) -- Amanda (aka DQ) 04:54, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Decline and kick to AE to use their best judgment. I do not like the idea of a white list at all --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 01:51, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- 'Decline Doug Weller (talk) 21:58, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
Clarification request: GoodDay
Initiated by GoodDay at 15:53, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
- GoodDay (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- Steven Crossin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Statement by GoodDay
Since I've been restricted (in June 2012), a new tool has been added to Wikipedia. This tool gives editors the ability to 'Thank' editors for their edits & posts, via a THANK button. My question is - Am I allowed to THANK editors for any edits or posts made in relation to my restriction diacritics? GoodDay (talk) 16:06, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Response to BMK - the 2 times that I was reported at AE for breaches of this restriction (both situations happened at my talk-page & my now deleted secondary talk-page), the results were a 1-week block & a 1-month block, respectively. I wanted to make absolute certain, a 3rd AE report wouldn't be made on me, merely because I THANKED anybody for making an diacritics changing edit or just posting about diacritics. GoodDay (talk) 02:25, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Clarification - The only editors I would thank, would be those who's edits or posts I happen to agree with. I certaintly wouldn't pester any editor or editors, that I had differences with in the past concerning diacritics. GoodDay (talk) 18:12, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Response to Steven Crossin - There seems to be a misunderstanding here. I'm not asking arbitrators for 'permission'. I'm asking arbitrators if my restriction covers 'thanking' editors. I'm seeking clarification & nothing more. GoodDay (talk) 05:23, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
Having read over the opinons of arbitrators. It appears that none of them are forbidding me to thank editors in the area-in-question. Therefore, I'll thank editors on my own discretion. Fear not, 1 or 2 thanks per year, is hardly going to cause any disruptions. GoodDay (talk) 15:41, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
To Thryduulf - FWIW, I'm not under any IBAN. GoodDay (talk) 14:38, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Indeed, that part of my comment is speaking "in general terms", i.e. not about you specifically. Thryduulf (talk) 23:19, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
To Guerillero - I've no desire to try & influence anyone concerning diacritics. Your's is the first message to suggest penalties, regardless. If arbitrators want to officially or unofficially tighten my restriction via barring me from THANKING editors in this area? then so be it. I appreciate the clarification of this matter & will comply with your ruling. GoodDay (talk) 03:47, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
To all arbitrators - Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I planned to thank editors who made edits & posts that I agreed with. I wasn't looking to torment anyone. Anyways, I would appreciate it, if this request were closed. GoodDay (talk) 01:44, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
To GorillaWarfare - This restriction has been in place for 3.5 years, with arbitrators showing no signs of ever lifting or easing it. I think, I've been quite patient about it. I certaintly haven't been frantic, as there's been no f-bombs flying. :) GoodDay (talk) 22:46, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Beyond My Ken
I'm not sure why GoodDay thought it was necessary to bring this here, since he got fairly good advice when he asked the same question on WP:AN#Arbcom remedies a couple of days ago. It's not like ArbCom doesn't have a couple of other things on its plate at the moment. BMK (talk) 02:12, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- I would say that you shouldn't do it, then. If you've under a sanction to avoid diacritics (probably "broadly construed"), then if you make a habit of thanking people for diacritic-related edits, you're not really avoiding the subject, are you? The answer seems pretty clear: stop obsessing about diacritics and find something completely and totally unrelated to do. BMK (talk) 04:13, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- @GoodDay: "I would stay away from the topic area" is not exactly a green light to thank people for their edits in the topic area. As for your discretion - well, to be frank, your lack of discretion concerning diacritics is one reason you are under a topic ban in the first place, so I still think you would be better off turning your back to that subject entirely and doing something else - don't even monitor it for people to thank. BMK (talk) 23:56, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Steven Crossin
Kinda have to agree with BMK here, GoodDay. While not really objectionable and as the arbs say, there are worse things you could do, I'd encourage you to focus on other things. Probably a better use of your time, tbh. Steven Crossin (was Steven Zhang) 05:17, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
GoodDay: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
GoodDay: Arbitrator views and discussion
- I can think of few things less objectionable than thanking people. Even so, technically, the language of the restriction is "making any edits", and thanks are not edits. Courcelles (talk) 00:46, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- Meh. As a general principle: occasionally thank people if you like their edits, but don't do it with the intent of being objectionable. Spam-thanking people, or thanking people who have asked you not to interact with them, will likely lead to sanctions for disruptive editing. -- Euryalus (talk) 05:58, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Euryalus. GoodDay raised this issue at AN[1] - User:BMK, for what I think are good reasons and can be read there, thougt it was a bad idea, and User:Nyttend pointed out that WP:IBAN prohibits it between IBANed (sp?) editors, Doug Weller (talk) 17:26, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- I would stay away from the topic area. --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 14:51, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- I want to further state, that using Special:Thank or another non-editing tool to further a dispute that you are topic banned from will quickly lead to your ban being restored or or any logged or unlogged action in relation to being added to your topic ban. Please do not take our kind advice as a carte blanche to continue your dispute. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 03:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- I've commented previously that you (GoodDay) should completely stay away the topic area you were restricted from, and I'm going to reiterate that advice now - let it go. In general terms, people who are topic banned should not be making any edits or logged actions relating to the relevant topic area, and thanking someone does breach an interaction ban. Thryduulf (talk) 11:37, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Whether or not it's technically allowed, this type of skating right up to the line (if not over it) is not the proper way to handle a topic ban. A topic ban means to stay well clear of the area, not try to game it and try to find ways to shout from the sidelines. Seraphimblade Talk to me 02:24, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- I've received quite a few thanks here which are obviously not to be taken literally (for example, someone who wrote an article I deleted). I take it as an acknowledgement, even though it may have been meant as ironic or a mild form of protest. (People in such situations have even given me a barnstar a few times). I think the possibility of use in this manner sufficiently great, that it should indeed be covered by the restriction. DGG ( talk ) 01:39, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Would I support a sanction based on the use of the thanks tool on a page that falls within the topic ban? No, probably not. But this does strike me as a frantic attempt to participate in the topic area without technically being in breach of a ban, which frankly makes me think the ban was a good decision. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:40, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 3
Initiated by Zero0000 at 01:16, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- Palestine-Israel articles 3 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
- Zero0000 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Statement by Zero0000
I'm writing concerning the General Prohibition "All anonymous IP editors and accounts with less than 500 edits and 30 days tenure are prohibited from editing any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict."
Unfortunately many articles are seeing a lot of edits from IPs and others failing to meet this requirement (many of which are probably unaware of it) followed by reverts by others. Semi-protection would help a lot. My question is: since semi-protection will have no effect on editors who are entitled to edit at all, can semi-protection be applied by involved administrators?
Of course automated enforcement of the prohibition would be the best solution.
Statement by Mz7
I don't think the committee should make any blanket endorsement of involved administrator action. I can envision disputes over which articles fall under the general prohibition, and things can turn ugly if there is an WP:INVOLVED case. Obviously, the reasonability rule still applies—if an involved admin protects a page that any reasonable administrator would also protect, then there shouldn't be any issues (see third paragraph of WP:INVOLVED). But this is a very case-by-case thing, and if there is even a slight possibility of contentiousness (and in this topic area, this might always be the case...), always WP:RFPP. Mz7 (talk) 06:18, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Would it be possible to create some form of hidden maintenance category that includes all the pages under the restriction, and craft a bot or an edit filter that disallows or automatically reverts and warns users fall under the restrictions? If ARCA is not the right venue for discussing this, we should probably have a community discussion. Mz7 (talk) 19:05, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Rich Farmbrough (PIA3)
It was fairly clear that there would be trouble making this fly. The difference between a 500/30 protection on one article, and the same on a whole topic is one of kind not quantity.
While it is technically feasible to find a solution, it is pretty undesirable to effectively topic-ban 7 billion people - especially given the breadth with which these topic bans are interpreted. It is equivalent to banning all under 60s from parkland, becasue some youth drop litter. (More topical analogies might also spring to mind.)
All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 12:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC).
Statement by Kingsindian
I meant to open an WP:ARCA request for this, but was too lazy and forgot.
- There is no way to consistently apply the General Prohibitions remedy to the entire topic area, and nobody has even tried so far. It is even unclear as to what list of pages one is supposed to apply this to.
- Semi-protection will not take care of the 30/500 requirement, and is trivial to defeat by a moderately determined sockpuppet.
- IP and non 30/500 edits are often benign and useful. See this diff updating the HDI status for State of Palestine. Many others can be given.
I suggest the following, which is explicitly allowed by the remedy. This prohibition may be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of Pending Changes, and appropriate edit filters. Let the emphasis of the enforcement be on reverts rather than semi-protection, edit filters or blocks. Use semi-protection sparingly and temporarily, in direct response to disruption. Zero0000's proposal about involved admins applying semi-protection (ideally temporarily) seems good to me. The emphasis on blocks makes the most sense, is most consistent and least harmful. It is trivial to undo any bad edits by IPs, inexperienced editors etc. In my experience, just mentioning the magic word WP:ARBPIA3 is enough to "win" any content dispute (the recent flap involving Huldra is an exception rather than the rule; she didn't say the magic word). Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 07:08, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Palestine-Israel articles 3: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Palestine-Israel articles 3: Arbitrator views and discussion
- I thought we had asked the WMF about automated enforcement mechanisms? DGG ( talk ) 22:42, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- There are two questions here:
- Can involved administrators semi-protect pages in this topic area?
- I do not think this topic area should be treated any differently than any other with regards to WP:INVOLVED, so no (except as per Mz7). Thryduulf (talk) 16:36, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Can the restrictions be enforced automatically?
- Can involved administrators semi-protect pages in this topic area?
- If it gets the thumbs up from BAG, one could use an admin bot to semi-protect all of the pages in the topic area. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 03:05, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- Concerning the clarification suggested by Thryduulf in this section, I agree that involved admins should not get involved in any aspect of enforcement, including this. I would like to see a way of enforcing numerical limits that did not rely on individual actions;any way that works is OK with me. DGG ( talk ) 01:35, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- I have no issues with an administrator semi-protecting a page that falls within these boundaries. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:35, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Amendment request: Palestine-Israel articles (1RR)
Initiated by NE Ent at 00:56, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- NE Ent (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- Information about amendment request
- Link to the principle, finding, remedy, section, etc for which you are requesting amendment
Statement by NE Ent
The 1RR rule prohibits editors from reverting non-IPs more than once a day and no newbie rule says low edit registered editors can be reverted, so when Huldra reverted new editor Terrible towel7 per the no newbie rule Ks0stm blocked her per the 1RR rule. Please fix the 1RR rule, and then get a clerk to change the wording on {{ARBPIA}} so this doesn't happen again. NE Ent 00:56, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Ks0stm
Fixing this would be helpful. At first I assumed based on {{ARBPIA}} that the 1RR restriction did not include an exception for non-IP new users, but apparently the restriction against new editors says that it can be enforced through reverts? It's quite confusing the way it's set up right now. Either way, I've unblocked since I now assume that the intent was for such reverts to not be subject to 1RR. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 01:07, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- Also, if it turns out these two restrictions do conflict and Huldra's reverts indeed were not supposed to be subject to the 1RR restriction, I would like permission to RevDel the block out of Huldra's block log, per WP:CRD. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 02:06, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- @When Other Legends Are Forgotten: 1. Replies in your own section, please. 2. I may have a relatively low edit count compared to some other editors/admins, but I am by no means "inexperienced" or "bullied". I explained my rationale at ANI, but for reference: "I unblocked because the restriction against new users, which can be enforced "by reverts", was enacted after the 1RR restriction. I therefore think it a more reasonable assumption that the new user restriction supersedes the 1RR restriction." Still, the restrictions do seem to conflict each other, and it is something I would welcome clarification from ArbCom on. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 02:35, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Sir Joseph: I would welcome hearing the committee's thoughts on 3RR's applications to this, but again, I assume "by reverts" to give license to surpass 3RR the same as for vandalism. I could be mistaken on this, however. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 02:38, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Sir Joseph: The part I quote is at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 3#General Prohibition. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 02:43, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- Well, I don't know, then. We'll see. I still feel like I made the right call to unblock, whether or not my call to block was correct. The waters are too muddy on this for me to feel comfortable leaving that block in place, which I hope is an understandable position. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 03:00, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Sir Joseph: The part I quote is at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 3#General Prohibition. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 02:43, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Sir Joseph
ARBPIA only applies to 1RR, but as I understand it, "regular" WIKIPEDIA policy applies to everything else, such as 3RR, which she did violate. The user should have been reported to 3RR or EDITWAR and have been sorted out. Once the revert goes past 3RR, doesn't that mean everyone is in violation of WIKI policy? As I understand it, from 1-3 revert, there is a free pass on reverting an excluded user, once three reverts , then that user should be reported to AIV or the like. Sir Joseph (talk) 02:24, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- Comments moved to #Statement by When Other Legends Are Forgotten
- Right, I meant that after 3 reverts, Huldra should not have reverted and should have reported the other user. Both users should have been blocked at this point for 3RR violations. As for your point, I agree. Reading Dan Murphy's comment and others, it is no wonder why certain areas are not welcome anymore. The fact of the matter is that she violated 3RR. That is out of ARBPIA. She was blocked and she should not have been unblocked. Sir Joseph (talk) 02:30, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Ks0stm Here's the text from the ARBPIA ruling: "Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Reverts of edits made by anonymous IP editors that are not vandalism are exempt from 1RR but are subject to the usual rules on edit warring." The link to that includes 3RR, which would presume to go along with what I wrote above, that 1-3 reverts is disregarded for IP users, after 3RR you need to follow general Wikipedia guidelines. It has always been assumed that general Wiki policies apply above those of ARBPIA. Sir Joseph (talk) 02:40, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Ks0stm The case itself, and the template itself still have the wording that general Wikipedia policies apply. Furthermore, can ARBCOM violate Wikipedia policies when Wiki is more stringent? It's one thing for ARBCOM to prohibit 1RR, since Wikipedia allows 1RR, but Wikipedia does not allow 3RR. There is a procedure in place for 3RR and that is reporting to the admins. In this case, I believe that from 1-3 reverts is free, but after 3, the user should be reported either to admins or to AE, but you still can't revert more than 3 times since Wikipedia does not allow it. Regardless, I don't think you should have unblocked before you had a consensus. At the very least the clear evidence of the template is that 3RR is not to be violated. Sir Joseph (talk) 02:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think giving users carte blanche is a real bad idea, least of which is that 24/7 reverts won't solve anything if the user will not be reported to AE. At a certain point enough is enough and the reverting has to stop and general guidelines come into play. I think this is just more trouble than it's worth. Sir Joseph (talk) 03:23, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- No matter what happens, at the very least, the template needs to be modified so that editors and admins have clarity on what the new rules are. As it is now, IIRC, the template is not clear at all and is the reason why we're in this mess. Sir Joseph (talk) 05:02, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- If we're going to request revdel of wrong blocks, I want my 1RR block from Feb 2014 done as well. If you look at the logs, I was not given any notice of 1RR or DS. The DS notice I was given on my talk page (Archive 2) was given the same time as my 24 hour block. That means that Callanec gave me an illegal block, I would like that cleared from my Wiki record. Sir Joseph (talk) 04:51, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Serialjoepsycho
Due to Arbpia3, Terrible towel7, with less than 500 edits is under ORR. They inserted their own original research, interpreting the meaning of a primary source and effectively created a BLP violation. Huldra was neither in violation of 1RR, 3RR, 6RR, or 20RR, due to the BLP exemption. Terrible Towel was in violation due to their first single edit. The edit warring that followed is enough not to consider any leeway in whether or not they were aware of ARBPIA3 in the first place as they went well beyond a 3RR violation. I hope in the future Huldra will go to the edit war noticeboard instead of continuing on with such an edit warrior but they did nothing wrong. It would probably help to clarify what procedure to take when an ip editor or other user under 500 contributions makes an edit. Are they exempt from revert rules?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 02:59, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- When Other Legends Are Forgotten, please save the wikilawyering. Ex post facto? [2] Is this not the first revert by them? While they say BOP-violation, this is clearly a typographic error and they meant BLP violation. How ever there's no need to take my word for that, why don't we just ask if there's any question to this. Your quoting policy but you make no actual argument as to why this would be exempt under the BLP. Terrible towel did use a primary source. They themselves interpreted it's meaning, which is original research. There's really no question here if this was a BLP violation or not, you have not found a loophole in the part of the policy you quote. Material challenged or likely to be challanged and all that jazz is what this comes down to. The primary source used and the users original research do not meet wikipedias standards of verification. They made the position first that it was a blp violation and later that it was vandalism. It probably had something to do with the wp:pointyness of the users few attempts to discuss it with huldra [3]. I'm not sure your part in this. From my perspective as a neutral observer you seem to have an axe to grind with Huldra. I'd caution you if that is the case, standing before arbcom is probably not the best choices of locations.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 05:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Thryduulf: I note your hesitation on the revdel and as I understand from your choice of words you feel as if such a revdel will sully the record of Ks0stm. I'm guessing a paper trail is left behind with revdel? I also note that it is Ks0stm that suggested the revdel. If there is a paper trail can it read that this was a good faith block and they had asked for the revdel personally? Or anything to the effect that leaves it clear that this block was not of any impropriety on the part of them?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 10:49, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by When Other Legends Are Forgotten
She WAS reported for 3RR, and initially blocked for that - correctly. Then we had her usual supporters bully and mislead an inexperienced admin into unblocking her. When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk) 02:27, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- Moved from #Statement by Sir Joseph, When Other Legends Are Forgotten please comment only in your section. Kharkiv07 (T) 03:28, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
@Ks0stm:, the newer restriction adds newbie editors to the same category as IP editors, and puts both into a 0RR restriction, which means they can be reverted without violating 1RR. But it does not mean (at least not as worded in the ARBCOM decision) that they can be reverted without limitation. In fact , the wording of the original decision strongly suggests that this is NOT the case, since that decision said that while IPs can be reverted without violating 1RR, they are still subject to regular edit warring rules like 3RR.
@Serialjoepsycho: "BLP" is not some magic pixie dust whose invocation grants you immunity. The BLP exemption makes it clear that "What counts as exempt under BLP can be controversial. Consider reporting to the BLP noticeboard instead of relying on this exemption.". It really strains credulity to suggest that quoting a person verbatim would be a BLP violation. regardless, this smacks of ex-post facto rationalization. When Huldra made this report - [4] - she was claiming "vandalism " (which it is of course NOT). On Terrible Towel's page, she was invoking the WP:PIA3 restriction.
Statement by Begoon
Wow. What a mess. Huldra was doing the right thing, enforcing Arbcom sanctions and protecting an article. That's quite clear, under the provisions of the "GP", and the partisan wikilawyering about 3RR is irrelevant and unseemly.
Ks0stm thought they were doing the right thing, but the Arbcom sanctions were confusing. Once they realised this, they continued to try to do the right thing by unblocking and coming here, asking Arbcom to help fix it.
Let's hope Arbcom can continue the theme, by doing the right thing themselves: fixing the confusing sanctions, and allowing the unnecessary block notations to be deleted from the record of a 10 year user with a clean block log. Of note is that Huldra does valuable, important work in this difficult, fraught area, where many would not be willing to, so that clean block log is both highly commendable and very important to them - allowing the notations to stand would surely hinder their valuable work, as opponents abuse their existence "in battle". Begoon talk 07:22, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
Thryduulf, you say "Ks0stm's block was though made in good faith and they should not be sanctioned for it, and for the same reason I'm initially reluctant to revdel the entry in the block log" - I agree that the block was a good faith error, caused by confusing ARBPIA/ARBPIA3 wording, and that sanctioning Ks0stm would be ludicrous. I don't think anyone has suggested that.
I don't, however see how the "same reason" makes you reluctant to remove this error from Huldra's block log, particularly given their 10 year clean block log, editing in a troublesome area, where any entry in a block log is likely to be used as a "cudgel" against them in inevitable encounters with tendentious editors. In fact, I'm sorry, I can't parse that "same reason" logic at all. Apologies if I'm being dumb...
It does concern me greatly that an editor doing good work in a difficult area should be left with a stained record, through no fault of their own, when the remedy is simple, and obvious. We should be thanking and encouraging work like this - not potentially hindering or discouraging it. Begoon talk 10:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
To the arbitrators basically saying "we never revision deleted a block log before, so we don't think we should now", that says a couple of things to me.
- Firstly, you have not considered the particular circumstances here: unclear arbcom restrictions caused an admin to err, and a good-faith user to be penalised for nothing. It's an arbcom error - who else should correct it?
- Secondly, I don't think you were elected to duck difficult issues and cling to some nebulous "precedent", rather to resolve them, and this obvious resolution is in your gift, and requested by both the blocking admin and the blocked user.
- Finally, you don't seem to have understood the particular issues this will cause for this editor in the area they edit (I do hope they continue to do so, after this, but could not fault them for reconsidering...).
They have tried to explain the difficulties this will cause them. Do you find their concerns invalid?
To the arbitrator who has opined that they have no issue with this simple, obvious remedy - thank you, not for the first time. Begoon talk 00:52, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Kingsindian
This is a rather simple request. The General Prohibition WP:ARBPIA3 remedy obviously supersedes all other remedies. It explicitly states that the remedy may be enforced by reverts. One only needs to update the text of ARBPIA template to match it. Guerillero's proposed text seems ok to me. For Huldra, in the future, you may want to use the magic word "WP:ARBPIA3" in your edit summaries, to instantly get a "win" (example of me doing it is here, and WOLAF here). The wikilawyering by WOLAF, arguing that Huldra should be reblocked, is truly disgusting; I will not comment on it any further. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 11:14, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Guerillero and Salvio giuliano: May I suggest that the template have a wording which suggests that the editor (who is reverting the IP/editors with less than 30/500), link to WP:ARBPIA3 in the edit summary? It is a non-binding, simple suggestion that would save a lot of trouble, and makes it clear to the IP/editor as to why they are being reverted. This would both avoid WP:BITE to genuine newbies and give a clear direction to trolls/socks that they are wasting their time, as well as a pointer to uninvolved admins like Ks0stm who don't know about this. (See my examples above). Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 02:12, 15 December 2015 (UTC) Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 02:13, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Guerillero: To clarify, I am simply suggesting that the remedy include the wording in addition to the fixing of the wording you mentioned before. That would just serve as a public service announcement, kind of like warning signs on cigarette packs. Of course the wording of the template needs to be fixed, I am all in favour of that. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 03:53, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- I myself have a clean block log, and I kind of understand Huldra's point. I have never been harassed like she has, so I will defer to their judgement about whether it will be used in the future. If ArbCom is concerned that this will set a precedent, I don't see any grounds for this. This is a very unusual situation concerning a very unusual remedy concerning a very toxic area. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 06:06, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Guerillero: To clarify, I am simply suggesting that the remedy include the wording in addition to the fixing of the wording you mentioned before. That would just serve as a public service announcement, kind of like warning signs on cigarette packs. Of course the wording of the template needs to be fixed, I am all in favour of that. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 03:53, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Huldra
For the record: I do not want any sanctions against Ks0stm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) ...we all do mistakes, and he did unblock me very soon afterwards, and apologised. Also, for the record, I *did* report the "new" editor to the vandal board. (If anyone checks, you will see that what they tried to add to the article was not actually supported by the sources. So IMO it was both a BLP-violation, in addition to ARBPIA3 violation.)
However, I would *really* like to see my block-log wiped clean. User:Thryduulf: I think the gloating here would be very disheartening to any editor. Please rev-del my block-log....and then we can all move along, Huldra (talk) 00:13, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Seraphimblade: The block has been, and will be used against me, again. Guaranteed. (I edit in a .....rough neighbourhood… there are always plenty of new editors like “When Other Legends Are Forgotten” around.)
- Does not this come under Non-contentious housekeeping? I know one thing: If this block-log stands it will make me deeply regret that I removed the BLP-violations, like I did. And also I will never remove BLP-violations again, when I risk filling up my block-history. It is as simple as that. I repeat; this is all very disheartening. Huldra (talk) 20:22, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- User:Kingsindian: when using TW, (which I mostly used for revering the BLP, as it is quick), then we don´t get an opportunity to have an edit-line. I did try (and thought I had) said it was a BLP-violation in the first revert.
- User:DGG : I don´t understand you. If the discussion here ends with concluding that the block can be rev-delled, and it is, well then, wonderful! That the discussion remains open here, does not worry me.
- And that several of you have had, and live quite easily with wrong blocks is a bit different from my situation. None of you edit in the IP area. To be blunt: I don´t think you know what it is like. I know admins and arb.commers can be harassed and threatened, but I have been more or less systematically targeted for 5 years now, from Grawp, his copy-cats, and, if I can judge from their political views: Kahane supporters. (Typically people who admire people like Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir: not nice people.) So I get this if I comment on AN/I, or this, this or this during normal editing. You can wade through my log-page, if you like. Again: this will be used against me, again. Guaranteed. Please do not make my editing-life more difficult than it already is. Huldra (talk) 00:10, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by LjL
Some people above say that WP:3RR restrictions still applied, but this seems like a clear case where they don't per WP:3RRBLP, and Huldra did in fact mention she was reverting a BLP ("bop") violation in her first revert's summary. Furthermore, she stated she was under the (most probably correct) impression that the editor she was reverting was a WP:SOCK of a blocked editor, which is of course another exception to 3RR.
Therefore, given there was in fact no misbehavior at all on Huldra's part, I not only support the unblock, but I second the request (which actually comes from the admin who originally blocked her) to strike the block from her otherwise 10-year clean block log. LjL (talk) 00:24, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Thryduulf and Seraphimblade: I might misunderstand something, but why do you seem to think that a revdel of the block would reflect badly on the blocking admin (any more than a note would, anyway)? Having two blocks in the block logs, even if one of them serves as a clarification of the previous one, is surely not the same in the eyes of the editor mistakenly blocked as having a genuinely clean block log - which she deserves, as I think we agree she has done nothing wrong (by the way, I think she did report the matter to a board, possibly WP:AIV, so she did her "duty" in that respect, too, though I don't have a diff and you should ask her about that). LjL (talk) 02:56, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Slakr
As a heads up, at one of my usual haunts, WP:AN3, I was already assuming 1RR/3RR exceptions for reverting 30/500s in response to this remedy, as this seems self-evident and logical given a lack of active technical enforcement alternatives (e.g., no edit filter or new usergroup+page-protection option). As such, I had already made changes to {{Editnotice IP 1RR}}
toward the beginning of this month with that assumption in mind so that it also reflected that it's an exception to 1RR to enforce the remedy. I only stumbled upon this now, but given the input here, I'm assuming that's what everyone's agreeing with anyway, but should Arbcom believe differently, feel free to either ping me to update it or obviously just update it with whatever wording's appropriate. :P --slakr\ talk / 00:51, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000
The proposal by Guerillero is ambiguous and I'm not even sure what it is supposed to mean. The premise "When not impeding the enforcement of the General Prohibition" lexically appears to refer to the actions of the editors who are limited, but I expect it is intended to refer to the actions of an enforcing administrator. Who exactly is impeding what, exactly? Please rewrite it more clearly. Zerotalk 08:11, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Palestine-Israel articles (1RR): Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Palestine-Israel articles (1RR): Arbitrator views and discussion
- There are two questions here: how do past cases interact with previous cases and how far can one go when enforcing our new General Prohibition. I am going to tackle each one individually.
