WikiProject Manual of Style | |||||||||||
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Contents
- 1 RfC notice: Use of flag icons on genocide-related articles
- 2 Ambiguity in the Plurals section
- 3 "because titles with en-dashes are hard to type"
- 4 Single quotation marks
- 5 Use versus mention in lede sentences
- 6 Neutral notification of move discussion
- 7 Arbitrary changes of style, notation, formatting and convention
- 8 Wikipedia:Today's featured article/April 28, 2016
- 9 USA all the way
Please see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons#Use of flag icons on genocide-related articles. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 21:30, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
Ambiguity in the Plurals section
Under Plurals, it says "allow for cases" where the common dictionary plural differs from the original root-language plural. To me, "allow for" means it's OK to use the non-dictionary-preferred form, but the examples given seem to indicate the opposite. The two dictionaries I use most both list "excursuses (also excursus)" as the plural of excursus, so I assume we are not talking about words for which the dictionary omits the archaic plural entirely.
Full disclosure: I want to use the dictionary-preferred plurals in every case. I particularly dislike the affected "aquaria," which I see all over the place in Wikipedia.
Can we adjust the language in the MOS so that this is a little clearer, one way or the other? Krychek (talk) 19:26, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
- "Aquaria" seems affected to you; "aquariums" seems quite wrong to me. There are ENGVAR differences, differences of usage in different topic areas, etc. The MOS sensibly allows variation. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:09, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not sure it does. The MOS is not simply vague; it's self-contradictory. Krychek (talk) 20:19, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
- Which ENGVAR uses "aquaria"? I know I do, but is that an American thing? Dicklyon (talk) 04:00, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- Latin affected editors would prefer "aquaria". Does ENGVAR restrict its scope to variations that cross physical boundaries? To me, aquaria would be preferred to an uncountable plural, aquariums to countable plurals. Go stand near the aquariums. That type of fish are usually bred in aquaria. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:48, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- Ah, the Latin-affected variant of English. I didn't know about that one. Dicklyon (talk) 05:06, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- Didn't know, or had not thought of it that way?
- Look here and tell me if you agree that the circumstances are primed for an aqauria battle? Law and medicine subjects, which are more-so latin-affected, aren't ready yet. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:10, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- It is quite a bit of antiquarian nonsense, if you ask me. "Moratoria" or "referenda"? No way. "Moratoriums" and "referendums", certainly. There is no reason to retain Latin structure in English, and it merely confuses people who do not have the luxury of a classical education. Indeed, the OED considers "referenda" to be archaic. "Aquaria" is even worse.... RGloucester — ☎ 05:13, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- I had forgotten we were fighting about moratoriaums. Added here. I don't think the case is made that latin-affected plurals are archaic. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:17, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- This is one case where Ngrams really isn't helpful. It has a disposition towards good book sources, which is usually a good thing, but in this case results in a bias toward to stilted academic writing that is not meant for a broad audience, and which doesn't represent how people actual speak. The vast majority of people are not usually in the habit of saying curricula, syllabi, referenda, planetaria, &c. It simply doesn't make much sense to make life harder for the reader, given that the "s" forms are in common usage, and are nowadays even found in "good" sources. Indeed, I find such usages "affected", and this is coming from someone who naturally has a very "affected-sounding" speech pattern. RGloucester — ☎ 05:22, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- "This is one case where Ngrams really isn't helpful". Did you look at the result first? Redirects will solve any problems. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:25, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- Except that very often the main article title is singular and so doesn't give guidance, resulting in slow edit wars in the content and auxiliary articles, particularly lists, often get moved backwards and forwards because there's no central control. CFD has similarly had a few problems over the years because there's usually no main article to follow. IME this is most definitely not a case of national variety - the same debate seems to be waged everywhere and I suspect the real difference between countries can be chalked down to a) how long a classical education remained standard amongst those who got published and b) the levels of deference or hostility to those who have that classical education in a particular society (seriously how many people get pissed off at being berated for not using a plural that was part of their berater's education but not their own and instinctively reject it outright?). Timrollpickering (talk) 22:10, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- I don't know. I have no real world experience of people being emotionally affected by classical spelling styles. I maintain support for the ENGVAR-style Latin-affect suggestion, along the lines that the original style of the first non-stub version of the article should be maintain until there is a consensus supporting a good reason to change it. Categories should defer to parent articles. Categories without parent articles in active dispute over styling I see as examples of WP:LAME. The few times I have engaged, my opinion tends towards deleting categories without parent articles; there are too many categories already, if there is a good case for a new category there is a case for writing the parent article. I expect there may be good counter examples, but I don't think every issue is important. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:18, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- Usually the category does have a main article but it's named in singular and so sidesteps the plural debate. The use in the article's content often changes and has never really carried the day at CFD. Timrollpickering (talk) 18:34, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- I don't know. I have no real world experience of people being emotionally affected by classical spelling styles. I maintain support for the ENGVAR-style Latin-affect suggestion, along the lines that the original style of the first non-stub version of the article should be maintain until there is a consensus supporting a good reason to change it. Categories should defer to parent articles. Categories without parent articles in active dispute over styling I see as examples of WP:LAME. The few times I have engaged, my opinion tends towards deleting categories without parent articles; there are too many categories already, if there is a good case for a new category there is a case for writing the parent article. I expect there may be good counter examples, but I don't think every issue is important. