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Noticeboard archives
Contents
- 1 Personal attacks on article talk pages (Crimea annexation, Aleksandr Dugin)
- 2 Springee campaigning
- 3 John Carter continuing to post on my talk page despite repeated warnings not to
- 4 Multiple problems with editor Cedric tsan cantonais
- 5 Proposal for interaction ban with User:Winkelvi
- 6 YuHuw's-endless disruptive edit war against the consensus:
- 7 More WP:BATTLEGROUND from Jytdog at Berylliosis
- 8 178.217.194.100's long-term edit warring and continued addition of unsourced statistics
- 9 James J. Lambden is wikistalking me.
- 10 Panama Papers
- 11 Accusations of misogyny
- 12 Dicklyon and his treatment on commas before Jr/Sr
- 13 Continuous disruptive editing by Shhhhwwww!! even after third block
- 14 Charlene McMann
- 15 Ownership of Mann Mayal
- 16 Removal of comments
- 17 Dicklyon and his disruptive "war on commas"
- 18 Persistent adding of unsourced puffery on page Frederick Achom
- 19 Global IP rangeblock
- 20 Continued disruption from previously banned IP editor "Claudia"
- 21 European Graduate School - the return of Claudioalv
- 22 Automotive IP user
- 23 Repeated recreation of deleted article
- 24 IP vandal editing
- 25 Repeated personal attacks and baseless accusations made by Legacypac
- 26 DrChrissy
- 27 Multiple Personal Attacks by User:Garuk Gar, one of the many many many socks of User:Cow Cleaner 5000.
- 28 IP not making productive edits at templates
- 29 82.30.110.20 impersonating another editor
- 30 Block reviews
- 31 Edit War at WP:NPA
- 32 Incivility and disruptive behavior by Lugnuts
- 33 Wtshymanski reverting IP editors in breach of editing restrictions
- 34 MaranoFan and WP:CIR issues
- 35 Another Charlene McMann sock?
- 36 Copyright violations by CJojoC
- 37 Suspect user User:Shonell Thakker of paid editing
- 38 Please unprotect Template:Inflation/UK/dataset
- 39 Reporting Siredejoinville for disseminating false information, probable conflict of interest, and for hoaxes
Personal attacks on article talk pages (Crimea annexation, Aleksandr Dugin)
In a current discussion with myself and others at Talk:Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation, User:Iryna Harpy made a post [1] which said very little about specific content questions, but instead accused several other WP users — User:Tobby72, User:Haberstr, and User:Moscow Connection — of "POV pushing" , "disruptive editing" , and presenting arguments with "no good faith" .
I contacted Iryna about this on her user page, sending copies to each of the users she had named [2]. Iryna's response was that she found my message "bizarre", she said I was using her user talk page to bully her, and she asked me not to message her user talk page again, except to notify her of a formal complaint. She did however clarify that she does not think Moscow Connection had engaged in disruptive editing or had lacked good faith, though she does think Moscow Connection had pushed POV. She regards her comments about the other two WP users, Tobby72 and Haberstr, as "legitimate criticism". [3]
I noticed a more extreme though less recent personal attack by Iryna Harpy on Talk:Aleksandr_Dugin (a somewhat related topic). There she accused another WP user of putting "pineapples up his arse, leafy side up, just to get his juices flowing" . [4] Iryna made that comment about 12 months ago, and it is still on that talk page right now (22:21, 22 March 2016) [5], it hasn't been removed or archived, although it is at present in a collapsable/expandable box.
Iryna is an experienced WP editor, who should know better than to misuse article talk pages in this way. Her actions suggest to me that she has a strong sense of WP:OWNERSHIP in relation to these pages, and wants to push away users who have different views regarding their content. Whatever her motive, the personal attacks she makes are not appropriate for article talk pages, because they don't contribute to civil content discussion. [Highlighting added March 25]. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 02:10, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- Those aren't "personal attacks", those are fairly accurate descriptions of these editors' editing practices. Tobby72 in particular has been driving people crazy with his slow motion edit war and attempts to insert text into these articles against consensus which has been going on for something like a year now.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:38, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- This section is a nonsense, and should be closed. Iryna is one of the few good faith editors capable of dealing with these articles. She might get frustrated sometimes, but that's a common feature to us all. Furthermore, if one is confronted by the type of disruption that is evident in this very AN/I thread, which is rooted in canvassing, one will inevitably let one's lips slip from time to time. Please shut this thread. RGloucester — ☎ 02:48, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
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- RGloucester, you say Iryna is "one of the few good faith editors capable of dealing with these articles" . What does your comment say about the others who have tried to deal with the articles, either by making edits or by commenting on the talk pages? Is Wikipedia still "the encyclopedia anyone can edit"? Or is it now "the encyclopedia which only a few good faith editors are capable of dealing with"? Kalidasa 777 (talk) 20:39, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
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- According to Wikipedia's Talk Page Guidelnes: "While the purpose of article talk pages is to discuss the content of articles, the purpose of user talk pages is to draw the attention or discuss the edits of a user." If Iryna had valid criticisms of the way Tobby72 and others have been editting, she should have put her criticisms on their user talk pages, where they would immediately see what was said, and not on the article talk page. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 03:16, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Stop it with the WP:WIKILAWYER. These users, whom you've been encouraging [6], were disrupting THESE articles hence it made perfect sense for Iryna to comment on THESE articles' talk pages.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:20, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
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- (edit conflict) As predicted on my talk page, the user fully intended to canvass in order to embark on a WP:HUNT, posting on Moscow Connection's talk page, on Tobby72's talk page, and on Haberstr's talk page. The most telling of these have been his/her communications with Haberstr on 21 March where s/he commended the editor stating "Lack of neutrality re Ukraine conflict: I agree with you that WP's coverage of the Ukraine conflict has a neutrality problem, and I respect your efforts to address this problem." in a bid to align himself/herself with other users who support his/her POV. Haberstr's response to the "cc" (or, let's start this hunt because WP:CRUSH doesn't seem to be working) makes for interesting reading in itself.
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- All of this ducking and diving in and out of ARBEE sanctioned articles, and WP:BAITing editors who are constantly working on them is going to elicit a WP:SPADE response eventually. Mind you, I have publicly apologised to Moscow Connection for tying him in with the other two. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:25, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Oh, and as an aside, while this ANI is being used to tie up editor and admin time, Haberstr is using his valuable time to keep edit warring the article's content. That's NPOV? Really? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:49, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Yes it is NPOV in my opinion. But you disagree, which I respect. Your comment simply illustrates that you don't respect others having a good faith disagreement with you, and you express that disrespect by getting angry and accusatory on talk pages and here. And that is exactly the problematic behavior that fellow editor Kalidasa has asked administrators to do something about. I think I can summarize your response to Kalidasa so far as "I don't understand what Kalidasa is getting at, and here, let me angrily express more assumption of bad faith to make sure everyone knows I don't get it."Haberstr (talk) 23:37, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Haberstr, you exhausted good faith on the part of other editors participating in these articles years ago. RGloucester — ☎ 23:42, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- Is it possible to stay on the Iryna Harpy behavior topic, and to stop the ad homimen attacks on me? If you have evidence put it on my user talk page.Haberstr (talk) 00:45, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Where no one will see it? Nah, I think this is the appropriate place for it, which is why I did provide the evidence below.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:38, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Then you will agree that it is appropriate also to remind editors that volunteer Marek, was banned for his pov-editing on Russia-related topics and is one its the most notorious POV-pushing disruptive editors on Wikipedia. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:52, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Where no one will see it? Nah, I think this is the appropriate place for it, which is why I did provide the evidence below.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:38, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Is it possible to stay on the Iryna Harpy behavior topic, and to stop the ad homimen attacks on me? If you have evidence put it on my user talk page.Haberstr (talk) 00:45, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Haberstr, you exhausted good faith on the part of other editors participating in these articles years ago. RGloucester — ☎ 23:42, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Yes it is NPOV in my opinion. But you disagree, which I respect. Your comment simply illustrates that you don't respect others having a good faith disagreement with you, and you express that disrespect by getting angry and accusatory on talk pages and here. And that is exactly the problematic behavior that fellow editor Kalidasa has asked administrators to do something about. I think I can summarize your response to Kalidasa so far as "I don't understand what Kalidasa is getting at, and here, let me angrily express more assumption of bad faith to make sure everyone knows I don't get it."Haberstr (talk) 23:37, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
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- What Iryna Harpy said in that post ([7]) is reprehensible but utterly routine in my experience with her. In response to Harpy’s allegations: I engage in good faith NPOV editing. My aim is to create Wikipedia Ukraine/Russia NPOV entries, i.e., entries that respect the distinction between fact and allegation and are at least inclusive of the two main ‘Cold War II’ perspectives. I hate disruptive editing and resist it as best I can.Haberstr (talk) 05:37, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- Here are other examples of Harpy’s bullying and threatening language, from the last 12 months of the Crimea Annexation talk page (other examples are at other Ukraine-related pages). All of these were in response to what I think outside editors would regard as polite-or-neutral-in-tone arguments by other editors for RS-based edits that they believed were NPOV: [8] “For the last couple of years, Tobby72 has been POV pushing the same content over and over and over and over and over against consensus. Personally, I've had all I can take of his disruptive editing and intentional gaming.” 05:05, 15 March 2016; [9] “Haberstr, you're at it again. Drop it …” 22:05, 26 January 2016; [21:44, 2 February 2016] “Wow, I'm sincerely impressed by your continuing POV pushing about how terrific the RF really is, and how much every citizen loves 'em. Drop the propaganda, pleaaassseee.”; [10] “Stop wasting our time. How many times are you intending to incriminate yourself by gaming?” 05:09, 1 April 2015, [11] “Any further envelope-pushing will be understood as WP:POINTy. Please familiarise yourself with this guideline, Tosha, as it is just a hair's breadth from tendentious editing behaviour.” 04:26, 21 March 2015; [12] “…both you and Mobolo and disruptive, tendentious editors. … How can it be an ad hominem attack when the nature of your continuous POV pushing for unencyclopaedic information - which contradicts RS and is designed to promote spurious content - is antithetical to what the project stands for? As editors, you are not even vaguely neutral, and neither of you can be extricated from the biased, unbalanced content you push. … it's about time you realised that your continuous and blatant lack of civility can't be disguised by a dusting of civil POV pushing. In fact, we have huge tracts here … demonstrating your relentless bad faith disruption.” (Highlighting added 25 March) 05:09, 25 March 2015 Haberstr (talk) 05:37, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- Looking over some of the edits, this is prime territory for WP:BOOMERANG. None of Iryna's comments go beyond identification of non-neutral edits. Meanwhile, repeated non-neutral edits in an area subject to discretionary sanctions and an attempt to force out dissenting editors through coordinated action (i.e. canvassing for an ANI) are serious issues. ~ RobTalk 05:59, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Not sure if this statement is about User:Haberstr or User:Kalidasa 777. Yes, Kalidasa has definitely engaged in disruptive canvassing in this instance. In the case of Haberstr, the problem is compound because:
- 1. The user has already been warned previously about disruptive canvassing here and here
- 2. Previously warned about making controversial, POV, moves and the purposefully salt-ing the redirects so that the moves could not be undone without admin intervention here and here
- 3. Has been previously warned multiple times about starting edit wars and edit warring against multiple editors here and here and here. This includes purposefully starting edit wars in the hope of getting an article protected to "their" version [13] [14]
- 4. Has been previously warned about making personal attacks and using partisan language here
- 5. Haberstr was the subject of this WP:AE report which was closed with no action only because it went stale, although three of the commenting admins recommended some form of topic ban (presumably from Russia and Ukraine related topics).
- Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:37, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- I don't assume you are attempting to change the focus of discussion away from an incident report regarding Iryna Harpy's alleged personal attacks, but that is in fact what your comment does. Please stay on topic, which is not my past. Nonetheless, since you have made allegations and claims against me, I will briefly respond: In sum, we have "closed with no action ..." and your recitation of a small group of 'pro-Ukraine' editors' massive number of 'warnings' against me, based completely on assuming bad faith.
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- We all really need to stop assuming other editors are editing in bad faith or assuming other editors are being "disruptive," and then attacking them on the Talk Page, as Iryna has been doing repeatedly for years. Such accusations make Talk Pages toxic and off-putting places, not just for the person over and over again so accused, but also for all newbies and potential newbies who might've wanted to participate in a welcoming editing environment. Regarding Ukraine-related articles specifically, I think it is obvious there is honest disagreement on the meaning of NPOV and POV from the perspectives of the two sides of the (unintentional but inevitable) edit wars regarding Ukraine-related Wikipedia entries. There also seems to be good faith disagreement regarding the meaning of consensus, which is also the basis of many angry/rude/dismissive attacks, nearly always by the 'pro-Ukraine' side (including Marek and Iryna) against the other side of the debate. Based on a close reading and good faith understanding of WP:CONS, and on the long-standing and failed efforts to find consensus, I don't believe there is consensus on the array of Ukraine-related Wikipedia entries where edit wars unfortunately occur. It is a difficult situation but we nonetheless should be civil and assume good faith.Haberstr (talk) 08:18, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- "We all really need to stop assuming other editors are editing in bad faith or assuming other editors are being "disruptive,"" - you mean like when you went around accusing everyone who disagreed with you (even Russian editors) of "hating Russia"? And the reason edit wars constantly flare up on these articles is because you and some of your buddies just can't stop beating WP:DEADHORSE and your way of engagement is WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. You're complaints boil down to "why won't they let me push my pov in peace! That's so unjust!" which is why this keeps coming up again and again.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:58, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- Marek's charges are all false, and he notably has provided no evidence for them. Will he ever actually be on topic. His comments so far have all been off topic. If he feels that Iryna has not been assuming bad faith, why not simply say that, and provide evidence and support for that opinion? I think my first comment on Iryna above, where I've quoted repeated instances where she seemed to me to be assuming bad faith, can serve as a rough model for him.Haberstr (talk) 23:43, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- "Marek's charges are all false, and he notably has provided no evidence for them." - ahem: [15]. Who do you think the closing comment - "participants are reminded that Wikipedia is not a battleground and your fellow Wikipedians are most likely not intelligence operatives" - was directed at? Jimbo Wales? I don't think so.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:06, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- You are accusing me of the following:you went around accusing everyone who disagreed with you (even Russian editors) of "hating Russia" and you have provided no evidence. Please retract the false accusation and apologize. The closing comment was directed at all participants, which included you and Iryna. Please comply with that request. Haberstr (talk) 01:28, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- "Marek's charges are all false, and he notably has provided no evidence for them." - ahem: [15]. Who do you think the closing comment - "participants are reminded that Wikipedia is not a battleground and your fellow Wikipedians are most likely not intelligence operatives" - was directed at? Jimbo Wales? I don't think so.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:06, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Marek's charges are all false, and he notably has provided no evidence for them. Will he ever actually be on topic. His comments so far have all been off topic. If he feels that Iryna has not been assuming bad faith, why not simply say that, and provide evidence and support for that opinion? I think my first comment on Iryna above, where I've quoted repeated instances where she seemed to me to be assuming bad faith, can serve as a rough model for him.Haberstr (talk) 23:43, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- "We all really need to stop assuming other editors are editing in bad faith or assuming other editors are being "disruptive,"" - you mean like when you went around accusing everyone who disagreed with you (even Russian editors) of "hating Russia"? And the reason edit wars constantly flare up on these articles is because you and some of your buddies just can't stop beating WP:DEADHORSE and your way of engagement is WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. You're complaints boil down to "why won't they let me push my pov in peace! That's so unjust!" which is why this keeps coming up again and again.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:58, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- We all really need to stop assuming other editors are editing in bad faith or assuming other editors are being "disruptive," and then attacking them on the Talk Page, as Iryna has been doing repeatedly for years. Such accusations make Talk Pages toxic and off-putting places, not just for the person over and over again so accused, but also for all newbies and potential newbies who might've wanted to participate in a welcoming editing environment. Regarding Ukraine-related articles specifically, I think it is obvious there is honest disagreement on the meaning of NPOV and POV from the perspectives of the two sides of the (unintentional but inevitable) edit wars regarding Ukraine-related Wikipedia entries. There also seems to be good faith disagreement regarding the meaning of consensus, which is also the basis of many angry/rude/dismissive attacks, nearly always by the 'pro-Ukraine' side (including Marek and Iryna) against the other side of the debate. Based on a close reading and good faith understanding of WP:CONS, and on the long-standing and failed efforts to find consensus, I don't believe there is consensus on the array of Ukraine-related Wikipedia entries where edit wars unfortunately occur. It is a difficult situation but we nonetheless should be civil and assume good faith.Haberstr (talk) 08:18, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
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Reply to the counter-charge of "canvassing". I find it difficult to take this seriously, but it has been raised by a number of wikipedia users (Iryna, RGloucester, and Marek), and Rob has indicated that he takes it seriously, so I'll briefly reply. Yes, I put a message on the user talk page of User:Haberstr, expressing approval of some of his work. And, as I've already mentioned, I alerted User:Haberstr, User:Tobby72, and User:Moscow Connection to the fact that their editing had been attacked on an article talk page. I also informed them (and Iryna) about this AN/I... Aren't these the sort of matters which user talk pages are for?? Am I missing something here? Kalidasa 777 (talk) 07:54, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
Do Iryna's comments go beyond identification of non-neutral edits? @ Rob Please take another look at the diffs I've already presented. The first, on the Crimea article talk page is a generalised attack on 3 WP users. It states that they've been engaged in dispute about the article for a long period, during which "no good faith argument" was ever presented by them...[16] Iryna has already admitted that her comments in relation to at least one of these users, User:Moscow Connection , was unwarranted. The other is her statement on the Aleksandr Dugin article talk page about the user who she says has "pineapples up his arse" .[17] A civil comment?? Kalidasa 777 (talk) 08:13, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Kalidasa 777: Let's take a look at how honest you're being about the comment on the Dugan talk page, shall we? This is the actual context in which I expressed myself in December of 2014 when the bio was inundated by 'interested' WP:SOCKS, WP:SPA's, WP:POVers from both the pro-Ukrainian and pro-Russian sides, as well as multiple IP's crippling the article and WP:SHOUTing on the talk page. Yes, the section got heated with regular users starting to loose their cool... which is why I suggested collapsing it (and did so). Such is the way with high traffic articles when the annexation of Crimea was still fresh, and the war in Donbass very, very fresh in an encyclopaedia that anyone can edit and certainly does... relentlessly and abusively... across a multitude of related articles. Now, this is the editor who started the thread. So is this, and this. Are you getting the picture? - Have disposable accounts, will act as agent provocateur. Please desist from WP:CHERRYPICKing through my editing history. As I already explained to you on my talk page, I understood your intention in posting that 'warning', and you've gone out of your way to make it come true. The fact that you are holding a personal WP:GRUDGE against me for disagreeing with you on both the Dugin article and the RF annexation of Crimea articles does not speak well to your editing priorities. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 09:32, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
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- The user you're talking about has acknowledged use of multiple accounts, and has given an explanation at User_talk:Major_Torp. If you thought they were using the accounts improperly, WP has processes for dealing with that. See WP:SPI. I do not see how that could justify what you said about the pineapple in the rectum [18], nor what you've just said about "agent provocateur" . Kalidasa 777 (talk) 10:00, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, you haven't followed the contributions. It was not the user who was self-identifying, it was another editor who was trailing this user's SOCKs (see this). The notifications on the user page were all placed there by the editor tracking this SPA here and here + here + here. This is not a valid use of alternative accounts, and the user was WP:NOTHERE but, rather, was only interested in WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, pushing their own POV, and harassing editors (here, here)... and not to forget all the fun of conducting 'discussions' with himself/herself (see this). Quixotic tirades on article talk pages ≠ the user really is a nice person who feels deeply outraged by the injustices of the world. In this case, the user's intent was to be as disruptive as possible in order to soapbox and get their own way which does equal agent provocateur. Who wastes the time of those who work on SPIs when the user is opening new accounts using their existing accounts? Also, please drop the pineapples: you've really done them to death. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:23, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- "The user you're talking about has acknowledged use of multiple accounts" - maybe so, but that doesn't change the fact that Iryna's characterization of that account by the phrase "Have disposable accounts, will act as agent provocateur" is exactly spot on. This in fact has been a recurring problem on this topic - throw away accounts that show up, start a lot of trouble, start edit wars, start drama board discussions demanding that they be allowed to push their POV and that anyone who disagrees with them be banned... oh wait... Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:13, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- The user you're talking about has acknowledged use of multiple accounts, and has given an explanation at User_talk:Major_Torp. If you thought they were using the accounts improperly, WP has processes for dealing with that. See WP:SPI. I do not see how that could justify what you said about the pineapple in the rectum [18], nor what you've just said about "agent provocateur" . Kalidasa 777 (talk) 10:00, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- I do not see the comment by Iryna as especially problematic. She tells about "dropping the stick". Yes, guys, pleased drop the stick. As about her claims of POV-pushing by other contributors, such claims are very common in this subject area and are usually true. Starting an ANI thread every time when someone claims "POV-pushing" is extremely disruptive. She mentioned three contributors, but only one of them (Haberstr) felt offended by her comment. Others said nothing here. Actually, I must agree with her that Haberstr does POV-pushing. Why exactly user Kalidasa777 started this battleground request on behalf of Haberstr is not entirely clear. Perhaps there is a reason, but I am not sure. My very best wishes (talk) 21:51, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Re: the statement "Others said nothing here". No longer true. See Tobby72's post below. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 23:10, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Perhaps there is a reason, yes. I started this ANI (not "on behalf of Haberstr" or anyone else) because Iryna's recent post doesn't just allege "POV pushing". Iryna wrote: "There has been no good faith argument brought to the table, and this is really starting to get way beyond another irritating bit of POV pushing." (emphasis added) [19] It was especially this denial of GF which I objected to, even though I wasn't one of the 3 WP users she named. That is why I took the step of complaining directly to Iryna on her user talk page. And her negative response left me no other option but to begin this ANI.
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- As Haberstr has mentioned, in an earlier posting to the Crimea article talk page, Iryna used the expression "relentless bad faith disruption" . [20] You really see nothing problematic in that sort of language, My very best? As for the expression "dropping the stick", I quite like it. Perhaps it's time for Iryna to do a little stick-dropping herself, by withdrawing her claims of bad faith? Kalidasa 777 (talk) 23:40, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- So, she responded you this on her talk page, which left you "no other option but to begin this ANI". OK, but prior to staring this ANI thread you suppose to ask her some details (or investigate yourself) if she was right or wrong about this, meaning you must be sure these two users were not in fact disruptive. Did you check what these users did on various pages? Why are you sure they were not in fact disruptive, exactly as she said? My very best wishes (talk) 00:08, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, I didn't need to establish whether she what she said on the article talk page is right or wrong. Because even if she had a valid complaint about behaviour of other editors, an article talk page is not the right place to put her complaint. See WP:TPG. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 00:51, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- The right place to complain about bad behavior of these editor would be WP:AE. However, instead of complaining about them on WP:AE, she simply said them: "hey people, please drop the stick and follow WP:Consensus", except that she said this using a slightly rougher language. That was commendable as something to actually minimize the conflicts and disruption. But instead of following her advice, you guys brought this to WP:ANI, which you know is not the place for resolving these disputes (the place is WP:AE). That is WP:Battle by you. My very best wishes (talk) 03:42, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, I didn't need to establish whether she what she said on the article talk page is right or wrong. Because even if she had a valid complaint about behaviour of other editors, an article talk page is not the right place to put her complaint. See WP:TPG. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 00:51, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- So, she responded you this on her talk page, which left you "no other option but to begin this ANI". OK, but prior to staring this ANI thread you suppose to ask her some details (or investigate yourself) if she was right or wrong about this, meaning you must be sure these two users were not in fact disruptive. Did you check what these users did on various pages? Why are you sure they were not in fact disruptive, exactly as she said? My very best wishes (talk) 00:08, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- As Haberstr has mentioned, in an earlier posting to the Crimea article talk page, Iryna used the expression "relentless bad faith disruption" . [20] You really see nothing problematic in that sort of language, My very best? As for the expression "dropping the stick", I quite like it. Perhaps it's time for Iryna to do a little stick-dropping herself, by withdrawing her claims of bad faith? Kalidasa 777 (talk) 23:40, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Not "you guys", My very. This ANI was started solely at my own initiative. The policy page WP:CIVIL says that serious incivility can be reported to ANI if the matter can't be resolved via the user talk page. Since this ANI discussion started, you're the first to suggest that it should go to AE instead. Maybe you're right though. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 05:09, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, I did not suggest to submit your request to WP:AE because your request is without merit: you suggest to punish a good contributor and protect more biased and disruptive contributors. I do agree, however, that people should not discuss each other on article talk pages, even when discussion is heated. They must definitely realize that. My very best wishes (talk) 14:20, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Not "you guys", My very. This ANI was started solely at my own initiative. The policy page WP:CIVIL says that serious incivility can be reported to ANI if the matter can't be resolved via the user talk page. Since this ANI discussion started, you're the first to suggest that it should go to AE instead. Maybe you're right though. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 05:09, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Really, Kalidasa 777? Hmm, have you taken a look at the article's edit history right now? Please elaborate on how this demonstrates any form of good faith editing on behalf on Haberstr. He is edit warring against multiple other editors, including editors who have not spoken up here or on the talk page (but who are aware of what the consensus is, and that this is pure edit warring behaviour on his behalf). Stop defending the indefensible and casting WP:ASPERSIONS as to my editing practices. You're persisting with this hunt despite having had it being demonstrated that you are way off base. I'm getting really tired of having to defend myself against someone who has made it clear that this is personal, and that they have an axe to grind. This has gotten to the point where even I'm going to say that you truly deserve a WP:BOOMERANG. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:04, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- There is no consensus, as is obvious from the edit history and the talk page history. I am not edit warring but simply inserting what I consider an NPOV and RS edit. As we all know, there are multiple long-standing and unresolved content disputes on various Ukraine-related pages. For years I and many others have attempted to discuss these civilly on the articles' talk pages, and have also made good faith edits based on our understanding of NPOV. Both sides in the current content dispute noted by Iryna I assume are making edits in good faith. Unfortunately Iryna does not, and this makes all of the Ukraine-related talk pages extremely toxic and extremely anti-Wikipedian experiences.Haberstr (talk) 01:10, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- In the case of Tobby72, "relentless bad faith disruption" is exactly what has happened. From the start of this article, he has kept inserting PoV content into the article hidden behind benign edit summaries. When he is reverted, he stops editting for a few days and comes back, inserting the same material. If a talk page discussion occurs, he ignores it, and keeps reinserting the material. He has been doing this for years. Just going back to 17 October 2015, as that is as far as I care to go right now, we see Tobby inserting a GfK poll, along with tons of pictures. The pictures, which are irrelevant to the article, are meant to hide the insertion of the GfK poll, the inclusion of which had been previously discussed and determined to be WP:UNDUE. When the content is removed again, per that previous discussion, Tobby comes back on 24 October to reinsert it with "relevant, cited" as the edit summary, which is totally nonsense. He is reverted again, of course. That's not enough for Tobby72, however. He comes back on 23 January 2016 to reinsert the content again, calling the removal "politically motivated", and claiming in his ES that he is restoring a "stable version", a clearly false statement on any basis. He comes back again on 3 March 2016 to do the same thing, and then again on 14 March. This is just slow motion edit-warring, nothing more than disruption. RGloucester — ☎ 00:11, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
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- THIS ^^^^^^^. Tobby72's behavior on this set of articles has been nothing short of ridiculous. The fact that someone can carry on a slow motion edit war against multiple editors for more than a year and who insists so blatantly on playing WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, and who uses misleading edit summaries to mask the fact that they're just trying to restore the same POV text over and over again (for over a year!) and THEN turns around and accuses others of "being disruptive" just takes the cake. It's an insult to the reader's intelligence it's so transparently dishonest.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:00, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- The good faith interpretation of Tobby72's behavior: 1) He/she does not believe there is a consensus. 2) He/she adds an RS source that he/she believes is NPOV in order to solve what he/she believes is the POV bias in a section of text. 3) He/she is frustrated by the very-long-term and repetitious attacks on his/her character and good faith and on what he/she believes are his/her efforts to improve various Wikipedia entries. This phenomenon has happened to several other good faith editors who have tried to edit the Ukraine-related articles in a way they believed was NPOV, but whose conception of NPOV conflicted with the beliefs of Iryna/Marek/Gloucester/Wishes, the first three of whom then attacked their character and good faith. I get where Tobby72 is coming from.Haberstr (talk) 01:52, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- THIS ^^^^^^^. Tobby72's behavior on this set of articles has been nothing short of ridiculous. The fact that someone can carry on a slow motion edit war against multiple editors for more than a year and who insists so blatantly on playing WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, and who uses misleading edit summaries to mask the fact that they're just trying to restore the same POV text over and over again (for over a year!) and THEN turns around and accuses others of "being disruptive" just takes the cake. It's an insult to the reader's intelligence it's so transparently dishonest.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:00, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Really, Kalidasa 777? Hmm, have you taken a look at the article's edit history right now? Please elaborate on how this demonstrates any form of good faith editing on behalf on Haberstr. He is edit warring against multiple other editors, including editors who have not spoken up here or on the talk page (but who are aware of what the consensus is, and that this is pure edit warring behaviour on his behalf). Stop defending the indefensible and casting WP:ASPERSIONS as to my editing practices. You're persisting with this hunt despite having had it being demonstrated that you are way off base. I'm getting really tired of having to defend myself against someone who has made it clear that this is personal, and that they have an axe to grind. This has gotten to the point where even I'm going to say that you truly deserve a WP:BOOMERANG. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:04, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
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- User:RGloucester (btw, this user has been repeatedly blocked for disruptive behavior - [21]) : "... and claiming in his ES that he is restoring a "stable version", a clearly false statement on any basis." — Actually, it was stable version, inserted on 1 September 2015, removed on 22 January 2016. ".. the insertion of the GfK poll, the inclusion of which had been previously discussed and determined to be WP:UNDUE" — No consensus has been reached on this, see diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff.
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- I'd agree that edit warring, fast or slow, is not the best way to resolve content issues. The best way is by means of civil discussion on the talk page. Personal attacks on article talk pages are a bad idea, because they make it impossible to have that civil discussion about content. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 01:00, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Certain users are constantly involved in edit warring over it, see — Iryna Harpy: diff, diff. Volunteer Marek: diff, diff, diff, diff, diff. My very best wishes: diff. RGloucester: diff, diff. Numerous discussions have taken place, all resulting in no consensus, see POV blanking, Crimean opinion poll, Bobrov vs GfK public opinion research.
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- I'd agree that edit warring, fast or slow, is not the best way to resolve content issues. The best way is by means of civil discussion on the talk page. Personal attacks on article talk pages are a bad idea, because they make it impossible to have that civil discussion about content. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 01:00, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Vague accusations like WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, WP:TENDENTIOUS, WP:CRUSH, "disruptive and bad faithed" [22], [23], [24] are leveled at other editors in an obvious attempt to silence them. I would also note that my experience has shown that User:Volunteer Marek is constantly rude and offensive towards other editors — [25] “Because youtube is not being used as a source. A video on youtube is being used as a source. This has already been explained to both you and Tobby72 so how about the two of you quit playing dumb.” 23:40, 30 August 2015; [26] “exactly how many fucking times have you been warned about making personal attacks and accusing others of being "anti-Russian"? It's not only insulting but moronic. ... Please stop being a ridiculous thoughtless jerk.” 21:39, 13 September 2015; [27] “Will you please stop posting idiotic nonsense to Wikipedia talk pages? RT comments section is somewhere.” 2:40, 9 February 2015; [28] “Yes it was discussed there and ... THE FREAKIN' CONSENSUS WAS AGAINST YOU!!!! Stop playing disruptive WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT games.” 17:39, 3 May 2015.
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- User:My very best wishes has been repeatedly retiring and unretiring, often several times a week, since 2013, see [29], [30], [31]. Is this behavior appropriate? - -- Tobby72 (talk) 15:22, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- What it is, is none of your business.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:53, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- And Tobby72, you do realize what your diffs actually show, right? They show that you've been involved in a freakin' year long edit war against multiple editors and that your level of disruption has reached truly ridiculous proportions. Here's what you've been doing: consensus was against you. But instead of moving on and dropping the stick you've been coming back to the same articles and trying to make the same edits about once every two weeks driving other editors crazy in the process.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:56, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
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- There's no consensus: consensus means everyone is on the same page. The fact of the matter is you having unjustifiably and consistently removed well-documented and sourced information from reliable sources. ... Volunteer Marek's year long edit war against multiple editors: diff, diff, diff, diff. -- Tobby72 (talk) 15:06, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with Marek that if an editor wants to take a wikibreak, that's their own business. It's certainly preferable to insulting people. I agree with Tobby72 about the rude and offensive language Marek has repeatedly used on WP talk pages. Examples like "ridiculous thoughtless jerk" and "not only insulting but moronic" help me to understand why Marek sees nothing wrong with Iryna's rather similar behaviour. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 23:29, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Gimme a break. The "not only insulting but moronic" was a comment directed at a user who was falsely accusing me of bigotry. And not only were they falsely accusing me of it, they were also implying that a prominent Russian journalist was "anti-Russian". And guess, what? It was THAT user that got ban-hammered. Deservedly so.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:04, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Please have a look at the policy page WP:CIVIL, Volunteer Marek. "If others are uncivil, do not respond in kind." Kalidasa 777 (talk) 00:25, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Gimme a break. The "not only insulting but moronic" was a comment directed at a user who was falsely accusing me of bigotry. And not only were they falsely accusing me of it, they were also implying that a prominent Russian journalist was "anti-Russian". And guess, what? It was THAT user that got ban-hammered. Deservedly so.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:04, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
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- User:My very best wishes has been repeatedly retiring and unretiring, often several times a week, since 2013, see [29], [30], [31]. Is this behavior appropriate? - -- Tobby72 (talk) 15:22, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- I did engage in civil discussion on the talk page, as tobby72 has, and as you have. There is no responsive discussion, and no consensus.Haberstr (talk) 01:10, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- You've only started "being civil" (while still POV pushing like crazy, per WP:CRUSH) after you came within a hair's breadth of getting indef banned because you were running around accusing anyone who disagreed with you of "hating Russians" and of being CIA operatives and the like.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:04, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- No matter why Haberstr started being civil, the fact remains that he did start. The diffs presented here, and your response to them, show that Marek and Iryna Harpy have not yet started being consistently civil to people who disagree with them.Kalidasa 777 (talk) 01:25, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, of course everyone assumes good faith on your behalf, Haberstr. Let's see: ah, here's an example of that assumption. I'm not even going to mention prior AE encounters as to your good faith, nor how many times EdJohnston has been called in to examine both your good faith and Tobby72's good faith. Donning all of the trappings of being civil is not civility, it's WP:CPUSH. Again, my calling WP:SPADE is a matter of having had enough of the GAMING. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:42, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Iryna, good to have you back. Once again, though, you assume bad faith on my part. I am not sure why you do that. I assume you are in good faith editting the Ukraine-related articles in an NPOV manner, and I don't know why you don't assume I am doing the same. The problem here is entirely about you assuming bad faith, and expressing that assumption, on the part of all editors who just happen to disagree with your perspective -- and there have been many over the years, most of whom have abandoned editing the pages in the face of withering attacks on their good character. All Kalidasa and I are trying to do is to get you to stop attacking people's motives. Attacking substance is fine, but attacking motives based on 'reading minds' is not.Haberstr (talk) 05:37, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- You've only started "being civil" (while still POV pushing like crazy, per WP:CRUSH) after you came within a hair's breadth of getting indef banned because you were running around accusing anyone who disagreed with you of "hating Russians" and of being CIA operatives and the like.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:04, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
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Update — New claims of "bad faith" on Crimea talk page Since this ANI began, there have been two further postings on the Crimea annexation article talk page which contain the words "bad faith" . One by Volunteer Marek [32], the other by Iryna Harpy. [33] Kalidasa 777 (talk) 00:35, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Can you stop bolding your comments for no reason, as if they were way more important than they really are ? 04:58, 25 March 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Volunteer Marek (talk • contribs)
- I've bolded key words to prevent them being lost among walls of text. Unlike some people, I've also signed each of my comments. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 05:19, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Come on, I don't want to see emboldened phrases present 332 times somewhere on every line. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 05:26, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Hello QEDK. I'd love to read your comment on the substance (rather than the style) of my incident report. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 06:19, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Come on, I don't want to see emboldened phrases present 332 times somewhere on every line. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 05:26, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- I've bolded key words to prevent them being lost among walls of text. Unlike some people, I've also signed each of my comments. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 05:19, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
Unless we want to consider a WP:BOOMERANG against User:Kalidasa 777 for disruptive canvassing or against Tobby72 for his year long edit warring and misleading use of edit summaries to mask it, I'm pretty sure this conversation is going nowhere.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:10, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
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- I think that there are more users disagreeing with Volunteer's POV, than those who support it, but Volunteer Marek, Iryna Harpy, My very best wishes and RGloucester are more determined to keep things as they are.
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- — User:Alex Bakharev — diff, User:Dstary — diff, User:Anonimski — diff, User:MyMoloboaccount — diff, User:Seryo93 — diff, User:LeoKiev01 — diff, User:Kudzu1 — diff, User:Buzz105 — diff, User:Tobby72 — diff, User:Haberstr — diff. As far as Bloomberg News goes, I think it's a reliable source. -- Tobby72 (talk) 15:06, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Iryna is hypocritical, having accused me of bias just because I removed a section full of POV content that happened not to match with this person who may be called "frantically pro-American" by some of my acquaintances 116.31.83.159 (talk) 03:41, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Hmmm, there's no such removal in your edit history which means that you're referring to something you must've done with some other account. So... yet another throw away account trying to create controversy, abusing multiple accounts, etc. etc. etc. same ol' story which is so old by now it's not even annoying anymore, just stupid.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:17, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think the IP user is referring to an edit to the article Human rights in Russia. Yes, it is there in the user's edit history, and yes, it was reversed by Iryna... It's perhaps only marginally relevant to the question of personal attacks on the Crimea and Dugin article talk pages. But there's no need to bite the newbies, Marek. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 09:55, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Kalidasa 777: The IP was actually referring to two articles they'd made POV removals of content from, one of them being the removal of important content from an infobox. Despite my being 99.999% certain that the IP is someone I can identify for WP:BLOCK EVASION, I responded to their 'query' (although I use that term as being extremely loosely construed) on my talk page here. The removal of information in the second article is particularly ludicrous given that their fighting the Nazis was attested to at the Nuremberg trials. Nonetheless, I have treated the IP as a fallible human being who may likely be uninformed, and making errors in judgement based on a lack of knowledge of the subject matter. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:24, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
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- @Iryna Harpy:You've claimed to be 99.999% certain that the IP user is violating WP:BLOCK EVASION, but you've offered zero proof. When will you stop making unsubstantiated attacks on WP users? Kalidasa 777 (talk) 05:04, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Kalidasa 777: Because I know where the IP is operating from, just for starters. In my response the the IP, however, I treated any suspicions as being absolutely irrelevant as I did not revert them because they are probably the user I have in mind: I reverted them for removing valid content without so much as an edit summary, only to have them leave a response on my page telling me that I'm not a neutral editor, and that they think that their removals were based on somehow being just instead of just being uninformed WP:PPOV. So, when are you going to stop scraping the bottom of the barrel in your campaign to discredit me because you're floundering to save face over having started a badly investigated, badly thought out ANI out of some sort of sense of superiority and self-righteous witch hunt? Now that you have the ball rolling, it's rolling right over you and, rather than back down and preserve a little dignity, you feel compelled to have the WP:LASTWORD and WP:WIN the day. You've elicited input from uninvolved editors and admins, yet none have rallied around you in support as you had hoped would happen. Initially, I actually felt a little sorry for you, having given you credit for being inadvertently caught up in a highly complex and long running WP:GAMEing campaign by Habserstr and Tobby because you're not an experienced editor. Your ongoing admonishments bogged down in any petty incident you can scratch up has, sadly, left me in no doubt that this is not the result of jumping into the editing deep-end by throwing yourself into the most controversial areas of Wikipedia without having any idea of the history of these articles... so, with this last 'reprimand', you've truly and finally lost any of my sympathy or support toward you. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:50, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
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- @Iryna Harpy: You say your have suspicions about IP 116.31.83.159. What is your suspicions happen to be wrong? What is this person is a genuine newby, and is watching this page to see how you and others respond to his/her comment here? Do you think the flame you've just written is a good introduction to Wikipedia? Kalidasa 777 (talk) 19:29, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
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- @Kalidasa 777: Because I know where the IP is operating from, just for starters. In my response the the IP, however, I treated any suspicions as being absolutely irrelevant as I did not revert them because they are probably the user I have in mind: I reverted them for removing valid content without so much as an edit summary, only to have them leave a response on my page telling me that I'm not a neutral editor, and that they think that their removals were based on somehow being just instead of just being uninformed WP:PPOV. So, when are you going to stop scraping the bottom of the barrel in your campaign to discredit me because you're floundering to save face over having started a badly investigated, badly thought out ANI out of some sort of sense of superiority and self-righteous witch hunt? Now that you have the ball rolling, it's rolling right over you and, rather than back down and preserve a little dignity, you feel compelled to have the WP:LASTWORD and WP:WIN the day. You've elicited input from uninvolved editors and admins, yet none have rallied around you in support as you had hoped would happen. Initially, I actually felt a little sorry for you, having given you credit for being inadvertently caught up in a highly complex and long running WP:GAMEing campaign by Habserstr and Tobby because you're not an experienced editor. Your ongoing admonishments bogged down in any petty incident you can scratch up has, sadly, left me in no doubt that this is not the result of jumping into the editing deep-end by throwing yourself into the most controversial areas of Wikipedia without having any idea of the history of these articles... so, with this last 'reprimand', you've truly and finally lost any of my sympathy or support toward you. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:50, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Iryna Harpy:You've claimed to be 99.999% certain that the IP user is violating WP:BLOCK EVASION, but you've offered zero proof. When will you stop making unsubstantiated attacks on WP users? Kalidasa 777 (talk) 05:04, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
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- @Kalidasa 777: The IP was actually referring to two articles they'd made POV removals of content from, one of them being the removal of important content from an infobox. Despite my being 99.999% certain that the IP is someone I can identify for WP:BLOCK EVASION, I responded to their 'query' (although I use that term as being extremely loosely construed) on my talk page here. The removal of information in the second article is particularly ludicrous given that their fighting the Nazis was attested to at the Nuremberg trials. Nonetheless, I have treated the IP as a fallible human being who may likely be uninformed, and making errors in judgement based on a lack of knowledge of the subject matter. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:24, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think the IP user is referring to an edit to the article Human rights in Russia. Yes, it is there in the user's edit history, and yes, it was reversed by Iryna... It's perhaps only marginally relevant to the question of personal attacks on the Crimea and Dugin article talk pages. But there's no need to bite the newbies, Marek. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 09:55, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Hmmm, there's no such removal in your edit history which means that you're referring to something you must've done with some other account. So... yet another throw away account trying to create controversy, abusing multiple accounts, etc. etc. etc. same ol' story which is so old by now it's not even annoying anymore, just stupid.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:17, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
Iryna Harpy also routinely engages in accusations of bad faith in her Edit Summaries: [34] ”Do not edit war, or engage in disruptive editing.” [35] “Stop your WP:POV pushing. Take your issues to the talk page instead of edit warring.” [36] ” Don't just modify or remove content because you JUSTDONTLIKEIT.” [37] ” If you want to refactor the lead to reflect the RF narrative per WP:POV pushing, take it to the talk page instead of sneaking in changes under misleading WP:ES.” [38] ” Rv WP:UNDUE + WP:POV pushing for lead.” [39] ” you are using misleading WP:ES to POV push.” [40] "blatant POV refactoring.” [41] ”no discussion over WP:POV use of 'incorporation'Haberstr (talk) 05:20, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Because you are acting in bad faith.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:17, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- More precisely, looking through these diffs, it seems pretty much every single description is accurate. So all you're proving here is that you have been in fact editing disruptively and in bad faith, and just got called out on it. Remind me why you shouldn't be topic banned (and a hefty block as a warning to stop this kind of WP:GAMEing behavior is warranted too)? Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:19, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Again, there is zero evidence for your contention that I, tobby, or kalidasa are editing in bad faith. I'm not sure what you consider evidence. Is it possible that you think that editos who have a perspective different from yours on NPOV are always POV-pushing and therefore acting in bad faith? Assumption of bad faith on that basis creates an exceptionally abusive editing environment, as we readily see from your and Iryna's comments.Haberstr (talk) 13:35, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, you actually managed to provide the evidence yourself. Every single one of those diffs shows that you were doing exactly of what Iryna said you were doing. What's worse, saying that a user "is acting in bad faith", as Iryna did, or actually acting in bad faith, as you and your buddies are doing? Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:49, 26 March 2016 (UTC).
- Now Marek is also accusing me and others of bad faith editing. Again I ask you and Iryna to stop doing that, since there is no evidence and it is very unpleasant being constantly accused of bad character and bad motives. That I insert edits you don't like, because you and I have a different point of view on NPOV, is not evidence of bad faith. Please stop making the current discussion toxic, and please stop making the annexation talk page discussion toxic. And that goes back, always, to you (and Iryna) learning what 'bad faith' and 'evidence of bad faith' mean.Haberstr (talk) 13:04, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, you actually managed to provide the evidence yourself. Every single one of those diffs shows that you were doing exactly of what Iryna said you were doing. What's worse, saying that a user "is acting in bad faith", as Iryna did, or actually acting in bad faith, as you and your buddies are doing? Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:49, 26 March 2016 (UTC).
- Again, there is zero evidence for your contention that I, tobby, or kalidasa are editing in bad faith. I'm not sure what you consider evidence. Is it possible that you think that editos who have a perspective different from yours on NPOV are always POV-pushing and therefore acting in bad faith? Assumption of bad faith on that basis creates an exceptionally abusive editing environment, as we readily see from your and Iryna's comments.Haberstr (talk) 13:35, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
Summary of the problem
- 1. A few days ago, Iryna Harpy used the Crimea annexation article talk page to accuse 3 other editors (Tobby72, Haberstr, and Moscow Connection) of faults including "no good faith". Regarding one of these editors (Moscow Connection), she afterwards withdrew her accusation. Regarding the other two, she did not withdraw. She has since again used the same article talk page to accuse people of "bad faith". Another editor, Volunteer Marek has followed her example by also making accusations of "bad faith" on the article talk page.
- 2. Accusing someone of "bad faith" (in other words, bad motive) is more personal and serious than criticising something they did. It is like accusing someone of vandalism — deliberately harmful editing. Besides, article talk pages are supposed to be there for discussing content, not for criticising other editors.
- 3. This is not a case of previously civil editors who suddenly snapped. Haberstr, Tobby72 and I have presented diffs above which show that both Iryna and Marek have a long history of making personal attacks against multiple people on article talk pages, including extreme expressions like "pineapples up his arse" (quote from Iryna) and "ridiculous thoughtless jerk" (quote from Marek). Iryna and Marek haven't denied these incivilities, instead they have talked about faults of the people they attacked, apparently wanting to show that their flagrant incivility was well deserved.
- 4. Iryna and Marek have complained about edit warring. However, edit wars are frequent in WP, generally have two sides, and are symptoms of a dispute about content. A content dispute is best addressed by civil discussion. Surely not by misusing an article talk page to attack the motives of others.
- 5. Iryna and Marek have complained here about "canvassing" by me in relation to this ANI. In fact I did one thing Iryna herself should have done but did not do — I contacted each of the persons she recently attacked by name on the Crimea article talk page, and let them know what she had said about them. I also notified each of them, and Iryna, about this ANI. That was canvassing? Kalidasa 777 (talk) 08:52, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
Latest insulting prose by Iryna at the Annexation page [42]: Talk about wrapping a paradigm into an enigma, then stuffing it in a won-ton wrapper and asking someone their opinion on whether the weather is 'good', 'bad' or 'indifferent' compared to nothing other than what kind of weather they like. 02:27, 26 March 201. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haberstr (talk • contribs)
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- Thanks to Drmies for discovering that... I got lost. But it would be interesting to know why Kalidasa 777 felt the need to try and hide another editor's post; particularly giving the somewhat lame reason that it had been left unsigned. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 21:08, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Hi Fortuna. I didn't know how it got there. Because it was unsigned and undated, I was concerned that it might be misunderstood as my own postscript to my signed dated posting immediately above it. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 21:16, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- It should be noted that Haberstr isn't the first to make the mistake of leaving a posting undersigned. Marek did the same in his post at 04:58, 25 March 2016 (UTC). I wish everyone would be more careful... Kalidasa 777 (talk) 21:48, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- It should also be noted that refactoring other editors' comments without good reason is looked upon far more dimmly by the community than the not signing of posts :) whatever. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 21:58, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- You're right, Fortuna. I slipped up. My apologies to Haberstr and to the community for interfering with his GF post.Kalidasa 777 (talk) 22:07, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- It should also be noted that refactoring other editors' comments without good reason is looked upon far more dimmly by the community than the not signing of posts :) whatever. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 21:58, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks to Drmies for discovering that... I got lost. But it would be interesting to know why Kalidasa 777 felt the need to try and hide another editor's post; particularly giving the somewhat lame reason that it had been left unsigned. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 21:08, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
Sorry to you, Kalidasa, and to everyone for forgetting to sign the above, and thereby confusing folks.Haberstr (talk) 13:19, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- This is a farce, as I predicted it would be. I don't know why Kalidasa 777 has come out of the woodwork to gang up on Iryna and Marek, but I can tell that the reason is far from rooted in good faith. RGloucester — ☎ 16:17, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
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- You seem to be saying that you're not sure of my motive, but you know it isn't a good one. Is that what your saying. RGloucester? -- Kalidasa 777 (talk) 18:03, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- I agree: Harbestr does not conduct these discussions in good faith. How do I know it? Because he started a discussion that materials about PEW center survey were not included [43], while being perfectly aware that they are already included. My very best wishes (talk) 04:16, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Haberstr's proposal was the Pew poll finding re Crimeans' confidence in the referendum result should be mentioned in a different section — the section specifically about the referendum and what various people thought of it. That is your proof that Haberstr lacks good faith? Kalidasa 777 (talk) 04:35, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Now you're getting the point, Kalidasa 777: Haberstr's 'proposal' is to stick it into the section describing/outlining the circumstances of the referendum here where it is immaterial other than an attempt at WP:GEVAL. The section is dedicated to discussing the context, circumstances, and exclusion of international groups who would be in a position to observe and monitor the legitimacy of how the referendum was held, and where the content explicitly deals with RS describing the international community's disdain for the preclusion of genuinely neutral observers (selecting, instead, a handful of representatives affiliated with groups that he and his administration hoped would be more receptive to saying that it was all fair and above-board). Bottom line: wanting to stick it in there per the rationale offered by Haberstr here is a POV-push to demonstrate that 'this was the popular choice by the people of Crimea' as it has no bearing on the content being examined in the relevant section. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:22, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Regarding this particular content question, I happen to agree with Haberstr. Does that mean that I also lack good faith? Kalidasa 777 (talk) 07:00, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Hmm... Staring a discussion with demands to include info that has been already included. Doing this in a 101th time (same question just was debated in a previous section of the same page [44] and many times before). Reporting users who are frustrated by this WP:DE drama to ANI. This is all certainly in a good faith. My very best wishes (talk) 12:40, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
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- "This is all certainly in a good faith". Are you being sarcastic, My very best wishes? -- Kalidasa 777 (talk) 17:55, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- The subsection on the referendum, in which the conduct and fairness of the referendum is attacked, should also have the poll where the Crimean people, through an RS poll reported by an RS source, state their opinion on those matters. There is a full and civil discussion of this matter at the talk page, where I have not been accused of bad faith. Can we get back on topic now? I think that topic is Iryna Harpy's repeated assumptions of bad faith against other editors, where her essential evidence seems to be "I disagree with your edit."Haberstr (talk) 13:19, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- The way ANIs work, the discussion doesn't have to be only about the person mentioned at the start... Others can be criticised here, including the person who brought the ANI. What seems to be emerging, is that (1) RGloucester and Wishes not only defend Iryna's right (?) to make accusations of lack of good faith on an article talk page, they are also adding their own voices to Iryna's (though here rather than on the article talk page itself) (2) Now, not only you (Haberstr) and Tobby72 are being accused of having bad motives, I (Kalidasa) am being accused as well... Kalidasa 777 (talk) 19:01, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Kalidasa 777: Why are you so surprised at the BOOMERANG principle? Yes, the ANI is used by editors to report warring, disruptive behaviour, and other problems on articles where they are uninvolved. You opened this ANI because you were (and still are) involved, therefore your motivates for bringing this to the very public attention of admins and members of the editing community and are, rightly, subject to scrutiny. As soon as negative responses to your submission started coming in from other editors, you widened your net to drag in more and more editors and accused them of collusion, all the while claiming that you, Haberstr, and Tobby72 are somehow innocent bystanders who have been caught up in a cabal of evildoers. At the end of the day, the behaviour you are displaying is what I would qualify as being bad faith. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:46, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
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- "Cabal of evildoers" is Iryna's choice of words, not mine.Kalidasa 777 (talk) 21:43, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, Iryna, I'm not surprised at the WP:BOOMERANG principle. I knew when I started this thread that my own behaviour could be critically examined. I'm confident that the administrators will look at complaints made about each of us in an impartial spirit, to see which (if any) complaints are substantiated and actionable. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 22:01, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
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- @Kalidasa 777: Why are you so surprised at the BOOMERANG principle? Yes, the ANI is used by editors to report warring, disruptive behaviour, and other problems on articles where they are uninvolved. You opened this ANI because you were (and still are) involved, therefore your motivates for bringing this to the very public attention of admins and members of the editing community and are, rightly, subject to scrutiny. As soon as negative responses to your submission started coming in from other editors, you widened your net to drag in more and more editors and accused them of collusion, all the while claiming that you, Haberstr, and Tobby72 are somehow innocent bystanders who have been caught up in a cabal of evildoers. At the end of the day, the behaviour you are displaying is what I would qualify as being bad faith. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:46, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- The way ANIs work, the discussion doesn't have to be only about the person mentioned at the start... Others can be criticised here, including the person who brought the ANI. What seems to be emerging, is that (1) RGloucester and Wishes not only defend Iryna's right (?) to make accusations of lack of good faith on an article talk page, they are also adding their own voices to Iryna's (though here rather than on the article talk page itself) (2) Now, not only you (Haberstr) and Tobby72 are being accused of having bad motives, I (Kalidasa) am being accused as well... Kalidasa 777 (talk) 19:01, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Regarding this particular content question, I happen to agree with Haberstr. Does that mean that I also lack good faith? Kalidasa 777 (talk) 07:00, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Now you're getting the point, Kalidasa 777: Haberstr's 'proposal' is to stick it into the section describing/outlining the circumstances of the referendum here where it is immaterial other than an attempt at WP:GEVAL. The section is dedicated to discussing the context, circumstances, and exclusion of international groups who would be in a position to observe and monitor the legitimacy of how the referendum was held, and where the content explicitly deals with RS describing the international community's disdain for the preclusion of genuinely neutral observers (selecting, instead, a handful of representatives affiliated with groups that he and his administration hoped would be more receptive to saying that it was all fair and above-board). Bottom line: wanting to stick it in there per the rationale offered by Haberstr here is a POV-push to demonstrate that 'this was the popular choice by the people of Crimea' as it has no bearing on the content being examined in the relevant section. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:22, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Haberstr's proposal was the Pew poll finding re Crimeans' confidence in the referendum result should be mentioned in a different section — the section specifically about the referendum and what various people thought of it. That is your proof that Haberstr lacks good faith? Kalidasa 777 (talk) 04:35, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
Summary of the REAL problem
A couple users with a history of disruptive editing - Haberst, Tobby72, and Kalidasa 777 - are upset that they're not allowed to push their POV in peace. So Kalidasa 777 starts an ANI threat making nonsense accusations against a well respected and long standing contributor, Iryna, and engages in bad faith'ed canvassing to make sure his buddies show up. They do. And they join in the screaming and crying and hysterics. Haberst, who almost got indefinitely banned for going around accusing other editors of bigotry, and who as a result lay low for awhile, but now decided to come back and restart edit wars from long time ago. And Tobby72 who has been trying to stuff the same text over and over and over and over and over again against consensus for more than a year now and who uses purposefully misleading edit summary to try and mask what he's doing. That's about it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:47, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Volunteer Marek, you've accused me, by name, of "a history of disruptive editing". You have diffs to demonstrate where and how I went wrong? Please present them here, with comments, so I can learn from my mistakes. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 17:55, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
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- We want to include the GfK poll results, as reported in reliable sources. That's all. I don't think there's a consensus to exclude the GfK survey, see diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff. Also please refrain from personal attacks. You have been asked to do so numerous times already. -- Tobby72 (talk) 10:09, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Marek, do you believe that me, Kalidasa, tobby, and in the past molobaccount and others in the long-standing content disputes on the Annexation of Crimea page are all engaging in disruptive editing? I've heard your assertion many times, but what is your reasoning? Diffs are not reasoning. I look at the same diffs and, assuming good faith, what I see are content disputes over non-consensus, non-stable sections and subsections.Haberstr (talk) 12:53, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Conducting a year long slow motion edit war, as evidenced by the diffs above, against multiple editors, is most certainly disruptive. That's Tobby. As for your case, I'll let the diffs speak for themselves.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:36, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- I can't answer for Marek, but you guys are bringing either very old diffs that are now completely irrelevant (this info was included) or a more recent change that has been reverted, discussed on article talk page and did not cause any further objections from the person who try to include this duplicate info. My very best wishes (talk) 13:06, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- The GfK survey was removed — diff, diff. -- Tobby72 (talk) 14:24, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- My very best wishes, you keep repeating "this info was included". Are you saying that once a piece of information is included in an article, there can then be no further good faith discussion about how the information is presented, e.g. about which part of the article it appears in, how much prominence it is given? Kalidasa 777 (talk) 18:31, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, that was always included. I also rearranged these materials per your suggestions [45], but this edit was reverted by RGloucester. You should probably talk with him. I agree with you or rather do not care. My very best wishes (talk) 05:03, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Wishes, I appreciate that you've taken some of my ideas on board and looked for areas of agreement. That RGloucester strongly disagrees, is part of the normal life of Wikipedia — of course people have different views about what to include and where to put it. That's why we need to have civil discussions on the talk pages, without personal attacks. As you wrote earlier in this thread: "people should not discuss each other on article talk pages, even when discussion is heated. They must definitely realize that." Kalidasa 777 (talk) 11:43, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Why is this being used as a surrogate for the article's talk page? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 09:27, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Wishes, I appreciate that you've taken some of my ideas on board and looked for areas of agreement. That RGloucester strongly disagrees, is part of the normal life of Wikipedia — of course people have different views about what to include and where to put it. That's why we need to have civil discussions on the talk pages, without personal attacks. As you wrote earlier in this thread: "people should not discuss each other on article talk pages, even when discussion is heated. They must definitely realize that." Kalidasa 777 (talk) 11:43, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Yes, that was always included. I also rearranged these materials per your suggestions [45], but this edit was reverted by RGloucester. You should probably talk with him. I agree with you or rather do not care. My very best wishes (talk) 05:03, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- My very best wishes, you keep repeating "this info was included". Are you saying that once a piece of information is included in an article, there can then be no further good faith discussion about how the information is presented, e.g. about which part of the article it appears in, how much prominence it is given? Kalidasa 777 (talk) 18:31, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- The GfK survey was removed — diff, diff. -- Tobby72 (talk) 14:24, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Quite a lot has been said here, but by a limited number of people. Almost all of them directly involved with the Crimea Annexation page. Input from uninvolved Wikipedians might help to resolve this rather complex and conflicted situation. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 06:11, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Which particular issue is it that you're asking other editors and admins to 'resolve'? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 09:27, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- I think the basic issue here is whether all Wikipedia users have the right to be treated civilly, especially on article talk pages? Or whether (as some seem to think) that right disappears if they've been involved in a content dispute with Iryna Harpy, Volunteer Marek, and RGloucester? Kalidasa 777 (talk) 21:30, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- That's a really ... inaccurate way of portraying the issue, especially given the well documented disruptive editing by Tobby72 and other users above. However, seeing as how nobody uninvolved has bothered to get in on this, it's probably a good idea for you to drop this, rather than keep on beating this dead horse.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:36, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Or maybe someone possesses an everlasting "get out of jail free" card and is understandably just taking advantage of it. This has been going on for years, and will continue for years more. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:08, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
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- @Tiptoethrutheminefield: Stop using the ANI and article talk pages for grinding your WP:AXE against admins and other editors you hold a WP:GRUDGE against. From what I've seen, your list of grudges is very, very long, and is a greater indictment of your own editing practices than that of those of the people you choose to cast WP:ASPERSIONS about. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:13, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I think that this will never end. So, deal with it ...