From everything that I have seen as an arb and as a clerk, newer arbcom decisions overrule older decisions when they conflict (lex posterior derogat priori for you legal nerds). Normally this involves
strikingtext that conflicts. However, the 1RR as it stands is such a convoluted mess that this is impossible. If we were going to reform it, which I think we should, the remedy should be no more than a few lines. Something like When not impeding the enforcement of the General Prohibition, editors are limited to one revert per page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict per day. Editors who violate this 1RR restriction may be blocked without warning by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense. sounds the best to me.As for how to enforce the new GP, I think, as the drafter who voted against it, that This prohibition may be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of Pending Changes, and appropriate edit filters. pretty much gives any use a unlimited authority to revert someone who is violating it. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:59, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- I have no issue with a rev delete --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 14:14, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Kingsindian: While that is a quick fix, and a decent one, I once spent a month working for a retired diesel mechanic who had a classic Western Pennsylvania last name. He always liked reminding me and the other guys who I worked with that he didn't care if we messed up. What he cared about was that we didn't "pass the buck" and owned up to our mistakes. I think that arbcom needs to adopt the same philosophy. Quick fixes pass the buck onto the AE admins to effectively rewrite our remedies, in an unwritten fashion, so that they work together. We can fix this quagmire, why shouldn't we? --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:40, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- I have no issue with a rev delete --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 14:14, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- My take on this is is that if someone is enforcing the general prohibition then 1RR does not apply. If the edit being reverted would be considered good or potentially good if it was made by someone who was not a new user then 3RR does apply. In this case the edit was original research and possibly a BLP violation, so there was no possibility of it being accepted regardless of who made it and so I see it as exempt from the 3RR too. However whenever anyone finds themselves getting close to or exceeding 3 reverts they absolutely report the matter at ANI or the edit warring noticeboard so that other editors can verify their interpretion and block as necessary. I also support Guerillero's suggestion of allowing new users to be blocked if violate the 1RR even for a first offence. Ks0stm's block was though made in good faith and they should not be sanctioned for it, and for the same reason I'm initially reluctant to revdel the entry in the block log (I am open to having my mind changed about this however) but I have no problem with a very short clarification block if Huldra desires. Thryduulf (talk) 09:06, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Seraphimblade regarding the revdel - it's not about reflecting badly on anyone. WP:REVDEL#Log redation states "Log redaction (outside of the limited scope of RD#2 for the move and delete logs) is intended solely for grossly improper content, and is not permitted for ordinary matters; the community needs to be able to review users' block logs and other logs whether or not proper." This block was not "grossly improper" and there is nothing libellous or offensive in the summary, meaning there is no need to hide that this good faith mistake was made. Thryduulf (talk) 15:18, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
- For the purpose of applying 3RR (and, obviously, 1RR as well), reverting actions performed by banned users, and sockpuppets of banned or blocked users does not count as a revert. Huldra's actions were not in violation of the restriction and the editor should not have been blocked. We should amend the restriction so that it doesn't create similar problems in future and here's my proposal: clear vandalism of whatever origin and edits made by IP editors and accounts with less than 500 edits and 30 days tenure may be reverted without restriction.
Reverts of edits made by anonymous IP editors that are not vandalism are exempt from 1RR but are subject to the usual rules on edit warring. Salvio Let's talk about it! 12:03, 14 December 2015 (UTC) - I wouldn't support revision deleting block log entries except in the exceptionally rare case that the block log message contained private or sensitive information. If a block was mistaken, a notation to that regard will serve. Other than that, I think it's been pretty well said by my colleagues above. Seraphimblade Talk to me 02:21, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- @LjL: I didn't say anything about "reflecting badly on the blocking admin", and it has nothing to do with that. The presumption is always in favor of transparency and not hiding things that happened just because they were in error. I see no reason here to deviate from that. Huldra's block log is clean as things stand right now; the blocking admin unblocked with a clear statement that the block was erroneous and should not have been placed to start with. There's no need, from there, to hide the fact that it ever happened at all, or really to take any other action whatever. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:18, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Guerillero's suggested modification of the remedy. But the usual course for mistaken blocks is a clarifying entry on the log, and it is sufficient in this case. If we revdel it, everything here would still remain, so I do not see what the revdel would accomplish. DGG ( talk ) 01:32, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think it makes sense to add an exemption to the 1RR remedy that allows people to revert editors who are not allowed to be editing. I also agree that any action against Ks0stm would be unnecessary, as it quite clearly was a good-faith attempt to enforce a remedy. I'm not terribly keen to revision-delete Huldra's block log—we have been asked to hide block log entries for unjustified blocks in the past, and I don't believe we've ever granted them. Block logs are simply logs of past blocks, warranted and otherwise; they are not meant to be some sort of badge of honor, nor are they meant to be an at-a-glance record of a user's behavior. I don't have a clean block log simply because of my own error a few years ago, but I don't think it's ever once been used against me. GorillaWarfare (talk) 05:06, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed/ We do need to add such an exemption. How about Salvio's "l: clear vandalism of whatever origin and edits made by IP editors and accounts with less than 500 edits and 30 days tenure may be reverted without restriction."? Doug Weller (talk) 14:06, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Doug. NativeForeigner Talk 23:14, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Motion: Palestine-Israel articles 1RR
- For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators, not counting 3 who are inactive and 1 who has abstained or recused, so 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Proposed:
- (1) The General 1RR restriction that is part of the Palestine-Israel articles case is rescinded including all modifications of the remedy.
(2) In its place, the following remedy is enacted: When not impeding the enforcement of the General Prohibition, editors are limited to one revert per page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict per day. Editors who violate this 1RR restriction may be blocked without warning by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense.
- Support
- As proposer. It has the same outcome as Salvio's but doesn't try to salvage the christmas tree bill that is the current 1RR and uses less words. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 19:01, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Abstain
- At the moment as I don't understand how Salvio's suggestion of "clear vandalism of whatever origin and edits made by IP editors and accounts with less than 500 edits and 30 days tenure may be reverted without restriction." is covered by this. It appears to contradict it. Doug Weller talk 19:28, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Doug Weller: The GP already allows for users to revert edits made by IP editors and accounts with less than 500 edits and 30 days tenure an unlimited number of times. If you want to throw in an explicit exemption for vandalism, I think one is implicitly included,I would have no issues --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:05, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Guerillero: We've been criticised for our use of language. Can you suggest something better than "while not impeding the enfocement of the..."? Doug Weller talk 11:17, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Clarification request: Genetically modified organisms (1)
Initiated by JzG at 19:58, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- Genetically modified organisms arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
- JzG (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
- SageRad (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- wuerzele (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Statement by JzG
There was some discussion as to potential ambiguity in the scope of the topic ban, stated as "all pages relating to genetically modified organisms and agricultural chemicals, broadly construed". SageRad raises an interesting edge case: agent orange. Technically, I think this would be classed as a chemical weapon. Its components are 2,4,5-T and 2,4-D, both of which are clearly agricultural chemicals. The harm caused by agent orange appears to be primarily due to contamination with dioxins, which are not, themselves, agricultural chemicals.
At the risk of stirring a hornets' nest (or at best tilting at windmills), it would seem to me reasonable that SageRad would be allowed to edit the articles on agent orange and dioxins, but should not edit the articles on 2,4,5-T or 2,4-D. That would seem to me to be a reasonable interpretation of the topic ban, given that 2,4,5-T and 2,4-D are IMO not especially controversial, so sufficiently distanced from glyphosate, Monsanto and GMOs, the true locus of dispute. Clearly, however, if he were to pitch in and do so without clarification, it might be perceived as a breaching experiment, so he has, wisely, sought clarification. I do not think the Talk page in question is going to yield that clarification any time soon, so I bring it here for more formal consideration.
I believe it would be pragmatic, just and fair to allow SageRad to edit these articles partly on the basis that otherwise it would be hard to find any article on a topic of interest to the environmental movement that was out of scope, and partly because Wikipedia's justice is intended to be reformative, not retributive, and I think this would offer an are of editing where SageRad could be productive, where he is interested and knowledgeable, and where he could establish a reputation for conflict-free editing which would, in time, restore his honour.
I'd also like to ask that SageRad's comments below be considered as privileged, i.e. exempt from the topic ban, but would counsel caution until that's clarified. It is notable that some sanctioned editors are already attracting unwelcome attention due to talk page and meta-commentary in various venues, I do 'not think SageRad is one of these and I have absolutely no wish to make things worse. Guy (Help!) 19:58, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Addendum: It's also pretty clear that Monsanto is core to the dispute, so edits like [5] might be more problematic even though they do not actually relate to GMOs or agricultural chemicals, other than in the involvement of the one company which, more than any other, acts as a focal point for the righteous anger of the anti-GMO and anti-pesticide lobby.
- So: I think the scope is unclear in that it does not include a key subject within the original dispute and does include things that are not really at issue within the original dispute. Guy (Help!) 18:28, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Wuerzle: I asked about SageRad because he asked the question. My question is about scope. The second example per Addendum above is another example of an edge case, this time an edit which isn't included but people would probably think it should be. The proposal at the foot of this discussion seems to me to be heading towards the somewhat revised which I think several people would accept as a more accurate reflection of the locus of dispute. I could go on but there's no real point - people who assume I am evil will continue to do so whatever I say. Believe it or not, I am actually trying to do the right thing here. Guy (Help!) 22:29, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by SageRad
Well, i'm finally able to write a statement here. I know the terms of the topic ban and i abide by them. I won't edit about agricultural chemicals or GMOs. Simple as that. I've been abiding by that. Agent Orange is not an agricultural chemical, and on that article i was just tying up one edit to include photo-essays based on a discussion that had built consensus over the last month or two. That's all.
I've been abiding by the topic ban, not editing on agricultural chemicals or GMOs. I've never even been that interested in editing about GMOs anyway. Glyphosate was the main article of any real scientific substance that i edited in the topic area, and it's nice to see how the Sturm und Drang continues in my absence. It comforts me to see a data point that i was not the sole source of any conflict there. It feels about the same when i take a glance on the talk page there, but of course i recognize the topic ban. It's the realpolitik here. I think the topic ban definition is clear enough. Let's call it a day. We've been through enough with this.
If it's an agricultural chemical, i won't edit it. Even if it's phosphate fertilizer. But like Mark Bernstein said, farms use water but i'd feel free to edit about water if there was any reason to, because water is used in 10,000,000 ways, not primarily agriculture. Many pesticides contain some chlorides, even sodium chloride. But i've read the fascinating book called Salt which is about the cultural history of salt in human society, and if i felt like editing about salt to expand that article, i wouldn't feel inhibited just because salt is a trace ingredient in some pesticide mixtures. I hope that's clear enough, and i hope it is alright as an interpretation of "agricultural chemicals and GMOs". If it's a chemical for which a primary use is in agriculture, i would not edit on it. If it's something tangentially used on farms among other places, like diesel fuel, for instance (it runs tractors but it also runs everything else on the planet) then i would feel ok to edit on it. Hope that makes sense. Thanks for taking your time to consider this. SageRad (talk) 18:44, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
SageRad (talk) 18:44, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by ScrapIronIV
I will quote from the case decision: "SageRad is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to genetically modified organisms and agricultural chemicals, broadly construed; appeals of this ban may be requested no earlier than twelve months since the date the case closed."
Whether for military use, or otherwise, Agent Orange is clearly an agricultural chemical. It is defined on the article page as an herbicide and defoliant. It does not even need to be "broadly construed" make that determination. Mixing two herbicides to make a third type of herbicide does not make it stop being an herbicide, and herbicides are agricultural chemicals. Scr★pIronIV 20:14, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Looie496
I urge ArbCom not to fall into the futility of trying to micromanage remedies. The remedy is stated as precisely as it needs to be. And JzG should leave efforts to help SageRad to other editors. Looie496 (talk) 20:43, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- I will further note that the statement by Wuerzele below massively violates his/her topic ban. I have informed him/her of this and urged that the statement be removed. Looie496 (talk) 11:46, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by AlbinoFerret
I am not involved in the topic area but took part in the recent arbcom case on GMO's. The request for clarification is a good one. The name of the case was "Genetically modified organisms" and the scope should match the area of the topic that was discussed, namely Genetically modified organisms and topics that relate to it. The scope should not be widened to include any chemical that can possibly be used on plants, it should be chemicals as related to genetically modified organisms. After all water is a chemical, its sprayed on plants, even GMO's. Should Water be included? Perhaps if the article references uses with GMO's. But not about a river, or a lake, or a water cannon used by the military. Agent orange is a military chemical, not a general purpose agricultural chemical. It is a herbicide, not used on GMO's, and from what I can tell not used in farming. I urge the arbs to clarify the scope of these banns in that they are within the scope of GMO's. AlbinoFerret 23:21, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
I will also point out that JzG's bad behaviour in this area is continuing from the time of the case [6]. He was excluded from the findings because of not being a named party, something that should be looked at again. His edits are not that of a careful admin in a contentious area seeking consensus before making large changes. He should know better. AlbinoFerret 23:26, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
I will point out that WP:BANEX should allow the banned editors to post here, per banex "asking for necessary clarifications about the scope of the ban." is allowed. Since arbcom gave the ban, I can think of no better place for clarification than the noticeboard set up for that exact purpose. AlbinoFerret 13:45, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
The current wording of "agricultural chemicals" is sufficient. The question is, are chemicals not used for agriculture, or " the practice of farming, including cultivation of the soil for the growing of crops and the rearing of animals to provide food and other products." covered under this ban? Agent orange is a military chemical that to my knowledge has no agricultural use. If so can an arb please point to me where in the case this was brought up and the evidence/FOF presented that supports including non agricultural chemicals? AlbinoFerret 21:02, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
These are chemicals made by Monsanto, are they under the ban?
- polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) (in lubricant for electric motors, might be on a farm)
- saccharin (it replaced a natural sweetener, from a plant raised on farms)
- aspartame (it replaced a natural sweetener, from a plant raised on farms)
- polystyrene (you can grow plants in a Styrofoam cup)
- How about Chemical weapons[7] (they might kill plants and livestock to)
- Agent orange (its another chemical weapon,[8] it is not an agricultural chemical.)
This is the tip of the iceberg, and a path to a punitive slippery slope. Topic banns should be based on the case evidence and behaviour discussed in a case. Not on what could be or what might be or fears of those who engaged in a battleground that caused the case to happen. AlbinoFerret 01:19, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Capeo
AlbinoFerret, the case also revolved heavily around a specific herbicide hence the addition of "agricultural chemicals". Given that I can't see how SageRad's TB wouldn't include another herbicide whose two components are agricultural herbicides. That said, you're not wrong about the wording of the TB being less than ideal. I said as much on the PD talk page. Capeo (talk) 23:39, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
Simply adding "commercially produced" before "agricultural chemicals" would get closer to what I assume was the point of the topic bans. Water is a chemical. I don't believe the intent of the TB would to exclude water. The chemicals involved in photosynthesis? Or animal metabolism? Arguments could made for either. Silly arguments but I'd think avoiding silly arguments is the whole point. Capeo (talk) 02:53, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
In actu, "GMOs, commercially produced agricultural chemicals and the companies that produce them" all broadly construed covers everything. Capeo (talk) 19:03, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
DrChrissy, no, Trypto needs not do any such thing. It's about clarifying an existing TB. Nothing is being re-litigated here. You've already pursued the proper avenues of appeal. Let them run their course and in the meantime just abide by the TB. Your statement, strictly speaking, breaks your TB yet again as it doesn't really apply to asking for clarification or is it an appeal. Capeo (talk) 20:33, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Okay, Arbs, any other admins looking on, can someone get across to DrChrissy that they are indeed currently under a topic ban. Aside from already being at AE for blatantly breaking it [9] well after it was abundantly clarified they're now going after an editor here for simply attempting to do what this board is meant to do. Capeo (talk) 21:17, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by MarkBernstein
Contrary to the opinions expressed by some editors here, it is entirely reasonable that, if ArbCom is going to contrive specialized topic bans, those topic bans be clear and unambiguous. I hold a Ph.D. in chemistry, and I do not know what they intended to mean by the phrase "agricultural chemical". Is it a chemical that is used by farmers, or a chemical that impacts plant growth? It presumably is not meant to be a chemical derived from plants, but that, too, is a plausible interpretation. Is water an agricultural chemical, or is the intended meaning limited to commercial products?
Members of ArbCom will recall fondly the questions raised by the meaning of "gender-related controversy" in the Gamergate decision. Those active in AE2 are, of course, intensely aware that the language of the topic ban in Gender Gap Task Force has been sufficiently problematic that several arbitrators now wish to withdraw that decision.
Rather than reaching for the broadest construction, a better approach might specify chemical products of the agricultural divisions of Monsanto, Dow, and Dupont.
Vague topic bans simply invite opposing editors to game the system to procure the inevitable and desired indefinite blocks; they increase disruption. Perhaps that is ArbCom’s goal here, but otherwise, it is entirely reasonable to expect that topic bans be clear. MarkBernstein (talk) 00:32, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Wuerzele
(edit conflict) Arriving here "late", ironically, as I was the first to edit Talk:Agent Orange after the 11 December arbcom decision. I dont know the arb com process and nobody alerted me of this page, not even fellow editor SageRad who edited Agent Orange after me.
I attempted to tie up unfinished consensual business from >1 month ago, finalizing which of the 3 photojournalism refs suggested by CFCF to add, in order to replace one that Keilana had removed as 'poor source' and which SageRad had reinserted twice. I had stepped in on 14 November 2015 , ie one month before the arb com decision to mediate between the parties which is contained in this section.
- I posted my suggestion on the talkpage 01:10, 16 December 2015(→Removal of Daily Mail article: CNN or/and AlJazeera source
- King reverted my talk page post immediately 02:24, 16 December 2015 Remove post by topic-banned editor without reading the talksection, as became evident later on.
- Sage renamed the section and wrote 'ok', 03:14, 16 December 2015 (→Including photojournalism in article: Sounds good. Let's do it.)
- King also reverted Sage after just 1 hour 04:33, 16 December Remove post by topic-banned editor.) arriving at 2RR
- Sage restored his comment 11:30, 16 December 2015 Sorry buddy but this is not in the scope of the GMO case. Don't delete other people's comments. That's not ok.)
- Sage restored my Talk comment. 11:39, 16 December 2015 ((→Including photojournalism in article: Oh look. KoA also deleted another user's comments besides mine. Who put KoA in charge of the world?)
- Sage inserted refs 11:56, 16 December 2015 (→Further reading: Add photojournalism section to "Further reading" section as per talk page.)here.
- ScrapIronIV reverted Sage with antivandalism tool Twinkle [ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Agent_Orange&diff=next&oldid=695484579%7C 15:59, 16 December 2015 : RV topic banned editor. (TW))].
- NE Ent reinserted the CNN ref Revision as of 01:18, 18 December 2015 (photojournalism per talk page discussion).
- King reverted NE Ent (=3RR) Revision as of 01:29, 18 December 2015 (Editors were topic banned prior to the recent discussion, so best for us avoid reinserting their edits at this time.) again making a false claim because the "recent discussion" was clearly before the arbcom decision.
- King hatted Sage's and my Talk comments 02:01, 18 December 2015 (→Including photojournalism in article: comment) and posts a reprimand at NE ent to "refrain from inserting content by the topic-banned editors that occurred after their topic ban. If you check the article history, the edits have now been removed twice from the article specifying this". Aside from the sentence being ungrammatical (inserting that occurred?) it is again factually wrong as the content was decided upon BEFORE the Arbcom decision
- NE Ent posted a comment 02:39, 18 December 2015 (→Including photojournalism in article: Consensus is for adding). Irony no2: NE Ent had checked not only the "article history", but also read the talk page and realized that a group of 4 editors decided to add the ref (even if 2 of them voiced this in an area that KOA considers GMO topic banned, it was 2+1=3 for adding the ref!)unlike KOA. And that edit stands as of now. (KOA never apologized for this)
Irony 3: It never occurred to me that the ARbCom decision would be about all existing agricultural chemicals. Proof: go back to the very first page, it was me that WIDENED the topic from GMO (where I was not even active) to GMO related chemicals, in particular glyphosate and 2,4D which are indispensable for GMO crops, because engineered to resist it.
The committee MUST "clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information" (per filing instructions of this section)
GMO core pages
due to arbcom's sloppy handling of the GMO case, there are numerous open questions. i made a 660 word comment on the arbcomdecision talk page on 11/14/15, a page that over a month became filled by walls of text (as this one is poised to be, because the same editors are doing the same here, no word limit exists just teh advice to "be succinct"), noisy like to an echo chamber essentially without interactions with arbcom (3 or 4 arbitrators posted) to reply or resolve issues.
the first, most pressing issue should be to exactly outline the scope.
I suggest that the following WP articles absolutely be covered as WP GMO articles
- Bt cotton
- Cartagena Protocol on Biosafety
- Enlist Weed Control System
- Genetically modified bird
- Genetically modified crops
- Genetically modified fish
- Genetically modified food
- Genetically modified food controversies
- Genetically modified insect
- Genetically modified maize
- Genetically modified organism
- Genetically modified soybean
- Genetically modified tomato
- Gilles-Éric Séralini
- Glyphosate
- Golden rice
- March Against Monsanto
- Monsanto Canada Inc v Schmeiser
- Regulation of the release of genetically modified organisms
- Séralini affair
- Syngenta
- Vani Hari
- Kevin Folta
--Wuerzele (talk) 05:58, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
pages not in the majority about GMO-crops and /or agricultural chemicals
the following pages touch on an aspect of the pages above, but are in the majority not about the arbcom case, so out of the scope.
- Agent Orange- a herbicide, but no connection whatsoever to GMO's -mostly a)of historical interest b) an env contaminant with epigenetic significance c) a Vietnam War biological weapon. I thank JzG's comment explaining his position on Agent Orange; I think he sees this point like i do.
- pesticides other than 2,4D and glyphosate]], namely herbicides, fungicides, insecticides and other biocides, which per EPA includes antimicrobials. Organophosphates have nothing to do with the GMO case, neither the neonicotinoids.
- agrochemicals -aside from glyphosate and 2,4D and Enlist Duo above I can not think of any others that are specific/ indispensable for GMO. It makes no sense to ban fertilizers like Ammonia, or ground spread like lime etc
- Federation of German Scientists: recently Alexbrn warned prokaryotes on his talkpage User_talk:Prokaryotes#1RR not to further edit this site which he felt had GMO-related content only because the group awards an annual Whistleblower Prize, which went to Seralini this year. Yet Alexbrn reverted significantly here by removing a source and replacing it with an opinion piece with tendentious content, violating NPOV ( teh other source should have remained for balance)-- in large part the site has NOTHING to do with GMO.
- Monsanto- it produces GMO's yes, but in the majority ?
- Monsanto legal cases: most are not about GMO's, but about PCB's,
- Genetic engineering: this describes the general technique to make a GMO, used in microbes, Mammals, Fish, Invertebrates, none of which have to do with the arbcomcase, only genetically modified plants, GMO crops and GMO food.
- Organic farming - not using GMO crops is one aspect but certainly NOT teh majority of the topic
- Polychlorinated biphenyl- no GMO-agr chemical content
- precautionary principle
pages unclear
- Monarch (butterfly) yes, evidence of harm by GMO crops is one aspect , but in the majority of teh page? Why shouldnt I be allowed to add a photo or any other detail that has nothing to do with GMO crops? --Wuerzele (talk) 07:19, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Questions
- Looie496 accused me on my talk page of violating topicban by posting the above here on this page! He doesn't say why, yet admonishes me to read instructions. is he right, arbcom members, DGG, Guerillero? is he not? and why ? should he not strike his comment ?--Wuerzele (talk) 20:25, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- Guerillero, Looie496 accused me on my talk page of violating the topic ban by posting here on this page. Is he correct in that ? i would like to know. can you please answer? i read your post which mentions a traveling circus ( ? I dont know what you mean by that) but you did not reply to this question.--Wuerzele (talk) 11:35, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
- DGG thanks for your comment but i was misunderstood: does my posting here on this page to clarify eh scope violate a topic ban , or does it not ?--Wuerzele (talk) 11:35, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
- JzG why did you address only SageRad in this clarification request? It certainly affected me too, as I edited Agent Orange before him and Sage reacted to my post as demonstrated in the section of diffs above.(talk) 20:50, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- JzG you just posted a message named "reply" but you didnt reply to this question (and kindly ping me when you address me).--Wuerzele (talk) 23:12, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- JzG is your clarification request about more than Agent Orange? It looks unclear to me. Thanks.--Wuerzele (talk) 20:50, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- JzG you just replied that your clarification request is about clarifying scope in general. Then why did you not inform all parties ? --Wuerzele (talk) 23:16, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- Seraphimblade thanks for engaging. first can you tell me if my posting here to get clarification on the scope violates the topic ban or not ?
- Second, please look at my lists above: what do you think about PCB's, agent orange, ammonia, John Deere, lime, precautionary principle etc. are they part of the arbcom decision? you see what I mean? someone has to decide which articles need to be tagged, so we must be concrete.
- lastly, do you think it is ok that only sage rad was informed that there is a scope discussion here? doesnt it clearly affect all parties of the the GMO case proceeding? thank you for your time.--Wuerzele (talk) 11:35, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Minor4th
I have not read any other comments, so this is totally off the cuff. I would not like to see SageRad's edits on Agent Orange be the reason for further sanctions, but an argument can be made that the article is within the scope of her topic ban because: 1. its active ingredient is an herbicide, and 2. it was manufactured by Monsanto.
This kind of ambiguity is going to come up time and again, and the arbs should have been a little more careful in drafting the PD's. On the other hand, I don't know why SageRad would push it by editing the article- he should leave everything even tangentially related to the topic area for a while. Minor4th 02:00, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- Just add Monsanto to the topic bans and that should cover it. We don't need to tiptoe around this. Minor4th 20:37, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Tryptofish
Are we already at the point of needing clarification? Sigh. Do we know whether SageRad or any of the other editors who were topic banned really want to edit about these chemicals? Does ArbCom have the scientific expertise to really make these distinctions? Perhaps you should just point out "broadly construed", advise that testing the boundaries is imprudent, and decline to parse the chemistry any further. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:31, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Guerillero: about possible revisions to the wording. It needs to include the phrase "agricultural biotechnology" that is in the DS (see yet another discussion at the Noticeboard TP), and in my opinion, that negates any need to mention companies, because the companies are obviously in the agri biotech field and "broadly construed" applies to them just as much as it applies to persons (and let's not go listing person categories too!). I think there is a problem with Capeo's idea of "commercially produced agricultural chemicals" because that gets into fertilizers and preservatives, ad infinitum.