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:18, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- Except that very often the main article title is singular and so doesn't give guidance, resulting in slow edit wars in the content and auxiliary articles, particularly lists, often get moved backwards and forwards because there's no central control. CFD has similarly had a few problems over the years because there's usually no main article to follow. IME this is most definitely not a case of national variety - the same debate seems to be waged everywhere and I suspect the real difference between countries can be chalked down to a) how long a classical education remained standard amongst those who got published and b) the levels of deference or hostility to those who have that classical education in a particular society (seriously how many people get pissed off at being berated for not using a plural that was part of their berater's education but not their own and instinctively reject it outright?). Timrollpickering (talk) 22:10, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- "This is one case where Ngrams really isn't helpful". Did you look at the result first? Redirects will solve any problems. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:25, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- This is one case where Ngrams really isn't helpful. It has a disposition towards good book sources, which is usually a good thing, but in this case results in a bias toward to stilted academic writing that is not meant for a broad audience, and which doesn't represent how people actual speak. The vast majority of people are not usually in the habit of saying curricula, syllabi, referenda, planetaria, &c. It simply doesn't make much sense to make life harder for the reader, given that the "s" forms are in common usage, and are nowadays even found in "good" sources. Indeed, I find such usages "affected", and this is coming from someone who naturally has a very "affected-sounding" speech pattern. RGloucester — ☎ 05:22, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- Ah, the Latin-affected variant of English. I didn't know about that one. Dicklyon (talk) 05:06, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- Latin affected editors would prefer "aquaria". Does ENGVAR restrict its scope to variations that cross physical boundaries? To me, aquaria would be preferred to an uncountable plural, aquariums to countable plurals. Go stand near the aquariums. That type of fish are usually bred in aquaria. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:48, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- Seriously, I suggest that Latin-affected variants of English be accepted as ENGVARs. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:27, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
-
- I think that's just called English, though I admit that with the lack of classical education in recent decades, Latin plurals are on their way out, slowly. I sat through a tech talk where the new Ph.D. speaker used criteria and criterion exactly reversed; it was painful. Dicklyon (talk) 05:31, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yep. It is English. There never has been a reference, or perfect, or classical English. Latin plurals are being let go, very very slowly. New PhD speaker? Typically, they should be thought of as an apprentice, head full of PhD stuff often with poor context, but instead the expectation is of expertise. An hour later, he probably realised what he'd been saying. The shame burns. My interpretation for a message to us? Advise newcomers of the teachings of the MOS, gently. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:06, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- Fundamentally, ENGVAR is a compromise allowing Yanks and Brits to work together. Even the other national varieties are mostly a distraction — mostly their formal written versions are close enough to BrE not to really matter much in encyclopedic writing, maybe with the exception of Canadian which is 50% or so.
- But phrasing it that way too straightforwardly would not have gone over well, so we have the "national varieties for English-speaking countries" workaround.
- Trying to generalize that further, to things like "Latin-affected", does not strike me as a good idea. --Trovatore (talk) 19:32, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- Perhaps we should all agree to use Canadian spelling as a compromise? :-)
- @RGloucester: so would you recommend criterions? I doubt biologists would agree to accept genuses rather than genera. And then what? Specie as the singular of species, which I see all the time? Peter coxhead (talk) 19:47, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- I don't want to play the académie anglaise game. What I said above is rather simple: in as much as a form based on English grammar (as opposed to being based upon arbitrary notions of correct grammar in a "dead" language), such as "referendums" or "aquariums", is common used and accepted, I believe that that form should be used. I've not seen any evidence of common acceptance of "criterions", but who knows? I haven't spent any time looking into it, and don't plan to. To be clear, I do not want the MoS to proscribe or prescribe a form in cases like these. This is pure conjecture, on my part. RGloucester — ☎ 20:07, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- No need to prescribe, but I'm pretty sure that criterions would just be corrected as an error. Nobody does that. Dicklyon (talk) 20:19, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
-
- Interestingly, a look at the Ngrams for "criteria" versus "criterion" shows that usage of "criteria" and "criterion" roughly matched each other until some point in the 1950s, when "criteria" began to rise heavily, whilst "criterion" began a long decline. Presumably this implies that many people began to start saying "a criteria", which is certainly something I've heard before. I'm sure you fellows don't like that either. RGloucester — ☎ 20:33, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
-
- No need to prescribe, but I'm pretty sure that criterions would just be corrected as an error. Nobody does that. Dicklyon (talk) 20:19, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- I don't want to play the académie anglaise game. What I said above is rather simple: in as much as a form based on English grammar (as opposed to being based upon arbitrary notions of correct grammar in a "dead" language), such as "referendums" or "aquariums", is common used and accepted, I believe that that form should be used. I've not seen any evidence of common acceptance of "criterions", but who knows? I haven't spent any time looking into it, and don't plan to. To be clear, I do not want the MoS to proscribe or prescribe a form in cases like these. This is pure conjecture, on my part. RGloucester — ☎ 20:07, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- I think that's just called English, though I admit that with the lack of classical education in recent decades, Latin plurals are on their way out, slowly. I sat through a tech talk where the new Ph.D. speaker used criteria and criterion exactly reversed; it was painful. Dicklyon (talk) 05:31, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- Why must we constantly try to reinvent the wheel? Dictionaries exist for a reason. Standard spellings have already been sorted out for us. I know dictionaries might not always agree with each other, but when they do (as is the case with aquariums), can we for once just take the path of least resistance? Please? Krychek (talk) 20:39, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
-
- Forcing others onto a single path is not taking the path of least resistance. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:20, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
-
- Then why have any MOS at all? The goal of such an endeavor is to make Wikipedia somewhat consistent. If you disagree with that notion, I guess you'll need to start a campaign against the entire MOS. Krychek (talk) 21:12, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
-