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- I think the basic issue here is whether all Wikipedia users have the right to be treated civilly, especially on article talk pages? Or whether (as some seem to think) that right disappears if they've been involved in a content dispute with Iryna Harpy, Volunteer Marek, and RGloucester? Kalidasa 777 (talk) 21:30, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Which particular issue is it that you're asking other editors and admins to 'resolve'? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 09:27, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Volunteer Marek — 00:00, 15 March 2016 — "Your opinion is noted. And also irrelevant. ... Can you please self-revert your disruptive edit .."
- Volunteer Marek — 23:24, 26 March 2016 — ".. and then one of you (EtienneDolet, Athenean or SaintAviator) comes in and say "we're gonna do whatever we want to anyway, thank you for letting us waste your time."
- Volunteer Marek — 05:15, 27 March 2016 — ".. demand that others "assume good faith" even as you blatantly try to WP:GAME'em.."
- Volunteer Marek — 22:33, 8 April 2016 — "after getting completely worn out, frustrated and at the end of my patience ... So this is just WP:FORUMSHOPPING. Which is bad faithed and disruptive." -- Tobby72 (talk) 23:41, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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Springee campaigning
User reported: Springee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Diff: 21:57, 24 March 2016
Inappropriate notification. Non-neutral wording of notice. Campaigning; attempt to sway the person reading the notice.
Previous reports of Springee for canvassing
- 2 December 2015: WP:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive907#User_Springee_Canvassing by Scoobydunk
- 11 March 2016: WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive917#March 2016 User:Springee canvassing
Respectfully request:
- administrator removal of inappropriate non-neutral personal comment portion of RfC notice at WT:WikiProject Automobiles#RfC: Reception; rankings in independent surveys and ratings of quality, reliability, and customer satisfaction; and
- warning to Springee reminding of our project's behavioral guideline WP:CANVASS, in particular our community norm regarding the need for neutrality in notifications.
Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:41, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
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- The above statement are likely from a banned editor who has attempted to harass both Ricky81682 and myself over the past six months or so. Springee (talk) 20:53, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Allow me to be the first one to say that this is going too far. You obviously have a problem with Springee that you are unwilling to address. Besides seeing a failure to discuss the wording with Springee, I personally do not see any violation of WP:CANVASS. The only way that the wording is not neutral is if you look for a personal attack in the first sentence, which is absurd. While the wording could have been "An editor has raised question to...." The comment as it stands (I'm not sure why the editor responsible for the below RfC failed to notify this board.), is by no way something deserving of ANI. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 17:40, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- I don't see any canvassing either. The wording was simply "I don't know why the editor didn't notice the wikiproject". It wasn't any accusation at all. Frankly, there's no requirement that someone notify a project about an RFC occurring at a page within it especially since it does show up at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Automobiles#Article_alerts. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 18:28, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Thank you for your comment. Yes, the RfC was already on the project page, which explains why talk was not notified. Yes, no one is required to notify. May I respectfully request that you take another quick look at the notice with an eye toward specifically campaigning, using non-neutral wording of a notice to sway respondents, by slyly attempting to make an issue of motives? Again, I seek only a little clean-up and a warning from a third party, perhaps a reminder of the availability of Template:Please see? Thank you again. Hugh (talk) 19:05, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
Proposed Interaction Ban between Springee and HughD
I propose a 1 year two-way interaction ban between HughD and Springee.
Reasoning: I recalled seeing an ANI post like this just days ago (found here) and upon searching "springee hugh" in the noticeboards, I was appalled by how much I found and how recently it all was. Even today an AN3 case was closed (1). These two report each other to various noticeboards far too frequently (2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ) or end up proposing sanctions for each other ([46], 8). Even Ricky81682 proposed such an interaction ban back on 25 September 2015 ([47]). Both editors have most recently been on Ford Pinto and Chrysler and Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Co. and associated talk pages all month, raking up dozens of edits. They appear to have followed each other to these pages, as well as other pages back in January (Interaction timelines: Ford Pinto interactions, Talk:Ford Pinto interactions, Chrysler interactions, Talk:Chrysler interactions, Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Co. interactions, Talk:Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Co. interactions, ExxonMobil interactions, Talk:ExxonMobil interactions, ExxonMobil climate change controversy ineteractions, Talk:ExxonMobil climate change controversy interactions). In sum, these two appear to follow each other, report each other, and cannot edit constructive together. They cause disruption together and need to be separated. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:16, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support - Something needs doing, and this is probably the only thing that will do it. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 20:19, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Traveling: I've been traveling for the past few days and have had limited internet access. I would ask for an opportunity to reply before any sanctions or blocks are applied to my account. Thank you. Springee (talk) 22:25, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
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- While we're waiting, can someone please pitch in with a little clean-up of the totally unnecessary, non-neutral, personal comment prefacing the RfC notice at WT:WikiProject Automobiles#RfC: Reception; rankings in independent surveys and ratings of quality, reliability, and customer satisfaction? After all, an RfC is one of our important mechanisms for de-escalating content disputes, please can it get off the ground free of a cloud of early non-neutral notification. Thanks. Hugh (talk) 23:45, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support - Thank you, EvergreenFir for suggesting this - I've been watching Springee and HughD carry on for months now, the bad blood between them has been seriously disruptive across multiple articles. Both users have indeed followed the other to unrelated articles they'd never edited before, and engaged in some seriously disruptive behavior in a bid to win whatever argument they're currently having. It's been clear to me for some time that both of them are basically trying to goad the other one into further bad behavior in the hopes that they'll be blocked - despite repeated pleas from admins and other users (including myself) to just move on and leave each other alone. Their conflict has resulted in edit wars and train-wreck talk page disputes across too many articles. It's way past time admins put a stop to this. Fyddlestix (talk) 03:38, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - I would like to avoid having editing restrictions placed on my account. I asked several editors for help related to this issue (Fyddlestix [48], Callanecc [49], EdJohnson [50] and Ricky81682 [51]) specifically because I didn’t want this to turn into an edit war. I’ve been involved in automotive and closely related topics since establishing my account and certainly didn't follow HughD to these topics. Previously I have said that I do not wish to engage HughD in new topics and I have stuck to that. Please note that I have been involved with the Pinto topic since last year (3 edits not realizing I was logged out at the time, the Grimshaw article is about a Ford Pinto fire) and the Chrysler topic since last December. I think it is unfortunate that HughD would choose to edit those topics given my obvious involvement and his statements regarding our previous disagreements[52]. That said, before any restrictions are applied to my account related to these edits I would ask that other editors on those two topics be given a voice here (NickCT and Greglocock on the Pinto talk page, CZmarlin and Historianbuff on the Chrysler page). I would also ask that editors consider this recent topic on the Pinto Talk page regarding HughD’s edits. [53] I will happily, voluntarily and if need be unilaterally agree to a 3 month interaction ban with HughD and that during that time we avoid any topic which we were not editing prior to March 1 of this year. I do not feel that it is fair or just to sanction my account for these editing issues given the stark difference in article page feedback between HughD and myself. Please note I am still traveling and will have limited internet access over the next day or two. Springee (talk) 20:49, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose at least so far as as pages which Springee has long edited. Regarding seeking out interaction, i dunno one way or the other, but it's a frequent temptation to any good editor to seek out and repair damage to other articles. That can often be found simply by tracking a particular editor's ...I dunno. "Contributions" looks like a euphemism, in some cases. Anmccaff (talk) 21:15, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - I think topic bans would be an easier way to get at this. HughD needs to be topic banned from Ford Pinto where he is editing disruptively. Start with that page, then look at others both editors are on. Whoever was there second should be banned from the page. NickCT (talk) 21:47, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Pinging Callanecc, who on 18 October 2015 asked Springee:
There's no ban violation there. You need to avoid this in the future, I can't see how you would have found this unless you were monitoring Hugh's edits. Therefore stop doing that and avoid commenting on Hugh's edits.
- Pinging Scoobydunk, who on 14 September 2015 reported Springee here at ANI at for Hounding and Tendentious editing of me and others. Hugh (talk) 23:49, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support - EvergreenFir, thank you for your proposal. I believe your proposal will greatly improve my enjoyment of contributing to our project. I am, I think rightly, proud of my good articles, and my article space percentage (70%), but both have suffered mightily since Springee made me his project at the Americans for Prosperity good article effort in Spring 2015. May I please point out, I am not socking as the IP you link to as suggesting a sanction for Springee, and though not the main issue here, to be fair, there is hardly any sort of equivalency between my reports of Springee and Springee's prodigious noticeboard volume. May I respectfully ask that my colleagues decline consideration of voluntary alternatives, and decline attempts by some to use this noticeboard filing, originally over one incident of non-neutral notice, to fashion some kind of interaction ban hybrid with a topic ban, via drawing a complex armistice line through Wikipedia subjects. As far as waiting for holiday travel, if my colleagues here want to hold off until they see yet another wall of text arguing why Hugh should be banned, fine, but I'd just as soon get on with getting on with what best I can tell is a simple reasonable measured proposal. Thank you again. Hugh (talk) 00:36, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Thank you again to EvergreenFir for your simple reasonable proportional proposal. Thank you to my colleagues for your support of the proposal. I have read and understand interactions bans and support the proposal.
- EvergreenFir wrote: "These two report each other to various noticeboards far too frequently or end up proposing sanctions for each other." May I clarify and quantify.
- Springee has reported HughD 7 times:
- AE 27 December 2015
- ANI 31 July 2015, proposed topic ban
- ANI 6 August 2015, proposed topic ban
- 3RN 22 August 2015
- 3RN 26 October 2015
- 3RN 7 March 2016
- 3RN 12 March 2016, proposed topic ban
- Springee has previously proposed topic bans for me three times, twice an at ANI and once at 3RN; four times including this current ANI report. I have reported Springee twice, at ANI, 11 March 2016 and the current report, and the harshest sanction I have proposed for Springee is above in this report: a warning reminding of the importance of neutrality in notifying and a reminder of the availability of the "please see" template. Springee's project for going on a year now has been getting HughD banned. Thank you again. Hugh (talk) 05:10, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- HughD, you should also mention that in the last year you have been blocked five times, been topic blocked and had that blocked expanded. Perhaps the number of reports is just reflective of your editing behaviors. If you think I'm so mean why did you follow me to the Pinto and Chrysler topics? Springee (talk) 11:52, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment. I don't think an IBAN would work. Although I honestly don't see a problem with the content of Springee's edits, and I do see a serious problem with many of HughD's edits, I think the only solution which would reduce disruption is to ban one or both of the editors from Wikipedia, or just ban both editors from any article and talk page where they have caused disruption, either being able to immediately appeal in the unlikely event that one is not at fault. Springee seems unable to avoid taunting Hugh, and Hugh seems unable to avoid making absurd statements about sources and policy.
- As for me, I have actively avoided editing in topics where Hugh is likely to be found. My enjoyment of Wikipedia, and I believe Wikipedia's accuracy, would be greatly improved if Hugh were banned. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:04, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Seconded re HD. I oppose any action on S but would ask him to back off a little William M. Connolley (talk) 07:07, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Comment: I'm not sure if an IBAN would address the underlying issues. HughD and Springee are by far the two most active editors on the articles they are currently sparring at, Ford Pinto and Chrysler. If they can't interact on the talk pages of these articles, I'm afraid they'll just edit war in article space instead. However, it's not like their interactions on the talk page have ever yielded anything constructive. It seems quite clear that HughD followed Springee to automotive articles. Springee first edited Ford Pinto on January 11, 2016, while HughD made his first edit on March 2, 2016 (for Chrysler, Springee's first edit was in July 2015 and Hugh's in March 2016). HughD seems to be on a sort of revenge campaign after being topic banned from U.S. political articles. His newfound interest in automobiles, which is an area Springee edited in prior to HughD's involvement, seems unlikely to be a coincidence. It looks more like calculated aggravation. I would know something about Hugh's penchant for appropriating his least favorite editors' interests, as several months ago he bizarrely plagiarized my statement of editorial interests from my user page. I don't think Hugh is interested in US Weekly or cars. I think he's interested in trying to make the editing lives of his perceived foes less pleasant. So yes, I'd support an IBAN as a first step, I suppose, but I think Hugh's continued involvement on automotive pages is highly likely to render him topic banned from that area as well. Safehaven86 (talk) 15:25, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
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- The "calculated aggravation" works both ways here - while it is less recent, Springee has done just as much (and as blatant) following of HughD - I detailed some of that at 3RR and at AE months ago. Check the diffs, some of the harassment was pretty severe/blatant. More recently, Springee has posted eight times to HughD's talk page since HughD specifically asked him not to post there (ie "banned" him from his talk page) in December, and devoted considerable effort and time into trying to get HughD sanctioned (multiple reports, contacting individual admins directly, etc). Both of these editors have been bearing a grudge against the other one for a long time now. Fyddlestix (talk) 23:05, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Springee persistent violations of WP:NOBAN despite repeated reminders:
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- 19 October 2015 First notice HughD WP:NOBAN request to Springee "Do not post on my talk page" at User talk:Springee
- 19 October 2015, 20 October 2015, 20 October 2015, 21 October 2015, 21 October 2015, 22 October 2015, 25 October 2015, 26 October 2015 Springee posts to User talk:HughD
- 26 October 2015 Second notice Springee reminded of WP:NOBAN request at User talk:HughD
- 22 December 2015 Springee posts to User talk:HughD
- 22 December 2015 Third notice Springee reminded of WP:NOBAN request at User talk:HughD
- 23 December 2015, 26 December 2015, 26 December 2015, 27 January 2016, 2 March 2016 Springee posts to User talk:HughD
- 2 March 2016 Fourth notice Springee reminded of WP:NOBAN request at User talk:HughD
- 7 March 2016 Springee posts to User talk:HughD
- 7 March 2016 Fifth notice Springee reminded of WP:NOBAN request at User talk:HughD
- 11 March 2016, 18 March 2016 Springee posts to User talk:HughD
- 18 March 2016 Sixth notice Springee reminded of WP:NOBAN request at User talk:HughD
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- Thank you for your attention to this harassing editor behavior. Hugh (talk) 17:54, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- Springee persistent violations of WP:NOBAN despite repeated reminders:
- The "calculated aggravation" works both ways here - while it is less recent, Springee has done just as much (and as blatant) following of HughD - I detailed some of that at 3RR and at AE months ago. Check the diffs, some of the harassment was pretty severe/blatant. More recently, Springee has posted eight times to HughD's talk page since HughD specifically asked him not to post there (ie "banned" him from his talk page) in December, and devoted considerable effort and time into trying to get HughD sanctioned (multiple reports, contacting individual admins directly, etc). Both of these editors have been bearing a grudge against the other one for a long time now. Fyddlestix (talk) 23:05, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comments: I would like to address some of the comments here. I appreciate Safehaven86’s comments about HughD’s editing behaviors and following me to the Pinto and Chrysler topics. Like Safehaven86, HughD added an interest area of mine to his home page after the fact[54]. HughD’s first Chrysler edit was reverting me (removal[55], added back[56]).
- Fyddlestix has my respect and I contacted him for help[57] related to these issues. I do not agree with him in this case. Fyddlestix mentioned his comments in a previous AE [58]. My reply is here[59]. The wikihounding accusations last fall, though they didn't stick, made me wary of ANY actions may be seen as following HughD to new topics. HughD clearly followed me to the automotive topics. Regarding posts to HughD's talk page, consider what they were. Notifications of admin discussions are a requirement. I asked him to please watch the 3RR/warring hoping to avoid bigger issues. One post because it was clear he followed me to the Pinto article[60] and one in frustration (but not attack)[61]. These are not attempts to provoke.
- HughD’s Pinto edits have clearly upset other editors as well as myself. 250 edits at a rate of ~50 per day when many editors were asking him to slow down is disruptive [62]. Chrysler page editors are also concerned about HughD’s edits as well[63] [64]. My efforts were appriciated[65].
- I think Fyddlestix’s POV is based on the past, not the recent issues. I want to assure him this is not a case of me trying to provoke HughD but the other way around and rather blatant at that. Like Arthur Rubin I had grown tired of dealing with HughD and wanted to move back into primarily automotive topics. I was unhappy to find that HughD followed me to those topics. I do not believe it would be just to sanction my account because HughD decided to follow me. That said, I am more than willing to voluntarily and if need be unilaterally agree to an interaction ban. I would suggest that HughD respond in kind with a voluntary interaction ban and also agree to leave the Pinto and Chrysler related topics. If HughD feels I violate that voluntary ban then he has ample ammo for an ANI. Given his actions on the Pinto and Chrysler pages I would support topic blocks but I think a voluntary agreement to abandon the topics (hence my future work in the area would not be seen as an interaction) should be acceptable to us both. I’ve shown that I can stick to my word and will do so again. Again, I do not wish to be sanctioned because HughD followed me here. Springee (talk) 03:06, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- Springee claims to have forsworn following after his previous report to WP:ANI:
I’ve been involved in automotive and closely related topics since establishing my account and certainly didn't follow HughD to these topics. Previously I have said that I do not wish to engage HughD in new topics and I have stuck to that.
The wikihounding accusations last fall, though they didn't stick, made me wary of ANY actions may be seen as following HughD to new topics...I think Fyddlestix’s POV is based on the past, not the recent issues. I want to assure him this is not a case of me trying to provoke HughD...I’ve shown that I can stick to my word and will do so again.
- Unfortunately, this is not the case.
- Recent incidents of Springee following HughD, with diffs (the following list is focused for brevity to incidents of Springee following HughD, when Springee's first edit to the article was to revert or undo HughD in article space, and does not include following to talk or noticeboards or following when Springee's first edit to the article was tagging):
- 14 September 2015 Springee reported at WP:ANI for for Hounding and Tendentious editing, report opening with 8 articles to which Springee followed HughD
- 15 October 2015 Springee's 1st edit at American Coalition for Clean Coal Electricity was to revert HughD after 4 hours (HughD 1st edit was 18 August 2015)
- 15 October 2015 Springee's 1st edit at Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow was to revert HughD after 4 hours (HughD 1st edit was 7 March 2015)
- 15 October 2015 Springee's 1st edit at Beacon Center of Tennessee was to undo HughD after 4 hours (HughD 1st edit was 30 September 2015)
- 18 October 2015 Admin asked Springee to stop following HughD and to stop commenting on HughD's edits
- 12 November 2015 Springee's 1st edit at American Petroleum Institute was to revert HughD after 13 hours (HughD 1st edit was 18 August 2015)
- 21 December 2015 Springee's 1st edit at ExxonMobil was to revert HughD after 5 hours (HughD 1st edit was 18 August 2015)
- 22 January 2016 Springee's 1st edit at ExxonMobil climate change controversy was an undo of HughD after 3 minutes (HughD 1st edit was 22 January 2016)
- 4 March 2016 Springee's 1st edit at Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Co. was to revert HughD after 3 hours (HughD 1st edit was 2 March 2016)
- Respectfully suggest to my colleagues that voluntary concessions are unlikely to be effective in curbing this disruptive following behavior. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:08, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- Noted. However, because of Hugh's frequent violations of content policies, Springee should be allowed to comment on such violations, even if he/she is not allowed to revert them. So this would be a somewhat modified IBAN. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:38, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- Why would a voluntary, two way IBAN not work HughD? Are you afraid you won't hold to it? What evidence to you have that I can't be trusted? Springee (talk) 04:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Above, Springee misrepresented his following behavior, claiming he stopped in the Fall of 2015. Below, Springee wrote on 28 March 2016: "I would like to start by pointing out that HughD's current topic block was the result of dishonestly presenting his own actions..." Do we have a policy or guideline or community norm regarding honesty in statements in support of a proposed sanction in behavioral noticeboard filings? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:46, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
- HughD, Springee's interpretation is the same as mine. As I was still assuming good faith on your part, I would have said that his block was the result of making an unbelievable assertion in regard his own actions, without saying it was dishonest. With your followups, it was either dishonest or indication of such inability to understand facts as to constitute a WP:CIR violation. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:53, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Springee followed HughD to a GA review. The above list highlights article space following behavior after Springee's claimed conversion. Other colleagues, including Scoobydunk at WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive901#Reporting user:Springee for Hounding and Tendentious editing and Fyddlestix at WP:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive187#HughD, have compiled comprehensive lists if the extensive following behavior prior to the claimed conversion, thank you very much to them for their support in addressing this long-overdue behavioral issue.
- But one earlier episode of Springee following me is particularly telling of Springee's priorities: 11 August 2015 Springee followed me to the Good Article Review of Bernard Stone, a recently passed Chicago alderman, olav ha-sholom, of which article I was the principle author and GA nominator, during collaboration to address issues from the GA review, to argue against GA. Thank you to all for your careful consideration of addressing this disruptive behavior. Hugh (talk) 15:46, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Additional evidence of Springee following HughD In support of the proposed interaction ban, may I respectfully submit for consideration additional evidence (again, in the interest of brevity, the following list is limited to article space, and to where Springee's first edit was a revert or undo of HughD):
- 18 August 2015 Springee's 1st edit to Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change was to revert HughD after 2 hours
- 19 August 2015 Springee's 1st edit to Christopher Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley was to undo HughD after 1 day
- 19 August 2015 Springee's 1st edit to The Heartland Institute was to revert HughD after 1 day
- 26 August 2015 Springee's 1st edit to FreedomWorks was to revert HughD after 3 days
- 27 August 2015 Springee's 1st edit to Chicago-style politics was to revert HughD after 20 hours
- The record is clear that following and harassing HughD is a significant distinguishing characteristic of Springee's editorial behavior of the past year. Thank you to the community for your thoughtful consideration of the proposed interaction ban. Hugh (talk) 16:06, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Additional recent evidence of Springee following HughD
- 9 April 2016 Springee follows HughD to WP:Third opinion to disrupt dispute resolution at Talk:Ford Pinto.
- 9 April 2016 Springee follows HughD to History of Ford Motor Company to post an evaluation of an editor at article talk.
- 11 March 2016, 11 March 2016, 11 March 2016 Springee disruption of WP:Request for comment dispute resolution at Talk:Ford Pinto.
- Please note Springee's focus on the editor rather than the edits and Springee's relentless efforts to disrupt legitimate dispute resolution steps.
- Respectfully request 2-way interaction ban as proposed by uninvolved colleagues. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:55, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- Springee claims to have forsworn following after his previous report to WP:ANI:
Comment to HughD's accusations:HughD's accusations beg a question. If I have been so mean to him, why follow me here? It's not like automotive articles have been a topic space of HughD's. If he just wanted to be left alone doesn't following me to a space I've been in for a long time and he's never been in seem like he was looking to start a fight, a fight I didn't engage in per the views of the Pinto and Chrysler editors. I’m sorry but HughD’s claims above are very misleading if not outright dishonest. I would like to start by pointing out that HughD's current topic block was the result of dishonestly presenting his own actions in a previous ANI [66] as part of an AE request against another editor. Please keep that in mind when reading his accounting of events. To avoid a wall of text I have used the collapse feature. He is taking a laughable accusation of canvasing (later changed to campaigning) and trying to turn it into a dumping ground of old accusations. Why mention these issues months after the fact? Sadly I believe this is a plan on HughD's part. If he gets an IBAN then I believe he assumes that will result in an effective Pinto and Chrysler topic block for me. Regardless of outcome I would ask admins to consider the fact that the editors replying from the recent topics have been supportive of my participation on the topics in question. No editors have been supportive of HughD's involvement with the articles in question. While I believe a voluntary IBAN would solve the issue (not sure why HughD is against such a thing other than malice) it would be unjust to block me from automotive topics because HughD chose to follow me to those areas with the intent to be disruptive.
General replies to HughD's accusations |
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HughD mentioned the Americans for Prosperity page. I replied to an RfC that HughD had at the page. I had no idea who HughD was prior to that article. A large number of editors were involved. Like the outside editors responding to the Chrysler and Pinto pages I was badgered by HughD because I didn't agree with his POV. A review of the editorial history of the page, an article which HughD was topic banned from, doesn't show any misbehavior on my part. I'm not sure why HughD would even claim it other than it was the first time we interacted as editors. HughD states I followed him to several articles months after his first edit. That is a half truth. The topic of editorial disagreement was the use of a Mother Jones article citing the “dirty dozen of climate change”. This was a questionable article that HughD added to about a dozen articles. It was the subject of NPOV[67] and RSN[68] discussions and a number of editors including Arthur Rubin were involved. A range of related articles were noted in the NPOVN and RSN discussions. HguhD's additions began around August 18th. Because other editors, Arthur Rubin, Capitalismojo among others were involved in these edits I didn’t initially act on every page where HughD tried to insert this questionable reference. Thus while HughD wants to claim these as unique interactions, they are in fact all related to one issue, the insertion of a questionable source into many articles. In cases where HughD said I joined the article months later it was simply a case of others had previously reverted HughD’s edit. Rather than accepting the previous group consensus, he returned a month or so later and undid what the others had done. These aren’t examples of me following HughD to many new topics but rather restoring previous consensus related to a single citation used in a number of articles on a topic I was alread involved with. Articles include ones HughD mentioned, Coalition for Clean Coal, Constructive Tomorrow, Beacon Center, ExxonMobil and API articles. Basically that whole list of “he followed me” is actually related to a single topic. HughD's claim related to the ExxonMobil climate change controversy article is again a half truth. The climate change article was spun off from ExxonMobil in January. I was one of the editors involved in that spin off and using HughD's reasoning I could claim he followed me to the article because my first talk page edit was January 15th [69]. Hugh’s first edit to the article was Jan 22nd[70] and he first joined the talk page 2 days later. However, I am honest enough to see the EM climate change article as just an extension of the parent article. It would be dishonest if I claimed HughD followed me to EM-climate change article, as is claiming I followed him. We were both involved in the parent article's climate change section when it was spun off. Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Co. is the most significant lawsuit associated with the Ford Pinto case and is a closely related article as the one is pivotal in the telling of the other. Both Greglocock and I turned to the Grimshaw talk page before HughD[71] to try to engage HughD before we mane any edits to the article. In this case I made almost NO changes to HughD's edits rather I added additional material and restored that material when HughD moved/removed it. I guess using the ExxonMobil reasoning HughD followed me to the Grimshaw talk page. Hugh has attempted to make a big deal of the posts to his talk page. Please consider the nature of the posts. Some were required notifications (notice he doesn't mention that). Some were simply requesting that he please engage in talk page discussions. These were attempts to try to get HughD to the table, not attempts to antagonize. Quite unlike HughD falsely quoting me on his home page and then refusing to remove the content[72]. |
- Regardless of HughD's misleading accusations of past wrong, if I am as mean to him as he claims and hurt his editing enjoyment that much, why follow me to the automotive article space at all? I don't think a single editor has accused me of taking a bad step when editing the Pinto or Chrysler related articles (other than Hugh himself). It would again seem very unfair to sanction me for the disruptions Hugh has caused on these articles. Springee (talk) 03:55, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
Respectfully request the community please proceed with a close with the imposition of the above proposed two-way interaction ban, as the expressed consensus of uninvolved colleagues. Two-way interaction bans are simple to monitor and effective in preventing disruption. Enough is enough. It is long overdue. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 21:05, 2 April 2016 (UTC) Respectfully request imposition of the two-way interaction ban proposed above by uninvolved colleagues. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 14:51, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
Topic ban user User:HughD from Ford Pinto
User:HughD has been disruptively editing our Ford Pinto article. Could an admin review this discussion and see whether a topic ban would be appropriate? NickCT (talk) 21:52, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment The still-active discussion above (titled "Springee Campaigning") also concerns HughD and the pinto dispute. Just sayin' Fyddlestix (talk) 22:03, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
-
- @Fyddlestix: - Thanks. Yeah. I noticed. I think that discussion is discussing an interaction ban, right? I just think HughD should get topic banned from Ford Pinto. I and others think that HughD has to get topic banned from Ford Pinto. That justifies a second discussion, no? NickCT (talk) 22:07, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
Support banning User:HughD: It's not worth trying to edit the Ford Pinto article with HughD participating. He's basically destroyed any pretense of unbiased editing, and he continues to seriously distort the article.842U (talk) 17:42, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
Oppose a Tban, as the problem extends far beyond just one article or one topic. Conflict between HughD and Springee has made a mess on a much broader range of articles and talk pages, ranging from Americans for Prosperity to Chicago-style politics to Ford Pinto. Topic banning one or both editors from a single article is going to do nothing to fix the larger issue here. Fyddlestix (talk) 23:05, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Fyddlestix: - re "Topic banning one or both editors from a single article is going to do nothing to fix the larger issue here." - Maybe not. But it would be a start.... NickCT (talk) 07:08, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
Support with condition As noted above I don't agree with Fyddlestix in this case. HughD's 50 edits per day before the article was locked, refusal to accept opinions from 3rd party editors and the clear consensus among the other editors that HughD is a problem mean that at least this part of the discussion is not about me. That said, I proposed a two way voluntary interaction ban between HughD and myself that would also include voluntarily leaving the automotive pages in question. Thus it would result in HughD leaving the page but no sanctions would be levied against his account. Please note, tomorrow is a travel day for me and I will have limited web access Springee (talk) 03:14, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
Oppose The appropriate venue for the resolution of a content dispute is article talk, not a noticeboard. A civil disagreement regarding content, supported by noteworthy reliable sources, policy, and guideline, is not disruptive. Involved editors are respectfully requested to bring their article content proposals and best noteworthy reliable sources to Talk:Ford Pinto. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 14:22, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- @HughD: - This purpose of this conversation is not to discuss content. NickCT (talk) 14:48, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose per Fyddlestix's reasoning. Neither article nor the topic are the cause of the disruption. Removing an editor from it will not mitigate that disruption and only serve as a punitive measure. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 16:56, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- @EvergreenFir: - Not sure how removing a disruptive editor from a particular article would not mitigate the disruption that editor was creating on that article. Seems like it would mitigate it quite effectively! NickCT (talk) 17:40, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
-
- Like I said, I don't think the article is the issue. If HughD is being disruptive on Ford Pinto specifically and only on that article, I'd agree. But they're are other articles that be being simultaneously disrupted. A tban from one of those articles only makes no sense. From my reading of the edit histories the interaction of the two editors is the main problem, so I'd rather try an iban first and see if the disruption stops. It almost certainly won't stop just from a tban from Ford Pinto. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 17:49, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- @EvergreenFir: - I agree it isn't the main issue, but it's certainly part of the issue. Tackling it would be tackling part of the issue.... What if we don't get an interaction ban? Is Ford Pinto still to suffer? NickCT (talk) 18:29, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think the legitimate fear is that HughD or I would follow one another to yet another article and the cycle would repeat. An IBAN (voluntary or not) addresses part of the issue in that neither editor would engage in an edit war if they aren't allowed to interact. A standard IBAN would block Hugh and I from editing any article where we had previously interacted. That would stop HughD from editing the Pinto article. That he seems happy about such an outcome supports the view of several editors that he was only there to wikihound me. This is why I've proposed a modified IBAN with a March 1 interaction date. It would in effect rewind the clock while still protecting the current and future articles. Springee (talk) 19:11, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Please see our project's policy WP:IBAN. You wrote: "A standard IBAN would block Hugh and I from editing any article where we had previously interacted." You need not fear being unable to contribute to your articles. You are being asked by your colleagues to avoid interacting with HughD; the proposed interaction ban does not ask you to avoid any articles; our project's interaction ban policy involves no concept of "who was there first." Our project's interaction ban policy states that "A no-fault two-way interaction ban is often a quick and painless way to prevent a dispute from causing further distress or wider disruption." Please help prevent further distress and wider disruption. Please join uninvolved editors in support of the proposed interaction ban. It's for the best for you, for me, and for our project. Don't be afraid; if it doesn't work, I think you know how to use ANI. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 15:02, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think the legitimate fear is that HughD or I would follow one another to yet another article and the cycle would repeat. An IBAN (voluntary or not) addresses part of the issue in that neither editor would engage in an edit war if they aren't allowed to interact. A standard IBAN would block Hugh and I from editing any article where we had previously interacted. That would stop HughD from editing the Pinto article. That he seems happy about such an outcome supports the view of several editors that he was only there to wikihound me. This is why I've proposed a modified IBAN with a March 1 interaction date. It would in effect rewind the clock while still protecting the current and future articles. Springee (talk) 19:11, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- @EvergreenFir: - I agree it isn't the main issue, but it's certainly part of the issue. Tackling it would be tackling part of the issue.... What if we don't get an interaction ban? Is Ford Pinto still to suffer? NickCT (talk) 18:29, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Like I said, I don't think the article is the issue. If HughD is being disruptive on Ford Pinto specifically and only on that article, I'd agree. But they're are other articles that be being simultaneously disrupted. A tban from one of those articles only makes no sense. From my reading of the edit histories the interaction of the two editors is the main problem, so I'd rather try an iban first and see if the disruption stops. It almost certainly won't stop just from a tban from Ford Pinto. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 17:49, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment HughD's bad behavior might have been due to my presence at the Ford Pinto and Chrysler articles. That doesn't excuse his behavior at those articles. When the editors unanomously (minus HughD) request the blocking of an editor that has to mean something. Does anyone believe his talk page interactions don't violate WP:TEND? Regardless of why he chose to edit war and be disruptive the fact is he was. Conversely the editors involved with those articles have not accused me of any editorial violations and have supported me here.
- I find it disappointing that HughD seems intent on blood rather than an amicable agreement. Unless he thinks he is unable to adhere to a voluntary IBAN why request an official one? I would like to point out that if HughD’s involvement was calculated aggression as Safehaven86 suggests (and I agree) then his desire for an interaction ban would make sense. His participation on those pages, disruptive though it may be, would effectively block my participation on articles that I’ve been involved with for some time. I suspect this is why he seems to be campaigning for mutual sanctions.
- Regarding HughD's editing on the pages in question, HughD added 250 edits to the Pinto article alone in the ~10 days it was open. Several editors asked him to slow down and discuss changes and expressed concern in a 3RR complaint [73]. HughD’s behavior at Ford Pinto and Chrysler had many marks of WP:TEND editing.
List of TEND examples |
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|
- I think it is very clear that HughD has been detrimental to both articles. That he feels I might have been unfair to him in the past is no excuse for disruptive editing in (to him) new articles. I would prefer an automotive topic block but at least a block related to the Pinto and Chrysler topics. Springee (talk) 03:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- To the best of my knowledge, you have never commented in concurrence of an edit of mine; your wall of text above documents your obsession.
- You revert, without discussion, myself and others, claiming no consensus, even when the consensus against is as small as yourself:
- 28 August 2015 Springee undo of HughD at Chicago-style politics after 16 minutes with edit summary "...not developed with consensus. Please get consensus for this change"
- 8 September 2015 Springee revert of HughD at Halftime in America after 2 minutes with edit summary "Undue tag was removed without discussion or consent."
- Numerous additional diffs of this behavior available upon request. Please see WP:TEND: "One who deletes the pertinent cited additions of others." Our colleague Scoobydunk brought this behavior of yours to your attention and to the attention of our community on 14 September 2015 here at ANI in his report Reporting user:Springee for Hounding and Tendentious editing. Your least favorite essay is WP:Don't revert due solely to "no consensus".
- Then, when I propose specific neutral, relevant contributions at article talk, laid out supported by multiple noteworthy reliable sources with excerpts, you report that at ANI as tendentious! Your project is to ban HughD WP:NOTHERE.
- Adding pertinent, well-referenced content is not tendentious. Proposing well-referenced neutral relevant content at article talk is not tendentious. Disagreeing with you is not tendentious.
- Please support our colleagues in the interaction ban. It's what's best. You will be happier. Hugh (talk) 16:00, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
- No evidence of disruptive editing. Civil disagreement regarding article content, supported with citation to policy, guidelines, and multiple noteworthy reliable sources, is not disruptive. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:09, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
Springee's project
Oh, look. Yet another noticeboard wall of text on why HughD should be banned. I hope no one feels had for waiting for "traveling."
Springee's project is HughD. User:Springee is little more than a single purpose account, with just enough automotive and Southern Strategy for cover. Springee's article space percentage is 18%; this one essay is a larger contribution to Wikipedia than all his recent article space contributions combined. Springee followed me, to ExxonMobil, then to the POV split ExxonMobil climate change controversy, until ExxonMobil climate change controversy became his top edited article, and Chicago-style politics his fifth top edited article! Regulars to these noticeboards recognize Springee as a noticeboard wall-of-text specialist who perceives prestige in successful proposed sanctions.
Springee claims to be a humble automotive writer:
I had grown tired of dealing with HughD and wanted to move back into primarily automotive topics.
I respectfully ask my colleagues to support our colleague Springee in their self-actualization effort. Please take the HughD project away from them. Please support an interaction ban. We may enable a great flowering of high quality neutral automotive coverage in our project. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 14:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Question for HughD, if you think I've been so mean to you why did you follow me to the Pinto and Chrysler articles? I'm happy to agree to an interaction ban, we avoid mutual topics from prior to March 1 and agree to not interact with one another on future topics. Seems like an easy solution and we don't even need an admin to force it if we simply, mutually agree to it here and now. Are we in agreement? Springee (talk) 14:20, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
-
- If you had "voluntarily" stopped following me, 14 September 2015 when you were reported to ANI for following, or 18 October 2015 when Callanecc asked you to, we would not be here.
- The reporting editor, the reported editor, the proposer, and uninvolved commenters are in consensus here on the close: please put the interaction ban on the books for future reference. Thank you for your support. Hugh (talk) 14:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
-
-
- Please answer the question Hugh, why would you follow me to the Chrysler and Pinto articles if you wanted to be left alone? Springee (talk) 16:03, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Look, if you're both ok with a voluntary IBAN, great - let's do it. If both parties agree to that then there's not much more to be said. But the long walls of text and bold text arguing isn't doing either of you any favors here. You're just demonstrating that you can't work together without turning every conversation into a mutual vendetta. I understand that you both think the other isn't fit to edit Wikipedia and are fishing for stronger sanctions, or are at least trying to get recognition that you were "in the right," but that's very unlikely to happen here (assuming the following and goading stops now). Just take the Iban and let it go, before you exhaust the community's patience. Fyddlestix (talk) 16:34, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Respectfully request close, with community-initiated 1-year, two-way interaction ban, as proposed; under standard, simple well-understood, well-documented, easy to enforce terms as per widely accepted project policy WP:Interaction ban. Thank you to all for your time and attention and patience. Hugh (talk) 16:52, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Fyddlestix, thank you again for your prodigious patience in attempting to moderating this closure discussion with a gentle hand so we can all move on to improving the encyclopedia. You wrote: "you both think the other isn't fit to edit Wikipedia and are fishing for stronger sanctions"; may I clarify, I am not now nor have I ever sought to ban Springee from anything; I came here in good faith seeking nothing more than a warning regarding notification neutrality. Thank you again. Hugh (talk) 21:28, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm totally OK with a voluntary 2-way IBAN through April 1, 2017 applied to all article pages where we have interacted and with a March 1st exclusion deadline for future interactions. This will allow me to continue the work I was doing in automotive articles (Pinto, Chrysler) but forbid edits to articles where Hugh and I previously interacted (exp ExxonMobil) and forbids future edits (exp if HughD edits a future Coke family site I can not). I agree to the above. Springee (talk) 17:51, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Springee, please support the proposed 2-way interaction ban, without conditions, as requested above by our uninvolved colleagues. It is a reasonable, measured proposal. It is the simplest thing that might work. It is clearly what's best for you, for me, and for our project. It is a established remedy with a record of effectiveness in curbing disruption. You are in little position to dictate sidecar terms given your well-documented year-long history of following and harassment. We know you feel you deserve a topic ban on HughD after your efforts on your above walls of text, and we know you feel anyone about whom such walls of text can be written must be deserving of a topic ban. However, your recalcitrance on this proposal and your insistence on a topic ban are only serving to further demonstrate to our community your ownership issues and your obsession with your project of banning HughD. No one is trying to prevent you from contributing constructively to any articles. On behalf of our community, may I respectfully ask that you please accept the proposed 2-way interaction ban; you will be happier. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 14:21, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- I think only a modified IBAN would make sense. Modifications:
- Each is banned from articles where the other is a major contributor. If both are major contributors, they are both banned, but A may appeal if A claims that B is only a major contributor in distorting or deleting A's contributions.
- Each is permitted to make a brief statement about violations of the other one in appropriate forums. (This may have no effect, as i haven't seen a brief statement by either.) He may not make a followup statement unless asked. (Advice to all; don't ask.)
- — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:06, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- I think only a modified IBAN would make sense. Modifications:
- Springee, please support the proposed 2-way interaction ban, without conditions, as requested above by our uninvolved colleagues. It is a reasonable, measured proposal. It is the simplest thing that might work. It is clearly what's best for you, for me, and for our project. It is a established remedy with a record of effectiveness in curbing disruption. You are in little position to dictate sidecar terms given your well-documented year-long history of following and harassment. We know you feel you deserve a topic ban on HughD after your efforts on your above walls of text, and we know you feel anyone about whom such walls of text can be written must be deserving of a topic ban. However, your recalcitrance on this proposal and your insistence on a topic ban are only serving to further demonstrate to our community your ownership issues and your obsession with your project of banning HughD. No one is trying to prevent you from contributing constructively to any articles. On behalf of our community, may I respectfully ask that you please accept the proposed 2-way interaction ban; you will be happier. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 14:21, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Look, if you're both ok with a voluntary IBAN, great - let's do it. If both parties agree to that then there's not much more to be said. But the long walls of text and bold text arguing isn't doing either of you any favors here. You're just demonstrating that you can't work together without turning every conversation into a mutual vendetta. I understand that you both think the other isn't fit to edit Wikipedia and are fishing for stronger sanctions, or are at least trying to get recognition that you were "in the right," but that's very unlikely to happen here (assuming the following and goading stops now). Just take the Iban and let it go, before you exhaust the community's patience. Fyddlestix (talk) 16:34, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Please answer the question Hugh, why would you follow me to the Chrysler and Pinto articles if you wanted to be left alone? Springee (talk) 16:03, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Arthur Rubin: I think that's an excellent recommendation. + 1 on that. Safehaven86 (talk) 19:29, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'll support with the addition of my previous mentioned March 1 cut off. The cut of means if only one editor was involved with the article prior to March 1 they are allowed to remain involved. I'm 100% OK with HughD and I both agreeing to step away from previous mutual topics. Springee (talk) 19:48, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Two-way interaction bans, as proposed above by uninvolved colleagues, are simple and well-understood by our community and have an established history of curbing the disruptive following and harassment behavior you have demonstrated over the last year. Your attempt to negotiate terms in contrast is a bizarre custom page ban with an unprecedented boundary definition which in effect codifies your problematic article ownership issues in the form of a community sanction, and is nothing more than an attempt to distract our community from your edit history. "I was there first" does not matter on Wikipedia and our community is not going to start with you. Our community has substantial experience in sorting out interaction ban violation incidents and has absolutely no desire to get involved in helping you enforce your baroque conditions. Please see the above diffs: you have earned an interaction ban many times over, accept it with grace. Hugh (talk) 20:53, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'll support with the addition of my previous mentioned March 1 cut off. The cut of means if only one editor was involved with the article prior to March 1 they are allowed to remain involved. I'm 100% OK with HughD and I both agreeing to step away from previous mutual topics. Springee (talk) 19:48, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I will remind HughD that he has also "earned an interaction ban many times over." You both have. So stop. Just stop. The ever expanding wall of text here when the community long ago reached consensus on an IBAN only serves to further prove why an IBAN was needed. Wait for this discussion to be closed by an admin, then go your merry ways with your IBAN, and let the rest of us live in peace without having to read paragraphs upon paragraphs of the same thing over and over again. Safehaven86 (talk) 21:47, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
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Close requested
Been 4 days since last comment. Getting quite stale. Since there was !voting and I proposed an iban, I cannot close or archive this myself. Requesting an uninvolved admin look this over and close it. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:42, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- For transparency, HughD challenged the closure by Atsme here. Anmccaff reverted that here, which I then reverted here as I don't see anything wrong with HughD's challenge to the closure by a non-admin. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:13, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
When admins repeatedly give advice but don't take action in these lengthy debates (more time was even allowed in hopes the involved parties could work it out among themselves) and there's still no resolution, the discussion tends to lay idle which is why closing it seemed the best course of action. If the involved parties are still not satisfied, they can always take it to ArbCom but chances are, neither will like the outcome. Perhaps now an admin will do what needs to be done to put this puppy to bed. Atsme📞📧 20:43, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Discussion of the non-admin closure with the closer may be found at User talk:Atsme#Non-admin closure of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Springee campaigning. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 14:17, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- I think this should be closed as no proposed solution likely to be accepted by the community or by the parties. Hugh has stated he would not accept Springee's reasonable modification of the standard IBAN, and Springee would not accept the standard IBAN due to (Springee's perception) of the fact that Hugh edits articles edited by Springee in order to discredit Springee's edits, but not in the same section Springee is editing. There seems to be no traction in the general community for any specific IBAN, although there seems to be general agreement that an IBAN might be helpful.
- I suspect the non-admin closure was not a good idea, but nothing is going to happen here. I'm clearly involved, so I cannot close this, even if there were consensus for some action. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:50, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- "...no proposed solution likely to be accepted by the community or by the parties." I again clarify: I accept the above reasonable, measured, simple proposal of uninvolved colleagues: a two-way interaction ban, and I respectfully again beg community support for this straight-forward, proven effective proposal. Not sure how "acceptable to Springee" became a criteria, or how Springee is in any position to dictate terms, given the relentless record of following and harassment amply documented in copious diffs above. A close with no action is counter-indicated by the record. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 21:18, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
John Carter continuing to post on my talk page despite repeated warnings not to
Both John Carter and Hijiri88 are hereby banned from each other's talk pages on pain of a minmum one month ban. Such restriction applies if either editor is logged out. The only exception is that either may post on the other any required notication, such as an issue being raised at WP:ANI concerning them. John Carter and Hijiri88 informed of this. Mjroots (talk) 22:07, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
John Carter (talk · contribs) recently logged out and posted on my talk page, even though he knows I am uncomfortable with him posting there unless he is specifically required to do so. Almost a year ago, I told him several times to stay off the page, and he by-and-large obliged, but then in the past 24 hours he attempted to get around this by posting on my talk page while logged out (the IP is definitely him). His other recent (logged-in) edits indicate that he is following me.[106][107][108][109] Can I get an interaction ban? Or at least a warning to John Carter that following my edits and posting on my talk page while logged out is inappropriate? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
Addendum: Just thought I'd tag this on, as recent data seems not to have been fully convincing for some users. I noticed a while ago that John Carter almost never edits in the mainspace unless the article's title is "Bibliography of encyclopedias". In the last year he has made 23 edits to articles other than that, and of these 23, five of them were direct reverts of me, on an article he had never shown any interest in before. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:40, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- I just read those diffs and I don't see anything abusive or harassing. Can you point out to me where John has done anything inappropriate towards you? HighInBC 03:47, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- John Carter engaged in a pretty aggressive harassment campaign against me and User:Sturmgewehr88 between April and November 2015, but I don't want to discuss it. I am under an IBAN with another user involved in the case, and the whole story was pretty unpleasant to begin with. But its zenith was probably these two concurrent and baseless ANI threads he started against us.
- Anyway, I thought it was my prerogative to unilaterally ban John Carter from posting on my talk page if I am uncomfortable interacting with him -- isn't it? He has done the same to me. In this case he didn't just "forget", because he logged out to do so. Further, he followed me to WT:BIBLE, and while nothing in his comments either there or on my talk page was itself harassment, he knows I don't want him stalking my edits or my talk page and has continued to do so.
- Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:01, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- IP editor does appear to be John Carter. John Carter hadn't edited on the WikiProject:Bible since October 2015, whereas Hijiri88 has been rather active this past month. John then comments on the RfC one day after Hijiri ([110]). Indeed John Carter hadn't edited since January 14, 2016 until this RfC edit. My understanding is that if a user "bans" you from their talk page, editing on it outside of required notifications is considered HARASSMENT. That and the following to the RfC seems like HOUNDing to me. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:28, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- No comment on the ban, but the time frame you sort of hint at seems to be a key point here. Considering John Carter indeed hasn't edited since January until recently and the edits happened after the edits to the talk page, saying they " "logged out and posted on my talk page" and "logged out to do so" is unproven. It's just as likely they hadn't been logged in for a while. Particularly since it would be fairly dumb to use an IP who's last edit was to a case page involving and naming Hijiri88. Since Hijiri88 had asked them to stay away (regardless of what that should mean) and I guess there must have been historic disagreements to result in this, it's unfortunate John Carter didn't either log in or declare who they were. However in absence of better evidence there was any intentional attempt at hiding who they were, I don't think not being logged in is particularly relevant other than a firm reminder to John Carter that they should either login or make it clear who they are in the edit if they are going to get re-involved in previous disputes. Nil Einne (talk) 05:01, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne: The question of whether JC consciously logged out with the intention of avoiding detection is peripheral; I only mentioned it because otherwise someone would have asked me how I know the IP is him. I told JC to stay off my talk page and he came back, several times. His logged-in edits are almost as bad: he posted twice on a page he hadn't edited since June 2014 (subpages do not count), once in a thread I started, and once a thread someone else started about my proposal. I don't want this user posting on my talk page or following my edits, and I want an formal, mutual IBAN; John Carter said several times (admittedly last year) that he would be comfortable with such an IBAN; if a two-way IBAN is mutually acceptable, isn't this an open-shut case? Bringing up peripheral concerns about sockpuppetry is as far as I can tell pointless. (I did allude to my suspicions of deliberate sockpuppetry both on my talk page and in my notifications to JC, but I consciously avoided it in my OP comment here, because I knew it would turn into a red herring.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:52, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Hijiri88: If it's peripheral you should have chosen your words more careful. In your original comments here, you implied that JC had done it intentionally. As I said above you said "logged out and posted on my talk page" and "logged out to do so" which implies there was a delibrate obfuscation on the part of JC. Open and shut case doesn't excuse you making accusations with insufficient evidence and it was fair of me to point out you had done so. A simple example which doesn't make such accusations would be
- "recently posted on my talk page, even though he knows I am uncomfortable with him posting there unless he is specifically required to do so. Almost a year ago, I told him several times to stay off the page, and he by-and-large obliged, but then in the past 24 hours he did so while logged out (the IP is definitely him). His other recent (logged-in) edits indicate that he is following me.[111][112][113][114] Can I get an interaction ban? Or at least a warning to John Carter that following my edits and posting on my talk page is inappropriate?"
- You can easily come up with many different examples of wording which conveys the point. In other words I agree it's a red herring, as there's no reason why you can't mention the evidence, without accusing JC of intentionally logging out to post out your talk page when you have sufficient evidence to make such an accusations and where what evidence that does exist suggests it probably wasn't a delibrate action. But it's a red herring which you caused by your actions here at ANI.
