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FAC/EmRata
FAC/EmRata | |
Sorry, didn't mean to mansplain. I hope we won't get to where you'll never speak to me again! GRuban (talk) 20:32, 1 April 2016 (UTC) |
- Ha, ha. Thank you, GRuban. I managed to avoid using that word, but yes, that's what it felt like. But it really wasn't directed at you anyway. Thanks again. SarahSV (talk) 21:27, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- If you could respond to my 15:28, 7 April 2016 (UTC) query at FAC3, that would be great.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:01, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
Style update
FYI. 166.176.59.66 (talk) 07:01, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Very interesting, thanks for letting me know. Means I don't have to keep wondering how to write these things. SarahSV (talk) 00:57, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
A barnstar for you!
The Barnstar of Diplomacy | |
For calling me out with this edit, but doing so diplomatically and with WP:AGF in mind. Also, for generally being an awesome contributor to our community, and I hope the long conversations about creating more receptive places within our community pan out. Sadads (talk) 13:31, 4 April 2016 (UTC) |
- Many thanks, Sadads. I know you didn't mean anything by it, by the way. Thanks for taking it so well. SarahSV (talk) 01:28, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- I wasn't at all worried by it: I figured, I see you work often enough, but rarely have an opportunity to give you a Barnstar :) I am trying to be a good ally, when I can: and my teaching background (I taught 5 sections of diversity focused freshman writing course during grad school), makes me one of the more prepared people in this community for pointing out these kinds of issues -- but 5 sections of a diversity focused course, and the training to teach it are not what I would call the best training for offering advice for users that stumble into these kinds of issues. I wish my criticism had been better received.... Sadads (talk) 01:41, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
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- It's great that you're willing to be an ally. I don't know whether you know anything about sport and Associated Football. An issue I've just noticed is that women football (soccer) players in Scotland aren't getting articles because they're not professional; men are, but women aren't, and WP:NFOOTY (the notability guideline) favours professionals. But we don't do that with all other sports. For example, WP:NHOCKEY:
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- "Played one or more games in an amateur league considered, through lack of a professional league, the highest level of competition extant."
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- So that seems unfair. Nfitz first raised it, and it has become an issue at AN/I (Accusations of misogyny), and at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brogan Hay. Ideally WP:NFOOTY would be changed. If you have no time or inclination to get involved, by the way, please don't feel you have to. I often groan when I see these things, because I want to spend less time here but feel I have to say something, so I don't want to pass that sinking feeling to anyone else. :) SarahSV (talk) 01:56, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Ah the sports drama! I really never fully understand how the Notability guidelines for sports get formed -- they tend to be small groups of people, with very little broader community perspective -- huge fans, no real contextual knowledge. I probably am not going to wade into that -- looks like some sane voices are working on it at ANI. The AFD is firmly in the keep. Call me in on anything culture or history related! I find I share a more common language and ability/passion to argue through those issues. I will keep an eye on supporting other stuff too. Mind if I watch your talk page?
- In the meantime, I am feeling gnomish: you might have fun with: https://tools.wmflabs.org/citationhunt/en/ Fixing {{cn}}s never got so easy! Sadads (talk) 23:08, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- So that seems unfair. Nfitz first raised it, and it has become an issue at AN/I (Accusations of misogyny), and at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brogan Hay. Ideally WP:NFOOTY would be changed. If you have no time or inclination to get involved, by the way, please don't feel you have to. I often groan when I see these things, because I want to spend less time here but feel I have to say something, so I don't want to pass that sinking feeling to anyone else. :) SarahSV (talk) 01:56, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
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ANI
Just curious, if you can close one or two sections, why can't you close the whole thing down? I know you've participated, but not in such as way that you'd be considered 'involved'. Plus there is an consensus at the bottom for closure. (also, why haven't any other admins shut this down yet?) Anyways, Thanks - theWOLFchild 03:19, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Done. It took some time to read through it all. SarahSV (talk) 04:30, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you Sarah. I sure that was quite a chore. Cheers - theWOLFchild 05:39, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
How to improve cite templates
Hi, User:Wikid77 here. I was on wikibreak for about 2 years and returned to see cite templates stuck on red-error messages for dates (all years before AD 100?) in 18,000 pages, and now flagging the language "Ancient Greek" as a check-language issue. I think more RfCs are needed to confirm the users want easier cites, with fewer restrictions, not more errors. Example:
- {{cite book |author=Cleopatra VII |title=Stuff |date=36 BCE |language=[[Koine Greek]]}} shows:
Cleopatra VII (36 BCE). Stuff (in Koine Greek). Check date values in:|date=
(help)
Meanwhile, the French WP cite templates (see: fr:Template:Ouvrage) for 5 years have allowed title-notes as parameter "description=" (displayed after "titre=" title) and now autofix dates, without error msgs, such as changing American "June 7, 2015" into typical French "7 juin 2015" no complaints. I was planning to create a separate RfC page for each cite problem (date error, language, title description, etc.). However, should I combine all major wp:CS1 cite topics into a single RfC page or split as multiple RfCs? No hurry, I've been planning this for months. -Wikid77 (talk) 12:41, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
Sportswomen Notability
Hi Sarah, thought I would move this off the ANI page to your talk page as it was just you and me discussing this and it was kind of in the middle of a tangentially related discussion. Feel free to ping anyone else though whom you think would want to join in.