- You are posing a classic false dichotomy. If not complete direction on everything, why have any direction? Either the style guide must be absolute, comprehensive and rigid, or have no style guide at all? It is very easy to have somewhat consistency while allowing editor's to choose for aquaria/aquariums according to what seems to best suit the use. when writing, do you get hung up on synonyms? Please don't suggest, for example, always using the shorter synonym. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:08, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Krychek: but there isn't a standard plural for aquarium in dictionaries; as far as I can tell all the most authoritative dictionaries give both aquariums and aquaria. So both are allowed here. Consistent use of either in an article should not be corrected. The fact that you don't like aquaria and I don't like aquariums is irrelevant. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:23, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Peter coxhead: The first listing is generally understood to be preferred, which I do understand is not exactly the same thing as "standard." At any rate, we've strayed far from my original purpose here, and that is to make the language of the MOS less self-contradictory. If the consensus is that non-preferred plurals are to be allowed, then those examples need to be removed (or corrected to say both plurals are fine). Otherwise, they indicate the opposite of what the MOS is supposedly trying to say. Krychek (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Krychek: dictionaries don't have "preferences"; that's the task of a style manual. I do agree that the MOS needs to be clarified. It seems to me that the consensus here is to allow any of the accepted variants found in quality dictionaries so long as there is consistency within each article. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:20, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Peter coxhead: splitting hairs does not tend to sway opinions, but fine, I'll play -- the first entry in a dictionary generally comes first because it is more common. And nearly every style guide on the planet is going to use the first spelling as its preference. So again, we are back to reinventing the wheel. In other parts of the Wikipedia MOS, the more widely used of multiple alternatives is preferred (WP:COMMONNAME, etc.), but just not here, for some reason. Krychek (talk) 15:24, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Krychek: well, if we're splitting hairs, I'd say that WP:COMMONNAME is constantly misinterpreted to mean that commonness rules all, whereas it's only one of the criteria set out at WP:AT. And the same applies here, I think: commonness overall is not the only issue. If it were true that the more widely used of multiple alternatives was always preferred then Wikipedia would be written in US English. [For what it's worth, Google ngrams show that "aquariums" overtook "aquaria" in the American English corpus around 1982, whereas "aquaria" remains more popular (just) up to the last year of data (2008) in British English.] Dictionaries are also inconsistent: MeriamWebster online gives "femurs" before "femora" but "tibiae" before "tibias", but it would surely be more appropriate to use "femurs" and "tibias" in an article or "femora" and "tibiae", the choice depending on the nature of the article. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:20, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
- It's actually worse than that, Peter coxhead; COMMONAME isn't even one of the WP:CRITERIA, it's just the default choice, as the name most likely to comply with the criteria. The criteria themselves actually overrule COMMONNAME, though it doesn't happen every day). This COMMONNAME fetishism really has gone too far in the last few years. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:20, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Krychek: well, if we're splitting hairs, I'd say that WP:COMMONNAME is constantly misinterpreted to mean that commonness rules all, whereas it's only one of the criteria set out at WP:AT. And the same applies here, I think: commonness overall is not the only issue. If it were true that the more widely used of multiple alternatives was always preferred then Wikipedia would be written in US English. [For what it's worth, Google ngrams show that "aquariums" overtook "aquaria" in the American English corpus around 1982, whereas "aquaria" remains more popular (just) up to the last year of data (2008) in British English.] Dictionaries are also inconsistent: MeriamWebster online gives "femurs" before "femora" but "tibiae" before "tibias", but it would surely be more appropriate to use "femurs" and "tibias" in an article or "femora" and "tibiae", the choice depending on the nature of the article. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:20, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Peter coxhead: splitting hairs does not tend to sway opinions, but fine, I'll play -- the first entry in a dictionary generally comes first because it is more common. And nearly every style guide on the planet is going to use the first spelling as its preference. So again, we are back to reinventing the wheel. In other parts of the Wikipedia MOS, the more widely used of multiple alternatives is preferred (WP:COMMONNAME, etc.), but just not here, for some reason. Krychek (talk) 15:24, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Krychek: dictionaries don't have "preferences"; that's the task of a style manual. I do agree that the MOS needs to be clarified. It seems to me that the consensus here is to allow any of the accepted variants found in quality dictionaries so long as there is consistency within each article. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:20, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
- The WP:Specialized-style fallacy notwithstanding, deference should be given to specialist usage when it does not conflict with conventional usage in mainstream publications, and when we're in the specialized context. Last I looked (in the 1990s) in any depth, aquarists and terrarists mostly prefer aquaria and terraria over the -iums plurals. So prefer those spellings in articles on those topics (and closely related ones, like tropical fish commonly kept as aquarium pets). In an article about something else entirely that mentioned aquariums in passing, use the aquariums and terrariums plurals that would be mostly likely found in general non-fiction writing, I would say (at least for North American English – Peter Coxhead may be right that there's an ENGVAR difference, with the -ia forms still preferred in British English). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:20, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Peter coxhead: The first listing is generally understood to be preferred, which I do understand is not exactly the same thing as "standard." At any rate, we've strayed far from my original purpose here, and that is to make the language of the MOS less self-contradictory. If the consensus is that non-preferred plurals are to be allowed, then those examples need to be removed (or corrected to say both plurals are fine). Otherwise, they indicate the opposite of what the MOS is supposedly trying to say. Krychek (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
"because titles with en-dashes are hard to type"