- Nil Einne (talk) 05:48, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne: I know it was a poor choice of words, and I apologize. My only defense is that it was less a deliberate attempt to lead the reader than a Freudian slip ー I legitimately believed that evading detection was John Carter's intention, as indicated by my comments on my own talk page. I initially drafted the above OP comment with a lengthy discussion of why I think this, but then realized my case was still fairly weak, and would be pretty pointless to boot (an OB like John Carter isn't going to be blocked for one small instance of sockpuppetry). When I removed this discussion I guess I wasn't as thorough as I should have been. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:19, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Hijiri88: If it's peripheral you should have chosen your words more careful. In your original comments here, you implied that JC had done it intentionally. As I said above you said "logged out and posted on my talk page" and "logged out to do so" which implies there was a delibrate obfuscation on the part of JC. Open and shut case doesn't excuse you making accusations with insufficient evidence and it was fair of me to point out you had done so. A simple example which doesn't make such accusations would be
- @Nil Einne: The question of whether JC consciously logged out with the intention of avoiding detection is peripheral; I only mentioned it because otherwise someone would have asked me how I know the IP is him. I told JC to stay off my talk page and he came back, several times. His logged-in edits are almost as bad: he posted twice on a page he hadn't edited since June 2014 (subpages do not count), once in a thread I started, and once a thread someone else started about my proposal. I don't want this user posting on my talk page or following my edits, and I want an formal, mutual IBAN; John Carter said several times (admittedly last year) that he would be comfortable with such an IBAN; if a two-way IBAN is mutually acceptable, isn't this an open-shut case? Bringing up peripheral concerns about sockpuppetry is as far as I can tell pointless. (I did allude to my suspicions of deliberate sockpuppetry both on my talk page and in my notifications to JC, but I consciously avoided it in my OP comment here, because I knew it would turn into a red herring.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:52, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- No comment on the ban, but the time frame you sort of hint at seems to be a key point here. Considering John Carter indeed hasn't edited since January until recently and the edits happened after the edits to the talk page, saying they " "logged out and posted on my talk page" and "logged out to do so" is unproven. It's just as likely they hadn't been logged in for a while. Particularly since it would be fairly dumb to use an IP who's last edit was to a case page involving and naming Hijiri88. Since Hijiri88 had asked them to stay away (regardless of what that should mean) and I guess there must have been historic disagreements to result in this, it's unfortunate John Carter didn't either log in or declare who they were. However in absence of better evidence there was any intentional attempt at hiding who they were, I don't think not being logged in is particularly relevant other than a firm reminder to John Carter that they should either login or make it clear who they are in the edit if they are going to get re-involved in previous disputes. Nil Einne (talk) 05:01, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- IP editor does appear to be John Carter. John Carter hadn't edited on the WikiProject:Bible since October 2015, whereas Hijiri88 has been rather active this past month. John then comments on the RfC one day after Hijiri ([110]). Indeed John Carter hadn't edited since January 14, 2016 until this RfC edit. My understanding is that if a user "bans" you from their talk page, editing on it outside of required notifications is considered HARASSMENT. That and the following to the RfC seems like HOUNDing to me. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:28, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose IBAN I am not seeing anything mean spirited here. The links you give show John either talking about articles or explaining how Wikipedia works. You "banning him" from your talk page seems to be in response to reasonable comments. If we are to CBAN based on two people being in the same places then we need a lot more evidence than has been presented. HighInBC 15:07, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- WP:KEEPOFF is relevant here (though sadly underdeveloped even as far as essays go). Telling someone to keep off your user talk page is rarely helpful, and when done unreasonably, can lead to non-enforcement of that "ban". —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 15:12, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Indeed. If you don't have a good reason to tell someone to go away then it is hardly harassment if they say something to you later. Harassment involves being harassing, not just failing to obey some made up restraining order. In both of those links where you tell John to go away the comments being made are measured and reasonable. HighInBC 15:16, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
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- @HighInBC: He showed up at an ANI thread I started about his friend and deliberately misrepresented the dispute by pretending it was already under discussion on DRN. He engaged in off-wiki contact with ... someone who apparently really doesn't like me and then when I asked if it was the same site-banned user who had been posting my personal information all over the internet (and was at that time still actively engaged in emailing anyone who got in a dispute with me on Wikipedia, from a sock account -- email me if you want the details) he repeatedly misrepresented what I was saying as "of course someone without a publicly disclosed email must be engaged in sockpuppetry" (???) even though I explained my concern to him over and over again. He suddenly showed up on an article I was in the middle of rewriting and started trolling the hell out of me over one word in the lead, despite multiple users telling him to cut it out, and then when he didn't get his way on the talk page he opened an ANI thread (again: you say he was discussing article content, but ANI is not the place for that). Half the time I cannot make head or tail about what his beef is with me, and the only reason I can think of is that he is deliberately being antagonistic. When I told him to stay off my talk page he didn't until told more firmly to stay off, and then he came back again later, while logged out, and posted an inane non-sequitur apparently just to get another rise out of me (seriously -- look at what User:Curly Turkey and I were discussing, and then try to figure out what JC's contribution to the discussion was; if you can, then you understand the content of my talk page better than I do). And he has been stalking my edits to boot! What more evidence do you need? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:58, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- I wasn't convinced when Hijiri first started telling me that JC was hounding him, but after a couple of months of seeing him showing up everywhere—and often making bizarre comments like the one pointed out here—I'm convinced. I have no idea what a solution is, but I'm positive that he didn't show up at Hijiri's talk page to honestly be helpful—he obviously dislikes Hijirii too much. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:17, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
Oppose. More dispute resolution could be a good idea, perhaps with a mediator or request for comment format. Also, essentially agree with analysis by HighInBC, at DIFF, above. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 15:21, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Cirt: Dispute resolution about what? John Carter and I do not edit in the same areas, and even in those topics areas where there is a very slight overlap (I edit articles on biblical, Jewish and Christian topics, and JC very occasionally posts on these talk pages) the problem is not that we have a disagreement on content. John Carter followed me around for most of 2015 and reverted a bunch of my edits and caused massive ruckuses on talk pages and here on ANI, and I asked that he stay off of my talk page. He has refused to do so, while hypocritically imposing such a "stay away" restriction on me.[115][116][117][118][119] How on earth would "dispute resolution" solve an issue where there is no dispute other than a non-productive editor hounding a productive one? Further, if both John Carter and I want an IBAN (I think JC's last comment on the issue was I might also request an i-ban of him with me, but he might have said the same thing more recently), why should one not be put in place? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:03, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- I was thinking perhaps informally seeking out someone from the Wikipedia:Mediation Committee, but hopefully the comment from Drmies, below, will help clear things up and prevent problems in the future. — Cirt (talk) 05:14, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Proposal: Semi-protect Hijiri's TP longterm, officially warn John Carter that if he posts on Hijiri's TP again he will be blocked. Any discussion worth having can occur on article talk pages or other Wikipedia space. Softlavender (talk) 02:10, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- John Carter (talk · contribs), if that's you posting on Hijiri's talk page, please stop. You were asked not to and you have no choice but to obey. If you persist, you will be blocked--it counts as harassment. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 03:19, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
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- "You have no choice but to obey"? Such an authoritarian command has to be based on the editor being ordered to obey Wikipedia policy or standards, not on what an individual says, even if the individual is an administrator. Please cite the Wikipedia policy that backs up your command to obey. In absence of policy, or an interaction ban, or some other preexisting sanction, I do not think an administrator can make a "do this because I say so, or else" threat. While it might have been socially impolite for John Carter to have made the user page post (if he did it), the post itself had a legitimate purpose and was not offensive or harassing under the Wikipedia definitions of offense or harassment. I accept Hijiri 88 feels the post to be harassing (which should be reason enough for John Carter not to repeat it), but I think harassment as a sanctionable offense should not be based on an individual editor's standard of offense or hurt feelings, but on accepted group standards expressed through Wikipedia policy. Without some sort of harassment within the post's content, or an intent to harass through the act of posting, policy does not exist that allows an editor ignoring a request not to post on a user page to be blocked for not following that request not to post. Or as HighinBC put it "Harassment involves being harassing, not just failing to obey some made up restraining order". Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 00:08, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Agree with Softlavender and Drmies. People need to stay off other user's talk pages when requested to do so. I'm hoping HighInBC and MSGJ are taking note of this. - theWOLFchild 19:31, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- If you have something to say to me you are welcome to do so at my talk page. HighInBC 21:04, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- OK, will do. - theWOLFchild 16:29, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Saying "People need to stay off other user's talk pages when requested to do so" (a statement which I agree with) is very different from saying "People must stay off other user's talk pages when requested to do so". The latter is what Softlavender and Drmies appear to be saying, and I think it is not a position supported by Wikipedia policies. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 00:32, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- OK, will do. - theWOLFchild 16:29, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- If you have something to say to me you are welcome to do so at my talk page. HighInBC 21:04, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
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Oppose I-Ban, however...An I Ban seems like unnecessary overkill,. That said a request by an editor not to post on their talk page has always been treated as something close to posting a "No Trespassing" sign with your name on it. In all but the rarest of circumstances such a request should be scrupulously respected. Failing to do so absent a very compelling reason has generally been treated as a form of WP:HARASSMENT. It may not be their private property but the community has long recognized the right of editors to some degree of control over their own user and talk pages. If John has been posting on the OP's talk page after being asked not to, he needs to stop. Period. An apology, on this page, not the talk page, would not be out of order. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:51, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I am striking my opposition to an I Ban. Based on more recent comments from both parties I now believe it appropriate. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:57, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- I should specify that the reason John Carter is not supposed to post on my talk page is that he and two or three other users put me through a lot of crap last year, to the point where I started to hate logging in and seeing that I had new messages, because I was worried about what new trickery they were up to. I'm largely over that "complex" by now, but it was still very disturbing to log on one morning last week and find that not only was John Carter back editing (and therefore potentially back to inflict more nonsense on me) but had posted on my talk page while logged out. John Carter knows the crap he put me through, and knows I don't like interacting with him, and he has been harassing me at this point for over a year. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:30, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- None of this is relevant. The only issue here is that it is alleged that he has posted on your talk page after you asked him not to. That's it. -Ad Orientem (talk) 13:49, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Comment This seems to me an attempt at continuing the irrational and frankly paranoid behavior that caused Hijiri to be sanctioned in the first place. I would also point out that there was no visible attempt on his part to notify me of this discussion on my user talk page, which is, actually, required, even though I have had to twice request him before to stay off my user talk page, and he seems to continue to ignore those requests. (Note: Actually, that is wrong. He did give such a notice, but started the post with a gratuitous and unnecessary request, which I believe could it itself not unreasonably be seen as being a continuation of his apparent absolute refusal to abide by my already repeated request to stay off my user talk page. Also, I suppose, maybe that requirement does not apply to people as exalted as Hijiri. I believe the issue here is the ongoing pattern of what I consider frankly insane conduct on the part of Hijiri, and I believe that it might not be unreasonable to request some sort of sanctions against him for this conduct on his part. I commented on two discussions at the talk page of the Bible project, because I watch that page and the WP:X noticeboard, where I saw the discussion listed. Of late, I have been spending most of my time gathering material for pages for Category:WikiProject prospectuses and Category:WikiProject libraries, and it is easier to do that without distractions. But I have reason to believe that the ongoing irrational behavior of the original poster here could be seen as being very reasonably grounds for further administrative action against him, particularly considering his refusal to adhere to my repeated request to stay off my own user talk page and the grossly inflammatory and unnecessary nature of the comment he added to the ANI notice despite having been told twice already to stay off my user talk page. Also, if anyone is interested, I would be willing to forward to them an e-mail I received from Hijiri, after my repeated requests to him to stay off my userpage, whose sole purpose seems to have been to tell me he wouldn't be stupid enough to do something. Evidently, sending such an e-mail to get around my request to no longer receive comments from him is something he doesn't consider so stupid. John Carter (talk) 14:20, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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- There's a lot of self-contradiction, baseless insults, and questionable "facts" in the above long comment (which I finally mustered the courage to read from start to finish), but I'm going to limit myself to replying to the last part. I didn't email John Carter "to get around [his] request to no longer receive comments from [me]", as I had, frankly, forgotten about that request (I have, nonetheless, not posted anything on his talk page except what was required in some six months). This will be backed up by the content of the email (I specifically said I didn't want my dispute with him to clutter up any more of an ANI thread about Curly Turkey and CurtisNaito; I wanted to avoid posting here, not on John Carter's talk page).o there is no misunderstanding, I will publish the content of the email below. There is nothing in it embarrassing to me, but publishing it here will clearly prove John Carter's above claim wrong. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:00, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
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E-mail from Hijiri88 to John Carter, 2015/10/22, Thu 11:05; the edits to which I refer are here |
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John Carter, I'm emailing you because I don't want this discussion to clutter up the Wikipedia namespace or anywhere else more than it has to. I don't expect you to respond to this email, nor do I particular desire such. Your repeatedly asserting that I was the collapser at ANI is disruptive. The collapser was very clearly NOT me, but Curly Turkey, who has nothing whatsoever to do with ArbCom and (unlike CurtisNaito) doesn't even want to be involved. For one thing, the collapse title referred to my initial response which barely mentioned ArbCom as "acrimonious bickering" over and unrelated ArbCom case -- something that clearly I would never use to describe my own post. You accusing me of "assuming bad faith" by merely stating the facts, while at the same time actively assumed bad faith even though you must have known better (you claimed you had reverted the collapsing several times, so you must have known who you were reverting) is deeply hypocritical and very disruptive. I'm going to forward this email to CurtisNaito and Yunshui (who I know is on a wikibreak but he's an Arbitrator with whom I have had prior dealings, both positive and negative, and believe to be a fair neutral observer). Cheers! Hijiri88 |
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- At the risk of hurting my own mental health (again), I'm not going to respond to or even read most of what I guess is another string of lies and deception in the above long comment, but in his edit summary he insinuated that I didn't notify him of this discussion, an obvious lie. I'm done putting up with your bullshit, John Carter. Stay the hell off my talk page, stop following my edits, and stop talking shit about me all over the project (and via email). Just stop. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:45, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Hijiri, to my eyes, the single source of bullshit here is you. First, despite your evincing what some might see as your opinions to the contrary, you are not in divine, absolute control of everything. You cannot demand that everyone do exactly what you say, while at the same time acting in the irrational and counterproductive way you so regularly do, which can also be seen by your similar refusal to address the concerns of myself and another in the ArbCom case which led to your current sanctions. Refusing to deal with reality does not make it go away. I am more than willing to see the end of your own paranoic ranting myself, and have been since the first time I told you to stay off my user talk page. Under the circumstances, I think the most reasonable thing to be done here would be for you to display the capacity to engage in reasonable conduct yourself, something which I think has been rather visibly lacking from you for some time. John Carter (talk) 15:01, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Here you go folks, two characteristic examples of the language of John Carter. Notice first that he missed the notification of this discussion on his talk page and decries Hijiri for it. He also bashes Hijiri's characher numerous times (irrational, paranoid, insane, etc) and flat-out lies about Hijiri's past editing and sanctions to make him out to be a villain (can he not tell the difference between Chinese and Japanese after being so deeply involved in that dispute?). He acts like this is all about him being a victim, never recognizing that this is about him posting on Hijiri's talk page. He demands numerous times that Hijiri must stay off of his talk page, but later accuses Hijiri of thinking he is God for demanding the same! And of course he finishes with a holier-than-thou sermon on conduct. I just wonder if anyone else took the time to read all of his posts and notice the same things that show up in pretty much all of his posts. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 16:02, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Of course, it surprises nobody that — Preceding unsigned comment added by John Carter (talk • contribs) 16:27, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Here you go folks, two characteristic examples of the language of John Carter. Notice first that he missed the notification of this discussion on his talk page and decries Hijiri for it. He also bashes Hijiri's characher numerous times (irrational, paranoid, insane, etc) and flat-out lies about Hijiri's past editing and sanctions to make him out to be a villain (can he not tell the difference between Chinese and Japanese after being so deeply involved in that dispute?). He acts like this is all about him being a victim, never recognizing that this is about him posting on Hijiri's talk page. He demands numerous times that Hijiri must stay off of his talk page, but later accuses Hijiri of thinking he is God for demanding the same! And of course he finishes with a holier-than-thou sermon on conduct. I just wonder if anyone else took the time to read all of his posts and notice the same things that show up in pretty much all of his posts. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 16:02, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Hijiri, to my eyes, the single source of bullshit here is you. First, despite your evincing what some might see as your opinions to the contrary, you are not in divine, absolute control of everything. You cannot demand that everyone do exactly what you say, while at the same time acting in the irrational and counterproductive way you so regularly do, which can also be seen by your similar refusal to address the concerns of myself and another in the ArbCom case which led to your current sanctions. Refusing to deal with reality does not make it go away. I am more than willing to see the end of your own paranoic ranting myself, and have been since the first time I told you to stay off my user talk page. Under the circumstances, I think the most reasonable thing to be done here would be for you to display the capacity to engage in reasonable conduct yourself, something which I think has been rather visibly lacking from you for some time. John Carter (talk) 15:01, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- At the risk of hurting my own mental health (again), I'm not going to respond to or even read most of what I guess is another string of lies and deception in the above long comment, but in his edit summary he insinuated that I didn't notify him of this discussion, an obvious lie. I'm done putting up with your bullshit, John Carter. Stay the hell off my talk page, stop following my edits, and stop talking shit about me all over the project (and via email). Just stop. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:45, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
Proposed Sanctions
- Support I Ban for both parties and propose 30 day block for Hijiri88 for grossly uncivil commentary on this forum and using it as platform for attacking another editor in a manner that is completely out of bounds. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:57, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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- @Ad Orientem: Yes, I said "bullshit". This may have been a bad call. I apologize for any offense my use of foul language caused. This was not my intention. John Carter just has a habit of bringing out the worst in me (indeed, he seems to enjoy doing so on a semi-regular basis), which is why I told you of all the nonsense he put me through last year. I should have said "obvious and demonstrable lies". But John Carter said the same about what I said, including the word "bullshit" (immediately above). The question is whose accusations are demonstrable. I have provided evidence that John Carter has made up stuff about me (I'll search for the diff where I specifically pointed out to him before he posted below that he and I interacted on the Historicity of Jesus talk page back in 2014, if you need it). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:16, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- You can't be blocked just for using profanity such as that. If that were case, half the admins here wouldn't be admins due to massive block logs. - theWOLFchild 10:09, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Ad Orientem: Yes, I said "bullshit". This may have been a bad call. I apologize for any offense my use of foul language caused. This was not my intention. John Carter just has a habit of bringing out the worst in me (indeed, he seems to enjoy doing so on a semi-regular basis), which is why I told you of all the nonsense he put me through last year. I should have said "obvious and demonstrable lies". But John Carter said the same about what I said, including the word "bullshit" (immediately above). The question is whose accusations are demonstrable. I have provided evidence that John Carter has made up stuff about me (I'll search for the diff where I specifically pointed out to him before he posted below that he and I interacted on the Historicity of Jesus talk page back in 2014, if you need it). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:16, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- weak support I-ban and sanctions as per the above, although I have questions about how it might deal with questions of effectively banning individuals from discussions. Specifically, Hijiri has only since his topic ban from Chinese topics shown any substantive interest in Christianity, and honestly I can't rule out the possibility that his more or less newfound interest in that topic might not be a form of "reprisal" on his part. John Carter (talk) 15:01, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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- How am I supposed to be civil when John Carter keeps lying about me like this? I have been editing Christian topics for years and I have never been topic-banned from Chinese topics! The above looks like a not-so-subtle way to try to get me sanctioned for violating a topic ban to which I was never subject, as I have started editing much more in a certain topic (Chinese culture) since my recent topic ban. John Carter has been making my Wikipedia life miserable for a year, and now I am being threatened with a block simply for reporting on it and responding in a (pretty reasonable, given the circumstances) fashion to his continued harassment. If someone can demonstrate that John Carter has not been lying about me and harassing me for the last year, including in this very thread, please do so. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:10, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Civility is not optional. If you are unable or unwilling to conduct yourself with a minimal level of decorum then you might want to consider finding another project to work on. Because the kind of invective you have been throwing around here is not acceptable and if you persist in this behavior it is not going to end well. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:16, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- I said "bullshit". John Carter also said "bullshit". John Carter told a long string of lies about me, with the intention of bringing sanctions down on me. He has not provided any evidence of his accusations, and I cannot be expected to let them stand. I have already apologized for my use of foul language. But the harassment and pathological lying also need to be dealt with. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:18, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- It is becoming increasingly clear that you just don't get it, and I am starting to doubt if that is correctable. Civility is not limited to the use of gutter language. I stand by my recommendations above and am going to move on unless something actually new comes up on this thread. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:23, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Is it to do with me accusing John Carter of lying? I provided evidence. Is it to do with my "thanking" you for an edit that appeared to be dismissive of me? I didn't take it that way -- you made a reasonable point, and I didn't see the point of continuing discussion further beyond indicating that I appreciated what you said. Is it to do with my going on and on about the mental trauma John Carter put me through? You are supposed to assume I am telling the truth, and if you want more evidence, I can provide it to you (preferably by email, for the reasons outlined below). Is it because of something else I said? If so I will try to work on it, but simply saying I am uncivil and linking to a policy page I have probably read a dozen times over over the years is not helpful. I know I have had a lapse in civility. It is because John Carter has put me through a tremendous amount of ... painful experiences, just remembering it makes me very upset, and has already caused me to lose several hours of sleep over the past week (fortunately I'm a school teacher in Japan and am on holiday at the moment). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:17, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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- (e-c) And the record of the Arbitration case from last year at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Catflap08 and Hijiri88 and related pages rather clearly demonstrates that throwing invective, possibly virtually any time anyone questions him, seems to be perhaps one of Hijiri's more persistent habits. And the primary b.s I see being thrown is still from Hijiri, and his as yet completely unsupported accusations about me. I am more than willing to forward the e-mail to anyone who requests it, other than Hijiri of course, for verification. Also, as per the evidence page I linked to above, Hijiri himself has a rather well documented history of making life miserable for others, including accusations of sock-puppetry from the beginning of editing, as per TH1980's evidence on that page. I believe that much of this is due to his repeated insistence that someone who has contacted me regarding his conduct is a sockpuppet of someone he had previous trouble with. For what it is worth, I myself went through every step I could to determine independently the identity of that person, and find that the likelihood of his being the same person as Hijiri's earlier stalker is pretty much nonexistent. I also have some reason to believe that the ArbCom itself was aware of the identity of the person I had been in e-mail contact with at the time of the arbitration, and there is nothing in the results of the arbitration to indicate that they considered Hijiri's allegations of sockpuppetry by his former stalker worthy of direct consideration. And, if someone wants to talk about unsubstantiated allegations, the worst ones in this matter are Hijiri's repeated insistence that, apparently, only that former stalker could ever disagree with him. A position which, I believe, is ridiculous on the face of it. Regarding use of "gutter language," I think even a former arb somewhere has said on a userspace page that in at least some rather extreme cases it is appropriate to call something "bullshit," or "ridiculous," or similar, and I personally believe that discussion of Hijiri's conduct and apparent deeply-held beliefs may well be one of them. John Carter (talk) 15:31, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Ad Orientem: Yes, civility is more than just the use of "gutter language"; does calling someone "insane" breech civility? Or any of the character-bashing John Carter has continuously done since his first post? Or that inflammatory lie that Hijiri never editied Christian articles before and got TBANned from Chinese topics? That last one especially, considering the deep involvement he had with Hijiri, calls either his competency or integrity into question. He should share any sanction placed on Hijiri. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 16:17, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Honestly, I would think that in this particular case, when I personally very, very much believe the individual in question is paranoic, which generally qualifies as insanE, i personally would not think so. In this case, it is the most accurate, if blunt, description of the individual in discussion possible. And it will be noted in the numerous previous discussions regarding Hijiri that roughly synonymous words have rather often been used to describe Hijiri. I guess it should also be noticed that Sturmgewehr88, whom others have in the past accused of engaging in almost knee-jerk defense of Hijiri on a regular basis in the past, keeps up one of his habits, of himself making accusations without any evidence whatsoever. Also, I think it would be interesting to anyone involved to see him comment, I forget where, in the ArbCom case to the effect that he couldn't find anything which indicates people are responsible for their own actions here. Such a comment might be very interesting to note in this instance. Also noting the obvious and rather transparent inflammatory lie made by SG above, in which he grossly misrepresents my statement to indicate that I said Hijiri has never edited in the field before. I challenge him to, before engaging in further hysterical accusations, to perhaps read the comments of others and not misrepresent them. I said he has shown litle interest in the field, not that he never edited it before. In my history with you, SG, I have to say that I have yet to see you demonstrate much if any capacity for engaging in useful discussion youself, and that you have, as per an e-mail you sent me which I forwarded to ArbCom in the case mentioned above, had to seek help from Hijiri before starting an ANI in his defense. I also note that SG has had to be told to stay off my user talk page twice as well, apparently, like Hijiri, not being perhaps bright enough to understand it the first time, which might be yet another common characteristic beyond the 88 that they share. John Carter (talk) 16:27, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- making accusations without any evidence whatsoever John Carter, just drop it already. Ample evidence has been provided that I edited Christianity- and Bible-related topics long before my recent topic ban, and even interacted with you on such pages, and that my recent topic ban is on Japanese, not Chinese topics. Maybe you just forgot about all of this, but your continuing to claim that you were not forgetful but in fact correct in your accusations indicates that you are acting in bad faith. Why did you choose to randomly replace "Japanese" with "Chinese"? Why specifically "Chinese"? Unlike Christianity/Bible articles, I actually hadn't been editing China-related articles with any frequency before December. Were you following my recent edits and planning to get me blocked for violating an imaginary topic ban on Chinese topics? Did you really think the blocking admin wouldn't review what my topic ban actually says before blocking me? And did you really think you could get away with this blatant lying?
- And could someone please explain to me why I am the one being threatened with a CIVIL block when John Carter says things like I personally very, very much believe the individual in question is paranoic, which generally qualifies as insanE and insulting the intelligence of other users (not being perhaps bright enough to understand it the first time, which might be yet another common characteristic beyond the 88 that they share)
- Also, I'm not going to read much into it, but John Carter is aware that false accusations of neo-Nazism have been made against myself and Sturmgewehr88 because of our username. John Carter is perhaps not aware that other users have been blocked for two months for calling me a Nazi. I was logged out at the time, though -- I was not editing logged in because of a chilling email I received from another user who has also since been indefinitely blocked by Drmies. I don't see what benefit JC sees in bringing up our usernames yet again. (Also, I wanted to point out yet another incidence of me editing Bible-related articles in May 2014. Thing is, I think John Carter and I actually agree on most articles related to Christianity, so I really don't understand why he refuses to cooperate with me, and instead insists on denying that I ever edited articles related to Christianity, when he knows that's an argument he can't possibly win. Also, note that in the thread linked, I indicate that I am intimately aware with the contents of Christine Hayes' 20-hour lecture series on the Old Testament. I sure went to a lot of effort to cover up the fact that I'm not really interested in Christianity/Judaism/Bible-related topics, what with watching an re-watching YaleCourses video series over a year before my conflict with John Carter even started. Apparently I have magical foresight and am so obsessed with wikistalking John Carter that I sunk hundreds of hours into intense research of the topics John Carter is interested in and I am only pretending to be interested in.)
- Also, can I add that calling WikiProject Bible -- and particular discussion of the Hebrew Bible -- a "Christian" topic is Christocentric and offensive to Jews? I know a lot of Christians (and non-Christians who live in Christian countries) tend to forget that that the Hebrew Bible, including the Book of Psalms, is a Jewish and not a Christian text, so this is probably a good faith mistake, but I would ask John Carter to kindly stop using this language.
- Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:55, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- This appears to be becoming yet another attempt by Hijiri88 to post incredibly long wall-of-words comments without directly addressing the concerns or statements of others, something that has been repeatedly noted as being almost standard operating procedure from him. I do not remember having ever said you never edited articles relating to Christianity, although that now seems to be two people who are making that accusation. I remember having said you didn't edit them, and, honestly, your record of editing history seems to indicate you don't edit them frequently, perhaps less frequently than some other topics. Granted, it is always hard to respond to someone who states in their own responses that they haven't actually necessarily bothered to read the comments to which they are responding and/or will not address the matters those comments raise. And, for what it is worth, personally, at least in the context of this site, I don't particularly give a damn about my own opinions regarding Christianity, although I find it interesting that you appear to be indicating that such is my motivating purpose in editing the topic. My interest is in getting the material as encyclopedic as possible, although I do note the rather apparent attempt to impugn my motivations in your statement. Regarding the completely irrelevant and off-topic comment about indicating that I consider the Bible "Christocentric", well, I noticed that discussion because it was and I think still is listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard, which I think I mentioned. Jumping to such unfounded allegations as that one is indicative to me of perhaps some people attempting to raise completely irrelevant and unfounded aspersions and insinuations for no readily identifiable purpose. I find it remarkable that once again Hijiri is jumping to conclusions about the motivations of others, a rather repeated habit of his. And, regarding my obvious and apparent mistake in the Japanese/Chinese statement above, I made a mistake there, based on bad memory. Despite Hijiri88's apparent belief to the contrary, other people do at times make mistakes, and cross-examination of others or seeking to find "hidden motives" to determine some conjectural "deeper motivation" where there isn't necessarily any such motivation is a rather frequently noted characteristic of the paranoid. However, my apologies in making an honest mistake. John Carter (talk) 17:21, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Honestly, I would think that in this particular case, when I personally very, very much believe the individual in question is paranoic, which generally qualifies as insanE, i personally would not think so. In this case, it is the most accurate, if blunt, description of the individual in discussion possible. And it will be noted in the numerous previous discussions regarding Hijiri that roughly synonymous words have rather often been used to describe Hijiri. I guess it should also be noticed that Sturmgewehr88, whom others have in the past accused of engaging in almost knee-jerk defense of Hijiri on a regular basis in the past, keeps up one of his habits, of himself making accusations without any evidence whatsoever. Also, I think it would be interesting to anyone involved to see him comment, I forget where, in the ArbCom case to the effect that he couldn't find anything which indicates people are responsible for their own actions here. Such a comment might be very interesting to note in this instance. Also noting the obvious and rather transparent inflammatory lie made by SG above, in which he grossly misrepresents my statement to indicate that I said Hijiri has never edited in the field before. I challenge him to, before engaging in further hysterical accusations, to perhaps read the comments of others and not misrepresent them. I said he has shown litle interest in the field, not that he never edited it before. In my history with you, SG, I have to say that I have yet to see you demonstrate much if any capacity for engaging in useful discussion youself, and that you have, as per an e-mail you sent me which I forwarded to ArbCom in the case mentioned above, had to seek help from Hijiri before starting an ANI in his defense. I also note that SG has had to be told to stay off my user talk page twice as well, apparently, like Hijiri, not being perhaps bright enough to understand it the first time, which might be yet another common characteristic beyond the 88 that they share. John Carter (talk) 16:27, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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- It is becoming increasingly clear that you just don't get it, and I am starting to doubt if that is correctable. Civility is not limited to the use of gutter language. I stand by my recommendations above and am going to move on unless something actually new comes up on this thread. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:23, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- I said "bullshit". John Carter also said "bullshit". John Carter told a long string of lies about me, with the intention of bringing sanctions down on me. He has not provided any evidence of his accusations, and I cannot be expected to let them stand. I have already apologized for my use of foul language. But the harassment and pathological lying also need to be dealt with. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:18, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Civility is not optional. If you are unable or unwilling to conduct yourself with a minimal level of decorum then you might want to consider finding another project to work on. Because the kind of invective you have been throwing around here is not acceptable and if you persist in this behavior it is not going to end well. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:16, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- How am I supposed to be civil when John Carter keeps lying about me like this? I have been editing Christian topics for years and I have never been topic-banned from Chinese topics! The above looks like a not-so-subtle way to try to get me sanctioned for violating a topic ban to which I was never subject, as I have started editing much more in a certain topic (Chinese culture) since my recent topic ban. John Carter has been making my Wikipedia life miserable for a year, and now I am being threatened with a block simply for reporting on it and responding in a (pretty reasonable, given the circumstances) fashion to his continued harassment. If someone can demonstrate that John Carter has not been lying about me and harassing me for the last year, including in this very thread, please do so. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:10, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
This appears to be becoming yet another attempt by Hijiri88 to post incredibly long wall-of-words comments without directly addressing the concerns or statements of others Can you give a specific example? Anyway, you said Sturmgewehr88 made accusations without evidence, and I provided evidence backing up everything Sturmgewehr88 said. The only way you could not have noticed this is if you didn't read Sturmgewehr88's remark before accusing him of "making accusations without any evidence whatsoever". Please actually provide some evidence of the endless string of accusations you are making against me. I have gone above and beyond what should be expected of me, given the restrictions that are already placed on me giving detailed descriptions of our prior interactions. Your first comment in this (former) sub-section consisted of a single massive lie, and both Sturmgewehr88 and I called you out on it. You have been dodging the question by claiming it was a "mistake" to confuse "Japan" for "China", but you still have not addressed the elephant in the room -- that you accused me of "following you" to "Christianity articles", even though I have been more active than you in contributing to those articles for years. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 17:48, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Of course you provided evidence. As I think can be seen from the e-mail received by me which he forwarded to me, which I myself forwarded to ArbCom, just like in that exchange, you provided the evidence for him to post. This seems to me to very, very seriously raise questions whether he acts on his own particularly often, or whether he simply plays the role of a sort of meatpuppet for you. John Carter (talk) 22:01, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- For the record, John Carter, I was well aware of this discussion well before you were, and had you not posted in the manner that you did, I may well have not posted here at all. I already know that no matter what anyone says or does, you'll continue to character-bash Hijiri and I (and anyone else you don't like for that matter), you'll continue to be a blatant hypocrite (complaining about WP:TLDR in a TLDR post, seriously?), and you'll continue to, in the popular term of the day, spout bullshit. As in 99% of the ANI threads involving John Carter, this one will become a monstrous wall of text that leads to nowhere but the archives. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 21:32, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, the evidence is I think rather clear that dedfending Hijiri88 is one of your primary purposes in Wikipedia. I am frankly amazed by your comment above that you seem to think it surprising that someone respond to an ANI thread against them. I once again note, although a bit more explicitly this time, that, at least so far as I can see, you have rarely if ever demonstrated any particular grasp of policies and guidelines, no more than Hijiri88 anyway, and that your comment above about how I am engaging in character-bashing in your eyes, which I personally think as the person making the comments in question are more evaluation of the conduct of that editor and the dubious rationality of many of his actions, that your own comment above is to my eyes a much clearer attempt at character-bashing. And, once again, I note how both you and he had to be told to stay off my own user talk page twice by me, which can be seen by the archives of my talk page and your own, and that this could raise some questions regarding basic competency on the part of both of you. John Carter (talk) 22:01, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Comment I would be tempted to believe that Hijiri88 would accept an IBAN, if it wasn't for the fact that he appears to have difficulty keeping to them (three breaches of previous Iban)]. My two-penn'orth. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 15:27, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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- @User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi: I emailed you, as I am not at liberty to respond to the above on-wiki, but I will say that one needs to examine the context -- at least one of those violations was because of frustration that the other party had violated the IBAN by reverting my edits, and I was not able to get any traction by reporting on ANI because John Carter showed up and derailed the discussion multiple times. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:37, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Unfortunately am unable to access emails atm. It seems rather bollocks not to be able to use an ANI as neutral ground- in this case, to be able to respond to my comment! Which may, or may not, be unfounded. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 15:46, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- This is a discussion of a potential IBAN between me and John Carter. You referred to one or two prior IBANs, one of which is still in effect. I can tell you that (despite what John Carter said in 2015) Tristan noir was the only one who violated my IBAN with him back in 2013, and Drmies apologized fairly quickly for falling for Tristan noir's fabricated "incident" in which I supposedly violated it. I emailed you the details of some of my later blocks related to the other (still in effect) IBAN, at least one of which was fairly similar. I am not allowed discuss the other party or their actions on-wiki, and therefore am not able to give you the details. Suffice to say the other party reverted my edits, I reported on AN, John Carter derailed the discussion, and (much later, after the same thing happened) I reverted back in frustration. There was a lot more to it, though. Please read my email if you get a chance. If we were discussing the IBAN in question, I could go into detail (but I don't want to -- again, just remembering all the stuff John Carter and his amazing friends put me through causes me to lose sleep). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:17, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Unfortunately am unable to access emails atm. It seems rather bollocks not to be able to use an ANI as neutral ground- in this case, to be able to respond to my comment! Which may, or may not, be unfounded. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 15:46, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- @User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi: I emailed you, as I am not at liberty to respond to the above on-wiki, but I will say that one needs to examine the context -- at least one of those violations was because of frustration that the other party had violated the IBAN by reverting my edits, and I was not able to get any traction by reporting on ANI because John Carter showed up and derailed the discussion multiple times. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:37, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support IBAN as John Carter clearly has no intention of stopping following Hijiri around. Oppose block for being utterly petty and serving no conceivable purpose—shame on the proposer for proposing something so pointlessly disruptive. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:22, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- I find the above comment more than a little ridiculous myself, as it seems to be implying that taking part in an RfC on the talk page of a WikiProject I regularly consult and taking part in an ANI discussion about me is in some way following Hijiri88 around. John Carter (talk) 23:36, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- "Regularly consult" meaning that the last time you posted there was two years ago? Seriously? Further, how do your explain your continued activity on my talk page, and you do you explain your mysterious Freudian slip? In the half-dozen ANI threads you started on me requesting that I be TBANned from "Japanese culture", and in the ArbCom case where you appear to have requested the same (most of what you wrote was apparently in the form of emails to the committee, so I can't be sure), you don't seem to have ever even once accidentally written it as "Chinese culture", but now a few days after my writing an article on a Chinese topic and my commenting on WikiProject China about a month ago, you suddenly make this "mistake"? You were clearly following my edits. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:14, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- it seems to be implying that taking part in an RfC—it implies no such thing—I don't even know what RfC you're talking about. I'm talking about you following Hijiri around and making a nuisance of yourself. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 06:36, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- I find the above comment more than a little ridiculous myself, as it seems to be implying that taking part in an RfC on the talk page of a WikiProject I regularly consult and taking part in an ANI discussion about me is in some way following Hijiri88 around. John Carter (talk) 23:36, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support IBAN and Oppose block, both apply to both editors, two-way IBAN. It is most unfortunate, to be sure, but John Carter (talk · contribs) himself commented in support of the IBAN, and after my prior initial comment, unfortunately, the tone of the rhetoric appears to only have significantly degraded, on both sides of the aisle. — Cirt (talk) 22:28, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Regarding the nature of comments, I once again urge all involved to see the history of comments by Hijiri as presented in the Arb case, which indicates to me that degraded discussion is the norm in any discussion in which Hijiri88 feels challenged. My one reservation about an i-ban is that there does seem to be some reason to think Hijiri88 might be capable of making some useful contributions in the topic of Christianity and the Bible, particularly of the early Christian era and what is sometimes called the intertestamental period. He is currently banned from his most favored topic area, as per the ArbCom ruling. Honestly, if he could get around the paranoic ideation he rather regularly seems to indulge in, he could I think be a reasonable contributor in the Biblical/Christian/Jewish field, and I wouldn't want to see that ended. At the same time, however, the fairly long history of paranoic ideation on his part does raise concerns in my eyes that there may be no reason to think that such thinking will change, and, possibly by extension, that his own habit of stalking others, including me and the currently inactive Catflap08, as can be found supported in the ArbCom case, raises questions about whether that stalking behavior on his part will continue, along with his fairly regularly demonstrated extremely emotional responses. There is still a huge amount of missing and underdeveloped material in that field, and I would welcome seeing it developed, but I have very serious questions whether the problematic conduct he has rather regularly displayed in regards to many people will be a driving force in his own contributions in that area. John Carter (talk) 23:36, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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- In this case, we actually have a very handy control. Before taking John Carter's word for it (that my rhetoric is always degraded because I had a few slips during a very heated ArbCom case initiated by John Carter), please examine my repeated engagement in these three other currently-open ANI threads, as well as my engagement in this thread before John Carter showed up and started attacking me, and the other detachable comments I have made in several more ANI threads. In none of them, even in this thread before last night, did anyone call me out on my "degraded discussion"; in fact I received several "thank"s for my comments (User:HighInBC, despite being very skeptical of me earlier on in this thread, just last night thanked me for this general commentary on the nature of AGF and NLT). John Carter brings out the worst in me, because that is what John Carter is trying to do. If I am able to comport myself in a polite, civil, respectable manner in every situation where John Carter isn't trying to bait me, then how could blocking me and not John Carter possibly be a solution? John Carter was the one who degraded the rhetoric in this discussion, not me. This is just one more reason why an IBAN is needed, by the way. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:27, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support i-ban, no comment on block. Since it seems both editors agree to the iban and the back and forth between them in this pages suggests it's needed, I think it's a slam dunk. I don't think the ability of editors to follow the iban should concern us too much. The only general alternative is some sort of ban. I don't think a topic ban would help between the editors so the other option is a community ban. But I think it's better to give any editors rope, as annoying as it may be to have to deal with iban violation discussions at ANI i.e. hope the iban works and if it doesn't block them as needed. Nil Einne (talk) 06:08, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
Comment Could a non-ninvolved Admim review and close this thread? I think very little of substance is being added at this point, and what we have is a long shouting match between two editors who appear to be in agreement on only one thing. They need to be separated by an I Ban. Thanks. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:01, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Hijiri, when you make a claim on ANI and request an IBan or other sanction, you need in your OP to make your evidence, claim, and diffs of longterm abuse airtight so that the case is open-and-shut. You really failed to do that, and consequently your case is very weak and led only to massive he-said-she-said squabbling on this thread between you, John Carter, and fellow supporters of either of you. There's no use trying to retroactively make your case three or more days after you filed it -- it's too late then and only adds to the muddle. Now it's just a big mess and no one really has the time or inclination to get to the bottom of it -- at this point people are merely judging who has the worst mouth and who has been most insulting or bad-mannered on this thread. If I were an admin I'd just close this thread as a mistrial, and say please everyone can we please play like adults, and try to avoid people that we are getting overly entangled with. I don't think anybody at all on this thread has made a case for anything, and the fault is mainly because your OP was little more than a barely substantiated whine. Can we please all just drop this and find something on Wikipedia to be improved? Softlavender (talk) 07:13, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
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- A week ago I would have agreed with your last sentence. I wanted John Carter told off for not respecting my wishes that he stay off my talk page. I didn't provide extensive evidence of long-term harassment was that (apart from my IBAN with another user preventing me from providing/discussing most of the evidence on ANI!) that I sincerely expected that if I expressed my willingness to submit to the mutual IBAN that John Carter proposed several times, John Carter would show up, apologize for posting on my talk page, agree to a mutual IBAN, and that would be that. I did not expect him to wait several days before showing up and posting a bunch of very long comments about what a horrible person I am. If you want a complete summary of John Carter's harassment of me over the last year, with diffs, I will try to put one together and email it to you later this week. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:45, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- That's not how it works, Hijiri. If you don't make your case in your OP, you generally have very little chance of getting what you requested, and an overwhelming chance of the thread turning into a free-for-all, as this has. Time to call it a day. Softlavender (talk) 09:27, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Look, this thread is supposed to be wrapping up, so I don't want to star a fight, but twhen you say "that's not how it works", it seems to be based more on your personal opinion than on any PAG. Uncontroversial requests, such as a mutual IBAN that has already been agreed to by both parties, generally do not require a tremendous amount of evidence up front. Everyone here except you, including both John Carter and myself, seems to support the IBAN, so can't we just give it a rest and, as you say, find something on Wikipedia to be improved? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:48, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- I did not notice that John Carter had posted a "weak support" on this thread, above. On that basis, perhaps this IBan should be enacted. Softlavender (talk) 04:52, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Look, this thread is supposed to be wrapping up, so I don't want to star a fight, but twhen you say "that's not how it works", it seems to be based more on your personal opinion than on any PAG. Uncontroversial requests, such as a mutual IBAN that has already been agreed to by both parties, generally do not require a tremendous amount of evidence up front. Everyone here except you, including both John Carter and myself, seems to support the IBAN, so can't we just give it a rest and, as you say, find something on Wikipedia to be improved? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:48, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- That's not how it works, Hijiri. If you don't make your case in your OP, you generally have very little chance of getting what you requested, and an overwhelming chance of the thread turning into a free-for-all, as this has. Time to call it a day. Softlavender (talk) 09:27, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- A week ago I would have agreed with your last sentence. I wanted John Carter told off for not respecting my wishes that he stay off my talk page. I didn't provide extensive evidence of long-term harassment was that (apart from my IBAN with another user preventing me from providing/discussing most of the evidence on ANI!) that I sincerely expected that if I expressed my willingness to submit to the mutual IBAN that John Carter proposed several times, John Carter would show up, apologize for posting on my talk page, agree to a mutual IBAN, and that would be that. I did not expect him to wait several days before showing up and posting a bunch of very long comments about what a horrible person I am. If you want a complete summary of John Carter's harassment of me over the last year, with diffs, I will try to put one together and email it to you later this week. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:45, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Agree with Ad Orientem and Sturmgewehr88. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:48, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- I once again notice what I believe is the oft-repeated and I believe very possibly pathological behavior of Hijiri88 in trying to divert attention from possible errors on his own part and blaming others for them. This seems in a pattern with his previous behavior, in which he seemed to blame virtually every disagreement he had with anyone on the intervention of his stalker of years ago. He seems to have developed a tendency to I believe demonstrably erroneously believe because, in his eyes, that stalking individual is violating policies and guidelines, and is according to his thinking the sole motivating factor in virtually any disagreement he has here, he is free to violate those policies and guidelines as well. That is not and never has been acceptable here. Continuing in similar behavior, even if the original reason is unfounded, isn't either. I would also, frankly, include in a possible I-ban here me, Hijiri88 and Sturmgewehr88 and possibly others, because I believe that there is an easily demonstrated history of possible collusion on the part of those last two editors in particular, and possibly others, perhaps similar to that in the WP:EEML. Lastly, I find it laughable that someone who sent me an e-mail saying he had to contact me somehow, despite having been twice told in no uncertain terms to stay of my user talk page, to indicate he wasn't as stupid as he thought I indicated in a comment, not realizing such behavior is no better than violating the request to stay off the user talk page, and, frankly, far from indicating that person isn't stupid. I believe such behavior, and that very very weak grasp of policies and guidelines, and/or a possible belief that policies and guidelines are less important than him defending himself at any and all costs, including violations, indicates someone whose grasp of conduct guidelines is at best very weak and very very possible indicative of the possible incompetence of that editor. John Carter (talk) 15:10, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I'd just like to point out that I didn't mention my dispute with JoshuSasori ("his stalker of years ago") even once in this thread. John Carter seems to want to keep bringing this up in order to portray as a "paranoid psychopath", but I seriously have not engaged in any of the paranoid behaviour he accuses me of having engaged in in this thread. I honestly have no idea what bringing JoshuSasori up will accomplish here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:56, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- As, per the above, John Carter has renewed his long-time request for an IBAN with me, I would also like to request an IBAN with him. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 04:02, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Seriously? Is there no one who can close this? It doesn't seem that complicated. We have two editors who can't stand each other and are mutually requesting an I Ban and most of the comments seem to be on board with that. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:44, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Small comment by uninvolved party: I don't have any strong opinion or recommendation about what to do in this case, but I do find it alarming that by all reports and evidence John Carter is blatantly lying on several fronts in this thread (and that fact is backed up by Sturmgewehr88). If Hijiri were a clearer and better (and less volatile) presenter of evidence/refutation this would be more obvious, but as it is this is sort of buried in the TL;DR mess of this entire thread. I don't think that John Carter should get off scot-free here, considering these deliberate falsehoods. Then again I don't have any recommendation of what to do, other than at the very least somehow prevent John Carter from hounding Hijiri and Sturmgewehr88. I weary of personality disputes, but frankly I have no patience with blatant lying. (By the way I am a totally uninvolved party here -- have never edited any of the pages or alongside any of these users.) Softlavender (talk) 07:49, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Multiple problems with editor Cedric tsan cantonais
If you'll look at this edit you'll see two of them. The first is his constant attacks on anons. In this case, the anon made a mistake common with association football editors: assuming that being called to play for a national team equates with being considered that nationality. WP:AGF speaks directly against this. Checking CTC's edit history, you will see many polemics against anons in this manner or worse. The second is that he insists on using Icelanding and other non-English characters. The comment he wrote was, "Anoðr reason to shut down IP edits! Unleß you fīnd prōf ðat Davies actually playd for Canada at ANY level, just shut down ur computer already." It twice uses the Icelandic Thorn: ð, the Germanic long S:ß, an i and o with a macron, usually used to mark long or heavy syllables in Greco-Roman metrics: ī and ō. This makes it almost impossible for a native English reader to understand. This is just one comment. More can be seen in his edit history. I not sure what he's here to do, but it seems he's WP:NOTHERE on some level, definitely treating editing as a battleground, repeated hostile aggressiveness, little or no interest in working collaboratively, at least with anon editors, and major or irreconcilable conflict of attitude or intention, again especially toward anon editors. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:19, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have every reason to believe that Walter Gorlitz is intentionally presenting only half of the story here. If you look through my edit history, you'll see that I only attack vandals, but not others, and I attack vandals because it's the best way of dealing with vandals. Walter Gorlitz went soft on them and nothing happened, but when I stepped in, the vandals stopped, at least for a few days. Editing is a battleground if and only if the other side is composed of none but vandals. Also, if you look through my edit history, you'll find evidence that I don't just refuse to work collaboratively. It is only vandals and the likes of Walter Gorlitz, a double-standarded anti-diacritic crusader who allows only himself to use diacritics in his name but wants to purge them from all other names, that I am simply unable to work with because of irreconcilable differences.
- Also, WP:AGF only applies to first-time mistakes, but not repeated vandalism like that in the example that Walter Gorlitz provided. Seriously, if one (especially an admin) can still assume good faith in repeated vandalism, s/he should re-think whether s/he's leading Wikipedia towards the right direction.
- As for my use of so-called "non-English" alphabets, as accused by this anti-diacritic crusader, we all know that there's a limitation of 500 characters in the edit summary, which could be too short in some cases, but I still need to explain why I'm revoking someone's edit or why I'm making such an edit. What else should I do other than coming up with ways to shorten my spelling? Walter Gorlitz wants us to "assume good faith" even in the most blatant cases of vandalism, but why isn't he assuming good faith when all I did was using combined alphabets and diacritics to shorten my spelling? Also, for those who are able to venture back a thousand years or two, diacritics and so-called "non-standard" alphabets were everywhere in English, from Beoƿulf to Cædmon's Hymn. If Walter Gorlitz's standards were not double standard, I don't know what is. Cédric wants to abolish "Convention №. 2" like abolishing slavery. 17:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- It's clear to see the self-deluded hubris presented by Cedric when you look at his claim that he reverted a repeat vandal. The edit made by the IP he made the personal attack on was the editor's first. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:52, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- WP:SPEAKENGLISH refers to Modern English, not ancient ancestors of the language Anglo-Saxon or Proto-Germanic or Proto-Indo-European. Excessive use of non-standard spellings (which I'm sure are not even historically accurate to Old English usage) in edit summaries is disruptive. I don't like the character-count restrictions in edit summaries, but Another reason to shut down IP edits! Unless you fīnd proof that Davies actually played for Canada at ANY level, just shut down your computer already would have easily fit. The content of the comment, that IPs should be banned from editing Wikipedia entirely because one IP made a dubious, unsourced edit (to text that was already unsourced to begin with, mind you), is absurd -- almost as absurd, in fact, as calling a user named "Walter Görlitz" an "anti-diacritic crusader". Further, the assertion that WG "wants to purge [diacritics] from all other names" is made without evidence, and wouldn't even apply to User:Cedric tsan cantonais if it was true, as "Cedric tsan cantonais" doesn't contain any diacritics. I've suffered more from the Wikipedia Diacritic Wars than likely both of you combined (perhaps even more than every other editor on the project), but you don't see me making ridiculous assertions like this. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:43, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Hijiri88: Please feel free to look at how Walter Gorlitz launched his crusade here. As I recall, Walter Gorlitz himself does not speak Serbian at all. Yet, he allowed himself to launch an anti-diacritic crusade on a name that he might not even be able to pronounce. Venturing into unfamiliar territories comes with all kinds of uncertainties, especially when we're talking about an encyclopaedia.
- Also, my attitude towards IP edits did not just come out of nowhere after one dubious edit. I've had too many pages that the poured my blood, sweat and tear into vandalised by IPs for no reason at all and I've been targeted by several editors hiding behind their IP addresses simply because of simple disagreements. As we Chinese say, "Three feet of ice can't be formed with one night's cold". And yet, Walter Gorlitz, instead of blocking those IPs for vandalism as he should have, he went after me for being to "impolite" while remaining so soft on those vandals as if he was begging them to stop. How is this doing any good to Wikipedia itself? Cédric wants to abolish "Convention №. 2" like abolishing slavery. 15:09, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but what on earth do you mean "crusade"!? You say his "crusade" was "launched" last May, but when I Ctrl+F-ed his contribs to article talk pages since then for "requested move" and "proposed move", none of the others appeared to have anything to do with diacritics. What's more, when notorious pro-diacritic partisan and infamous Serbian/Japanese/Vietnamese/wherever ultranationalist User:In ictu oculi takes the same side as someone in an RM, I am very skeptical about the possibility that such a user might be an an anti-diacritic warrior. While the tongue-in-cheek nature of the preceding sentence might indicate that I do not take this issue seriously, I do; I've taken far too much crap for it over the years not to. It's obvious to me that either you are paranoid beyond reason about "anti-diacritic crusaders" or that you have some other bone to pick with WG. And you still haven't provided any evidence of where he forced you to adopt your current user name to remove the diacritics that clearly aren't there. Making accusations without providing evidence -- or, worse, providing "evidence" that clearly proves the opposite -- is a form of personal attack.
- You clearly have a lot to learn about how Wikipedia works: WG does not have the power to block those IPs, as he is not an admin; and even if he was, he would not be able to indefinitely block them as a point of policy. If you have a problem with vandalism (legitimate vandalism, as opposed to edits you happen to disagree with) the place to report it is here. Only users who know they have a weak argument complain retroactively about "vandalism". If you poured "blood and sweat" into an article, it's the easiest thing in the world to revert legitimate vandalism, and if the vandalism continues you can report it and get the page semi-protected. It's therefore clear that what you are talking about is not vandalism.
- Also, saying that IP editors "hide behind" their IPs is absurd. By choosing to edit under a publicly visible IP, those editors are disclosing more personal information about themselves than you or me of 99% of other Wikipedians with named accounts.
- Having been on the project for over three years, you should know all this already!
- Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:01, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Hijiri88: I have every reason to believe that we're still not on the same page. First, I never accused WG of forcing me to adopt a name without diacritics; Second, all I'm doing is questioning his knowledgeability, which shall be in no way considered a personal attack — In fact, if this counts as personal attacks, I don't know what doesn't. If you wish to question my knowledge in any field, be my guest.
- As for the edit summary you showed, can anyone not suspect vandalism when anyone, anon or not, removes a huge chunk of encyclopaedic content without explaining why?
- Also, I do not know the history between you and User:In ictu oculi, but according to your standard, calling him/her a "notorious untranationalist" can also be considered a personal attack.
- As for why «those editors are disclosing more personal information about themselves» is something I simply can't agree with, WP:NOTHUMAN had made it clear already and I do not plan to re-iterate those points here. I'm not gonna re-iterate anything about presuming good faith, either. But there's one thing that I request you to do: Look deeper into those edit histories. All those IP edits repeated changed the sportive nationality of a player without anything that can be considered as reference. WG himself reverted those edits multiple times but those IPs were simply too stubborn to reason with. The first among those edits might be in good faith, but repeatedly doing that? Maybe you, sir, can presume good faith from those, but the way I see it, those are either vandalism or unconstructive edits.
- To be honest, I'm not a fan of treating WP as a battle ground, either. But if those vandalism never happened, neither of us would've been here today. Also, you're making a big mistake by motioning to block me instead of those vandals out there. During my times here in Wikipedia, I dare to say that none of my edits can be considered vandalism. Can you say the same to those vandals out there? I wouldn't think so. Also, why should I be frowned upon just because I demand that all contributors register?
- Finally, I don't spend much time here in English Wikipedia simply because my pro-diacritic stance has attracted too much hostility from other editors. So why should I be frowned upon just because the majority of my edits are not on English Wikipedia? I demand an explanation. Cédric wants to abolish "Convention №. 2" like abolishing slavery. 01:23, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- You said WG "allows only himself to use diacritics in his name but wants to purge them from all other names". This appears to be a reference to his username having an umlaut; however, you did not provide any evidence of him actually trying to remove diacritics from other users' names.
- I don't know how you failed to notice that my referring to IIO as a "notorious ultranationalist" was a joke when I explicitly said that I was joking in the following sentence. "ultranationalist" is what LittleBenW, Kauffner and JoshuSasori -- the real anti-diacritic warriors, against whom you never helped us, call him. If you legitimately didn't notice that I was joking, you should apologize to me for your mistake, but even still you should never assume that what I said was meant as a personal attack, even if it had looked like one.
- I never said you should be frowned upon just because the majority of your edits are not on English Wikipedia. Please re-read what I wrote.
- And despite your own unending string of mistakes, you persist in claiming that the legitimate mistakes of others qualify as vandalism.
- If your English level is low enough that you legitimately don't realize that your language is inappropriate and you couldn't understand what I wrote, then we may have a WP:CIR issue on our hands: I generally support users with all levels of English being allowed to edit, but only if they have the humility to admit that they were wrong; you appear to be defensively striking out against anyone you with whom you fail to communicate.
- Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:49, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I offer you my apology, sir. Please forgive me for not being able to tell jokes from non-jokes. Honest.
- In the mean time, I never took on LittleBenW, Kauffner and JoshuSasori because I never knew they existed. Cédric wants to abolish Convention №. 2" like abolishing slavery. 16:24, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- I know you never knew they existed. That is why you should not be lecturing me about the importance of the "diacritic wars"; I am a veteran of them, and you only showed up as they were dying down. You made your very first edit to English Wikipedia a month after the first of them was blocked, scarcely two months before the second was blocked, and five months before the last. You don't know anything about the "diacritic wars", despite your daring to lecture me on them. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:52, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- WP:SPEAKENGLISH refers to Modern English, not ancient ancestors of the language Anglo-Saxon or Proto-Germanic or Proto-Indo-European. Excessive use of non-standard spellings (which I'm sure are not even historically accurate to Old English usage) in edit summaries is disruptive. I don't like the character-count restrictions in edit summaries, but Another reason to shut down IP edits! Unless you fīnd proof that Davies actually played for Canada at ANY level, just shut down your computer already would have easily fit. The content of the comment, that IPs should be banned from editing Wikipedia entirely because one IP made a dubious, unsourced edit (to text that was already unsourced to begin with, mind you), is absurd -- almost as absurd, in fact, as calling a user named "Walter Görlitz" an "anti-diacritic crusader". Further, the assertion that WG "wants to purge [diacritics] from all other names" is made without evidence, and wouldn't even apply to User:Cedric tsan cantonais if it was true, as "Cedric tsan cantonais" doesn't contain any diacritics. I've suffered more from the Wikipedia Diacritic Wars than likely both of you combined (perhaps even more than every other editor on the project), but you don't see me making ridiculous assertions like this. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:43, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- It's clear to see the self-deluded hubris presented by Cedric when you look at his claim that he reverted a repeat vandal. The edit made by the IP he made the personal attack on was the editor's first. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:52, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
@Cedric tsan cantonais: This nonsense has to stop. You are not allowed to insult people, not even anonymous editors, and although I share your love of diacritics you have to stop massacring English like you do. 250 characters is plenty for any edit summary, in fact if you come even near to a 100 you should simply write the explanation on the talk page, and write "See Talk: <heading>" as edit summary. And stop accusing people of bad faith when they ask you to follow Wikipedia's rules. You are just in this discussion and the edits that have been linked here in violation of WP:NPA, WP:AGF, WP:SPEAKENGLISH and WP:BATTLE. Stop it. --OpenFuture (talk) 08:17, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- @OpenFuture: Okay, you have a good point, I understand, I will slow down and stop insulting IPs. My two cents... Cédric wants to abolish "Convention №. 2" like abolishing slavery. 16:24, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- OK, good. Uill ju alßo stop prätending yat ye aenglíesc späłing cånväntiöns ðös nawt ehksizt? --OpenFuture (talk) 16:38, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- @OpenFuture: Þou have just given me every rēson to believe ðat þou þink I'm just anoðer knok-head hwō just adds diacritics for fun, hwich I have no choiç but to take offenç. I do not just switch up letters or add random diacritics for fun. All my use of diacritics are strictly linguistically and etymologically rōted while WG has publicly admitted that the umlaut in his name is merely a "rock band umlaut". If þou woud like to talk about using plain spelling more often, we coud talk, but I nēd you to wiðdraw or at least rephrase ðis. Cédric wants to abolish "Convention №. 2" like abolishing slavery. 18:26, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- So where mine, and it doesn't change anything I said. I'm not going to withdraw or rephrase it. If you insist on not using English standard spellings and hence make your communication incomprehensible to people that doesn't reach up to our knowledge of these characters, some sort of administrative action will be necessary. --OpenFuture (talk) 21:05, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Just because you want me to switch back to plain English spelling does not mean you can make poor-faith accusations against me like that. Cédric wants to abolish "Convention №. 2" like abolishing slavery. 23:25, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Just as a note: I haven't made any accusations I'm a aware of, and definitely not any poor-faith accusations. --OpenFuture (talk) 14:11, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Just because you want me to switch back to plain English spelling does not mean you can make poor-faith accusations against me like that. Cédric wants to abolish "Convention №. 2" like abolishing slavery. 23:25, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- I don't believe I ever made such a statement. The closest I came to discussing the umlaut in my family name with you was when I stated that it's not my legal (de jure) name in Canada. That does not mean that it's not my family name. When my father arrived in Canada, having spelled his name with the umlaut until that time, he was informed that there is no such letter in English and his family name legally became Gorlitz. All of his, and also my, legal documents and public records are spelled that way. However, my signature has the umlaut, because historically, that is my name, and I have done so since I was in university. My cheques and several other non-legal documents use the umlaut. It's certainly not because of my association with rock music or metal though. If I were to live in Germany, or any country where the character is recognized, I would use it. The point I was making when I explained that earlier is that diacritics are not acceptable in modern English, although they have started to to creep in, either as loans from where we get our loan words (such as in naive/naïve, cafe/café) or as hypercorrections (such as maté tea). The average English speaker would be able to easily transliterate the vowel with an umlaut, or diacritic in relation to the English alphabet, whereas they would not be able to do that with a thorn or other character not found in the English alphabet or unfamiliar to the English alphabet. So, for the official record, I am not against diacritics. What I am opposed to is using characters that are not a part of the modern English alphabet or cannot be easily understood by a reader of modern English. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:31, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- So where mine, and it doesn't change anything I said. I'm not going to withdraw or rephrase it. If you insist on not using English standard spellings and hence make your communication incomprehensible to people that doesn't reach up to our knowledge of these characters, some sort of administrative action will be necessary. --OpenFuture (talk) 21:05, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- @OpenFuture: Þou have just given me every rēson to believe ðat þou þink I'm just anoðer knok-head hwō just adds diacritics for fun, hwich I have no choiç but to take offenç. I do not just switch up letters or add random diacritics for fun. All my use of diacritics are strictly linguistically and etymologically rōted while WG has publicly admitted that the umlaut in his name is merely a "rock band umlaut". If þou woud like to talk about using plain spelling more often, we coud talk, but I nēd you to wiðdraw or at least rephrase ðis. Cédric wants to abolish "Convention №. 2" like abolishing slavery. 18:26, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- OK, good. Uill ju alßo stop prätending yat ye aenglíesc späłing cånväntiöns ðös nawt ehksizt? --OpenFuture (talk) 16:38, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
Indefinitely block Cedric tsan cantonais
I'm usually not one for extreme solutions, but someone who has been on the project for over three years should not be demanding that non-admins block IPs, accusing those IPs of "vandalism" for apparently good-faith edits, accusing those non-admins of imaginary "crusades", or demanding that all IPs be banned from editing English Wikipedia, period, because of something that apparently happened on a different language Wikipedia. Looking at CTC's contributions, it's obvious that the "too many pages that the poured my blood, sweat and tear into" were not on English Wikipedia -- this user has made 96 article edits, only four of which were over 1,000 bytes. I don't know what happened to his edits on Cantonese Wikipedia, but it surely can't justify the likes of this edit summary. While it's possible this user has something to contribute (the clean block log on his main project is ... interesting), it's obvious that he is more of a burden on the project than a boon for the time being; indefinite blocks are not permanent blocks.
- Support as nom. Also pinging Walter Görlitz, since it would be pretty dickish of me to propose a solution, several days late, to a problem he reported without informing him. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:01, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- Slow down I was pinged but I'm not aware of any of this and I don't immediately see a need to block anyone. I would defer to @OpenFuture:'s view of things. @Cedric tsan cantonais: it would be good if you could reply to Open Future, and say "Okay, you have a good point, I understand, I will slow down and stop insulting IPs. My two cents.... In ictu oculi (talk) 11:43, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
-
- @In ictu oculi: Insulting IP editors is only one of several issues here.