- I agree that this is a good opportunity to fix WP:NFOOTY to make sure it's written in a way that does not discriminate against women in football. See Wikipedia:Writing about women:
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Women comprise between 8.5 and 16.1 percent of editors on the English Wikipedia.[1] This means that most articles are written by men, as are most of the content policies, including the notability and referencing policies. Those policies in turn determine which articles about women can be hosted, and frame many of the ways in which they are written.
- LauraHale has worked hard to promote women in sport. She hasn't edited here since January, but I'm pinging her anyway in case she has thoughts about how to change the guideline. SarahSV (talk) 00:20, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- For ice hockey (WP:NHOCKEY), we allow "Played one or more games in an amateur league considered, through lack of a professional league, the highest level of competition extant." That's the situation with Brogan Hay. As I understand it, she's playing at the highest level at which she can play in Scotland, but there is no professional level for women there. So we ought to add that caveat to WP:NFOOTY. SarahSV (talk) 02:18, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- My question would be how would this be applied across football in general? I presume you are not suggesting creating a bias towards women's articles by imposing a lower level of notability based solely on gender? Are you suggesting that NFOOTY be amended to state that all players in a given country's top league are presumed notable?
- The problem with that would be the vast number of non-notable male footballers who would suddenly fit this criterion, not to mention non-notable female footballers, all of whom play in very minor leagues which attract very little attention.
- If the desire is to see more articles on women, then I would suggest editors start on the large number of missing articles for women who have played senior international football, who pass NFOOTY as is but do currently have an article and thereby begin to solve this problem top down not bottom up. And let's not get started on the poor state of articles on women's football clubs, national teams and competitions.
- If the desire is to see more articles on women in a given league, i.e. Scotland in this instance, surely GNG is the best root to follow. Again this solves the problem from a top down pov by ensuring that articles are created on the most notable female footballers first before there is any need to alter a subject specific guideline.
- I am more than happy to get in a discussion on how to make football articles more inclusive, but I am adamant that any changes made must be applicable to all footballers, not simply female footballers and that the risk of a flood of hitherto non-notable players of either gender may suddenly appear.
- However, I would be interested to see, particularly if a wider audience beyond the usual WP:FOOTY editors can be engaged, if a consensus can be reached that players from a country's top division are deemed notable regardless of gender. That somewhat blunt approach seems to me to be the only way to resolve this issue in a way that provides clarity on notability to even the most inexperienced of editors and allows the inclusion of more articles on female footballers without creating a positive bias. Fenix down (talk) 07:43, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Hi Fenix, I'm not sure what you mean by applying any new suggestion across football in general. My suggestion is that WP:NFOOTY follow WP:NHOCKEY, and add a clause that says something like:
- "Played one or more games in an amateur league that is the highest level of competition available because of the lack of a professional league."
- Alternatively, NFOOTY could follow WP:NRU (for Rugby Union), which cites women, and say something like:
- "Or has played one or more games at the highest level of competition available in women's football in her country."
- SarahSV (talk) 21:23, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- I see other sections on that page cite women; e.g. WP:NBASKETBALL (though the Women's National Basketball Association is professional); WP:NBOX (mentions women and amateur boxers); and WP:NCYCLING. It should be easy enough to add a sentence to NFOOTY that accommodates what happens in the women's game. SarahSV (talk) 00:03, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- If I understand what you are saying above, you would want to include a specific comment regarding women's football that read something like, "female players who have not played senior international football are considered notable if they have participated in a countries top league". My first response to you would be, why would you not look to change NFOOTY in total rather than simply adding a separate, lower level of notability for women.
- Firstly, from the perspective of logic your suggestion is fundamentally flawed. There is undeniably an issue with gender bias on WP, not just sports, but I am not sure that will be solved by essentially creating the opposite bias by lowering the notability requirements for women in a given field simply to allow the creation of more articles. Either the notability requirements of NFOOTY are too high in general and need to be lowered across the board which would allow the creation of articles for players regardless of gender who have played in country's top league, or they are not and the focus for notability remains squarely with GNG.