User:AnomieBOT has been adding new redirects to talk pages with en dash in their titles, "because titles with en-dashes are hard to type". Do people really ever type the titles of talk pages? I understand it's encouraged for article titles, but talk pages, too? Anyway, since about April 7 it has added about 30,000 of them. That tells me that the MOS has succeeded in educating users about how to use en dashes in various contexts (scanning quickly I didn't notice any misuses, but there could be some of those, too). Dicklyon (talk) 03:38, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- I can say that I strongly support this. I've always known the difference between an en dash and a hyphen, but when I first came to Wikipedia, I was confused by the fact that typing something like "Blah blah blah xxxx-xx" would not get me to "Blah blah blah xxxx–xx". Typing an en dash is a pain, and most people are not even aware of the distinction between en dashes and hyphens. They look very similar when viewed on a computer, as opposed to in print, and the redirects do nothing but prevent the type of confusion that arises when one types the proper name of a page into the search bar, except with a hyphen instead of en dash, and ends up at the search page with a "no such page exists" message. And yes, I do type talk page names into the search bar. RGloucester — ☎ 03:44, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- OK, it's all good then. I usually just type the article name, and click talk when I find it, since there are many good redirects for articles. By the way, they're real easy to type on a Mac keyboard – at option-hyphen since 1984. Dicklyon (talk) 03:58, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- I've never been good with key commands (or other computer-oriented tasks), but I shall remember that for the future. I've previously resorted to copying one from wherever I'm able to find one, and then pasting it in to where I need it. Such a method suffices in most cases... RGloucester — ☎ 05:00, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- An en dash is pretty easy on a Windows machine, too: Hold the ALT key and type 0150 on the numeric keypad, then release the ALT key. An em dash is ALT and 0151. The NUM LOCK can be on or off, doesn't matter. Chris the speller yack 21:23, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- I think most people consider that "pretty hard", as it's many keystrokes and there's no good way to remember it; and it only works on a numeric keypad (which you don't necessarily have). And in most Microsoft and Windows program, you can type two hyphens for autocorrection to em dash, but there's no correspondingly easy way to get an en dash, so Windows users never learn about it. Dicklyon (talk) 20:03, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
- An en dash is pretty easy on a Windows machine, too: Hold the ALT key and type 0150 on the numeric keypad, then release the ALT key. An em dash is ALT and 0151. The NUM LOCK can be on or off, doesn't matter. Chris the speller yack 21:23, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- I've never been good with key commands (or other computer-oriented tasks), but I shall remember that for the future. I've previously resorted to copying one from wherever I'm able to find one, and then pasting it in to where I need it. Such a method suffices in most cases... RGloucester — ☎ 05:00, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- OK, it's all good then. I usually just type the article name, and click talk when I find it, since there are many good redirects for articles. By the way, they're real easy to type on a Mac keyboard – at option-hyphen since 1984. Dicklyon (talk) 03:58, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- I certainly type the titles of talk pages directly into the URL bar. I type fast, so it much quicker for me to type Talk:Dunning–Kruger effect than to load the article and click on its talk link. I also use a Mac, which makes typing en and em dashes trivially easy (shift-option-hyphen for em dash). For Windows and Linux people it's more complicated, with numeric codes or a GUI character picker, so the shortcuts are useful for them. Remember the WP:RFD mantra: "Redirects are cheap." :-) — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:03, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
Single quotation marks
Even though MOS:SINGLE says that in simple glosses, "unfamiliar terms are usually enclosed in single quotes",[1] that section links to Gloss (annotation) § In linguistics, which references only Historical Linguistics: An Introduction, a book printed and bound in Great Britain (where in most contexts, '
is used instead of "
), and a book in which the author does not distinguish between the singles and doubles (for example, "books or articles on ‘proper’ English ..."),[2]:10 and moreover, uses ‘typographical quotation marks’ instead of the typewriter‑style 'apostrophes' and "straight quotation marks" that MOS:QUOTEMARKS recommends.
I am not aware of any other English‑language encyclopedia that differentiates between single and double quotations in the way we currently recommend, and the contents of MOS:SINGLE appear to be what came from a 2006 discussion which found house style recommendations for double quotation marks or parentheses, but not for single quotation marks in glosses only. There is no support whatsoever for the use of apostrophes in glosses and quotation marks elsewhere, which is what we currently recommend.
The answer is probably just that: replace the text like so:
-
- Simple glosses that translate or define unfamiliar terms are usually enclosed quotation marks or parentheses:
- Cossack comes from the Turkic qazaq "freebooter" or
- Cossack comes from the Turkic qazaq (freebooter).
- Simple glosses that translate or define unfamiliar terms are usually enclosed quotation marks or parentheses:
—LLarson (said & done) 15:05, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
- "No support whatsoever"? Um, no. Try a tsunami of support from every style guide in entire field of linguistics. As for what we're linking to internally being inadequate, it's just because we have a gap in our linguistics articles, and no better place to link. There's no reason for us to be linking to it. Anyway, it's completely standard practice to write Mi casa es su casa, 'my house is your house'. This is done with or without the comma; it tends to be dropped in journals, but the text is clearer with it in many cases in encyclopedic writing, or sometimes preceded by "literally" or "lit." or "meaning" or "translated as", or used in a "foo, [Language name here] for 'bar'" construction, etc., as the context seems to warrant. As a linguistic style sheet from Albany U. [1] puts it: "Glosses (i.e. translations) for data are given in single quotation marks. Unless sentence structure warrants otherwise, glosses follow the cited data immediately, with no other punctuation." On WP, our sentence structure often does warrant otherwise.
The single quotes are uniform, very nearly universal, usage in all linguistics materials, and it's very useful since it distinguishes precisely what the thing is, a gloss of what just came before, and not some other kind of annotation. Most obvious external source for this is the Linguist Society of America stylesheet: "After the first occurrence of non-English forms, provide a gloss in single quotation marks". The Chicago Manual of Style also covers this. So does the Canadian Journal of Linguistics style guide [2]. So do university linguistics dept. style guides (e.g. this one): "Use only single quotation marks for quotes within quotes and for glosses of foreign words. ... Cited forms in a foreign language should be followed at their first occurrence by a gloss in single quotation marks." And this one from U. of Alabama: "After the first occurrence of non-English forms, provide a gloss in single quotation marks". And various ones provided by linguistics professors/researchers like this one by Haspelmath ("Single quotation marks are used exclusively for linguistic meanings, e.g. Latin habere 'have' is not cognate with Old English hafian 'have'."), and another by Gruyter Mouton, and so on. There are only two major linguistics journals that don't insist on it. But seriously, you can just Google this in five seconds and find a whole flood of material about this [3]. Interlinear, morpheme-by-morpheme glosses should be formatted as un-bordered tables. This is part of the Leipzig Glossing Rule], a widely adopted standard (may well be near-universal now; I can't remember the last time I saw linguistic material that did not follow it, and it was already standard by the 1990s in all the classes I took in the subject. One of the above cited pages says it is part of basic competency in the field now.)