- There's also
- use of gibberish spellings in edit summaries based on a demonstrably-bogus character-count rationale,
- accusing other users of NPA violations based on his own misreading of their comments,
- doubling down and refusing to apologize for (2) when it was pointed out to him,
- violating AGF by accusing another user of engaging in a "crusade" based on one RM from almost a year ago (by the same logic you would be engaged in the same "anti-diacritic crusade", an absurdity I was quick to point out),
- repeatedly calling edits with which he happens to disagree "vandalism" because they happen to have been made by IP editors,
- requesting that the admin corps on English Wikipedia engage in some kind of massive anon witchhunt based on something that apparently happened on Cantonese or French Wikipedia,
- repeatedly referring to this incident on Cantonese or French Wikipedia as justification for his actions, apparently without actually explaining what happened (FTR, I find it highly unlikely that Cedric repeatedly suffered his hard work being "ruined" by "vandalism" -- vandalism is super-easy to revert; more likely, an IP editor repeatedly made well-sourced and reasonable edits that Cedric didn't like; this is why I want an explanation if Cedric is going to keep using dubious anecdotes about foreign-language wikis to justify his actions here),
- requesting that WG block a certain IP editor for making such a "vandalism" edit, despite WG not being an admin,
- seemingly accusing WG of trying to change other users' names against their wishes,
- repeated use of overly aggressive edit summaries, with swear-words and exclamation marks galore,
- defending (10) with "I was reverting obvious vandalism -- how can you not see that!?" -- clearly either unable or unwilling to get the point,
- something else that I technically promised not to bring up here unless he persisted, and he hasn't thusfar, but the night is young,
- refusing to provide an explanation for any of the above when asked,
- engaging in historically offensive hyperbole (look at his sig); whether or not you disagree with such-and-such Wikipedia content guideline (Cedric apparently hasn't looked at the content guideline he complains about with every post he signs in a while, as it does not say what he claims it says) it is not as bad as slavery,
- pedantically nitpicking words like "seemingly" and "apparently" in others' criticisms of him in order to dismiss everything they say, and
- despite clear reasons being given for criticizing his behaviour apart from his attitude toward IP editors, insisting that this proposal to block him is based on a desire to "censor" his views on IP editors.
- Most of these look like rookie mistakes, and if a legitimate rookie had made them I would say mentor, not block, but in this case the user has been editing on and off for over three years. Some of them are things that you and I have also committed quite late in our editing careers. But the combination of all of them at this time makes me say a block (without prejudice against unblock, assuming a contrite unblock request, which indicates a full understanding of why the block was made and a sincere desire to do better, is made) is the best option for the community.
- And in case it is not clear, my stance on diacritics has not changed in the past three years. I feel the need to clarify this given that little misunderstanding we had on your talk page a short while back. Apparently something in my tone of voice now convinces people that I have turned coat and joined the "anti-diacritic crusade". The reason for the scare-quotes is that, I'm sorry, I am not seeing it as any kind of grand unified crusade since LittleBenW and Kauffner got themselves blocked back in 2013, and Fyunck(click) turned out not to be a massive hypocrite and actually went with the consistent romanization and reliable sources on the Empress Jingū RM around the same time. To quote Basil Exposition, "Austin ... we won."
- Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:17, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Hijiri88: Sir, since your accusations full of terms like "seemingly" or "unlikely", I find it nearly impossible to swallow.
- Also, if you seek to block me largely because of my stance towards IPs, this is called censorship. Cédric wants to abolish "Convention №. 2" like abolishing slavery. 16:37, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- I said "seemingly" in line with AGF. If I proclaimed definitively that you did refuse to explain yourself when I requested it, when there was still the possibility that you had just misunderstood my request, it would have been in violation. Fortunately for me, your above response indicates that I was 100% correct, and would have been forgiven for leaving out the "seemingly"s. Please, please, please learn to communicate withnother editors. I said the exact opposite of "seek to block you largely because of my stance towards IPs" -- I posted a laundry list of twelve other offenses you had committed, largely against me, that, when combined, appear to me to warrant an indefinite block with possibility of immediate appeal.
- And in my experience, accusing other users of "censorship" has never worked out well for the accuser.
- Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 17:10, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Let me be clear: I had never committed any offence against you and I do not intend to, so unless there're miscommunications between us, please stop adding more accusations to the list. Cédric wants to abolish "Convention №. 2" like abolishing slavery. 18:26, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- The offenses you commit are against Wikipedia. This is not a personal issue. It's not like you can go around and insult one person and expect that everyone else is OK with that, because they aren't the people being insulted. --OpenFuture (talk) 21:05, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Cedric tsan cantonais: Yes, you did. I posted one neutral comment above and was met with a flurry of attacks. Of the above, 2, 3, 7, 11, 12, 13, 15 and 16 were all committed against me within the last 36 hours as punishment for my crime of analyzing the problem as I see it and commenting accordingly. At this point I have no doubt that if you get blocked you will blame me for it and post on your talk page (or perhaps on Wikipediocracy or some such) about how "Hijiri88 blocked you for your pro-diacritic stance", because you refuse to do the damn research and realize that I have a much longer history than you do of defending diacritics on this site. (Also, like WG, I am not an admin; I have no power to block you, so I would appreciate you not claiming that "blocking you" is what I am doing.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:14, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Hijiri88: It is becoming clear to me that we have little to no common ground on the definition of "personal attacks". All I did above was to explain my action and to give you contexts and those are in no way personal attacks, especially not against you. Therefore, I simply can't understand why you're still interpreting them as offences against you personally. Just because I'm the defendant here does not mean you can just keeping adding accusations to the list. Cédric wants to abolish "Convention №. 2" like abolishing slavery. 01:28, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- It is becoming clear to me that we have little to no common ground on the definition of "personal attacks". What on earth are you talking about? Where in my above reply to you (or even in my long reply to In ictu oculi) did I even mention personal attacks? All I did above was to explain my action and to give you contexts and those are in no way personal attacks, especially not against you. There was nothing in your above comment that explained anything about your actions, although you did provide a new rationale for blocking you (see 15). In fact, you have been roundly ignoring every single thing I say. Please address at least one of the 15 points I raised against you in my long comment above. I'll make it easier for you -- I'll put them on different lines to make them more visible for you. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:45, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Hijiri88: It is becoming clear to me that we have little to no common ground on the definition of "personal attacks". All I did above was to explain my action and to give you contexts and those are in no way personal attacks, especially not against you. Therefore, I simply can't understand why you're still interpreting them as offences against you personally. Just because I'm the defendant here does not mean you can just keeping adding accusations to the list. Cédric wants to abolish "Convention №. 2" like abolishing slavery. 01:28, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Cedric tsan cantonais: Yes, you did. I posted one neutral comment above and was met with a flurry of attacks. Of the above, 2, 3, 7, 11, 12, 13, 15 and 16 were all committed against me within the last 36 hours as punishment for my crime of analyzing the problem as I see it and commenting accordingly. At this point I have no doubt that if you get blocked you will blame me for it and post on your talk page (or perhaps on Wikipediocracy or some such) about how "Hijiri88 blocked you for your pro-diacritic stance", because you refuse to do the damn research and realize that I have a much longer history than you do of defending diacritics on this site. (Also, like WG, I am not an admin; I have no power to block you, so I would appreciate you not claiming that "blocking you" is what I am doing.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:14, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- The offenses you commit are against Wikipedia. This is not a personal issue. It's not like you can go around and insult one person and expect that everyone else is OK with that, because they aren't the people being insulted. --OpenFuture (talk) 21:05, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Let me be clear: I had never committed any offence against you and I do not intend to, so unless there're miscommunications between us, please stop adding more accusations to the list. Cédric wants to abolish "Convention №. 2" like abolishing slavery. 18:26, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support - The interactions so far gives absolutely no indication that Cedric tsan cantonais understands the problems with his behavior, nor has any intention to stop it. --OpenFuture (talk) 21:31, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - this seems like a drama over next to nothing, not indefinite block material. Cedric tsan cantonais just needs to be told that Wikipedia is a humorless place, so should stop with the funny diacritics, and if you can't fit a decent edit summary into the place provided then use the talk page, and that it is pointless to insult anons since they either exist in that form so that they can't be insulted or engaged with in any meaningful way, or they exist in that form because they are in a country where far worse things that insults could await identifiable editors. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:23, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oh, he is not joking. Those characters are not "funny". He is dead serious in his invention of a new, consistent (but to normal people incomprehensible) spelling for English. --OpenFuture (talk) 07:12, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
Voluntary Disappearance
Seeing that there're too much irreconcilable idealogical difference between mainstream English Wikipedia contributors and I, I hereby declare that I'll disappear from English Wikipedia in the foreseeable future. If you want me to stop insulting others, I can do that. However, I reject User:OpenFuture's accusation that my use of diacritics is based on bad faith. I also argue that his refusal to distinguish between linguistically-based use of diacritics and "rock band diacritics" has demonstrated his prejudice against diacritics, which is in contradiction of his claim that he "share[s]" my "love of diacritics". That being said, I also withdraw any and all accusations I've ever made against WG and offer a peace treaty with an apology. Cédric wants to abolish "Convention №. 2" like abolishing slavery. 23:25, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- They are not ideological differences. You clearly don't understand my ideology, as you have refused to read my comments. You above very clearly indicate that you have not read User:OpenFuture's comments with any care whatsoever -- where did he/she imply that your "use of diacritics" was "based on bad faith"? This indicates that you clearly have not gotten it, and you will continue your pattern of disruptive behaviour unless you are blocked. Please note that I am not trying to "condemn" or "kill" you -- I want you to read our concerns about your behaviour, to understand our concerns, to apologize and promise never to repeat this behaviour again, and then you will be unblocked and be allowed return to constructive editing. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:45, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- It occurs to me that you're not reading my responses, either. I've already stated that I want to treat linguistic use of diacritics and rock band diacritics (which I don't use) as two things and I've already stated that reduction of my diacritic use to open for discussion, but User:OpenFuture refused to treat them separately. If you look at his message above, the diacritics in his message clearly does not follow any etymological pattern. This implies that he does not understand why and how I use diacritic to abbreviate my edit summaries and that he's treating all use of diacritics indistinguishably.
- OTOH, I've already promised that I will stop insulting others and yet you pretend you didn't see those word.
- Also, when you talk about offences against you, the first thing I came up with was personal attack.
- To respond to some of your accusations:
- 1. Those are anything but gibberish. Calling them "gibberish" altogether is a give-away that we do not share the same view on diacritics;
- 4. Yes, that was my fault, and I apologise.
- 5. Those edits had been previously reverted by other users before I got involved.
- 7. Just because vandalism is easy to revert does not mean that it doesn't hurt.
- 9. Again, my fault, and I apologise.
- 10. Again, my fault, and I apologise.
- 14. It is disrespecting names that are not of English origins. Therefore, it's bad.
- 15. You're making the same mistake, good sir.
- 16. Are you seriously intentionally misinterpreting me or what? When did explicitly say I insisted that this was based on "censorship"? You need to stop making wrongful accusations up.
- P.S. I now have reason to believe that we're simply speaking two different languages. And you, good sir, are also making accusations against me based on your incorrect interpretation of my intended-to-be-completely-peaceful words. I never intended to attack or offend you and if I did make you feed offended, I apologise. But I don't think this debate can remain healthy without us understanding what each other intend to say first. Cédric wants to abolish "Convention №. 2" like abolishing slavery. 03:40, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- 1. I support use of diacritics when it is accurate and supported by reliable sources. You make up imaginary gibberish spellings of English words, that show your ignorance of many of the points about which you dare to lecture me, such as the correct usage of macrons (they don't turn the letter "o" into /uː/; they almost always mark long vowels, the one exception I can think of being Chinese pinyin, where they indicate a flat tone) and the correct name of the eth (which you inaccurately called a "thorn"). I don't know why you do this -- you said it was because of character count restrictions, which was a blatant lie; it seems to be an attempt to make disruptive edits in order to make a POINT.
- 4. I'm glad you apologized. Now please apologize for the rest.
- 5. No, I was referring to the Canadian nationality edit. It was not vandalism, and no one but you called it vandalism. Whether other editors supported your reverting it, or reverted the same themselves, is irrelevant. You clearly have not read and understood what qualifies as WP:VANDALISM.
- 7. So you are still refusing to give diffs, then? Vandalism is easy to revert, and if you are so thin-skinned that you don't like anons being allowed edit "your" articles from time to time, then you should not be working on a collaborative project like Wikipedia.
- 9. Good, but see 4. above. Also, you should apologize to me for earlier claiming that 9. never happened.
- 10. Good, but see 4. above.
- 14. Your signature links to a content guideline that you apparently don't like, and likens it to the North American slave trade. This is ridiculously offensive. However, I apologize for misreading the guideline, which does say that diacritics should be avoided in certain circumstances.
- 15. You ignored every single thing I said in order to nitpick one word that I said in order to be conservative in my criticism of you. Your outrageous behaviour would have easily justified me not using the word "seemingly", as I was 100% on the money with everything I speculated. And, ironically, in your non-response to this problem you are providing further proof that you are intent on dodging the issue. Also, please don't call me "good sir"; it is belittling.
- 16. "Also, if you seek to block me largely because of my stance towards IPs, this is called censorship."[120] You posted this 11 hours before somehow completely forgetting about it and claiming only a few lines down that it never happened? Did you really think you could get away with this?
- Again, I must say that I have no problem with users with low levels of English being allowed contribute to the project, but they must be humble and apologetic; they should not be aggressively defending everything they say and striking out at other users for criticizing them over their communication problems. If we are having communication problems, it is most certainly not my fault; the only time I used anything other than direct, straightforward English to express myself was when I jokingly/sarcastically referred to In ictu oculi as an infamous Serbian/Vietnamese/Japanese ultranationalist and didn't explicitly state that I was joking until the following sentence (although the oxymoron of a "Serbian/Vietnamese/Japanese ultranationalist" should have tipped you off even there).
- Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:29, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- All the spellings I used *were* "correct" in the same sense that your are. (I have not, however, bothered to make sure it was consistently applied). The point was to show how incomprehensible it gets to somebody who does not know the alternative etymology and pronunciations of the characters in question, toungue-in-cheek. You calling it "rock band diacritics" shows with ironic clarity that you indeed didn't understand all of it, as you think I just added diacritics willy nilly. I didn't. Now, if YOU didn't get it, how do you expect the average person that knows nothing about these things to understand it? That's the point. You think you are being clever, and you have some sort of agenda, but all you actually do is make it harder to understand what you write. --OpenFuture (talk) 04:42, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- @OpenFuture: I have to personal agenda. And seeing that I had mistakenly called your use of diacritics "willy nilly", I offer you an olive branch and an apology. I will disappear from English Wikipedia soon after this discussion is closed, but if you wish to kindly let us drink to the love of diacritics, my doors at the Wikimedia Incubator are open to you. Cédric wants to abolish "Convention №. 2" like abolishing slavery. 04:49, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- It's good that you now understand that you misunderstood my diacritics. I'm saddened to see that you don't realize that others will similarly misunderstand yours. You are of course free to leave, but it's such a silly thing to do. The Wikipedia policies are in place for a reason, you could just follow them instead. But that's your choice, of course. --OpenFuture (talk) 05:02, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- @OpenFuture: I have to personal agenda. And seeing that I had mistakenly called your use of diacritics "willy nilly", I offer you an olive branch and an apology. I will disappear from English Wikipedia soon after this discussion is closed, but if you wish to kindly let us drink to the love of diacritics, my doors at the Wikimedia Incubator are open to you. Cédric wants to abolish "Convention №. 2" like abolishing slavery. 04:49, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
A block for bad behaviour and missing the point
- Support Cedric tsan cantonais's edits are usually factual. What I find problematic is his attacks on anons and his use non-English characters. He has agreed to avoid both, but a block, even a short one, would record this decision in the block log. A permanent block or voluntary departure would be a disservice to the community. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:31, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support 24-hour block I would say longer, given the massive IDHT mess throughout the above discussion (how many times do I have to explain things to him...), but he has a clear block log at the moment, so technically this is a first offense. I would also disagree with WG's rationale that the worst are "his attacks on anons and his use non-English characters"; several named users, including both WG and myself, have probably had it worse than anons at this point. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:09, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Weak support - It feel punitive, but the argument that it gets logged is reasonable. --OpenFuture (talk) 09:33, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose A block log is not a rap sheet. Nonetheless this editor is subject to a block at any time they resume this behaviour, WP:POINT applies. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 12:59, 9 April 2016 (UTC).
Proposal for interaction ban with User:Winkelvi
User says he would stop hounding me, then starts that up again. See [121] I made it clear I didnt want to be gossiped about, but he did just that at [122]. I would also like to link y'all to this previous discussion (Thank you so much Calidum for the link) [123]. This is pretty much all anybody would need for "evidence". Winkelvi is basically a hateful hound, and he will just choose one editor and hound him/her to the level that he/she retires. See User:Lips Are Movin for a previous such instance. His hounding goes from making false sockpuppeting accusations to clogging up my talk page with anything he wishes. By the way, none of those files were deleted. He tries to get allies against me, first it was Chasewc91 and now its Chesnaught555. Notice how he took this GA review just to fail it? He didnt even let it be on hold for 7 days. He also continually makes WP:POLEMIC writings about me on his user page, and also supporting any/other deletion (or otherwise) discussion against my standing. He gossips about me on other users' talk pages. And makes a poor impression of mine to anyone I try to engage with. I am now asking for administrator intervention. Note that he is also trying to WP:DOX my country here. Please tell me he doesnt get to file bogus SPIs against me after this IBAN. Cause' it reflects badly on me (and FAKE if I may add).--MaranoFan (talk) 13:05, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Respectfully, you'll need to provide more than a bare accusation if you want anything done. Diffs? History? Anything? -Starke Hathaway (talk) 13:12, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment First of all, I've never said I would stop hounding him or anyone; second, I've never hounded him; third, my comments to Calvin999 were in reference to a couple of things: MF canvassing an editor to do a GA review for him and a GA review then starting up just an hour or so after the editor doing the review was canvassed. It seems to be a vio of policy to canvass in such a manner to begin with, since the editor being canvassed is friendly toward MF and there could be favoritism clouding the GA process in this case. Further, the other issue is that there are a lot of GA noms that just sit for a considerable period of time, untouched and unnoticed, because those nominating articles for GA don't ask favors from their Wiki-friends to do a GA review for them. MF has done this before: canvassing editors he is friendly with to perform a GA review for him. This seems to me an egregious abuse of process on the part of anyone, not just MF, and that was what my comment to Calvin was about. And speaking of policy violations on the part of MF, let me include this conversation that not only mentions a policy vio by MF occurring just moments ago, but also shows an interesting attitude from MF toward an admin he didn't think was an admin. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 13:37, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- My TP also, Winkelvi. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 14:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Go and actually read WP:Canvassing loll, Calidum is an editor who has dealt with you before. Hence I summon him.--MaranoFan (talk) 13:56, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Another policy vio just committed: editing my comments in this ANI here. Not a huge deal, but I think it demonstrates where the issues truly lie (or, with whom). -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 14:11, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Another comment and observation: Does MF really want an IBAN? This comment on my talk page and this comment on Chesnaught555's talk page doesn't cause me to think so. The continued responses to me in this filing fall into that, as well. Then there's this comment in the subsection below ("No opposition votes yet, yay!"). It has since been removed by MF. What I am seeing (especially with the "Yay!" comment), is a desire to WP:WIN. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:18, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
-
- Obviously everyone says "yay" when they're on their way of getting freedom from a hound.--MaranoFan (talk) 15:20, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Clearly you have some concerns about MaranoFan's conduct - and how many edits have you made, just in the last 3 hours, dealing with them? My question is this - why would you want to continue wasting your time with them? They want to disengage - if you agree as well, then why can't we do a voluntary iban here? Ignoring their conduct (which I have not reviewed)... honestly, you do seem to be pretty relentless in pointing out problems with their edits. Why bother? UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 15:31, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- The issue is not so much a desire for an IBAN (which I don't have), the issue is that MF continually brings this kind of stuff up when it's largely his own doing. His harassment of me at my userspace and filings of bogus reports has been going on for over a year. There have been several discussions regarding his behavior previously. His usual response? When things get too hot for him and it's proven he's the cause of the issues he blames on others, he hightails it for the weeds with a script enforced Wiki-break. Admins have warned and warned him. A few examples of past discussions and enforcements (I encourage you and anyone reading this to look at them): [126], [127], [128], [129], [130], [131], [132]. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:48, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- The issue, Winkelvi, is not whether you desire an IBAN, but why you're opposing one. MF has requested such a ban, which would immediately solve all the problems you mention, and yet you oppose it. To my eyes, this suggests that your main objective is simply to deny MF what they have requested, to be at the center of drama for whatever reason, or some combination of both. Agree to a voluntary IBAN and move on. If MF then violates the ban that they requested, you have a legitimate complaint. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:01, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Regardless of what the issue is (and it's really about MF's behavior and continued attempts to interact with me at another editor's talk page as well as my own since this was filed), I have a right to oppose an IBAN proposal that includes me. That in mind, how can me opposing it be an issue? Further, this comment from you, "to be at the center of drama for whatever reason" makes no sense, since this filing not only involves me, but the filer put my name in the topic header. Regardless, the center of "the drama" is the filer, plain and simple, as I have pointed out with the numerous diffs provided. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 16:09, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- No. That's precisely what this is not about. MaranoFan has indicated that they believe you are hounding them, and that they would like to not interact with you anymore. Your response, here, is that you are not hounding them, and by the way here are multiple diffs across multiple edits showing a variety of ways in which MaranoFan has violated policies. Do you understand that THAT behavior is what is at issue here? You're playing Gotcha with every edit they make, whether it's warranted or not. You've made your point about their behavior - and the fact that it's been posted here means that multiple admins will keep an eye on it. I'm asking that you drop the stick and leave it be. MaranoFan has asked here for an interaction ban with you, and you've done nothing but justify such a ban. So explain to us, please, what benefit to the project would we see from you continuing to interact with an editor who doesn't want to interact with you? UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 17:17, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
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- You just told me I should stop giving evidence, then you told me I should drop the stick, and now you're asking me to give you more evidence and not drop the stick? What's more, it's obvious you haven't looked at any of the evidence presented by anyone here, if you had, you would see that I'm not the one who's interacting with this individual. Rather, it's the individual filing the report who's interacting with me. I'm fine with helpful comments from editors, but your comments here are confusing and contradict each other, and seem wholly unhelpful. Further, how helpful is it for you to comment and make demands if you have not truly looked into any of the links provided and given them any reasonable thought? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:07, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- I believe you missed my point. Let's assume that you've proven your point that MaranoFan is being disruptive. I don't concede that, but let's interpret the facts in the manner most favorable to you. So you've made your point - MaranoFan is being disruptive. Fine. Admins are now aware that they are being disruptive. So why would you want to continue interacting with MaranoFan? You want to show that they are violating policy? Mission accomplished. What now? You're posting link after link about MaranoFan, and you've directly responded to their comments here repeatedly, so yes you are continuing to interact. I'm saying that there is no further purpose served by that interaction. So if this person is so disruptive and poisonous, why would you not want them banned from posting to or about you? You would be banned from posting to or about them, of course, but who cares? If you're not interacting with them, as you claim, then what difference would an interaction ban make? "Yes, I agree not to do the thing I'm not doing" is no sanction. Would it make things easier if MaranoFan agreed to the ban first? UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 18:23, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- What would help is if MF would leave me alone. Stay out of my userspace (which he's been warned about continually for over a year), stop filing ridiculous reports against me (which he's also been warned about continuously for a year). He claims hounding but has no proof of it (because I'm not hounding him). If he wants to be left alone, then he can show good faith and do the same. I will not agree to an interaction ban because I have done nothing that warrants it nor the black mark it brings. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- In other words, you are indeed requesting an IBAN. You do seem to have a knack for this, as evidenced with my interactions with you. If MF is requesting a IBAN, then I don't get the big deal to agree to it. Your posts above, at least to me, do show a sort of hounding and it would do you well to stay away from MF and let others deal with the edits in question. Sir Joseph (talk) 19:39, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- You just told me I should stop giving evidence, then you told me I should drop the stick, and now you're asking me to give you more evidence and not drop the stick? What's more, it's obvious you haven't looked at any of the evidence presented by anyone here, if you had, you would see that I'm not the one who's interacting with this individual. Rather, it's the individual filing the report who's interacting with me. I'm fine with helpful comments from editors, but your comments here are confusing and contradict each other, and seem wholly unhelpful. Further, how helpful is it for you to comment and make demands if you have not truly looked into any of the links provided and given them any reasonable thought? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:07, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
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- No. That's precisely what this is not about. MaranoFan has indicated that they believe you are hounding them, and that they would like to not interact with you anymore. Your response, here, is that you are not hounding them, and by the way here are multiple diffs across multiple edits showing a variety of ways in which MaranoFan has violated policies. Do you understand that THAT behavior is what is at issue here? You're playing Gotcha with every edit they make, whether it's warranted or not. You've made your point about their behavior - and the fact that it's been posted here means that multiple admins will keep an eye on it. I'm asking that you drop the stick and leave it be. MaranoFan has asked here for an interaction ban with you, and you've done nothing but justify such a ban. So explain to us, please, what benefit to the project would we see from you continuing to interact with an editor who doesn't want to interact with you? UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 17:17, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Regardless of what the issue is (and it's really about MF's behavior and continued attempts to interact with me at another editor's talk page as well as my own since this was filed), I have a right to oppose an IBAN proposal that includes me. That in mind, how can me opposing it be an issue? Further, this comment from you, "to be at the center of drama for whatever reason" makes no sense, since this filing not only involves me, but the filer put my name in the topic header. Regardless, the center of "the drama" is the filer, plain and simple, as I have pointed out with the numerous diffs provided. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 16:09, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- The issue, Winkelvi, is not whether you desire an IBAN, but why you're opposing one. MF has requested such a ban, which would immediately solve all the problems you mention, and yet you oppose it. To my eyes, this suggests that your main objective is simply to deny MF what they have requested, to be at the center of drama for whatever reason, or some combination of both. Agree to a voluntary IBAN and move on. If MF then violates the ban that they requested, you have a legitimate complaint. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:01, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- The issue is not so much a desire for an IBAN (which I don't have), the issue is that MF continually brings this kind of stuff up when it's largely his own doing. His harassment of me at my userspace and filings of bogus reports has been going on for over a year. There have been several discussions regarding his behavior previously. His usual response? When things get too hot for him and it's proven he's the cause of the issues he blames on others, he hightails it for the weeds with a script enforced Wiki-break. Admins have warned and warned him. A few examples of past discussions and enforcements (I encourage you and anyone reading this to look at them): [126], [127], [128], [129], [130], [131], [132]. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:48, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
Official discussion
- Support - I want to finally start doing good work for Wikipedia, uninterrupted.--MaranoFan (talk) 13:49, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. Looks to me like MF isn't really after an IBAN after all. This message directed to WV on my talk page is on a par with harassment. If she has an unshakable and obsessive want for an IBAN so much, she should just stay away from him... --Ches (talk) (contribs) 14:46, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- That comment was directed at Ches, as he archived the above thread which could've taken a negative turn. I still want an IBAN with WV. MaranoFan (talk) 14:36, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Indeed, MaranoFan. It was not appreciated. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 15:11, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Okay, but I fail to see how that dif is "harassment" or a rationale against an iban, regardless of who it was made to. I don't follow your argument at all. Sergecross73 msg me 19:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Sergecross73, my argument is that the two editors in question should not interact further (despite MF's posts on WV's talk page after the AN/I filing...) without any formal interaction ban placed between them. Neither party needs this "black mark" sanction placed on them. Is it too much to ask? --Ches (talk) (contribs) 19:08, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- That's fair, I guess I was just thrown off by your "harassment" remark. That seems to be...a bit of a misrepresentation or misinterpretation of the dif. But if you feel that these two are capable of discussion that won't bring continued disruption to the project, so be it, I guess. I just don't share that optimism, considering how long this probablem has been occurring. Sergecross73 msg me 19:13, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- I had asked MF to stay off my talk page, Serge, and yet the posts continued. If anything, this IBAN would be pointless on the basis that I know Winkelvi already has ceased communication with MaranoFan, and yet Marano continues to interact. In addition to this, no administrator could possibly argue that the community is 100% in favour of it. If I were an uninvolved admin, I would close this as no consensus, and I am certain that this will be the outcome. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 16:54, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well, its probably good you're in no position to close this discussion then, because you'd be raked over the coals for closing this discussion now as no consensus, considering its only been running about a day, and the last comment was left like 5 minutes ago, so discussion in clearly still active and consensus is still forming. Not to mention it currently leaning towards "support". (But the fact that you don't see that is the very reason why INVOLVED exists, so that's good at least.) Sergecross73 msg me 17:08, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- That's exactly why I am not an admin, Sergecross73! The Support !votes only slightly outnumber the Oppose ones, so in all honesty I still do not see a consensus. I can see either that happening, or a landslide Support majority later... --Ches (talk) (contribs) 17:29, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well, its probably good you're in no position to close this discussion then, because you'd be raked over the coals for closing this discussion now as no consensus, considering its only been running about a day, and the last comment was left like 5 minutes ago, so discussion in clearly still active and consensus is still forming. Not to mention it currently leaning towards "support". (But the fact that you don't see that is the very reason why INVOLVED exists, so that's good at least.) Sergecross73 msg me 17:08, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- I had asked MF to stay off my talk page, Serge, and yet the posts continued. If anything, this IBAN would be pointless on the basis that I know Winkelvi already has ceased communication with MaranoFan, and yet Marano continues to interact. In addition to this, no administrator could possibly argue that the community is 100% in favour of it. If I were an uninvolved admin, I would close this as no consensus, and I am certain that this will be the outcome. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 16:54, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- That's fair, I guess I was just thrown off by your "harassment" remark. That seems to be...a bit of a misrepresentation or misinterpretation of the dif. But if you feel that these two are capable of discussion that won't bring continued disruption to the project, so be it, I guess. I just don't share that optimism, considering how long this probablem has been occurring. Sergecross73 msg me 19:13, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Sergecross73, my argument is that the two editors in question should not interact further (despite MF's posts on WV's talk page after the AN/I filing...) without any formal interaction ban placed between them. Neither party needs this "black mark" sanction placed on them. Is it too much to ask? --Ches (talk) (contribs) 19:08, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Okay, but I fail to see how that dif is "harassment" or a rationale against an iban, regardless of who it was made to. I don't follow your argument at all. Sergecross73 msg me 19:04, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Indeed, MaranoFan. It was not appreciated. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 15:11, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support - If MaranoFan wants Winkelvi to back off then he should back off. Also, MF should work harder at avoiding WV whenever possible. WV needs to learn to stop lecturing other editors and focus more on making improvements to Wikipedia. I fully support the IBAN. These comments are based upon interaction with WV. Please note how WV responds to my good faith comments here. It will tell you everything that you need to know about this IBAN request.--ML (talk) 15:35, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose: Insufficient evidence presented to merit an IBAN. Insufficient evidence that lesser remedies (e.g., mutual avoidance) have been tried and failed. I believe indef-length IBANs should be avoided unless that element of the IBAN is independently justified, and I'm not seeing any such justification. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 17:18, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Mendaliv: Is this enough for "evidence"? The only reason anyone opposed was because I was on a script-enforced wikibreak.--MaranoFan (talk) 18:47, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support. The previous request, which was archived without a proper closure, is viewable here. As the filer of that request, I think the evidence there was quite compelling. Though I haven't followed the situation of late, I don't think much has changed between MF and WV since then given the tenor of comments such as "same shit, different day" [133], this diatribe [134] (the whole thread there is truly illuminating), or this pointy revert [135]. Calidum ¤ 17:55, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support - I was requested to comment here, which makes sense, as I tried to mediate some disputes between the two of them in the past I believe. Even before that, I saw this pop up on my watchlist was likely going to give my two cents. Anyways, I think an iban would help make both of their efforts more constructive, so they can focus on content and not each other. They're arguments have been going on for a long time, and I think everyone would be better off if they'd just go work on the opposite ends of pop music work on content separately. Sergecross73 msg me 18:56, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose Calling a editor out on their faults and then observing the chastened editor develop ANI-flu is not harassment. I would suggest that if Winkelvi sees faults with MaranoFan's editing, that they bring it to a neutral admin to help correct the issue. MaranoFan should go back and read WP:CANVAS and WP:ADMINSHOP closer as their claims of not canvassing/adminshopping falls flat on it's face. MaranoFan should observe other well established policies (like WP:TPO which prohibits deleting other users talk page commentary barring extraordinary situations) lest they end up on the wrong side of sanctions. This iBan request reads more like MaranoFan trying to neutralize a significant and frequently correct critic of their work, which iBans are not to be used for. Hasteur (talk) 19:00, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
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- @Hasteur: But it is not Canvassing or adminshopping, these are people who were involved at [136] which was precisely about the same thing as this, only failed because I was inactive.--MaranoFan (talk) 19:03, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- If you cannot see that the items that WV presented are Canvassing/AdminShopping I call into question your competence because the notices are nowhere near neutral in addition to your conduct faults indicates that your privileges need to be restricted, not WV. I again reiterate my advice to both of you. Hasteur (talk) 00:39, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Hasteur: But it is not Canvassing or adminshopping, these are people who were involved at [136] which was precisely about the same thing as this, only failed because I was inactive.--MaranoFan (talk) 19:03, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose, possible boomerang based solely on the diffs provided here. MaranoFan has not demonstrated any hounding, stalking, or other inability to edit constructively with WV. WV, however, has provided a good amount of evidence against MaranoFan showing a history of disruption. Given that WV seems disinclined to agree to an iban, it's up to the filer to demonstrate the need for one. I see no such demonstration. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:30, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
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- But there can't be a boomerang, as I am asking for a two-sided IBAN. There will either be an IBAN or there won't be one. Please get your facts straight.--MaranoFan (talk) 19:37, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Blocks, tbans, and one-way ibans are always options. Your behavior here and in the diffs is atrocious thus far... EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:46, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- MaranoFan, I've been here for more than 2 years and have participated in plenty of ANI reports since last year. I know well enough that what EvergreenFir is said is correct. Any kind of report will involve scrutiny of editors involved, whether it be the filer or not. WP:BOOMERANG applies to any kind of situation, regardless it be a preposition or not. I recommend that you get your facts straight. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 01:01, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- But there can't be a boomerang, as I am asking for a two-sided IBAN. There will either be an IBAN or there won't be one. Please get your facts straight.--MaranoFan (talk) 19:37, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support Somewhat based on my own dealings with WV, if MF is requesting an IBAN, then that should be accepted. WV needs to learn how to lay off and know when to call it quits and if staying away from MF will do Wiki good, then it should pass. Sir Joseph (talk) 19:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support, per both editors' comments in this thread. MaranoFan asked for the ban but then keeps commenting on Winkelvi, while Winkelvi refuses to stop commenting on MaranoFan. It's obvious that neither one is going to leave the other alone. So let's have an interaction ban, and then some blocks when the ban is violated. Nothing here is going to improve the project one bit - so we need to put a stop to it. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 19:42, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support - Any editor should be able to get an IBAN with any other editor if they feel their interactions are not productive. I don't believe that Winkelvi is the only editor in the project who (1) is capable of dealing with whatever problems MaranoFan presents, and (2) would be willing to do so. Therefore there is no need for continued contact between these two parties. It should go without saying that we'll have a problem if MF requests an IBAN with any editor who opposes them; for now, I see this as an avoidable personality conflict. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:58, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
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- @Mandruss: Ibans burden both parties though. Do you think there's enough evidence here to support claims that WV is somehow harassing or unable to constructively edit with MF? EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:05, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- I disagree that an IBAN would necessarily burden Winkelvi. If the concept of a "no-fault divorce" doesn't exist here, it should in my view. If it's not necessary to establish fault, the presence or absence of evidence is irrelevant. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:08, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- By the way, I would find it problematic if a Winkelvi->MaranoFan IBAN were established and then Chesnaught555 started (continued?) to actively oppose MF. WV and Ches are so closely allied that they are effectively almost one and the same person, and Ches would simply become a proxy for Winkelvi in disputes with MF. I'm not advocating a second IBAN at this point, but I hope Ches would recognize the problem and also avoid MF. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:29, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Mandruss, of course sir. I asked MF to stay off my talk page and I hope they follow that advice - I also don't wish for any further interaction with them. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 20:33, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Excellent, thank you. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:35, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- No problem, Mandruss. I do hope you understand why I am not in favour of any formal sanctions. Simply informally staying away from MF may be the best way forward, and I do not see any consensus on this !vote. I am certain that Winkelvi will agree on this one considering he is not in favour of the IBAN, either. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 20:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Excellent, thank you. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:35, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Mandruss, of course sir. I asked MF to stay off my talk page and I hope they follow that advice - I also don't wish for any further interaction with them. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 20:33, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Mandruss: Ibans burden both parties though. Do you think there's enough evidence here to support claims that WV is somehow harassing or unable to constructively edit with MF? EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:05, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support - Each of these two editors seem to be bringing out the worst in the other, and apparently this has been going on in some form for at least a year. Ultraexactzz and Mandruss bring a lot of clarity to the situation. We don't need a mountain of evidence, nor do we need to wait for a total blowup before we simply tell these editors to stay away from each other, stop worrying about each others edits, and stop posting innuendo on third party editor's talk pages.- MrX 20:50, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support if this eliminates the near constant sniping and back and forth bickering between the two users. They cannot keep apart from each other even when they say they want nothing to do with each other. They clearly can't do so the community must force them to avoid each other. only (talk) 21:17, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
Oppose. I don't understand this request, which was brought to my attention on my talk page. Based on the very first post by MF requesting this IBAN, these two editors have not been interacting. WV has mentioned this person to other editors. Simply not a reasonable request. I get mentioned now and then by other editors. That's how the bisquit crumbles. Nor do I understand the harm done. Mind you am not in the WV fan club, and I assume that's why I was approached, but this discussion does not add to the totality of man's knowledge in any way. Coretheapple (talk) 21:42, 29 March 2016 (UTC)Changing to support based on this discussion, which clarified the need for this IBAN. Coretheapple (talk) 14:59, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Interesting turn of events. Especially since the original premise for your "Oppose" !vote was "Based on the very first post by MF requesting this IBAN, these two editors have not been interacting." - and that premise/observation remains the same (as far as I'm aware and based on my own continued non-interaction with MF). I think it's not unreasonable to ask you to explain why you have changed this out of the blue, Coretheapple. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:38, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- I can't answer for Core, but personally, its the way you badger and bicker with anyone who disagrees with you in these discussions with these snippy responses, coupled with the fact that these issues with Marano have been spanning months (years?) now. I know you probably feel you're just "defending yourself" or something, but constant aggressive responses doesn't exactly send the "I'm not the type of person to be hounding someone" message you're going for here, nor does it instill confidence about this issue just going away on its own without any action taken. You're not exactly portraying yourself in the best light in these responses (and similar bickering/badgering from Calvin and Ches probably aren't helping either, they just make this all look like an even bigger mess.) Sergecross73 msg me 18:38, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yep, that puts it well. My sentiments entirely. Coretheapple (talk) 00:29, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Your explanation and Core's agreement with same makes no sense in that (1) It has nothing to do with the IBan proposal; (3) When Core changed her !Vote, I hadn't responded to anyone in this thread for a considerable amount of time; (3) The reasoning you gave seems to be based on a punitive mindset. In other words, "If you respond to comments and defend yourself we will punish you for doing so". None of this has anything to do with interaction between MF and myself (which there hasn't been for a week now), doesn't establish a need for an IBan (no one, including the filer, has been able to provide any evidence to support that need) and certainly doesn't fit the picture of action taken to prevent disruption (prevention, not punishment). -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:33, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Hmmm, based on your response, you're not following what I'm saying at all. I'm not criticizing the fact that you're responding/defending yourself, its the way you're going about doing it. Think of it this way. Have you ever witnessed this exchange: A person says something with their voice raised. Another person, in response, says "Please don't raise your voice, I don't like it when you're angry." Then, the first person responds by screaming "I'm not angry! You'll know when I'm angry!". Generally, you'll find the second person unconvinced, because, you know, screaming is a common sign of being angry. Bringing this back to you, you're essentially defending the accusation that you're hounding this editor, by going about hounding anyone who disagrees with you. It makes your argument...hard to believe. You've got an explanation for every example people provide you, but the fact that we keep having these discussions, makes your dismissals hard to buy into. Sergecross73 msg me 19:40, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- I do now see your point, Sergecross73. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 04:22, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Hmmm, based on your response, you're not following what I'm saying at all. I'm not criticizing the fact that you're responding/defending yourself, its the way you're going about doing it. Think of it this way. Have you ever witnessed this exchange: A person says something with their voice raised. Another person, in response, says "Please don't raise your voice, I don't like it when you're angry." Then, the first person responds by screaming "I'm not angry! You'll know when I'm angry!". Generally, you'll find the second person unconvinced, because, you know, screaming is a common sign of being angry. Bringing this back to you, you're essentially defending the accusation that you're hounding this editor, by going about hounding anyone who disagrees with you. It makes your argument...hard to believe. You've got an explanation for every example people provide you, but the fact that we keep having these discussions, makes your dismissals hard to buy into. Sergecross73 msg me 19:40, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- I can't answer for Core, but personally, its the way you badger and bicker with anyone who disagrees with you in these discussions with these snippy responses, coupled with the fact that these issues with Marano have been spanning months (years?) now. I know you probably feel you're just "defending yourself" or something, but constant aggressive responses doesn't exactly send the "I'm not the type of person to be hounding someone" message you're going for here, nor does it instill confidence about this issue just going away on its own without any action taken. You're not exactly portraying yourself in the best light in these responses (and similar bickering/badgering from Calvin and Ches probably aren't helping either, they just make this all look like an even bigger mess.) Sergecross73 msg me 18:38, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Interesting turn of events. Especially since the original premise for your "Oppose" !vote was "Based on the very first post by MF requesting this IBAN, these two editors have not been interacting." - and that premise/observation remains the same (as far as I'm aware and based on my own continued non-interaction with MF). I think it's not unreasonable to ask you to explain why you have changed this out of the blue, Coretheapple. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:38, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support Just by looking at the back and forth between these two in this thread, it seems obvious they can't collaborate constructively together. An interaction ban is needed to separate these two, and it would be a benefit to both editors and the project.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 22:01, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support UltraExactZZ, Mandruss and MrX have analyzed the situation accurately. I am in full agreement with their assessments. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 23:14, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose I do see a hounding issue that needs to be addressed, as per WV's message on Calvin999's talk page. However, what I do is MaranoFan's mishandling of the issue. Her/his (I don't remember the gender) message on WV's talk page and what seems to be an edit on WV's user page is enough provoke anyone. I don't see how an IBAN would help anyone, since interaction is very small if at all. As much as I don't like WV, I just don't see how the IBAN is any way going to resolve the issue. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 01:15, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Please note that this will be my last time posting in this thread I don't see how an IBAN would help anyone But it will help both parties, solving the issue you describe above. This two-sided iban will also prevent me from editing his userspace. As anyone who will read his posts conclude, "WV is asking for an IBAN without knowing he wants one".--MaranoFan (talk) 06:50, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Your edit as of 09:41, 30 March 2016 proved this to be either a lie or a broken promise and therefore whatever credibility you have left is in the sewer along with other refuse. Hasteur (talk) 12:54, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose As others have already pointed out, my actions do not merit an IBan. Whether MF's actions do, I'll leave up to others to decide. I will say this about MF running here for his allegations that I am hounding him: He needs to toughen up and stop coming to administrators and other editors with complaints about those he feels have wronged, bullied, harassed, and hounded him. Along the same lines - as others have also pointed out to him - he needs to get a grip on what hounding truly is and isn't. Sans that understanding, it's no surprise to me that he hasn't been able to provide one shred of evidence that I have been hounding him.
- I completely object to the proposition that I would have to wear an IBan stigma badge when it's unnecessary for me and when I have done nothing that warrants such a stigma and black mark on my editing career in Wikipedia. And, frankly, I have to wonder MF understands what an IBan will really mean for him going forward.
- Something else that needs to be pointed out: one of the big differences between MF and I as far as this report: he has felt the need to go to numerous editors to get support for his IBan "proposal", in fact he has gone to those he perceives to be my Wikipedia enemies and/or detractors. If that doesn't tell anyone reading this something important about MFs purpose in this report as well as his attitude toward me, I don't know what will. On the flip side, who have I gone to in order to gain support? No one at all. Why? Because (1) It's against policy (canvassing), and (2) I haven't done anything that warrants an IBan, therefore, I don't feel a need to defend myself or ask others to stand up for me.
- I do need to address those who say that there is continued "sniping" or disruptive/unconstructive behavior between the two of us. Let me point out that a little over a month ago, I tried very, very hard to make a good faith gesture toward MF and offer an olive branch in the way of reviewing an article he nom'd for GA. Everything I did and said from the first review comments to the ultimate fail and final comments (all to be seen here) were fair and extremely civil toward MF. How did he respond? Continuing to chide and poke and behave rudely toward me (example here: [137]). One thing that whole experience shows: I have no problem with or inability in treating MF with civility and fairness. The only one who does have difficulty in this area is the person who filed the report. And, as another already stated, pointing out MFs bad fruit and policy vios and bad behavior is not wrong, nor is it the problem here. The person producing bad fruit and committing policy vios and bad behavior who complains about someone pointing out these issues and running to AN/I when it happens, is.
- There's really not much more for me to say, except to address Sir Joseph who tried to put words in my mouth when he said, "In other words, you are indeed requesting an IBAN." No, I didn't say that at all SJ. How you got that impression is beyond my comprehension. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 01:31, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support per the previous proposal a year ago by Calidum, which had a supermajority of Support, but was archived without close. If this problem has still persisted one year later, it's time for the IBan to happen. After enaction, the IBan can be re-assessed a year from now and if both parties are agreeable, it can be removed. Softlavender (talk) 02:18, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - MaranoFan has been bringing all of this on himself for months. He is rude, non-compliant, not willing to listen, doesn't understand the rules and guidelines of Wikipedia, canvasses for reviews on a weekly basis and has no respect for anyone. He is cold and calculating. MF requesting an IBAN against the very placid, calm and peaceful editor that is Winkelvi is nothing more than a childish, immature and non-starter attempt at trying to garner some attention, which MF thrives on. If anything, MF should be banned from contacting Winkelvi, not the other way around. MF should be blocked from editing from his disgusting and highly provocative behaviour on WP over the past couple of weeks. I'm more than happy to provide a multitude of diffs is required. — Calvin999 09:18, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Pot meet kettle, you are both black.--MaranoFan (talk) 09:41, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Racist. — Calvin999 10:18, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Calvin999 Were you joking? WP:KETTLE's existence is ample testimony to this metaphor being widely understood on English Wikipedia, and if you seriously think your being called "black" in this case was about race, then you should be more careful about responding before clicking on the links. In my experiences, calling you a kettle when you call someone else "rude, non-compliant, unwilling to listen and failing to understand the rules and guidelines of Wikipedia" is a perfectly reasonable argument. (I haven't looked at the rest of the content here, so I'm not sure if you were technically correct; I only posted here because when my browser refreshed after I posted a comment in another thread it jumped around a bit, and my cursor wound up hovering over the word "racist", which peaked my interest.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:21, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Racist. — Calvin999 10:18, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Since Calvin999 hasn't provided even a single diff, I feel compelled to state that "rude, non-compliant, not willing to listen, doesn't understand the rules and guidelines of Wikipedia, canvasses ... and has no respect for anyone" describe Calvin999, as evidenced by the mass of notable Adele song articles he AfDed after MaranoFan worked on them, and by these recent ANIs: [138], [139], [140], [141], [142]. And calling Winkelvi a "very placid, calm and peaceful editor" is ludicrous to anyone who has actually interacted with him or looked at his block log or seen his editing style or his bloodhound-like stalking of editors he dislikes or has issues with. Softlavender (talk) 01:11, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
- I said I can provide diffs if required. Since you haven't asked me to provide any, that's why none are here. As I said, I am still happy to provide diffs if required. — Calvin999 09:03, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
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- "...or seen his editing style or his bloodhound-like stalking of editors he dislikes or has issues with.". Diffs are required for such an outrageous claim, and I see no reason why this unprovoked, extreme personal attack from you should go unchallenged, Softlavender. In fact, I'm considering opening a complaint about it. You are welcome to give irrefutable evidence that what you've said is accurate or strike it. Your choice. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 14:55, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
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- I dunno, several of your comments in this very thread could be used to support the contention that you have pursued Maranofan with "bloodhound-like" focus (though that's a far cry from stalking, as such). The fact that you absolutely refuse to back off and drop the stick would support that statement as well. Softlavender may have been overly harsh in their phrasing, but the sentiment is absolutely on point. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 18:00, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
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- "several of your comments in this very thread could be used to support the contention that you have pursued Maranofan with "bloodhound-like" focus" Providing diffs as evidence that this report is not only frivolous but (as another editor noted below) a complete waste of time and to show the filer is walking very close into boomerang territory is not pursuing anyone. It's doing what's required and necessary to defend oneself in this snake-pit called AN/I.
- "you absolutely refuse to back off and drop the stick" Really? Please provide diffs from this AN/I that support such an accusation. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:18, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
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- K. Here's one, in which you refuse to stop interacting with MF despite their request. There are others, of course. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 20:37, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Your claim was, "you absolutely refuse to back off and drop the stick". I asked you to provide evidence I ever said or did either. You reply with a diff to this comment from me: "I will not agree to an interaction ban because I have done nothing that warrants it nor the black mark it brings.", and then further claim that I stated I "...refuse to stop interacting with MF despite their request" Your evidence does not show I refused to back off, nor does it show I am not dropping the stick. My comment obviously is what it appears: I will not agree to a formal interaction ban because I have done nothing wrong and no evidence has been given by MF that an IBan is warranted. This has already been pointed out by others in this thread, as well. This in mind, I do not deserve nor have I created a situation that the stigma or burden of a formal and/or indefinite IBan would bring. Further, I never said I was refusing to stop interacting with MF. Not once. Again, another misrepresentation from you - actually, an out-and-out lie. I don't appreciate you falsely representing what I've said nor do I appreciate being lied to and about. Especially by an administrator. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 20:59, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Your entire participation in this thread is predicated on the fact that MaranoFan asked you to stop interacting with them, and you refused. So they came here asking the community to require you to stop interacting with them (and, as part of that, agreed to stop interacting with you in turn). And you opposed the request, repeatedly and at length. So no, I don't think characterizing your response as refusing to back off is unreasonable. I asked you if you'd agree to a voluntary interaction ban, and you refused. "I will not agree to an interaction ban..." you said, at the diff I linked above. What you seem to not understand is that agreeing voluntarily to not interact with someone doesn't put a black mark on any record. No one is keeping score, here. This isn't fucking Reddit or some such. All that means is that - wait for it - you stop talking to or about that person, and they in turn stop talking to or about you. Period. Full stop. They can't be banned from interacting with you without you being banned from interacting with them - so explain to me, please, why you want to continue interacting with MF? You say that you don't, but yet you oppose a very simple request that would end, for the foreseeable future, any possibility of interaction. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 13:30, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
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"No one is keeping score, here" Sure. No one is keeping score. That's a laugh. Obviously, you're thinking of what happens at the My Little Pony and Rainbow Unicorn Noticeboard at Cotton Candy-pedia rather than ANI at Wikipedia. And yes, you have mischaracterized what I said. Several times. Which tells me I need to stop saying anything to you because every time I have responded to you in this report, you've turned my actual words and obvious meaning into something else entirely. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 14:05, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- Well, from over here in the cheap seats, your statements have been pretty clear. And you've done nothing to clarify them other than tell me that I'm wrong. So, ok. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 15:06, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Let's also avoid accusing editors of lying, shall we? Really and truly, all that does is prove my point - and reflects poorly on one of us. And it's not me. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 13:30, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Block for MaranoFan whose behaviour even here has been less than collegial at times. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 16:09, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Should we have this as an alternative proposal? I see no consensus for the IBAN, and I do concur with Fortuna here... --Ches (talk) (contribs) 16:47, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- I am open for that discussion. That comment with its edit summary really showcase how this user reacts and in no way is it acceptable. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 02:01, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
- I concur, Mirela. Should we start a new section with this alternative proposal? --Ches (talk) (contribs) 10:53, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Chesnaught555: A sub-section, yes. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 23:48, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
- I concur, Mirela. Should we start a new section with this alternative proposal? --Ches (talk) (contribs) 10:53, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
- I am open for that discussion. That comment with its edit summary really showcase how this user reacts and in no way is it acceptable. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 02:01, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
- Should we have this as an alternative proposal? I see no consensus for the IBAN, and I do concur with Fortuna here... --Ches (talk) (contribs) 16:47, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support I disagree with the canvassing, but I agree that MaranoFan needs to cool down. Let's see if an IBAN would allow her to focus on content creation and other more useful activities. I am unfamiliar with the history between Winkelvi and MaranoFan, but I recently see quite a bit of edit warring and disputes arising from comparatively minor issues. SSTflyer 16:29, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
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- You don't see any recent edit warring from me, SSTflyer. I'd appreciate it if you would revise your comment and be more concise. If the edit warring is coming from MF, then you need to say that so others will not get the wrong impression. It's not me edit warring, please correct your comment. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:01, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
Support. Neither of these editors have clean hands in their interactions with each other, so a two-way IBAN seems to make the most sense. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 11:05, 31 March 2016 (UTC)- Changing to strong support in light of the fact that Winkelvi has opened two fruitless SPIs against MaranoFan, the second of which was pretty much completely frivolous. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 16:02, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I'd appreciate it if you'd take a moment to understand the history on the first SPI filed a year ago. I had been undergoing an extreme amount of unrelenting tag-team harassment by both parties named in the SPI in my userspace. It seemed to me (and others at the time, including Calidum who emailed me about opening an SPI on MaranoFan but has since turned on me for reasons I am completely unclear about) that they were the same editor, especially considering how it was all occurring. If you'd like diffs, Starke, I can provide them for you). The latest SPI was poor judgement on my part and I shouldn't have done it. I'm not saying this because of your comment or because of this IBan proposal, but because I have had time to think about it and realized that it was not the best thing for me to do. We all learn from our mistakes, and the last SPI was a mistake on my part. The other one, however, was warranted considering what was happening at the time. The harassment was horrible - and was noted as such by more than one administrator and several editors. It did look like the two were the same person. Link to that SPI here. One more thing: I wasn't the only one who thought MF was socking, Chasewc91 did as well and filed another SPI on MF a few months later here. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 19:52, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. Essentially agree with WP:BOOMERANG analysis by EvergreenFir (DIFF), and harassment analysis by Chesnaught555 (DIFF), above. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 14:57, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
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I don't support an IBAN, butI don't support a "boomerang" for MF either. She was provoked by comments about her and is oversensitive. The diffs cited don't demonstrate harassment; I actually think the one on WV's page was a kind of gesture of appreciation, not sarcastic. Let's just drop this big waste of time. Coretheapple (talk) 17:03, 31 March 2016 (UTC) (Correcting, now support IBAN.) Coretheapple (talk) 17:23, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support as the least we can do to give MaranoFan a break from the harassment I've been observing for months. Softlavender's characterization of WV style is completely accurate. Anything Ches says is quite suspect for as someone else noted Ches & WV are essentially joined at the hip, to the point I wonder if one is not a sock of the other. Legacypac (talk) 06:07, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Oh, for the love of christ... "someone else noted Ches & WV are essentially joined at the hip, to the point I wonder if one is not a sock of the other." You'd better have a real good explanation along with some convincing evidence to make an outrageous claim like that. Or are you just trying to poison the well? I've seen some shitty, personal-attacky, non-AGF things said about me in Wikipedia before, but that pretty much takes the cake -- along with someone else saying I'm asking for an IBan, someone else saying I've been edit warring recently, someone else saying I'm stalking MF, and an administrator actually saying above (without proof) that I have refused to stop interacting with MF... enough. What a bunch of bullshit. None of it comes with diffs, none of it comes with evidence -- all of it is smoke and mirrors bullshit. So sick of it. All of it. The lies, the piling on, the ganging up, the vendettas. Encyclopedia? What encyclopedia? All this thread is amounting to now is internet flaming and a free-for-all. For fuck's sake. Drmies, Bbb23, NeilN, Ritchie333: will somebody, anybody with sense please do something about this? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 07:22, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- No, I am not a sock of Winkelvi. If you like, I can log out, make an IP edit, and confirm it is me - I live in the UK. Should I do that? Heck, most people know I'm British anyway, just by looking at my written English. I have no issue with doing this. Best, --Ches (talk) (contribs) 09:27, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- Putting aside the "sock" red herring, I agree with Legacypac and with Softlavender's description of WV's editing style. I personally favor closing this without action. However, WV doesn't get any medals for his conduct by any stretch of the imagination. Coretheapple (talk) 13:52, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- "I agree with Legacypac and with Softlavender's description of WV's editing style." Which is another red-herring as it has absolutely nothing to do with what the original "proposal" and what this report is supposed to be about. I'm not a fan of your editing style, either. Who cares? Your editing style is not the issue just as my editing style isn't the issue. I'm now forced to point out: what can be the motivation for bringing editing style up in a thread that isn't about editing style? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 14:51, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- I was bending over backwards by calling it a red herring, and the diffs cited by MF were gratuitous and provocative, and appeared to have the desired effect. Clearly you are impervious to reason over this. Coretheapple (talk) 14:23, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- "I agree with Legacypac and with Softlavender's description of WV's editing style." Which is another red-herring as it has absolutely nothing to do with what the original "proposal" and what this report is supposed to be about. I'm not a fan of your editing style, either. Who cares? Your editing style is not the issue just as my editing style isn't the issue. I'm now forced to point out: what can be the motivation for bringing editing style up in a thread that isn't about editing style? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 14:51, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- Putting aside the "sock" red herring, I agree with Legacypac and with Softlavender's description of WV's editing style. I personally favor closing this without action. However, WV doesn't get any medals for his conduct by any stretch of the imagination. Coretheapple (talk) 13:52, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- No, I am not a sock of Winkelvi. If you like, I can log out, make an IP edit, and confirm it is me - I live in the UK. Should I do that? Heck, most people know I'm British anyway, just by looking at my written English. I have no issue with doing this. Best, --Ches (talk) (contribs) 09:27, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oh, for the love of christ... "someone else noted Ches & WV are essentially joined at the hip, to the point I wonder if one is not a sock of the other." You'd better have a real good explanation along with some convincing evidence to make an outrageous claim like that. Or are you just trying to poison the well? I've seen some shitty, personal-attacky, non-AGF things said about me in Wikipedia before, but that pretty much takes the cake -- along with someone else saying I'm asking for an IBan, someone else saying I've been edit warring recently, someone else saying I'm stalking MF, and an administrator actually saying above (without proof) that I have refused to stop interacting with MF... enough. What a bunch of bullshit. None of it comes with diffs, none of it comes with evidence -- all of it is smoke and mirrors bullshit. So sick of it. All of it. The lies, the piling on, the ganging up, the vendettas. Encyclopedia? What encyclopedia? All this thread is amounting to now is internet flaming and a free-for-all. For fuck's sake. Drmies, Bbb23, NeilN, Ritchie333: will somebody, anybody with sense please do something about this? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 07:22, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose WV is not the problem here. Possible boomerang considering the behavior documented above. --DHeyward (talk) 08:35, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support These 2 editors, despite the well-established truth that nothing productive comes of their relationship, cannot seem to stay away from each other on their own. It is time for the Wikipedia community to take action and prevent needless bickering. Display name 99 (talk) 13:46, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support I'd also recommend an IBAN between MF and Calvin, even more so than the current proposal. Keeping the three of them separated would be beneficial to all three parties. Azealia911 talk 15:22, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support. Fine with IBAN, and agreed with Azealia911. KGirlTrucker87 (talk) 16:49, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support - Per all the above.VictoriaGraysonTalk 06:30, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support - clearly an issue here that would be resolved with an IBAN. - theWOLFchild 20:50, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
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- While I am starting to see Sergecross' point re: my responses to comments in this thread, I will not be silent on this !vote. Clearly a retaliatory move based on this exchange and my comments here. Prior to the AN/I he filed, I had not heard of this user and have never had any interaction with them previously. I realize anyone is allowed to comment at AN/I regardless of previous interaction, however, I think that the diffs I provided here along with this diff to Wolfchild's block log (numerous blocks specifically for harassing other editors) gives a good picture of what their !vote is really all about. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 20:59, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, thanks for pointing out that I have an active report on ANI - that's why I'm here. And yes, our recent interactions demonstrated to me your poor attitude towards others and this project in general. Unlike you, I actually took the time to read through the ANI I'm commenting on, and can easily see that an IBAN is the best way to protect the project from any further disruption caused by you two interacting. The fact that sooo many others here agree with this assessment speaks volumes, and you should spend more time considering your actions and attitude, instead of attacking others. ("Block log" indeed... have you ever heard the saying about "People in glass houses"...?) You should worry about your own, very active, very recent, block log, instead of mine. - theWOLFchild 21:31, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- While I am starting to see Sergecross' point re: my responses to comments in this thread, I will not be silent on this !vote. Clearly a retaliatory move based on this exchange and my comments here. Prior to the AN/I he filed, I had not heard of this user and have never had any interaction with them previously. I realize anyone is allowed to comment at AN/I regardless of previous interaction, however, I think that the diffs I provided here along with this diff to Wolfchild's block log (numerous blocks specifically for harassing other editors) gives a good picture of what their !vote is really all about. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 20:59, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
Closing this?