- But "pesticides and related chemicals" is an improvement indeed (although I'm sure someone is going to whine about whether or not water is "related"). So, I suggest: all pages related to genetically modified organisms, agricultural biotechnology, or pesticides and related chemicals, broadly construed (with "organisms" changed to "plants" in DrChrissy's case). How about that? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:32, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
-
- @DrChrissy: You seem to forget that this is the existing language, and it was intended to allow you to edit about animals. If we make it "organisms", as for the other affected editors, you will be prohibited from editing about GM animals. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:27, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- DrChrissy, for what will be the last time, I am reminding you that I am not proposing anything new about your topic ban. It is the existing wording. You have to wait a year before asking ArbCom to consider lifting the topic ban, so there is no point in asking me why the topic ban was imposed. You are digging yourself into a hole, and you need to drop it. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:45, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- @DrChrissy: You seem to forget that this is the existing language, and it was intended to allow you to edit about animals. If we make it "organisms", as for the other affected editors, you will be prohibited from editing about GM animals. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:27, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
-
- @Wuerzele: Although I realize that you did not ask me, I'm pretty sure that Looie was saying, correctly, that although you are free to ask about your topic ban, you should not be making proposals about how content is to be treated for editors generally, as in your lists of pages. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:30, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
The more that I think about this, the more I think that the wording of the case decision and the topic bans should be left as it is, for now. The important thing is simply to make it very, very clear to the topic-banned editors that "broadly construed" means what it says, and that it is a very bad idea to try to test it or to comment about it from a distance. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:22, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Guerillero: @Seraphimblade: @Thryduulf: @Doug Weller: I see that each of you is considering a wording change involving "commercially produced agricultural chemicals". Please let me remind you of my comment a short way above, that has the green font in it. "Commercially produced agricultural chemicals" would include fertilizers, food preservatives, and on and on. The more specific phrase "pesticides and related chemicals" works better – and better still, I think, would be to leave the wording alone and just remind editors that "broadly construed" means what it says. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:14, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by NE Ent (GMO)
Agent orange is in Category:Auxinic herbicides which is a sub-cat of Category:Herbicides which is a sub of Category:Agricultural_chemicals , so it's reasonable to say the topic ban would apply Given the AC/DS and 1RR restrictions also apply to agricultural chemicals, and there are, for example, 100 pages in Category:Pesticides (another subcat), while the existing scope is sufficient to minimize disruption related to GMO article editing, it does appear to be unnecessarily broad. NE Ent 02:36, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
@Guerillero: The natural language "and" is actually ambiguous and derives its meaning from context; while Karen Carpenter was no doubt feeling down on the union () of Rainy Days and Mondays, the narrator searching for Love Potion No. 9 is only going to be successful finding Madam Rue's pad at the intersection () of "34th and Vine." While I understand frustration with editors arguing about the edges of topic bans, the greater issue here is the scope of the 1RR and AC/DS: while useful as a tool for managing disputes such restrictions do impeded the normal editing process. NE Ent 03:02, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
- Guerillero, it's called being old. NE Ent 11:43, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Kingofaces43
First, I think what Tryptofish said in their section should be the main consideration here and pass on potentially narrowing wording too much.
If Arbs do feel an amendment is needed for clarity, I'm going to put on my entomologist/pesticide background hat on for a second. I'd suggest replacing agricultural chemicals with pesticides and related chemicals. The term pesticide covers these specific types (e.g., herbicides, insecticides, etc.) listed in the table. A pesticide includes the active ingredient (e.g., glyphosate) and other major components in the mixture such as surfactants or shelf life extenders (PCBs are one past example[10]). The "non-active" ingredients are why I included related chemicals to reduce definition gaming. Some pesticides contain multiple active ingredients, such as Agent Orange, but mixtures are still a pesticide nonetheless.
Most pesticides are multi-use where some are used for agriculture, urban/home use, backyard, etc. I believe the drafters included the term agricultural chemicals as a broad term for pesticides, or maybe they weren't aware they are used in broader areas than just agriculture that are not always easily separated by use in a topic. If so, using the term pesticides shouldn't change the intended meaning at all. It would also prevent the bans from extending to unneeded topics like fertilizer. I can think of only a few controversial agricultural chemicals that wouldn't be covered by this change, but they aren't the locus of this dispute. I don't believe clarification is needed on companies as "a topic ban covers all pages (not only articles) broadly related to the topic. . ."[11] That would mean that since DuPont is a major producer of pesticides, topic banned editors should be staying away from the page altogether with the broadly construed qualifier.
If other editors or Arbs can think of instances where my proposed wording could allow editing in a problem area, I'm happy to talk wordsmithing and definitions. This should be more concise than just agricultural chemical though and cut down on the potential for overly broad application of the bans. However, I would suggest not "fixing" it until we've actually found something that's broke first. Arbs could also just simply clarify here without amendment that agricultural chemicals can include pesticides of any sort, and leave the agricultural chemical bit as a discretionary call for admins (e.g., water being far enough away from the locus of dispute). Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:37, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by DrChrissy
I am making this statement according to WP:BANEX to clarify the wording-change proposed by User:Tryptofish. Tryptofish has suggested[12] "...with "organisms" changed to "plants" in DrChrissy's case". I would like to remind the community that WP:Banning policy states "The purpose of a topic ban is to forbid an editor from making edits related to a certain topic area where their contributions have been disruptive, but to allow them to edit the rest of Wikipedia." Tryptofish must produce evidence that I have been disruptive on pages relating to genetically modified plants.DrChrissy (talk) 20:17, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
@Tryptofish: By suggesting the wording change, you are effectively making a statement that you believe I have been disruptive in editing the area of genetically modified plants. An editor should be prepared to substantiate such allegations by providing evidence. Where is this evidence? Please feel free to repeat any pertinent evidence presented during the case.DrChrissy (talk) 20:41, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
@Tryptofish: I have emailed ArbCom to request an amendment on the basis that there is not a single shred of evidence presented either in the case or elsewhere that I have been disruptive to editing the area of genetically modified plants. I have been found guilty and had a topic ban imposed on me with a complete absence of evidence. Your proposed word changing further maligns my name by again accusing me of disruptive editing of genetically modified plants. So, I challenge you to present the evidence of where I have been disruptive.DrChrissy (talk) 20:58, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- I am seeking clarification of the DS, 1RR and my topic ban currently worded as "agricultural chemicals". It has been suggested that "pesticides and related chemicals" could be used instead. Unfortunately, I feel these are both too broad. This is especially because some editors are arguing forceably that the simple mention of the term which is the subject of the sanction thereby makes that page part of the sanction. This will make sensible editing almost impossible. In my own case, I mainly edit articles on animals, their behaviour and welfare. The article Colony collapse disorder in bees has a section on pesticides. Does this mean the article is subject to DS and 1R to all editors and I am topic banned from it? The article Dolphin mentions pesticides. Does this mean the article is subject to DS and 1R for all editors and I am topic banned from it? The article Sheep mentions pesticides...and so on. Fortunately, I believe there is a simple and suitable remedy for this, although it may not be favourable for some. Rather than a topic ban, have a page ban. It seemed to me that the major focus of disruption leading to "agricultural chemicals" was on the Glyphosate page. Why not have the ban limited to just the Glyphosate page and it's Talk page. (There may be others in this area that have been disruptive, but these should be able to locate.) By having a page ban for some editors, the page will be protected (the point of sanctions rather than punishment) and breaches will be much more easily identifiable and action easier to implement. Other unrelated pages will not have the DS and 1RR imposed. If drama arises on other pages in the future, deal with this in the future.DrChrissy (talk) 20:34, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Mrjulesd
Just to say: the likely reason for the Agent Orange article coming under scrutiny of SageRad and others is because of its close links to Monsanto. Monsanto and Dow Chemical were the two main manufacturers. So this less than salubrious history may be used as a guilt by association in connection with their GMO products and associated pesticides.
I think there is a case for disallowing of editing of articles closely related to Monsanto, although there could be endless wiki-lawyering over which articles this applies to. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 00:09, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Serialjoepsycho
On the one hand I wouldn't want to see anyone prevented from taking part in Vietnam era articles. On the other hand I wouldn't want to see editors gaming the system to further their advocacy by going after these articles. Herbicidal warfare, agent orange, the other Rainbow Herbicides and ect would seem to fall under the topic ban. I'd also ask that you consider making it clear that if anyone attempts to game these sanctions that it can lead to a topic ban.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:22, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Thryduulf: for the sake of clarity, when you say that an individual should ask for clarification on the scope of their topic ban if they are genuinely unsure, you do mean go somewhere such as AE and not here?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 16:51, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Semitransgenic
chemicals directly connected with agricultural biotechnology and GM tech are the concern. A more accurate statement would read:
- all pages relating to agricultural biotechnology and directly associated chemicals, genetically modified organisms, and other GM technologies broadly construed. Semitransgenic talk. 14:01, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
-
- @Guerillero, honestly, the intention is not to shrink the scope of the ban, but to find more exacting language such that we avoid overreach. The arbitration was about GM technologies, very specific agricultural chemicals are included in this, broadening the reach of the arbitration PD such that it restricts the free editing of articles that are not directly associated with GM technologies is not an outcome that serves Wikipedia's aims. Semitransgenic talk. 14:14, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Count Iblis
Why not nominate one expert editor in the field who till now has been uninvolved in this case, who will monitor the editing of the topic ban editors and communicate with them if there is a problem w.r.t. the topic ban? That way you can avoid overly broad topic ban restrictions while still making sure there are no problems w.r.t. the problematic editing in the GMO topic area. If in the opinion of the appointed monitor the communication was not effective then AE intervention will be the next step. Count Iblis (talk) 14:42, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Genetically modified organisms (1): Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Genetically modified organisms (1): Arbitrator views and discussion
- The topic ban is for all pages that fall in the following categories genetically modified organisms and agricultural chemicals. This is a natural language "and" since we are't writing symbolic logic statements or SQL statements; the topic ban is not for the intersection of the two topics like some are trying to claim.
Further, the traveling circus seems to have moved from Roundup to another Monsanto chemical that is controversial. I do not care how much like (or dislike) Monsanto, Du Pont, or any other multinational corporation; you are on an encyclopedia not a place to right great wrongs that you see in the world. If you can not act like adults around the fringes of your topic ban it will be extended to something very broad or a site ban. This is not the first time that groups of editors have caused issues in a number of closely related topic areas, the American Politics area comes to mind, and the only way that we can deal with this is broad sanctions.
Colleagues, would all pages relating to genetically modified organisms, Monsanto, or pesticides and related chemicals, broadly construed be a better alternative for all of you to nip this at the bud and to prevent a litany of future cases with the same parties? --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 18:47, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- Update based on recommendations above --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 18:53, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Capeo: I do like that wording. --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 19:11, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- @NE Ent: Sometimes I wonder where you get your pop-culture references from. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:44, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Semitransgenic: I don't see a reason to shrink the scope of the ban. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:44, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- @DrChrissy: You should avoid any section of any page relating to your topic ban. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:44, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Wuerzele: You are breaking your restriction if you are doing more than engaging in good faith clarification --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:44, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Tryptofish: those expanded areas are a feature, not a bug, of the proposed (and former) wording. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 20:22, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- Update based on recommendations above --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 18:53, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- I have no issue with adding "commercially produced" to the ban wording (though I suspect anyone trying to claim that "water" or "nitrogen" is covered as an agricultural chemical would be laughed out of AE), but yes, the intent is to keep people out of the bickering over the commercial chemicals. Other than that, if we need to broaden it, we will. Being topic banned means to take those subjects off your watchlist, avoid and do not discuss them at all, and leave the area entirely. It does not mean to stand on the sidelines and shout in, nor to keep tiptoeing right along the line. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:32, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- Were I topic banned on something, I would avoid the entire general area, rather than try to find ways to get as close to it as possible without triggering the ban. DGG ( talk ) To elucidate, asking the question is a reasonable exception to the ban, editing almost any of the pages would be covered. I would strongly advise not testing it. DGG ( talk ) 16:51, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with my colleagues - if you are topic banned, stay away from the topic area and do not attempt to test the boundaries. If you are genuinely uncertain whether a page falls within the ban, go edit productively and collaboratively somewhere completely unrelated for a while. After at least a couple of weeks of this (ideally months rather than weeks), if you still want to edit that article ask yourself again whether it is covered by your topic ban - if it is, don't. If you a still really unsure then you can ask for clarification. If you are asking for clarification immediately after the ban is imposed you haven't understood the point of the ban.
As for clarification, I'm happy with the suggestion by Guerillero and/or the suggestion by Capeo. Thryduulf (talk) 15:27, 20 December 2015 (UTC)- @Serialjoepsycho: requests for clarification should be made here, but they should only be requested in good faith and should not demonstrate a desire to skirt as close as possible to the edge of the ban. Thryduulf (talk) 18:07, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
- As my colleagues have said, don't test the boundaries, just show self-control and spend time editing other project areas, demonstrating that you can edit productively and non-contentiously. "GMOs, commercially produced agricultural chemicals and the companies that produce them" seems good. Doug Weller (talk) 21:19, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Seraphimblade. NativeForeigner Talk 23:18, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Amendment request: American politics 2
Initiated by Nocturnalnow at 17:45, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- Topic ban from "American Politics after 1932" imposed as a discretionary sanction under Remedy 1.2
- List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- Nocturnalnow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- NorthBySouthBaranof (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- D.Creish (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- Vesuvius Dogg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- Spartaz (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- NuclearWarfare (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- NorthBySouthBaranof
- D.Creish
- Vesuvius Dogg
- Spartaz
- NuclearWarfare
- EdJohnston
- Information about amendment request
- Narrow the scope of the topic ban to Huma Abedin.
Statement by Nocturnalnow
The information, comments etc. which are within the request for enforcement link show, I think, that the ban is too broad even if accepting all of the "evidence" against me. I urge ArbCom to read the statements by other editors and results section on that request. Also, please note that I have been a productive editor for over 8 years with no blocks, and over 5 thousand problem free edits, most related to U.S. politics, when including these Usernames[[13]][14] which are noted at the top of my User and Talk pages.(I am a very old guy and had forgotten my passwords when taking a wikibreak; I now have my password written down so I should never need another User name).
The submission for enforcement was, imo, a flawed and biased process throughout, e.g.: User:NorthBySouthBaranofonly asked for a ban on Huma Abedin. The submitter had asked for and been denied the same ban a few weeks earlier. The Submitter misrepresented the result of his prior request as if it was a "strong warning" sanction against solely me, whereas actually it was a general admonition that future edit warring could result in administrative action and a complete reading of the "results" recommendations reveals that the Submitter himself was identified as being as much of a problem at the BLP as myself.
Within less than 1 day of the submission, which I did not even know about, User:EdJohnston left this message on my talk page. He also simultaneously recommended this topic wide ban in the "result" section which, I think, had a first day prejudicial effect and was unfair towards me. in addition, Ed drew some sort of non-existent co-relation between a defensive comment I made on a User's talk page and Ed's conclusion from that one edit that I have "wide-ranging ideas for correcting articles on American politics" i.e.wide-ranging ideas for correcting articles on American politics.Ed also mis-characterized the findings of the earlier request with use of the word "proposed".
Ed's initial first day recommendation was; *We are seeing a rerun of the BLP problems at Huma Abedin, so soon after the last AE complaint in which sanctions against Nocturnalnow were proposed. I would advise an indefinite ban of User:Nocturnalnow from American politics since 1932 under WP:ARBAPDS on all pages of Wikipedia. A review of contributions suggests that Nocturnalnow has wide-ranging ideas for correcting articles on American politics, including those about Hillary Clinton. It is not easy to see Nocturnalnow as being able to edit neutrally, given the way he handled evidence on the Abedin article. So a ban only from that article might not be sufficient. EdJohnston (talk) 05:56, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Later, User:NuclearWarfare came into the Result section in Supprot of Ed's recommendation and quickly asked for CheckUser towards an IP who oppose the ban:i.e.
- {{checkuser needed}} I would appreciate it if a checkuser to take a look at 50.196.177.155, who has commented above. NW (Talk) 22:38, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- @NuclearWarfare: What do you want to know about the IP? (please ping when you respond).--Bbb23 (talk) 22:55, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Bbb23: Whether there is any evidence that an established user has used that IP address. Entering a dispute and citing Wikipedia policy while providing diffs at AE and ANI[15] seems like...unlikely behavior from a new editor editing Wikipedia for the first time. NW (Talk) 23:25, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
This publicized ( in the Result section here) action by NW' (Talk) has the effect, even if unintended, of casting suspicion on that IP's statement and objectivity as well as casting suspicion that I or one of the other editors here (who are opposed to a topic wide ban) used that IP as a sockpuppet, thus implying that any or all of the statements opposing this request are less than valid. Please have a look at this particular usage. I believe this usage breaks the spirit and letter of this Wikipedia policy, i.e."checks must only be made in order to prevent or reduce potential or actual disruption, or to investigate credible, legitimate concerns of bad faith editing." The reasons given by NuclearWarfare to the Checkuser are not within the scope of our policy, imo, and further damaged the process by which I was given such a broad topic ban, imo.
- "Vindictive" is how Vesuvius Dogg described EdJohnston's "Result" of a broad topic ban within 1 day of the without merit submission. Even if vindictive, does vindictive meet the "abuse of discretion" threshold ? Maybe not. What about an obvious and intentional false correlation drawn between
- A: a friendly and casual comment on an Editor's talk page about myself "not being predisposed to idolize the office of U.S. President" with
- B: having "wide-ranging ideas for correcting articles on American politics". And then to use that false correlation to justify a broad topic ban on someone with 8 years of editing with no blocks?
- Remember, that false correlation is the 1 and only basis for EdJohnston's speedy recommendation of a topic ban which set the tone for the rest of the "Result" discussion. The only other option is that EdJohnston actually believes that not being predisposed to idolize the office of U.S. President really is the same as having "wide-ranging ideas for correcting articles on American politics"; and that correlation necessitates a topic ban. I do not think that second option is even a possibility given what I think and assume to be Ed's high level of intelligence.
- Which brings us back to option one...the intentional false misrepresentation of the casual comment I made on an editor's talk page in order to drum up a weak and transparent excuse to suggest a topic ban.
- If that is not abuse of discretion, I don't know what is.
- Then we come to NuclearWarfare's ,again, obvious, misuse of CheckUser within the Result discussion section, which again prejudiced and tainted that discussion as well as planted the suspicion that some of the comments were maybe by sockpuppets. If that is not abuse of discretion, I don't know what is.
- Nevertheless, what I think we are witnessing here is not going to be affected by logical thinking, critical thinking, ethical standards or any concern whatsoever for what is best for Wikipedia. What I think we are witnessing here is most comparable to a Blue wall of silence. At least that is what my critical thinking abilities are telling me.
@(Evergreen) Full time editors have ways to communicate off wikipedia, e.g. IRC or email. All of my Wikipedia activities are transparent.
@Guerillero. I think the 6 posts(see above) about CU in the "Results" section laid a level of suspicion over the comments of the IPs as well as planted a negative haze over all who opposed the extreme and never justified topic ban. The usage appears to be another "abuse of discretion" that happened within the venue where I got the topic ban. Our CU Policy clearly states ."checks must only be made in order to prevent or reduce potential or actual disruption, or to investigate credible, legitimate concerns of bad faith editing." NW clearly had no legitimate reason to request CU during and within the discussion in the "Result" section; I see it as just another "abuse of discretion" matching the one by EdJohnston. These "abuses of discretion" had the effect of "fixing" the topic ban conclusion and polluting the entire Request For Enforcement process I underwent, which was without any merit whatsoever in the first place. I have already covered this above in more detail.
Statement by NorthBySouthBaranof
The checkusering of an IP which had made two comments on two separate project pages indicating a knowledge and understanding of policies, etc. can only be described as good-faith. As for narrowing the scope of the topic ban, I have no particular opinion, other than to restate the issues that Nocturnalnow presented on Huma Abedin; to wit, a persistent determination to use her Wikipedia biography to depict her in as negative a manner as possible, apparently because of his personal political disagreement with Abedin and/or Abedin's employer, Hillary Clinton. If the committee believes that Nocturnalnow can be trusted to edit other articles and biographies of modern political figures in a neutral, policy-compliant manner, I have no objection. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:25, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by D.Creish
Statement by Vesuvius Dogg
Nocturnalnow is understandably upset at a broad ban, particularly because his problematic editing history under this ID has been limited to Hillary Clinton and Huma Abedin. I have said before that a topic ban related to these two seems to me more appropriate than the broader ban, which seems vindictive in spirit. (I'm a disinterested editor w/o interaction history w/ Nocturnalnow or editing history on those two pages.) Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 20:55, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Spartaz
- I don't believe there is anything add beyond the contents and discussion in the relevant AE thread [16]. I do not intend to comment further unless there are specific questions for me from the committee. Spartaz Humbug! 00:23, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by NuclearWarfare
I have no statement to make at this time. Drop me a note if my input would be valuable. NW (Talk) 22:36, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by EdJohnston
Statement by L235
I'm seeing phrases like reasonable exercise of admin discretion being used. Is the Committee considering these appeals with the standard of review being abuse of discretion? It seems bureaucratic to even use a standard of review like that (only overturning if the enforcing admin erred) rather than considering appeals fresh, on the merits, "if I were the enforcing admin, considering everything, would I have imposed this sanction or a lesser one?" -style review. If the Committee does defer to enforcing admins on appeal at ARCA, could that be made clear in the procedures? It's not currently clear that the Committee will defer to enforcing admins, or to what level the Committee will do so. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c · ping in reply) 03:56, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Seraphimblade: Interesting; I don't participate much at AN/ANI, but, for example, block appeals (which are much more analogous to sanctions appeals than DRV/other closure reviews) are granted or durations shortened based on a consensus of editors believing that they would have made a shorter block themselves, even if they would also hold that the block could be reasonable under the blocking policy. I don't suppose this is related to this specific request, though, so I'll shut up unless you want further reply. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 04:38, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Mouse001
I do not agree with the admin's decision and I believe that it was unfairly biased against NocturnalNow. Much of the statements that were made by NorthBySouthBaranof and others supporting the ban were discredited, including the reasoning for including two out of four of the "Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy" that were presented in the arbitration request. Disregarding the "truth-fudging" by NorthSouthBaranof, I think many reasonable and objective people would see this is minor mishap that should not result in NocturnalNow receiving topic ban from US Politics, let alone a ban from Huma Abedin.
NocturnalNow also raises a good point about the conclusion by Ed. I believe it was improper because it was determined so speedily without adequate evaluation of NorthBySouthBaranof's statements and sound reasoning provided by others who opposed the ban.
Lastly, if this ban is to be kept I suggest that NorthBySouthBaranof to receive a ban as well, else this would be evidence of a double standard on Wikipedia, because he is responsible for much of the edit warring at Huma Abedin and holds sole responsibility for the first two diffs that he himself listed under "Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy". He was found just as much responsible for the BLP violations as NocturnalNow in the very first arbitration request that he submitted against NocturnalNow, and he has again committed violations (that are worse than those committed by NocturnalNow) so he should be held to the same standard. He also appears to have a habit of using language that is unfit for Wikipedia because it does not foster constructive discussion.--Mouse001 (talk) 06:45, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by EvergreenFir
Commenting to point out continued canvassing by this user (see [17]), including soliciting a response from Mouse001 who commented above. This behavior was pointed out by Gamaliel on AE in this edit. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:08, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
American politics 2: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
- Cleaned a bit. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c · ping in reply) 20:00, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
- Notes: I've notified the listed parties and added diffs. Also, a quick reminder to the filing editor that pursuant to WP:ACDS#appeals.notes, once this request has been reviewed by the Committee via this ARCA request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. Thanks, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c · ping in reply) 20:15, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
- I'll actually recuse to give a statement. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c · ping in reply) 03:56, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
American politics 2: Arbitrator views and discussion
- Decline --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 20:19, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Seraphimblade. I strongly object to the idea that it is within our mandate or even a good idea to change admin's non-egregious decisions because we disagree with them. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 04:57, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
- @L235: indefinite and not me infinite; in 6 months to a year I might entertain an appeal based off of a user's ability to edit non-disruptively in other areas. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 04:59, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Nocturnalnow: NW is not a CU and the use of CU is not in this forum's remit nor does it have any bearing on your appeal. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 07:16, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
- @L235: indefinite and not me infinite; in 6 months to a year I might entertain an appeal based off of a user's ability to edit non-disruptively in other areas. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 04:59, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Seraphimblade. I strongly object to the idea that it is within our mandate or even a good idea to change admin's non-egregious decisions because we disagree with them. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 04:57, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
- The topic ban is certainly a reasonable exercise of admin discretion, so I would decline to alter that in any way. As to the checkuser, I think there was good cause to believe that the IP was in fact an experienced editor editing project space while logged out, and I think it was reasonable to check. Regardless, as the check came up empty, it wouldn't have had any effect on the ultimate outcome. Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:55, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
- @L235: Yes, "abuse of discretion" would be a good way to describe the standard. That's really the standard when we review any administrative actions—not "Would I have done the exact same thing?" but "Is this a reasonable and defensible action given the circumstances?". I would see it as far more bureaucratic for us to be nitpicking and second-guessing every admin action, or reversing or modifying them in cases where they were not egregiously excessive, abusive, or obviously mistaken. That's always been common practice when reviewing admin actions, not just with us but in cases like a DRV or closure review as well. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:27, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
- Decline per SeraphimBlade. Doug Weller talk 19:15, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Clarification request: Genetically modified organisms (2)
Initiated by JzG at 00:52, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- Genetically modified organisms arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
- JzG (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
- DrChrissy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Statement by JzG
DrChrissy is under a topic ban from "all pages relating to genetically modified plants and agricultural chemicals, broadly interpreted". DrChrissy is currently edit-warring to include negative text from Mercola.com, an extremely unreliable source, to Genetically modified fish ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (e.g. [18]). Fish are not plants, but the locus of dispute is GMOs generally.
- Should DrChrissy be editing articles on genetically modified non-plant organisms?
- Should non-plant GMOs be covered by the 1RR remedy?
.
Statement by DrChrissy
ArbCom, what am I doing wrong here? It appears some of you are basing your decisions on a potential topic ban expansion on my editing of a single page - Genetically modified fish.
- Am I edit warring? No. JzG stated I am edit warring, but I am almost the only editor on there! ...it is difficult to have a war with oneself. There have been no comments left on the talk page since December 21st - so anyone arguing that I am edit warring has not attempted whatsoever to engage in any discussion.
- Am I breaking 1RR or slow edit-warring by reverting? No - I have made only one reversion since the remedies of ArbCom were published.
- Are my edits POV? I can see how this might be perceived at the moment, however, the way I tend to edit articles is to present one point of view and subsequently others to balance the article. There are only 24 hrs in the day to edit and we are told that articles should always be considered as "work in progress". I have not yet had time to present other points of view and, of course, other editors are welcome to do this. Moreover, if my editing is being seen as POV, I have not been notified of this either on the article Talk page or my own Talk page.