If I didn't have real work to do today, I could easily provide 50+ citations for this stuff in about an hour or two. Please do your research before coming here and declaring what the real-world "facts" are. "There is no support whatsoever"? When you come here with confrontational declarations like this but clearly haven't looked into the matter and are just going by your vague opinion of how things should be, you will not gain any traction on any concern you might be trying to raise. PS: You seem to be unaware that in plain ASCII, as we use for punctuation characters (i.e. not curly quotes, per MOS:CURLY), the apostrophe and single quotation mark are the same character. PPS: The parenthetical style is sometimes used, but only with the single quote style, and the distinction between them is that the parenthetical is an extremely literal translation and the singled-quoted one a usage gloss, e.g. "Soy bien cabrón danzando (I am [a] good goat dancing) 'I'm darned good at dancing'". This is "high academic" style that one would not normally use in an encyclopedia, because it will not be clear to non-linguists what the distinction is; we would explain it in prose, and probably link to wikt:cabrón so people can see the literal and informal meanings and usage. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:28, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
-
- You’re 100% correct about the parenthetical—that’s garbage and I definitely wasn’t channeling high academy but just confusing it with another concept. Mea culpa.
- Months ago, I found something on your user page that’s stuck with me and been inspirational: “Greetings! I'm a real person, like you. Collaboration improves when we remember this about each other.”[4] I’m disappointed and apologize for my post coming across as “confrontational declarations”; similarly, I’m disappointed that in light of this, you’d respond with what came across as somewhat patronizing and heavy on sarcasm. This is about how an English‑language encyclopedia should look, not about us; to that end, two days ago, I left an additional message on the talk page of the template that brought me here.[3]
- Your response seems to discount the core of my message, that is: How does an English‑language encyclopedia use quotation marks for in‑text translations, (and not so much how the Leipzig Glossing Rules apply to linguistics papers)? While I am aware that MOS:CURLY prescribes 'apostrophes' and typewriter‑style "quotation marks" in lieu of ‘single’ and “double” quotation marks respectively, that doesn’t mean that “the apostrophe and single quotation mark are the same character”. Even though the apostrophe suffices on Wikipedia in all instances where an editor might wish to use ‘ or ’, that doesn’t mean we’re working in an environment constrained by ASCII‑only conventions: 🤔. As technology begins to allow for it, I believe that the English‑language Wikipedia too will eventually graduate to the typographical punctuation seen in offline encyclopedias.
- To substance, I apologize for citing the 2006 talk page conversation and its sources instead of better sleuthing before posting. What remains is that neither of us found an encyclopedia that uses apostrophes for glosses and typewriter‑style double quotation marks elsewhere. What I have found, but hadn’t sought prior to my previous post—sorry—is Encyclopedia Britannica, which, although also published in Great Britain, uses double quotation marks (albeit “typography” not "typewriter") where Wikipedia does and ‘single quotation marks’ (but not our 'apostrophes') for short foreign‑language glossing. Ignoring these two differences, I believe we are otherwise in agreement.
- I remain admiring of your work, grateful for your attention here, and thank you for your helping me, especially in the Template namespace. —LLarson (said & done) 16:34, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
- Tone: Fair enough. At various MOS page's we've long had problems with "style warriors" showing up with "no support whatsoever" claims, based on original research or no research, some of whom have campaigned for years about one pet peeve or another. So, I shut down claims like that that can't be backed up the moment I see them, and pretty firmly, to short-circuit another pet-peeve holy war. It's nothing personal; I'm programmatic in my approach to such claims, because WP:LAME WP:DRAMA predicated on them is the biggest time waste in this entire sector of the project.
Quotation mark vs. apostrophe: I wrote carefully for a reason: "in plain ASCII ... (i.e. not curly quotes, per MOS:CURLY), the apostrophe and single quotation mark are the same character." They are. You can look this up in any ASCII table. The curly glyphs are not ASCII, they're Unicode. I agree that en.wp will eventually probably use typographic (curly) quotation marks and apostrophes; several of the non-English ones already do. I very recently raised a discussion on this page about the idea of migrating to this usage now, and there were objections, so "not yet". Straight quotes are just plain ASCII (and also part of Unicode as such, since it's a superset). Your argument that WP in general is not limited to plain ASCII is correct, but not relevant; en.wp is presently limited to plain ASCII quotation/apostrophe punctuation for most purposes.
Re: "How does an English‑language encyclopedia..." – What matters here is is how WP collectively wants to do it; we do not have to ape the style of other encyclopedias. When I arrived here a decade ago, WP was not recognizing the use of single quotes for glosses. This was irritating to anyone from a linguistics background, and linguistics editors just used it anyway, per WP:IAR. Now the usage is sanctioned (in the positive sense), because it is in fact standard usage for glosses; even Chicago Manual of Style says so. So consensus changed. You seem to have arrived years later to reverse the change in consensus, and made a claim that the usage wasn't supported by any real-world sources, but it definitely is, so at this point I guess I don't see what the conversation is about.