Do any admins feel like reviewing this to determine if an interaction ban should be enacted as requested? I'd rather not see another meaningful discussion be archived prematurely. Calidum ¤ 17:48, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, that would be great if someone could help out. Its been going for about a week and a half now, and discussion has slowed down to a crawl. Sergecross73 msg me 15:26, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
Alternative proposal: block for MaranoFan
Having taken this into consideration, I have decided that it is in the best interest of MaranoFan and the rest of the community if I withdraw this proposal. There is no way this proposal will succeed, and furthermore, it is only adding to the incessant, exponentially increasing drama. No further !votes will be taken into consideration: the final decision is Oppose. (non-admin closure) --Ches (talk) (contribs) 13:51, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Suggested by User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi, who stated that MF's "behaviour even here has been less than collegial at times". MaranoFan's canvassing of other editors and lack of evidence supporting a reason for an IBAN between them and Winkelvi calls for WP:BOOMERANG sanctions - not to mention the uncivil behaviour over on my talk page, which MF has stated was directed at me simply because I wanted to archive an escalating thread: Here and here. Posting now to avoid edit conflicting - will edit this post as time goes on. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 14:03, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support as co-proposer, if that is a word. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 14:03, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - Marano's actions don't especially seem worse than any of the other 3-4 editors involved in this. Unless we're doling out blocks to everyone involved and meddling in all of this, this is not a good proposal. (An iban solves this issue better.) Sergecross73 msg me 14:56, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose per Sergecross. An interaction ban would solve pretty much everything, I would hope. Of course, if the ban fails to gain consensus and shenanigans continue - yes, blocks (for multiple editors) would likely be in order. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 15:02, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. MF has done nothing to warrant a block. She was provoked by some comments made about her, but "gossip" does not justify what she is asking. That said, asking for something you're not entitled to doesn't give rise to a block. Coretheapple (talk) 15:14, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. The discussion is about an IBAN for WV and MF. That's it. If anything grows out out of this discussion then an IBAN for WV and MF is what is needed.--ML (talk) 19:53, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - A block is not justified and would only address (roughly) half of the problem.- MrX 19:58, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. As MrX notes, this would solve only part of the problem (though I reckon one-fourth, not one-half). Calidum ¤ 21:37, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. Zero justification. MaranoFan is a good-faith editor who has been trying to do their best. This is a partisan proposal. Softlavender (talk) 01:31, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose as this is just another attempt by WV's meat puppet to attack an editor they disagree with. Legacypac (talk) 04:53, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support - I would support based on the the reasons given. There is nothing good-faith about MF, but I will agree that she has been trying her best (at being disruptive, rude and disrespectful). I don't think an IBAN would be sufficient as MF just can't help herself. — Calvin999 09:24, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - The whole notion of this discussion is laughable. Some admin please speedy archive this. Lolol.--MaranoFan (talk) 09:29, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- You can't oppose (or support) a block on yourself. It's obvious that you wouldn't agree. You're not even taking this seriously and you are being disrespectful. Also, no admin will help you when you are calling them "some admin". — Calvin999 15:24, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yes you can. There are no restrictions on who can vote; I done the same thing with myself in the past. JAGUAR 16:10, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Didn't I ask you to never communicate with me again. (Rhetorical; doesn't require an answer). 19:45, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Thats irrelevant, what you said is objectively wrong, and any number of people would have said the same thing if he hadn't. And even that's ignoring the insane odds against this poorly thought out proposal. You're only reinforcing the idea that you're probably amongst the group of 3-4 editors that can't stop with the petty bickering that inspired a call for an Iban in the first place. Sergecross73 msg me 00:40, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
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- It is relevant, shows you are an uninvolved editor. MF wants the IBAN too, so. Several editors here have said Oppose but have written that is is still a viable option to block MF. So it is more than 3-4 really. — Calvin999 08:32, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Thats irrelevant, what you said is objectively wrong, and any number of people would have said the same thing if he hadn't. And even that's ignoring the insane odds against this poorly thought out proposal. You're only reinforcing the idea that you're probably amongst the group of 3-4 editors that can't stop with the petty bickering that inspired a call for an Iban in the first place. Sergecross73 msg me 00:40, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Didn't I ask you to never communicate with me again. (Rhetorical; doesn't require an answer). 19:45, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yes you can. There are no restrictions on who can vote; I done the same thing with myself in the past. JAGUAR 16:10, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- You can't oppose (or support) a block on yourself. It's obvious that you wouldn't agree. You're not even taking this seriously and you are being disrespectful. Also, no admin will help you when you are calling them "some admin". — Calvin999 15:24, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - There doesn't seem to be a legitimate justification to block MaranoFan, so long as he agrees to keep his comments civil. Lack of evidence and canvassing, while not encouraged behavior, isn't a "blockable" offense to me - provided that he stops the canvassing when asked. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 15:29, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose MF has done nothing to deserve this proposition of a block. Calvin on the other hand, well... JAGUAR 15:48, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- The feeling is reassuringly mutual, Jaguar. Please grow up and stop harassing me/mentioning me/talking about me. You're coming across like a child. — Calvin999 19:47, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- I was just pointing out the fact that anybody can vote in any debate, even if it's a block imposed on the intended user. I don't know how that's considered harassing. Believe me, I would be over the moon if somebody created a sub-thread "Proposed interaction ban between Calvin and Jaguar". JAGUAR 21:29, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- The feeling is reassuringly mutual, Jaguar. Please grow up and stop harassing me/mentioning me/talking about me. You're coming across like a child. — Calvin999 19:47, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - Since MF is a good-faith editor, a block for this user is a little too much. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:24, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose-My vote is probably not needed here, but I'll give it anyway. It is unfair to block only MaranoFan. Display name 99 (talk) 13:47, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Arbitrary break
Hatting this before the childish back-and-forth continues. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 19:30, 29 March 2016 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
MaranoFan, it would be within your best interest not to badger all the Oppose !voters. This will not help your case. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 19:10, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
Good one, NE Ent. Thanks for the initial confusion, the good hearty laugh, commemorating the spirit of the day, and closing this nonsense. Best to you,-- WV ● ✉ ✓ 23:50, 1 April 2016 (UTC) |
YuHuw's-endless disruptive edit war against the consensus:
It is true for every page he is editing from his last appearance on wikipedia under this name . Below only several examples: Please pay your special attention on his meaningless revert argumentation.
The user constantly distorts RS he cites or reverts without meaningful argumentation.Please help Неполканов (talk) 18:32, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
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- [| This page ] might shed some more light on this issue. It looks to be a long term issue ! KoshVorlon 18:56, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Yes please look at this edit in particular [143] these meat-puppets gang up on anyone who touch their turf [144]. Also pay very close attention to the evidence where Неполканов exposes himself as a puppet presented on this page [145]. The lady doth protest too much, methinks. There are also several ANI cases to read through to catch up. Неполканов is an archetypal boy who cries wolf. YuHuw (talk) 04:58, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- First you claim that some conspiracy of missionaries is active in the articles, now you're claiming that a post where Неполканов lists the members of a consensus is him confessing to meat puppetry? That's just asinine, and yet another instance where you clearly are not assuming good faith. Please, show all the times where I've come to Неполканов's defense before you came in with your disruptive editing. If you can't provide such evidence, then don't make such accusations. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:46, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yes please look at this edit in particular [143] these meat-puppets gang up on anyone who touch their turf [144]. Also pay very close attention to the evidence where Неполканов exposes himself as a puppet presented on this page [145]. The lady doth protest too much, methinks. There are also several ANI cases to read through to catch up. Неполканов is an archetypal boy who cries wolf. YuHuw (talk) 04:58, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
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- YuHuw has a recurring problem where he ignores any consensus that he doesn't agree with, handles points raised for that consensus by either ignoring it, pretending he has already addressed it, changing the subject, or attributing (if perhaps pseudo-civilly) unevidenced bad-faith motives to others. This can be readily seen on my talk page and at Talk:Karaims. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:46, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- Ian, I have apologized for inadvertently upsetting your religious conviction s so many times [146] I am losing count. It was the week of Purim vacation and I was a little high spirited. I am really embarrassed and sorry about it. Everyone makes mistakes. There is no need to bare a grudge on the matter. You have in all innocence taken the wrong side on this matter. I am indeed the one who encourages WP:BRD discussion to reach consensus (extensively) just as you recommend, while the meat-puppets who WP:CANVASS each other blatantly (as noticed by another editor here) -and have sadly duped you- are the ones who don't if you could only get past your anger at my comment on Christian missionary activity then you might be able to see that more clearly. I sincerely wish you all the best Ian. Take care. YuHuw (talk) 06:14, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
P.S. Ian, you have not read carefully the edit he made which exposes him but if you follow the instructions posted you will discover as clear as day. I will post them again for you here. Неполканов must be considered to be either a clumsy meat-puppet or a sockpuppet of a clumsy puppet-master, as justified by examining the third occurrence of Неполканов (use the find function) on this page. It all brings into serious and justified question whether there is any sincere motivation behind complaints against me by those three extremely close friends. Best regards. YuHuw (talk) 06:20, 1 April 2016 (UTC) P.P.S. concerning WP:NPA every time one of them calls me Kaz it is a Personal attack for the resons specified in the history of their case against me. You can see the results of that personal attack in the history of my talk page[147]. Three months of asking them to stop dozens and dozens of times when we all know what that means is why the wavering of WP:AGF in my attitude is justified. Nevertheless, I am still cordial and welcome input which is content based as long as there are no personal attacks like calling me stupid. [148] YuHuw (talk) 06:31, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
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- For the hundredth time, my convictions (whatever they are) do not play into this. Whether someone is claiming that Muslims, Masons, or lizard people are taking over, I have a problem with any paranoid rant claiming any sort of editorial conspiracies as you have proclaimed. That you keep insisting otherwise, especially since you have no evidence, is a sign that you are not assuming good faith (and without the assumption of good faith, all pseudo-civility is worthless). Here we go again with you attributing bad-faith motives without evidence.
- You cannot pretend to be engaged in BRD when you are continually reverting to your version and consider any consensus that disagrees with you to be the result of canvassing and meatpuppetry. Ian.thomson (talk) 06:44, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
There is no rant, there are only mistakes and apologies. Everyone makes mistakes Ian. Perhaps your conflict of interest in this matter makes your comments unhelpful. The discussion pages are proof of my frequent requests for sources and discussion to reach consensus whenever there has been a revert as per WP:BRD. I reverted you twice in a row but explained with good faith here [149] and your current version of that page remains to this day after you ignored the discussions which led to that originally accepted version in the first place [150]. Instead of taking us forward, you took it backwards but nevertheless I supported you in good faith. You just have a grudge against me which is very unfortunate. And I even supported you against that IP editor remember as a sign of my good faith towards you. [151] You blocked that editor with no evidence besides two edits on Karaims as a puppet of Kaz remember? YuHuw (talk) 06:50, 1 April 2016 (UTC) By the way, this IP [152] was yours too wasn't it Ian? YuHuw (talk) 06:57, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- You call feeding Kaz's accusations of admin abuse support? The IP editor behaved like Kaz and his IP address is located in the same place as other proven Kaz socks. Perhaps your agreement with him is clouding your judgement.
- And what exactly would my conflict of interest be? If you are going to once again suggest religion (which again, would be assuming bad faith), then the only non-hypocritical course of action would leave the articles on Karaites and so forth to atheists and pagans.
- As for the IP, that's obviously Kaz, and for you to say it is mine is a damn lie and a sign that you not assuming good faith. There is no reasonable way you could make such an accusation in good faith. Ian.thomson (talk) 07:08, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Ian wrote: "You call feeding Kaz's accusations of admin abuse support? " I am sorry I do not understand your meaning in this sentence. YuHuw (talk) 07:12, 1 April 2016 (UTC) And how can someone be a duck of an editor which has not been on wikipedia for probably years? Which proven sock of Kaz was not based in Cardiff? I have read through all the case history while I was accused and I do not recall the evidence you are referring to. If you have a fact to state please present it clearly. And I agreed with you not that IP remember that is why I reverted him and restored your version[153]. Leaving the Karaites articles to atheists and pagans might be a good idea. :)
- But why do you assume the IP I asked whether was you is obviously Kaz? I only asked because it looks like you had similar interests. Why on earth would it be bad faith? I see no similarity between Kaz's edits and that IP's edits. YuHuw (talk) 07:19, 1 April 2016 (UTC) I am not calling you any kind of puppet Ian. Everyone edits accidentally when signed out from time to time. It is no crime. But as it offends you so much I take back the question. Jeez YuHuw (talk) 07:22, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- I am sorry I forgot to respond to your question in your edit summary [154]. The thought had not crossed my mind. Meanwhile you on the other hand who decided to get involved after the matter was closed did call me Kaz after I was vindicated remember? I wrote to you about it[155] and your disagreement with the admin decision is the source of your conflict of interest in this matter. As an admin yourself you should already be aware that the Kaz puppets are extremely cold. Best regards. YuHuw (talk) 07:50, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
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- The IP you mentioned behaves the opposite of me in this matter, and behaves like you and Kaz (and it locates to the sort of ISPs that Kaz has been known to use). You asked a question that insisted that that was my IP address. Doing so by accident would be incredibly stupid, which is why I cannot imagine that it was an accident. Having calmed myself down, I still cannot see how someone could ask such a question in good faith. Trolling is unacceptable here, even if it's to try and have your way in an article.
- I was going to just suggest that maybe you need to be topic-banned. But if you keep trolling, I'm going to push for a block. Ian.thomson (talk) 09:06, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- You clearly have not calmed down and perhaps you never will with regards to me which is extremely unfortunate. Nevertheless, and in all sincerity, please provide one example of me trolling in this discussion above as you claim and tell me kindly in all good faith please as I have been very cordial with you, what exactly I said why exactly it is trolling and how exactly I should have expressed the concept in a way that you would not have considered trolling. Considering your conflict of interest concerning the matter one would expect there should be a Wiki policy against you being involved with me again. If however, you have nothing constructive to say and will only try to threaten and intimidate me again then I would prefer you simply do not post anything in response to this at all as I will find it yet another example of harassment from you which I have to remind you I have already asked once you to stop. Take it easy. YuHuw (talk) 20:49, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- You said that an IP address that clearly behaves more like you or Kaz belonged to me. How is that not trolling? Ian.thomson (talk) 04:28, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- I did not say that. And sadly no-one involved in this behaves like me. If they did we would all be enjoying pleasant discussions on talk pages sharing knowledge like gentlemen about content and there would be no ANI postings, no insults, no attempts to extract personal information, no canvassing, no-edit-warring by meat-puppetry, no attempts to identify each other, no blocking IPs for 2 reasonable edits, no harassment and definitely no threats of any kind. That is what I imagined could happen when I signed up and that is what I was still hoping for after a month of signing up despite having suffered all of the above which has continued to now nearly 4 months down the line. I am not so snowy white anymore and have become more cynical about wikipedia but have not given up all hope yet. P.S. if you want some examples of trolling take a look at some of these edits [156] especially [157][158][159]. You should also know that Kaz is their code-word for calling someone a Pedo. It might be best to stop calling people Kaz and unravel yourself from their dupe until you have become familiar with their whole game first. If I knew 4 moths ago what I know now, I would never have signed up to defend User:Wbm1058 in the first place [160]. Take care. YuHuw (talk) 19:30, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Please can you stop these unsubstantiated allegations that other editors have accused you of sexual offences. This kind of trolling by YuHuw is a breach of of the Wikipedia:No personal attacks policy.-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:53, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- YuHuw, here you said "By the way, this IP [161] was yours too wasn't it Ian?" That IP address is one that obviously behaves like either you or Kaz. Now you are straight up lying when the evidence is on the very page, in this very conversation. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:53, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- The IP has no behavior comparable to me. Your spin-doctoring, harassing, personal attacks, breach of assuming good faith, trolling, etc. are all too much. I have tried to be cordial but this conversation is going no-where. You should simply be saying sorry for calling me a "Kaz" and we will leave it at that. But you won't so I am taking a break. I am not going to respond here again unless someone neutral with some knowledge of the history @Someguy1221: @Liz: @Zzuuzz:steps in to try and mediate between us. Take care. YuHuw (talk) 04:50, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Of the two of us, who has been reverting Toddy1 on topics relating to Karaites, Keraites, and so forth? The IP is closer to you than me, and denying that would just be further trolling. Ian.thomson (talk) 10:28, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- The IP has no behavior comparable to me. Your spin-doctoring, harassing, personal attacks, breach of assuming good faith, trolling, etc. are all too much. I have tried to be cordial but this conversation is going no-where. You should simply be saying sorry for calling me a "Kaz" and we will leave it at that. But you won't so I am taking a break. I am not going to respond here again unless someone neutral with some knowledge of the history @Someguy1221: @Liz: @Zzuuzz:steps in to try and mediate between us. Take care. YuHuw (talk) 04:50, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- I did not say that. And sadly no-one involved in this behaves like me. If they did we would all be enjoying pleasant discussions on talk pages sharing knowledge like gentlemen about content and there would be no ANI postings, no insults, no attempts to extract personal information, no canvassing, no-edit-warring by meat-puppetry, no attempts to identify each other, no blocking IPs for 2 reasonable edits, no harassment and definitely no threats of any kind. That is what I imagined could happen when I signed up and that is what I was still hoping for after a month of signing up despite having suffered all of the above which has continued to now nearly 4 months down the line. I am not so snowy white anymore and have become more cynical about wikipedia but have not given up all hope yet. P.S. if you want some examples of trolling take a look at some of these edits [156] especially [157][158][159]. You should also know that Kaz is their code-word for calling someone a Pedo. It might be best to stop calling people Kaz and unravel yourself from their dupe until you have become familiar with their whole game first. If I knew 4 moths ago what I know now, I would never have signed up to defend User:Wbm1058 in the first place [160]. Take care. YuHuw (talk) 19:30, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- You said that an IP address that clearly behaves more like you or Kaz belonged to me. How is that not trolling? Ian.thomson (talk) 04:28, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- You clearly have not calmed down and perhaps you never will with regards to me which is extremely unfortunate. Nevertheless, and in all sincerity, please provide one example of me trolling in this discussion above as you claim and tell me kindly in all good faith please as I have been very cordial with you, what exactly I said why exactly it is trolling and how exactly I should have expressed the concept in a way that you would not have considered trolling. Considering your conflict of interest concerning the matter one would expect there should be a Wiki policy against you being involved with me again. If however, you have nothing constructive to say and will only try to threaten and intimidate me again then I would prefer you simply do not post anything in response to this at all as I will find it yet another example of harassment from you which I have to remind you I have already asked once you to stop. Take it easy. YuHuw (talk) 20:49, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
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I looked at YuHuw edit history, and I see a lot of reverts with no explanation, claiming that people are lying or sockpuppets, etc. In the discussion above he flatly refuses to accept that he did anything wrong, and the accuses somebody (unclear who) of harassment with no evidence. This has to stop. If YuHuw does not stop accusing people of bad faith and reverting without explanation admin action is necessary IMO. YuHuw should focus the energy in a more constructive way. --OpenFuture (talk) 12:32, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Looking at the edit history of Keraites, I am really turned off by the edit summaries: "lying in edit summary to pretend he is removing something", "This is the 4th or 5th revert of this issue by this user since he has re-signed to WP with a new ID", "undo restoration of User:Ancietsteppe's POV by Meatpuppet", "incessant edit summary insults is very disparaging and harassing", "revert edits by "YuHuw". If you read the new source he added, it does not support the statement he cited it for. Typical of Kaz", and on and on. But I can't see how we can single anyone out for sanctions without sanctioning the whole lot of you. So the seemingly endless drama-board threads related to this have gone on for too long. The above is for me, too mind-numbing and TL;DR for me to slog through it all. I'm going to try to take this to Talk:Keraites and attempt to sort out the most recent two-edit revert war on that page. Y'all should focus more on content and stop disparaging each other. wbm1058 (talk) 17:24, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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- YuHuw is editing as an IP editor again. He is "answering" a question raised at Talk:Keraites#"Molokan" heresy. His "answer" consisted of rehashing the statement in the article and then changing the subject.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:49, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- It's increasingly bizarre that someone who objects so vehemently to being called Kaz should then proceed to act exactly like... KAZ. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 07:57, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- YuHuw is editing as an IP editor again. He is "answering" a question raised at Talk:Keraites#"Molokan" heresy. His "answer" consisted of rehashing the statement in the article and then changing the subject.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:49, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
More WP:BATTLEGROUND from Jytdog at Berylliosis
A month ago I was blissfully unaware of Jytdog. Then he caused a car crash at the RepRap project article, which gave rise to two deeply unfavourable media reports on Wikipedia's practices [162][163] and this ANI thread. Today he's suggesting I need to get a "Moron Diploma".
Both of these show just the same WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, with editors and their work dismissed as "Garbage content based on garbage sources".
I noticed this today at User talk:Wtshymanski#Edit war warning. As those with long memories will know, there is little love lost between Wtshymanski and myself, but I've always recognised that he knew his subject - a courtesy clearly not being extended by Jytdog here.
As is typical (and to some degree commendable) this began by Jytdog removing sources that he took issue with for being unreliable. The trouble is that he removed a whole section to do so, on the far-from-controversial claim that there are toxicity hazards to working with beryllium. He proceeded to 4RR edit war [164][165][166][167] to remove this. Much better editing would have been (if he dislikes these sources so much) to have found some other sources, from the vast numbers that are out there on this uncontroversial and widely described topic.
The main problem though is less what he did and more how he goes about it. Just take a look at the talk page comments, accusing Wtshymanski of edit-warring and my talk page (14 posts tonight!). See also WP:RSN#Documents uploaded to ScribD. This battlegrounding is just not acceptable here - other editors, even myself, just do not deserve this bile from Jytdog. This is far from a new problem either, ANIs passim. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:11, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
- Andy is angry at me and I hear that but he is so angry he is not thinking straight.
- I removed one sentence (not a "whole section) from the lead that became a subject of dispute - here is the relevant diff where it is being restored by Wtshymansk. I know I am too harsh sometimes. What is completely unacceptable is Andy's behavior here. His comments here and here are inappropriate for an article Talk page. He is clearly more focused on me than on the actual sources and contents there, not dealing at all with the actual problems I raised on the Talk page.
- As he acknowledges he was attracted to the article via the Talk page of Wtshymansk where I had left an left] a 3RR notice, which appears to be on his watchlist as he has commented there many times; as shortly after I left that comment he came to the article, which he had never edited before, and reverted me and then shortly after that responded to me at W's Talk page here. That is blatant HOUNDING and edit warring too, as there was already a section open at the Talk page for discussion.
- As I did at W's talk page, I warned him again on his talk page not to turn Wikipedia into a WP:BATTLEFIELD and not follow me around picking fights. It is good that he opened this ANI instead of continuing to do so.
- About the "moron diploma" thing, as I noted on his talk page here his HOUNDING is frustrating me, and yes I let myself write something snarky. What I had written was if he accepts the one source from ScribD he should accept the other, but then I removed that (I disowned it - because it is clearly inflammatory and there is no point in going there) and my final comment was here. I removed it before he even reacted to it (I am guessing before he saw it). His inappropriate comments still stand.
- And about the "two deeply unfavourable media reports" - you can read those yourselves. It is Andy's take that they are "deeply unfavourable". I think I represented WP pretty well in the 2nd one where i had a chance to speak.
- Going forward I hope to have as little interaction with Andy Dingley as possible: I don't much like the way he evaluates sources nor the way he operates, screwing up articles pursuing me and distorting things in this ANI filing (bringing sources to RSN is "battleground" behavior? no way. It is true that his position is getting little support there - that happens sometimes). In any case I will expect the same from him, however this ANI comes out. I very much hope that his pursuit of me does not become a recurrent issue. I will not, and have not, pursued him.
- I am not going to post further here and will accept whatever the community says. Again, I acknowledge I can be harsh but for Andy to follow me to an article and blindly revert, adding back crappy, OFFTOPIC content harms the encyclopedia and he should get dinged for that. Jytdog (talk) 21:35, 31 March 2016 (UTC) (clarifying redaction made Jytdog (talk) 22:59, 1 April 2016 (UTC))
- Does this look like "crappy, OFFTOPIC content" to anyone else? Andy Dingley (talk) 22:08, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
- That is not the dif under dispute. Again you misrepresent things. Bah. here is where you added back in the crappy, OFFTOPIC content. and i should add crappy-because-badly sourced, and crappy-because-carrying-out-an-OFFTOPIC-dispute-in-the-citations content. Even so, in the dif you bring, you show that you added better sources (keeping the crappy ones, ack) but you drill yet deeper into the question being fought out in the citations of the original crappy content. This article is about a disease, and whether or not Beryllium was used in lighting fixtures has nothing at all to do with the topic. It is not clear to me that you are even aware what the topic is, so focused on your anger at me, are you. said yoda. Jytdog (talk) 22:42, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
- Does this look like "crappy, OFFTOPIC content" to anyone else? Andy Dingley (talk) 22:08, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment Possible trout in response to Jytdog's initial action(s), boomerang for the filer of this report as frivolous and pointy as well as his own obvious battleground behavior that escalated things needlessly. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 22:16, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Well hello again Wikelvi, fancy meeting you here! Andy Dingley (talk) 22:50, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
- Erm ... the RepRap article has had some very obvious problems, and Jytdog pointed them out. Whether you think the Motherboard piece was a good thing or a bad thing very much depends on your approach to content quality. I thought Jytdog did a very good job describing the problems Wikipedia articles like that often suffer from. (See Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2016-03-23/In_the_media.) Andreas JN466 04:12, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- He can describe the problems without blanking 80% of an article. It's not what he does that's the problem it's how he does it. Other editors shouldn't have to put up with the constant abuse that is Jytdog's seemingly only way of communicating with other people. He is not the sole custodian of sacred knowledge, but that's how he seems to operate. Blanking the work of others because it's "Garbage content based on garbage sources" is both inaccurate and wholly disrespectful. Other editors do have something to contribute here, not just him.
- Nor is the result of this a positive improvement in content. What's the point in stripping references that don't meet some arbitrary rule if the content is then simply wrong? The RepRap article said afterwards "the company behind RepRap folded a year ago", which was wrong on both counts and defamatory to the subject. The article on acute beryllium poisoning is badly confused over the two exposure routes for beryllium and why those two different compounds give rise to two clinically very different conditions. Jytdog is so busy steam-rollering his view of which sources must be deleted that he takes no time to actually understand the topic, and he drives away anyone else who does. This is not a positive outcome to the project. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:36, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- For a complaint about WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour, this filing does seem rather ... WP:BATTLEGROUND-y. Alexbrn (talk) 08:17, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- FFS. Guys, the content looks perfectly acceptable but it does not seem to me to belong in the lede, as it's distinctly niche. Please read WP:LAME, bury the hatchet and move on. We have enough trouble fighting off the nutters without taking lumps out of each other over things where reasonable people might differ. Guy (Help!) 11:26, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
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- There is "differ" and there is "delete the lot, edit-war to keep doing it and abuse other editors in the process". Just look at his outright harassment of CaptainYuge over the RepRap page. Look at the shit list of editors he posted to that talk: page of editors that he had decided were unfit to edit there. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:36, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- Uninvolved non-admin comment
- Best case scenario: both users end this discussion and move on to more important things, and the discussion is closed with no further action.
- Alternative scenario: one of the two users insist on WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour by continuing this discussion, in which case I move that user be given a (short) block.
- Worst case scenario: both users continue this pointless back-and-forth, in which case I suggest both be given a (short) block. Jeppiz (talk) 11:41, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- just fyi, the focus on whether Be was used in lamps and when, has been pursued yet further at the article about this medical condition. The article was very bad (version before my edits) and I dramatically improved it, bring it in line with MEDMOS and MEDRS (version when i was done). This focus on a TRIVIAL and OFFTOPIC point of content seems to be driven by my participation at the article, so i have unwatched the article. That aspect of this is just a waste of everyone's time and doesn't improve the encyclopedia or the community; quite the opposite; I will leave it to others to maintain the article. That is just about the actual point of content in the article. I understand that Andy is upset with my behavior and of course that can continue to be discussed here. I just want the article content not to get warped as Andy pursues me. Jytdog (talk) 18:54, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
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- You say " I have no desire to be in this discussion. " at Talk: as if that's a good thing. You're great at seagull management, but you refuse to work with other editors. This is Wikipedia, not Jytdogpedia, you have to learn to work with other editors.
- As to the issue of Be in fluorescent tubes, this is significant in the history of berylliosis firstly because it demonstrates the typical risk of berylliosis: this is an occupational condition, it's not naturally occurring. Secondly this is the exposure context where the hazard was first recognised, and hygiene measures taken to avoid its risk in the future. It belongs here, in any comprehensive or historical coverage of the condition.
- This issue, and its discussion, is off-topic for an ANI thread but if you insist on treating it as an attack on other editors then it's going to get a response here. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:35, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: Agree with the comment by Alexbrn who aptly stated regarding WP:BATTLEGROUND problems with the filer of this report: "For a complaint about BATTLEGROUND behaviour, this filing does seem rather ... BATTLEGROUND-y." In addition, Winkelvi is correct by pointing out that WP:BOOMERANG could be applicable here regarding the filer for WP:POINT disruption. I've looked over the relevant article history and evidence presented above and agree with Jytdog that these comments DIFF 1 and DIFF 2 on the talk page are disruptive and harm the community's ability to improve the article. Jytdog should be commended for efforts to improve the site with regards to application of WP:MEDMOS and WP:MEDRS. — Cirt (talk) 22:51, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Cirt, are you trying to redefine WP:INVOLVED here? You and Winkelvi are behind the most fatuous and obviously biased deletion I've seen at Commons in years: Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Heidi Cruz_MontTXFundraiser Feb 27 2016--two3.jpg Commons:Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/User problems#Civility and tone. There's a thoroughly trivial deletion request at Commons that you started, I commented upon, and now you show up here just to cause trouble. Coincidence? Andy Dingley (talk) 23:41, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- The assumptions of bad faith by the filer are remarkable evidence of further WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior, or at the very least, failure to recognize I've already commented in multiple threads on this ANI page in the past 24 hours about many different topics. — Cirt (talk) 01:58, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- So tell us Cirt, just what did bring you to an article on this obscure medical condition? You're fooling no-one. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:51, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- The assumptions of bad faith by the filer are remarkable evidence of further WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior, or at the very least, failure to recognize I've already commented in multiple threads on this ANI page in the past 24 hours about many different topics. — Cirt (talk) 01:58, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Cirt, are you trying to redefine WP:INVOLVED here? You and Winkelvi are behind the most fatuous and obviously biased deletion I've seen at Commons in years: Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Heidi Cruz_MontTXFundraiser Feb 27 2016--two3.jpg Commons:Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/User problems#Civility and tone. There's a thoroughly trivial deletion request at Commons that you started, I commented upon, and now you show up here just to cause trouble. Coincidence? Andy Dingley (talk) 23:41, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Edit warring and disruption by Andy Dingley
- Update: It looks like Jytdog has chosen to disengage himself from the article Berylliosis. ("unwatching")
Despite this, unfortunately it appears the filer of this ANI thread has continued the edit-warring, disruption, and WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. When Jytdog left, the filer picked right up edit-warring against a different editor. Some examples of recent disruption:
- 10:49, 31 March 2016 -- "restore section - there is no contradiction between these two"
- 15:07, 31 March 2016 -- "Restore with another ref"
- 23:52, 1 April 2016 -- "You've been told once already. Undid revision 713104471 by QuackGuru"
Unfortunately, this now appears to be an ongoing pattern of disruption against multiple editors by the ANI filer. — Cirt (talk) 02:44, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
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- [Note: Jytdog has since [168] [169] continued to edit this page Andy Dingley (talk) 14:08, 6 April 2016 (UTC)]
- Cirt, please do not remove this note for a third time. You are making a now false statement in defence of Jytdog, who has clearly not behaved as he promised to. To keep reinstating this claim, against an obvious edit history to the contrary, is to whitewash the behaviour of the subject of this ANI post. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:34, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Classic content dispute. Andy, please stop bringing these content disputes, front-loaded in your OPs with trumped-up unrelated drama, to ANI. This is strictly a content dispute, and resolvable on the article's talk page by discussion, consensus, DR, RFC, whatever it takes. I'm inclined to agree with others that a boomerang is possibly in order because it's the second time in a month or so that you've wasted ANI time on this sort of thing [170]. Softlavender (talk) 14:18, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Agree with Softlavender about WP:BOOMERANG here, especially after reading the close summary at the prior ANI thread cited by Softlavender, where admin Spike Wilbury closed it as: "Content dispute, primarily. ... These ridiculous threads where content disputes are spilling over into AN/I". These frivolous ANI thread filings by the current ANI filer are a waste of the community's patience and disruptive to the project. — Cirt (talk) 16:29, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Hengistmate has been deliberately trolling and socking me for years, and has been repeatedly blocked as a result. That is not a "content dispute" and it was thoroughly deserving of ANI. Nor does it have any relation to Jytdog's behaviour here.
- Agree with Softlavender about WP:BOOMERANG here, especially after reading the close summary at the prior ANI thread cited by Softlavender, where admin Spike Wilbury closed it as: "Content dispute, primarily. ... These ridiculous threads where content disputes are spilling over into AN/I". These frivolous ANI thread filings by the current ANI filer are a waste of the community's patience and disruptive to the project. — Cirt (talk) 16:29, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
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- If you are complaining of me edit-warring here (despite Jytdog already being at 4RR), then you know where ANEW is.
- Cirt, you are only here because of a bizarre deletion request you and Winkelvi are involved in at Commons and both of you saw this as a good opportunity to troll me here. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:36, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Pure content dispute, no clear evidence of edit warring submitted by OP (edit: referring to Andy Dingley). In fact, the claim of "4RR" implies that Jytdog violated 3RR on some article. I don't see what article that is. As of the filing of this complaint, on Berylliosis, Jytdog had only performed 3 non-consecutive edits in the previous 24 hours, and one was not a revert as far as I can tell. The claim of edit warring seems spurious as well, or at least unproven. I concur that a boomerang sanction or admonishment should lie, not only for the (I'll assume unintentionally) misleading complaint, but also for the combative stream of responses in this thread. This is a massive waste of time. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 17:13, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Mendaliv:I thought the term "edit warring" and "disruption" meant any type of edit warring, not only solely 3RR itself. Surely there is ongoing disruption at the article by the original ANI filer. — Cirt (talk) 17:23, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oh, sorry, where I said OP I was referring to Andy Dingley's OP in the top section. Perhaps I should have made my comment up there rather than down here. I've added a clarifier. Anyway, I agree that there's actually ongoing disruption at Berylliosis by Andy Dingley, as you've shown above Cirt. I think that taken with Andy's conduct in the original thread here, some sanction is merited. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 17:27, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- And now that Andy has retroactively amended his initial posting to include diffs of a supposed "4RR edit war", we can see that there's a greater than 24 hour gap in the claimed reverts. While the term "4RR" is meaningless (there is no four revert rule), terms like that are almost exclusively used to refer to a violation of 3RR involving more reverts (actually 4RR shouldn't be used at all since a 3RR violation necessarily involves 4 reverts). Someone making four non-consecutive reverts in a 72 hour period hasn't violated 3RR. If Andy intends to prove that those four reverts add up to an edit war, I think we're going to need more than that. Worst case, Jytdog should be told to be careful not to violate 3RR, and that edit warring can be called in the absence of a 3RR violation. I'm more concerned with Andy Dingley's conduct. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 18:02, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- When you complain over a lack of diffs, don't then call to block someone when they give you those diffs! 3RR/24 is a "bright line" for edit-warring. As any of ANEW will inform you though, this is not the only indication of edit-warring. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:12, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- And now that Andy has retroactively amended his initial posting to include diffs of a supposed "4RR edit war", we can see that there's a greater than 24 hour gap in the claimed reverts. While the term "4RR" is meaningless (there is no four revert rule), terms like that are almost exclusively used to refer to a violation of 3RR involving more reverts (actually 4RR shouldn't be used at all since a 3RR violation necessarily involves 4 reverts). Someone making four non-consecutive reverts in a 72 hour period hasn't violated 3RR. If Andy intends to prove that those four reverts add up to an edit war, I think we're going to need more than that. Worst case, Jytdog should be told to be careful not to violate 3RR, and that edit warring can be called in the absence of a 3RR violation. I'm more concerned with Andy Dingley's conduct. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 18:02, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oh, sorry, where I said OP I was referring to Andy Dingley's OP in the top section. Perhaps I should have made my comment up there rather than down here. I've added a clarifier. Anyway, I agree that there's actually ongoing disruption at Berylliosis by Andy Dingley, as you've shown above Cirt. I think that taken with Andy's conduct in the original thread here, some sanction is merited. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 17:27, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Andy Dingley has now followed me to yet another article and his intent to WP:HOUND is clear - here is where he reverted me, and again restoring badly/unsourced sourced content (this time what was sourced, was sourced to Investopedia). I am now requesting a 48 hour block to prevent further disruption and a 1-way interaction ban for Andy with regard to me. Jytdog (talk) 00:02, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
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- "Followed"? To an article I edited months ago? Don't flatter yourself.
- There is no justification in using a valid complaint against a source to start blanking whole paragraphs as well, when they contain simply sourceable, uncontroversial content for which there are abundant other sources.
- And what's your excuse for this edit? [171] Sheer carelessness. Which you insisted on doing twice, even when reverted by another editor. You are too blinkered by your desire to Right Great Wrongs to even pay attention to what you're doing. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:22, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I have apparently become your "great wrong" to right. I believe you will be blocked and will face an i-ban for hounding me, but we will see. You are continually bringing unclean hands with your editing decisions here; your edits are clearly POINTy and about me, and not about high-quality content in WP. Jytdog (talk) 00:29, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- You're very good at assigning all sorts of motives to other editors. This was a question about your edits here. Why was your (seriously wrong) edit so important that you had to do it twice, over another editor? Have you even looked at what you did here? Andy Dingley (talk) 00:33, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- I have apparently become your "great wrong" to right. I believe you will be blocked and will face an i-ban for hounding me, but we will see. You are continually bringing unclean hands with your editing decisions here; your edits are clearly POINTy and about me, and not about high-quality content in WP. Jytdog (talk) 00:29, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Angry or not, it is remarkable how often Jytdog is mentioned on this page due to battleground issues. To the point that he even had a ArbCom-case and a indefinite topic ban on his head... The Banner talk 00:12, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support 1 week or 1 month one-way interaction ban: Andy needs to be encouraged to work on something else. I think a short-term interaction ban will do that. If he comes off it and goes right back to pestering Jytdog with spurious nonsense like this, we can talk about something longer term. I'm just not a fan of indef editing restrictions out the gate, and would rather not block a long-term editor when there's another way to convey the message to "Do something else". —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 00:39, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
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- A "one way" ban? Why? So that Jytdog can keep awarding me "Moron Diplomas"? So that he can describe adding needed sources as "crappy, OFFTOPIC content"? Or just so that he can keep describing other editors' work as "Garbage content based on garbage sources" and "demeaning to WP"? And this is all from "Mr Clean Hands"? Andy Dingley (talk) 00:46, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support 1 week or 1 month one-way interaction ban: Agree with Mendaliv, especially "If he comes off it and goes right back to pestering Jytdog with spurious nonsense like this, we can talk about something longer term." This disturbing behavior pattern, now across multiple articles against Jytdog, has gone on long enough. — Cirt (talk) 04:11, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: I just reverted this above mentioned edit by Jytdog. I have not scrutined the history of Jytdog nor read the whole discussion above nor looked at the Beryllium dispute, and I am pretty sure they were in good faith when they made the edit.... but if I should judge their contributions on the basis of this sole edit, I should conclude they are a vandal, or at best that they have not the competence to edit Wikipedia. They actually blindly removed TWICE all the categories, the Commons template, the "Pharmaceutical companies of the United States" navigation box (in which the relevant article was actually linked), the portal templates, the official website. They were removed with edit summaries saying they are spam while none of these are spam. The supposed (a couple of them seems ultimately acceptable to me) spammy external links had been already hidden using the <!-- --> template. Cavarrone 07:56, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Thanks for that fix. Yes I didn't catch that my removal of the WP:ELNO-violating external links included the cats and navbox. Thanks for catching that. Another user removed those ELs after you reverted me. Again, my bad on the cat/navbox removals. Jytdog (talk) 20:39, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support 1 month one-way interaction ban per Medaliv and Cirt. Not much use in making it only 1 week at this point. And keeping open the possibility of revisiting. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:54, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Why? I haven't insinuated that Jytdog is a moron or garbage, as they have. I'm not the one making 4RR edits, or pushed repeated edits that another uninvolved editor has compared to a vandal or a CIR case.
- Cirt is the one calling for an interaction ban, and they're (like Winkelvi) only popping up unannounced because I called them both out over a bogus deletion request at Commons. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:27, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The short answer is because you seem to be refusing to drop the stick here. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:32, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Which stick is that? I've had a stream of abuse from Jytdog and I'm entitled to respond to it. Have I edited the Berylliosis article since? Have you seen my edits since with QuackGuru? Andy Dingley (talk) 23:35, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The short answer is because you seem to be refusing to drop the stick here. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:32, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Agree with Tryptofish here, 1 month one-way interaction ban at this point is probably better than one week, could always revisit at a later point in time. Thank you, Tryptofish, much appreciated, — Cirt (talk) 23:29, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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- So what does bring you here, Cirt, if it's not your push to delete at Commons? I know Winkelvi already happened to be on the carpet at ANI over his behaviour in trying to delete the whole article. You're staying awfully quiet on this. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:32, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Already answered, above. I echo Tryptofish at this point, please drop the stick here. Thank you ever so much, — Cirt (talk) 23:34, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Quoting scary ALLCAPS is no substitute for answering the question. Go on, why are you and Winkelvi here at all if it's not just simple retaliation against another editor who challenged your behaviour at Commons. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:37, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- It is retaliation. They were not involved until you disagreed with them concerning the Heidi Cruz picture above. They should just move along and let unbiased editors work out the issues with Jytdog. It is shameful the way that Admin Cirt is retaliating against your on the spot comments at Commons. Cirt is an admin and he should know better.--ML (talk) 23:42, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Quoting scary ALLCAPS is no substitute for answering the question. Go on, why are you and Winkelvi here at all if it's not just simple retaliation against another editor who challenged your behaviour at Commons. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:37, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Already answered, above. I echo Tryptofish at this point, please drop the stick here. Thank you ever so much, — Cirt (talk) 23:34, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- So what does bring you here, Cirt, if it's not your push to delete at Commons? I know Winkelvi already happened to be on the carpet at ANI over his behaviour in trying to delete the whole article. You're staying awfully quiet on this. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:32, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Andy you have stopped pursuing me out there in the 'pedia and I am grateful for that. And I have heard your concern here about my harshness. I have. If you would agree to let this go, this thread can just be closed or allowed to drift into the archive, and that will be that. I hope you will agree. Jytdog (talk) 05:00, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- I must say that it's incredibly surprising how many WP:BATTLEGROUND complaints there are about Jytdog here. Almost every time I check this noticeboard, in fact. — Omni Flames (talk contribs) 07:19, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- If one develops a bit of a reputation, or if others see a complaint, then it is certainly possible that they can just play "follow the leader." Smoke often indicates fire, but isn't really proof of it. Jytdog deals in a number of truly contentious topics, and as a result faces a lot of criticism. It isn't unreasonable to see someone who themselves is a frequent target of others to develop a bit of a battleground view if they see that others are to an extent engaged in battleground behavior toward them. Yeah, I've had some fairly strong disagreements with him myself, whether he remembers them or not, and I can see that maybe he is a bit too "quick on the trigger" once in a while. In at least some of the topics he edits in, several other editors don't get reported here, but taken to AE to be dealt with there, sometimes rather severely. That doesn't seem to be the case here, thankfully. Personally, I don't see a lot to be done here myself, other than maybe application of a WP:TROUT or smaller fish to one or more individuals, and hope that such a light reprimand might be found acceptable. John Carter (talk) 21:05, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- I must say that it's incredibly surprising how many WP:BATTLEGROUND complaints there are about Jytdog here. Almost every time I check this noticeboard, in fact. — Omni Flames (talk contribs) 07:19, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
Further harassment by Jytdog using SPI
Far from disengaging or "this thread can just be closed or allowed to drift into the archive, and that will be that.", Jytdog has now proceeded to open a deliberately harassing SPI: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Andy Dingley on the basis of no evidence whatsoever.
This is not a new tactic for Jytdog. He did it to CaptainYuge a few weeks ago. In that case he also refused to accept the decision of the SPI and continued to harrass and insult the presumed innocent Yuge: User talk:Jytdog#Final warning for edit warring Although in that same thread he says he wouldn't try it on me! Mind you, given his other statements of ":I am unwatching this article. I have no desire to be in this discussion." and " I do not pursue Andy; this has not happened and you will not see it." and their retrospective lack of accuracy, we can't place too much faith in any such statement.
Baseless accusations of socking with no other purpose are considered to be a form of harassment.
Just above, Mendaliv refers to the possibility of, "If Jytdog starts poking the beehive". I consider this beehive thoroughly poked. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:14, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- NOTE: Most certainly NOT "baseless accusations". Valid evidence presented by Jytdog at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Andy Dingley. ---> Already led to one block on a sock account by admin JzG (talk · contribs). The evidence presented by Jytdog was compelling enough to lead admin JzG to block and in the block log note: "A sock of someone, it doesn't matter much who.". Therefore, Jytdog was correct to file the sock investigation, as it was borne out by the admin action by JzG. Further investigation is needed. — Cirt (talk) 14:34, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- If Jytdog has suspicions about one editor, there are acceptable channels to deal with that. These do not involve raising baseless SPIs on other uninvolved editors, especially not those editors with whom Jytdog is already deeply WP:INVOLVED. False accusations of socking breach NPA and this is not the first time that Jytdog has used this method. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:39, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- The accusations by Jytdog are valid and led to a block by JzG (talk · contribs). Therefore they were not baseless. WP:INVOLVED links to Wikipedia:Administrators. Jytdog is not an administrator, last time I checked. — Cirt (talk) 14:41, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- "The block was good because it was a block." Andy Dingley (talk) 14:46, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Not sure why you are using quotation marks here in a misleading manner. I never said that. — Cirt (talk) 14:54, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- You said, literally, "Therefore". Implying that their baselessness was refuted because they had already been acted upon. This is an obvious logical fallacy. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:48, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- It is reasonable to say that something which is acted upon is not baseless, unless one wishes to imply that the person acting upon it is acting perhaps irrationally. The question is whether Andy is reasonably the sockpuppet master here. I tend to very much doubt that is the case myself, but there are and/or have been cases of editors who seem to be working together which are all but indistinguishable in some cases from sockpuppets. The only way one can know whether an SPI concern is valid is through filing one, ultimately, and, while it might conceivably if done too frequently be seen as an abuse of that procedure, it is at best a very long stretch in at least my eyes to say that a single instance of filing an SPI which is found to be actionable in some way necessarily qualifies primarily as a personal attack on the person perhaps falsely named as the sockmaster. Jytdog can at times be a bit overenthusiastic in some areas, and it may be that in this case the party named is not the sockpuppeteer. But there are conceivably sockpuppets of meatpuppets, or other forms of off-wiki coordination (none of which I suspect here either). There are also, sometimes, simply, old troublemakers coming back at an unfortunate time. The request seems to have been a reasonable one, even if the individual named probably isn't the real sock master, and I can't criticize anyone for basically finding an obvious sock, even if they get the identity of the sockpuppeteer wrong. John Carter (talk) 16:28, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you, John Carter (talk · contribs), I agree that the SPI investigation was warranted, and it is certainly possible the case page name may be changed by the end of it, but there was at least one sock blocked by an admin so far. — Cirt (talk) 16:31, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Cirt: There was a sock blocked by an admin based on behavioral evidence. After the fact, technical evidence proved the account were unrelated. That block should've been overturned unless the account could be tied to a different master.--v/r - TP 19:12, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Read the block log note by JzG (talk · contribs). — Cirt (talk) 19:18, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- You mean, "Clearly not here to contribute to the encyclopedia. A sock of someone, it doesn't matter much who."
- For NOTHERE, that's a hell of a judgement to make for an editor who has made one article space edit, one to the talk: page and two to a user talk:. We can't get real vandals blocked in that time, let alone indeffed.
- As a sock, then "it doesn't matter much who." is shorthand for "indef block from an unproven suspicion" (and in this case, a disproved suspicion). We have, or used to have, some policies that said admins couldn't make arbitrary blocks on their own whim, there had to be some process first. For socking it is SPI. In this case they were blocked during the SPI (Why? What was the urgency for an editor with only one article edit?) and an SPI that then cleared them of being the claimed sock. Yet you are still defending this indef block. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:28, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Read the block log note by JzG (talk · contribs). — Cirt (talk) 19:18, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Cirt: There was a sock blocked by an admin based on behavioral evidence. After the fact, technical evidence proved the account were unrelated. That block should've been overturned unless the account could be tied to a different master.--v/r - TP 19:12, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you, John Carter (talk · contribs), I agree that the SPI investigation was warranted, and it is certainly possible the case page name may be changed by the end of it, but there was at least one sock blocked by an admin so far. — Cirt (talk) 16:31, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- It is reasonable to say that something which is acted upon is not baseless, unless one wishes to imply that the person acting upon it is acting perhaps irrationally. The question is whether Andy is reasonably the sockpuppet master here. I tend to very much doubt that is the case myself, but there are and/or have been cases of editors who seem to be working together which are all but indistinguishable in some cases from sockpuppets. The only way one can know whether an SPI concern is valid is through filing one, ultimately, and, while it might conceivably if done too frequently be seen as an abuse of that procedure, it is at best a very long stretch in at least my eyes to say that a single instance of filing an SPI which is found to be actionable in some way necessarily qualifies primarily as a personal attack on the person perhaps falsely named as the sockmaster. Jytdog can at times be a bit overenthusiastic in some areas, and it may be that in this case the party named is not the sockpuppeteer. But there are conceivably sockpuppets of meatpuppets, or other forms of off-wiki coordination (none of which I suspect here either). There are also, sometimes, simply, old troublemakers coming back at an unfortunate time. The request seems to have been a reasonable one, even if the individual named probably isn't the real sock master, and I can't criticize anyone for basically finding an obvious sock, even if they get the identity of the sockpuppeteer wrong. John Carter (talk) 16:28, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- You said, literally, "Therefore". Implying that their baselessness was refuted because they had already been acted upon. This is an obvious logical fallacy. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:48, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Not sure why you are using quotation marks here in a misleading manner. I never said that. — Cirt (talk) 14:54, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- "The block was good because it was a block." Andy Dingley (talk) 14:46, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- The accusations by Jytdog are valid and led to a block by JzG (talk · contribs). Therefore they were not baseless. WP:INVOLVED links to Wikipedia:Administrators. Jytdog is not an administrator, last time I checked. — Cirt (talk) 14:41, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- just a quick note here; i was not happy filing that SPI and I hope it isn't Andy. As I noted in the filing, the behavior of the new account was just too weird. I'll note here is somebody at 62.255.240.157 (a library in the UK) stirring the pot: dif, dif, dif. The now-blocked Milligansuncle? This is all just weird but I clearly have a new hater. Jytdog (talk) 18:35, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
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- SPI was just closed. I have a bad feeling about all this; the person editing from the library obviously understands how to avoid CU etc. Jytdog (talk) 18:45, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- The SPI was closed. But half an hour later you're still insinuating that 62.255.240.157 is someone's sock (presumably mine!). You also seem to know that it's "a library in the UK", but how you might know such a thing is beyond me.
- You did this over CaptainYuge too. Opening an SPI is one thing, but to continue to insinuate that someone is a sock and the SPI was just wrong not to notice this is harassment. It's also a very convenient reversal of your position over the block of Milligansuncle: when your enemies are blocked arbitrarily, that's "proof". When an SPI concludes against socking though, that's because the SPI must have been wrong, compared to your magic library finding powers. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:04, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- SPI was just closed. I have a bad feeling about all this; the person editing from the library obviously understands how to avoid CU etc. Jytdog (talk) 18:45, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
The block of Milligansuncle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) was based primarily on [172] taken in the context of the totality of the user's edits. I don't give a damn whose sock it is, it's not a new user and definitely not here to help. That kind of JAQing off we can do without. Guy (Help!) 19:25, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Anyone reading the IP's talk page will read that it is a library. And WHOIS says Reading Borough Council (Library Project). Doug Weller talk 19:53, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- If the RIPE is correct, then maybe. The talk page comment is 7 years old though. Looking at the route, it looks (IMHO) much more like a general Virgin retail ISP for South Yorkshire. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:02, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Jytdog, when did you stop beating your wife? Your comments here, "An SPI itself is just an investigation; a question." show that you still, even after this, have no understanding of SPI. As the edit notice on the SPI page itself states, "Do not make accusations without providing evidence. Doing so is a personal attack and will likely be summarily removed." This is not merely a "question", an SPI is a strong insinuation that someone is guilty of an offence with a summary ban. You do not throw such things around lightly. You certainly do not do them in the middle of an ANI thread where the subject of your accusation has shown evidence of your abusive and harassing behaviour.
- Why, in all this, do you feel the need to apologise to Conzar, but not me? Andy Dingley (talk) 19:57, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Conzar is new to WP and doesn't understand how things work here, and if you read what i actually wrote to them, you will see that i didn't apologize. I explained. You are more experienced and usually sane; if you look at the evidence I presented at the SPI and especially the way I presented it, you will see how strange the behavior of the account has been, and how it weirdly pointed to you. And you will see neither glee nor anger in my filing, but puzzlement seeking answers. It is SPI and not SPA ( as in "accusation"). You call it "fatuous" below and cite the instructions above. You have been around long enough to know that a CU would not have been done at SPI if I hadn't brought enough evidence to justify that; I did and it was. You are so angry that you are warping things left and right, and that isn't helping you convince anyone and you put yourself at risk for community action the more you keep pushing this way. You are on a warpath and you should get off it, Andy. Jytdog (talk) 21:39, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- I want to add here that when i wrote the SPI I considered writing: "it may be that this is a really sophisticated sock that wanted me to believe it was Andy (the edit at Calvert's Engine being just a bit too blatantly perfect a "tell") and who ever it is may laugh their asses off after i post this, and will surely laugh harder at how angry it will make Andy, especially if the sockmaster turns out not to be Andy (which would not surprise me)." I didn't write that because it is too conspiratorial sounding and i really wanted the CU done, but it is seeming less unlikely now, especially given the behavior of the 65 IP address subsequent to the SPI filing, which just stirred the pot yet further. anyway, that is the "pot-stirring set-up" theory behind that sock ...Jytdog (talk) 22:04, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Jytdog, DO NOT describe other editors - any other editors - as "usually sane", with the obvious implication that they're currently insane.
- I put myself at risk of community action? When did I describe you as a moron? When did I file an SPI against you? Especially not one so unconvincing that you describe it yourself as "strange" and "weird".
- Stop these attacks. You have gone on long enough. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:39, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Andy I wish you would calm yourself. I said above that I don't want to interact with you, and I don't. You have asked me direct questions twice now. I answered the first, and I will answer the second, and then no more. The SPI had enough evidence that a CU was performed. I didn't file the SPI gleefully nor angrily. I didn't distort anything. And I didn't actually call you a moron and even after I wrote that you should accept the "moron certificate" (as a valid source) in the same way you accepted the other as a valid source, i removed that and acknowledged it was inflammatory, and you keep writing as though I am defending it or even left it in place. I'm not.
- You are not acting rationally here; you are distorting and attacking and attacking - like just in this exchange, describing an SPI that was solid enough to get a CU as "fatuous" or as somehow invalid, and saying that i outright called you a "moron" or "garbage".
- On top of that, you keep pushing for ... something... and lashing out, but whatever it is that you want is not happening. The only sanctions under discussion have been a one-way iban on you, and possibly a mutual one. That's it.
- As I have said before, it doesn't seem that my interacting with you is productive at all - so I will go back to trying to avoid you.
