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Application of WP:NFC#UUI #17
A discussion is happening WT:FOOTY regarding the usage of logos on national team pages. There's a lot of discussion there, but to summarize: Should a non-free logo be allowed to be used for (A) all national teams of a national association, or (B) only for the national association? This issue has come up in football articles, but has application across other sports article groupings (such as international basketball). Thus, why it is brought here.
As a case example; please view File:Football Association of Wales logo.svg. It is currently used as per (A) above; the national association and it's child entities that represent it. It was removed from the child entities along the lines of (B) but was restored.
My inclination is yes, they should be allowed. It is similar to a case such as a university, where we allow the logo to be used for the main sports article of the university, and for teams under the umbrella of that university, but nowhere else (such as season articles). Similarly, we allow the use of a non-free logo for a championship, but not for individual articles about a particular year of the championship.
Thoughts? --Hammersoft (talk) 13:53, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
- I'm in favor of any discussion which helps to clarify the NFCC, and make it easier to understand and apply. I've tried before at Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 64#Clarification requested regarding UUI#17, but that the discussion didn't get very far. I think, however, that this particular interpretation of the NFCC has been extended to cover university mascot logos for university sports teams as well based upon some NFCR/FFD discussions (I particpated in a few) with the close being that it is OK to use such logos in stand-alone articles about a university's athletic department, but not OK in the individual team articles, etc. In such cases, either a freely licensed file, such as a wordmark, or another non-free file specific to the team has been used instead. Similarly, FFD discussions have been closed where the use of non-free offcial university seals and logos is considered OK for the main article about the university, but not for individual colleges or departments of the university. The same interpretation has also been applied to companies and their subsidiaries, and to other organizations as well. I guess what I'm trying to say is that this interpretation has been applied through FFD to cases other than national football team logos, so simply singling them out and creating an exemption for them might be tricky. Maybe the discussion should be as to whether this interpretation of the guideline (No. 17) is valid at all across the board.
- As for the Wales logo, the source url seems to be more about a car company which sponsors various national teams, then the teams themselves. Should there be something specifically connecting an individual team with the logo be required if this type of non-free use is going to be allowed? It seems that in more than a few cases, non-free rationales were simply copied-and-pasted without much thought as the logo was added to team articles like was done at File:Thailand national team.png or that multiple uses where simply combined into a single rationale like at File:KSA-Badge.png. I might be a good idea to discuss how the rationales should satisfy NFCC#10c if this kind of usage is to be allowed. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:41, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
Stepping out, but wanted to clarify: I am not looking to rehash the discussion at WT:NFOOTY, nor seeking another forum for it. Rather, trying to address the abstract issue which will have an impact on the specific issue. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:44, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
- @Hammersoft: Sorry about that. Wasn't trying to derail the discussion. Just wanted to point out that No. 17 is being applied the same way to university teams w.r.t. mascot logos. Anyway, I think the following two things should be discussed to clarify if or how No. 17 applies to this type of logo: (1) The relationship between a national federation and a national team; and (2) the meaning of "when the child entity lacks their own branding" in No. 17 of WP:NFC#UUI. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:17, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
I think they should not be removed from national team articles; my main reasons for this have been outlined in the WP:FOOTY discussion by other editors. I will paste below some of the things they said:
- "I would have thought they would be covered by number 2 of WP:NFCI which states team or corporate logos are acceptable."
- "When a football team is competing internationally it is competing as the representative team of its association. It is not a child entity. The england national football team is not a member of UEFA, the FA is. When England compete in competition it is the association as a member of UEFA with the team as its representative individuals. Thus the team and the FA are not parent and child but equal and inseparable elements of the same."
- "I have the impression that the Wikipedia community implicitly allows for using a national association badge for its national team(s), as the logo says "shirt badge/association crest" when your pointer stands on it."
- "The fact that some federations have two distinct logos for both federation and team may very well be by choice. The real questions we should ask is, can you have a federation without a national team and/or national team without a federation? If the answer is no, then I cannot see them being separate entities. Nonetheless, number 2 of WP:NFCI mentioned by Kosack should have trumped number 17 of WP:NFC#UUI at the time of discussion. With that being said, a "league" governed by a federation would be considered a "child entity". You can have a federation without a league, but not a federation without a national team."
- "National teams serve as the physical representation of a member association in FIFA / continental competition."
- "Minimal is the minimum number of uses needed to enable the logo to aid as the primary means of identification. If there are ten teams then there is justification for ten uses, if there is one then there is justification for only one."
- "The team is not separate from the association but is the association, as it is the association that competes as a member of the organising body of a given competition. The team is not the member, it is the representative of the association."
- "'The guideline is very clear: The logo of an entity used for identification of one of its child entities, when the child entity lacks their own branding. Specific child entity logos remain acceptable.' That doesn't relate to national teams. Those crests are as much the associations' branding as their different national teams' branding. Every official match they played, they have those crest on their shirts."
- So overall I don't think the national team is the child entity of the association at all; they are inseparable. Also, national teams don't lack their own branding - some national teams have their own logos while others use the FA logo but either way they do not lack their own branding and in both cases they should be shown on the page. That's my opinion. Hashim-afc (talk) 18:54, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
- What we need is experienced editors to give us clarification as to what counts as a 'child entity'. If national teams are one, then clearly we can't use them; if they're not, then clearly we can. Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 19:44, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
- WP:NFCI starts out by saying "Some non-free images may be used on Wikipedia, providing they meet both the legal criteria for fair use, and Wikipedia's own guidelines for non-free content. Non-free images that reasonably could be replaced by free content images are not suitable for Wikipedia. All non-free images must meet each non-free content criterion; failure to meet those overrides any acceptable allowance here. NFCI#2 just says that the non-free use of team logos may be acceptable, it does not say that it is automatically acceptable. It also links to WP:LOGO#Uploading non-free logos, which says basically the same thing: non-free use must comply with WP:NFCC. So, trying to argue that something like #2 of NFCI trumps policy is a bit hard when it clearly says that it does not.
- Many individual team articles have a statement in their lead which says something like "The ABC national football team represents ABC in international football and is controlled by the ABC Football Association, the governing body for football in ABC", which seems to imply that the national teams are under the jurisdiction or control the respective federation. My very basic understanding is that it is the national federations which which typically make all of the business arrangements (including the choice of branding), control the merchandising, select the management personal of the teams and maybe even select the players of the teams as well. The teams do not seem to be operated independently of their respective federations, but rather seem to be more like different divisions of the federation much like a corporation might have different divisions. If this is the case and national federations, not the teams, control the branding, then I don't follow how these logos are the branding of the team in any way other than perhaps public perception. The team may use the logo by de-fault, but I'm not sure the fact they just use the logo means that No. 17 does not apply to them. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:16, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
- What we need is experienced editors to give us clarification as to what counts as a 'child entity'. If national teams are one, then clearly we can't use them; if they're not, then clearly we can. Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 19:44, 19 June 2016 (UTC)