Re: "neither of us found an encyclopedia that uses apostrophes for glosses and typewriter‑style double quotation marks elsewhere." That's meaningless, an apples-and-oranges comparison. You won't find a paper encyclopedia that doesn't use curly quotes, and it would use curly glyphs for both quotations and glosses. WP uses non-curly for both cases. So this scenario of "is there an encyclopedia using curly for one and straight for another?" isn't likely to exist, and wouldn't matter anyway, since who cares? WP has its own house style. If it turned out that the World Book Encyclopedia coincidentally happened to do precisely what you were looking for, WP would have no reason to adopt the split-style practice. Another way of approaching this: When WP switches to using curly quotes for quotations, it will also switch to using them for glosses.
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 21:48, 24 April 2016 (UTC)- So, "even Chicago Manual of Style says so", eh? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:54, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- Martin, these weird one-liner sarcastic comments you add to every other MoS- and AT-related thread are not constructive. No one can read your mind. There's at least 4 things I can think of off the top of my head, some of the mutually exclusive, that your sarcasm could indicate. Please just state what your issue is clearly. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:57, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
- SMc, "every other MoS- and AT-related thread"? Not sure I'm quite that busy, or knowledgeable. And please tell us what are the four things. I'm suggesting that the Chicago Manual of Style has an untouchable pre-eminence as the basis for the Wikipedia Manual of Style. But at least we have a number of style guides listed under "External style guides." Can you tell us if we should use the The Guardian Style Guide for articles written in British English, or is that advice meant generally, with no relevance to WP? Martinevans123 (talk) 07:49, 25 April 2016 (UC)
- Martin, these weird one-liner sarcastic comments you add to every other MoS- and AT-related thread are not constructive. No one can read your mind. There's at least 4 things I can think of off the top of my head, some of the mutually exclusive, that your sarcasm could indicate. Please just state what your issue is clearly. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:57, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
- So, "even Chicago Manual of Style says so", eh? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:54, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- Tone: Fair enough. At various MOS page's we've long had problems with "style warriors" showing up with "no support whatsoever" claims, based on original research or no research, some of whom have campaigned for years about one pet peeve or another. So, I shut down claims like that that can't be backed up the moment I see them, and pretty firmly, to short-circuit another pet-peeve holy war. It's nothing personal; I'm programmatic in my approach to such claims, because WP:LAME WP:DRAMA predicated on them is the biggest time waste in this entire sector of the project.
References
- ^ Wikipedia:Manual of Style § Single quotation marks (this version)
- ^ Campbell, Lyle (2004) [1st pub. 1998 by Edinburgh University Press]. Historical Linguistics: An Introduction (2nd ed.). The MIT Press. ISBN 0-262-53267-0. LCCN 2004042637.
- ^ “You know I’m pretty fond of you and your work, but this doesn’t look quite right to me; apologies if I got the order of operations wrong, but I brought it up on MOS talk instead of here. Thank you, again.”
Anyone know when the "glosses" line got added to MOS:SINGLE? I don't recall ever seeing that usage at FAC, and I'm concerned that it's going to confuse some writers. - Dank (push to talk) 04:31, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- On my Mom's 87th birthday: [5]. Dicklyon (talk) 05:22, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- Okay, the discussions were at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Linguistics/Archive_11#Glosses: Single quotes or double quotes? and Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_160#Suggested section "9.2.4. Linguistic use". McCandlish, I'm not following your argument at the second link ... I don't object to mentioning this exception at MOS, but why aren't we being clear that this punctuation is seen mainly among linguists? Most Wikipedians won't know what a "gloss" is, so they'll decode the meaning from context, and will assume we're saying single quotes are fine in word definitions. This one is going to create headaches at FAC. - Dank (push to talk) 12:27, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- What sort of "headaches at FAC"? Can you point to examples? It difficult to understand what alleged problem you want to address and how to potentially address it otherwise. The single-quoted gloss usage is for providing translation glosses (mi casa es su casa, 'my house is your house'), and can also be used for explicit definitions of English words as words being treated as linguistic units (as in: the term gloss in this context does not mean 'shine' or 'sheen'), not for running-prose explanations of the meaning of English terms used in context (which uses no markup: Albinism, the lack of melanin pigment, is genetic), nor for presentation of words as words themselves (usually italicize: The word albino is considered offensive by some as a description of people with albinism; or quotation marks when the context is already using italics for other purposes). MOS has various terms in that are not everyday words; editors know how to use a dictionary and can easily find out what gloss means in this context. The reason MoS is the length it is and non 10× longer is we trust editors to look up terms and concepts that may be unfamiliar to them; it's not MoS's job to act as a linguistics and copyediting instructions course, just a quick reference. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 21:48, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- People were interested in this issue 8 months ago ... is there still interest, or has this been put to bed already? - Dank (push to talk) 22:31, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- Well, the issue was that we were not accounting for a common, standardized use of single quotes, people wanted it addressed, and so it was. Now it's April 2016, and one person doubted that the style was real, I proved it is, and then you posted a request for info on when the change was made, which was provided. I asked for examples of it supposedly causing problems, and you didn't provide any. So, I still don't see a current issue/problem to resolve, and things seem stable and uncontroversial. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:57, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
- People were interested in this issue 8 months ago ... is there still interest, or has this been put to bed already? - Dank (push to talk) 22:31, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- What sort of "headaches at FAC"? Can you point to examples? It difficult to understand what alleged problem you want to address and how to potentially address it otherwise. The single-quoted gloss usage is for providing translation glosses (mi casa es su casa, 'my house is your house'), and can also be used for explicit definitions of English words as words being treated as linguistic units (as in: the term gloss in this context does not mean 'shine' or 'sheen'), not for running-prose explanations of the meaning of English terms used in context (which uses no markup: Albinism, the lack of melanin pigment, is genetic), nor for presentation of words as words themselves (usually italicize: The word albino is considered offensive by some as a description of people with albinism; or quotation marks when the context is already using italics for other purposes). MOS has various terms in that are not everyday words; editors know how to use a dictionary and can easily find out what gloss means in this context. The reason MoS is the length it is and non 10× longer is we trust editors to look up terms and concepts that may be unfamiliar to them; it's not MoS's job to act as a linguistics and copyediting instructions course, just a quick reference. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 21:48, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- Okay, the discussions were at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Linguistics/Archive_11#Glosses: Single quotes or double quotes? and Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_160#Suggested section "9.2.4. Linguistic use". McCandlish, I'm not following your argument at the second link ... I don't object to mentioning this exception at MOS, but why aren't we being clear that this punctuation is seen mainly among linguists? Most Wikipedians won't know what a "gloss" is, so they'll decode the meaning from context, and will assume we're saying single quotes are fine in word definitions. This one is going to create headaches at FAC. - Dank (push to talk) 12:27, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- Some advice, please: I just tried to update the ukiyo-e article with this style of glossing, but it seemed to work particularly badly with terms with long glosses in the middle of running text. I had:
- Utamaro (c. 1753–1806) made his name in the 1790s with his bijin ōkubi-e ("large-headed pictures of beautiful women") portraits, focusing ...