- I'll end by repeating what I wrote above; the best thing all around would just be to let his go. I do understand your original objection. Jytdog (talk) 03:32, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- I've read the SPI, and although it looks like most or all of the combatants are physically separated from one another, it also looks like there are an awful lot of people in diverse places who are looking to hound Jytdog. With respect to the ANI discussion here, it sure looks to me like an interaction ban is overdue. I'm not sure whether it should be one-way, per the subsection above, or two-way. But I think the goal here needs to be to get as much disengagement as we can. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:13, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
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- There's no need for any sort of ban on him, I just want him to stop filing fatuous SPIs against me. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:35, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- further to the pot-stirring theory, this SPI was filed claiming that Cirt and I are one person based on this thread. The filer of that is apparently watching this with some glee. Jytdog (talk) 22:13, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- About the filer of that SPI: I looked at the SPI, and there is something that I would like admins to take a second look at there. After the SPI was closed with no action (and, indeed, it is patently ridiculous), but before it was archived, another editor posted a note there, saying that the filer is a sock of another account, that has been indeffed for other instances of socking, but there is no explanation of the connection in this case. (Not related in any way to Andy, please let me make clear.) I don't know what to make of that, but given the clearly disruptive intention of the filing, it seems likely that something is going on there, and it merits a second look. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:38, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
Onthost
Per Tryptofish above (and others) I have reviewed the edit history of Onthost (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) and blocked the account as a disruptive alternate account. I think some people have suspicions as to the master account, I don't think we need to go into that because the pattern of edits after a six year break is pretty clearly not the work of an editor acting in good faith, and is quite likely someone evading a block. Guy (Help!) 09:33, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:41, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
178.217.194.100's long-term edit warring and continued addition of unsourced statistics
Last year, Jolly Janner and I repeatedly tried to explain to 178.217.194.100 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) at User talk:178.217.194.100 the need to source additions of statistics to demography articles. The editor largely ignored our advice, and engaged in edit warring. As well as adding statistics without sources, their additions are often poorly formatted, they have ignored repeated advice about the correct use of commas for thousand separators and full stops for decimal points, and the edits are likely in violation of WP:NOTSTATSBOOK. I noticed today that the editor has resumed their behaviour, restoring unsourced material that was recently removed from the Demographics of France article and re-adding statistics about England and Wales to Demography of England that were previously removed. I think that enough is enough and some action needs to be taken to stop this disruptive behaviour. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:44, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- I would like to see a block at this point. I originally had hoped the user had gone quiet, because they had decided to turn away from Wikipedia, but it's clear this user is not here to build an encyclopedia. The scale of the edits is huge (the user also edits under different IPs), which means the work require to revert them is huge. It's a shame, since the user obviously has the potential to make useful edits. In light of their inability to listen, a block is what I see as the only option. I don't ever recall seeing them make an edit that wasn't reverted? Jolly Ω Janner 07:50, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- I can almost forgive the edit warring - the IP editor clearly believes that these highly detailed statistical tables are useful additions - but they stubbornly refuse to listen to advice about correct formatting, suggesting that they are not really here to build an encyclopedia but rather to bludgeon away according to their own rules. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:03, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- My recommendation would be a fairly long block and a six-month topic ban on stats charts. Softlavender (talk) 09:40, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
- It would be great to get input and/or action from some administrators on this. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:10, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- This issue appears to still be ongoing. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:07, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: Agree with recommendation by Softlavender for a long block and topic ban on the IP user, who unfortunately seems unwilling or willfully ignoring requests to engage in further discussion about the matter. — Cirt (talk) 00:33, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
Is this still a problem? I see a comment from the IP editor acknowledging a problem with their editing and recent edits try to provide a source, although the formatting isn't ideal. Zad68
13:42, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- The IP has commented that they won't edit UK demography articles any more, but that's not really acknowledging the problem, which concerns their insistence on ignoring WP:NOTSTATSBOOK at a whole range of articles. Edits such as this suggest that they also haven't taken on board messages about the need for proper referencing, as the URL linked to is just a menu page. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:58, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- More of this today. Quite why Demographics of Algeria needs population pyramids for 2008, 2011, 2012 and 2014 is unclear. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:01, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- The IP has made lots more similar additions tonight, including reinstating that material at Demographics of Algeria after Jolly Janner reverted the additions I linked to above. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:57, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- He seems to have acquired a fetish for raw survey data used to calculate population pyramids. I suggest all of them be removed. Only the population pyramid itself would be useful in an encyclopedia. I've suggested a possible workaround to it on his talk page. In the meantime, we will have to remove all the survey data from our articles. I would still welcome a block, since we've previously advised workarounds, but the user doesn't listen. I don't hold much hope on this occasion either. Jolly Ω Janner 21:12, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Can someone please block this user soon? Another round of disruptive edits today after ignoring my alternative on their talk page. I've cleaned up some pages, but it takes a long time to revert them all. As they admitted, they are trying to add it to every country. Jolly Ω Janner 19:29, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
James J. Lambden is wikistalking me.
James J. Lambden (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) is WP:WIKISTALKing me to articles simply to WP:WIKIHOUND my work. This is because we were in a disagreement over his instance on keeping white supremacist literature as sources for white pride against consensus [173]. He has never shown any interest in exoplanets or astronomy until this point so it is clear what he is doing by !voting on deletion discussions and no others. [174], [175]
jps (talk) 05:45, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- @I9Q79oL78KiL0QTFHgyc: It's technically inaccurate to say he is stalking you "to articles", as since March 28 he has only edited two articles, Michelle Fields and Kamen Rider × Super Sentai: Super Hero Taisen, neither of which were ever edited by you (I was analyzing your claim from the top down, so this was frustrating for me when I looked at JJL's contribs and didn't see it). I think a much stronger argument, given JJL's editing history (he's hardly shown any interest in anything so far) would be the timing.
- That said, this is super-dodgy behaviour. JJL is essentially a new user (account created last April, but only started editing a month ago...), so I say block for 24 hours, with a warning that following users you disagree with is a form of WP:HARASSMENT and is not tolerated, and if it continues longer blocks will be forthcoming (2nd offense one week, 3rd offense indefinite).
- Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:03, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- You demand (you use the word "say" rather than "suggest") a block, and as reasoning link to an advice page, a page that actually gives you no support for this demanded block. The act of following users you disagree with is not a form of harassment as defined in the page you linked. "Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors ... in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work". In what way is work by jps being confronted or inhibited? In addition, in what way do any edits by James J. Lambden involve "tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior"? These things are required to be present before a block can be imposed. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:58, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry about inappropriate use of the lingo. It just feels really yucky when that happens. jps (talk) 06:05, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
And now this. jps (talk) 20:40, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
Nonsense. This is an attempt to misrepresent a content dispute. James J. Lambden (talk) 20:08, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- jps, I'd like to examine this report but it would be easier if it was clearer. Are you suggesting the IP in your last diff, 166.171.187.71 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), is James Lambden logged out? How can you tell? I fully agree it's some established user evading scrutiny in order to stalk and harass you, but why JL in particular? Any special style or contextual similarities? Bishonen | talk 15:57, 9 April 2016 (UTC).
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- I have reason to believe that there is a group of people monitoring my activities on Wikipedia and I think that the IP matches this kind of unasked-for monitoring. I have come to decide that it may be best to discuss this more off-wiki, so if you are interested in more ideas with regards to this matter, please send me an e-mail. Sorry about this. jps (talk) 07:30, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
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Note to the closing admin It may be of relevance that Jps has very recently raised a similar accusation of wiki-stalking on this noticeboard[176] which has now been closed. DrChrissy (talk) 23:36, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Panama Papers
I'm sorry if this looks like canvassing, since I left a message a few minutes ago at WP:BLP/N too. but I'd appreciate additional eyes (preferably eyes familiar with WP:BLP) at Panama Papers, in particular the list of specific people alleged to be clients. If I'm wrong, feel free to let me know. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:05, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- I think it's being handled ok, or if anything too conservatively. E.g. the name getting the most press attention is Vladimir Putin, but he's not even mentioned in the wiki article because his involvement was through an intermediary, and the intermediary isn't mentioned either, maybe because he's not a head of state (he is a cellist closely associated with Putin). 173.228.123.194 (talk) 04:47, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Suggestion: @Floquenbeam: I don't think it's canvassing, especially if it's a very short brief succinct neutrally worded notice. I'd suggest posting notices to the article talk pages of those subjects related to the issue in the article. — Cirt (talk) 00:24, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
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- The alleged Putin connection and the allegations re. his cellist friend, I'll call them the Putin issue if I may, are right now a horrible mess. There are a few editors convinced that it is all a conspiracy and wishing to delete all they can re. the Putin issue, and the result at this moment is that the allegations have disappeared and the reactions to them are still there. This is an absurdity, but it is also a product of the way in which the article is organised, as few can get a proper grasp on it all. Boscaswell talk 10:51, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
Can I please ask an admin or three to read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Panama_Papers#Complete_reorganisation_of_the_article_is_required.2C_and_soon, in which I've set out how I think the article should be reorganised and why it needs urgent action. With page views pushing 400,000 yesterday, it is a biggie. Boscaswell talk 10:51, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Same issue on Talk:Vladimir Putin#Panama papers, but it seems to be (very slowly) moving forward there.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:00, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- We are slowly moving towards large-scale edit warring in Vladimir Putin.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:34, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- With Putin saying the whole Panama Papers affair is just a conspiracy to "get him", I would think that he should be mentioned in the article. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:43, 9 April 2016 (UTC).
Accusations of misogyny
During two separate AfDs, Nfitz (talk · contribs) has accused editors of supporting an official Wikipedia notabilty guideline (WP:NFOOTY) of being misogynists.[177][178] He has been asked to withdraw the personal attack twice,[179][180] but is trying to claim that it is not one.[181] and wikilawyering to claim he has not accused any individual editor.[182]. Could this be dealt with please. Cheers, Number 57 22:08, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- This is beyond absurd. I pointed out a policy I believe to be misogynistic - that I too have been supporting in the past. I didn't make any personal attacks - especially as I included myself in the misogynistic practice we need to fix. When User:Number 57 questioned what I'd said, I clearly pointed out to him that I wasn't referring to any individual. It's a shame that some editors are far more interested in choosing to be offended and their constant wiki-lawyering and red-taping rather than improving the project. I'd like User:Number 57 to apologize for his personal attack against me. I'm sorry if User:Number 57 misinterpreted my statement. Nfitz (talk) 22:19, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- It was very clear from the original, pointed comments that the attack was aimed at certain editors. If anyone had any illusions as to the meaning, they were followed up with "I really hadn't expected anyone to support misogyny in this day and age". The attempt at backpeddalling is not going to fool anyone (I hope). As for the request for an apology... Number 57 22:24, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I most certainly did not aim the attack at certain editors. I aimed it at the entire project - myself included. To suggest otherwise is a violation of one of the fundamental pillars of Wikipedia - and User:Number 57 needs to apologize for violating WP:AGF. If they were not sure, they could have sought clarification - and I'd already clarified that I had not aimed my comment at any individuals before User:Number 57 came here; by ignoring my clarification that I had not targeted any individuals, has very clearly to violate WP:AGF. Could this be dealt with please? Nfitz (talk) 22:35, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)You clearly stated in the edits that those who defend the guidelines are misogynists. I understand that in some situations we get a little hot under the collar and sometimes speak/type without thinking things through. But yeah, you did write that. Irrespective of whether or not you actually named anyone you cast a rather unpleasant aspersion on those who disagree with your take on this guideline. At the very least that is a breach of WP:AGF. I suggest that you strike the comment and make an appropriate expression of regret over the unfortunate choice of words. Let's all try to act like adults and not drag this out unnecessarily or make more of it than is needed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:29, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
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- No, I simply meant that anyone who ignores the WP:BIAS and mysogyny issues would be misogynists. As I'd only just raised them, no one had yet defended the issues I'd raised, there could have been no individual I was referring to. I HAD already clarified that I wasn't targetting an individual with my comments - however User:Number 57 chose to ignore that, and still take offence, where none was meant. Then User:Number 57 chose to violate WP:AGF. This is a far greater transgression in my mind, and User:Number 57 needs to apologize or face the consequences. This seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill. Nfitz (talk) 22:45, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- It's a personal attack and incivil. Nfitz, Wikipedia is a tertiary source. It aggregates information from secondary and primary sources and attempts to give them due weight. If those sources are biased, Wikipedia will be as well. Similarly, if a system or institution has systemic bias in its outcomes for something like fame, Wikipedia will reflect that bias as well because notability is based on that systemically biased institution (e.g., Oscars). It's unfortunate, but that's how encyclopedias and tertiary sources like textbooks work. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:38, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
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- How can it be a personal attack, if I wasn't making a personal attack. Perhaps I worded it badly. I apologize for wording it badly. I find it quite insulting that other people are telling me what I was saying and thinking, when I clarified my comments BEFORE it came to ANI. As for Wikipedia being Tertiary - we are discussing policy here, not content. Our policy to not allow articles about female players unless their league is fully-professional, knowing full well there isn't the money in the sport to have fully-professional leagues WHEN WE DO ALLOW SEMI-PROFESSIONAL male leagues in standards for other male-dominated leagues (basketball, gridiron, ice hockey) is clear WP:BIAS. If we held the same standards for ANY league of ANY sport, then I'd agree with you. But we don't. Nfitz (talk) 22:51, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
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- (edit conflict)You clearly stated in the edits that those who defend the guidelines are misogynists. I understand that in some situations we get a little hot under the collar and sometimes speak/type without thinking things through. But yeah, you did write that. Irrespective of whether or not you actually named anyone you cast a rather unpleasant aspersion on those who disagree with your take on this guideline. At the very least that is a breach of WP:AGF. I suggest that you strike the comment and make an appropriate expression of regret over the unfortunate choice of words. Let's all try to act like adults and not drag this out unnecessarily or make more of it than is needed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:29, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- I most certainly did not aim the attack at certain editors. I aimed it at the entire project - myself included. To suggest otherwise is a violation of one of the fundamental pillars of Wikipedia - and User:Number 57 needs to apologize for violating WP:AGF. If they were not sure, they could have sought clarification - and I'd already clarified that I had not aimed my comment at any individuals before User:Number 57 came here; by ignoring my clarification that I had not targeted any individuals, has very clearly to violate WP:AGF. Could this be dealt with please? Nfitz (talk) 22:35, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
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I have struck the offending comment, despite making it very clear to User:Number 57 that they weren't aimed at anyone personally. Re-reading them again, it was poorly worded, and I apologize for that. However, as I'd made it very clear that it wasn't personal, before they decided to bring this here, clearly violating WP:AGF and I await their apology for this. Nfitz (talk) 23:04, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- This is interesting stuff. Nfitz's apology is very welcome, but their original comments--the content if not the phrasing--is even more welcome. Even The Rambling Man agreed that there was bias in our guidelines. This is an opportunity to do something useful; if any of Nfitz's words crossed the line (and I think it was very mild) I think they speak to the frustration that is frequently felt when an underrepresented group is the subject of discussion.
The bottomline is this, and Number 57 may not like it: "the guidelines is the guidelines" is not some sort of secret recipe that somehow eliminates bias. In fact, I am pretty damn sure that the guidelines are based on things that are inherently biased (media coverage, for instance; if I read my local paper and nothing but, cycling wouldn't be a sport and soccer was just for girls), like professional leagues and stuff like that (it's the "professional" part: of course women are underpaid, and this finds an expression in what's professional and what's not--just ask the US women's soccer team, with three World Cups and four Olympic titles, IIRC). Number 57 and others should seize this opportunity to investigate how our guidelines might be biased, and editors (including me) sometimes cannot see the beam in their own eyes. Drmies (talk) 00:40, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Drmies: Football is a spectator sport, and this is what makes the players notable (with the exception of international footballers, all of whom we deem notable regardless of their professional status). A league's professional status is a direct consequence of the interest in that league, and the status of some leagues as semi-professional is a result of a lack of sufficient interest in those leagues, which is an indicator that the players in those leagues are not notable. Number 57 11:40, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- I get what you're saying, but I don't think it's that simple, or that "interest" is so easily defined. I think FOOTY needs tweaking and The Rambling Man was right; the highest level in the country should trump the mere "fully professional" requirement. Your response in the Brogan Hay AfD doesn't even regard the GNG which, in my opinion and that of others, is met. (Giant Snowman disagrees, but that's another discussion.) Choosing FOOTY over GNG suggests bias, yes, if FOOTY is biased--which seems to be the opinion of a couple of participants in that AfD. But this is for a different forum than ANI, I realize that. Drmies (talk) 15:14, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Drmies: The reason we have avoided going down the top level route for notability is primarily because it would allow articles on thousands of non-notable male players playing in countries where football is not a professional sport (e.g. Ireland and other small countries in Europe). Number 57 15:28, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- While the manner in which this issue was raised was a little too gung-ho, I think what has been criticised is really worth looking into. The guideline for fully-professional leagues is helpful in most cases – however with gender as a factor it becomes a bit more difficult to apply as a general rule of interest/notability. Assigning the same criteria to both male and female players doesn’t take into account gender discrimination – as User:Drmies mentioned, women are in many cases are simply paid less; this doesn’t necessarily correlate with less interest for the sport. The pitfalls of amending notability criteria are clear, yet I think there may be ways to side-step potential problems. Perhaps for countries where there is notable football enthusiasm (where the men's league(s) are fully-professional) there could be criteria to allow for the top-tier women's league - This could aid in avoiding the problem User:Number 57 raised regarding non-notable male players. In any case, it would be good to start a constructive debate on this issue and discuss possible amendments. BoroFan89 (talk) 18:49, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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- The level of interest in the sport in terms of playing is not relevant; the level of interest in terms of it being a spectator sport (which is what makes players notable) is. What you seem to be suggesting is that Wikipedia adopts some form of positive discrimination. Number 57 19:14, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'm a bit confused by what you're saying - I never linked the level of interest with playing? I do believe that semi-pro women's football cannot be compared with semi-pro men's football - due to the reasons given above, and the notability criteria should consider this. BoroFan89 (talk) 19:36, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- The level of interest in the sport in terms of playing is not relevant; the level of interest in terms of it being a spectator sport (which is what makes players notable) is. What you seem to be suggesting is that Wikipedia adopts some form of positive discrimination. Number 57 19:14, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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- While the manner in which this issue was raised was a little too gung-ho, I think what has been criticised is really worth looking into. The guideline for fully-professional leagues is helpful in most cases – however with gender as a factor it becomes a bit more difficult to apply as a general rule of interest/notability. Assigning the same criteria to both male and female players doesn’t take into account gender discrimination – as User:Drmies mentioned, women are in many cases are simply paid less; this doesn’t necessarily correlate with less interest for the sport. The pitfalls of amending notability criteria are clear, yet I think there may be ways to side-step potential problems. Perhaps for countries where there is notable football enthusiasm (where the men's league(s) are fully-professional) there could be criteria to allow for the top-tier women's league - This could aid in avoiding the problem User:Number 57 raised regarding non-notable male players. In any case, it would be good to start a constructive debate on this issue and discuss possible amendments. BoroFan89 (talk) 18:49, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Drmies: The reason we have avoided going down the top level route for notability is primarily because it would allow articles on thousands of non-notable male players playing in countries where football is not a professional sport (e.g. Ireland and other small countries in Europe). Number 57 15:28, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- I get what you're saying, but I don't think it's that simple, or that "interest" is so easily defined. I think FOOTY needs tweaking and The Rambling Man was right; the highest level in the country should trump the mere "fully professional" requirement. Your response in the Brogan Hay AfD doesn't even regard the GNG which, in my opinion and that of others, is met. (Giant Snowman disagrees, but that's another discussion.) Choosing FOOTY over GNG suggests bias, yes, if FOOTY is biased--which seems to be the opinion of a couple of participants in that AfD. But this is for a different forum than ANI, I realize that. Drmies (talk) 15:14, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Drmies: Football is a spectator sport, and this is what makes the players notable (with the exception of international footballers, all of whom we deem notable regardless of their professional status). A league's professional status is a direct consequence of the interest in that league, and the status of some leagues as semi-professional is a result of a lack of sufficient interest in those leagues, which is an indicator that the players in those leagues are not notable. Number 57 11:40, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that this is a good opportunity to fix WP:NFOOTY to make sure it's written in a way that does not discriminate against women in football. See Wikipedia:Writing about women:
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Women comprise between 8.5 and 16.1 percent of editors on the English Wikipedia.[1] This means that most articles are written by men, as are most of the content policies, including the notability and referencing policies. Those policies in turn determine which articles about women can be hosted, and frame many of the ways in which they are written.
- LauraHale has worked hard to promote women in sport. She hasn't edited here since January, but I'm pinging her anyway in case she has thoughts about how to change the guideline. SarahSV (talk) 00:20, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
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- For ice hockey (WP:NHOCKEY), we allow "Played one or more games in an amateur league considered, through lack of a professional league, the highest level of competition extant." That's the situation with Brogan Hay. As I understand it, she's playing at the highest level at which she can play in Scotland, but there is no professional level for women there. So we ought to add that caveat to WP:NFOOTY. SarahSV (talk) 02:18, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
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- @SlimVirgin: My question would be how would this be applied across football in general? I presume you are not suggesting creating a bias towards women's articles by imposing a lower level of notability based solely on gender? Are you suggesting that NFOOTY be amended to state that all players in a given country's top league are presumed notable?
- The problem with that would be the vast number of non-notable male footballers who would suddenly fit this criterion, not to mention non-notable female footballers, all of whom play in very minor leagues which attract very little attention.
- If the desire is to see more articles on women, then I would suggest editors start on the large number of missing articles for women who have played senior international football, who pass NFOOTY as is but do currently have an article and thereby begin to solve this problem top down not bottom up. And let's not get started on the poor state of articles on women's football clubs, national teams and competitions.
- If the desire is to see more articles on women in a given league, i.e. Scotland in this instance, surely GNG is the best root to follow. Again this solves the problem from a top down pov by ensuring that articles are created on the most notable female footballers first before there is any need to alter a subject specific guideline.
- I am more than happy to get in a discussion on how to make football articles more inclusive, but I am adamant that any changes made must be applicable to all footballers, not simply female footballers and that the risk of a flood of hitherto non-notable players of either gender may suddenly appear.
- However, I would be interested to see, particularly if a wider audience beyond the usual WP:FOOTY editors can be engaged, if a consensus can be reached that players from a country's top division are deemed notable regardless of gender. That somewhat blunt approach seems to me to be the only way to resolve this issue in a way that provides clarity on notability to even the most inexperienced of editors and allows the inclusion of more articles on female footballers without creating a positive bias. Fenix down (talk) 07:43, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Hi Fenix, I'm not sure what you mean by applying any new suggestion across football in general. My suggestion is that WP:NFOOTY follow WP:NHOCKEY, and add a clause that says something like:
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- Alternatively, NFOOTY could follow WP:NRU (for Rugby Union), which cites women, and say something like:
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- "Or has played one or more games at the highest level of competition available in women's football in her country."
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- I see other sections on that page cite women; e.g. WP:NBASKETBALL (though the Women's National Basketball Association is professional); WP:NBOX (mentions women and amateur boxers); and WP:NCYCLING. It should be easy enough to add a sentence to NFOOTY that accommodates what happens in the women's game. SarahSV (talk) 00:03, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
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- @SlimVirgin: Firstly, I think it should be pointed out that we do not allow male players articles in cases where the top divisions in their countries are semi-pro or amateur and dozens of articles on such players are deleted every year without any such uproar. Secondly, what needs considering here is what makes footballers notable. Our guidelines give two methods for footballers to gain assumed notability; the first is common to most sports, i.e. representing their country (playing international football). The second is related to football's status as a spectator sport – and this is something that not all sports get, as if there is not much interest in many sport from a spectator point of view, this in turn means the players are not deemed notable. However, obviously not all footballers are notable, as not all footballers play in leagues where there is sufficient spectator interest (I myself have played in a league where we used to get 10-20 people watching our games). So, we have to determine which leagues do make their players notable by virtue of playing in them. The best indicator of whether there is interest in a league in terms of it being a spectator sport is professional status; if a league cannot attract sufficient crowds or sponsorship, then this suggests there is not that much interest in it, and subsequently, that the players are not notable. Being a top division does not automatically make a league's players notable if there is little interest in that league in the country in question, and this rule is applied equally to both men's and women's football. If we had separate rules for men's and women's football, this would effectively be positive discrimination, which I would hope we all agree that this is not what Wikipedia is for.
- Also, and I'm sure this was not your intention, citing the rugby union example is not really a good idea because I would say it is actually quite biased against women. WP:NRU allows an article on any male player to play in the world cup, but a female player has to be in a team that reaches the semi finals to qualify. Number 57 14:43, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I have been involved with Nfitz over AfD discussions on football-related articles, especially on players from Myanmar, and we were frustrated that though we knew that many of these players were playing in their country's top league, due to the lack of reliable sources (owing to simply the lack of documented media coverage of football events in Myanmar. Just google..) we were unable to prove their notability as per NFOOTY, which resulted in the deletion of some of the articles.
- Now, to my point: I think that Nfitz made an error in his original statements, which were the original subject of this discussion; what Nfitz essentially said in his original comments (which were linked by Number 57 and I'm not going to re-quote them) is basically: "If you support the policy, you are a misogynist, if you do not support the policy, you are not a misogynist". This is clearly a false dichotomy as effectively, it means that if I happen to support the policy, that makes me invariably a misogynist, and you can only be one or the other. That's not true of course, as just because I support the policy, it doesn't automatically make me a misogynist.
- I assume that because of this error, that Nfitz is seen by extension to be calling people misogynists if they happened to support the policy, but here's the thing: he is not calling anyone misogynists in particular; by Nfitz making his statement verbatim, there is an element of if - "If you support, you will be...; if you do not support, you will be...". On that note, I do not believe that Nfitz has not made any personal attack on any particular individual or groups of individuals. Granted that his comments were insensitive and logically incorrect in the sense that he was trying to make others invariably make one choice over the other (false dichotomy), but other than these, I don't see any other wrong in his comments.
- I'm not sure if it would help this discussion, but I'll state it anyway as a reminder to all of us, especially since Nfitz rightly said that we should be concerned with improving Wikipedia: Wikipedia is not censored. Oh and as a side point, I doubt Nfitz violated WP:NPOV, considering he was highlighting a fundamental flaw in policy, one which unfortunately has a gender element to it. Just stating it too, if it pops up in this discussion. Optakeover(U)(T)(C) 18:47, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Also, as yet another side point, I don't think Number 57 should be required to apologise either; to me this entire discussion has been a whole big misunderstanding of both sides since the beginning. I also want to praise Drmies for coming into this discussion with a voice of reason that spanned both sides. Optakeover(U)(T)(C) 19:15, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: I wouldn't go so far as to say misogyny. But there definitely seems to be a double standard against women going on in this case study, unfortunately. That represents our Wikipedia community quite poorly to our readers. — Cirt (talk) 19:17, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- A point on the substantive issue of non-professional top national leagues. I have not been completely happy with this, in a number of cases players who have played for a large country in major sports, in a major international competition, have had their articles deleted. In these cases, if GNG is not met, a redirect to a team page, with sections on each player, would be worthwhile. There are cases where player redirects have been deleted because the player no longer plays for the team. What we have is a combination of systemic bias and recentism. Clearly there is a basis for saying that professional leagues are more notable, that players representing larger (and hence better funded) nations are likley to be more notable, and that more recent players, especially current players are going to be easier to reference.
- But that doesn't mean we should abnegate all coverage, bearing in mind the difficulty of finding sources, we should build what significant coverage we can using reliable sources to populate team pages, and where necessary <sport> in <country> pages.
- All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 14:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC).
- Still waiting for an apology from User:Number 57 for their clear violation of WP:AGF. Nfitz (talk) 14:48, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- I honestly don't get what you mean by violation of AGF. If you could quote an example that is not already in this ANI discussion, I would love to see it. Otherwise, seriously there is no need for an apology to you or to Number 57. As per the second part of my original reply above, this discussion was clearly the result of bad misunderstanding, and (fairly) hot heads on both sides. He thought you were calling others misogynist, and you have acknowledged that you could have worded it better. It was clearly a misunderstanding/miscommunication. Can our feelings not be so easily crushed by others? I think we should just dust ourselves off and move on from this ANI discussion that has clearly been a few days in and doesn't seem to be heading anywhere. What should really be done is to focus on the issues with WP:GNG, WP:NFOOTY, and/or other article-related policies or guidelines, as highlighted by yourself (Nfitz) and other users. Optakeover(U)(T)(C) 17:13, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Dicklyon and his treatment on commas before Jr/Sr
If this is disruptive or editing against consensus then this might be worth AE as there are discretionary sanctions in place, but evidence of disruption rather than disagreement is necessary. Spartaz Humbug! 06:49, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Dicklyon has removed commas from titles without consensus case-by-case, like Andrew L. Lewis, Jr. Also, he misinterprets WP:JR as a no-comma rule for Jr./Sr. I don't think WP:3RRN would help much. Also, he posted a message and accused me of being disruptive. I can't handle his antics anymore. Time for administrative action. --George Ho (talk) 05:05, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- "Antics"? There has been broad support for WP:JR since the recent RFC. If you believe that Andrew L. Lewis, Jr. calls for a comma, please just say why. What have I done to stress you out so? Dicklyon (talk) 05:12, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- The discussion was about MOS and usage of content in text. It may not have extended to article titles. Also, I did not know about the RfC, and I was not told about it. --George Ho (talk) 05:22, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Also, look at the edits, especially on Cuba Gooding, Jr. How is the rule extended to article titles is beyond me. --George Ho (talk) 05:26, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- If, as you claim, WP:JR does not apply to article titles, how do you explain the fact that Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies specifically mentions how to handle article titles in four places? --Guy Macon (talk) 06:07, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- George, in reading Dicklyon's linked note to you, I rather think it's you who's been disruptive. Tony (talk) 05:21, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- @George Ho: Will you accept this WP:TROUT that's on offer and allow this thread to be closed so you can all go back to discussing this content dispute in the appropriate venue? Or does this call for a WP:BOOMERANG? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:24, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
WP:JR prefers but doesn't mandate the removal of commas. Strictly speaking, the page moves are unnecessary. This isyet another instance of wishy-washy language in the MOS causing grief. It should be consistent one way or the other and hopefully the aforementioned discussion on WT:MOSBIO provides a clear way forward. clpo13(talk) 06:29, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with you 100%, but ANI is not the place to discuss that. ANI is where we discuss blocks and bans of disruptive users. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:38, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- How is Dicklyon not a disruptive type? George Ho (talk) 06:45, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Especially when he removes the comma during the RM? George Ho (talk) 06:47, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- The only RM I can see is one you opened, to an undetermined future title. If you don't know what the title should be, you can't criticize other users for presenting there proposals and being WP:BOLD. Also, I had no idea there was an RM open because you never mentioned it. Now do you want that trout or not? I strongly urge you to accept the former... Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:19, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- What about this RM? And past requests and one of my reverts, whilst RM discussion at Talk:Martin Luther King, Sr. was ongoing? George Ho (talk) 07:30, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Also, I notice that the comma was removed from "Robert Downey, Jr." when the RM four years ago said to retain the comma and no further discussions were made in the talk page. George Ho (talk) 07:36, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- None of those RMs are currently open, and two are over a year old! Are you saying User:Philg88 should be blocked for something he did more than a year ago? You appear to be saying that you want to have a general discussion of our style guidelines on ANI? Or are you blaming Dicklyon for a whole bunch of stuff they had nothing to do with? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:45, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- What? No, I'm not pinning on Phil. It's Dicklyon's disregard for case-by-case strategy and generalization on other things. If you think I'm out of control, be my guest. And how dare you propose a block on me after I tried to address a user conduct. Giving me a "boomerang", which I don't know what it means until you try to propose a block on me. --George Ho (talk) 09:00, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- If you want my propose on Dicklyon, maybe an admonishment perhaps? If that's not enough, how about warning? Or encourage Dicklyon to propose instead of boldly moving on all commas? George Ho (talk) 09:02, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- You've been editing Wikipedia for a decade and you don't know how ANI works? Maybe you shouldn't have come here, then. I offered you the easy way out of being hit with a trout and closing this thread, and you refused. Twice. I explicitly told you you would be hit with a boomerang if you persisted, and I linked to the page for you to read it. The potentially-disruptive unilateral move in the middle of an RM from over a year ago to which you referred above was made by Philg88 and had nothing to do with Dicklyon as far as I can see. I don't think either should face sanctions for what looks like a good faith misunderstanding from over a year ago. You, on the other hand, appear to be deliberately forum-shopping your content dispute to ANI, and trying to antagonize anyone who calls you out on it. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:12, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
If I'm too late to let you close the thread, that's fine by me. If you want to close it, go ahead. But I'll be back if the empire strikes back. I swear to you. --George Ho (talk) 09:16, 4 April 2016 (UTC)Rescinding my latest comment due to unanimous opposition below. If it's not too late, close it if you want. Otherwise, let's hear admins' comments then. --George Ho (talk) 18:48, 4 April 2016 (UTC)- You know what? If you believe that this ANI is in bad faith, propose an admonishment or a warning on me if you can. --George Ho (talk) 20:45, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Are you trying to be antagonistic? I withdrew my boomerang proposal seven hours before you posted the above, and had refrained from further comment in this thread. The "unanimous opposition" was entirely based on philosophical differences over what constitutes a "preventative" block, and I had better things to do with my time than comb through your edit history to see if you abusing ANI was already a recurring problem. Everyone was and still is in agreement that you are being disruptive and are misusing ANI. The "unanimous opposition" was also unanimous that you should be hit with some sort of boomerang or at least a trout. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:00, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- If no one is behind me, then... please don't trout me. I don't like being trout-ed. I was trouted once; twice is too much. I don't know if I want to back off or make the thread active. I hate that I'm the enemy here; I don't want to be "antagonistic". If I allow bold removals of commas, then what are we going to do with academics outside Wikipedia who still encourage commas before Sr./Jr.? Also, what about academics encouraging the periods after Jr/Sr? --George Ho (talk) 03:28, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Are you trying to be antagonistic? I withdrew my boomerang proposal seven hours before you posted the above, and had refrained from further comment in this thread. The "unanimous opposition" was entirely based on philosophical differences over what constitutes a "preventative" block, and I had better things to do with my time than comb through your edit history to see if you abusing ANI was already a recurring problem. Everyone was and still is in agreement that you are being disruptive and are misusing ANI. The "unanimous opposition" was also unanimous that you should be hit with some sort of boomerang or at least a trout. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:00, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- You've been editing Wikipedia for a decade and you don't know how ANI works? Maybe you shouldn't have come here, then. I offered you the easy way out of being hit with a trout and closing this thread, and you refused. Twice. I explicitly told you you would be hit with a boomerang if you persisted, and I linked to the page for you to read it. The potentially-disruptive unilateral move in the middle of an RM from over a year ago to which you referred above was made by Philg88 and had nothing to do with Dicklyon as far as I can see. I don't think either should face sanctions for what looks like a good faith misunderstanding from over a year ago. You, on the other hand, appear to be deliberately forum-shopping your content dispute to ANI, and trying to antagonize anyone who calls you out on it. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:12, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- None of those RMs are currently open, and two are over a year old! Are you saying User:Philg88 should be blocked for something he did more than a year ago? You appear to be saying that you want to have a general discussion of our style guidelines on ANI? Or are you blaming Dicklyon for a whole bunch of stuff they had nothing to do with? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:45, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- The only RM I can see is one you opened, to an undetermined future title. If you don't know what the title should be, you can't criticize other users for presenting there proposals and being WP:BOLD. Also, I had no idea there was an RM open because you never mentioned it. Now do you want that trout or not? I strongly urge you to accept the former... Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:19, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- I think
a WP:BOOMERANGan ANI-misuse admin warning of some kind (not a block, per below discussion) is in order, perhaps a short-term topic ban. Ho may well have been unaware of the RfC but that doesn't mitigate anything, including his vague aspersion-casting that Lyon is "a disruptive type", etc. It's totally inappropriate to drag someone to WP:ANI for alleged linguistic battlegrounding (actually, routine cleanup) when one's own intent is in fact to perpetuate linguistic battlegrounding. It's vexatious, litigious, unclean-hands, and a misuse of ANI to try to WP:WIN a content dispute. Lyon using normal WP:RM processes – slow or speedy – to comply with guideline wording, in an evidence-backed manner, is not problematic. What is problematic is the never-give-up attitude of a couple of editors who are big fans of this comma despite all evidence that usage has shifted over the last two decades (across all dialects and registers) and who go from RM to RM opposing its removal, recycling, in WP:NOTGETTINGIT style, the same bogus arguments in every case no matter how many times they are refuted. This is tendentious activity and needs to stop.George Ho in particular has been remarkably WP:DEADHORSE, at both RM discussions and MoS talk pages, about a number of linguistic matters he simply does not understand and refuses to believe enormous piles of evidence about, like the difference between "as" or "like" when used as a preposition versus as a conjunction. It took me many hours of sourcing to get him to even back slightly away from that carcass (thought fortunately the work can be used to improve some articles on English usage).
PS: comments like "WP:JR prefers but doesn't mandate the removal of commas" are meaningless; all of MOS and our naming conventions pages are just guidelines and do not "mandate" anything. We comply with them as guidelines absent a compelling reason not to in a particular case. And, yes, this is not the place to try to make one.
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:47, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
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- @SMcCandlish: Which is part of the problem. So long as MOS pages remain "just guidelines", we end up with pointless arguments like this. The wording should be stronger. And next time, would you be so kind as to ping me when you talk about me? clpo13(talk) 05:26, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed. George Ho's above ex post facto comments on my failed boomerang proposal indicate that he just doesn't get it -- he seems to actually think a lot of users came to his defense in the belief that this discussion does belong on ANI and I was totally wrong on the substance. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:00, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, the objections were to using a block punitively rather than preventatively, i.e. they were procedural not content- or behavior-related objections. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:35, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Bogus? SMcCandlish, my arguments aren't bogus. Give one example that my arguments are bogus. --George Ho (talk) 03:28, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- You're just proving Hijiri88's point. This is not the forum for an argument about grammar/style and the bogosity of your beliefs about that topic. And "Give one example that my arguments are bogus" doesn't even parse as a proper sentence, which rather proves the other point. So does the whole square mile of sources I dumped on the like/as matter at WT:MOSCAPS, now in Archive 21, at multiple RMs, and developed in hairy detail at User:SMcCandlish/sourcing/Capitalization in English. Anyone who cares about the actual content dispute will find everything they could want in there. Be careful what you wish for.) — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:35, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'm rescinding my t-ban suggestion. In re-reviewing Ho's involvement in these topics, while there is a level of tendentiousness, he's actually usually more civil than the "style warriors" we keep having to deal with periodically. This seems to have been a momentary lapse. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 12:26, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: After reading, above, I have to say I agree with the comment in this sect by Tony1 (talk · contribs). I'd encourage the filer of this ANI thread to familiarize themselves with RFC reflecting community consensus, existing site policy, and then discuss in a civil manner on relevant article talk pages about the issue, keeping in mind pages already cited to him, above. — Cirt (talk) 00:19, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
WP:BOOMERANG for George Ho - block for 24 hours
Withdrawn by requestor |
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- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Continuous disruptive editing by Shhhhwwww!! even after third block
I'm here to file a case on User:Shhhhwwww!!, this user has make a persistent disruptive editing since his recent release of block in early April. Since 2013, this user was detected making nonsense contribution like [183], [184], [185], [186], [187], [188] and making disruptive page moves without any discussion first which resulted he was blocked for third time (see his block log). The user also makes content removal without starting a discussion first/reaching a consensus like this, this and labelling anyone who revert his edits as breaching the WP:3RR while still not reaching it as can be seen on here and here. Recently, when he get his third block was expired, he continue to invade Sabah article by starting a discussion with a title "Sabah is racist" [189] and adding the article as part of WikiProject Philippines while it is not a Philippine territory [190], [191]. The same goes to Miangas article [192], [193] which is an Indonesian territory. The user have been warned for his disruptive editing who frequently makes flooding request for comment [194] thus controversially removing his comment from the Miangas talkpage which affecting the recent discussion there [195]. The same can be seen on here and here although the discussion can be discussed in one place without flooding every related topics. The user tactics also usually will retired when someone launched an investigation into his behaviour such as can be seen on this, this, this and this and remove it back when the investigation is over. He also restoring other user comment who have rectract his word [196]. As been reported by other users (which can be seen on here (Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Shhhhwwww!!/Archive#14 October 2015). When another user User:HistoriaFilipinas create the North Borneo, Philippines article, he re-create it by stating an edit summary (to prevent re-creation). This is quite amusing. Someone should take an action to this user which day by day getting worse even after had been blocked and repeatedly warned as seen on his talkpage. I have filed this case on administrator intervention against vandalism and they told me to report it here. Thank you. Molecule Extraction (talk) 07:41, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Shhhhwwww!! (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) and Molecule Extraction (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) are two POV warriors who fight on various pages, so this is a content dispute between two editors who both are prone to violating policy. I warned them both this morning. I did not warn Molecule Extraction about WP:FORUMSHOPPING but please regard this as such a warning. Stop disrupting and start discussing this in a constructive manner. And that goes for both of you. --OpenFuture (talk) 07:50, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'm understand and accept your warning. I'm here to just reporting the behaviour of Shhhhwwww!! since 2013 as had been reported by other previous users (senior) than me so any administrators can take a look on this long-term issues. I'm ready to take up any responsibility and mistake If I had done to this projects especially when I had make a talkpage war or edit war with the user. But the only thing I hope is there should be any final decision on this. Molecule Extraction (talk) 07:55, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Worry about yourself instead of Shhhhwwww!! --OpenFuture (talk) 08:05, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Molecule Extraction, you also failed to alert Shhhhwwww!! that you have reported him; so he probably does not even know that he is being discussed. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 10:42, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi: Thanks for putting it. I forgot. Molecule Extraction (talk) 11:00, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- I've tried to be patient with this user and discuss the issues in a more mature manner but the constant Wikihounding, Harrassment, and Personal attacks just get to the nerves. Sometimes enough is enough. Harkening back to edits made three years ago, threats of blocking, overusing arguments are just bad faith. I tried to have a truce to no avail. I tried responding with one-word responses, the attacks continued. I have already backed away when OpenFuture told us to stop. This is unfair. I have already been harrassed a day ago with reporting to the vandalism noticeboard and I was cleared thrice. I am really unhappy right now.Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 13:21, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- You have indeed tried everything, except following the WP:Five pillars. You have created a whole host of frivolous RfC's you have even made a completely frivolous arbitration request, you have thrown out endless personal attacks, you have editwarred, etc. Don't try to make yourself out to be a victim. Neither of you are victims, the only victim is Wikipedia. --OpenFuture (talk) 19:13, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Molecule Extraction, you also failed to alert Shhhhwwww!! that you have reported him; so he probably does not even know that he is being discussed. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 10:42, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Worry about yourself instead of Shhhhwwww!! --OpenFuture (talk) 08:05, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'm understand and accept your warning. I'm here to just reporting the behaviour of Shhhhwwww!! since 2013 as had been reported by other previous users (senior) than me so any administrators can take a look on this long-term issues. I'm ready to take up any responsibility and mistake If I had done to this projects especially when I had make a talkpage war or edit war with the user. But the only thing I hope is there should be any final decision on this. Molecule Extraction (talk) 07:55, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Didn't this user retire after the last time they were being disruptive? Now looking to escape a long block by going on vacation. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me 50 times... Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 18:30, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Timing is so often the most important element of a holiday Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 19:15, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- I am willing to have a more meanigful discussion with this user and avoid any disruptive editing. I will still be on Wikibreak for a while to cool my head and calm my nerves. I am also going to try to avoid these topics in the near future. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 21:33, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
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- 'I am willing to have a more meaningful discussion with this user and avoid any disruptive editing'. Hah, the tactics always like that by claiming himself as 'innocence' and then "retire" before being blocked. After your recent block, you however continue to remove a template from the Jamalul Kiram III before starting any discussion and reaching a consensus [197]. I have asking him repeatedly to give a WP:RS from the PH government (be it from PDF documents or from the government press release agencies [198], [199]) that recognise Kiram III or Ismael Kiram II and Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram as the official Sultan for the so-called Sultanate of Sulu (that been recognise until this day by his country peoples) but instead he gave me a link to a newspaper of Philippines Vice-President Jejomar Binay claim to Sabah as can be seen on our discussion in Jamalul Kiram III talkpage. Then on the Sabah article, Shhhhwwww!! keep stressing that WikiProject Philippines must be included [200], [201] on the article talkpage although OpenFuture has told to stop and giving a suggestion to maintain a balance views on the article content. Is that you called 'to avoid disruptive editing'?? An experience Filipino editor RioHondo also has said that there is no need for a WikiProject Philippines to be included on a article that even are not under the jurisdiction of the Philippines. The disruption was also seen on a Indonesian island article, the Miangas talkpage [202], [203]. Clearly that there is some "irredentism" feeling here. While at the same time, you have controversially removing the question header which have affecting the discussion [204]. Is that are not disruptive? You also said 'I am also going to try to avoid these topics in the near future'. I have asking you here if your really want to change your behaviour but instead you leave my question unanswered. Is that how we can trust you easily, after repeated warnings and block but still back to old behaviour?? Molecule Extraction (talk) 02:47, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Timing is so often the most important element of a holiday Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 19:15, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- What a mess This thread was opened about twenty hours ago by Molecule Extraction, and has received 12 independent comments including ME's OP comment, but somehow has been edited 48 times!? This is some Special:Contributions/LittleBenW shit, and almost all of it appears to be the fault of the OP. On top of that, he/she seems to be under the impression that Shhhhwwww having a block log means all disruptive editing must be the latter's fault, but all of Shhhhwwww's blocks appear to be about a string of unilateral page moves, and my (admittedly brief) examination of their contribs didn't indicate any continuation of this particular activity following the most recent block. While I don't doubt that both editors are being disruptive, I don't think Shhhhwwww should be blocked again if Molecule Extraction comes out of this unscathed, as Molecule Extraction appears to me to be engaging in disruption on this very forum. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:45, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Just noticed this (sorry -- wasn't reading very closely). Block Shhhhwwww for three months and see if he comes back and causes still more trouble. Molecule Extraction has a clean block record, so one week should be enough to warn them that this isn't appropriate behaviour. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:52, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- I think a week is a bit on the heavy side for Molecule Extraction. I've been looking at the articles to see who added all the shit I now have to clean away, and it wasn't him. He just escalated the conflict instead of handling it. --OpenFuture (talk) 19:40, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
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- User:Muffin Wizard and User:Molecule Extraction have identical edit patterns. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 00:28, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oh, and now you are accusing me to be a sockpuppet. What a lame excuse. Molecule Extraction (talk) 03:57, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Creepy canvassing right here. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 05:58, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- User:Muffin Wizard and User:Molecule Extraction have identical edit patterns. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 00:28, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I think a week is a bit on the heavy side for Molecule Extraction. I've been looking at the articles to see who added all the shit I now have to clean away, and it wasn't him. He just escalated the conflict instead of handling it. --OpenFuture (talk) 19:40, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
Charlene McMann
A person purported to be Ms. McMann left a lengthy message on my talk page. She took issue with a citation I added yesterday, and upon investigating further, I agree with her contention and removed the citation. However, she is also making legal threats against me and Wikipedia. This was the same tactic used in March in an attempt to remove the article from Wikipedia because she felt the conviction was unfair, despite pleading guilty to it. To the extent that herself and others who have engaged in sock to remove the article, or blanking on the citation, I seek administrator guidance on this matter.--Cahk (talk) 19:19, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- In the meanwhile, I blocked the Ip for 1 year for legal threats.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:45, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
Proposal for a Ban
The human behind this IP, who seems to be Charlene McMann, has been causing so much disruption about the article on that person, and is now trying to exercise a chilling effect, that I recommend a Site Ban on a person who is not a registered user, but is the person behind the IP, so that IP should be indefinitely blocked. (The IP appears to be static over at least six weeks, which is longer than most.) I realize that others will disagree with a formal ban for a person who is editing via IPs, but this is my opinion. I suggest that editors who disagree recommend an indef or a long block, or to disagree. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:35, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support as proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:35, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support Evidence suggests they'll just come back with a new IP and do the same again. So only option is to siteban them. Joseph2302 (talk) 20:34, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support, along with her husband and his sock drawer. I have nominated the article for AfD - though refactoring as an article about the defunct charity she scammed might be better. Guy (Help!) 22:14, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support - They'd only be back under a new one and then a new one etc etc so ban the lot of 'em, Maybe the article should be kept so we can show the encyclopedia how pathetic and sad some people are. –Davey2010Talk 22:36, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support, and I think if we end up blocking them past this point to both leave a message to only contact Foundation council and let the Foundation know. Censorious thuggery tends to stand mute in the midst of lawyering up; it's the same principle patent trolling works on. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 22:37, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support. I am okay if the community consensus is to remove the article. However, it is clear either the subject, or someone related to the subject is actively attempting to damage control stemming from the court processes. As noted in the 2nd AfD process and the comments here - it appears someone related to the subject created the article in the first place to promote her work, and now that negative information is out, they want the article taken down. The only (more neutral) solution appears to be a ban.--Cahk (talk) 23:50, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Strong support Per Joseph2302 Jdcomix (talk) 02:41, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Strong support I created the 2nd AFD on the article, namely on the fact that I felt that the subject was not notable enough for inclusion, and agree with Guy that the information on the page could be turned into a page about the charity. The constant legal threats and attempted Wiki-lawyering is enough for me to support a ban on the IP and its socks (including the subject's husband). RickinBaltimore (talk) 12:06, 6 April 2016 (UTC) Update Upon seeing this: [205], this only furthers my support for a ban. RickinBaltimore (talk) 12:59, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support As only indication from this we have is that the person has no interest in anything but threatening the project and its editors. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 14:25, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support - the IP did not make a legal threat, IPs are just numbers. The person behind the IP made the threat, and that person is de facto banned anyway. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:47, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support I don't often vote for such comprehensive bans but this is not your typical case of a wayward editor. McMann contributed to her own biographical article but once documented information about a criminal conviction was included in the article, one that she pleaded guilty to, she wanted the article removed. She even claimed to be a friend of McMann who said the article was causing her friend to become suicidal and initially a lot of editors were extremely sympathetic until they realized it was likely McMann herself who was posting. Now, with the threats, I agree that she should be kept from editing on the project. Whether or not the article is kept or rewritten is another matter but McMann should not be threatening or trying to make editors feel guilt that they are responsible if her health worsens. Liz Read! Talk! 22:26, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
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- For those who are not familiar with incidents in March, I'll link Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mariasfixing/Archive for further reading. Liz Read! Talk! 22:54, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support for the reasons stated. User seems to be willing to keep coming back until they get what they want, which is disruptive. 331dot (talk) 08:38, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- 'Support per Liz. This is a SNOW and is just awaiting closing and enactment. Jytdog (talk) 19:33, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support for all the above reasons. It is most unfortunate that Ms. McMann chose to commit a series of felonious actions which have been more than satisfactorily cited in the media IMO. The first AfD way back when ought to have ended it. I would think the subject cannot be less notable since her arrest, conviction and sentencing. (EDIT) Predictably, a new sockpuppet appears to have surfaced as well. See here Time to close this I believe. Regards, Aloha27 talk 00:54, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I just noticed it myself. Not good. So why is McCann still being allowed to edit? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:13, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Mindimoo just shot herself in the foot and is now confirmed to be a sockpuppet. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:38, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Delete her article: Far from the first time someone begged and sweat and scraped to get a wikipedia article, and then when the only possibility of notability comes from a criminal conviction, they want it deleted. The sad story of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Howard Press (3rd nomination) has happened again. It should be deleted anyway.--Milowent • hasspoken 21:03, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support per Robert McClenon and Liz. The legal threats and sock puppetry far outweighs any positive contributions the user has made. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 15:38, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support per Liz, joining the dogpile. My own input will make no difference, but I have no tolerance for those attempting to use chilling effects and editor-shaming to whitewash an article for personal gain. I mean, take a look at this wall of text, for example. GABHello! 18:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: I've left a message on my talk page for Ms. Mcmann.--Cahk (talk) 19:45, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Ownership of Mann Mayal
Greetings
I have a problem regarding Nauriya. The user doesn't lets me edit the article Mann Mayal which he has created. Initially I ignored this but later when I edited the article again he reverted my edits again. I restored my edits and asked him to do a discussion on the talk page and he started a conversation but after putting the message on talk page he reverted my edit again. As I said, I requested the user to stop but he didn't. The user added a genre 'serial drama' to this television article and I can't understand which type of genre is it. I wanted to remove it but the creator Nauriya is against me. My many other edits that were not Vandalism were also removed from the article by the creator of the article. Now this is ownership of article.--Musa Talk 17:02, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- While Nauriya is a major editor of that article, they are not reverting everyone's contributions. I encourage you to participate in the discussion they started at Talk:Mann Mayal. Discussing a difference of opinion to come to some agreement or understanding is preferable to a block and should happen before a complaint is filed at ANI. You also haven't presented much evidence to support your request. Liz Read! Talk! 21:50, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Liz: I'm here because of unacceptable behaviour of the user. Currently there are three genres in Mann Mayal, 'Romance', 'Serial Drama' and 'Family Drama'. Now which kind of genre is 'Serial Drama'? There is no source which says that 'Serial Drama' is genre of this show. I changed it to romance-drama but the user removed it. And the genre 'Family Drama' should be written as 'Family'. But according to the creator Serial Drama, Family Drama and Romance are correct genres. Why DRAMA is written twice? The article contains wrong content which should be removed. I removed it and asked the user to refrain from reverting my edits (See talk pages) and start a discussion. He started a discussion but removed my edits again and said don't revert until issue is resolved which I told him first. Please remove the wrong content from the article. And I also made some changes in the style of Mann Mayal but that changes were also removed because they were unconstructive. I just changed the style the content was written by the user itself. This is disruptive behaviour.--Musa Talk 14:43, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Musa, did you read what I wrote? Decisions about the content of articles is not determined at ANI. Unless it turns into edit-warring or considered stalking behavior, reverting another editor's edit is not considered disruptive behavior, it is part of the BRD process. You two should discuss your difference of opinion and I advised you to join the discussion at Talk:Mann Mayal. If you two can not come to an agreement there, the next step is Dispute resolution. Liz Read! Talk! 21:50, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
Removal of comments
Hi, I want to remove my comments from the talk pages ( History of Islam, History of Iran, Achaemenid empire, Sasanian Empire, Parthian empire). Because my English is not very good, and I have made many mistakes in the earlier times. I am going to retire from Wikipedia once and for all. Can you allow me to do this? Please come to my talk page. Arman ad60 (talk) 19:00, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Seems like you're removing a lot more than just your comments. Generally you aren't allowed to just delete entire threads containing other editor's responses. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 17:21, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Yeah. It looks like the archival setup is broken on those three talk pages. I fixed Talk:History of Islam... I think. Someone might want to look at the other ones. It looks like the threads this editor is concerned about should be archived anyway. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 17:44, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
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Well I want to remove all my comments from the talk pages. My comments are not very necessary for the articles. My maps are not going to be accepted in the articles. If I remove the comments from the talk pages will it really do any harm to the articles? I am going to retire from Wikipedia. Let me retire with all the comments. Please consider this thing a bit.Arman ad60 (talk) 19:00, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- If we just removed your comments, then people's responses don't make sense. It would only make sense if you removed everything, which isn't normally allowed. If there were some compelling reason other than your belief they don't add much and desire to quit Wikipedia, then that might be something different. It is considered helpful to keep old discussions, even of ideas that are rejected, so people who come later with the same idea can know it has been proposed before, and the likely arguments they will face. As I said, our usual rule is to keep these old discussions unless there's some particular reason to remove them. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 19:14, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- It's stil happening. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 21:17, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Arman ad60: Please stop deleting discussions from talk pages. If you continue to refactor or remove other editors' talk page comments you may be blocked from editing. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 06:41, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- It's stil happening. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 21:17, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- He's doing it again: See these edits. One edit did alter someone else's comment, but that wasn't what bothered me so much. What bugs me is he's changing a lot of the wording of his own comments, which were in perfectly acceptable English to begin with, in ways that I can't be sure it alters the substance of the comment... where other editors have already responded. I reverted the three edits. I'm not sure what's going on here, Arman ad60, but I strongly advise you to stop. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 11:18, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Block needed: He just removed more talk page comments, including posts by others, that comprised a portion of a talk page thread. And here too. This and the diffs I linked above make
twicethree times since he received a final warning that he's fooled around with talk page comments. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 14:43, 7 April 2016 (UTC)- He's still making substantive changes to his talk page comments, despite being pointed to WP:REDACT. Some admin intervention would be helpful here. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 18:57, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Block needed: He just removed more talk page comments, including posts by others, that comprised a portion of a talk page thread. And here too. This and the diffs I linked above make
No you are not right. I am just trying to improve my English. I have changed just few sentences. And it hasn't changed the meaning of the comments. I have every right to do so. Can't I even correct my English?Arman ad60 (talk) 19:44, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Now at SPI: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Arman ad60. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 11:16, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Dicklyon and his disruptive "war on commas"
This isn't going anywhere at ANI. This might be a suitable case for AE as there are discretionary sanctions but you would need to demonstrate disruption and editing against consensus. Spartaz Humbug! 06:47, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Dicklyon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
There are way to many diffs to list for this, but any admin or editor can easily look at;
- his recent contribution history, re: moves (speaks for itself),
- the multiple complaints on his talk page about this same issue, (here, here and here)
- the previous (and recent) report posted here at ANI (again same issue),
- his changes to MOS:BLP,
- his previous ban on page moves (something about a "war on dashes"?) and,
- his more recent acceptance of a standard offer at AN.
- There was a debate over this at Talk:USS Frank E. Petersen Jr., which went no where,
- there was an RfC on this at the Village Pump that Drmies closed as "no consensus" and,
- there is another RfC, taking place at MOS:BLP with no consensus as of yet, just a lot of arguing.
I'm asking that Dicklyon stop (or be stopped from) moving pages to remove, every, single, comma, he finds until the there is a consensus to support this project wide and changes are made to WP:MOS (lead) and WP:JR. Thank you - theWOLFchild 17:54, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- NOTE Filer is canvassing via ANI notices at the talk pages of various editors here, here, and here. None of the editors he contacted are mentioned in the report above. Looks like a policy-vio to me. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:36, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
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- "Note" You obviously didn't read the ANI. Once you realize you're wrong, feel free to strike your accusation. - theWOLFchild 19:29, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- There is no need for him to mention me; I previously filed a complaint at #Dicklyon and his treatment on commas before Jr/Sr. Somehow, a recent RfC discussion is used as justification for omitting commas. George Ho (talk) 19:00, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Precisely why Wolfchild's action is canvassing. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 19:02, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- It's not canvassing, so give it a rest already. Feel free to address the actual issue. - theWOLFchild 19:29, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Precisely why Wolfchild's action is canvassing. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 19:02, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not so sure it's canvassing given there's an open thread on the same subject on this same page. If there's a concern, just turn this into a subsection above. I don't think neutral ANI notices are normally considered canvassing, though sending them to a bunch of otherwise unaffected people is unusual to say the least. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 19:17, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- No wonder these ANIs turn into such train wrecks. 3 replies and not one addressing the actual issue... - theWOLFchild 19:29, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- WP:JR. There, I addressed the "actual issue". Again. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:34, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Can you add a link? Thanks - theWOLFchild 21:46, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- WP:JR. There, I addressed the "actual issue". Again. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:34, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- No wonder these ANIs turn into such train wrecks. 3 replies and not one addressing the actual issue... - theWOLFchild 19:29, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Canvassing applies to the act of drawing in uninvolved editors to a discussion in an inappropriate manner. If you notice, the editors notified were actually involved in similar disputes with Dicklyon, all of which were linked to above in the ANI heading. As a result of linking to those discussions, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that TheWolfChild felt compelled to notify the editors involved at those links. Tying this to a behavioral guideline violation seems a bit premature. --GoneIn60 (talk) 21:53, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- From an uninvolved editor, WP:JR seems to indicate that there is consensus for the moves. ansh666 22:19, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Per WP:JR;
- Editors may use or omit a comma before Jr. or Sr. (Sammy Davis Jr.; Martin Luther King, Sr.) so long as each article is internally consistent. - This is before Dicklyon and Co. started mucking around with it to taylor it to their personal preferences.
- Now it reads; Omission of the comma before Jr./Jr/Jnr or Sr./Sr/Snr is preferred. The comma can be used where a living subject's own preference or its use in current sources is clear and consistent. Articles should be internally consistent in either use or omission of the commas.
- That's after this edit, with the edit summary "per RfC closure". However, the RfC (as noted above) was closed as "no consensus", with Drmies saying "MOS should express a preference toward not using commas. Grandfathering older articles, FAs, etc., is recommended, and one should remember that the MOS is a guideline, not a policy".
- No where do I see a policy or a widespread consensus that says; "Go ahead Dicklyon, pretend your the wiki-terminator, a remorseless comma-killing machine from the future, here to edit-war, page-move-war and generally disrupt the project in fulfillment of your mission - to stamp out disease-spreading commas everywhere."