- Are my sources RS? I believe this criticism relates to just the Mercola source. When I first introduced the content, I did not know who the author was (how many content editors do know this?). Since I have been informed of this, I have not tried to reintroduce the material - I AM listening to criticisms.
- In short, I am really at a loss to understand why some arbitrators think my topic ban should be enlarged. If this is to be a learning process, I need to know where I am going wrong. Please tell me.
- DrChrissy (talk) 20:09, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- @User:Capeo...rather than going on ad nauseum about edits/sources, etc. here to try and discredit me, why not just make the edits you want to? Surely that would be the best approach to building a better encyclopaedia.DrChrissy (talk) 20:24, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- @User:Capeo...sorry, I do not buy your flimsy time argument. The time to create your last-but-one posting going into great deal about just one source would have easily allowed you to make several constructive edits to the article. But rather than do that, and us perhaps engaging in discussion at the article Talk page which is where it correctly belongs, you bring it here to a Noticeboard. You are simply raising content issues - and these are not dealt with by ArbCom. I believe your approach is so uncollegiate as to be adversarial. Why are you so averse to content editing?DrChrissy (talk) 21:04, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
@Aircorn Thank you very much for confirming Trypto's observation that there is no edit warring at the page. Please, if you feel my edits are one-sided, edit the article to add balance. Many of the edits simply have no other "side" to them, but if you believe differently, I encourage you to edit accordingly or open up discussion on the Talk page. Regarding my use of the Wired article, I actually asked the very question of whether it was RS at the Talk page shown here[[19]] before introducing the content. I received no negative comments so I assumed it was OK to use. I am trying very hard to learn here, so I think asking the question was the right course of action and one showing I am willing to engage in discussion and take other editor's viewpoints into consideration.DrChrissy (talk) 17:37, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Capeo
So at what point do I get to say I told you so? That article is horrible. DrChrissy has added almost nothing but negative material (the vast bulk of an article that barely bothers to explain what GM fish even are) using completely non-notable primary papers or outright WP:FRINGE sources. Often they're cherry picking data from the papers that aren't fringe, without context, giving an impression that doesn't even agree with the actual conclusions of the papers. This isn't shocking since they don't seem to understand WP:FRINGE [20] or what constitutes the scientific mainstream. Or even sourcing really. The whole controversy section is basically what DrChrissy finds controversial about GM fish and not what any notable sources seem to. Capeo (talk) 04:40, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- Just to further display the selective use of even okay sources look at the second paragraph of AquaAdvantage Salmon under Controversies. Note how only raw data is grabbed from the source with no context at all to paint a much bleaker picture than the conclusion of the paper. In fact the 41% natural hybridization in the wild sentence literally has no bearing on the conclusions of the paper at all and DrChrissy leaves out that this has only been observed as a result of translocation. Not to mention it has nothing to do with GM Fish and specifically leaves out the first part of the sentence, that it was cherry picked from, that states natural hybridization rarely exceeds 1%. Now look at the impression that whole paragraph gives versus the conclusion of the paper: "Despite the apparent low probability for genetic introgression into the brown trout genome, the ecological consequences of decreased salmon growth in the presence of transgenic hybrids indicate that hybridization is relevant to risk assessments. Although transgenic hybrids would probably be rarer in the wild than in our experiment, our results indicate that transgenic hybrids have a competitive advantage over salmon in at least some semi-natural conditions. Still, it is entirely unclear whether this would be observed in truly wild environments. If this advantage is maintained in the wild, transgenic hybrids could detrimentally affect wild salmon populations. Ultimately, we suggest that hybridization of transgenic fishes with closely related species represents potential ecological risks for wild populations and a possible route for introgression of a transgene, however low the likelihood, into a new species in nature." Also, because this is just cherrypicking a primary study there's nothing that even indicates anything is actually controversial about this to anyone other than DrChrissy themselves. Unfortunately you can dissect most of controversy section in the same manner. Misrepresented primary sources with no secondary sources giving context or even expressing how any of this is controversial to begin with. Capeo (talk) 14:21, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- Clearly DrChrissy has seen the above because they have since added the last sentence of conclusion, as a quote, into the paragraph noted while still leaving the cherry picked and misleading data. I happened to look into the claims and sources in the paragraph above. It claims AquaBounty said their fish cannot breed and then says "however" there's a 1.1% chance of fertility as though AquaBounty denies this when the 1.1% source is from AquaBounty.com. Further the next sentence seems to imply the chance is higher based on a sentence taken from an abstract that, when read in full, actually confirms the claim: "Spontaneous triploidy was found to be rare (0.06% and 0.22% when eggs were stored in vivo or in vitro, respectively). Three larger scale trials (n =15,814, 10,419, and 19,593) using normal pressure, high pressure, or high pressure plus aged eggs, yielded triploidy frequencies of 99.8%, 97.6%, and 97.0%, respectively. Overall, among all pressure-treated groups (n =54,787 fish), 1.1% exceptional diploids were detected. If families with obvious high levels (>2%) of diploids are excluded, the frequency of diploid exceptions is 0.32%" (emphasis added). Not to mention this paper has been cited a whole 16 times and seems completely non-controversial. Capeo (talk) 20:17, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- @DrChrissy:, a couple reasons, one being time constraints. I'm only able to devote maybe an hour here or there and sometimes no time for days. The other being, given your more recent postings about how you think fringe and POV should be interpreted, I see nothing but conflict heading down that road. And I'm not trying to "discredit you". We're talking about your editing not you personally. Now I've got to be well over the word limit by this point so I'm going to bow out. Clerks, if this needs trimming let me know. I should be on again for a bit later. Capeo (talk) 20:54, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- Just noting that in the time since this was brought up (not edit-warring BTW just a NPOV issue) DrChrissy's response to the lack of neutrality pointed out is to expand the least neutral sections. This, "Many of the edits simply have no other "side" to them" posted above, elucidates the issue better than anything I can say. Between this ARCA and the one above these issues have been lingering and the response always seem to be doubling down. Arbs, if you are going to propose any amendments, I'd say sooner is better than later. Capeo (talk) 17:57, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Tryptofish:, since when is blatant POV pushing not disruptive? I could sympathize more with your view if not for DrChrissy's reactions to being told their editing is an issue. They've collected two TBs now. Right up until the GMO case was closed and sanctions took effect DrChrissy did all they could to stuff their views into the Glysophate article. One slight attempt to fix the slant of the GM Fish article is insta-reverted. Here we have three arbs suggesting DrChrissy's editing is not neutral and the reaction is to double down again and expand the controversy section even more. It's not like fringe and due weight issues haven't been explained to them a million times now. I guess you have more faith than I do. Capeo (talk) 18:54, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Tryptofish
Please hold on a minute. I've been editing Genetically modified fish too. And I am concerned that JzG has misstated several things, and his misstatements are being taken as fact. He is probably right about the issues of POV to some extent, and my personal opinion is that DrChrissy has been adding too much detail from primary sources, but these things seem to be getting addressed at the page. And the Mercola source is unambiguously not an RS. However, the edit warring and 1RR issues are not as JzG says. As for his question 2 (should non-plant GMOs be covered by 1RR?), the page in question already has the edit notice stating the GMO decision about DS and 1RR, and it displays every time one edits the page, so I think that question has already been answered. More importantly, I'm not seeing DrChrissy edit warring over the Mercola source or over anything else. I'm just not seeing the reverting, unless I'm missing something. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:14, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- Following up on my comment from yesterday, I want to re-emphasize my statement that there is much less going on here than what JzG accused. I'm glad that Aircorn and Dialectric have reconfirmed my observation that there has not been any edit warring. There just hasn't. And I don't at all see a battleground at this page, neither on DrChrissy's part nor in the edit summary from another editor that was cited by Dialectric. And I want to point something else out, too. The purpose of the GMO decision was not, and should not be, to prohibit editors from adding anti-GMO content. Much of what Capeo is saying is based on: DrChrissy adds sources that criticize GM animals, oh look, that's POV-pushing and disruptive editing. Well, no, it's not disruptive, in this case. DrChrissy is not violating the existing sanctions at that page. (And I trust no one will think that I, of all editors, am sympathetic to an anti-GMO POV.) I do think that DrChrissy's view of NPOV looks POV from where I am, and I sure do not like that statement about there being no other side, but DrChrissy is not being disruptive about any of this. I can sympathize with ArbCom that DrChrissy has been trying your patience with all the noisy appeals to you and to Jimbo, and maybe that also annoyed JzG, but there is no basis here for you to expand DrChrissy's sanctions. On the other hand, there are other pages, where other editors are doing quite a bit to make GMO-2 probable, but this isn't where that's happening. You need to close this with no formal action. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:24, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- Capeo, I really do not want to argue with you, because it isn't you or I who makes the decisions here. I'm trying to see this as real people editing, and real people are complicated. I agree with you about DrChrissy doubling down at the glyphosate page, but I think that, even though DrChrissy has added some stuff to the fish page we are actually discussing here that will end up being reverted, I'm seeing zero evidence that there will be a battle over it, at least not one waged by DrChrissy. And in case anyone did not notice it, DrChrissy has also been adding material that is pro-GM to that page. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:23, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Aircorn
The article in question is on my watchlist. The feed is dominated by Dr Chrissy, but there is no edit warring going on. I am very concerned with the one sided nature of the additions and feel trouble is brewing on that article. That someone would even think wired could be a reliable source is also worrying[21]. AIRcorn (talk) 17:09, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- Currently there are bigger GM Fish to fry that are taking up my limited editing time, but one day I hope to turn my attention to this article. There are plenty of sides to these articles, that is why they are so heated and why we are here now. AIRcorn (talk) 19:16, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Dialectric
Jzg has not provided diffs which support his claims of edit warring. I have also been following the Genetically modified fish article and second Tryptofish's position that DrChrissy has not been edit warring on that page, and that in fact no edit warring has occurred there. This issue was not discussed on the article talk page or on DrChrissy's user page before the filing. Curt edit summaries like jps ' 'removing Mercola. Completely unreliable source' diff ) without explanation/elaboration on talk are likely to exacerbate battleground problems in this already contentious area. Dialectric (talk) 17:29, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Genetically modified organisms (2): Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Genetically modified organisms (2): Arbitrator views and discussion
- The answer to question 1 is yes they can under the restriction that was crafted for them. Should they? That is for them to decide.
For question 2, those are covered by 1RR. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 01:07, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- It seems we should have made the remedy to include "genetically modified organisms", rather than just plants. The "reference" cited was "Act now to stop genetically engineered fish from receiving approval". Someone citing a reference with "Act now" in the title is someone who seems to have difficulty with the concept of neutrality. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:48, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- We've been talking about changing the wording, now seems to be the time. Doug Weller talk 18:56, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Doug and Seraphimblade. The intent here was to allow DrChrissy to constructively edit parts of the GMO topic area to demonstrate that he can edit in a neutral and collegiate fashion regarding GMOs. His actions since the close of the case have demonstrated that he cannot and so an extension of the topic ban is in unfortunately in order. Thryduulf (talk) 19:38, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 3
Initiated by When Other Legends Are Forgotten at 04:29, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- Palestine-Israel articles 3 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
- When Other Legends Are Forgotten (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- MusikAnimal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Statement by When Other Legends Are Forgotten
Does an article need to be tagged with the {{ARBPIA}} template on its associated Talk page for it to be considered subject to the case restrictions (30/500)? I am referring to articles which clearly relate to the conflict (e.g, they contain text such as "Palestinians exiled in 1948 are denied their right of return.", and as such , it would be hard to argue that they could not "be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict".
A further clarification is required with regards to IPs ability to edit talk pages of articles subject to the 30/500 restriction, as it seems that some administrators are of the opinion that they are allowed to edit such pages (see [23])
@MusikAnimal: - I am not opposed to enforcing the restriction via a template, in fact, I would welcome such a measure. But that really does not address the issue I am asking clarification for, nor does your suggestion that only admins be allowed to add the template seem sensible to me - there is no such requirement to add the {{ARBPIA}] template to such articles today - any editor can do so, at their discretion. There are thousands, if not tens of thousands of articles subject to the restriction, and many of them are not tagged. Are we to wait until an admin sees fit to add the template to articles such as Jibril Agreement before IPs can be reasonably prevented (via reverts ) from editing them in contravention of the restriction?
Statement by MusikAnimal
- I don't think the 30/500 restriction should be left to personal opinion. It may sometimes be that the subject itself is not directly associated to Arab-Israeli conflict, rather limited to a particular section, or even a few lines of text. At any rate I definitely don't think it's fair to unqualified users to give no indication that they shouldn't be editing. Currently there is an edit filter that disallows edits from users who do not meet the 30/500 qualification. When this was set up I was given an explicit set of articles to target, that has been added to since then. I believe the editing restriction should be exclusively enforced by these means. It seems silly to allow any given editor to enforce it manually based on their own interpretation (not to say When Other Legends Are Forgotten's opinion is wrong). There has been talk of introducing a new page protection system powered by a template (documentation to come) and two separate edit filters. Lengthy discussion can be found here and here. If we proceed with this route, it will be clear to editors the page is protected, as it will have a padlock icon. The decision to impose the editing restriction will be left to admins at their discretion, and users could request this protection at WP:RFPP (have to talk to Cyberpower678 about the bot, but one step at a time). Any admin can add the enforcing template to a page and the edit filter will then protect that page under the 30/500 restriction. An additional edit filter will ensure only admins can add and remove the padlock template. I believe this new system will alleviate confusion on what articles are under the editing restriction, as the process will be very formal. Having authored the template and offering to author the new filters, I am actually ready to move forward with this approach pending consensus to do so. Pinging SpacemanSpiff and NeilN (maybe this isn't the best place to discuss) Hopefully we can adopt the new system soon. Until then, I believe the single edit filter we have now is the best course. If there are any outstanding articles that fall under the editing restriction but are not currently enforced, please let edit filter managers know via the filter noticeboard.
- @When Other Legends Are Forgotten: (pings don't actually work here since there's no timestamp =P): I don't think getting admin attention will be that much of an issue, as you'll be able to request protection at WP:RFPP just as you do any type of protection (we can even add it to Twinkle). E.g. anyone can add {{pp-protected}} to an article, but it won't actually be protected until an admin comes along and does it. Similarly the same is true for the 30/500 restriction. I realize this is a bit different because with semi it's at admin discretion whether or not it should be protected, whereas if you created a new page that's unambiguously about the Arab-Israeli conflict, no one is going to argue it qualifies for the 500/30 arbitration remedy -- and by all means, revert as necessary in that case if the protection is not yet in place. You might as well request an admin to add the padlock template, otherwise it's purely up to the page watchers to enforce the restriction, and only those page watchers who know the restriction even exists. Admin intervention also ensures we don't get bogus claims that a page is eligible for 30/500 (again, not referring to you). E.g. one could add it to the talk page and start reverting away, until someone comes by and stops them.
Another idea is to make sure all pages with the 30/500 template are also semi'd (as no anons meet 30/500). That way we can utilize some technical magic to make the {{ARBPIA}} template add a category if the corresponding subject page is not semi'd. This would give us a list of pages that probably also need to have the 500/30 enforcing template added to them. Hell, we could even have a bot find all pages with {{ARBPIA}} on the talk page and no
template on the subject page. I don't want to get too carried away with technical matters, and further backlog my list of to-dos, but the template approach to enforcing the 500/30 restriction is at the top of that list -- and I really think it is the best solution, which means we will require admin intervention to qualify an article for 30/500 but in a way that's more formal and conducive to a stable editing environment — MusikAnimal talk 06:57, 31 December 2015 (UTC){{pp-30-500}}
- @Zero0000: If by "tag" you mean the new
which automatically enforces the editing restriction, the addition of it will absolutely have to be left to admins (they can be involved, assuming there's no question it applies to that article). This is a powerful editing restriction, much moreso than semi, pending-changes, or even PC2. We can not let just anyone add it, we need admins to verify it is truly needed on that article or else it's usage is subject to abuse. Again, getting admin attention is as simple as making an RFPP request. These are processed quickly. Now, if an article is clearly subject to the arbitration remedy, anyone can of course enforce the 30/500 restriction manually, but they should at least add {{ARBPIA}} to the talk page so people are aware this is a thing, and also request 30-500 protection assuming they are aware it exists. There might also be articles where only a portion of it is subject to 30/500 restriction. In such a case we obviously wouldn't protect it withpp-30-500
, and enforement would have to be left to page watchers. Again mind you there is an edit filter already doing this job, just doesn't go off of a template admins can add, which is the better solution as it won't require edit filter managers to update which articles are protected. This edit filter was put in place as a result of this ArbCom case, and it's usage was challenged and upheld here and here. The filter-enforced disallowing of edits is favourable over letting editors do the job manually, as it presents a friendly edit notice telling the user why they can't edit, as opposed to bitey page watchers reverting with the summary "you can't edit here". All in all, if we are to keep the 30/500 editing restriction, I see no reason why we shouldn't do in a way consistent with other page protections, especially given this one is the more powerful of protections.pp-30-500
Statement by Zero0000
I do not think that a tag should be required. Experience with the ARBPIA sanctions over several years shows that the few disputes over which articles are included are fairly easy for the admins at AE to decide. And once they have decided, the status of that article is settled from then on.
In case a tag is decided, it would be a very bad idea to require an uninvolved admin to add it. The outcome of such a rule in practice would that the sanctions would only ever be active in a small fraction of the articles in which they are required. I propose the opposite: any editor satisfying the 30/500 condition can add a tag; any uninvolved administrator can rule that the tag is not appropriate for that article. (But I still think that no tags at all would be better.) Zerotalk 07:19, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoyland
While it's clear that ARBCOM explicitly allow for the GP to be enforced in any way that is currently possible including manual reverts, When Other Legends Are Forgotten seems to be under the impression that the restrictions can be enforced by sockpuppets of topic banned/blocked users, such as himself, very probably a sock of NoCal100, during the often extended periods Wikipedia's slow and deeply flawed system of protection against sockpuppetry allows the sock to remain active. Perhaps ARBCOM could make it clear that sockpuppets of blocked users are never allowed to enforce the restrictions (or indeed do anything at all in ARBPIA) and When Other Legends Are Forgotten could accept and abide by that clear rule so that we don't have the absurd and counterproductive situation of a person who is not allowed to edit in ARBPIA (or anywhere) telling people that they are not allowed to edit in ARBPIA. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:27, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Palestine-Israel articles 3: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Palestine-Israel articles 3: Arbitrator views and discussion
- No, but articles that fall inside of the 30/500 GP should be tagged. We explicitly allow for the GP to be enforced in any way that is currently possible including manual reverts --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 06:19, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Motions
Requests for enforcement
Ollie231213
Ollie231213 is topic banned from the Longevity topic area broadly construed. Spartaz Humbug! 09:39, 24 December 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Ollie231213
Ollie231213's conduct at various AFD discussions is bordering into uncivil territory with numerous personal attacks. There has been numerous circular and odd policy debates that Ollie has created and required for months, few of which has improved anyone else's experience here.
I simply think the editor would benefit from working away from WOP article and away from the flaws there. These repeated AFDs are getting heated (which isn't Ollie's fault) but at least a warning and a discussion would be helpful.