- and nearly changed it to:
- Utamaro (c. 1753–1806) made his name in the 1790s with his bijin ōkubi-e 'large-headed pictures of beautiful women' portraits, focusing ...
- which looks pretty disastrous to me. At the moment I've got:
- Utamaro (c. 1753–1806) made his name in the 1790s with his bijin ōkubi-e ('large-headed pictures of beautiful women') portraits, focusing ...
- Comments or advice? Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 01:22, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'd leave it as it was. Whatever else it is, "unfamiliar terms are usually enclosed in single quotes" is completely wrong as a descriptive statement about WP style, since this is super-rare. To argue against it in terms of Planet MOS I'd have to read all that stuff by SMcCandlish, so that's not really an option. Johnbod (talk) 18:07, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Use versus mention in lede sentences
In this edit I tried to fix what I find as a not-uncommon weird lede structure of the form "The <title> refers to ..." or "The <title> is the name of ..." – essentially mixing up the possibility to use the subject name or to refer to it. A possible fix would be "<Title> is the name of ..." or something like that, italicizing the mentioned term. But it seems preferable, and much more common to just use instead of mention, as "The <title> is ...".
Question: is this addressed anywhere in the MOS? If not, should it be? Dicklyon (talk) 18:36, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
Here's another like that: [6]. Should the MOS contain advice to prefer such? Dicklyon (talk) 17:09, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- For Jack Rose (cocktail), I would suggest re-phrasing the sentence so it is more like the first sentence of Manhattan (cocktail)... using "A" instead of "The". No opinion on the Metalergical Lab. Blueboar (talk) 17:36, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'm OK either way on "A" vs "The" there. Feel free to change it if you care. Dicklyon (talk) 20:04, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- On second thought, I think "A" doesn't work with "classic" in there. So, "A X is a cocktail made with ... " or "The X is a classic cocktail, ..." Dicklyon (talk) 20:07, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- I felt almost sure that it was in WP:LEADSENTENCE somewhere, but found I was mistaken. I certainly remember seeing it corrected in the early days. "A spade is a tool..." is pretty much indisputable, and that form should be used where possible if it is natural. However, a first sentence opening "Jack the Ripper is the best known name given to an unidentified serial killer..." can also be the best option. William Avery (talk) 18:15, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- And would you then italicize if referring to the name Jack the Ripper? Dicklyon (talk) 20:04, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- Personally I'd prefer quotes. The actual article only bolds it. William Avery (talk) 21:13, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- And would you then italicize if referring to the name Jack the Ripper? Dicklyon (talk) 20:04, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with the change made at the Jack Rose (cocktail) article as an improvement and with Blueboar's "use a not the" suggestion for that sort of case). Most cases of "The [Title] is the name of" or "[Title] is a term for" constructions are pointless excess verbiage, of the same class as "in order to" instead of just "to". Sometimes these constructions actually need to be used, however, especially when the term is common but a misnomer, biased, or dubious in the real world, so if we said something about this in MoS, we'd need to allow for exceptions, say why there would be some, and gives examples. One is at Bigfoot: "Bigfoot (also known as Sasquatch) is the name given to a mythological ...". I would suggest that this isn't really quite a case of the use–mention distinction, but a use that is being qualified, and the way we do that in English just happens to be pretty much the same way we handle a words as words mention, without quite really being one. The subject of the sentence really is Bigfoot, not the word Bigfoot. That is, the lead doesn't continue "... creature, and was first introduced in 1892 as Big-foot. The etymology of the word is...". It's not a WP:DICDEF. Contrast this lead with that at Fuck, which really is about a word as a word, and italicizes it.
I contend such distinctions very often, especially in articles on alleged new animal breeds (most of which are really landrace populations, and some in-bred pets a few people are trying to promote for profit, often with multiple names. To make up an example (and thus avoid picking on a particular article), one of them might start: "Quux dog is a name advanced by the Baz Kennel Association (BKA) for a variety of dog originally found in Shangrila. The local landrace population is referred to as fnordu in Shangrilese. It is a large herding dog, and [descriptive stuff here]. Starting in 2005, Western breeders in Idaho and New South Wales have been working to develop a standardized breed from imported Shangrilese specimens. The BKA recognizes these selectively bred dogs under the name Quux in the breed registry's "Experimental" category, but no other registries recognize either the Western or original dogs as a breed." Something to that effect. The original PoV-pushing version might have read something like "The Quux dog or 'Fnordu' is a breed of herding dog from Shangrila. It is [description]." I restructure the material to be more factual and to avoid implying questionable assertions about breed status, even to remove the "The [Name]" construction that implies that the population is singular, unique, and universally recognized as such. This kind of cleanup comes up frequently with "designer crossbreeds" being aggressively promoted as "new breeds" but which are not; there's no such thing as "the" labradoodle, and it is not a proper name; there are just labradoodles (or a labradoodle, in the singular, per Blueboar's comment about a vs. the, above).