- Again, I'm, asking that the page-moves and mass-removal of commas stops until a clear consensus is achieved and the guidelines are re-written to clearly reflect that consensus. - theWOLFchild 00:01, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the matter has limited to just an issue for American English. Other regional English varieties have decided to scrap the comma out worldwide. Comma before Jr. or Sr. is now an American matter, not global. Still, we have to resort to recent sources using or omitting a comma. --George Ho (talk) 00:11, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
Administrators or editors condone Dicklyon's actions and condemn me apparently. In other words, administrators won't do much about actions of editors who keep removing commas. George Ho (talk) 00:13, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- You can't paint all admins with the same brush, there are a few good ones here that take their responsibilities seriously. With that said, I would still like to see a clear consensus, and clear guideline on this. Until then, neither admins nor editors should be "condoning" Dicklyon's actions, or anyone else's for that matter, that disrupt the project for their own personal preferences. - theWOLFchild 01:37, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
The dispute is not whether the parenthetical comma has been dropped from English. (George Ho is incorrect in saying that we don't use it in other forms of English; we do, even though we do generally omit commas.) It is over whether you can change the MOS and then force all the articles to be changed to conform. This is what caused the push back from the content creators and article maintainers. As Drmies said, the MOS is supposed to be an advisory guideline to help writing articles, not to make it much harder to do so. Only FAs have a requirement to conform to the MOS, and there is no consensus that even they need to be constantly changed to conform to the latest version of the MOS. Moving the articles creates a great deal of disruption and additional work, as it break links to the reviews and causes trouble for the bots. I feel that if I can write whole articles in American English, then other people can live with the occasional comma or hyphen that offends their sensibilities. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:37, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Hawkeye7 says it well. Edit warring, large numbers of moves, etc., are easily disruptive, and the MOS should not be used to bludgeon other editors with. I mean, behavior that's disruptive cannot simply be whisked away by saying "it's the MOS". Thank you, Drmies (talk) 00:26, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Comment – In relation to article content, I don't believe that changes to the MOS should act as a catalyst for editors to retroactively apply those changes to older articles that predate the change, especially when more than one style is acceptable. At the very least in these situations, the MOS shouldn't be relied upon for the last word when those changes are being contested. Instead, the typical process of establishing consensus through discussion should be followed. Perhaps the inclusion of more explicit text in the MOS' lead would help to clarify this to help avoid future confrontations like this one, but of course, that's a discussion to be had on its talk page – not here. --GoneIn60 (talk) 10:27, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
Clear violation of unblock conditions
Dicklyon was unblocked in December under the condition that he avoid making mass page moves (see [206]). Over the past several weeks, he has made dozens of page moves without gaining consensus first. The moves are also in clear violation of a recent RFC on the matter, which determined that grandfathering in existing titles was preferred (presumably to avoid the same mass moves Dicklyon has carried out). The WP:MoS, which Dicklyon and his followers point to in his defense, explicitly says "Where more than one style is acceptable, editors should not change an article from one of those styles to another without a good reason. Edit warring over optional styles is unacceptable."
So, to recap, Dicklyon is running afoul of his unblock condition, the RFC he cites and the MoS. He ought to, at a minimum, be told to stop making such controversial moves. Calidum ¤ 03:27, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Interestingly enough, Dicklyon was given a six-month ban from moving pages in April 2015 (see here). He was blocked indefinitely that same month, and a majority of users who commented on his unblock request in December felt that six-month ban should be kept in place. Calidum ¤ 03:48, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- If the mass moves without consensus don't stop, the next ban should be longer. Jonathunder (talk) 15:15, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- This might be an issue, but might not be. Dicklyon stopped pagemoves around the time the earlier ANI thread started. While he resumed them about 24 hours later (making around 50), it was after the thread had died down. What matters is the "potentially controversial" nature of the pagemoves: In other words, the unblock condition might be violated if the pagemoves weren't really controversial, but had the potential to be controversial. For me it hinges on the individual pagemoves made, at least after the ANI thread started, when Dicklyon was unquestionably on notice that there was a problem. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 16:02, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I suppose any move is "potentially controversial". Are any actually controversial? Is there any basis at all for Thewolfchild's position that my removal of a comma from ship name that doesn't have one in sources was controversial? I understand that I pissed him off by not following BRD; since his revert had a counterfactual reason for reverting, in his edit summary, I simply reverted that error; even that should not be seen as controversial; please review my actions there. Dicklyon (talk) 17:13, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- So you admit to edit-warring, page-move-warring and repeat-moving a page, after it was disputed, violating WP:MOS. Thanks, that makes things easier. - theWOLFchild 17:24, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- How about Larry Mullen, Jr., where you move-warred with an admin over the comma [207]? Just because your comrades in the anti-coma crusade showed up to oppose moving it back to the longstanding, stable title doesn't mean the move was uncontroversial. Or how about here [208] where you openly admit you edit redirects created by your page moves to make it impossible for non-admins to undo the undiscussed moves? Calidum ¤ 17:26, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Calidum, per this RM: Talk:Larry_Mullen_Jr.#Requested_move_20_March_2016, it appears that your using the "uncontroversial" process to add a comma against the guidance of the MOS was the more controversial bit. Yes, I reverted the resulting admin move (the same admin who opened the RM discussion in response to your attempt to again insert the comma), because it was incorrect, against a clear broad consensus as expressed at WP:JR. The RM discussion affirms this. I suggest people review that, too. Dicklyon (talk) 17:34, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- I suppose any move is "potentially controversial". Are any actually controversial? Is there any basis at all for Thewolfchild's position that my removal of a comma from ship name that doesn't have one in sources was controversial? I understand that I pissed him off by not following BRD; since his revert had a counterfactual reason for reverting, in his edit summary, I simply reverted that error; even that should not be seen as controversial; please review my actions there. Dicklyon (talk) 17:13, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Even if it were right in the end, it's still controversial. Don't play dumb. You're too smart to pretend these moves aren't controversial. Calidum ¤ 17:46, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- There is a "clear broad consensus" you say? Only 7 editors have participated in that still-open debate and there is clearly no consensus there at all. Your comment is, to put it politely, disingenuous. - theWOLFchild 22:35, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- @Mendaliv: - He knew full well these moves were controversial. His entire "war on commas" is. He was just brought to ANI for it, (see above) and his talk page is full of complaints about his page-moves and comma removals. Is this what the community had in mind when his indef block was lifted? Meanwhile, the page-moves and comma-removals need to stop for now. There needs to be a clear consensus and equally clear guideline on this before Dicklyon and Co. continue any further. - theWOLFchild 17:28, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- And the moves continue despite this ANI thread. See here for example. Calidum ¤ 18:49, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- And here - theWOLFchild 21:56, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- What would be the potential controversy when our MOS and the vast majority of sources are in agreement? I understand that sometimes people who prefer to "follow the sources" find edits toward the preference of our own MOS to be controversial when usage in sources is ambiguous or contrary to our style. That is not the case in any of these that we are discussing, is it? Perhaps these are not at all controversial unless you choose to make them so? And why would you? Dicklyon (talk) 18:52, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- But MOS clearly isn't in agreement with you here. And beyond that, the fact that the commas are an acceptable version and the moves are contested, means that the pages stay with their original titles. You know this, yet are deliberately ignoring it. Your continued conduct 'is therefore disruptive and completely flies in the face of your standard offer. The community allowed you back in after your recent indef block on the understanding you wouldn't cause anymore disruption. Just because you think you're right, doesn't mean that you are. You need to stop all this. - theWOLFchild 20:13, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- It may well be that Dicklyon is pushing the envelope here, and he's made a few more moves recently. What I cannot accurately judge is whether he's doing so disruptively, against consensus, by edit warring, etc. I see a few diffs, above, that allege edit warring--but what I would really like to hear here is what uninvolved editors have to say on the topic. For now, it may simply be that we have two parties fighting over content accusing each other of disruption. Wolfchild, I'm not saying you're wrong in your assessment--I'm just saying that if we were to reblock for violation of unblock conditions, those violations need to be unequivocal, and I don't see that right now. Mind you, I need some coffee. But what I really need is more voices here, and preferably another admin to judge this as well. Drmies (talk) 00:38, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Drmies At the very least, the page-moves and comma removals should stop until all this gets sorted out. That's what I'm asking for here. Even the guidelines support that (and leaving an errant comma in place will not exactly destroy the project). A block is not what I am primarily seeking here (but if the any admins or the community are considering imposing one, it has my support). Look at the 2015 archive for MOS:BLP, this has been going on for over a year, with no consensus and no end in sight. It's time to bring this to an end. I just want the disruption, that numerous editors have now complained about, to stop until there is a clear direction to take with all this. - theWOLFchild 00:51, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Dicklyon was unblocked with the wording "User unblocked (with provision to avoid large scale, controversial actions) per consensus here." Almost any MOS-based change is going to be large scale as it is not article specific. Faffing around with comma's is certainly controversial. And as comments at his unblocking were quite clear, editors were not keen on unblocking him with no restrictions. Perhaps Prodego erred in not making it explicit. But 'Dont make large scale changes in contested areas' should be clear enough to anyone. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:38, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Definitely need more voices, because both Calidum and Thewolfchild are huge fans of the unnecessary comma, upset that they didn't get what the wanted in the RfC. It is not at all the case that editors unconnected to the dispute are coming here because they feel something disruptive is going on that's affecting their editing. This is pure battlegrounding for personal reasons. If we all ran to ANI every time an article title pattern didn't go the way we preferred, ANI would just consist of a gladiatorial alternative to WP:MR with very little other material. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 06:15, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- And the moves continue today, perhaps because Dick has been emboldened by the inaction of those who've agreed he's in the wrong but fail to do anything. Calidum ¤ 21:18, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- What does it take to get the admins around here to do some adminning? Meanwhile, I've just now, quite suddenly and randomly, decided I no longer like question marks. Or the letter 'E'. Oh, and spaces, they're a waste of... space. I think I'll start changing every. single. article I come across that has a question mark, letter 'e' or space between words, by simply removing them. All of them. And I can do it to, just as soon as I re-write the MOS to say I can. (I wonder if the admins would so anything then?) - theWOLFchild 22:17, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Using standard RM processes are not a violation of the unblock conditions. Editwarring to unilaterally change MOS to say "every comma that can be removed must removed", or something otherwise extreme, and then fighting about it tendentiously would be. Nothing like that is happening here. Someone else (me) provided a shipload of sourcing on the current state of comma usage on a particular point (intended for mainspace use in article on English usage). Someone else proposed an RfC on that (RGloucester) relating to MoS's wording. People who cared commented. An Arb closed with a consensus finding (even if also some supervoting). A policy-compatible change was made to MOS:JR to update it post-RfC, and Dicklyon did not author any of that. Various RMs since then have challenged MOS:JR's applicability to various cases, and last I looked every single one of them was a landslide in favor of removing the comma (one exception needs to be broken up into mutiple cases, since it involves a ship named after someone, etc.). So where is the problem? What abuse is Dicklyon engaged in? You can't instruct someone to follow consensus-gauging and -building processes instead of acting unilaterally, and then punish them for following those processes, based on what others are doing (which also wasn't unilateral). There is no basis for this complaint other than "I don't like Dicklyon, and I'm not getting my way, so maybe if I make him seem to be a bad guy I will get my way after all." Well, no. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 06:08, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Statement by the accused
Sorry, not much internet on my long road trip today; just read this. You'll find my full confession (posted before this complaint was filed, I think) at this section. More context there, and more on request. Dicklyon (talk) 06:01, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
So much for "consensus"
The RfC you so heavily relied on is now a joke. Only 7 editors participated, few of whom actually agreed with you, and it wasn't even closed. I pinged those 7 editors, (including yourself), and them only, to clarify who supported what. And what do you do? You ping 14 other editors (and counting), none of whom participated in that discussion, and are likely cherry-picked 'anti-comma' people. And this is supposed to prove... what? The fact is, you lied, (again) and you were caught in that lie. You didn't have the consensus you claimed you did, and you can ping a hundred more people, nothing will change that fact. (Where that's guy that cries about canvassing when you actually need him anyway?) lolz... Despite whatever happens now, watching you panic and try to spin this is amusing... - theWOLFchild 07:02, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- How many times do I need to link it for you? It was recently archived from WP:VPP and I linked it on your other forum shop at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biographies#Consensus....3F. Dicklyon (talk) 16:00, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- "Forum shop"...? Forumshopping is raising the same issue at different places. Here I'm asking that you stop all your silly page-moves and comma removals. There I was simply trying to establish the so-called consensus you keep claiming supports your disruptive behaviour. (>bing!< - another lie shot down) Relax... no need to get all pissy just because so many people are disagreeing with you now. - theWOLFchild 22:53, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
We already have one thread on this, filed 2 days previously
- We already have one thread on this, filed 2 days previously: [209]. Could someone kindly combine the two threads/filings. Softlavender (talk) 04:39, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - The other report is now stale. They are both quite lengthy. There are also separate issues being discussed here. This one has been active for 3 days now, with many editors contributing, but not one complaining of a need to merge... (except for this proposer). Also, this report has been linked to other discussions, moving it would break those links. - theWOLFchild 07:07, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Comment from (uninvolved and uncanvassed editor): Reviewing the ongoing RFC about implementing WP:JR as it stands (on which I have not !voted, as I don't care, the most pertinent comment seems to come from @Guy Macon:: "Support Dicklyon's comma-removals, including the the page-moves. Reject the notion that when Wolfchild and Dicklyon fight over commas only one of them is at fault. Evidence, please regarding the claim that Dicklyon re-wrote WP:JR and MOS:BLP to support his position -- I want to see diffs. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:46, 8 April 2016 (UTC)" - It's evident from above that there are two sides to this and, as @Winkelvi: noticed above, one side has been disproportionately notified to come here. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- @In ictu oculi: As I said above, if you want to accuse me of something, then accuse me; file a complaint, a separate complaint. Cite your diffs, along with the relevant policies and whatever else you like, but do it somewhere else, and quit filling up this report with off-topic nonsense. Start your own ANI report, so you can actually learn what WP:CANVASSING is, and isn't. As for this ANI report, you clearly have no idea what it's about and I strongly suggest you read everything prior to participating so that you can make more informed, and relevant, comments. Take your time, there is a lot to read. Thank you - theWOLFchild 22:09, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Concur this is forum shopping. Something like four editors disagree with the outcome of an RfC, at Village Pump and very broadly advertised, which ran its full course and was based on a huge pile of source research, then closed not just by an admin but one of the WP:ARBCOM members. They are now trying to "re-legislate" it in every forum they can find, including threads on multiple MOS talk pages, multiple RMs (where they recycle the same refuted, emotive, and evidence-free arguments in a WP:IDHT pattern), and now multiple AN/ANI threads. It's patently litigious, tendentious, and vexatious. There is nothing untoward about someone using actual RM processes to propose moves that comply with guidelines based on RfCs, and relying upon evidence not opinions and feelings. There is something untoward about a handful of editors using every means at their disposal, including wikilawyering, and increasingly personalized disputation in contravention of WP:ARBATC#All parties reminded, to get their way at all costs, over a trivial punctuation desire that is no longer the preferred usage in modern off-WP publications, online or offline, in any genre, dialect, or register. The horse is very, very dead on this one. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 06:00, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
PS: A party who has not commented in this ANI thread at all has independently noted that Thewolfchild is engaging in WP:ASPERSIONS on this matter elsewhere [210]. Given the unclean-hands nature of this filing, and its clear "get rid of my enemy so I can WP:WIN" nature, I think a WP:BOOMERANG is in order. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 06:21, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nice tag-team at the end of an ANI that started with a bang, but ended with a whimper. Actually, make that a whine... - theWOLFchild 10:52, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- The underlying issue here is "how strenuously should MOS guidance be implemented?" When does strenuous implementation of MOS guidance cross the line and become disruption? We need to ask and answer that question before we can say whether Dick's behavior was disruptive or not. (And I suspect that there would be no consensus on that underlying question). Blueboar (talk) 15:27, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Persistent adding of unsourced puffery on page Frederick Achom
Aliopuka (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Frederick Achom ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
User:Aliopuka, has been vandalising the page Frederick Achom. He/she has made the same edits User:Alex1977-1 was blocked for making. You can check [211]. They both seem to be part of a large sockfarm of paid editors.NihartouJason (talk) 19:31, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Appears to have been inappropriately waning NihartouJason (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) Jim1138 (talk) 19:51, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Non-admin comment. I am a little concerned when I look at Aliopuka's contribs, because they seem to be getting around awful well for somebody with just 80 edits, slapping speedy deletes and CN and uncat tags on things. However, they may just be a very quick learner and not be a sock at all. We need a checkuser to be sure, and their edits don't look like "vandalism" and "puffery" to me anyway. Also, NihartouJason, it's not right to go around telling people that they can't edit a particular article. See WP:BOLD. White Arabian Filly Neigh 21:03, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- I am very concerned with the content Aliopuka is supporting. Quite a few of the references do not exist or mention the subject at all. (ex [212] <- looks like spam as opposed to reference [213] [214] [215] [216]). As such, I've removed those warnings as bogus. Also, I might want to point out this. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 21:41, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- This looks more like the PR department of a firm than actual sockpuppets. Guy (Help!) 21:58, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Comment : Actually, NihartouJason is vandalizing the article without taking part in the talk page discussion despite repeatedly asking and I have opened this discussion[217]. He is blatantly removing sourced material including awards and adding defamation content which clearly violates WP:BLP and WP:UNDUE.
My first edit to the page was[218] for which I left this talk page message[219] Later, when I saw removal of sourced content such as awards, career etc. from the page's edit history then I tried to add them back[220] from a neutral POV with {{cn}} where no sources were provided such as[221], [222] etc.
But instead of contacting me or leaving any message to any talk page, NihartouJason reported me here[223] where I made this comment[224] as NihartouJason seems to me a SPA account with a particular interest to insert defamation content only to the article. He has been warned on his talk pages but still he is reporting me instead of addressing the real issue on the talk. Aliopuka (talk) 02:58, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
@The Voidwalker:, I am not supporting any sources. I just tried to restore the deleted material removed by the SPA account[225] and repeatedly ask to discuss on the talk page to reach a consensus instead of blatantly removing the sourced materials. If the sources do not cite the claims then anyone can remove from the article with suitable edit summary or talk page message.Aliopuka (talk) 03:28, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
@JzG:, The SPA a/c User:NihartouJason seem to me a paid editor who might have any monetary issues with the subject of the page thus trying to add the defamation content to the page. Aliopuka (talk) 03:31, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Aliopuka: You are accusing me of not explaining myself on the talk page. Please have a look here. [226],[227]. My main concern is that if you have good intentions then why are you editing the page as the blocked user User:Alex1977-1 did, you just changes the language structure a bit and restored the previous questionable content[228].I reported him and he was blocked and is currently undergoing a sockpuppet investigation. And why do you keep removing the conviction information even when it is properly sourced. NihartouJason (talk) 04:16, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- So, finally you posted on the talk page[229]. Well, let me explain you. I used the revision by User:Addiecolb and not of any other editors. Secondly, you should discuss on the article's talk page and not on your sandbox. I checked your sandbox draft talk page and it is one sided judgement by only you. I do not see any other editors involvement in it. For example, you said the Jewish Business News source has no author but the news was by their staff reporter so need of a author however, the source does mention "By Jewish Business News" or you said this link[230] doesn't mention "Achom" while the source does mention him so you see, this is not a procedure to reach consensus. Why you removed the awards as well as presented the controversy with undue weight? What is your particular interest with "Frederick Achom"? Please, post your rationale on the article's talk page and treat appropriately with other editors. Aliopuka (talk) 06:23, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: The sandbox was created by User:Jeff G. and he invited anyone to present a more balanced article[231]. After completing the draft article, I posted the link on the main article's talk page no one objected it. I messaged a few editors who were active on this article to check my version. They told me if no one else obstructs then they will assume Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith. The awards you are referring to were not supported by any evidence the ones which were, I bumped them up to the intro section. The controversy is not of undue weight just google "Achom Wine Fraud"[http://www.standard.co.uk/goingout/restaurants/wine-scam-costs-investors-110m-6326500.html
] and you will know about it. Why do you keep removing it even after it is supported by adequate number of references?.NihartouJason (talk) 07:41, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Yes, I made that sandbox and did not oppose copying it to the main article after Jason was done with it. I am just trying to improve the project here, but I suspect others are POV pushing and not disclosing, which behavior warrants attention above my pay grade. — Jeff G. ツ (talk) 23:04, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Aliopuka: The warnings you are referring to were posted by you yourself on my talk page [232] and were later removed by User:The Voidwalker. He/she stated them as "bogus".NihartouJason (talk) 08:02, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I have checked your edits and wine fraud scam edits seem legitimate to me based on the sources you provided. However, I will further check all the references. But still you haven't answered why you removed the other adequately sourced materials? Why you mentioned that this link[233] didn't mention "Achom"? Do you know you can't just delete cited information solely because the URL to the source does not work any longer? Also, I do not know why User:The Voidwalker undid my warnings on your talk page and stating those warnings as bogus as they were not! Anyway, I have asked him for his rationale as you have clearly removed sourced material from the article which I have restored and are still there on the page.Aliopuka (talk) 13:44, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I removed the warnings because I could see serious referencing issues in the material that was being removed. However, a more thorough review shows that a good bit of the material is quite acceptable. Ordinarily, one should review the material they add/remove to an article.
- I don't really believe that there is much abuse going on here, rather than a failure to understand. More discussion, rather than templating or reporting, likely would have solved the issues here. Time permitting, I plan on going through the article and cleaning up the material. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 22:58, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- From the very beginning I insisted on discussion but the SPA User:NihartouJason reported me twice! Any editor can check the page's edit history how sourced material was removed by User:NihartouJason. I just tried to restore the deleted material and reach consensus for improving the project. If removal of large section with awards/accolades, careers is not against Wikipedia norms then what are? If you see serious referencing issues then you could have discussed on the talk page or with the concerned editor instead of removing the warnings. Please, also note that the SPA User:NihartouJason was previously warned for removal of sourced content. I have just tried to restore deleted materials first as there were edit wars on that article (check the page history for clear understanding). Clearly, your judgement was wrong! Anyway, I undid your removal of warnings as the warnings were not "bogus" IMO and left a message on that talk page. Feel free to discuss regarding this and honestly, I checked the removed materials by the SPA user and not all the material had serious referencing issues as you stated. Further the SPA editor reported me instead of discussion or any talk page message as per standard Wikipedia norms. Btw, if you see any referencing issue then feel free to discuss on talk page or edit yourself with a edit summary. I will be happy to discuss on any improvements to the article. Regards, Aliopuka (talk) 05:55, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- As far as article content goes, I'll review soon to solve the issues I pointed out above, and will be discussing article content on the article talkpage. As far as the warnings go, I was on the edge about them, and won't be making a fuss about them. NihartouJason certainly could have handled the situation better by talking more. Addressing the behavior here is difficult. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 20:06, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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Global IP rangeblock
I just got caught in a global IP rangeblock made by @Masti: over on Meta. The message I got telling me about this (when trying to rollback anti-Semitic vandalism on the RefDesk) and then when I tried to post an unblock request on my talkpage was "Permission error
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You do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reason:
Your IP address is in a range which has been blocked on all wikis.
The block was made by Masti (meta.wikimedia.org). The reason given is Cross-wiki vandalism: + leaky colo.
Start of block: 19:05, 6 April 2016 Expiration of block: 19:05, 6 October 2016
You can contact Masti to discuss the block. You cannot use the "Email this user" feature unless a valid email address is specified in your account preferences and you have not been blocked from using it. Your current IP address is 188.29.164.122, and the blocked range is 188.29.164.0/23. Please include all above details in any queries you make."
Now, firstly it is a bit rich to leave established editors with no way to request an unblock on their home wiki, secondly it is even richer to block established users with no effort to communicate with them directly, and thirdly, the IP range is for mobile services from 3, one of the major UK mobile providers, so is likely to affect many good-faith users. DuncanHill (talk) 00:34, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Without commenting on the merits of the block or its validity, a /23 block only covers 512 IP addresses, and is not likely to affect many people. It may be that you just got unlucky with this one. /23 is very targeted, and should not affect most (or even many) of that network's mobile providers. That does not say that the block is justified, or that you don't have a complaint, but rather that the portion of your complaint that it affects an entire ISP, or even that it affects a large number of addresses, isn't true. ---Jayron32 01:49, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I didn't say it affected an entire ISP, or a large number of addresses (I wouldn't pretend to have the faintest idea how many addresses it did affect). I did say it's likely to affect a large number of people, as every time someone comes online they are likely to have a different address, and so, over 6 months it is likely to affect many. Even if it could be guaranteed to "only" affect 512 people, to leave them without any on-wiki way of appealing is unacceptable. DuncanHill (talk) 01:55, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Dropped a notification on Masti's TP for you. A ping is not considered sufficient notification due to the notorious way pings can fail. Blackmane (talk) 03:10, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- I change the block to unregistered users only. So You should be able to edit now. Sorry for the problems @DuncanHill: Masti (talk) 09:06, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Thanks, I am now global IP block exempt too. I had no idea that pings were notoriously unreliable! DuncanHill (talk) 14:58, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- However both the big red text at the top of the page and orange box you see when you edit do say "must notify them on their user talk page" so the reasons are largely moot unless it's a discussion over the reasons. Perhaps the point of confusion is the ""discussion about an editor" bit, but that's normally taken to mean if you discussion includes commentary on the editor, they should be notified. Nil Einne (talk) 17:11, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- And the notices have been there so long that they merge into the background. I also rather think they did not always specify talkpage. Masti was well aware that I was unhappy with the situation as I had emailed him via Meta, mentioning that this was my home wiki. DuncanHill (talk) 19:28, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- However both the big red text at the top of the page and orange box you see when you edit do say "must notify them on their user talk page" so the reasons are largely moot unless it's a discussion over the reasons. Perhaps the point of confusion is the ""discussion about an editor" bit, but that's normally taken to mean if you discussion includes commentary on the editor, they should be notified. Nil Einne (talk) 17:11, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks, I am now global IP block exempt too. I had no idea that pings were notoriously unreliable! DuncanHill (talk) 14:58, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- But they have to actually try to edit while using the IP, so in reality it's not particularly likely to affect that many registered editors unless the IP range happens to be used by a some large company (since it's a mobile IP not very likely) or something (I wonder why such a small range was blocked and whether there's something to do with the assignment policy which means people only tend to get a small number in which case it could be certain editors would have gotten it a lot or it's very rare). While there are quite a few anonymous contributions from that range to en.wikipedia, non registered editors always run the risk they will be blocked if others misuse their IPs and a /23 isn't considered sufficiently small that it may be justified if there are problems. I see some mention of leaky colo which I presume means leaky colocation, so the number may be slightly higher but then again perhaps this leak colo falls in to the open proxy arena (like a webhost) so they aren't allow to edit from that anyway. (Blocking a whole countries proxyy tends to be the more controversial thing.) Note that ultimately if you have problems editing from an IP and that IP was blocked for good reason, you should be complaining to your ISP for failing to have decent abuse policies or failing to enforce them as you're I presume paying your ISP for service which they aren't able to provide. Nil Einne (talk) 17:08, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I was trying to edit from an account, not as an IP. Apparently registered users also always run the risk that they will be blocked for the deeds of others and with no on-wiki appeal. DuncanHill (talk) 19:34, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- If I might interject, what are we hoping to accomplish here? Masti has converted the global block to anon only in response to DuncanHill's request. DH was granted global IPBE so this won't occur again. Furthermore, I removed the local block in less than 15 minutes from DH's email to me. (~00:29 UTC April 7) It sounds to me that things have been handled correctly and promptly. DH, if you are dissatisfied with Masti's block, that's an issue that you will have to raise on meta. Mike V • Talk 22:49, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I was dissatisfied with the impossibility of appealing a block made without notification! Now, I do have email enabled, so after the initial shock and confusion I was able to contact some likely looking admins, but anyone who does not is left with no method whatsoever of seeking any kind of help. And Mike, I never asked you to undermine Masti's block by removing it locally, I asked you to restore my IPBE
here on en-wikiwhich you had earlier removed on en-wiki without telling me, and make it apply to all wikis so at the very least I could ask for help in a more conducive environment. DuncanHill (talk) 10:59, 9 April 2016 (UTC) and edited DuncanHill (talk) 11:10, 9 April 2016 (UTC)- Removing a global block locally wasn't undermining Masti's actions. If there's a global block in place that does not have a positive benefit to en.wiki, any administrator can adjust it. In my emails to you I informed you that only stewards can apply a global IPBE and provided you avenues to request one. (Remember, IPBE on en.wiki only applies to local en.wiki hard blocks.) The reason you weren't directly contacted about the block is because your IP address was blocked, not your account. The blocking steward was not aware that you were on the range. When a user is blocked, directly or editing on a hard blocked range, he or she can still edit his or her talk page unless talk page access is revoked. Looking at the block log shows that was not the case, so you should have been able to place an unblock request on meta. Mike V • Talk 16:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- I was dissatisfied with the impossibility of appealing a block made without notification! Now, I do have email enabled, so after the initial shock and confusion I was able to contact some likely looking admins, but anyone who does not is left with no method whatsoever of seeking any kind of help. And Mike, I never asked you to undermine Masti's block by removing it locally, I asked you to restore my IPBE
- Small comment to DuncanHill and Blackmane before this gets closed: "I had no idea that pings were notoriously unreliable!". They are reliable. If they are not working, you are doing something wrong, like not typing four tildes in the same post as your ping. See WP:PING. The reason Talk-page notification is necessary is that that makes it official and firmly recorded (for the user and for others) and highly visible (not ignorable). Plus, some people don't read notifications closely or immediately or read all of them or may only skim their notifications; some people get dozens of pings a day; there is also no way of fully knowing how urgent or important a ping is unless one actually visits the page in question; some people don't format pings correctly (misspell username, don't type four tildes, etc.); and there is also a very remote possibility that a few people may have mention-notifications turned off (although I've never heard of anyone who does). -- Softlavender (talk) 07:30, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- User talk:Materialscientist says "I turned off most notifications in my preferences, and therefore can't see pings, sorry." This may be related to the second userbox on their user page, which says "This user believes that the meaning of life is to live a happy life." MPS1992 (talk) 12:48, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- As Softlavender says, one needs to remember to do the pings plus sigs together. Going back and adding in your sig or ping after the fact causes the ping to fail. If one makes a post but forgets to ping, make a new post. Best policy when using pings is to use the Show Preview to double check. Blackmane (talk) 12:15, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Continued disruption from previously banned IP editor "Claudia"
- 115.188.178.77 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
IP editor 115.188.178.77, who calls herself/himself “Claudia” and loudly expresses regressive and occasionally racist views of Maori culture and New Zealand colonial history, has been blocked at least three times for disruptive editing and obnoxious behaviour, including under the IP address 122.62.226.243.in 2012[234], 2013 and 2014.
She continues to wage a crusade through talk pages against the highly respected New Zealand historian James Belich. Past tirades are here, here, here, an in the four threads archived at the Belich article talk page, here. Her renewed attack is at this talk page; she (again) cites the authors Pugsley and Richards in her derisive comments, though when challenged recently to produce the actual statements of those authors, she could not.[235] I deleted her last Belich comment on the grounds that it was an attack not relevant to the article; she restored it and added a further criticism of Belich: see Talk:Duncan Cameron (British Army officer)#No Personal attack on Belich.
Out of nowhere she has launched an attack on another respected historian [236]; she has also made claims about another historian's conclusions [237] which in that thread I quickly proved to be completely fabricated and wrong. This echoes her past attacks at historian Michael King, prior to her last 12-month block.
Her past behaviour has included faking citations (see this complaint); her recent efforts have included adding a fictionalised “quote” within an article which was nothing more than a stab in the dark of something she had once read (see this and this thread.) Despite her past blocks her edits tend to be inflammatory and trollish and she has a long history of inserting demonstrably false claims within historical material that reflect her strong anti-Maori outlook. She is highly disruptive, creates loads of work for other editors to clean up behind her. And her trail of long talk page posts are usually unsigned. She has not learned to be collaborative and has not modified her behavior. BlackCab (TALK) 01:01, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- If I may add to this. I have encountered Claudia on many occasions. She/he is so persistent, unreasonable, and closed to any attempt of a civilised discussion that my policy has become to take a page off my watchlist once Claudia starts to take an interest in it. Schwede66 01:36, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Am I right in thinking this is a LTA editor? Do we have a page where all the reports of this editor are logged? The earliest report I can find is December 2012 (edit: mentioned above)--Malcolmxl5 (talk) 02:11, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I had the same thoughts. Something pinged in the back of my mind about an editor would slag off a source based on what they read but could never produce evidence of that material merely insisting that they were sure they had read it and others who disputed should just take their word for it. I'm also wondering whether that person was banned. I don't think there was a LTA page for them though. Blackmane (talk) 02:43, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- For reference, the contributions of this IP 122.62.226.243 (talk · contribs · logs).
- Aha found something! ANI archived report. I also found that I participated in the block discussion...how about that?
- Pinging @Daveosaurus:, @Gadfium:, @Stuartyeates: who have some history with this user. Also pinging @Carrite: and @Softlavender: who contributed to the discussion and had some dissenting views as well as @EdJohnston: who blocked the IP. Blackmane (talk) 03:04, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Claudia has been editing since at least July 2009, and the question of how to manage her edits has been discussed sporadically since September 2010. Her edits have not improved since her year-long block in November 2014. I think a ban from articles on New Zealand history, broadly construed, would be appropriate.-gadfium 03:21, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- I've pulled together a table of reports to the administrator noticeboards. Let me know if I've missed anything. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 03:34, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I've added a couple of blocks to the table. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 06:18, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- And added the BLPN report.--Malcolmxl5 (talk) 06:58, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- I've added a couple of blocks to the table. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 06:18, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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Date Report Note 1 September 2010 ANI/19th century New Zealand history 16 August 2012 Blocked for 31 hours 5 December 2012 ANI/Racially charged editing by IP 122.62.226.243 at articles to do with the New Zealand Wars Blocked for 31 hours 6 January 2013 Blocked for 48 hours 14 January 2013 ANI/IP user flagrantly ignores WP:V and WP:NPOV 10 May 2013 3RR/122.62.226.243 reported by User:BlackCab Blocked for two weeks 2 July 2013 Blocked for one month 13 August 2013 ANI/User_talk:122.62.226.243 advice and guidance please 7 November 2014 ANI/Well-meaning but clueless IP editor Blocked for one year 1 April 2016 BLPN/Duncan Cameron (British Army officer)
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- User:BlackCab also filed at BLPN on 1 April. The thread is still open at WP:BLPN#Duncan Cameron (British Army officer). One of the diffs is this post by Claudia on the talk page of the living person James Belich (historian). Claudia's previous critique of this man is in Talk:James Belich (historian)/Archive 1. If another block is appropriate, it could be for two years. EdJohnston (talk) 04:41, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- In July 2013 Claudia was also blocked for a month by User:Moriori for similar behaviour. [238] That's four blocks I'm aware of, but still no modification of editing behavior. BlackCab (TALK) 05:16, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- A recent interaction with Claudia, to show the level of aggravation she creates, is at Talk:Treaty of Waitangi#Proclamations 1840 style. BlackCab (TALK) 05:25, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Nothing more to say on the topic not said above, except that the primary target, James Belich (historian), has continued to receive professional accolades, implying that professional historian community in no way shares the IP's views. Stuartyeates (talk) 06:55, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
Given the singlemindedness of this person in their attacks on this historian and that their editing is restricted to topics about NZ history, a topic ban would amount to a site ban. Given their disruptiveness, that might actually be a better option. Blackmane (talk) 02:40, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not sure a ban on the topic of NZ history would do the job. Claudia has also launched her attacks on conventional historical narrative (complete with conspiracy theories) at the talk pages of such articles as Māori King Movement, Parihaka, Waitara, New Zealand and Treaty of Waitangi, which she could conceivably argue are not articles on NZ history per se. She was given very firm guidance at the time of the last 12-month ban on how to conduct herself, but is in fact doing exactly the same thing. Unless the topic ban was for anything related to New Zealand, I would prefer a complete block, and a longer one this time. BlackCab (TALK) 03:20, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Claudia does seem to have a couple of other interests: boats and bicycles, from memory (and a cursory look at her recent contributions). I don't know enough about those subjects to know whether or not there is any value to her contributions, but at least those subjects don't seem to be as full of BLP-violation potential as New Zealand history.
- I agree with Gadfium that a topic ban would be approriate - at least as a first step. Maybe a permanent topic ban from the history of New Zealand, or anything to do with the Māori people, or any biographies of living persons - or any combination of the three, up to and including all of them. Daveosaurus (talk) 06:03, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- This editor has not changed her editing behaviour since the last block. This edit, summarising/paraphrasing the first paragraph on this webpage, confirms my suspicion as to her identity, at the same time confirming that many edits originate from her own work. This is certainly suggestive of extensive POV pushing. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 06:47, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- DerbyCountyinNZ, is that related to the bulk of material on the Pre-Māori settlement of New Zealand theories article? Similar self-published authors involved here. BlackCab (TALK) 07:35, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- I don't think so, maybe just coincidence. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 07:45, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- DerbyCountyinNZ, is that related to the bulk of material on the Pre-Māori settlement of New Zealand theories article? Similar self-published authors involved here. BlackCab (TALK) 07:35, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I'd honestly guess that it's not her site - Claudia appears ignorant of even basic Wiki markup while whoever produced that page seems to at least know their way around a content management / web page creator program. I'd just put that down to Claudia being unable to tell good sources from bad - she's had that problem before (once I had trouble finding any evidence that one of her sources even existed other than as an Internet document, because she used a garbled version of its name that the only other occurences then findable in Google all traced back to one white-supremacist blog). Daveosaurus (talk) 10:39, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- I have no interest in outing Claudia, but that website and that ideology probably help feed her conspiracy theories that lead to the denigration of Belich, King, Orange, Dalton, O'Malley and every researcher ever employed by the Waitangi Tribunal. BlackCab (TALK) 11:00, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Please let us not stoop to outing. The IP's ideology is not the problem; the IP's long-term disruptive editing style is the problem. Stuartyeates (talk) 19:28, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- I have no interest in outing Claudia, but that website and that ideology probably help feed her conspiracy theories that lead to the denigration of Belich, King, Orange, Dalton, O'Malley and every researcher ever employed by the Waitangi Tribunal. BlackCab (TALK) 11:00, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'd honestly guess that it's not her site - Claudia appears ignorant of even basic Wiki markup while whoever produced that page seems to at least know their way around a content management / web page creator program. I'd just put that down to Claudia being unable to tell good sources from bad - she's had that problem before (once I had trouble finding any evidence that one of her sources even existed other than as an Internet document, because she used a garbled version of its name that the only other occurences then findable in Google all traced back to one white-supremacist blog). Daveosaurus (talk) 10:39, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- If she's continuing the same disruptive editing that she received a one-year block for, I don't think a topic ban is going to help. I'd say another very longterm block is in order. I'm also pinging additional editors involved in or referred to in the November 2014 ANI [239]: BlackCab, and Stuartyeates, and the following editors who posted warnings on her talk page up through November 2014: [240] Irondome, Transcendence, Moriori, Amtalic, Gadfium, Drmies, Sue Rangell, Rudolp89, Rudolp89, Adabow, DI2000, Winkelvi, Mufka, DerbyCountyinNZ, Bradshaws1, Epipelagic, Jim1138, Dennis Bratland, JoeSperazza, I dream of horses, and Andrewprout. -- Softlavender (talk) 03:19, 9 April 2016 (UTC) Also, the following editors supported her one-year block in November 2014 [241]: Jusdafax, Gadfium, Ruby2010, Moriori, Andrewgprout, QPT. -- Softlavender (talk) 03:26, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- I wanna say I ran into this editor before the 2014 ANI thread (in which I actually can't find my comments, if there were any), and I wanna say I remember them from article/article talk space. Unworkable with, and apparently nothing's changed. Drmies (talk) 04:01, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- BTW, "x is considered unreliable (some would say VERY unreliable)" is a very nice Trumpism. Drmies (talk) 04:02, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Drmies, you blocked her in 2012 and 2013 [242], [243]. -- Softlavender (talk) 11:16, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Thanks to the editor who gave the actual link to this page.The volume of criticism is rather overwhelming and it seems to me rather reactionary and misguided. I cant deal with it all now but a core problem seems to be that I am expressing my personal opinions about J Belich. For those editors who are not kiwis Mr Belich wrote a book based on his PhD about the NZ Wars in which he came up with a whole range of new ideas and theories. The book was very readable and popular and later made into a very popular 10?part TV seriesback in the 1980s and has entered NZ culture as the TV series was then made into a detailed teaching resource for secondary schools which was widely used I understand.
Black Cab (and his cheer leaders) seem to think that I have "made up" the criticism of Belich. This is just not true. After his first edition Belich himself was aware enough of an undercurrent of criticism of his book and some of his themes-enough to revise the 2nd edition and in particular add in the preface an admission that as a young man he had an "anti British attitude" and he was a "revisionist". It was a kind of explanation /apology.
Since then a raft of well known military historians especially Chris Pugsley and Richard Taylor (both army officers as well as historians) have criticised Belich in far more detail. Pugsley's main effort was in the short lived NZ Defence Quarterly in which he systematically debunked many of Belich's theories. In 2013 M.Hill completed his study of the Taranaki war in which he looked in detail at the historiography dealing with the war. He assembled some of the criticism of Belich in this MA thesis."The First Taranaki War. MA in History. Massey University.M.R. Hill 2013".It is now on line. Most of the information below is between P26 and 30 To summarize some of the points : 1 He identifies a range of historians who have issues with Belich and presents the evidence. 2 That Belich did not understand the mechanics of war. He did not understand military terms such as strategy, tactics or ammunition. 3 His idea that Maori invented trench warfare "was universally dismissed". 4 Not visiting or walking the battlefields (until many years later)and as a result making errors in distance and time leading to misunderstandings. 5 Maxwell (another historian) says"Belich mislead readers". 6 Belich "is virtually under seige" 7 I McFarlane wrote to Penguin complaining about "factual inaccuracy". 8 He says there is a"strange anti British and pro Maori undertow"(P30) 9 That Belich turned what were merely rumours into facts.
This is a brief summary only of Hills work. Note neither Belich nor his publisher have ever attempted to answer any of the points raised but Belich did leave NZ. I should note that when I pointed this out 2-3 years ago one editor made very snide remarks suggesting I was " attacking "him. As you can see it was not me attacking him but other historians.ieIT is fact that he was being criticised by his peers and he did go overseas. I should point out that there are only a handful of NZ historians working in this area (I would say about 12). NZ is a small market and as one of Hill's sources has said "its not possible to criticise Belich in NZ " -by that he means, I guess, the general ,ie not well informed, public.
I think a few editors have very fixed(maybe even partisan) views on NZ history so have come out with weird and wonderful accusations to justify deleting views that don't coincide with their own rather old fashioned notions. It is typical of such views to say that a different view is racist! They appear to have worked themselves into a digital lather! My position is that all views should be presented and in particular views or information that shows that an older historian was "misguided!" because they were writing with a deliberate intention to revise( Hill's thesis would suggest possibly distort) history. Marxist historians(of which NZ has had a few) are very good at rewriting history to support a particular political point of view. In the academic world informed criticism is welcomed. But Belich prefers not to answer it seems. You may wish to read M Hill and comment further? I'm pleased to answer any questions, though my response may not be immediate as Im very busy at work.115.188.178.77 (talk) 04:23, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- The issue is never about whether you 'have "made up" the criticism of Belich'; the issue is whether you have supplied reliable sources for claims you have inserted into wikipedia. All claims on wikipedia need reliable sources, that's what makes it an encyclopedia. I believe I speak for the consensus of editors when I say that we don't care what you say about Belich, or Belich's research or the subjects of Belich's research. What we care about is having sources for claim, positive or negative and including them in useful ways in the articles. Stuartyeates (talk) 07:44, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- This comment by Claudia demonstrates her misinterpretation and BLP violations resulting from it. Reading her statement, one could be forgiven for assuming that he had left New Zealand 'under a cloud'. But nothing could be further from the truth. He had in fact been appointed to a professorship at Oxford University in England, here [244] described as "one of the top jobs in the world in his field"; "awarded to a historian of exceptional and international reputation."
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- Another example of inability to correctly comprehend statements, this time without BLP problems (all participants are pseudonymous) is here: User_talk:122.62.226.243/Archive_1#Where_to_go_from_here Claudia at the time was claiming that for vague privacy-related reasons, she couldn't sign up for a Wikipedia account. I pointed out "If you create an account, nobody but Wikipedia administrators (and maybe only certain administrators, at that - this isn't something I've paid much attention to) would have access to your IP address"; Gadfium confirmed my suspicion, and clarified: "Administrators (such as myself) can't see a logged in user's IP address. It takes a checkuser, who goes through additional scrutiny and has to reveal their real-life identify to the WikiMedia Foundation, to see that."; which Claudia interpreted as "Thankyou gadfium for your information -it seems that old Dave was wrong again." If I'd been editing under a real name, that would have been a BLP violation right there - at least as I see it (but I seem to be a bit tougher on BLP than I should be). Daveosaurus (talk) 13:59, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Request: Could someone please post a list (at the top) of all the IPs this editor has edited under? I believe some editors who have actually interacted with her are having a hard time of placing her or her habits without the entire list. (For instance, thus far I am aware of 122.62.226.243 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · edit filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), 115.188.178.77 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · edit filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), and very early 222.153.154.45 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · edit filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log).) -- Softlavender (talk) 11:29, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Add 219.89.178.121 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · edit filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and 125.237.39.161 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · edit filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) BlackCab (TALK) 23:24, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- User:Stuartyeates says: "I believe I speak for the consensus of editors when I say that we don't care what you say about Belich, or Belich's research or the subjects of Belich's research." In fact part of the problem is the fact that Claudia is using Wikipedia articles and talk pages as a soapbox for her distinctive view of NZ history, which involves a campaign to discredit Belich and other historians. I provided the links to some of her talk page comments at the outset of this complaint; at this edit she goes further by unilaterally deciding that Belich's view is not only wrong but has no place in the article at all. I keep finding long soapbox comments, many of them unsigned, at a range of talk pages where she expounds her unique take on history and lambasts real historians. She has been advised many times to start a blog of her own rather than misuse Wikipedia pages. BlackCab (TALK) 13:01, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Proposal
Sample proposal: Since disruptive behavior has resumed following a one-year block (and four five prior blocks over the previous two years), perhaps a CIR indef or site-ban is in order. Softlavender (talk) 11:38, 9 April 2016 (UTC); edited 04:02, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- I've been doing some sleuthing on the net and have come across some interesting information regarding this issue and have a working hypothesis of what is going on here. However, the conclusion violates WP:OUTING. Suffice to say, there is a real world implication here, particularly at a professional level if Claudia is who I suspect it to be, provided it's not an impostor. If any admin wishes to seek further information from me, they are free to email me. On that note, I strongly support a site ban. Blackmane (talk) 12:43, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Considering she is targeting specific historians (all of them living if I'm not mistaken), and attacking them, a COI would not surprise me in the least. Given Blackmane's statements, I strongly support a site ban as well. Softlavender (talk) 13:33, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support a site ban for an indefinite period. The editor has shown no willingness to modify her behavior. BlackCab (TALK) 13:44, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support another one-year block I think an indef and site-ban is too much. Another year will hopefully get the point across. Not wanting to bring WP:BEANS to this individual's plate, but, an indef might encourage sockpuppetry. If a year doesn't do the trick this time, then an indefinite block can be put in place. Yes, I know they have been blocked previously, but I'm all for giving chances. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 19:09, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support either a site ban or a one-year block. Stuartyeates (talk) 19:31, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support site ban. Four blocks never fixed the problem and another won't either in my opinion. The number of hours that editors have spent undoing her damage must be mind boggling. The first sentence of WP:Disruption says "Disruptive editing is a pattern of editing that may extend over a long time or many articles, and disrupts progress toward improving an article or building the encyclopedia." The cap fits. Moriori (talk) 21:24, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support site ban. She's been editing since 2006 (at Bucklands Beach) and is getting worse, not better.-gadfium 21:43, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support site ban - TBH, I'm quite amazed that the individual wasn't site banned, long ago. GoodDay (talk) 04:10, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- Support site ban - Her history of disruptiveness and personal attacks are quite staggering. The community should not put up with this appalling behavior. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 17:51, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
European Graduate School - the return of Claudioalv
- European Graduate School ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- See this now archived ANI thread
Hi All. I had mentioned that Claudioalv and i were talking off line, to talk through his COI issues more candidly. He has now posted a disclosure on his user page.
This was one of a few options he and I had discussed for his next steps in Wikipedia. In light of his choice and the disclosure he has made, I am posting the following diffs for the community's consideration. I had also provided these to Claudioalv and given him my thoughts on them.
- here Claudioalv says it is his understanding that what Guy said about him is "defamation"
- here he says to Guy "On the opposite, you still refusing to look at the 2015 Accreditation in Malta and you used this talk page and the EGS article to defame the School by abusing your power as an administrator (for example I was blocked without any reason and now I am thinking that other users that you call sockpuppetry had the same treatment)."
- here he says about Guy's editing: " In legalese I would call that bad faith and defamation"
- here he says that Guy has "maliciously built an article in order to defame the EGS"
- here he says "Waiting 30 days is just postpone the issue that an editor is defaming EGS by keep posting false information."
- here he says to Guy "You are here to defame the school and not to write a neutral Enciclopedia and because the Wikipedia weak policy you have been successful"
- here he says to Guy "By refusing to recognize Maltese law is showing that your conduct is malicious, and your only purpose here is defaming EGS"
I am not sure if he still "owns" these statements or would retract them; I believe he understands Wikipedia somewhat differently now than he did before we started emailing offline. But I will leave that for him to say, and of course the community will do with all this as it will. Jytdog (talk) 05:43, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- The references to defamation are a clear implied legal threat and need to be removed.
- I did not create the article. The edit history shows that I have made exactly two edits to the article, almost a decade apart. Two.
- In point of fact, I would be astounded if the creator was anyone other than the school itself. The initial version makes no mention of the accreditation issues even though it pre-dates the accreditation of some courses by Malte, so was at a time when no accreditation was apparently in place anywhere. As I think others have said, nobody cares about this article other than them (as a marketplace) and a few Wikipedians who are not entirely delighted with commercial entities abusing Wikipedia for promotional purposes. Of the two, the more motivated by far is the school. That is why they have sent so many WP:SPAs to whitewash the article over the years.
- Finally, does anybody here genuinely think that legitimate schools need to hire attorneys to bully people into calling them accredited? Srsly? Guy (Help!) 09:41, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Now that at least one editor has weighed in , I will say that in my view these statements are clear violations of WP:NLT - especially given their repetition and the fact that person who made them is an attorney semi-representing the school - and Claudioalv should be indefinitely blocked for making them. They can address whether they wish to retract these statements in their unblock request. Jytdog (talk) 17:47, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Agree, they should be blocked per WP:NLT and probably also as WP:NOTHERE. Joseph2302 (talk) 18:15, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- I suggest reading the thread above WP:ANI#Legal threat in edit summary?[245](and still not archived off this page), in particular User:Newyorkbrad's remarks. Thincat (talk) 20:35, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks, Thincat, for the cross-reference, as I'd like for more people to read what I wrote in that thread. OF course, the portion of my comments dealing with treatment of newcomers wouldn't apply in full to a much more experienced editor. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:40, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- The purpose of WP:NLT, as I understand it, is to prevent the chilling effect of threatening potentially expensive off-wiki legal action. In this case the mention of the user's position in a law firm and their relationship with a lawyer retained by the subject is certainly intimidating, and it's hard to believe this is not intentional. Guy (Help!) 22:52, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Thanks @Jytdog for your explanation about Wikipedia Policy. It was very helpful. As I have already written you, I was not aware about the rules, policy, and regulations in Wiki. It was my understanding that by reading the terms of Use I could write in the talk page (actually I have never edited any article).
- I apologyze with Guy if my affirmation (what I said are personal opinions and do not reflect EGS statements) made above constitute legal threat and WIki does not allow it. It is clearly stated in its policy, but I did not read it. I retract them and I am fine to remove them. I do not know how to do it, but if the community does help me, it would be great.
hatting OFFTOPIC part of this |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
However, I do find that the School does not merit to be defined as questionable or pasty (as Guy did), because of the history of the article. I think that Guy does not know the School, but by defining the school in this way he is not an independent administrator who should look over the article(in fact, he reverted the article half an hour late a different ad update it with the Maltese accreditation). That was the reason why I opened the ANI. He would never change his opinion, nor if the President of the U.S. would say that the school is accredited. I was familiar with the EGS accreditation since January 2016 and the history dates back to years. Not being recognized in Texas, does not mean that the school confer degrees mill. This is the general understanding by reading the article and this is not true. I have also sent to @Jtddog the full official maltese accreditation. It was conferred in February 2016 (before the school was an Higher Education School and now it is a University with the recent maltese accreditation). There are no publications about the recent U accreditation because it is recent (however some Maltese article mention the 2016 accreditation, see Rfc in the EGS talk page). I do not understand why Wiki policy does not allow to say that the school is accredited in Malta(this info relies on an official governmental institute documentation and even if it is primary it is verifiable on their website) and we need to wait for an independent article. I think this is discrimination, because Wiki relies on Texas official Department of Education info and does not rely on the Maltese official governmental accreditation. By and large this was the argument I raised. I do not think administrators who looked over the article are idiots, nor I think I am. I do agree with Jztdog: "nobody cares about this article other than them and a few Wikipedians". But what about if Wiki defines your business "pasty" or "questionable"? Would you be happy or would you try to say the contrary if you have good reason to say that? EGS is not my business, and I did not promote them. I was just aware about the Malta accreditation (and the fact that two U.S. states does not mention anymore EGS in any list) and I spent my free time raising an argument on Wiki. I was probably wrong in "how" to raise this argument because I am not an expert of Wiki. But the content of my argument is based on official documents. I know that you disagree until an article publication is made and I still do not understand this rule. But I appreciate your time in clarifying me the Wiki policy. Thanks.
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- OK, this ANI thread is not for discussing the content dispute. I have hatted content-related discussion. So Claudialv has retracted the legal threats. The community can determine if that is sufficient to close this, or if Claudioalv should still be indeffed for having made them at all. Jytdog (talk) 23:48, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Or as a disruptive WP:SPA on a mission. Guy (Help!) 07:28, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Actually I want to edit an other article. My roommate is listed in Wiki with her husband surname even if they divorced some years ago. Divorce certificate is not listed anywhere, she tried to update her article, but she found this task very challanging and the current status is not longer true. I hope that this time I do not have to disclose that I am her roommate, nor that I am not going to charge her for editing a Wiki article. Thanks. Claudioalv (talk) 15:36, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Or as a disruptive WP:SPA on a mission. Guy (Help!) 07:28, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- OK, this ANI thread is not for discussing the content dispute. I have hatted content-related discussion. So Claudialv has retracted the legal threats. The community can determine if that is sufficient to close this, or if Claudioalv should still be indeffed for having made them at all. Jytdog (talk) 23:48, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
Automotive IP user
An user with different ip addresses wants to use the words "utility vehicle" in lots of articles. It has been discussed at WikiProject Automobiles, and almost everyone agreed that it was a bad idea. That didn't stop him from edit warring to the point that three pages were protected yesterday. Today he continued with the same type of edits in other articles: 202.94.72.250 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · edit filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) And when I reverted his edits he begun reverting edits by me and by another user that has reverted his, including several edits in articles unrelated to the "utility vehicle" dispute: 116.212.233.96 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · edit filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) All the ip addresses he uses seem to be located in Perth. ⛐Boivie (talk) 11:33, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Oh, yes. The IP editor is reverting random edits from all those he deems to have been against his utility vehicle crusade. I suggest IP block Australia, that should fix it. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 11:58, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- I put a couple of blocks in place, keep us up to date. Thanks for the report.
Zad68
12:36, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I wonder if there is anything further that can be done?
- I'm assuming a huge range block can't work, as blocking an entire ISP's customers is not what wikipedia wants to do.
- Protecting articles might be hard, as this guy will just go to wherever isn't protected.
- What happens next? I'm assuming he will get bored and move on to abusing people on facebook or something equally mature. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 13:16, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Oh. Special:Contributions/49.199.76.170 Spacecowboy420 (talk) 13:17, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- There are things that can be done. Preference is to start with the lowest-impact tools and see if that does the trick.
Zad68
13:23, 7 April 2016 (UTC) - The fundamental problem here is that the world fails to use the correct terminology for utes, instead calling them pickup trucks. Wikipedia should promulgate a new policy mandating all Americans to start using the word ute, as God intended. Until then, we could try an edit filter or semi protection. Or play whack-a-mole. Guy (Help!) 13:31, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I'm sure my suggestion of range blocking all of Australia, would be equally effective. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 13:43, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Wot? Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 14:09, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- IP from Perth. Clearly they are concerned about the impending Australia range block. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 14:14, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- I read this as "please block this IP as well". Was that not what they were saying? Guy (Help!) 14:15, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Wot? Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 14:09, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I'm not sure, perhaps they were saying please block my entire ISP ? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 14:18, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I think the point is a resonable discussion has already been held and most participants including those from Australia and New Zealand (like me) already understand the issues. This discussion appears to have reached some sort of consensus, or at the very least there's no consensus for your changes. Despite that you're edit warring to make these unsupported changes and if you were using an account you'd probably already be indef blocked. But since you're edit warring with multiple IPs, either we have to block the entirety of Perth Optus users or use WP:RBI. From now own don't be surprised if this applies to your comments anywhere including here since you're still block evading, so they can be removed and you ignored, not because there has not been a resonable discussion or because people don't understand or because they are going off point. You're Australian so I guess we can make some allowances for you being slow on the uptake but even so.... Ducks Nil Einne (talk) 16:33, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
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- One point that I was slightly concerned about... Are editors that continue to revert these edits by the IP editor subject to 3RR? I'm quite happy to revert this guy 24/7, if I know that I won't be subject to any sanctions for making 20+ reverts per day on a single article. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:24, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- WP:NOT3RR: "3. Reverting actions performed by banned users, and sockpuppets of banned or blocked users." The IP was blocked for an extensive period of time. IP's are users even if they switch IP. Feel free to revert away. Although you might get bored before they do, I lived in Perth for 3 years and it is singularly the most boring place in the world I have been to. And this is after living in Thetford. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:10, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- One point that I was slightly concerned about... Are editors that continue to revert these edits by the IP editor subject to 3RR? I'm quite happy to revert this guy 24/7, if I know that I won't be subject to any sanctions for making 20+ reverts per day on a single article. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:24, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
NOTE - IP 49xxxx, is a blocked individual merely evading his/her block. Please delete or ignore their posts. GoodDay (talk) 14:54, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Repeated recreation of deleted article
(NonAdmin Closure) The Moon...problem seems to have been solved, at least for the time being. TimothyJosephWood 16:31, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Moonshine7* (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
- Moon7star (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
These users keep recreating an article about Jin from BTS (band) (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jin (singer)). Jin (Bangtan Boys) is their (they claim to be friends) fifth recreation since January. See their talk pages for a record of this. Some were redirected, and some were deleted. They have also both uploaded the same copyvio image on Commons. I think blocks may be needed to stop the constant recreation. Random86 (talk) 13:14, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- G4'd that one.
Zad68
13:27, 7 April 2016 (UTC) - Oh good grief. These people take themselves so seriously. Redirect and protect, is my best suggestion. Guy (Help!) 13:28, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Both Moon... editors blocked.