Discussion concerning Ollie231213Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Ollie231213Firstly, I apologise for being uncivil in a couple of instances. However, please understand my frustration when being faced by pro-deletion arguments which are based on both a poor understanding of the subject in hand and Wikipedia policy. The post I was replying to is a deletion argument which is original research and contains false assertions. Note that other users have challenged similar comments from Legacypac elsewhere. Secondly, point number 2 is a misinterpretation of what I meant. I meant that not every bit of information in the sources themselves has to have citations, not the information in Wikipedia. Thirdly, Ricky was an involved editor in the RFC mentioned above, and actually, in that discussion I argued that not all sources should be given the same weight, in accordance with WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 21:43, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by LegacypacThis topic is overburdened by lists that slice and dice super old people. As things are now structured, a man born in Warsaw who moved to the US should be listed on pages for Poland, Austria-Hungary, Europe, North America, US, oldest people, top 10 men, living or not living, US state, and maybe 10 other places. There are not enough editors interested in maintaining the lists, or who know how they all fit together. This editor opposes and reverses efforts to simplify [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] and so on. He also fails to understand the appropriate use of Succession boxes, WP:SBSGUIDE the most important point being "2. Simply because a record has been earned does not merit a succession box for that record. Succession boxes for records should only regard records that are part of a series (for example, not all Guinness Book records deserve a succession box)." Ollie reversed efforts to comply with the guidelines [42] by reverting User:DerbyCountyinNZ 44 times on Oct 23 on 44 pages. See [43]. Legacypac (talk) 20:43, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by EEng
However, there comes a point at which well-meant but misguided efforts become too much for the project to bear in (I repeat) this historically fraught topic area, which has been a semi-public embarrassment for years, and desperately needs cleaning up. EEng (talk) 05:48, 24 December 2015 (UTC) Result concerning Ollie231213
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Nocturnalnow
Nocturnalnow is topic banned from American Politics after 1932 Spartaz Humbug! 09:51, 24 December 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Nocturnalnow
Despite a previous enforcement request which was closed with a strong warning, this user has continued to edit-war negative contentious material into the biography of Huma Abedin, absent any talk page consensus - in fact, the user has completely refused to engage in any talk page discussion whatsoever. Their last edit to Talk:Huma Abedin was on 23 November, after POINTily nominating the page for deletion (a move which was obviously unsuccessful). They have continued to edit the page, but ignored repeated requests to discuss the material in question. Consensus on the talk page has run against their proposals, and so they have simply ignored the talk page altogether. The user has apparently no interest in anything but tendentiously pushing a POV on Abedin's biography, and has no scruples about simply revert-warring to get their way. This is not how we edit living people's biographies. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:21, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Discussion concerning NocturnalnowStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Nocturnalnow
Here is my Christmas present to you all, from Canada. Nature Christmas ___________________________ Misuse of Checkuser i.e. Checkuser Violation and Administrative abuse of CheckUser, as well as abuse of this request for enforcement process, are now the most serious 2 things to look at, in my opinion, about this request for enforcement. Please see the result section of this request. NW' (Talk) invaded the privacy of 50.196.177.155 (talk with no cause whatsoever, unless NW just did not like the comment of the IP. This publicized ( in the Result section here) action by NW' (Talk) has the effect, even if unintended, of casting suspicion on that IP's comment and objectivity as well as casting suspicion that I or one of the other editors here (who are opposed to a topic wide ban) used that IP as a sockpuppet, thus implying that any or all of the comments opposing this request are less than valid comments. Please advise me on my talk page where I can complain about this misuse of Wikipedia:CheckUser. A helpful editor at Jimbo's talk page has provided me with WP:AUSC which led me to the Ombudsman Commission resource as well, so I no longer need this particular info. This is my reasoning regarding misuse of Check user: Please have a look at this particular usage. I believe this usage breaks the spirit and letter of this Wikipedia policy, i.e."checks must only be made in order to prevent or reduce potential or actual disruption, or to investigate credible, legitimate concerns of bad faith editing." The reasons given by NuclearWarfare to the Checkuser are not within the scope of our policy, imo, and since the misuse, imo, happened within this Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement, I am addressing it in my statement as I feel possible Administrative breaches of Wikipedia policy are more important than the rest of this Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement regarding an individual editor. __________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________ This submission is without merit. Two commenters complained that I had not responded enough to the submission. Maybe that is because the submission has no merit. Now that I have gotten interested in the nuances of this process, I am probably talking too much so some will try to use my defensive words here against me, but when I see anybody... and I mean including Administrators..trying to push around average occasional and well meaning editors like me, I get really pissed off because I know that hurts the encyclopedia by turning it into an "insiders' game". Now, some of you have been pushing for more of a response from me, so here goes nothing ( or something, hopefully) Please note that Ed Johnstone put in a topic wide ban "Result" recommendation here only 8 hours after the submission.(cur | prev) 05:56, 19 December 2015 EdJohnston (talk | contribs) . . (141,786 bytes) (+920) . . (→Result concerning Nocturnalnow: Recommand a topic ban under WP:ARBAPDS) (undo | thank)... based upon what looks like some sort of U.S. Presidency advocacy false correlation, i.e. "A review of contributions suggests that Nocturnalnow has wide-ranging ideas for correcting articles on American politics." Also, it strikes me ironic that the Submitter has been Blocked several times; me? never. Not under this Username nor Mr.grantevans2 prior name which had thousands of edits going back 8 years. I think objective editors will soon come to the opinion that the Submitter is the editor who should be banned from the Huma Abedin BLP, not me. I offer my apology in general and specifically to Johnuniq for not having earlier addressed the 4 diffs identified by NorthBySouthBaranof. I just got caught up in the suggested "result" which I saw on my talk page before I had a chance to make my statement, but that's no excuse. The diffs were me trying to reinsert what I saw as having been long standing content which NorthBySouthBaranof was unilaterally removing without talk page consensus to remove it. In addition, re: the diffs, if its ok, I will borrow from what the IP says below, as he says it quite well, I think: "The contested edit does not violate BLP and does not come anywhere close to it. The content was originally POINTily removed by NorthBySouthBaranof[44]( edit summary:"Undue weight and detail here as well".) minutes after NorthBySouthBaranof was accused by D.Creish of including an UNDUE amount of content.[45]" In terms of discussion on the talk page, the Huma Abedin talk page is full of quite unexpected nasty, unpolite, and "fuck what you have to say; I am in control" type responses which have made many editors stay away completely. I do continue to discuss there but nobody likes to get accused of bad editing, associated with "defamatory" articles or called names. Here are just a few examples, I will "Bold" the kind of words I am talking about: "The information in Wikipedia on the scandal, conspiracy or whatever you want to call it, as it is currently presented, is, in this author's opinion, vague and incomplete. If you, or anyone, have other ideas about how to better present that information I would be very happy to hear them.Starburst2000 (talk) 12:19, 20 February 2014 (UTC) None of that "evidence" has any credence among mainstream media - it is a offensive fringe theory which deserves absolutely no credence in her biography. All of your "sources" are from the fringe right-wing echo chamber, all of them fail the reliable sources policy and we are not going to pollute Abedin's biography with their garbage. Wikipedia is not a place to mindlessly repeat long-debunked and deeply-offensive partisan attacks on a living person. The end. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:41, 20 February 2014 (UTC)" This portion of the article has serious issues. As currently framed, it says that Bachmann has alleged that Abedin has three family members who have connections to the Muslim Brotherhood. That fact is either true or untrue, but it does not constitute an allegation of a conspiracy. There is not an allegation that Abedin is in some nefarious cabal; rather, the truth (or untruth) of those statements goes to the question of whether Abedin has more *sympathy* for the Muslim Brotherhood than your average state department official. As currently written, it massively fails NPOV - will change it to something that more accurately reflects what Bachmann, McCarthy et al. have questions about. WillMagic101 (talk) 22:41, 16 September 2014 (UTC) Well, no.The reliable sources on this matter are unanimous in describing these allegations as scurrilous, unfounded conspiracy theories. We are required to give prominence to the point of view most widely held by reliable sources, and fringe theories lacking any mainstream credibility do not belong in the pages of the encyclopedia. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:44, 17 September 2014 (UTC) Newt is correct, this was all about a letter "asking a question" regarding Abedin's security clearance process. The question is neither an idea or a theory so I can not agree that it fits into our fringe theory policy in any way other than trying to ram a square peg into a round hole. Nocturnalnow (talk) 16:56, 1 November 2015 (UTC) The "idea" is that she is in any way connected to the Muslim Brotherhood. That is a highly-defamatory implication and claim, and has been widely rejected and condemned in reliable sources. It must and will be depicted as such in this article. If you continue to edit against consensus to depict this biographical subject in a negative light, I think it'll be time to request that you be topic-banned under discretionary sanctions. You have done nothing here but try to smear this living person, and that's not what we as encyclopedia editors are here to do. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:42, 1 November 2015 (UTC) Professor JR modus operandi seems to be to make contentious edits, slow edit war over a period of days, and never discuss anything. I'd argue that if that continues, a trip to WP:AN/I may be due.- Cwobeel (talk) 15:25, 21 November 2015 (UTC) .....Do you realize how ridiculous this is? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:30, 22 November 2015 (UTC) It is becoming tedious to explain again and again why such material is really not useful for the BLP of Abedin. A good case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT? - Cwobeel (talk) It is evident that a consensus of editors disagrees with your assertion that this trivial partisan nonsense has any place in Abedin's biography. That's really all there is to it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:45, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
My contributions to American politics far outweigh any short term dust ups with a few editors whose paranoia and bias against suspected "conservative","republican", and "right wing" publications and editors is obvious for all to see on the Huma Abedin and Hillary Clinton talk pages. Wow, what a secretive little kangaroo court railroading job is being attempted here...really,really strange. I'm pissed. If I had been away for a few days I would not have even seen this. I may have been set up on the recent flurry of edits referred to in this submission; you can judge that for yourselves. This is the second very personal and persistant attack at this location by NorthBySouthBaranof, in my opinion. NorthbySouth is the wrong person to bring this since he is quite manipulative in a sophomoric way in these venues as well as on BLPs. For example, he claims above that his last submission against me ended with a "strong warning", however, the actual closing words are "Closing: There has been a lull in the admin discussion. I'm closing this (as a noticeboard case) with no action. This is without prejudice to any admin who wants to impose 0RR or other restrictions, either on individuals or on the Huma Abedin article. If edit warring on this article continues then more admin action is likely. EdJohnston (talk) 17:31, 15 November 2015 (UTC)" There was no "strong warning" against me whatsoever. NorthBySouthBaranof is not a credible editor in my opinion; not at all, in fact,NorthBySouthBaranof was mentioned himself in his last attack as being just as problematic as anyone else. In addition; NorthbySouth has been edit warring in total on Abedin more than anyone else and against many,many editors. Any superficial review of the Huma Abedin BLP will substantiate this claim. For Ed Johnstone to try to close this out in 1 day and leaving me a note saying There may still for time for you to respond is bizarre and without due process. He claims that I have "wide-ranging ideas for correcting articles on American politics" yet the one comment I made on an Editor's talk page which he links to, says nothing of the sort????? Also, I am wondering why Ed would be using my words on an Editor's talk page against me or why he, as a non-involved Admin., would even be going there? Since he sees something in the comment he links to which is obviously not there to be seen, I do not think he is uninvolved enough to be making a decision on this matter. He must be very sensitive to my opinion about the glorification of the office of the U.S. President, but as anyone can see, I am not even editing Barack's BLP, although I did add some needed content To Bill Clinton's blp which was accepted as an improvement. Also, since many American children are told "one day you can be President", it is reasonable that most Americans, and even some American wannabes, might have a little bit of idolization of the office. Being a Canadian actually makes me more NPOV concerning U.S. politics, and that should be welcomed, I think, right? On the other hand, even if I DO have "wide-ranging ideas for correcting articles on American politics", isn't "correcting" a good thing? Doesn't that make our encyclopedia better? That is kindof what I did with my accepted edit on Donald Trump, changed "anti-immigrant" to "anti-illegal immigrant", which is how the cited source phrased it. No, Ed Johnstone's reasoning for banning me from U.S. politics, even if true, is absolutely the reason for encouraging my editing of US politics; i.e. to "correct" some sentences to comply with the sources. I also am shocked that there even exists such a broad ban as to exclude American politics. If an editor is so bad, ban the Editor, but to ban someone from American politics is something that can result, even if without intent, in censorship; which has no place here, I think. Plus, even if one accepts that there exists such a ban, I certainly, having not even received any kind of block, have not earned such a ban. A couple of you guys should be ashamed of yourselves for attacking me like this on such flimsy and light purported evidence, much less trying to silence my edits. My contributions to American politics far outweigh any short term dust ups with a few editors whose paranoia and bias against suspected "conservative","republican", and "right wing" publications and editors is obvious for all to see on the Huma Abedin and Hillary Clinton talk pages. Re: AFD=POINT: A couple of editors insist on not AGF re: my the AfD to delete Huma Abedin. Victoria Grayson, an editor with rollback privileges, voted "delete" on the the AfD to delete, as well as User:Hyperduc, a blemish free editor going back 6 years. These 2 delete votes should be enough to AGF that the nomination was not pointy, I ought to know, the reasons I gave in the nomination were and are still valid, in my opinion, and AGF should be given in that regard, I believe. NorthBySouthBaranof should be censored for misusing this venue, imo. Appeal? I am getting really pissed. Remember, before I said a word, and within 1 day, I was given a "result" on my talk page by Ed Johnstone; the result being a ban on all U.S. politics editing because I said this on a User's talk page, which Johnstone characterized as proof of "wide-ranging ideas for correcting articles on American politics"....WTF???, is the wide scope of the ban a punishment for saying I don't idolize the position of the President of the USA? If so, then we have a really big problem. This process so far seems to me to be anti-democratic and slanted towards extremely passive-aggressive, word twisting, trap laying, rule touting, full-time, embedded, "insider" editors who like to throw their "insider" weight around and expect honest editors (who give up valuable time to edit) to listen to their robotic repetitious threats and kiss their puffy asses. Its absurd and tyrannical that an editor like me, never blocked and with thousands of problem free edits on multiple U.S. political topics, should even be threatened with such a far-reaching ban. If I am banned from all U.S. political articles, I would appreciate any editors letting me know what appeals are available in addition to Jimbo's talk page as mentioned before by someone. Hopefully there are other appeals I do not know about, or even better, I won't get banned at all because none is deserved.Nocturnalnow (talk) 03:21, 20 December 2015 (UTC) Improper use of Checkuser in the Result section I seem to remember that the invasion of editor's privacy by checkuser is heavily restricted. Perhaps someone can tell me on my talk page where to complain about this casual usage based upon some kind of vague suspicion that the IP might have Wikipedia experience???? Well I'm suspicious that the requesting Admin just did not like the comment being made. This action by NuclearWarfare is enough to throw him out of the "uninvolved" admin. group eligible to make a decision here as he has, by publicly requesting checkuser, thrown suspicion upon the objectivity and value of the IPs comment as well as a thinly veiled suggestion that I or one of the editors opposing the cruel and unusual punishment that is planned for me from day 1 of this process, is using that IP. This enforcement process, in my case, is the most shameful thing I've seen on Wikipedia...it should be closed immediately in my favour as well as with an apology to the IP for invading his/her privacy just because you could. Nocturnalnow (talk) 04:57, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
_______________________
Here is my Christmas present to you all, from Canada. Nature Christmas Nocturnalnow (talk) 15:56, 23 December 2015 (UTC) Statement by GamalielOn their previous visit here (see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive184#Nocturnalnow), Nocturnalnow wrote "I am absolutely willing to stop editing the Abedin BLP" and "I also am accepting the constructive comments here by Gamaliel and others about me needing to read more about and practice more of our editing process and policies re: BLP". Neither statement seems to have been true. This editor's disruptive behavior has escalated since then, including a blatant WP:POINT violation of nominating the article for deletion. Gamaliel (talk) 05:32, 19 December 2015 (UTC) Canvassing by Nocturnal now: [46] [47] [48] Gamaliel (talk) 17:42, 20 December 2015 (UTC) @Vesuvius Dogg: It is a mischaracterization of EdJohnston's comments to say that he is advocating topic banning Nocturnalnow "based on a single diff". This diff is merely an illustration of Nocturnalnow's battleground mentality. The ban is justified by the many examples provided in this and the previous AE request. Gamaliel (talk) 17:44, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by JohnuniqNocturnalnow has a total of 420 edits, and 55% of those are to Huma Abedin or Hillary Clinton or their talk pages. That's not counting comments on those topics on other talk pages or the pointy AfD. The editor needs a far wider range of experience before righting-great-wrongs at the Clinton-related articles. Johnuniq (talk) 09:07, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by an IP editorThe POINTy AfD deserves at least a trout. The contested edit does not violate BLP and does not come anywhere close to it. The content was originally POINTily removed by NorthBySouthBaranof[49] minutes after NorthBySouthBaranof was accused by D.Creish of including an UNDUE amount of content.[50] The allegations against Abedin's family members came from their own magazine's masthead and were, obviously, proven true. This may be a minority viewpoint in NorthBySouthBaranof's so-called "reliable" sources but it is not fringe and obviously not discredited. NorthBySouthBaranof misrepresents the controversy to justify taking an extreme position in line with the Clinton machine's defenders while accusing everyone else of "partisan hackery", which does not lead to a constructive editing environment. If we are going to be strict about BLP, that is BLPVIO against the writers holding differing opinions. Gamaliel intentionally misrepresents Nocturnalnow's statement from the last ANI to falsely imply that Nocturnalnow had agreed to stop editing. Nocturnalnow's full statement expresses a desire to continue editing.
Gamaliel should be sanctioned for that deception. 50.196.177.155 (talk) 23:08, 19 December 2015 (UTC) Statement by Vesuvius DoggI'm most definitely an uninvolved editor here, having never (I think) made even a minor edit to Huma Abedin or Hillary Clinton. But I must object to EdJohnston's recommendation of an indefinite ban against Nocturnalnow extending to all articles involving American politics since 1932 (see below) based on a single diff on a Talk Page which, to my eyes, hardly demonstrates the kind of bias which should prompt such a blanket ban. Can this admin produce any other diffs to support this punitive action? This seems excessive, even vindictive. Wikipedia's disciplinary response should be far more measured. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 17:42, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Mouse001There are numerous problems with this request and comments made on here. First of all, EdJohnston's attempt to indefinitely ban NocturnalNow from the entire topic of American Politics is wholly unjustified and an act of blatant censorship. In addition to that, Gamaliel appears to have misrepresented NocturnalNow's statement, as the IP editor stated. NorthBySouthBaranof, who persistently edit wars(some examples here and here) and is obviously engaged in partisan editing, misrepresents NocturnalNow's activity for reasons stated by NocturnalNow, the IP editor, and my reasons below. The text that is part of the edit war that is presented in all four diffs of this arbitration request should NOT have been removed by NorthBySouthBaranof after it was re-inserted for the first time, due to lack of consensus for removal per WP:CON (the text was long-standing, as properly stated by NocturnalNow in his edit summary). NorthBySouthBaranof should have used the talk page to gain consensus, but instead he removed the material so he holds some responsibility for the edit war. NorthBySouthBaranof started using the talk page to gain consensus for the removal of the disputed article content after the second diff, so the first two diffs should be redacted from this arbitration request because NocturnalNow was justified in those reversions. I do not believe that NorthBySouthBaranof's statements hold water or warrant a ban of NocturnalNow. I would encourage an administrator reviewing this arbitration request to see it for what it is; an attempt to further a pro-Hillary agenda by oppressing an editor who is trying to make positive contributions to WP. --Mouse001 (talk) 03:16, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by CwobeelI think that the comments by Nocturnalnow in response to this enforcement request speak for themselves. After reading their comments, it should be obvious to an impartial observer that they are not here to build the pedia. A ban restricted to Clinton and Abedin articles may give them the chance to demonstrate otherwise, although given their poor understanding of what is a useful edit in a BLP, or their seeing this request as an attempt to "silence" them, does not bode well for the long term. - Cwobeel (talk) 00:57, 22 December 2015 (UTC) Case in point, their own words in today's post [51]: This process so far seems to me to be anti-democratic and slanted towards extremely passive-aggressive, word twisting, trap laying, rule touting, full-time, embedded, "insider" editors who like to throw their "insider" weight around and expect honest editors (who give up valuable time to edit) to listen to their robotic repetitious threats and kiss their puffy asses. Poor understanding would be a kind way to put it. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:32, 22 December 2015 (UTC) Statement by D.CreishIn the last month or so my only involvement has been reversion of the same inappropriate criticism of the congresspeople, twice inserted by the filer NorthBySouthBaranof - Nov 27th Dec 14th. It does seem like a BLP double standard's applied here: those arguing for removal of well sourced criticism of Abedin support insertion of lesser-sourced criticism of her accusers. For example, it took a number of weeks and discussions to remove "conspiracy theories" from the referenced section heading, when the term is used in only two cited sources: one an op-ed and the other a blog called The Sisterhood. Compare that with the content in offending diffs which Nocturnalnow was prevented from inserting: a comment from Newt Gingrich and content from the National Review. This double standard seems to extend to editors. I believe this is the second time NorthBySouthBaranof has brought action against NocturnalNow. He has not been subjected to similar action yet his behavior is arguably more contentious as he's less willing to engage in compromise (as the talk page quotes from Nocturnalnow show.) In part, Nocturnalnow's behavior is a response to this. The environment around this article is less than ideal. If it could be restricted to entirely perfect, non-partisan editors it would improve (although I might find myself ousted!) The second-best scenario would be to allow the partisanship on one side to balance the other, which is what we have here. The least ideal scenario would be to ban only one group of partisans, as the article would become either unreasonably negative or unreasonably positive. With the recent topic-ban of Professor JR and this proposed topic ban of Nocturnalnow that appears to be the unfortunate direction we're heading. What I'd like to see enforced instead is the encouragement of genuine talk page dialogue - no stonewalling, no double-standards and less hyperbole. D.Creish (talk) 02:00, 22 December 2015 (UTC) Statement by another IPHuma Abedin is not a person I know much about. The Dec 14 addition referenced Politico.Com and NationalReview.Com. Does NorthBy consider these reliable or unreliable sources... I am more concerned about whether sources backing info are reliable or not, than if individual users agree that we ought to include information. That said, NocturnalNow ought to use Template:Cite web to standardize the inclusion of these references. Regarding engaging in talk page conversation, it appears that Talk:Huma_Abedin#Renewed_edit-warring_around_issues_of_due_weight was not created by NorthBy until after the second edit cited above. I also notice that NorthBy did not bother to use the Ping Template to inform NocturnalNow that they were being addressed in the talk page. The dispute here appears to be that NocturalNow is saying the info is long-standing and needs consensus to remove, while NorthBy is saying it is new and needs consensus to include. This kind of dispute seems to happen a lot. It seems like the recentness of edits or whether users like them seems to matter more than whether information is reliably sourced. I think Wikipedia should be more about analyzing the validity of the sources and less about either side playing games where they can try and lock a piece of information in or out based on stalemates. I do not think it would be good for either of these editors to be excluded from this process. NB should have pinged NN before complaining about their lack of engagement in their talk page section, and should not have complained about edits made prior to beginning discussion or prior to notifying the person about that discussion. I think this request is premature and disagree with punishing NN until they have been allowed more time to actually engage in discussion of the topic on that talk page. Far as I know, this request is the first observable instance of NN being informed by NB about a talk being in progress about their edits, efforts should have been made to include them privately before resorting to this. --184.146.6.191 (talk) 12:24, 22 December 2015 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Nocturnalnow
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Minor4th
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Minor4th
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Alexbrn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 17:02, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Minor4th (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#1RR_imposed
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically_modified_organisms#Discretionary_Sanctions
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
1RR violation:
- Yesterday: initial revert (@ 08:31, 20 December 2015) to modify lede to remove mention of "cancer", then today:
- revert @ 15:40, 21 December 2015
- revert @ 16:14, 21 December 2015 (note also a WP:CRYBLP in the ES)
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
This editor appears to want to remove the word "cancer" from the lede, and is edit-warring in pursuit of that apparent objective.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- Responses to the statements of others
@Minor4th: Your statement makes it seem you think you have access to The Truth™ of this matter, and so can edit-war to correct what you see as an "error". I think you're wrong and your use of sources here is selective and muddled. But this is not the place for that content dispute (which continues on the article Talk page), but to address the question of your 1RR violation. Alexbrn (talk) 08:04, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
@AlbinoFerret: We do not need a WP:MEDRS to tell us what a journal article claimed, since that question is one of textual interpretation, and obviously not a WP:BIOMEDICAL question subject to procedures like systematic review etc. However if you want a journal article than mentions "cancer" then check out the title of PMID 23430588. Generally, the medical literature uses the more technical caricno-stemmed wording, which we should translate into lay terms for our audience. Alexbrn (talk) 15:15, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
@Masem: You appear to be incorrect in saying Séralini avoided cancer claims. His paper mentions it has found "serious suspicion of carcinogenicity" and our 2012 Nature news source[53] tells us: "Séralini has promoted the cancer results as the study’s major finding, through a tightly orchestrated media offensive". Alexbrn (talk) 17:45, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
@Atsme: I did not violate 1RR. I take it you know consecutive edits by an editor count as but a single edit? I would also question your self-designation as "uninvolved" given you've just been party to a case investigating problematic GMO editors. Alexbrn (talk) 19:52, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Minor4th
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Minor4th
General response to enforcement request
Diff #2 [54] provided in the OP is not a revert. It is an edit. The only revert in the 24 hour period by me was the single revert shown in Diff #3, wherein I also cited the BLP violation. There is no dispute that is a revert, and whether or not you agree that it remedies a BLP violation, it's only a single revert and does not violate the ARB restriction.
Clarification needed: If I am wrong about this, then I need someone to clearly explain how diff #2 is a revert. If that's the case then virtually every edit could be called a revert because nearly every edit changes some previous editor's work. If that's the rule then I'll abide by it, but that essentially means that editors can only make one edit (or several consecutive edits) per page per day in the topic area. I don't think that is what was intended.
Specific responses to comments
Alexbrn is edit warring in the word "cancer" in the lead contrary to the scientific sources - and that creates a BLP issue because he's attributing the conclusion "there's a strong link between GMO and cancer" to a scientist who did not make that conclusion. This is intentional to make the scientist look like a lunatic by falsely attributing outrageous claims to him. This is a prima facie BLP violation. Minor4th 17:45, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
@EdJohnston: I agree to self revert, but I cannot concede that "cancer" and "tumors" mean the same thing in this context because that is false. If the closing admin or anyone making comments here does not understand the difference between "cancer" and "tumor" in this study, then you don't understand the study or the science. And if you don't understand the study, you don't understand the whole underpinning of the "Seralini affair." One must be able to properly evaluate the sources in this area to edit with competency.
For reliable sources regarding "cancer" vs. "tumor", see the following related RS:
1. Retractionwatch [55]:
Seralini and his colleagues provide a timeline in the press materials of their version of events. One element in particular caught our eye:
Wallace Hayes wrote an article to defend his position that raises doubts about his understanding of the study and raw data. He mentions in his defense he was unable to conclude that “there was a clear link between GMO and cancer.” An obvious error of W. Hayes as the term “cancer” has never been mentioned in the paper of Séralini’s research team. And it does not affect any aspect of the research on Roundup.
Now, “tumor” and “cancer” are not necessarily the same thing. But the original paper certainly referred to tumors repeatedly, and Seralini, as Nature reported at the time,
2. Republication of the retracted paper [56], clarifying that the study was not a cancer study:
This study constitutes a follow-up investigation of a 90-day feeding study conducted by Monsanto in order to obtain commercial release of this GMO, employing the same rat strain and analyzing biochemical parameters on the same number of animals per group as our investigation. Our research represents the first chronic study on these substances, in which all observations including tumors are reported chronologically. Thus, it was not designed as a carcinogenicity study.
3. Nature [57]. This is the EXACT quote that Alexbrn proposed on the talk page when we started discussing this a couple of days ago, and now he is complaining that I am edit warring the word "tumor" in:
Séralini's team had found that rats fed for two years with a glyphosate-resistant type of maize (corn) made by Monsanto developed many more tumours and died earlier than did control animals. It also found that the rats developed tumours when Roundup was added to their drinking water.
(edited) Minor4th 21:17, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
@EdJohntson - I was fixing a factual error, not just playing around with wording. Minor4th 06:02, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
' Kingifaces43's aspersions - Kingofaces43 is casting aspersions by calling my edits "advocacy" and describing me as being the subject of many warnings and disputes in this topic area. That is false on its face. Please look at Kingofaces43's continued aspersions against editors he doesn't like and how it promotes battlefield editing in this controversial topic. Sanctions against KOA are appropriate per DS. Minor4th 00:31, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Tryptofish - I have agreed to self revert and stated that I did not intentionally violate any editing restriction - but it's improper to ask for a concession on the substantive issue of whether "cancer" = "tumor." Minor4th 19:50, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Masem has evaluated the situation exactly right. Minor4th 19:55, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Montanabw has correctly described the edits and distinguished a legitimate edit from a revert. Minor4th 21:17, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by David Tornheim
Alexbrn is violating consensus. I will explain further after doing more research. --David Tornheim (talk) 17:21, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
AlexBrn is just as guilty of edit warring (see list of diffs below). But worse, he has attempted to edit-war in the cancer claims both without consensus and in light of misrepresentations about the study. The discussion continues on the Seralini page and the lede, a discussion I started here. Others are currently working together to try to come to a consensus decision (Tyrptofish here KingofAces43 here and me here). AlexBrn's claims of "consensus" like this, and this comment are not helping. AlexBrn's attempt to force in the language "claimed there was a strong link between genetically modified organisms and cancer" is not helping. The original study does not even mention any connection to cancer. AlexBrn correctly pointed out that the revised republished study does speak of a "serious suspicion of carcinogenicity"; however, the Abstract clearly states that the study "was not designed as a carcinogenicity study." And in the sentence before and after the quote about a "suspicion of carcinogenicity", it is reasserted that it is a toxicity study and not a full carcinogenicity study. The texts says a full carcinogenicity study "would be a rational follow-up investigation". (Republished Study) In responding to the Editor who was hired to retract the original published study, Seralini said:
- In fact you clarified your position in a statement published in FCT: “To be very clear, it is the entire paper, with the claim that there is definitive link between GMO and cancer that is being retracted” (Hayes, 2014). Yet we made no such “claim” in our paper. We drew no inference and made no claims about “cancer” ; nowhere did we claim a “definitive link between GMO and cancer”. It should be noted that tumorigenesis is not synonymous with cancer. Tumours can be in some cases more rapidly lethal than cancers because their size can cause hemorrhages and possible impairments of vital organs, as well as secretion of toxins.
AlexBrn's edit-warring in cancer claims without consensus and with disregard for misrepresentations about the study is in violation of WP:BRD:
- [58] Revision as of 07:27, December 20, 2015 -- AlexBrn added language "claimed there was a strong link between genetically modified organisms and cancer,"
- [59] Revision as of 15:44, December 21, 2015 -- puts the language back in after being reverted
- [60] Revision as of 16:02, December 21, 2015 -- again puts the language back in after being reverted.
--David Tornheim (talk) 17:55, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Re Mystery Wolff's post:
- I agree that Minor4th's edits are GoodFaith and should not be sanctioned.
- I disagree about GMO Page Protection. I do not believe I have sufficient space to explain why here.