Anyway, the point is that sometimes less direct wording is necessary, but its not necessary to italicize (or quote), as words-as-words, any alternative names that are not being approached as linguistic material. Using either style may be confusing, especially when used with proper names; the italics are easily mistaken for emphasis or the marking of a foreign term, and quotes are apt to be inferred as "so-called" scare-quoting. I'd make an exception for nicknames and epithets like "Jack the Ripper"; those conventionally go in quotation marks anyway: Dwayne "the Rock" Johnson. See, e.g., Black Dahlia, which gets it just right. There's no need to mark up something like Bigfoot or Jack Rose with quotes or italics, except later in the piece: "The name Jack Rose derives from ...".
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 02:03, 25 April 2016 (UTC)- Wow, it sounds like you've really thought this out, as usual. Thanks for all that. But shouldn't we have a short version at least, with a few lead examples, in the MOS some place, such as at WP:LEADSENTENCE? Dicklyon (talk) 02:12, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
Neutral notification of move discussion
There is a discussion underway to move the article Martin Luther King, Jr. Day (with a single comma) to Martin Luther King Jr. Day. Please share your opinion on the matter at Talk:Martin Luther King, Jr. Day#Requested move 22 April 2016. Thank you. Dicklyon (talk) 03:48, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
Arbitrary changes of style, notation, formatting and convention
In the Manual of Style we have a section National varieties of English with a shortcut (MOS:ENGVAR), which is useful to cite when reverting edits that arbitrarily change the variant of English used.
Regarding other style options we have the third paragraph of the lead (...editors should not change an article from one of those styles to another without a good reason....), and also a link to an Arbcom decision regarding changing date notation between BC/AD and BCE/CE. This is less easy to cite. So could we have a section that proscribes arbitrary changes of style - with a handy shortcut?
The sort of style changes I have in mind include changing between and [7] and between ordinary brackets and square brackets [8] and between LaTeX and HTML (without consultation or consensus). --catslash (talk) 21:23, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- It's important to remember that the only reason we have ENGVAR (and MOS:CITEVAR, and MOS:DATEVAR) is to suggest (these are just guidelines, remember) some exceptions that consensus may agree we should make to WP:EDITING policy (which otherwise allows, even encourages, editors to edit as they see fit, constructively). These three very particular kinds of changes so frequently lead to intractable debate that it's better for the community and the project if people just stop changing from British to American English (etc.), stop flipping date styles around, and stop radically changing citation styles, without very good reasons. The amount of dispute those three cause is directly disruptive. That's not the case with minor squabbles over exponent formatting, or any of the other 1,000 or so style choices we're faced with. They're almost always resolvable with an article-level talk page discussion, and when not can be RfCed on this page for more general application (and often "codification" of a clearly preferred result in MoS or one of its subpages; that's how much of MoS was organically generated).
At this point, I'm not sure how we could craft a general rule – if consensus actually wanted one, which does not appear to be the case – that wouldn't be abused by WP:OWNers to WP:GAME everyone half to death. The most likely and negative result of it would be that someone who favors a non-encyclopedic style (e.g. all the comma abandonment that is common in news writing – In 2016 David Bowie died of cancer) would feel empowered to fight forever to prevent anyone else improving the prose and formatting. If some particular mathematical styles should be left alone, because people fight endlessly about them, project-wide, that might be a rationale for a "MOS:MATHVAR", but I don't see any evidence the problem is widespread enough to warrant this. I don't see any discussion at Talk:Triple product indicating intractable dispute about the math formatting edit you use an example of a problem, for example. Where there's no smoke, there's probably no fire. Anyway, there is no "consultation" process, and consensus is not required to make a change (consensus is required for a change to stick). "That wasn't discussed first" is not a real revert rationale; "this is problematic because [legitimate reason here], see discussion on talk page" is a real rationale.
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:48, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Today's featured article/April 28, 2016
Does anyone have a problem with "would" in "Their descendants would continue to inhabit Pitcairn into the 21st century" or with "just" in "just one surviving mutineer"? I've been told they don't sound right to BrE ears. - Dank (push to talk) 12:05, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- No problem for my British English ears. The "would" I can find no possible problem with. Conceivably H. W. Fowler might have considered the "just one" as somewhat transatlantic, but we have moved on. William Avery (talk) 12:31, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
USA all the way
I see no good reason for the stricture on this abbreviation. It isn't the only "United States" in the world or even in North America, and the abbreviation is not rare in respectable publications. U.S.A. All the Way - Walter Kirn, nytimes.com. Jim.henderson (talk) 13:20, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- I've always found the injunction to use "US" not "USA" odd, particularly since the main taxonomic databases I use in preparing articles (e.g. the World Checklist of Selected Plant Families, GRIN Taxonomy, the World Spider Catalog) all use the three letter abbreviation, with or without full stops (yes, I'm British). That's presumably why, to give just two of many, many examples that could be given, the multipage List of Araneidae species and the List of Lilium species use "USA" not "US". Peter coxhead (talk) 15:20, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
- My only comment would be that this should not be changed without a more formal RfC consensus to change it. If you wish to pursue this, you might as well get that RfC started. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:35, 27 April 2016 (UTC)