- Secondly, this creates a knock on effect whereby female players in many countries are essentially notable as long as play in their top league whereas their male counterparts are not unless they fulfill stricter criteria. Whilst this might not be an issue in some sports, the fact that there is significant organised competition in essentially every country in the world for football means that this fundamentally won't work. For example it would mean that every female player in this league was notable, whereas in the men's league only those who had played senior international football would be, whereas in reality there are probably no non-international level Barbadian footballers notable enough for their own article regardless of gender. This is why I think your proposal to adopt an element of NHOCKEY just wouldn't work, whether applied to women or to all players.
- Thirdly, and I think this is most important point in many ways is the need to manage other editors! WP:FOOTY can be quite curmudgeonly and process-orientated and I am not sure much traction would be gained by suggesting a lower level of notability for women. I'm not sure what a solution to this would be though, the only one I have bar just impressing upon people that all players have to fulfill GNG regardless of level (which they do anyway), is to use criterion 1 from NHOCKEY, namely: "Played one or more games in an existing or defunct top professional league" in addition to the current FPL criterion to cover lower tiers in countries which would prevent a flood of essentially non-notable players from lower divisions with some degree of professionalism.
- This would require an expansion of WP:FPL to cover all leagues, male and female that can be sourced as being professional, not fully professional, (whilst acknowledging that there will be some that contain an element of semi-professionalism but that acceptance of this is beneficial for the greater good). This would however still limit the number of women's leagues that provide inherent notability to players, but it would see a substantial expansion and equality in notability by gender whilst still acknowledging that it is a demonstrable fact that women's football receives globally less coverage than the men's game and is therefore less notable and that it is not WP's job to artificially attempt to correct this.
- Finally a few comments on the other notability guidelines you note that mention women.
- WP:NHOCKEY - as noted above, the much greater popularity of football globally means that criterion 2 is simply unworkable, thousands of people would suddenly be presumed notable despite having received essentially no substantial coverage. We would be forced to fall back on GNG in virtually every case making the subject specific guideline worthless.
- WP:NRU - I think actually you have misread this guideline. The mention of women in criterion one is made solely to illustrate that no woman can fulfill it as women's teams are not ranked in the same way. This is actually similar notability guideline to NFOOTY, but is more restrictive as NFOOTY presumes any woman who has played a senior international match to be notable regardless of the competition or ranking of the team.
- WP:NHOOPS - focuses solely on "professional" competition, not fully professional. Could be used as part of a justification to tweak NFOOTY to a similar rationale.
- WP:NBOX - this differentiates between men and women because there are different governing bodies for men and women. There are not for football, so I'm not sure this is relevant in this context. Beyond this distinction men and women are treated the same for notability purposes.
- WP:NCYC - again this differentiates between men and women essentially because the UCI World Tour is a men only competition. I don't see any other material difference between the men and women's criteria. That said, like the other guidelines you note, I think it is useful that gender is specifically addressed.
- Sorry for the long response, I hope you had the energy to read it. I wrote it because I do think that this is something that needs to be addressed, but that it will be something that will be difficult to achieve. I think if any change is made it will be essential to have involvement from people like you and a wider involvement outside of WP:FOOTY in general. Fenix down (talk) 09:52, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
Historicity of Jesus
Hi Sarah. I am writing something about this as we speak, and was looking for Pauline references to Jesus. Sources for the historicity of Jesus was a good start, and quite useful. But nowhere can I find a reference to 1 Corinthians 15:4 'he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures'. This is pretty famous because I am sure it is the only reference by Paul to the resurrection. I am intrigued by why it is not in an article about the historicity of Jesus. I expect because, if we regard resurrection as impossible, it cannot possibly be historical. But then later in that article it says 'Elements whose historical authenticity is disputed include the two accounts of the Nativity of Jesus, the miraculous events including the resurrection, and certain details about the crucifixion', so why isn't the well-known reference in Corinthians 15:4 included with a caveat that the historicity of the resurrection is disputed (as it is, by many)? And of course if the resurrection did occur, it would surely be 'historical'. But I won't touch the article in case it sparks off some nuclear catastrophe. Peter Damian (talk) 19:45, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, Peter, it's not something I can help with. You could ask the editor who created the sources article. SarahSV (talk) 17:33, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- It was more for your entertainment - it appealed to my sense of the absurd. Hope you are well. Peter Damian (talk) 17:53, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
Coffee
There have been reverts. Extend PC or upgrade to semi? --George Ho (talk) 00:18, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Hi George, I've semi-protected. SarahSV (talk) 17:39, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
Quoted in ArbCom evidence
Hi... I've submitted evidence to the Wikicology ArbCom case in which I have quoted you from ANI because I am commenting on Wikicology's response. I thought I should let you know as a courtesy. Cheers. EdChem (talk) 14:13, 9 April 2016 (UTC)