--David Tornheim (talk) 08:14, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Tryptofish
For purposes of evaluating whether edits were reverts, I do not think that, in this context, it is useful to treat "tumors" as different than "cancer". (There are such things as benign tumors, but the source material here is about cancerous tumors.) I also think that we need to be careful about invocations of BLP. I'm no lawyer, but it is hard for me to believe that a successful defamation claim would result simply from saying that a scientific journal article made some conclusions about carcinogenicity; I suspect that the defamation was more about accusations of scientific fraud. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:18, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- I agree strongly with Looie's comment about the need to start setting boundaries (in a dispute that I think is metasticising more than Seralini's rats). I also consider the special pleading that has been rife in this discussion, that maybe Seralini said that the tumors were benign tumors, and that that makes edit warring justified, to be a distraction. This isn't an AE about which sentence should use the word "cancer". It's an AE about disruptive conduct. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:59, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- Looking back here, in terms of the advice from the administrator about conceding the point, it sure looks to me like no one is conceding anything, and that's all the more reason to set boundaries. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:36, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by JzG
This was not an accidental violation, IMO. For some reason that entirely escapes me, both Minor4th and David Tornheim seem to want to use technical jargon (tumour, mutagenic) in place of the plain English preferred by many of the reliable sources on which we base the article. The claim that this is a WP:BLP violation is without merit, since it is not our claim but that of the reliable independent sources (example). It's worth remembering that a significant part of the criticism of this study centres on its prior release to journalists via a press briefing. It is not unreasonable to conclude that the source of the link to cancer is Séralini himself - many of the news articles are, after all, illustrated with a photo of Séralini holding up a rat with cancer. Guy (Help!) 00:10, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
@Atsme: the diffs you present do not constitute more than one revert to the article. Nor are they problematic: they restore consensus versions following discussion on Talk, in each case removing POV WP:BOLDly added by one or more apparent partisans. Guy (Help!) 16:17, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
@AlbinoFerret: MEDRS does not apply in this specific instance because we are not claiming that thr Séralini affair does or does not cure cancer, we are covering the Séralini affair as a drama that played out in the popular press, largely because of Séralini's media manipulation (dramas solely within the scientific press are rarely notable). We don't need a MEDRS to say how the popular press represented what they were spoon-fed by Séralini, to go back to what is defensible from the paper is fallacious precisely because Séralini's message, i.e. the Séralini affair, went far beyond what could be defended from the actual study results. Which is why the paper was retracted, and why we have the article in the first place. Guy (Help!) 13:58, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Looie496
This is now the fourth enforcement request derived from the GMO case, none of which have produced any action. Admins should consider that each violation that slips by will only encourage further violations, increasing the magnitude of the enforcement actions that will ultimately have to taken. Worse, it is likely that the violations that are ultimately sanctioned will come from editors who don't really want to violate the remedies but feel forced to in response to violations from others. In other words, failure to set clear boundaries is only going to end up hurting the editors you are trying to be nice to, because they are going to keep testing the boundaries regardless of how far they have shifted. Looie496 (talk) 13:51, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Capeo
The RS say "cancer" so cancer is what we should say. That's why we prefer secondary sources over primary ones. We need not reflect Seralini's equivocating that he never said cancer when his entire emphasis, and the impetus for the criticism and notability of this whole affair, was the cancerous tumors in the rats that he showcased more than any other thing. There's no BLP violation in following the RS characterization of the paper. Capeo (talk) 14:41, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Alexbrn already stated this but there's no MEDRS claim so there's no need for MEDRS compliant sources. This is about describing why the paper was controversial and what AlbinoFerret called a letter to the editor is actually the editor in chief of the journal describing why the article was retracted. A person more than qualified to contextualize the paper. And what AlbinoFerret calls gaming is usually called consensus. Capeo (talk) 15:36, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Masem, this isn't an article about the paper itself. It's and article about the controversy surrounding it and the main cause of the controversy is that, despite Seralini's equivocating, the paper connected GMOs to causing "cancerous" tumors, which is wording Seralini has used in interviews on his own web page. This connection was reinforced by Seralini himself as the tumors were the emphasis of his own press releases. The fact that he backed off on it after being called on it has no bearing on what caused the controversy itself. Even the republished paper is still loaded with pics of rats with tumors despite his claims and he rightly got called out about it yet again. Capeo (talk) 16:58, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
And I have to laugh that people are talking about MEDRS when a retracted paper republished in a zero impact journal isn't a MEDRS in the first place. Capeo (talk) 17:19, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Masem, the paper has zero scientific notability at this point and falls firmly into WP:FRINGE. Its only notability is the reaction to it connecting GMOs to cancer. The article already mentions that Seralini claims he never said cancer. Generally speaking we need to mention why this event is even notable in the first place in the lede before anything else. That's aside from the fact that Seralini says things like " In our study, we never mentioned the word cancer, because there were tumours, which varied from more or less cancerous." [61] That doesn't even make sense. And Seralini outright claims the very WP:FRINGE POV that his paper proves GMOs are toxic and cause tumors. This isn't a scientific topic. It's purely fringe and should be treated the same way we treat other fringe topics. Capeo (talk) 17:41, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Masem, it says nothing about it being a "cancer study" and makes no claim that is was. It says simply what the RS say, which is the only reason it is notable, which is that it connected GMOs to cancer, which is what we should say. That can then be followed up with Seralini's denial and why RS completely rejected said denial due to Seralini's own sensationalist emphasis on the tumor results over all else. Tumors he himself called cancerous. Capeo (talk) 18:20, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
This is actually from the retractionwatch source Minor4th posted above. They note Nature reported that Seralini "has promoted the cancer results as the study’s major finding, through a tightly orchestrated media offensive that began last month and included the release of a book and a film about the work." Capeo (talk) 19:12, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by AlbinoFerret
Looking at the sources, a letter to the editor, a news article in a journal, one in the popular press. I question if these pass WP:MEDRS because the sources are coming to a biomedical conclusion (cancer). Are there any MEDRS sources that use the term cancer? This is also a problem mentioned in the Workshop, multiple editors reverting. Sadly the abs didnt put a stop to multiple editors jumping in and reverting. What it ends up doing is editing by mob rule, whoever has the biggest group wins instead of discussion. That is gaming the system. AlbinoFerret 14:58, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
@Alexbrn As pointed out in Masem's post below, The original paper did not mention cancer. Sources coming to that conclusion should be MEDRS compliant. AlbinoFerret 17:05, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Kingofaces43
In addition to the reverts and gaming of BLP described here, there are also violations covered by pseudoscience/fringe discretionary sanctions.[62] Those sanctions deal with behavior issues closely tied with content. Improper escalation (such as this BLP invocation) is also covered in this related case. Even in Minor4th's section above and the article, they have violated WP:OR in the manner they have tried to argue that reliable sources are "WRONG" from personal opinion and trying to unduly validate the WP:FRINGE point of view of the BLP subject.[63] The events of the controversy are already accurately described by multiple reliable sources even without WP:PARITY in mind.
Especially given the variety of issues here they are still digging in on (and lack of enforcement so far in other cases), we've reached the point at least with this editor that the time of warnings being useful has long passed considering they've followed drama on this topic for awhile now. We need the sanctions to be enforced to stop disruptive behavior like this or remove editors with ingrained problems. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:21, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- Just a note that Atsme below is highly involved in following the drama on this topic being extensively involved in the ArbCom case, especially after many editors involved in WP:MEDRS and fringe topics tried to deal with their problem behaviors at fringe BLP topics (e.g., [64]). Not directly involved in GMOs per se, but highly involved in purusing editors that have tried to deal with their behavior problems at ANI, etc. in the past. Peripheral editors like this are a problem in this topic (as seen by the number of people that come to GMO enforcement cases), but I'm not sure if or how that can be handled. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:57, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
-
- @Atsme: I'm not going to engage your behavior issues here further [65][66] However, those issues[67][68][69] are going to be mentioned when you claim yourself to be uninvolved when inserting yourself into topics at ArbCom or noticeboards related to editors you have been very involved with dealing with your behavior. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:56, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Masem, the key detail you missed was that Seralini did try to make the association to cancer, both in media interviews after publication and within the paper (i.e., waving around a bunch of pictures of rats with tumors with no controls or statistical tests). When a WP:FRINGEBLP is criticized for their actions and they backtrack contrary to actual events that they never said something, we don't give that point of view any weight at the article or here at this board. The characterization that Seralini did not try to portray a link between glyphosate, GMOs, etc. and cancer is distinctly a fringe point of view.
I'll also ping @EdJohnston: to read the above since they've been pinged recently about Masem's summarization. Additionally, we so far have a few policy violations by Minor4th, some of this case being muddled by the fringe content aspect, and comments like Atsme's that are trying to go after Alexbrn for responding to Minor4th's advocacy in a reasonable manner. We're in a situation where some editors will push and push the line, and other editors will go after the editor who tries to respond to that in these boards. I don't have any solutions for that, but any thoughts on how to potentially handle this situation we've had in the last few requests here? Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:02, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Atsme
I am an uninvolved editor regarding this article. I don't edit articles involving GMOs, etc. but I do edit BLPs. I ask that the admins who are following this case to please make note of the following before drawing their conclusions:
ALEXBRN REVERTS (uses TW to avoid individual reverts which also needs to be noted, and also uses rather evasive edit summaries to diffuse attention to the fact he is edit warring and changing the context of a statement):
It appears Alexbrn has also violated 1RR and has established a patterned behavior of edit warring. Just look at how the edit history plays out which is why I can't understand why Minor4th has been targeted as the sole violator:
- December 21st
- Minor4th (cur | prev) 16:14, December 21, 2015
- Alexbrn (cur | prev) 16:03, December 21, 2015
- Alexbrn (cur | prev) 16:02, December 21, 2015
- Alexbrn (cur | prev) 15:44, December 21, 2015
- Minor4th (cur | prev) 15:40, December 21, 2015
- Alexbrn (cur | prev) 14:53, December 21, 2015
- December 20th
- Minor4th (cur | prev) 23:38, December 20, 2015
- (two in-between edits by another editor)
- Minor4th (cur | prev) 13:27, December 20, 2015
- Alexbrn (cur | prev) 08:31, December 20, 2015
- Alexbrn (cur | prev) 07:34, December 20, 2015
- Alexbrn (cur | prev) 07:32, December 20, 2015
- Alexbrn (cur | prev) 07:27, December 20, 2015
- Alexbrn (cur | prev) 07:02, December 20, 2015
Thank you for attention to this matter. Atsme📞📧 16:27, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- Admins, your attention, please
The diff Kingofaces included to discredit me was unwarranted and worse, based on a false allegation of me being a SPA in an old AN/I case. My edit history has long since proven my purpose on WP and that the allegation was false and unwarranted. I tried to get ArbCom to address his behavior but since it was not within the locus of the case, they dismissed it. I have not mentioned his name in this incident prior to now so why is he allowed to besmirch my reputation, and attempt to discredit my statement here as an uninvolved editor? If it's not considered bullying, it is certainly harassment and actionable behavior either way. He has been warned more than once, but because he keeps getting away with it, he keeps bringing it up. Ignoring it does nothing but embolden him all the more, and that isn't what should be happening right under the noses of multiple admins. Please stop his disruption and attempts to divert attention away from this very important case. Atsme📞📧 21:32, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- Kingofaces, your harassing me does not make me an involved editor but it does draw attention to your bullying. I'd offer you a backhoe but you're digging a pretty deep hole without one. Atsme📞📧 23:17, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- EdJohnston, since you are the admin overseeing this AE request, please take the appropriate action against Kingofaces for his unwarranted attempts to intimidate me by dredging up diffs that have no relevance to this case, and that clearly demonstrate his intention to besmirch my reputation. According to WP:Civility, such behavior is actionable, especially when it is repeated over and over again as Kingofaces has done...and he's doing it right under your nose. Atsme📞📧 23:41, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- JzG, with all due respect....as I've been advised by an admin in the past - even if you believe you are right you cannot edit war. As you know, the number of reverts are not a requisite for an editor to be blocked for edit warring,[70]. It's rather obvious who made the most edits/reverts/changes and created a battleground, and it wasn't Minor4th. Also, Kingofaces violated WP:CIVILITY policy by dredging up diffs in his relentless attempts to besmirch me and diffuse my participation in important discussions. The fact that his behavior continues to be ignored is shameful, especially at this venue, and is beginning to smell a lot like the stench of bias and double standards. Atsme📞📧 19:27, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- Alexbrn whether you violated 1RR doesn't really matter. Admins know the rules about battleground, gaming strategies, group support, and the like. I'm simply stating facts and presenting diffs to support them. You were edit warring, and doing so is just as actionable as violating 1RR so there is no need to belabor or argue the point. Furthermore, your strawman argument that I was named in the GMO ArbCom case has nothing to do with your battleground behavior at the Seralini BLP. I never edited that article - you did. My recommendation here is a good trouting for the edit warriors, and an iBan against Kingofaces for his unconscionable behavior toward me and his aspersions against Minor4th on this noticeboard, not to mention other venues. He has a serious issue in that regard, and it will require admin intervention to correct it. Atsme📞📧 20:21, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by uninvolved Masem
Reviewing the base situation from someone uninvolved with GMO articles, but otherwise able to look at the scenario from a scientific viewpoint:
- A professor, whose past publications and statements have appeared to make him critical of GMO, publishes a reviewed paper that from lab studies that certain GMO products cause rats to develop more tumors and die sooner than control specimens. The paper appears to purposely avoid attaching the word "cancer" to the results.
- The paper on publication is criticized by many third-parties (attracted by the established aspect of the professor's criticism of GMO), claiming that the linkage of GMO to "cancer" (their words) was not shown by appropriate scientific methods. The paper is ultimately pulled, even with the editor-in-chief commenting on the claim about timing GMO to cancer.
- The professor restates that his paper was not a cancer study, and before it was pulled, has the work amended to make this clear.
While "tumor" and "cancer" may be synonymous in some areas (such as everyday language one might use with friends or family), this seems like a matter of scientific precision in a hotly contested area (GMO) and the need to distinguish between the two (as the professor apparently took steps to do and had to clarify this), even if others in the scientific community felt the tumor study was really an obfuscated cancer study. So for our article to claim, factually, that the professor wrote a cancer study is not appropriate. It's an edge case of BLP, as we are putting other people's words to speak for the professor's intentions when he has made it clear in verified manners of what his intent was (not a cancer study), even though we are otherwise not talking about specific claims about the professor himself that BLP normally covers. It is still is fair to include the fact that other scientists took the paper as a cancer study and thus were very critical of how the study was done that they saw the linkage of GMO to cancer, but in introducing the paper for the first time in the lede and in the body, it should not be called a cancer study if the professor has been very clear this was not the intent. Even if every other scientist in the area commented that the professor's paper was a cancer study but the professor remained insistent it wasn't, we should still be respecting the claim of the professor first followed by the claims by everyone else to stay consistent with BLP. If anything this is more a situation that falls under WP:YESPOV, where we clearly have a controversial statement (if the paper was a tumor or a cancer study), so there's a proper way to approach this.
In terms of the actions of the editors, I do think that the BLP issue is there, but it is very much an edge case which did not need immediate attention as most BLP violations typically require but instead more discussion and possibly more eyes on it. Actions by both editors should be at least trouted and warned against, particularly as at the time across these changes there was an active discussion. --MASEM (t) 16:36, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
(Moved replies to Capeo and Kingofaces43 to User:Masem/GMOcaseComments due to statement length)
Statement by uninvolved MarkBernstein
- Masem is correct: the distinction between "tumor" and "cancer" is indeed significant, and is not merely semantic evasion. I have not reviewed the paper or the subsequent literature, but if Masem’s review is correct, @EdJohnston:’s preliminary conclusion cannot be.
- With respect, I disagree with JzG that we should prefer “plain English” to technical terms such as “ tumor" and "mutagenic". Jargon should be avoided where possible, but precise language is sometimes necessary. Evidence has been presented that the test animals developed tumors, but not that these tumors are in fact malignant; it makes sense that the article reflect this until the question is settled.
- You can’t settle this without assessing the scientific evidence; if you try, you may embarrass the project.
- As other editors have said above, you can’t punt the issues indefinitely without nullifying the GMO decision. The latter might be the best course of action, though this is probably not the place to do that.
- Does misstating or misrepresenting -- perhaps unintentionally -- the conclusion of a scientific paper written by a living person violate BLP? I cannot think that it does, reserving possible exceptions for malice and for unreasonable or incredible distortion. If scientific articles are to be simultaneously edited by experts and by laypersons, misunderstandings will arise. Do we want to place every scientific and engineering topic under discretionary sanctions? A considerable portion of the technical literature, after all, is written by people who are currently living.
- 1RR as currently understood may prove unfeasible in contentious technical areas. As JzG demonstrates, one editor may reasonably perceive a merely semantic distinction where another editor perceives a substantive correction. This invites games of gotcha.MarkBernstein (talk) 17:16, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Montanabw
Looking at the history and the current version of this article, it appears that Minor4th made an appropriate correction and it was the other user who was edit-warring and attacking Minor4th. Minor 4th made an edit, was reverted and then restored the edit -- that was an edit 1RR, not 2. I think that a warning should suffice on this one, as it is clear that NPOV and proper phrasing of a BLP trumps other matters. Montanabw(talk) 18:49, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by uninvolved Mystery Wolff
I am now familiar with GMOrganisms and related pages from this AE page due to my short time needing to check it for another article set. Reading the comments I believe I agree most with Montanabw above, except I do not believe Minor4th should be warned because its not 1RR. Also 1RR is such a tight standard good faith NPOV and really minor edits, should be allowed. The BLP points are also well taken.
But what I really think is that what I will call the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly solution should be deployed. WP:[GBU]?
In the movie of the same name North and South are fighting over the same bridge, each day, lots of deaths, no progress, cease fires to clean up the bodies and rinse and repeat. The only solution to stop the carnage and deaths, was to blow up the Bridge.
This situation is just going to keep on going for GMO and related. So I think the Admins should just agree to blow up the bridge, and put in Full Protection of the entire set of articles. Then on a once a week move schedule, an admin will move into the articles, the agreed upon changes out of TALK. Nothing is going to be earthshakingly different that article and the outside readers won't benefit from a more stable viewable article.
Its just far to big of an Enclopedia to see these same topics coming back and back to AE. 3 times in 2 weeks, at least for GMO. And just like GBU, there seems to be more and more bodies that can get banned for GMO. Just blow up the bridge. Take away the thing they are fighting over. You can generated more ARBs more AE's and more methods to techically bypass the DS and warnings. Or just blow up the bridge, send to full protection. Given the science and controversy I don't think it will every come out of Full Protection, but that is OK, because of the sheer time savings to all.
Summary: Send to full protection.....Blow up the bridge per WP:GBU. Mystery Wolff (talk) 14:02, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Result concerning Minor4th
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
The difference between 'cancer' and 'tumor' in the lead doesn't appear enough to justify Minor4th's claim of a BLP violation. Even if you insist that 'cancer' should be 'tumor' the first time around, the word cancer still appears multiple times elsewhere in the lead, and also appears in the title of one of the references provided (Arjo et al):"..an in depth analysis of the Séralini et al. study claiming that Roundup™ Ready corn or the herbicide Roundup™ cause cancer in rats". Since Minor4th is only tweaking the wording and not fixing a factual error, this series of edits is just a plain 1RR violation by Minor4th. A block should be discussed unless Minor4th will concede the point. EdJohnston (talk) 01:15, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
-
- The 1RR rule is established to allow quick action on simple violations. Since the complaint has been open for five days there is no more chance of a quick action. Our article on the Séralini affair article doesn’t put Séralini in a good light. It passes along the published criticism to our readers. The reverts that were submitted for admin action in this complaint don't change the overall verdict much, so the intensity of the brief revert war seems out of proportion to anything that could be gained. This request should be closed with no action. All parties should be aware that continued edit warring won’t be tolerated. EdJohnston (talk) 06:55, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
- I generally concur with EdJohnson, including his last sentence. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:23, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Volunteer Marek-personal attacks and incivility
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Volunteer_Marek
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- MyMoloboaccount (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 07:50, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Volunteer_Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- You are warned that further comments which constitute personal attacks or incivility, such as [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Anna_Politkovskaya&diff=680892973&oldid=680890853 this will result in a block or other sanction. This is a logged warning issues under the discretionary sanctions authorised by the Arbitration Committee's decision on Eastern Europe (which you are "aware" of due to this alert). The procedure to appeal this sanction are here. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:54, 14 September 2015 (UTC)] :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- congratulations, you just managed to turn the article into an even bigger piece of POV crap than it already was 22:37, 22 December 2015 Hostile and insulting description of another users edits, that is unconstructive and incivil
- Can the POV get more ridiculous? , Gimme a fucking break. Can you at least pretend that you're trying to be neutral here? , “And also note that the edit stupidly leaves the "against Hungary" 22:45, 22 December 2015 Hostile attack instead of trying to discuss the issue, from start confrontational and incivil, uses swear words to attack another editor, calling his edits stupid
- false edit summary which claims that it just "add source with quote" (please don't lie),You are using false edit summaries to hide the fact that you are doing nothing else but edit warring 22:02, 22 December 2015 Accusses other editor of lying, obvious incivility
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Was warned about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 21 July 2015
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
VM has been warned several times about being incivility he engages in with other editors and personal attacks. He was warned by admin twice to stop being incivil and abusive towards others. In the past I have requested this as well several times[71],[72]. The above examples are only recent. If required I can provide examples going back a month or more.This is an ongoing and persistent issue.
While there will be always disagreements about wording of article, sources or content, such disputes should be done in civil way worthy of encyclopedia. Shouting at other editors, using swear words, naming their edits as crap goes against this principle. VM was warned to stop being incivil and attacking others and in my view he violated his warning in the examples I have provided.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested [73]
====Response to Bishonen====: Like MastCell, I might have used different words than VM, but I'm against sanctioning editors for speaking impatiently to those who try to degrade content, or for using swear words. Volunteer_Marek was already sanctioned and warned due to his incivil behaviour by an administrator earlier. Hence I am calling for enforcement. This is not a single slip or incident.It is an ongoing issue that VM has been asked time and time again to correct( I believe I asked him to stop this three times at least).He constantly acts incivil and offensive towards others,and this is a behavior that has been going on since years(links can be provided if requested). As I mentioned earlier-due to this he was warned earlier to act in civil way way by an administrator-twice and warned that incivility and personal attacks should stop least he be blocked. If he or you want to appeal his warning and removed from sanctions lists-be my guest, that's fine. But here I am asking for enforcing an already existing sanction, not making a new one.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:42, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Update:
To prove that this is not a new thing and result of ongoing incivility, please see my edits over the years where I have asked VM time and time again to stop personal attacks and incivility. I am also posting my comment from last November where I have pleaded for him to stop, and that I will be forced to ask for official intervention if he continues the attacks.
--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:59, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Response to Kingsindian
This is a transparent attempt to win a content dispute using this board Please see my links above. VM has been engaging in such behavior for years. I have asked him to stop already last year in November and stated that I will have to ask for official intervention if he doesn't cease.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:05, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Edits by VM since this request has been filled
Since this request has been filled Volunteer_Marek has engaged in edits that were incivil and personal attacks
- Yet, you show up here a month later, trying to poison the well, and try to start up a little lynch mob. I cannot but conclude that you are just holding a grudge over... not sure what exactly. It's exactly this kind of petty behavior This is an incivil comment and personal attack against another user.
Again a personal attack.If the user is indeed a sockpuppet, then a proper procedure should have been requested to confirm this, instead of resolving to personal attack. I believe both examples to be in violation of his sanctions. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:51, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Volunteer_Marek
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Volunteer_Marek
1. The edit describes the article, i.e. content. One might disagree with the assessment (I do wish there was a template which said "Unfortunately, currently this article is crap" that could be slapped on appropriate articles but alas!) but feigning offense and trying to use that to win a dispute is far more disruptive than the use of the word "crap". And yes, the article was bad to begin with. MyMoloboaccount, who has never edited this article before (AFAIK) jumped in the middle of my attempts to fix it, because of the dispute we had at another article, Economy of Poland. I believe this pretty much defines the concept of "revenge reverting"
2. Well, for this one you just need to actually see the comment itself. Here is the diff again [77]. MyMoloboaccount changed text ""The Warsaw Pact's largest military engagements were aimed against its own members—in 1956 against Hungary and in 1968 against Czechoslovakia" to the obviously non-neutral "The Warsaw Pact's largest military engagements were aimed at internal security of member states during 1956 against Hungary and in 1968 against Czechoslovakia" (describing the bloody repression of the Hungarian uprising in which thousands of people were murdered and tens of thousands repressed and tortured as "a matter of internal security" is not only tasteless, but obviously POV). The edit also made a grammatical mess of the sentence and resulted in a statement which contradicted itself. I'm sorry but this is pretty much the definition of over-the-top POV pushing and calling it what it is is perfectly warranted.
3. MyMoloboaccount did in fact use the edit summary "minor changes" [78] (and [79] here again) to ... "label", edits which were non-minor, and in fact were a pretty blatant attempt to POV the article. Here is the relevant exchange on talk (which for some reason MyMoloboaccount failed to link to - wonder why) in which he tries to evade the question and continues to pretend that his edits were "minor". The conversation clearly indicates lack of good faith on the part of the user. In my time on Wikipedia, this kind of behavior has been generally regarded as extremely disruptive and dishonest and has quickly led to a block, especially when done by an editor who's been around for a long time and should know better. To make highly POV changes and hide them behind false edit summaries, and then complain when someone points out that your edit summaries aren't exactly 100% kosher, really takes some chutzpah.
MyMoloboaccount repeatedly edit warred to reinsert text which misrepresented sources - even after I've asked him about it several times on talk. And even after I've explicitly pointed out to him that the text misrepresented the sources. And even when I asked him point blank about which part of a particular source was suppose to support the text. The relevant talk page discussions (or actually, lack thereof, on the part of my MyMoloboaccount) are here (note lack of response), here (basically evading the question) and here (same as the diff above - but note that here I am forced to ask the same question for the third time without a response).
The above discussions clearly indicate WP:TENDENTIOUS behavior on the part of the user. For the record, this kind of pattern has been noted before by others, for example by User:Iryna Harpy (for example here and here, there's more though it might take a bit of time to find it). Likewise, this isn't the first time that MyMoloboaccount has tried to misrepresent sources on Wikipedia (see here and here for detailed explanations). Dealing with such a user, although they pretend at "civility", is extremely frustrating and it is a textbook example of someone who is not engaged with the project in good faith and is in fact... well, driving people crazy, with WP:CRUSH.
Also, for the record, it should be noted that while the user MyMoloboaccount may appear to have a fairly clean block log [80], the actual block log, in all its full page glory is here. The lack of blocks between the new and the old account has to do with the indefinite block that was in place in between (the indefinite block which was lifted after, I'm sorry to say, to a significant extent because I personally argued for its lifting because I believed that MyMoloboaccount/Molobo deserved a second chance. No good deed... like they say) (or maybe that was a bad deed, I didn't realize it at the time, and now I'm just getting my comeuppance?)
Anyway, Happy Holidays and Wesolych Swiat. Volunteer Marek 09:01, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
@Spartaz. Ok, look, Spartaz, do what you think is appropriate and whatever it is I'm not going to hold it against you. I've been on Wikipedia a long time and I've donated a lot of my free time, which I value highly, to the project. The way I see it, I'm doing Wikipedia a favor by editing here, not vice versa. Of course Wikipedia drives one crazy. The backstabbing, the gratuitous lynch mobs, the lying-with-the-straight face and most of all the thick thick hypocrisy, all more than present in this request and its comments. I realized long time ago that the only way I could continue participating here is by approaching in a way which did not implicitly accept, perpetuate and enable all of those things, in as straight forward manner as possible. Not bullshiting people but not tolerate all the bullshit that falls in one's lap either. So yes, my comments are always direct and to the point, I state my objections explicitly, I express my frustration when someone's obviously not acting in good faith, and I speak the way that grown ups in the real world speak (yes, even in professional settings). Of course this being Wikipedia people will try to use that against you to win disputes and as a way of furthering their agenda. Shrug.
So no, I don't think I made any "personal attacks". I used words which some people will try and pretend they find offensive. I was critical of another editor's editing behavior. But neither of these are personal attacks. Saying to someone "you POV'ed the article" is NOT a personal attack and you won't be able to find a Wikipedia policy that says so. Maybe I didn't put it in the most diplomatic way possible but so what? If I had said "you're a bad person because you POV'ed the article" or some version of that THAT would've been a personal attack. But calling people out on their atrocious behavior and disruptive editing (and I'm sorry but MyMoloboaccount WAS blatantly misrepresenting sources, using false edit summaries and then playing coy about it and pretending they didn't know what the issue was) is not a personal attack and in fact, given how Wikipedia works, it is sometimes necessary to actually improve article content. Volunteer Marek 17:03, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
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- @LjL - why are you here? This has nothing to do with you. About a month ago we had a dispute on an unrelated article. You violated a 1RR restriction on it repeatedly and I pointed it out to you. You kept claiming "consensus" on the article where really the matter was still being discussed. You say I "defied consensus". Total baloney. I disagreed with *you*. And what eventually happened? I left the article alone and let you have your way because I decided it simply wasn't worth the effort. The current state of the article, AFAIK, reflects your point of view. How is that "deifying consensus"? Yet, you show up here a month later, trying to poison the well, and try to start up a little lynch mob. I cannot but conclude that you are just holding a grudge over... not sure what exactly. It's exactly this kind of petty behavior that makes Wikipedia a social wreck and such an extremely unpleasant place to contribute at.
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- Wasn't there a restriction on WP:AE reports (originated by User:Sandstein or User:Future Perfect at Sunrise IIRC) which forbid uninvolved parties from showing up to pursue grudges, clutter up the discussion and form little "peanut galleries" (their words, not mine) on these reports? (basically the same thing applies to User:Erlbaeko who's also here opportunistically to pursue grudges and as a way of getting an upper hand in an unrelated dispute (which is/was under mediation). God, I sometimes really hate Wikipedia.) Volunteer Marek 20:01, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
@Flashout1999 - It's ridiculous to say that I am "harassing" MyMoloboaccount when in fact they were the one who followed me to the article in the first place, because of a disagreement we had on another article. If anything, it's the opposite.
Likewise, your claim that the section heading "Can the POV get more ridicoulos?" (sic) is a "personal attack" but a section heading "POV in the lead" is not doesn't hold water. They both say the same thing, one is just in the form of a question and the other one is not, and neither "attacks" anyone. It specifically points to problems with content.
You are mistaking strongly worded criticism of article content and user behavior with "personal attacks". These are not the same thing. One more time - saying "you POV'd the article" is not not not not not a personal attack. Never has been, isn't now and probably (it's Wikipedia, so who knows?!) never will be. Disagreement are likewise not "personal attacks". Volunteer Marek 20:53, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
And actually let me add a little bit here to my response to Flashout1999. MyMoloboaccount repeatedly restored text which misrepresented sources and also made obviously highly POV changes with misleading edit summaries ("minor changes"). The proper response to my objections, which I made on talk, would have been to correct the misrepresentation of sources and if they felt something was missing, or if they felt that a particular piece of text was actually true (just not in that particular source) would have been to go out there and find new sources and faithfully paraphrase them. This is not MyMoloboaccount did. They just kept restoring the existing problems via blanket reverts. Yes, they did add some new sources but these were generally misrepresented just like the previous ones (the Crumb one in particular).
On the other hand, and to your credit, your response was more or less what I outlined above. You did go out and get new sources (the state department etc., although the History Channel one was a dud) and you appear to be open to discussing how to reword the text to make it NPOV.
This difference actually illustrates both the problem with MyMoloboaccount's approach and the proper approach. MMA, instead of doing the work necessary to find compromise and improve the article decided upon a wording which suited their POV first and then tried to pretend that sources supported it. Didn't really discuss the issues. When they didn't get their way, they came running here, to WP:AE, as a strategy of "winning" a dispute with allegations of "incivility" and lack of good faith (to quote User:Collect "The person who most frequently speaks about assuming good faith is least likely to assume (or act in) good faith.") That's often a very good sign that the person who's complaining about "incivility" is on the wrong end of the actual underlying *content* dispute. Because that's the only "argument" (and not a good one) they got. See also WP:CRUSH.
So, anyway, whatever the outcome of this report, and whatever else you say about me down in your section below, I do want to thank you in particular for taking the right approach to improving the article and if I was overly harsh in my criticism of you I apologize. Volunteer Marek 21:04, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Response to MyMoloboaccount's newest allegations
This is just diff padding and more of the same. At best these diffs just show that MyMoloboaccount has tried to use this tactic before, when confronted about the POV nature of their edits. Let's go through'em, shall we?
Ok, let's go through the diffs provided by MyMoloboaccount in the para beginning with "To prove that this is not a new thing and result of ongoing incivility..."
This diff provided by MMA is just a message he left on my talk page. What edit of mine is he responding to when he accuses me of "incivility"? This one. What I said is, quote: "crap source - the guy says that increases in poverty CAUSE increases in GDP". I called a ... crappy source, crap. If you think THAT is incivility, I really got nothing to say to you. It was a crap source and pointing that out is perfectly fine.
Then there is this diff, which is also MMA coming to my talk page and accusing me of, this time, "following him around". Ok, let me try to figure out what the hey he's talking about........ July 17....... Here at least is the full conversation (at bottom) which basically shows that this was MMA being passive-aggressive. Let's see, I said something (on my talk page) about that being an absurd accusation [81].
Hmmmmm. In July of 2014, the only article that both myself and MMA edited was Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. Now, Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 actually crashed on July 17 of 2014, it was of course all over the media and the article had been just created. There was a lot of activity on it. I made edits to it - and over the next several months I did a lot more work on the article than MMA who's only contribution was throw in some POV text right at the beginning. I can't remember who edited it first but who cares. Previously MMA had been following my edits around to the articles on:
- Unemployment in Poland (my first edits were right after the article was started on 6/3/14, MMA showed up shortly thereafter to edit war on 6/5/14),
- Balcerowicz Plan (I made edits in August of 2013, as well as 6/5/2014 - MMA showed up shortly therafter, same day, 8 hours later, to edit war) and
- Poverty in Poland (I made edits in March of 2013 - when MMA and I got into a disagreement on another article, MMA switched over to this one to undue my changes out of revenge)
This is why my response to MMA's comment about me supposedly "following him around" was... well, let me quote it in full, because it applies to the Warsaw Pact article now as much as it did to these other ones then: "I do sincerely hope that you have enough self awareness to realize how absurd you sound above."
MMA had spent a few months following me around - EXACTLY the same as with Warsaw Pact article - and then had the chutzpah to come to my talk page and accuse me of doing that.
If that doesn't convince you that MMA is a tendentious editor who tries to WP:GAME policies and win disputes which they cannot win based on sources by threatening, falsely accusing, and spuriously reporting people I don't know what will. And yes, just like he misrepresents sources in terms of content, he misrepresent editors he disagrees with in noticeboards such as this one. Volunteer Marek 23:47, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
- Oh, and I love that MMA is complaining about this edit of mine. Completely different topic area. Race and Intelligence. Which as anyone who's even dipped their toe in that topic area knows is overrun with sockpuppets and meatpuppets of blocked and topic banned users, who keep trying to use these articles to push racist garbage POV. In this particular instance an essentially brand new, single purpose, red-linked account changed the text so that descriptions of 19th century racist thinkers idea read as facts. Yes, the account was basically using Wikipedia to write "Black people are dumber than white people" (instead of "Racists *believe* that black people..."). Of course it was dressed up, the SPA account was perfectly "civil", there was some sources tacked on to it to make it look legit and of course the response was "discuss on talk!!!". But at the end of the day it was just racist garbage. I am not going to apologize for that edit nor am I going to apologize for that edit summary (in fact, I toned it down from what I originally wrote because I had a sneaky suspicion someone would try to use it against me). Again, this just shows that MMA has a very Machavallian attitude to editing Wikipedia where they're willing to use ANYTHING to win a content dispute.
- (Btw, since I made that revert, I've had five different users thank me for it, including User:Maunus, who's probably the most veteran of the veteran editors in that topic area, as well as User:Caballero1967 [82]) Volunteer Marek 00:00, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Caballero's Comments
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- My comments here are in relation to my thanks to User:Volunteer Marek's editing work here. The article is a subject intimately familiar to me since I have taught it in graduate courses for four years already, and have published about it. Before User:Volunteer Marek intervened today I had written about my concerns with the ideological changes taking place in the article's Talk Page. And User:Volunteer Marek was bold, yes, but direct and correct in his manners. When the user making the disruptive changes asked him to edit the changes rather than blank them in full, Marek's response was right and to the point: there is nothing unbaised and nothing to edit. So, it may be that Marek's is a bold editor, but his work (up to what I have seen), is not easily matched. Caballero/Historiador (talk) 00:27, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
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Statement by Erlbaeko
Note that the same pattern of personal attacks and incivility can be seen in other articles/topics. See e.g. Talk:Ghouta_chemical_attack/Archive_6#same_ol.27_POV_pushing_which_just_won.27t_stop. Also note that I notified him about Syrian Civil War sanctions on 27 August 2015, ref. diff. Here Volunteer Marek attacks an editor saying "Will you please stop lying so blatantly?" I would not have had a problem with that if it was a lie, but it is not. I checked the statement and it's only slightly inaccurate. I replied here. I see no justification for that attack, and no apology was ever given. Erlbaeko (talk) 11:37, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- Also note that Volunteer Marek attacked the new editor on the article here by calling him a "brand new throw away accounts to help out in the edit war", and here by insinuating sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry (without any convincing evidence). The editor has explained that he is a Wikipedia veteran here and documnets that he started editing 7 and a half years ago here. Erlbaeko (talk) 11:57, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
- Update: To clarify a bit. I don't see the attacks itself as a big problem. We all make mistakes from time to time and I don't care to much about an attack or two or some rough language. The problem is the pattern of lesser personal attacks that continues throughout a discussion despite warnings (as in the discussion I linked to above). It is when that pattern is used to disrupt progress toward improving an article it became a problem, and that problem is called disruptive editing. It is like he is living after the Paul Krugman citation on his user page: "As the old lawyer’s line says, if the facts are on your side, pound the facts; if the law is on your side, pound the law; if neither are on your side, pound the table. I’d add: and demand “civility.”. I am afraid he will continue to "pound the table and demand civility" if the behavior is allowed to continue. Erlbaeko (talk) 13:20, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
@Arthur Rubin: Do we want to continue? I don't know, but I do. I don't see no justification for your 1 week block for "actions on Warsaw Pact, commented on at WP:AE". Ref. Block log. Here you said it was due to "discretionary sanctions for Eastern Europe". What excatly did you block him for? Erlbaeko (talk) 16:20, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by LjL
I have also been at my wits' end with this editor, but eventually I decided to do nothing about it. But given that finally I'm not the only one wanting to complain, I'll add diffs for things that had seemed to show WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF issues, with my emphasis on them (but honestly, other behaviors from this editor were more of a burden to me, yet it's trickier to put them together to clarify the situation):
- Can you stop being dishonest? There is NO "overwhelming consensus" as you claim above. You're making shit up. There is NO "clear consensus" as you claim above. You're making shit up. [83]
- For fuck's sake, this is suppose to be an article about a terrorist attack IN FRANCE, which killed more than a hundred people IN FRANCE in a greatest tragedy since WWII. It is NOT about Poland's politician's hang ups about refugees from Syria. It is NOT about your own personal hangs up about refugees from Syria. How about we keep the article on topic that it's actually suppose to be about rather than go off on POV tangents to pursue personal political agendas? [84]
- LjL, MyMolobboaccount, EVEN IF you guys were right about previous consensus - which you're not, you're making shit up - my last edition concerned an official statement [...] MyMoloboaccount shows up and removes it. I undo. LjL jumps in to edit war just because. And then you claim consensus for that too. Please stop being ridiculous. [85]
Note that the "consensus" the editor challenges in the above quotations was repeatedly established, and summarized here, and he was virtually the only editor disrupting it. LjL (talk) 14:38, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- I do, like Kingsindian, also wonder what exactly MyMoloboaccount, the OP, was now blocked for (without notifying this discussion, even though he was purportedly blocked because of it), since neither the block log nor the talk page notifications seem to make it very clear what edits caused the block (I do not see obvious edit warring in the involved page's history). I think it would be appropriate at this point if the blocking admin, Arthur Rubin, made a statement here. LjL (talk) 15:12, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
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- @Arthur Rubin: thanks for your statement. I am concerned that you seem to be looking at the specifics of the content dispute rather than administrative issues. I don't really feel qualified to comment about Warsaw Pact specifics, but if I were an administrator I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable blocking on such content disputes... especially while the blocked user has an outstanding arbitration enforcement request against the other party, and that is a very administrative issue where any civility issues with Volunteer Marek can be gauged (but you're choosing to stay away from that administrative concern). All I really know is that Volunteer Marek has defied consensus in not-very-civil manners before, and so far, the complaining party has been blocked instead. I think Spartaz or any administrator looking at this ought to keep that in mind. LjL (talk) 16:08, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Flushout1999
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- I can confirm the bad behavior from Volunteer Marek. However I believe this talk page [86] speaks by itself. He managed now to make it a total mess creating new sections not related to the content which should be present in the main article, but just creating them in order to attack the other users along his personal opinions. Also he avoids persistently to discuss reliable sources' content which are not according to his personal beliefs, starting to apply denigratory labels, being uncivil and keeping to say that there is a "misrepresentation" as an excuse to revert entire paragraphs, while never providing links nor going into details (like making at least some citation) in despise of the most common editing discussions rules, as the ones reported here [87]. -- Flushout1999 (talk) 16:18, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
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- Just to be clear: In my opinion that particular MyMoloboaccount's edit on the lead was not good at all, but not that bad to justify VM reaction which as been disruptive at least. This could have been solved in a very easy way as the new edit [88] from Kingsindian shows.
- VM attitude in the talk page as been rather uncivil, rude and degrading the talk to a WP:BATTLEGROUND creating messy new sections with titles aimed only at attacking MyMoloboaccount personally. ("Can the POV get more ridicoulos?" should have been titled something like "POV in the lead" for example).
- In my opinion his behavior could qualify also as repeated offensive behavior aimed to target a specific person (MyMoloboaccount) with the purpose to make him feel threatened or intimidated (which however did not happen).
- Now that other users like MastCell are justifying these kind of personal attacks, incivility and offensive behaviors towards the other editors, only because one just don't like what he perceives as a different point of view from his, this is really disappointing to me and this is for sure the most undesiderable outcome here in wikipedia, that everyone starts to feel excused when treating the others in a belittling and insulting way only because they have different point of views, while instead is very easy to discuss civilly, achieve neutrality in the article and solve issues if one just wants to.
- Also I don't understand MyMoloboaccount block, he made a single bad edit (perhaps misunderstood), we are now going to block people only because of a single bad edit? -- Flushout1999 (talk) 20:30, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
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- @Volunteer Marek I'm sorry Marek but here I am going to disagree with you. First: disagreements are ok, to discuss them incivilly and just in order to intimidate the others is not. Second: who is the one that is really following the other? For example, my first edit in the Warsaw Pact is at 23:08, 29 July 2013 [89], yours is at 21 October 2015 [90] and you came only to revert my old edits [91] while in the same moment you deleted all of my old edits in The Harvest of Sorrow [92] while discussing there with me. As the two articles are totally unrelated, this means you took a look to my contribs and then you engaged in a ravaged deletion of my past edits you disliked (and you even used the excuse of "suspect copyvio" in the Warsaw Pact article. My source was not an english book, so I could not copy anything, in that case I had rewritten all in my words). I tell you, I perceive (and I perceived) this not only as a form of WP:HARASSMENT but also as WP:WIKIHOUNDING made towards me.
- But I'm glad you now realized we could perfectly discuss in a civil way and understand each other, we could have it done that also in that occasion. I believe that if we all take in consideration each other thoughts and we respect each other than a solution is always available. For example see this: Wikipedia:Writing for the opponent, perhaps me too I am still not able to do that, but probably Wikipedia is all about this. -- Flushout1999 (talk) 22:09, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
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Statement by Kingsindian
This is a transparent attempt to win a content dispute using this board. All three descriptions by MyMoloboaccount are seriously misleading. VM's conduct on the talk page is not ideal, but MyMoloboaccount's conduct is as bad or worse, which directly led to VM's conduct.
The major diff is here. By no stretch of imagination can this be called "minor changes", as stated in the edit summary. This alone should raise doubts about MyMoloboaccount's conduct.
Let me first point out the kernel of the matter. The Warsaw Pact was in part a reaction to NATO. That is not all that it was: historical events rarely have a single cause or motivation. There were plenty of nefarious motives as well. The writing on this issue needs to be nuanced. The Laurien Crump source is accepted by all sides as a good source, and it needs to be presented carefully.
Let's now go through the diffs:
- The first diff is a description of the article. Anyone who has worked in any contentious area on Wikipedia knows that many articles are POV crap. Whether or not that is correct in this instance, this is hardly an offence.
- The second diff, contrary to MyMoloboaccount's account, "instead of discussing the issue...", indeed discusses the issue, with some rather minor incivility. The edit made by MyMoloboaccount was indeed atrocious.
- In the third diff, the problem is that text which was disputed earlier, was reintroduced with a misleading edit summary by MyMoloboaccount. The actual issue, minus all the heat, is that a nuanced version of the text can be written which is supported by the sources.
In such topics, people have their own POV. It is unavoidable. People have to work together in spite of this.
By the way, why is MyMoloboaccount blocked? The block log says something about AE, which I can't fathom. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 12:03, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
- I am afraid Arthur Rubin crucially misreads the edit made by MyMoloboaccount. The statement does not say that the purpose of the Warsaw Pact was to protect the internal security, but that the major military engagements were to protect internal security, which is a rather different thing. The stated purpose of something need not coincide with the actual use of the thing.
- Also, the term "internal security" often refers to the security of the regime, rather than security of the population. This is the way in which internal security is used routinely in political literature. See this, this and this for examples.
- That said, the edit made by MyMoloboaccount was very POV and certainly not "minor" (again a misleading edit summary). There is also a larger point. Are we now blocking people based on POV pushing? I would then suggest that a large portion of the editors in Israel-Palestine or Eastern-Europe area should be blocked then. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 20:10, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
- My own viewpoint is that it was not OK to block MyMoloboaccount based on one edit, which the blocker misread anyway. POV-pushers are ubiquitous in any contentious area on Wikipedia. If there is a pattern of misbehaviour by MMA then it should be presented before acting like this. Regarding conduct by all parties, my own viewpoint is: I see plenty of discussion of actual content on the talk page, mixed with the odd incivil comment. The latter is not ideal, but nobody behaves like a saint all the time. I don't see anything too bad. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 21:13, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Arthur Rubin
I cannot see this edit by MyMoloboaccount as being in good faith; the claim that the Warsaw Pact was intended to support internal security of the nations involved is contrary to fact and to the wording of the Pact. The pact was written as to protect external security of the nations, and reliable sources suggest the secondary reason was to protect the Soviet Union against threats from the other signatories. (I'm not sure the references to West Germany are sourced. I don't want to get involved in editing the article.) The statement must be considered Soviet propaganda, and propaganda (except as opinion) is not permitted on Wikipedia.
I am not commenting on Volunteer Marek's alleged incivility. However, if addition of propaganda is considered WP:vandalism, VM should not be cited for edit warring, as removal of vandalism is a permitted exception. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:06, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
- If I were to investigate all of MyMoloboaccount's diffs, I would probably suggest a topic ban from (at least) Warsaw pact, and all actions taken by the Soviet Union under the Pact. Do we want to continue? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:14, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by MastCell
@Spartaz: For what it's worth, Marek is right. Now, I would probably use different language: I would say that Flushout1999 (and Mymoloboaccount) are tendentious editors who are systematically and somewhat dishonestly degrading the quality of our article on the Warsaw Pact in service of their political agendas. Marek would say that they're turning the article into an even bigger pile of POV crap than it already was. Both of those are true statements.
I suppose the proper response to this complaint comes down to a philosophical question: which is the bigger threat to Wikipedia as a serious, reputable reference work? Dishonest, agenda-driven obsessives, or people who lose patience with them? My personal view is probably evident from my framing of the question. MastCell Talk 06:50, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Maunus)
Editors should assume good faith - untill that becomes impossible. Likewise, editors should use civil and courteous language - but should not be excessively punished when their patience is put to the test by long-term blatant, tendentious editing. (Note that I don't know Mymoloboaccounts editing patterns, but refer to the POV pushing that VolunteerMarek reverted at R&I)·maunus · snunɐɯ· 22:39, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Volunteer_Marek
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I'd like to hear any justification/explanation Volunteer Marek can offer for those diffs. At first look they appear to be clear personal attacks and incivility and breaches of Cannanecc's warning. Spartaz Humbug! 09:04, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- My comment appears to have crossed with the statements.
- Diff #1 - Its a more than a bit disingenuous to say you were describing the article when your edit summary is clearly aimed at MyMoloboaccount. This looks like a clear violation.
- Diff #2 - Gimme a fucking break. Can you at least pretend that you're trying to be neutral here? Clearly personalising a discussion and at the very least this skirts the civility policy - depending on how tolerant you are of swearing. To me, its too strongly worded and sweary.
- Diff #3 - Nothing actionable here IMO.
- The rest of VMs statement is attempting to tar MyMoloboaccount rather than addressing his own behaviour and has been ignored. My judgement is that this actionable and that a block and TB are appropriate. I'd suggest 24hours and a 1 month TB from eastern European areas. Other options are of course available.... Spartaz Humbug! 09:16, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- Like MastCell, I might have used different words than VM, but I'm against sanctioning editors for speaking impatiently to those who try to degrade content, or for using swear words. Defending tendentiousness by combing the opponent's posts for bad words is one of the oldest tricks on Wikipedia, and I'd like to see a boomerang here. Bishonen | talk 21:26, 27 December 2015 (UTC).
- My general take on this situation parallels Bishonen's, and I don't see any value to either blocking or topic-banning Volunteer Marek, although despite how strongly he feels, I do think it would be better if he toned down some of the language, in order to avoid distracting people from the merits of his positions. On the other hand, while I understand why Bishonen makes her "boomerang" suggestion, I suppose an AE report that another admin has found merit to can't be categorized as frivolous on its face. So subject to others' input, I would close with no action at this time. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:14, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
930310
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning 930310
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Legacypac (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 11:59, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- 930310 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity#Motion:_Longevity_.28August_2015.29 :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [93] Voting Keep on an effort to consolidate, arguing that it is easier to compare info on separate pages
- [94] Voting against Wikipedia policy on RS and for the GRG being exclusive "verified" source.
- Date "the anti-supercentenarian crew AfD-nominated.." (us vs them mentality)
- [95] "Updated article due to repeated destruction of article by User:Commanderlinx"
- [96] Updated article due to repeated destruction of article by Commanderlinx
- [97] Undid revision 692532327 by CommanderLinx (talk)Undid vandalism
- [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Margaret_Ann_Neve&diff=prev&oldid=692526144 (Undid revision 692422449 by CommanderLinx (talk)Undoing destruction)
- [98] (Undid revision 692337985 by Legacypac (talk)Destructive edit undone)
- [99] This is the most ridiculous crap I have ever heard. (on an SPI)
- [100] It's more like some POV-Pushers have been more actively caballing and canvassing to scare off neutral, third-party input. This particular comment by you, EEng, reflects a long-standing pattern of edit-warring and battle-grounding on this subject. 930310 (talk) 23:02, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- [101] starts ANi thread against a "group" of editors and gets no sympathy. Says "I propose that a topic ban regarding longevity related articles is given to both of them since they are obviously only out to destruct articles about longevity and show clear disrespect for the deceased by saying things such as the ones mentioned above."
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Participated in the ArbComm case relevant here [102]
- Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on [103] on talk page in Aug 2015
- Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on [104].
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Editor is a long term, single purpose account only editing in the Longevity area. They disrespect other upstanding editors as seen in the diffs and edit summaries. They tried to have 2 to 5 editors topic banned at once in ANi and the idea of boomarang was raised. The off Wiki canvassing and spas continue to be a major problem in this topic, but at least we can use these discretionary sanctions to topic ban POV pushing editors like this one that pretty consistently argue against Wikipedia policy. Regularly specifically names and agrees with recently topic banned editor Ollie231213 [105] and engages in the the same abuse toward policy. Thank-you for your consideration of this report. 11:59, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
- Response to Alansohn's allegations
- As an editor that enjoys cleanup (including Neelix, pageants, and recently longevity) and editing ISIL (also a DS area), I've attracted more then my fair share of attacks at ANi, 3RR and even a failed effort to brand in SPi by POV pushers and edit warriors. I don't maintain a tombstone list, and am not always successful in XfD, 3RR reports etc but there have been thousands of deletes/redirect effected based on my nominations. I continue to edit with a clean record while people that see me as an opponent end up blocked, topic banned, etc. I've also never been interested in off wiki coordination. Perhaps a case against Alansohn should be prepared next for he also engages in the same agenda pushing behavior as Ollie and 930310 Legacypac (talk) 20:57, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
Canvassing: One editor below was sent here to comment by a recently Longevity topic banned editor [106] while another is discussing this case with the same topic banned editor [107] in evident violation of that editor's topic ban. Legacypac (talk) 00:23, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [108]
Discussion concerning 930310
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by 930310
- Statement 1 Hardly surprising that this user goes on an attack towards me as well. There are so many instances of you having done this because of users you don't like so I won't even bother with making any comments to protect myself towards this nonsense. I have been a user on Wikipedia for almost ten years, and if people check my history I did not register or was a SPA back then, which I am not now either. So how can I be nominated for being such? I post or edit where I feel like and currently longevity related articles are my main interest. Is there anything wrong with having interests? 930310 (talk) 12:50, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
- Statement 2 Regarding some of the examples used as evidence against me:
- 1. Disagreeing with another user is certainly not against Wikipeda policy, and in fact, if we look at a number of LegacyPac's "efforts", he is receiving widespread opposition.
- 2. It's actually LegacyPac who is violating Wikipedia policy by not paying any attention to WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE, WP:VALID, and WP:WP:BESTSOURCES. To quote from the latter: "Good and unbiased research, based upon the best and most reputable authoritative sources available, helps prevent NPOV disagreements." It's quite clear from looking at other reliable sources that the GRG is considered an authority on the subject. Arguing that Wikipedia should reflect this is ABSOLUTELY NOT a violation of policy. Read this, it explains the situation perfectly.
- 3. Actually, loads of other users have openly admitted that this is a "them Vs us" situation. See here.
- 4. All I did there was improve an article.
- 5. Ditto.
- 6. I apologize for this. One shouldn't call policy-based edits "vandalism".
- 7. Ditto.
- 8. In this instance my actions were justified since LegacyPac removed sourced information because he disagreed with what was written in the source. A clear violation of WP:OriginalResearch.
- 9. I could have been more tactful here. The argument for suggesting I was a sockpuppet was however very weak.
- 10. The anti-GRG editors (as mentioned above) have made a clear and concerted effort to "prune" longevity articles (see here), and in a number of cases, they have received widespread opposition from uninvolved editors (here, here, here, here, here, and here.
- 11. A number of uninvolved editors have expressed frustration at the actions of the anti-longevity editors.
- 930310 (talk) 13:42, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
- Comment Being a SPA, which I do not consider myself to be, is not against Wiki-policy. The reason as to why I am editing longevity-related articles is because I am interested in them. I have explained clearly why I believe that I am acting in line with policy. What specifically have I done that is in violation of policy? 930310 (talk) 19:23, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by EEng
The user's contribution history practically defines "SPA". [109] [110]. Not visible via those links is fact that his/her userpage and sandbox were for years two of the many WP:FAKEARTICLE/WP:NOTWEBHOST longevity lists that have finally purged: Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:930310 Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:930310/sandbox. EEng (talk) 13:10, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
It's worth remembering this Arbcom finding from February 2011:
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity#WikiProject_World.27s_Oldest_People_urged: WikiProject World's Oldest People is urged to seek experienced Wikipedia editors who will act as mentors to the project and assist members in improving their editing and their understanding of Wikipedia policies and community norms.
That didn't happen, which is why the mess continues. SPAs' lack of experience in the wider project continues to plague discussions. EEng (talk) 02:07, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Alansohn
These allegations regarding 930310 -- together with the more disturbing result above regarding User:Ollie231213 -- are clear examples of what comes off as a rather clear tag team mentality by both User:EEng and User:Legacypac. The instances cited here of "edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it" are examples of Orwellian thought crimes. Just take the first two examples:
- Voting Keep on an effort to consolidate, arguing that it is easier to compare info on separate pages
- Voting against Wikipedia policy on RS and for the GRG being exclusive "verified" source.
Both of these are examples of situations where 930310 challenged one of the mass of repeated AfD nominations by EEng / Legacypac, cited relevant Wikipedia policy and now have this used as "evidence" against them. I can't even figure out how either of these can be viewed as violations of policy under even the most strained view of Longevity-related policy violations. These are quintessentially appropriate votes in each case.
The repeated SPA allegations from EEng appear to be intended as a provocation, in the same manner as what was done to Ollie231213.
Any objection to boomerang nominations for EEng and Legacypac? Alansohn (talk) 19:13, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
@JzG - In describing this as "a clear case of SPA vs. Wikipedia" you have prejudged the matter without justification. The diffs offered are run-of-the-mill examples of rather ordinary back and forth discussions, at worst. In no example is any of the required policy violation offered, nor is any consideration given to the rather belligerent harassment and provocation by both EEng and Legacypac. If you're proposing a topic ban of any length, offer the community some specific example of what the basis is for this use of administrative authority. On the contrary, a look at the history stats for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Australian supercentenarians shows the tag team of EEng and Legacypac with 42 of the 97 edits -- more than 43% of all edits to the AfD -- where edits by EEng and Legacypac include:
- "No. Are you paid to make nonsense posts intentionally misinterpreting common English words?" by EEng
- A SPA tag bomb by Legacypac that included several experienced editors
And this is just a taste of what's to come. The problem here is the tag team. A permanent topic ban on LegacyPac and EEng will solve 99% of the battleground mentality, baiting and provocations taking place at Longevity-related articles. Alansohn (talk) 21:47, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by 7&6=thirteen
I concur entirely with Alansohn and his reasoning. Eeng and Legacypac have incessantly waged a war of attrition on longevity-related articles. It is the WP:PROD of the day. And Legacypac at least got nasty when others try to derail their express train. So much so that even Eeng told him to cool his jets. Topic banning ought to be last resort. I for one have basically avoided the topic, not for lack of interest, as I am afraid of affronting The Red Queen, as we have "discretionary sanctions" with little or no warning or guidance as to what is expected. You can shut off all dissent. Or if you are applying sanctions you should do it even-handedly, whatever standard it is that you are applying 7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:27, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by JaconaFrere
Legacypac has been on a tear at AfD, belittling other editors who vote keep on any longevity or pageant articles while removing other editors fairly passive statements as personal attacks, and accusing experienced editors such as 7&6=thirteen single-purpose editors because they opposed their position on an afd. A boomerang for Legacypac is in my opinion long overdue. Jacona (talk) 02:09, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by David in DC
930310 offers this thread for the proposition that there's something wrong with efforts to prune the longevity walled garden. But the thread proves something quite different. I started the thread on the WOP wikiproject page in an effort to get the logjam resolved by cooperation and consensus. Please review the thread carefully. The chirping of crickets after my initial posting and subsequent plea for dialogue is telling. David in DC (talk) 19:52, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Ricky81682
One has to ignore the greater dispute here and focus on the actual editors involved. I don't particularly find Legacypac and EEng's prods and AFD campaign entirely perfect but I think the overall consensus following each one of their listings is at least some level of support for their policies. I suggest someone filing separate AE requests on them if they find it prudent. As to 930310, we tend to disagree, but I think his/her conduct here is sufficient for a limited topic ban to see if the editor can work outside of this area at the moment. 930310's comment at the SPI, note that the SPI was originally titled Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/930310 and only later moved when 930310 was found unrelated to the other editors, a proposal that I supported. While not perfectly civil, the comment would be something I would expect from anyone tagged with an SPI report basically naming everyone who voted keep on a single AFD discussion. 930310's comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kathleen Snavely (2nd nomination) was in part a procedural speedy keep based on the month-prior closure of the same AFD. That isn't necessarily objectionable to me, as I can imagine a number of other editors with the same mindset just based on the timing of the AFDs. However, the ANI complaint (which admittedly names me as well) is about the same issues that permeate this entire AE request, namely the proposals to prod and take pages repeatedly to AFD. The fact that 930310 is so emotionally tied to these articles that listing their biographies for deletion (or discussing the concept) is considered "disrespectful" makes it difficult if not impossible to have any objective discussions about them. I suspect we'll have more AE disputes as the topic ban discussions can go here rather than at ANI which is probably a bit better. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:19, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
@Alansohn: I don't think AE works for boomerang nominations as JzG notes below. If you want to propose sanctions requests against the nominator and others, new sections should be started. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:11, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Result concerning 930310
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- This is a clear case of SPA vs. Wikipedia. Regardless of any issues with the filing party (which should be addressed via a separate request if people feel so strongly about it), the involvement of SPAs has been highlighted as a specific issue with the walled garden of articles around longevity. A topic ban for 930310 is entirely in line with policy and the arbitration finding. I propose a TB with appeal allowed after 3 months if 930310 makes significant contributions outside of the contended topic area. Guy (Help!) 13:51, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Winkelvi
Nothing left to do here. T. Canens (talk) 20:47, 26 December 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by WinkelviWithdrawing this request since the ban has now been withdrawn by the filing administrator -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 23:17, 26 December 2015 (UTC) No discussion from sanctioning administrator, no questions asked, no AGF, no response to my follow-up comments; I feel the admin qualifies as involved; sanction is for a BLP and related topics, however, complaint from admin is not about the article but discussions with the article subject as an editor; I believe the issue can be solved without a sanction. Statement:
Statement by BishonenRick Alan Ross has learned during his time on Wikipedia to use the proper channels to express concerns about his bio, and seems quite resilient to reasoned criticism. But I can only imagine how unpleasant it must be to experience the treatment W has been meting out to him, and after several bootless warnings I felt compelled to step in. Having a Wikipedia article about oneself at all is surely a dubious pleasure, a fortiori for people who are at all controversial, and we ought to be careful not to make it nastier than it has to be. I have responded here on Winkelvi's page, in detail and with diffs, to several of the claims Winkelvi makes above, for instance the claim that he has only been talking about "RAR the editor, not the article subject". W may feel that, or remember it like that, but it's not how it has come across. It's only a small topic ban — from one bio — which I should think will make little practical difference to W's editing, as he has lots of other interests on Wikipedia. But presumably that's not what upsets him; it's that he feels it's a stigma ("a black mark"). I can certainly sympathize with that, and it's a common feeling about any sanction. Winkelvi, would you rather make an informal undertaking from yourself to give RAR a wide berth — to avoid referring to him at all? I think that's the form the "self-monitoring" you suggest ought to take. It shouldn't be something like "I'll be nicer to RAR", IMO, because you obviously think you already are being sufficiently nice to him, and you have been unresponsive and often downright angry when several editors have urged you to act and talk differently. I'd be quite happy to rescind the ban if you undertake to leave RAR alone on your own responsibility. (It's enough if you say it here; no need for anything more formal than that.) Indeed, I can remove the ban from the discretionary sanctions log, if you like. It's not a mysterious technical thing like the block log, but merely a list that anybody can edit. It may be verboten to remove a listing, but I wouldn't mind trying and seeing what happens. Please think about it. Bishonen | talk 17:00, 26 December 2015 (UTC).
Statement by involved Cullen328On April 9, 2009, the Wikimedia Foundation passed a resolution calling on all volunteers at WMF projects to treat "any person who has a complaint about how they are described in our projects with patience, kindness, and respect". As Bishonen has shown, Winkelvi has adopted a consistently belligerent and confrontational attitude toward BLP subject Rick Allen Ross, who has had legitimate concerns about our biography of him. Winkelvi has persisted despite several warnings by other editors. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:19, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by marginally involved CollectI first saw the BLP at the BLP/N noticeboard - and I sought to depuff what appeared to be improper puffery, to word material in a neutral manner, and to try to make the negative material conform with WP:BLP. [113] and the like. WV repeatedly added [114] a "COI" tag to the BLP long after RAR clearly had ceased any edits on the BLP. While it is clear that RAR does call it "my" BLP, it is a matter of common sense that he was referring to the BLP about himself, and not asserting any editorial ownership of the BLP. WV, alas, seems to regard RAR as some sort of enemy of the state ("He is trying to sanitize the article on him. This has been pointed out numerous times by several editors. Why it isn't obvious to some is a puzzle, indeed." and "Ross isn't a contributor. He's the subject of an article he's trying to control" indicate a teensy bit of adversarial view). Where a person takes an adversarial view about a person who is the subject of a BLP, it is likely wise for the community or an impartial admin to impose restrictions on them. Collect (talk) 14:27, 26 December 2015 (UTC) Statement by largely uninvolved BlackmaneThis was the most recent ANI thread concerning Winkelvi and RAR. In summary, WV sought to have RAR topic banned from the article but observations from commenting editors indicated that RAR was in fact compliant with the various relevant policies. A topic ban was proposed by another editor but was soundly rejected. A block of RAR was also proposed but also soundly rejected. WV's behaviour in the thread descended quite rapidly until Drmies closed it with no action. It wasn't pretty, so a topic ban from the RAR article was a fairly light sanction all in all. Blackmane (talk) 14:34, 26 December 2015 (UTC) Statement by uninvolved FigureofnineI became aware of this situation because I watchlist Winkelvi's user talk page. We are emphatically not wikifriends, and I have found his behavior problematic in the past. However, in this instance, while I am not endorsing his conduct in this matter, I feel that there is an important principle here that may be overlooked. My reading of the discussions is that Winkelvi has a problem with Ross as an editor, not as the subject of this article. Now, perhaps I have overlooked something to contradict this impression, but that is my observation. I do not believe that Ross has necessarily done anything wrong either. Since seeing this issue arise I have gone to the article talk page and interacted with him. He seems reasonable. He is the subject of an article and understandably is sensitive and concerned about it. Indeed, I found that there was one inaccurate rendition of a source, which I corrected at his request. However, I urge all admins involved to carefully distinguish between whether Winkelvi has behaved in an untoward fashion toward the subject as the subject, or as an editor. We run into these kinds of situations sometimes in COI situations and I think that distinction is important. I think that such Tbans should only be applied when is antagonism to the subject as the subject, not because the editor feels that the subject is behaving poorly as an editor. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 15:26, 26 December 2015 (UTC) Just to be crystal clear: I am not endorsing Winkelvi's actions. What I am suggesting is that his actions be viewed as directed toward a fellow editor, not toward the subject. If penalties are warranted (I am agnostic on that), they should be dealt with as offenses against a fellow editor. I have my own neutrality concerns regarding the overall approach of the article, and have started a discussion on that point. The talk page discussion has tended to get stuck in micro-issues. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 16:02, 26 December 2015 (UTC) Statement by Francis SchonkenSupporting Bishonen's action without further ado. I'm involved (although usually quickly bored with the topic area, as I explained elsewhere before). I think what R. A. Ross (that is the subject of the article, and the talk page editor) needs is a somewhat more impartial introduction to how Wikipedia works, overcoming former obstacles which after ten years of anon and other frictions seem well underway to become more manageable. Winkelvi's efforts are largely outside that dynamic, rather preferring to send the subject on a wild goose chase than actually address issues the Wikipedia way. --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:57, 26 December 2015 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by WinkelviI'm not sure what Winkelvi understands by "No discussion from sanctioning administrator, no questions asked, no AGF, no response to my follow-up comments", but you only have to look at his talkpage to see the response from 'Shonen (permalink), made over two hours before he made that accusation here. In her response, she points out her two previous warnings on 24 November, (first, second) that Winklevi reverted as "b.s.", and her third warning on December 22. She also patiently explains why she is not INVOLVED, and draws his attention to multiple other editors who have complained about his actions, and his negative reactions to each. When talking does not convince an editor that he needs to step away from a topic, then a topic ban is the next logical step. Without any understanding from Winkelvi that he needs to revise how he is interacting with others, any lifting of the topic ban would be counter-productive and we'd just be back here in another few weeks. --RexxS (talk) 14:26, 26 December 2015 (UTC) Result of the appeal by Winkelvi
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HughD
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning HughD
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Springee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 01:30, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- HughD (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- [[115]] :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Dec 21st HughD was told on December 11th by {U:Ricky81682} that the Watchdog.org topic was part of his topic ban. For violating that ban his Tea Party, broadly construed topic ban was expanded to all US conservative politics 2009 and later. The WP:TBAN guidelines state that a topic ban covers "a topic ban covers all pages (not only articles) broadly related to the topic, as well as the parts of other pages that are related to the topic." Asking for an RfC that HughD created on the page that resulted in his expanded topic block looks like discussing the banned topic.
- Dec 23 Citizens United vs FEC is a topic that falls within conservative politics. The article makes mention of conservative groups on a number of occasions including the group "Citizens United". The case was brought before the USSC in 2009 and decided in 2010. Thus the date of the case is within the topic ban. The subject is conservative politics.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- Aug 28 HughD topic-banned from "any articles involving the Tea Party movement broadly, including but not limited to anything at all related to Americans for Prosperity, Koch Industries, the Koch brothers, for one year."
- Oct 11 After AE request, HughD warned that "further violations of the TBAN will likely result in a block (even if just minor)."
- Oct 29 HughD blocked for one week "following editing on Franklin Center for Government and Public Integrity." An appeal of this block was declined at AE [116].
- Dec 11 HughD informed that the TBAN was expanded to all US conservative politics 2009 and later, broadly construed.
- [117] WP:BLUDGEON admin Ricky81682 regarding limits and justification of TBAN.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Editor's sanctions were expanded less than 2 weeks back.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
[[118]]
Discussion concerning HughD
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by HughD
Thank you to my good colleagues Guy and Ed for your comments. Of course I would welcome an opportunity to apologize for and strike any edit which a consensus of my colleagues agree is a topic ban violation.
- "Regarding the first diff: he is asking for someone to close an RfC about watchdog.org that he himself opened." I started an RfC at Watchdog.org 8 December, before the topic ban expansion, but I did not request a close. Prior to the RfC, three threads of preliminary talk page discussion were started by colleagues informally collaborating on improving the coverage and neutrality of article Watchdog.org, threads representing successive refinement of the content eventually proposed by the RfC. On 7 December, prior to the RfC, involved editor Paid Editor 009o9 requested a formal closure of these three threads that clearly did not need closure let alone formal closure. As per WP:CLOSE, "Many informal discussions do not need closing." Significantly, Paid Editor 009o9 failed to notify of the request for closure at article talk. 20 December I noticed the unusual request for closure among the backlog at WP:ANRFC, and commented in hopes of an WP:ANRFC patroller archiving the request for closure and helping reducing the backlog. In summary, the record is clear that I did not request a closure of an RfC (and neither did Paid Editor 009o9).
I see the request for closure is still there at WP:ANRFC, sigh, so my effort was in vain.I apologize to the community I did not anticipate my good faith attempt to help clear a spurious request from our WP:ANRFC backlog might be considered a topic ban violation. I would be more than happy to strike my comment there, particularly if someone would be so kind as to come behind me and click archive the ill-advised request for closure. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 00:13, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
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- 29 December the pointed, disruptive request for close was archived without action with a comment "per Hugh's comment above these weren't RFC's. There appears to be no reason to apply closes." Hugh (talk) 17:45, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- I understand well Citizens United (organization) is in scope, but I did not edit it; not so obvious to me is that a US Supreme Court case, Citizens United v. FEC is in scope, and even less obvious to me is that a WP:MOS issue with an abbreviation in an article title is in scope. I did not edit Citizens United v. FEC article space; I weighed in to an ongoing article talk discussion regarding an issue of style in favor of expanding the abbreviation in the title of the article from FCC to Federal Communications Commission for the benefit of our readers. I believe in good faith that this comment is specifically authorized by the bullet 4 of WP:TBAN, which empowers conscientious topic banned editors to continue to contribute to our project, including to those parts of articles which are not within scope. The style issue of whether or not to disambiguate FCC in the title of the article cannot be considered by reasonable persons to be directly related to American conservative politics. If a consensus of my colleagues agree I am mistaken, I will gladly apologize to the community and strike through. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 00:13, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Thank you to my good colleague Fyddlestix for their prodigious accounting below, it means a lot to me, thank you for your time. At this time I would add just one diff: an administrator of our project asking the complainant to cease his harassment 18 October 2015; my preference would be a separate filing focused on complainant's harassment. Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 06:15, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by JzG
There's no love lost between me and HughD, but I fail to see anything actionable in the diffs provided. Guy (Help!) 01:41, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Ricky81682
While the request to close the RFC on a violating page is a violation to me, I'll agree with EdJohnston that striking the comment is sufficient. Citizens United is one of the key decisions that relate to Tea party politics and to conservative politics 2009 onward, so I agree that it's also a significant violation and hopefully striking the comment will be sufficient too. As to point 5 under the previous sanctions, those types of antics are typical for HughD in response to sanctions and while annoying personally and while I would just prefer HughD bringing his/her concerns here, the refusal to do so is not a violation of any sanctions. Absent that, I think more aggressive blocks are necessary. HughD did not discuss or specifically dispute the sanctions directly and instead badgered me enacting them without a direct request that they be re-considered. This kind of WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior has not lessened as time as passed. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:55, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Fyddlestix I agree that Springee's actions are sub-optimal to put it mildly. HughD at least seems to be trying to calm that down by making a fair request that Springee's comments on HughD's talk page will not be responded (which is his right) and Springee seems more intent on antagonizing him. I was just alerted to possible canvassing concerns by Springee by User:Scoobydunk who has in the past been against Springee's conduct and say pro-the side of HughD (not directly in favor but you get my point). The problem is being used by either side to get the other side banned for political reasons (or let's say to allow for or to stop editing that would either improve or worsen how these articles look if one was a partisan actor, not that anyone is). It's pure WP:BATTLEGROUND antics all around. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:12, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Springee As I stated on my talk page, this and this does not help this ARE discussion. I'd suggest you immediately stop anything further about it and drop it. As to anything further, a separate AE request could be made about Springee but that's best for another day. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:57, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
William M. Connolley That conduct is standard behavior for HughD whenever he is engaged in an RFC, namely removal and reorganization of the comments of others, and repeated responses with passive-aggressive statements hounding some, thanking others and requesting that they depersonalize or deescalate or whatever the situation. I was first involved with HughD and enacted the first sanctions due to his conduct and chaos at two dual simultaneous RFCs at Talk:Americans for Prosperity for the same request which involved not just one extensive ANI discussion but two of them at the same time. The same issues persist since August. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:49, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Springee
HughD has clearly been testing limits for a while. On Dec 22nd-23rd this editor violated the 3RR rule [[119]]. HughD is particularly bad about engaging in topic page discussions vs acting on the article page. I have had a number of disagreements with HughD. They boil down to both a bludgeoning attitude and a refusal to engage on the talk page and gain consensus vs just acting. Even when he is posting on the talk page his comments are often not meant to discuss. Since I'm far from an uninvolved editor my views should be seen as such. I would suggest Ricky's POV be given a lot of weight in this discussion. HughD is an editor who will certainly push the rules again and badger admins again if he is unhappy with rulings against him. Springee (talk) 04:14, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Reply to Fyddlestix: Please note that since the unsuccessful ANI was brought against me regarding HughD I have largely not interacted with him on any work. The only direct editorial interactions I've had are related to his attempt to improperly include a Mother Jones article into a large number of WP articles ("The Dirty Dozen of Climate Change" which HughD has inserted into about a dozen articles") which dates to before the failed ANI in question. Hence you are seeing a large number of interacting WP pages though they are all related to a single topic. Looking thought my edit history since October (ie about the last two months) I see only three editorial interactions for all of November and all were related HughD attempting to reinsert a MJ reference against the limited consensus of a NPOVN and RSN discussion in three of the previous articles [120],[121],[122]. All edits done without talk page discussions on HughD's part. The talk page interactions here [123] are again related to the attempted insertion of the same MJ article. You will find the same thing with the December interactions. My posts on his talk page recently (other than the two notices which are required) was short and simply asked him to self revert a 4RR posting. If there were a large number of interactions on new subjects I would agree with Fyddlestix views (I think Fyddlestix is a very level headed editor) however, in this case the interactions have been limited to a single, previous topic which HughD has inserted into many WP articles. Springee (talk) 08:38, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Fyddlestix
I've been watching these two users interact for a while, and am getting increasingly uncomfortable with the extent to which Springee seems to be out to get HughD.
Springee has reported HughD to various noticeboards multiple times [124][125][126][127][128] and has himself been previously reported at ANI for hounding HughD [129]. There's also the issue of Springee having followed HughD to a large number of pages [130][131][132][133][134][135][136][137][138][139][140][141][142][143][144][145][146] very often to either revert or tag one of HughD's edits within a few hours of it being made. There would be even more examples there if I were to include talk pages, such as this review of one of Hugh's GA's, which I can't fathom how Springee would have come across other than by stalking HughD's contributions. Note also that HughD recently banned Springee from his talk page [147], and that Springee has since made three posts to Hugh's talk [148][149][150] (2 of these were a notice of Springee creating a noticeboard report against HughD).
I have no comment on Hugh's recent edits/actions (I've tried pretty hard to tune the squabbling of these two users out), but it's clear to me at this point that Springee is just not going to be satisfied until they succeed in getting HughD blocked. Personally I believe an IBAN is way past due here, but that's up to the admins - I'm posting now just to make sure that commenting admins are aware of the long-running animosity between these two users, as I believe it's relevant context here. Fyddlestix (talk) 05:40, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Arthur Rubin
This is not the first (or, second, or, third) time Hugh has pushed the edge of his topic ban(s). If he had struck the comments among his first actions after (or, preferably, before) commenting here, I would recommend against further enforcement action on this complaint, in spite of the fact that I feel his edits are harmful to Wikipedia's neutrality. However, he only offered to strike; he hasn't yet done so. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:38, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by William M. Connolley
I don't have an opinion on this request, but I draw any interested admin's attention to recent edits at Talk:ExxonMobil; here seems as good a place as any William M. Connolley (talk) 19:11, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning HughD
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Both of the edits listed above appear to be violations of HughD's topic ban. Terms of the ban are stated stated in DSLOG. "...that ban has been redefined and expanded to cover everything related to conservative US politics from 2009 to the present, broadly construed until August 28, 2016.."The widening of the ban was enacted by User:Ricky81682 on 11 December.
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- Regarding the first diff: he is asking for someone to close an RfC about watchdog.org that he himself opened. It was technically OK for him to open the RfC on 8 December, but after 11 December he should be keeping hands off the RfC per the terms of his ban.
- Regarding the second diff: Citizens United (organization) is included in Category:New Right organizations (United States) so it is related to conservative US politics. The court case discussed was decided in 2010 so this is covered by conservative US politics from 2009 to the present. HughD's point about Bluebook citations might be OK if made elsewhere, so long as it were not made on the talk page of a court case he is banned from discussing.
- I recommend that HughD offer to cure his ban violation by striking out both of the comments named in this request. EdJohnston (talk) 17:18, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
- This editor seems receptive to guidance as to whether the two subject edits violated the topic-ban. I believe they did, but in view of his comments, I believe that pointing this out and cautioning against a recurrence is a sufficient response. I don't think the editor should be required to strike out the two comments, though; I understand that that would be a gesture of compliance with the topic-ban, but the net result would be to call more, not less, attention to the comments that shouldn't have been made and that I trust won't be made again. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:20, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
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- Calling HughD 'receptive to guidance' would be an optimistic conclusion given the debates he has engaged in at User talk:Ricky81682. Nonetheless HughD has made a statement above suggesting that he won't continue. So I'd be OK with closing this with a warning to HughD to make no more edits like the two diffs cited at top of this complaint. EdJohnston (talk) 04:20, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Kachelus
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Kachelus
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Ricky81682 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 19:31, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Kachelus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity#Motion:_Longevity_.28August_2015.29 :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
This editor is a long-term WP:SPA who's involvement at Wikipedia since September 2009 is (almost all) editing longevity articles. Discretionary sanctions are warranted against accounts that have a "clear shared agenda" such as those who consistently edit articles, and vote in AfDs to favor the position of the Gerontology Research Group, as opposed to the goals of Wikipedia. This is that type of editor.
- August 20, 2014 and June 29, 2014: Example of the typical editing by Kachelus which is of typical hyper-technical listcruft for the WOP tables, revising location of an alleged supercentenarian with no source provided (one being a edit summary to a random obscure GRG subpage with zero evidence for its credibility).
- December 19, 2015 Restoration of the nonsense that claims are "unverified" when they are classified as "unverified" under the GRG as opposed to when they are unverified as meant under WP:V. This has been well settled since August 2015.
- December 20, 2015 Reverting at Australian page to again assert GRG's "verified" status as opposed to what Wikipedia cares about.
- December 30, 2015 In an AFD, demands that "First create a list on wikipedia with all verified dead supercentenarians in a sortable table, sortable to gender, to year of death, to place of death, and then all the other lists could be merged or deleted. But not the other way round, because in this way there is danger of losing information in case of being not installed of the big table. So I wait for the big table." showing a complete disassociation for what is useful and productive here.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Editor has been editing in this area for many years and while there is almost no talk page comments, this one at that time had the ARBCOM notice on the talk page.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Kachelus As was suggested with respect to 930310 above, if you have any concerns about Legacypac, please propose a section here that explicitly explains the issues. It did no good in the section above and it will do no good here either. As to Ollie231213, I don't need to rehash the fact that a number of outside admins with no involvement in this area that agreed and supported the topic ban. If the same happens here, so be it. As to your editing, first, the issue is that the GRG has those categories and yet Wikipedia discussion after discussion among people who work on the entire encyclopedia and not the supercentenarian hobbyists have found the GRG unverified claims as not reliable sources. There have been numerous RFCs and debates on this policy with clear-cut support against the vast minority viewpoint that the GRG needs to be separately distinguished in any way. If you don't agree with that, fine but those views are considered disruptive and counter-productive here. It is not your opinions per se but the fact that your opinions reflect a complete disregard for the fundamentals behind Wikipedia's sourcing policy here with such things as demands to create a directory of supercentenarians before even considering deleting anything here that are problematic. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:35, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Kachelus
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Kachelus
Ok firstly sorry I have to say you are wrong, Ricky81682 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log). In English wikipedia my main itenerary is longevity, yes, in other Wikipedias it is amateur soccer, politics, history and geography, but these are things you didn't know. So long-term WP:SPA is only partly true, because this topic is only dealt in English wikipedia. Over the years I tried to get the several lists in this topic to a similar content and show the correct historic names of regions about 110 years ago if they were not already written in these lists. In Wikipedia is not only GRG a source, several other media also reported supercentenarians I showed. Unfortunately GRG did not prove them, but that is not my fault when wikipedia lists made differences between verified, pending and unverified cases — it was not me who introduced that. I just want to keep information on wikipedia before people wish to remove them for reasons we cannot really understand. Over the years no one concerned about that, just now, I don't know why. But now I understand your wish to ban everyone who is not on your opinion (e.g. Ollie231213) and I think that is not what Wikipedia stands for. Legacypac nominates for AfD, and you wish to ban editors who have the opposite opinion (keeping), sorry that is not the way I want to waste my free-time for arguing against, I am not paid for that. Do, what you wish to do and be lucky with that. I wish you a very Happy New Year!--Kachelus (talk) 23:55, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Kachelus
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.