Zad68
13:33, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
IP vandal editing
Could someone research User:31.149.155.204. There is a trail of questionable edits associated with this IP. Thank you. Mitchumch (talk) 09:07, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Couple of kids mucking about at a school in Alkmaar, NL, it would seem. (non-admin comment) Cheers, Gricehead (talk) 10:50, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Yes, it's a school IP. They've long stopped now. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 14:13, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
Repeated personal attacks and baseless accusations made by Legacypac
I've tried to tell Legacypac that personal attacks are discouraged. It's been enough.
- Calling me a troll
- Calls my edits troll-like, tries to obfuscate it or something, not to mention, I've no idea what in the world temptating means
- Compares me to a pig, I well know it as an idiom as Shaw's quote but it's insult was not lost on me
I've warned him again and again.
Then, he said that I must keep off his talk page, so I did. And one more:
And I've warned him on the RfC page too. HighInBC told me that on my talk page that my conduct was sub-par and that I failed to assume AGF here. Well, the thing is after Legacypac says something like, "It is exceptionally hard to get them deleted at MfD especially for lack of notability, but in mainspace A7 etc can be applied." diff you simply can't assume good faith. (It - Drafts)
Legacypac has a good history of personal attacks too, he got warned for one here.
Some more baseless accusations with no proof:
- Ches & WV are essentially joined at the hip, to the point I wonder if one is not a sock of the other.
- this is just another attempt by WV's meat puppet to attack an editor they disagree with
- WV loves one way interaction bans.
WV - Winkelvi, Ches - Chesnaught555
Not to mention, Legacypac has a chronic problem with opposition, creating revenge threads on ANI for each of them, here, here and here. Also, to top it off, a beautiful piece of ad hominem attitude. Hope I've bored you enough. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 10:05, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Ease up please QEDK. It has been great having you on my side in trying to get some points across, but we are now making progress. Legacypac has received an awful lot of criticism, sorry that you have received the reaction, but let's ease up and let the RfC have some air. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:20, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- @SmokeyJoe: Maybe if you were in my position, you'd say otherwise. We're making progress on the content side of it, yes but that is no reason to take me for granted, I am a human and I see no reason why I am repeatedly attacked even after I tried, again and again, to be the nice person in the whole incident. If he's received criticism, I trust it's for a reason. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 10:41, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Comment QEDK is spot on and I'm glad he provided examples that involve me because I would have done the same. I have been the subject of LP's attacks and sub-par behavior for quite some time. I've asked him to stop, I've warned him he needs to stop. There are others who have done the same and have also been the object of his uncivil behavior. He seems to think he's made of Teflon and continues without care. How long do we, as a community, have to take his abuse? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 11:35, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- QEDK: Your "troll" diff shows LP removing your comment from his talk page; your comment, in full, was "That's purposeful misinterpretation for ya.". Are you saying you were not trolling? The "wrestling a pig" diff shows LP removing his comment where he had written hyper-abbreviated nonsense to mimic your comment written in that style. Doing that is not ideal editor behavior but it's not that bad under the circumstances (why did you write that nonsense?). Johnuniq (talk) 12:39, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- @Johnuniq: I prefer you stop your insinuation, I think everyone (except you i.e.) understood that I wasn't trolling and I've discussed it with specific detail (did you by any chance, miss the edit summaries?). I did not write that nonsense, SmokeyJoe decided to remove vowels from our conversation and Legacypac was well aware of that, since he replied to me when the comment was unmodified and later removed his modified comment. You should know the actual substance of the whole situation before you take on your challenge. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 12:49, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- "SmokeyJoe decided to remove vowels from our conversation" - Huh? - theWOLFchild 09:19, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Here is the conversation in question, and the de-voweling: [246] It does not reflect well on QEDK, and SmokeyJoe violated WP:TPO by altering it. (Hatting might have been in order, but not alteration.) Softlavender (talk) 09:45, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Disemvoweling is a moderation method consistent with TPO. With a bit of humour. The discussion had become unproductive and some moderation may have helped. Yes, hatting might be better, and it even allows the hatter to make a snide or witty comment in the hat header. It was pleasing to see a comment removed, but barbs in edit summaries were not. If either editor wants their vowels back, I stored them offline and can give them back on Tuesday. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:15, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Here is the conversation in question, and the de-voweling: [246] It does not reflect well on QEDK, and SmokeyJoe violated WP:TPO by altering it. (Hatting might have been in order, but not alteration.) Softlavender (talk) 09:45, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Gotta move the vowels every morning to stay regular Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 09:51, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- "SmokeyJoe decided to remove vowels from our conversation" - Huh? - theWOLFchild 09:19, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- You most certainly did make that remark. As well as the other one where you templated him/her. You know very well what he/she meant by temptating. I don't 100% understand your reply - to be fair. SQLQuery me! 13:48, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- I don't think everyone understood that you weren't trolling. It looked to me like you were trying to illicit a negative reaction. What starts out as a friendly conversation quickly devolved into you making accusations of bad faith. Someone interpreting things differently as you is not the same as "purposeful misinterpretation". Once you went to the accusations of bad faith you were reverted, to which you responded to with a template, which was reverted, and you gave another template. Is this a productive means of communication?
- Yes, Legacypac called you some names, but you are hardly without blame here. Attacking somebodies motives is at least as uncivil as name calling. My comment on your user page was meant to prepare you for the fact that both of your behaviour would be looked at if you felt the need to make a post about this here, I am glad you are comfortable with that. HighInBC 13:54, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- @SQL: When did I say that I did not? And my vocabulary is not well enough, so I guess I haven't come across the word, "temptating", maybe you can shed light on the matter. Also, there's a reason I templated him/her, I meant to warn him of the impending result and not to make rash decisions without thought. He, however, did not care.
- @HighInBC: I do not fear scrutiny. If the community thinks I assumed bad faith without reason or that I've been in the wrong multiple times, I shall pay the price. You don't need to keep reminding me of that. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 14:20, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- You seem to very clearly understand the typo "temptating" to mean "templating". For two, in your rant, you made the statement "I did not write that nonsense, SmokeyJoe decided to remove vowels from our conversation and Legacypac was well aware of that, since he replied to me when the comment was unmodified and later removed his modified comment.". It seems to be in reference to one of the diffs I linked - tho I am having a lot of trouble identifying what you are talking about. SQLQuery me! 14:25, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- @Johnuniq: I prefer you stop your insinuation, I think everyone (except you i.e.) understood that I wasn't trolling and I've discussed it with specific detail (did you by any chance, miss the edit summaries?). I did not write that nonsense, SmokeyJoe decided to remove vowels from our conversation and Legacypac was well aware of that, since he replied to me when the comment was unmodified and later removed his modified comment. You should know the actual substance of the whole situation before you take on your challenge. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 12:49, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
I am just wondering what admin action you think should apply to legacy? You assumed bad faith, he called you a name, really it is not something I would block either of you for. It is certainly not something I would block one but not the other for. However I am involved enough in the underlying dispute that another admin can decide what to do, or what not to do. HighInBC 14:26, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- It's not just you - I don't see what action could be taken here that benefits the encyclopedia, and holds to our policies. I guess, really really technically they could both be warned to behave better in the future? SQLQuery me! 14:28, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
I think it calls for just a warning, and since anyone can give a warning here it is. Legacypac, please don't engage in name calling as it is against our policy. QEDK, please don't assume bad faith as it is also against our policy. I really don't know what benefit further action will result in. HighInBC 14:29, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- See this [247]. This is the nonsense I was talking about. Also, I thought temptating was tempting but I could make no connection, thanks for shedding the light.
- Since both of you have been involved in previous disputes (typically on the other side), I prefer to not take my advice regarding this from you. The community can decide. Thanks, though. I believe a one-off wrong can be differentiated from repeated disgraceful behaviour, since 2 admins here clearly can't see the difference. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 15:16, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- I just wish all these cats would stop reporting each other. If they can confine their...what's the word...mutual bitching? sniping? at each other to their talk pages, we'd all be better off. *Sigh* Drmies (talk) 15:10, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Sadly I've been banned from his talk page with a "Buzz off." *sigh* --QEDK (T ☕ C) 15:16, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Maybe you don't understand Drmies, but we've tried to be nice, time and again. Yet, we are here again, despite all the effort, now all wasted on him. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 15:19, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- "we've tried to be nice, time and again." Amen to that. It's as if no one cares about WP:CIVIL anymore, including admins who seem to be no longer taking it seriously (not pointing a finger at you, Drmies, I'm making a general observation). I understand telling editors they need to toughen up and/or just go about their business and not be so sensitive, but in the case of LP (and, frankly, another editor I can think of immediately) it's a continual thumb of the nose from him in the way of what's collegial and civil. He seems to simply no longer care that he's being unbelievably rude and attacking other editors and that behavior is impeding productive contributions, productive discussion, and productive solutions to problems. In other words: it's gone past being annoying, it's disruptive and destructive. My personal opinion about why he does it is because no one is doing anything about it and he's been allowed to continue in that vein repeatedly. Anyone even remotely familiar with behavior management could look at the unwanted, inappropriate behavior and attitude from LP in conjunction with the lack of reaction from admins and say: if there are no consequences, the message being sent is "please continue and escalate". And that's exactly what he's doing. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:39, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not trying to tell anyone to toughen up--but admins (if I can generalize) just get tired of this. The chain of diffs and insults is too complicated and tedious, and maybe iBans all around are the only solution, but then, who would want to enforce iBans, which are notoriously difficult to apply? Drmies (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- "we've tried to be nice, time and again." Amen to that. It's as if no one cares about WP:CIVIL anymore, including admins who seem to be no longer taking it seriously (not pointing a finger at you, Drmies, I'm making a general observation). I understand telling editors they need to toughen up and/or just go about their business and not be so sensitive, but in the case of LP (and, frankly, another editor I can think of immediately) it's a continual thumb of the nose from him in the way of what's collegial and civil. He seems to simply no longer care that he's being unbelievably rude and attacking other editors and that behavior is impeding productive contributions, productive discussion, and productive solutions to problems. In other words: it's gone past being annoying, it's disruptive and destructive. My personal opinion about why he does it is because no one is doing anything about it and he's been allowed to continue in that vein repeatedly. Anyone even remotely familiar with behavior management could look at the unwanted, inappropriate behavior and attitude from LP in conjunction with the lack of reaction from admins and say: if there are no consequences, the message being sent is "please continue and escalate". And that's exactly what he's doing. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:39, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Maybe you don't understand Drmies, but we've tried to be nice, time and again. Yet, we are here again, despite all the effort, now all wasted on him. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 15:19, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Sadly I've been banned from his talk page with a "Buzz off." *sigh* --QEDK (T ☕ C) 15:16, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
I strive for accuracy in communications and Internet troll fits QEDK's actions exactly. I have real life work to do today and wrestling with a pig is not on my priority list. I'm sorry if anything I said was misinterpreted as name calling. No one has ever been banned from my talk page, but I do remove personal attacks and nonsense from it as is my right. Legacypac (talk) 15:28, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- But your accuracy, then, leads to a personal attack. "Internet troll", when applied to a Wikipedia editor, means you don't believe the editor to be contributing to the project in good faith--but ANI is not a good forum if the case is not so easy to make, which I think is what's happening here as well. Drmies (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Legacypac you are often rude and accusatory in your interactions. I can very well see why QEDK has lost patience with you. 217.38.191.252 (talk) 17:42, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- @Drmies you are welcome to your idea of what trolling is, but that is not exactly my idea. My meaning is best summed up in the lead of Internet troll "a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion, often for their own amusement." There are part time trolls and even single troll type edits so saying an edit is trolling or the editor is acting like a troll does not imply all their activity falls into trolling. Legacypac (talk) 17:52, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
For a great laugh, check out WV last userpage edit summary [248] compared to his posts in this thread. Looks like he is calling someone a troll to me. Legacypac (talk) 18:07, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- There is no plausible way that QEDK could be called a troll. He started out complaining about specific actions by Legacypac (which have been reverted, per consensus). Furthermore, I see no plausible reading of LP's comments which does not constitute a stealthy attempt to rewrite policies on drafts. Now that the draft policy discussion is out in the open, QEDK, LP, and others should stop commenting on the former actions, but only comment on current actions (of which QEDK's here and LP's on the guidelines and on user talk pages deserve censure.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:59, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Referring to someone as a troll on one occasion among a ton of edit summaries and talk page discussions where few to none such comments have taken place previously is not a good parallel for you to make, LP. Why? Because you personally attack other editors and call them names frequently. If your habit of doing so were not reality, Drmies wouldn't have pointed out to you what he did above. Indeed, I've never known him to just make such comments willy-nilly or without a good reason - he's very reluctant to make such accusations, in my experience. What's more, for you to say, in essence, "Look, they did it, so it's okay for me to do it, too!" is not a good defense. In fact, it's a very childish response. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 19:04, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- He's been throwing dirt at the people who oppose him since 1997. I count exactly 0 admins who care about this issue when others have been blocked for less. Strange is this world and stranger is the Wikipedia community. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 03:56, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- You seem to have a problem accepting any conclusion other than the one you want. The more you do this, the more the problem looks like being you. No action is going to be taken against Legacypac, other than asking him to stop personalising the dispute and dial down the rhetoric, which has already happened. This much is pretty obvious. If you want to stay here and continue to call for the wrath of Jimbo to be brought down on his head, all that will happen is that you'll be filed in the box of "vindictive and disputatious" and treated accordingly. Both of you are doing what you think is in Wikipedia's best interest, right now you seem to be the vocal one who refuses to accept that the other party is acting in good faith. That's not a good place to be. Your best bet is actually to seek common ground, because right now you are both so fixated on the points of difference that you're never going to stop fighting. If you are genuinely acting in good faith then that should be a serious concern for you. Legacypac being wrong in making some of his statements does not mean you are right in making any or all of yours. You have both personalised the dispute, and admins tend not to draw much of a distinction in such cases - instead we focus on the ones who do not accept the problem and continue to try to fight the battle rather than putting their hands up and calming down. Guy (Help!) 09:18, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- I do not know what to expect now, honestly. I guess it was my mistake that I expected "something" out of this well-intentioned and factually correct thread. Maybe if I called you a troll or a pig thrice, you'd be in a different position. Again, I guess I have incredibly thin skin. *no sarcasm* --QEDK (T ☕ C) 16:39, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- 1997? Wikipedia was created in 2001. Gamaliel (talk) 20:59, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- You seem to have a problem accepting any conclusion other than the one you want. The more you do this, the more the problem looks like being you. No action is going to be taken against Legacypac, other than asking him to stop personalising the dispute and dial down the rhetoric, which has already happened. This much is pretty obvious. If you want to stay here and continue to call for the wrath of Jimbo to be brought down on his head, all that will happen is that you'll be filed in the box of "vindictive and disputatious" and treated accordingly. Both of you are doing what you think is in Wikipedia's best interest, right now you seem to be the vocal one who refuses to accept that the other party is acting in good faith. That's not a good place to be. Your best bet is actually to seek common ground, because right now you are both so fixated on the points of difference that you're never going to stop fighting. If you are genuinely acting in good faith then that should be a serious concern for you. Legacypac being wrong in making some of his statements does not mean you are right in making any or all of yours. You have both personalised the dispute, and admins tend not to draw much of a distinction in such cases - instead we focus on the ones who do not accept the problem and continue to try to fight the battle rather than putting their hands up and calming down. Guy (Help!) 09:18, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- He's been throwing dirt at the people who oppose him since 1997. I count exactly 0 admins who care about this issue when others have been blocked for less. Strange is this world and stranger is the Wikipedia community. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 03:56, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oh good grief, QEDK, you were trolling in all three instances where Legacypac rightly called you out on it (twice on his own talk page). Once again you are accusing Legacypac of what you yourself are actually guilty of [249]. Sooner or later this is going to backfire in a way that you do not like -- even SmokeyJoe agrees with that. Drop this and move on. Softlavender (talk) 08:54, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- A personal attack against me by Legacypac: "Godsy is the time waster bring back a deleted draft and he is uncivil to boot. Misrepresents my actions amd acts like a complete troll. Get a life amd stop stalking my edits Godsy." Edit summary: "ridiculous troll". Legacypac makes comments of this nature often, as is shown above, which is detrimental to civil discussion. They shouldn't be able to behave this way with impunity.—Godsy(TALKCONT) 03:24, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
DrChrissy
It is very common for active editors to check out another editor's contribution history and see what pages they are working on. It only becomes stalking if it is habitual behavior and if an editor uninvolved in an article or discussion repeatedly appears where another editor is working (and if there has been a previous conflict or dispute between the two). The consensus here is that DrCrissy's behavior does not qualify as stalking. I encourage there to be greater tolerance and for there to be a higher bar for complaints made to ANI, so they are only made when there is clear misconduct and not simply when there is behavior one finds annoying. Liz Read! Talk! 21:55, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I hate to do this, but it looks like DrChrissy is on some sort of vendetta against me and has WP:WIKISTALKed me to the page Earth Similarity Index.
For some background, DrChrissy is topic banned from GMO and alt med articles. The reasons for this are the account's combative attitude and the problems related to pseudoscience promotion at those delicate areas. I have tried many times to bury the hatchet with this account, and it just seems impossible. The account seems bound and determined to go on the attack.
It was with some trepidation that I noticed the account followed me to an area I'm working on that is part of my professional expertise.
- The next talkpage edit is fine
- I try to respond civilly
- A vague side-eye
- I try to respond civilly
- Another disagreement with me
- I try to respond civilly
- Seemingly coming to agreement? (YAY!)
- I try to respond civilly
Silence from DrChrissy for two days
- Return and discusses a source in a very obscure journal
- I'm pretty appalled that this source is being used. It is very poor
- Personal attack by DrChrissy against me
- Another personal attack
- I point out what's going on
This is becoming a big distraction, and owing to DrChrissy's topic bans on other pages, I'm wondering if an administrator might get him/her to not attack me on discussion pages?
Thanks,
jps (talk) 18:11, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- One of the collapsible boxes at the top of this page is "how to use this page" This clearly states New threads should carry an informative, neutral title. The title to this thread is clearly not neutral and is deliberately intended to Poison the well. DrChrissy (talk) 18:30, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Comment - I don't see any personal attacks, just a few not-nice remarks and a disagreement about content. The only notable thing is that DrCrissy appears to have followed you to the article (Interaction checker for article and talk page). Is there a pattern of this behavior, or is it a one-off incident? If the former, not sure why this is being brought up here. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:40, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yep, there is a history: DrChrissy wikistalked me to WP:FTN to promote parapsychology and Wikistalked me to a sockpuppet investigation that went nowhere. Note that there is also history between you and I, EvergreenFir.jps (talk) 18:59, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Question Is this canvassing by the OP? DrChrissy (talk) 18:54, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Comment I don't see incivility from either party. Just looks like a content dispute to me and more polite than many. I would regard the plea to Atsme to be canvassing, though. (Littleolive oil (talk) 19:28, 8 April 2016 (UTC))
- Note that Littleolive oil and I have clashed over pseudoscience issues, especially with regards to Transcendental Meditation which this account has been shown in the past to unduly promote. jps (talk) 19:36, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
Unduly promote... Your opinion and how long ago was that. Come on jps don't try and muddy the discussion here by disqualifying the editors who take the time to speak. I tried to be fair here. This comment does no one a disservice but you.(Littleolive oil (talk) 19:44, 8 April 2016 (UTC))
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- Spare me the crocodile tears. I know what your agenda is here and your attempts to be "fair" seem to include making mostly negative statements about me. If this is what you call trying to be fair, I would prefer it if you voluntarily stayed away from conversations that I start which do not involve you. I'll do the same for you. Fair enough? jps (talk) 19:47, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Actually jps my agenda was to look at this and be fair. I looked at the diffs and saw nothing that supported your allegations and supposedly no one else did either. I wanted to be neutral and to assume the best faith with you and Dr Chrissy so suggested you both walk away You asked for input you got it but you mischaracterized that as potential stalking. I have no idea if Dr Chrissy is following you around but there's nothing in the thread that indicates he is. You did canvass another editor. At the same time I suggested you both drop this; that's fair. I could have made other suggestions based on what you've said here; I didn't. I'm sorry you see my actions this way and are reacting with nastiness. I have no fight with you. Actually jps my agenda was to look at this and be fair. I looked at the diffs and saw nothing that supported your allegations and supposedly no one else did either. I wanted to be neutral and to assume the best faith with you and Dr Chrissy so suggested you both walk away You asked for input you got it but you mischaracterized that as potential stalking. I have no idea if Dr Chrissy is following you around but there's nothing in the thread that indicates he is. You did canvass another editor. At the same time I suggested you both drop this; that's fair. I could have made other suggestions based on what you've said here; I didn't. I'm sorry you see my actions this way and are reacting with nastiness. I have no fight with you. If you bring a complaint to a NB you should expect input. And my point here was to check in and see what was going on with Dr Chrissy, who I have commented on before, and not you. You can blame your pointed heading for that which specifically mentions Dr Chrissy but certainly not you.(Littleolive oil (talk) 20:00, 8 April 2016 (UTC))(Littleolive oil (talk) 20:00, 8 April 2016 (UTC))
- Go ahead and show me one diff of where you supported me in the last ten years. I can show you dozens where you opposed me. You should know that we have a history, and there is no way you can be fair towards me since you simply always take the side that opposes me. jps (talk) 20:09, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- This is becoming stranger by the minute. Drop it! I have not interacted with you in a substantial way in years.(Littleolive oil (talk) 20:27, 8 April 2016 (UTC))
- That's just not true. jps (talk) 20:47, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yes it is. Very few if any of those comments were directed at you and were part of a larger discussion. I find jps' cmt deliberately misleading at the very least. While I have nothing more to say in a discussion that deteriorated as this one did; I won't let a misleading cmt like this stand.(Littleolive oil (talk) 17:22, 9 April 2016 (UTC))
- That's just not true. jps (talk) 20:47, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- This is becoming stranger by the minute. Drop it! I have not interacted with you in a substantial way in years.(Littleolive oil (talk) 20:27, 8 April 2016 (UTC))
- Go ahead and show me one diff of where you supported me in the last ten years. I can show you dozens where you opposed me. You should know that we have a history, and there is no way you can be fair towards me since you simply always take the side that opposes me. jps (talk) 20:09, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Actually jps my agenda was to look at this and be fair. I looked at the diffs and saw nothing that supported your allegations and supposedly no one else did either. I wanted to be neutral and to assume the best faith with you and Dr Chrissy so suggested you both walk away You asked for input you got it but you mischaracterized that as potential stalking. I have no idea if Dr Chrissy is following you around but there's nothing in the thread that indicates he is. You did canvass another editor. At the same time I suggested you both drop this; that's fair. I could have made other suggestions based on what you've said here; I didn't. I'm sorry you see my actions this way and are reacting with nastiness. I have no fight with you. Actually jps my agenda was to look at this and be fair. I looked at the diffs and saw nothing that supported your allegations and supposedly no one else did either. I wanted to be neutral and to assume the best faith with you and Dr Chrissy so suggested you both walk away You asked for input you got it but you mischaracterized that as potential stalking. I have no idea if Dr Chrissy is following you around but there's nothing in the thread that indicates he is. You did canvass another editor. At the same time I suggested you both drop this; that's fair. I could have made other suggestions based on what you've said here; I didn't. I'm sorry you see my actions this way and are reacting with nastiness. I have no fight with you. If you bring a complaint to a NB you should expect input. And my point here was to check in and see what was going on with Dr Chrissy, who I have commented on before, and not you. You can blame your pointed heading for that which specifically mentions Dr Chrissy but certainly not you.(Littleolive oil (talk) 20:00, 8 April 2016 (UTC))(Littleolive oil (talk) 20:00, 8 April 2016 (UTC))
- Spare me the crocodile tears. I know what your agenda is here and your attempts to be "fair" seem to include making mostly negative statements about me. If this is what you call trying to be fair, I would prefer it if you voluntarily stayed away from conversations that I start which do not involve you. I'll do the same for you. Fair enough? jps (talk) 19:47, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Comment The "vague side eye" doesn't seem malicious in any way. The "disagreement with you" doesn't seem to contain any form of personal attack. The alleged "first personal attack" is where DrC questions your competence. Looking over the talk page, you do exactly the same in this section to another editor. I also see several other editors disagreeing with you, with one suggesting that a topic ban on you may be necessary to stop you disrupting the page and another pointing out, quite correctly, that if you want to question the info included, that you find a reliable source. Definitely a better move than insisting that you're an expert on the topic. Valenciano (talk) 19:04, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- You misunderstand the conversation. The question is not whether we should include criticism in the article. The question is whether the source that is used to determine a particular formula in the article is reliable considering the numbers have changed. I am an expert on the topic. It is not unreasonable to point that out. jps (talk) 19:09, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
Comment Jps is deliberately misleading the community here. I watch the WP:Fringe theories/Noticeboard. At 00:12, 4 April, jps posted I could use some more eyes from outsiders referring to the Earth Similarity Index article - here[251] Fourteen hours later, at 14:39, 4 April, my first edit to the article was here [252] In other words, I was responding to the request by jps, nor stalking or hounding. This is a vexatious thread and a total waste of the communities time. It should be dealt with accordingly. DrChrissy (talk) 19:19, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
Butting in: I'm a long time proponent of respecting experts on Wikipedia; they are invaluable. Too often they are ignored. Sometime the experts have to declare themselves, but as well, editors have a right to question even experts. In all, I think this could go back to the talk page with a bit more understanding all the way around.(Littleolive oil (talk) 19:25, 8 April 2016 (UTC))
- I encourage people to question me. It helps me understand a lot. What I don't like is when people who offer a bad source and I identify it as a bad source declare that I need to strike that evaluation because I lack competence and therefore they're going to ask for a topic ban. See the issue? jps (talk) 19:28, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not an admin and have probably overstayed my welcome here, but at this point may be try treating each other with more respect. Jps this thread mischaracertizes and Dr Chrissy you threatened. You are both experts in different fields so try putting yourself in the other's boots and let this go. You are both important to Wikpedia . Expert are not that common. I realize I'm being obnoxious despite standing behind my comments so will depart before the rotten tomatoes start flying.(Littleolive oil (talk) 19:39, 8 April 2016 (UTC))
- This does not mischaracterize the situation. DrChrissy shows up and has caused more problems and headaches. Given our history, ask yourself why that might be. That said, I'm happy to bury the hatchet (again), but I find working with DrChrissy tends to involve over-the-top histrionics and I'm fairly sure it's not going to let up. At least this thread will serve as a record if the problems continue. jps (talk) 19:43, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- "At least this thread will serve as a record if the problems continue." I have a strong suspicion that this is the primary motivation for raising this thread against me. Jps has a long history of attempted character assassination against me. He is now obviously disrupting this noticeboard to generate further diffs for his future attempts to continue this. Such manipulation of the community and admins should not be tolerated. DrChrissy (talk) 20:35, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- It seems you just want to fight. I don't understand it. I have seen zero olive branches extended from you. I'll try one more time: let's be nice to each other, okay? jps (talk) 20:50, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Why should I offer an olive branch to someone who behaves in the way you do by raising this fallacious and disruptive thread against me? You continually try to discredit me. Even your opening title of this thread which has now been edited (thanks to the editor that did that) was clearly an attempt to discredit me. I have offered olive branches in the past to other editors and had extremely good working relationships subsequently. But you are way too far away from that yet. DrChrissy (talk) 21:04, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- It seems you just want to fight. I don't understand it. I have seen zero olive branches extended from you. I'll try one more time: let's be nice to each other, okay? jps (talk) 20:50, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- "At least this thread will serve as a record if the problems continue." I have a strong suspicion that this is the primary motivation for raising this thread against me. Jps has a long history of attempted character assassination against me. He is now obviously disrupting this noticeboard to generate further diffs for his future attempts to continue this. Such manipulation of the community and admins should not be tolerated. DrChrissy (talk) 20:35, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- This does not mischaracterize the situation. DrChrissy shows up and has caused more problems and headaches. Given our history, ask yourself why that might be. That said, I'm happy to bury the hatchet (again), but I find working with DrChrissy tends to involve over-the-top histrionics and I'm fairly sure it's not going to let up. At least this thread will serve as a record if the problems continue. jps (talk) 19:43, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not an admin and have probably overstayed my welcome here, but at this point may be try treating each other with more respect. Jps this thread mischaracertizes and Dr Chrissy you threatened. You are both experts in different fields so try putting yourself in the other's boots and let this go. You are both important to Wikpedia . Expert are not that common. I realize I'm being obnoxious despite standing behind my comments so will depart before the rotten tomatoes start flying.(Littleolive oil (talk) 19:39, 8 April 2016 (UTC))
(e/c)::You most certainly do not encourage people to question you. The very first diff you presented against me in this thread is here.[253] You described this as "The first edit is an obvious attempt to needle me". It was not. It was a perfectly civil edit to indicate that what you stated was not true under all circumstances. Your bringing this thread to AN/I is disruptive, your misleading the community is disruptive, your canvassing is disruptive and your continued attempts to character assassinate me are disruptive. I suggest admins start looking at action against you, and take into account your rather extensive block log. DrChrissy (talk) 19:46, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- You know very well what you are doing. The attempts to undermine my good faith efforts to clean up a rather problematic part of the encyclopedia are plainly seen in the diffs provided above. I replied civilly to many of your concerns, even those which were, frankly, uninformed. The response I got was over-the-top demands that I delete my comments. You're trying to WP:BAIT and it is extremely tiresome. It would be better if you just stayed away from me. I'll be happy to return the favor. jps (talk) 19:51, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Comment This appears this is a tactic to win disputes. I participated in the same ESI discussion and log in to find jps has filed an ANI report against me: James J. Lambden is wikistalking me. I believe his last comment implies I’m the IP editor as well. Apparently everyone who disagrees with him/her has an ulterior motive. Their tactics here (as with the White Pride article) have made participation unpleasant enough that I’m no longer interested - so credit where it's due. James J. Lambden (talk) 20:14, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Involved comment: are you going to accuse me of stalking you too? I found AfDs that seemed dubious, then I found a shitstorm involving you and everything ESI/PHL-related, you survived my edit warring report unscathed except for a warning from EdJohnston by "extending an olive branch" to use the terms you used in the report, but in the meanwhile, you open ANI threads against other similarly involved editors and still accuse me of "standing in the way of Wikipedia editing" and alleging that I have a "vested interest" in the articles, nevermind that you didn't need to indirectly question my competence because you did it directly. At this point, I really start to question whether you are an WP:EXPERT who's here to improve the encyclopedia, despite the "expert attitude", or someone who is WP:NOTHERE except to get in trouble and try to get other people who disagree with your methods into trouble. I am this close to suggesting a WP:BOOMERANG. LjL (talk) 21:05, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Why are you picking up the WP:STICK again? I notice that you seem to be discussing me with people outside of Wikipedia, right? Did I do anything to upset you after our last discussion on the Edit Warring board? Yes, I found your contributions at that time to be problematic (and still find those particular contributions to be blinkered). No, I am not going to accuse you of wikistalking me as we have no history. Now if you start following me around to different places, then I might start to wonder. jps (talk) 21:11, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Ironically, this is the first content dispute I can recall involving DrChrissy where his editing does not seem to be problematic. It is quite possible he followed jps there, and I encourage other admins to check for evidence of wikistalking going forward, but this really doesn't look like anything actionable, for once. Guy (Help!) 22:11, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Thank you for this JzG/Guy. However, I would like to point out this is not a content dispute. Jps has raised this thread with totally false, vexatious accusations about my behaviour. His bringing this to the noticeboard must be considered and dealt with in this way, not as a matter of content dispute. DrChrissy (talk) 22:22, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- As a matter of record, jps is well capable of digging his own grave and has done so numerous times before. Some of us are old and cynical and have long memories, we are not too bad at joining the dots. Your best bet is to be the better person, be confident hat you have established your innocence of the charges as presented, and leave it to the janotiros to tidy up the mess. Guy (Help!) 22:46, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks - will do. DrChrissy (talk) 22:56, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- As a matter of record, jps is well capable of digging his own grave and has done so numerous times before. Some of us are old and cynical and have long memories, we are not too bad at joining the dots. Your best bet is to be the better person, be confident hat you have established your innocence of the charges as presented, and leave it to the janotiros to tidy up the mess. Guy (Help!) 22:46, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for this JzG/Guy. However, I would like to point out this is not a content dispute. Jps has raised this thread with totally false, vexatious accusations about my behaviour. His bringing this to the noticeboard must be considered and dealt with in this way, not as a matter of content dispute. DrChrissy (talk) 22:22, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I went through all of the evidence for myself, and I came to largely the same conclusion that Guy came to. The only point that I can add is that the source that DrChrissy added, that so concerned jps, appears to be one published out of Cuba. I am not knowledgeable about source material in astronomy, but perhaps this was in fact a low quality source. But nonetheless, I think that DrChrissy's conduct was just fine, and that jps overreacted. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:18, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Multiple Personal Attacks by User:Garuk Gar, one of the many many many socks of User:Cow Cleaner 5000.
Is there anything more that can be done about the many offensive edits by this user and her virtually unlimited supply of socks? See these (ahem) "contributions" which are all personal attacks against myself and multiple editors and admin. She has created more than 100 socks[254][255] to pursue her conspiracy agenda. She also seem to have an unhealthy obsession with Justin Anthony Knapp, bordering on stalking. Could someone at WP contact her ISP maybe? Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 18:18, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- PS: I assume CC5K is a "her" due to the user's self-declaration of that gender[256] and her rant about embracing feminism as the "one way forward".Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 18:18, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Unlikely since that same diff says My husband Justin Anthony Knapp is very upset over this article yet CC5K constantly attacks Knapp as a terrorist... EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:34, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Actually, Knapp says otherwise on his talk page... "CowCleaner comes back intermittently to say something about how great I am and how a manga magazine is a terrorist organization." Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 19:43, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Unlikely since that same diff says My husband Justin Anthony Knapp is very upset over this article yet CC5K constantly attacks Knapp as a terrorist... EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:34, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- PS: I assume CC5K is a "her" due to the user's self-declaration of that gender[256] and her rant about embracing feminism as the "one way forward".Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 18:18, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Short of revert, block, catalog, and then ignore, there isn't much else that can be done. A range block is impossible as the editor uses multiple open proxies to wage their little campaign of disruption, misinformation, and harassment. The only outstanding problem is when an administration is too lazy read the preexisting case file on this individual and only gives a short term block, even after being directed to the case file. —Farix (t | c) 16:21, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Thanks Farix. Appreciate the response. Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 17:30, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
IP not making productive edits at templates
How should I handle this? 109.108.250.225 (talk · contribs) has been making drastic changes over several templates and articles and has been warned about it several times already [257][258][259]. Some categories are outright bizarre [260] (was warned about it by Jim1138. His edits at templates are also strange [261]. Since I'm only familiar with the NKR template, I can't comment on the other templates he has edited. Perhaps Laberkiste can help me out here? At any rate, would appreciate it if something could done about this. It's causing quite a lot of stability. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:35, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
I will look into the recent edits of the IP and rollback every bad one...There are so many edits and some template edits are really fragmented... --Laber□T 19:38, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- LOL. try to read more. 1) [262] It was not removal, only subtitle was added, see here apologies from user. 2) Second edit [263] because eight Italian swimmers were among the victims. 3) Here it was removed the unsourced information. Ukraine is not a "military aid" for any party. Navbox used for navigation between articles about topic, not between countries. 109.108.250.225 (talk) 19:47, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- I would take this to the dispute resolution noticeboard. I also advise the user of IP 109.108.250.225 to try to make one large instead of many small edits to templates (use the sandbox if possible). --Laber□T 19:57, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Don't advise me such bad instructions. No such rules. I will do so many edits as I want. 109.108.250.225 (talk) 19:59, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- This response is not appropriate, nor is it constructive to the project and what we are trying to accomplish here. Please do not engage in battleground conduct. Thank you. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 20:05, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yes? Show me the rules which required "to make one large instead of many small edits" (btw where was "many small edits" by me?!). How many? Where? Very strange claim! 109.108.250.225 (talk) 20:08, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- It's just common good practice to do, as it makes your edits easier to read by other editors. It's not by any means required - it appears that they are simply asking if you wouldn't mind helping them out and doing that in the future. When you respond with statements such as, "I will do so many edits as I want", it demonstrates battleground conduct and an unwillingness to collaborate or work with other editors to build an encyclopedia. It doesn't solve anything or make things easier on anybody. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 20:14, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- It also makes things easier for you, because you don't need to switch between pages so often. It was just a suggestion. We still need some other editors to look after this case and gather more information, from my side there are no accusations against you or the user who created this thread at this time. --Laber□T 20:23, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Again where "many small edits" was done by me? I don't understand. Or number of edits is limited? 50 per day totally? 100? I have edit many different pages with useful edits. Ok, I will stop, good bye finally. Thank you both for critics instead of thanking. 109.108.250.225 (talk) 20:27, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I'll let EtienneDolet and Laberkiste continue explaining their concerns and I'll let them show you specific diff examples. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 20:29, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- What I'm referring to is a) the number of minor edits in a row, on a single page and b) the number of identical minor edits on multiple similar pages in a short time. This is a good example, first of six small edits in a row. On Template:Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict, you made eleven edits in four days. Many of your edits follow a pattern that makes me worried they might serve the purpose of flooding your contribution log. See this for example. --Laber□T 22:18, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- 11 edits in 4 days = ~3 edits in 1 day! And 6 edits in 3 days?! "MANY EDITS" LOL. 109.108.250.225 (talk) 23:51, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oshwah and Laberkiste: I've told the IP over and over again that the NKR template itself shouldn't have sources and that he will find the sources at the corresponding articles. Yet, the IP continues to edit-war with no stopping in sight. It can't go on like this forever. Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:22, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- EtienneDolet - Well at this point, the user has been already given a final warning, appears to be refusing to help address the concerns outlined here and make corrective change to the way that he/she is modifying templates, and is continuing to make changes to templates in the exact same manner that is causing the concerns. I think that a block is justified if it's shown that these template changes are disruptive and/or violate policy. Wait for an admin to step in and give his/her observation here; a fresh pair of eyes is always a good thing. I think you've done all that you can to try and fix the issue, EtienneDolet. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 01:33, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oshwah and Laberkiste: I've told the IP over and over again that the NKR template itself shouldn't have sources and that he will find the sources at the corresponding articles. Yet, the IP continues to edit-war with no stopping in sight. It can't go on like this forever. Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:22, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- 11 edits in 4 days = ~3 edits in 1 day! And 6 edits in 3 days?! "MANY EDITS" LOL. 109.108.250.225 (talk) 23:51, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- What I'm referring to is a) the number of minor edits in a row, on a single page and b) the number of identical minor edits on multiple similar pages in a short time. This is a good example, first of six small edits in a row. On Template:Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict, you made eleven edits in four days. Many of your edits follow a pattern that makes me worried they might serve the purpose of flooding your contribution log. See this for example. --Laber□T 22:18, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'll let EtienneDolet and Laberkiste continue explaining their concerns and I'll let them show you specific diff examples. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 20:29, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- I don't see what the IP editor is supposed to have done wrong. One would like to know, for instance, why this here edit was somehow worth a final warning for disruption--not leaving an edit summary is worthy of a block? Iryna Harpy has now written them up for their edits to Timeline of the war in Donbass, but there I see decent edit summaries that indicate an argument. Now, one can argue that the IP is edit warring a bit much, but by the same token, they get reverted a bit much and frequently without any good reason. Drmies (talk) 01:46, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Drmies The IP claims that there are no sources for military aid on the template, when I have repeatedly told them ([264][265][266]) that they can easily find these sources on the corresponding articles. It's all right there on the Nagorno-Karabakh War article. I simply don't get what the IP wants to achieve. Should we cite the wlinks on the template page? Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:59, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- I think what they wanted to achieve here was also to remove the flags/countries, saying that templates like this are for navigation between articles and not countries. I mean, what's the point of linking an article about a country? (See WP:OVERLINKING.) (I don't buy their argument of "no sources", which they repeated on the talk page.) You reverted them twice there and I guess they "won" because you didn't revert again--what I'm trying to say with that is, first of all, good for you, but second, it always takes two to tango. Yes, I wish they reverted less and talked more, that's a fact--but some others in this section have reverted without explanation. Drmies (talk) 02:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Well I don't want to sit here guessing what they meant. I would much rather discuss it over the talk page in a more elaborate and comprehensive fashion. The issue isn't merely the removal of flags, it is the removal of relevant content which would interest readers. And there's nothing wrong with the infobox being a guideline for a navigation box. At any rate, I warned them about the edit-warring. Let's hope it stops. Étienne Dolet (talk) 03:02, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- I think what they wanted to achieve here was also to remove the flags/countries, saying that templates like this are for navigation between articles and not countries. I mean, what's the point of linking an article about a country? (See WP:OVERLINKING.) (I don't buy their argument of "no sources", which they repeated on the talk page.) You reverted them twice there and I guess they "won" because you didn't revert again--what I'm trying to say with that is, first of all, good for you, but second, it always takes two to tango. Yes, I wish they reverted less and talked more, that's a fact--but some others in this section have reverted without explanation. Drmies (talk) 02:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Removing other categories relevant to the DAB page without discussion (over and over) is not helpful to readers. If the IP believes it should only be categorised under timelines, they should have made an attempt to discuss it rather than edit warring. Being reverted by several editors should be enough of an alert that it needs to be discussed. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 02:04, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Drmies The IP claims that there are no sources for military aid on the template, when I have repeatedly told them ([264][265][266]) that they can easily find these sources on the corresponding articles. It's all right there on the Nagorno-Karabakh War article. I simply don't get what the IP wants to achieve. Should we cite the wlinks on the template page? Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:59, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
82.30.110.20 impersonating another editor
82.30.110.20 made this edit to my Talk page, using the signature of Diannaa. The same editor overwrote my comment on Diannaa's Talk page. Edits speak for themselves. 32.218.45.217 (talk) 21:50, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- With the events of today, if someone like you can behave as you have done without consequence, I am seriously beyond caring. 82.30.110.20 (talk) 21:59, 8 April 2016 (UTC) 32.218.45.217
- Looking at 82.30.110.20's comment history, he's pissed that you reverted one of his edits and is throwing a tantrum.142.105.159.60 (talk) 16:49, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Block reviews
I blocked Threegoodmonkeys (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) as WP:NOTHERE, two edits only, both blatant trolling, and if this is not a sockpuppet then I am a threegoodmonkeys' uncle.
I also blocked Hendersonmj (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) for more complex treasons, which should nonetheless be readily obvious from a quick review of his contributions. I have been watching Energy Catalyzer ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) for some time, it is a device claimed by its inventor (a convicted fraudster) to generate substantial amounts of essentially free energy; there is a crossover with cold fusion and a long history of promotion of claims which are generally reckoned by the reality based community to have no merit. Given [267] I'd have thought this wasn't in the least controversial as a block-and-revert, but one editor has demanded that I recant so I bring it here for review. Guy (Help!) 21:51, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Without even giving my thoughts regarding their possible sock puppet connections here, I will say that both of these blocks are completely justified, were made with good judgment and cause, as were well within Wikipedia's blocking policy. I agree that they are suspicious per this edit. Not only a day after Hendersonmj was blocked, Threegoodmonkeys was created. Just 11 minutes later, the edit above was made (which was only the user's second edit). Is it a "smoking bullet", such as having similar words, habits, articles, MO, etc? No. But it does yield reasonable suspicion? Yes. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 01:43, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- We block people for WP:TREASON now? Heh, all hail His Royal Majesty Jimbo the First, Ruler over the English Wikipedia, Emperor over all language colonies, projects, and metas and Lord of Wikia.--v/r - TP 03:33, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Only petty treason you know! Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 07:20, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Violates BLOCKNO - What JzG forgot to mention is that he is not only watching Energy Catalyzer, but also editing it, edit warring on it, and discussing it on the talk page from a strong POV [268] [269] [270] [271] [272]. It was only after the block that the blocked user outed themselves as a sockpuppet. WP:INVOLVED and WP:BLOCK are pretty clear that admins don't get to take control of content of an article that they have decided is not "reality based" and block users who get in their way. I would expect that admins doing this repeatedly might find themselves desysoped at some point. I would also point out that while comments about Rossi's past criminality are not WP:BLP violations, speculation that he is still committing crimes blatantly violates WP:BLPCRIME.- MrX 11:43, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yep; two edits there in the last six months... Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 11:58, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- So involvement "expires" after 6 months now? I must have missed that memo. Pretty obvious that Guy is involved here - while these may have been good blocks, he should not have made them himself. Fyddlestix (talk) 13:25, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- I am "involved" in preventing long-term abuse of Wikipedia by a convicted fraudster. Guy (Help!) 17:19, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- There's no need to tie an admin's hands because they're familiar with a topic. It's unnecessary bureaucracy to have to call in another admin for such obvious cases. clpo13(talk) 17:27, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- So involvement "expires" after 6 months now? I must have missed that memo. Pretty obvious that Guy is involved here - while these may have been good blocks, he should not have made them himself. Fyddlestix (talk) 13:25, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- MrX - I'm honestly a bit torn here. First of all, I will acknowledge your response, your concerns, and the diffs that you provided. While the diffs do show JzG's involvement with the article, they were made back in August and September 2015. It also appears that any opposition to Hendersonmj's edits would be content and source-related (I'm going to read through each of Hendersonmj's changes again). Do edits made six months ago still consider a user involved? My thought is that it depends on the situation. My first gut reaction when it comes to this situation is no, but I'll admit that I'm not overly familiar with the "history" of this policy and what has been determined in the past. However, if I were in JzG's shoes, I probably would have played it safe and had someone else do the blocking (because you never know). ;-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 17:27, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Nothing would give me greater pleasure than for other admins to take an interest in this article. It's been a problem for a looooong time and it's heating up (no pun intended) because Rossi is now suing an investor who considers he failed to prove his claims. We are likely to see a fair bit of SPA action there in coming months. Guy (Help!) 19:49, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- MrX - I'm honestly a bit torn here. First of all, I will acknowledge your response, your concerns, and the diffs that you provided. While the diffs do show JzG's involvement with the article, they were made back in August and September 2015. It also appears that any opposition to Hendersonmj's edits would be content and source-related (I'm going to read through each of Hendersonmj's changes again). Do edits made six months ago still consider a user involved? My thought is that it depends on the situation. My first gut reaction when it comes to this situation is no, but I'll admit that I'm not overly familiar with the "history" of this policy and what has been determined in the past. However, if I were in JzG's shoes, I probably would have played it safe and had someone else do the blocking (because you never know). ;-) ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 17:27, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- @Oshwah:. The reason JzG is involved and should not be blocking people he's in content disputes with and protecting the article for a year, is not only because he's edited the article, but also because he has an expressed bias about the subject, and apparently a loathing of its inventor. Admins don't get to skate around policy or WP:BLP policy just because they really really feel strongly about a subject.- MrX 20:11, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- MrX - I completely understand what constitutes being "involved" as an Administrator, and I agree that he would have been seen as "involved" if he had made those edits you listed a week ago, or maybe even a month ago and then performed the block on Hendersonmj today - especially if it would have gained him an upper hand in a dispute, argument, or with contributing or editing the article. However, it's been six months since he's last contributed to the article whatsoever (assuming the diffs listed were the latest edits that he made to the article/talk page). Is he currently in any content disputes with anyone involving the Energy Catalyzer article and at this very time? Is there something that can show that his blocks were done in order to gain an upper hand in a dispute that is currently occurring? Again, I admit that I haven't observed enough discussions to where I fully gauge how long or when an Administrator would cease becoming "involved" with an article, but my first reaction here is to ask these questions and then base my judgment off of these answers. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 20:32, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Oshwah:. The reason JzG is involved and should not be blocking people he's in content disputes with and protecting the article for a year, is not only because he's edited the article, but also because he has an expressed bias about the subject, and apparently a loathing of its inventor. Admins don't get to skate around policy or WP:BLP policy just because they really really feel strongly about a subject.- MrX 20:11, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- JzG was completely upfront about his minor involvement (note the lowercase) in this article and I don't see a case here that the blocks were bad ones in any other respect. We have WP:IAR for this very reason, to ignore the strictest interpretation of policy subclauses in order to do something that obviously benefits the encyclopedia. Let's remember we have 2-300 active admins and 5 million articles. We can't rely on getting someone else to do it in every case. Gamaliel (talk) 20:25, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Interesting. Does it go without saying that you also believe that IAR applies to the BLP policy that people constantly beat their chests about? - MrX 20:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- The whole point of IAR is to employ common sense in specific unforeseen cases that don't fit into strict policy boxes. So I can't say what would be an appropriate case until I see it, otherwise we'd just put that into the policy. If there's a BLP issue here, please let us know what it might be. Gamaliel (talk) 20:53, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks, I think I already understand the principle and practicality of IAR. Regarding BLP, evidently you didn't trouble yourself to read any of the diffs that I already provide upthread, such as:
- The whole point of IAR is to employ common sense in specific unforeseen cases that don't fit into strict policy boxes. So I can't say what would be an appropriate case until I see it, otherwise we'd just put that into the policy. If there's a BLP issue here, please let us know what it might be. Gamaliel (talk) 20:53, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Interesting. Does it go without saying that you also believe that IAR applies to the BLP policy that people constantly beat their chests about? - MrX 20:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- "Yes, he [Rossi] has a patent on a water heater. No doubt this will help him raise more capital, using bait-and-switch."
- "I think it is very useful that you have publicly associated yourself with Radin, Weiler, Sheldrake and sundry other cranks"
- "Getting people to throw money down the drain is Rossi's business model, the fact that it happened again does not affect the unproven status of the device or Rossi's history of fraud and unsubstantiated claims."
- I look forward to hearing about how these comments improve the encyclopedia and how they are not indicative of an inappropriate bias for anyone using admin tools anywhere near this article.- MrX 21:18, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- You're right, I apologize for forgetting that part of the discussion. I don't want to encourage such comments but I don't see anything particularly problematic about them, sorry. According to our article on Rossi, he was responsible for a series of frauds, including a notorious cold fusion fraud. The encyclopedia should not be used to lambaste criminals but we can point out that a person who committed fraud is a person who committed fraud if it is relevant to the discussion. Gamaliel (talk) 21:30, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Right. Rossi is a convicted fraudster, that is a matter of established fact. It is also an established fact that he has used several successive announcements of funding to imply legitimacy. I encourage any admins to look through the talk page history - there are two kinds of people promoting the e-cat, cold fusionists and Rossi believers. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Cold fusion is relevant, as is the pseudoscience case. I draw a distinction between newbies appearing at the talk page to tell us we're completely wrong and Rossi's device will save the world, and people who appear and pitch right in to editing content, repeating prior rejected edits, and showing knowledge of Wikipedia jargon. I don't think that is unreasonable. Guy (Help!) 09:48, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
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- These were both good blocks. The second would not have been if it hadn't been promptly brought here for review. —Cryptic 20:42, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
JzG's behavior has fallen short of the standard's expected of both editor and adminstrator; this rollback style edit is not minor [273] and does not meet the criteria for use at Wikipedia:Rollback#When_to_use_rollback. His block of Hendersonmj, with no prior discussion on article or user talk, is both hasty and involved. The fact the Cold Fusion has been crap since Fleischmann and Pons conned politicians and the media in 1989 is not a valid reason to violate policy; Wikipedia standard is reliable sources, not truth (see, for example, Chemtrails and numerous articles on inexplicably notable people -- names omitted per BLP but think so-called "reality TV" ...).. WP:IAR is properly understood as not letting the technical wording of policies interfere doing the commonsense thing, not an excuse to skip necessary steps in dispute resolution. WP:AGF and all that, and no, no one is suggesting wiki suicide, it's really just not that important an article. The notion that admins are hard to find is not supported by evidence; a recent AN request had a wait time of only 21 minutes; there was nothing so urgent requiring action on Energy Catalyzer in an accelerated time frame. I'd like to see a reversal of the Henderonmj block and a commitment from JzG to avoid misuse of rollback in the future. NE Ent 23:14, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- I always enjoy your idiosyncratic interpretations of policy. I rolled the edit back because it was blatantly promotional. Remember the context: a "free energy" cold fusion device that is being promoted by a convicted fraudster. Dispute resolution is fine for genuinely new accounts (cf. recent AE against Conzar, a sincere but misguided newbie). This looks like a sockpuppet (or a meatpuppet, given the known and documented off-wiki collaboration of cold fusionists).
- With the exception of the lawsuit, which was under discussion on Talk, the material added was largely material that has been the subject of extensive prior debate, and rejected as synthesis. There is a patent, therefore it works! Or not, since British Rail had a patent for a flying saucer powered by nuclear explosions.
- If any admin wants to replace the block with a DS notice and warning then that's fine. Or if the consensus of uninvolved admins is that I was wrong, then I will unblock and apologise. I have no problem with people asking me to post a block for review, I have no problem with accepting the results of any independent review (we can of course ignore the voices of the usual griefers). Guy (Help!) 07:59, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- As usual, NE Ent is encouraging trouble for the encyclopedia with completely unrealistic views about what others should do. Anyone wanting to offer advice about how to prevent fringe pushers subverting articles should spend a few months helping stem the never-ending inflow first. Johnuniq (talk) 12:24, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- both blocks were good. i should note that i was one of the targets of threemonkey's monkeying around. also kudos to Guy for this. Jytdog (talk) 18:18, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Edit War at WP:NPA
There seems to be an ongoing edit war at Wikipedia:No personal attacks. See the history. I have preemptively protected the page, as edit warring over a policy page is just not tolerable, in my view. I would welcome review of my action, but more importantly i think additional previously uninvolved participants at WT:NPA might help achieve consensus and avoid further edit warring. DES (talk) 22:00, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- ...everyone on one side of that war was already blocked by the time you protected. Semi would probably have been enough. —Cryptic 22:06, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
Incivility and disruptive behavior by Lugnuts
I was checking new pages using AWB and I made a minor change in one of the articles. To my surprise, the reported user reverted my minor edit without saying why. It was a simple issue but I had the question why my revert were reverted. So I started a talk page discussion and asked him explain the reasoning behind his revert. He referred to the rules regarding "how to use AWB". However, it was surprising for me to see a minor change (that makes zero change to the appearance of the article and only removes some excess spacing) reverted. Anyway, in response he made ad hominem comments and spoke in a rough manner by saying "you think every one else is wrong", " you're having trouble understanding" and "Pathetic".
I also removed an external link of the article per WP:ELNO but he again reverted me. When I explained the points on the talk page, he again kept on accusing me and making uncivil comments. I kindly asked him to be polite on his talk page. But he removed my comment (no problem, that was his own talk page) and also removed all of the exchanged comments from the article talk page and reverted me again when I restored the material and called me a troll in his edit summaries.
His block log shows that, among other issues, he had been blocked twice for "Personal attacks or harassment" by FreeRangeFrog and Stephan Schulz and was unblocked by Floquenbeam after his apology provided that he "tone it down" (which he fails to do now!). I think he has competence issues. Thanks. Mhhossein (talk) 07:27, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Sure sounds like Lugnuts. Don't expect anyone to do anything about it. He's learned to game ANI too well. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 08:28, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- It appears he/she is aware of this thread. SQLQuery me! 09:19, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Mhhossein: Please do not use automated tools in a manner that irritates other editors. By all means fiddle around with whitespace if you like, but if you are just doing drive-by edits like that and are reverted, it is best to ignore the article. There are plenty of other pages where you can adjust whitespace, and there is no need to argue about it. At any rate, going to ANI over such an argument is not productive. You may be irritated that your concerns were not addressed in a manner that satisfies you, but it seems fair to assume that the other party feels the same way. Just walk away, find another article, and don't seize on other trivia like removing an external link. How do you think that comes across? Remember that this is a collaborative community. Johnuniq (talk) 10:14, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Johnuniq: I think I were not able to focus on the main issue regarding the reported user. His competence issues are much more irritating. As I said he made attack and uncivil comments. He also removed the contents of the article talk page and reverted me when I restored them. He should not have done that, should he? The one who can't handle such a simple issue and makes such comments, can't contribute in more challenging discussions. Mhhossein (talk) 10:28, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- By the way, I did not "seize on other trivia like removing an external link". I did not remove the link furthermore. Mhhossein (talk) 10:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Mhhossein,
aside fromI agree the Iran comment [was] way out of line,Lugnuts has acted within policy in all of this, so you'd best move on and drop it. Evenhowever you admitted that the removal of the EL was not necessary, and please don't insult our intelligence by claiming that removal wasn't seizing on other trivia. Move on; lay off the article and hopefully off of AWB; withdraw this ANI filing before it boomerangs on you. This is an extremely silly content dispute with a couple of inopportune words added in.Softlavender (talk) 10:51, 9 April 2016 (UTC): edited 12:39, 9 April 2016 (UTC)- This is absolutely not a content dispute. Based on what you said, Lugnuts has acted within policy by 1) insisting on blanking the talk page of the article, 2) saying "Carry on with whatever the f**k it is you do." 3) making ad hominem comments. 4) making similar uncivil comments. Are you serious? What you simply called a silly content dispute accompanied by "couple of inopportune words" is similar to what made him blocked twice before. He is not able to just tone it down! Forget about the content, the behavioral issues are being discussed here. Mhhossein (talk) 11:55, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- I missed the fact that he blanked the article talk page. (I've re-reverted it now.) Yes, this does not look good. It looks like Lugnuts is having a meltdown and is gunning for a block. Softlavender (talk) 12:16, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Having read the argument on the article talk page, the content does appear more appropriate for a user talk page. There's no real discussion about improving the specific article in question, it's more two editors finding fault in each other's actions and Mhhossein's use of AWB.--Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 15:24, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- I missed the fact that he blanked the article talk page. (I've re-reverted it now.) Yes, this does not look good. It looks like Lugnuts is having a meltdown and is gunning for a block. Softlavender (talk) 12:16, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- This is absolutely not a content dispute. Based on what you said, Lugnuts has acted within policy by 1) insisting on blanking the talk page of the article, 2) saying "Carry on with whatever the f**k it is you do." 3) making ad hominem comments. 4) making similar uncivil comments. Are you serious? What you simply called a silly content dispute accompanied by "couple of inopportune words" is similar to what made him blocked twice before. He is not able to just tone it down! Forget about the content, the behavioral issues are being discussed here. Mhhossein (talk) 11:55, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Mhhossein,
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- Comment: There's an ongoing discussion on my talkpage regarding this issue. Mhhossein (talk) 14:38, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Comment this is all part of his never ending angry crusade to engage in coitus with the AWB tool. Legacypac (talk) 15:36, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Lugnuts may have a point when it comes to AWB edits that don't change the rendering of a page. However, he should be able to defend his reverts and respond to criticism without flying off the handle. The fact that he apparently hasn't learned his lesson from past blocks is concerning. clpo13(talk) 17:30, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Is there logic in reverting an edit you think is pointless? Is that not even more pointless and hypocritical? Legacypac (talk) 17:38, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- No, it seems Lugnuts is reverting to prove some point about AWB, which is why it's even more important for him to be civil when someone asks him about those reverts. The original edits may be unnecessary, but I agree that reverting is likewise unnecessary. clpo13(talk) 18:32, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- The initial edit by Mhhossein sure was mostly useless and it better be avoided, more so if done in some automated way. But generalising about "AWB users" and "Iranian people" and then using that to attack another user should not be taken lightly. We all do and say silly things once in a while (I do...) and that should not be cause for much trouble, but if it is frequent, it needs more than a warning. Apparently it is the case with Lugnuts, according to some of the previous comments and to the fact that the name sounded familiar from this venues. - Nabla (talk) 19:56, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- I blanked that talk page before I saw that there was discussion over it; Ponyo, as usual, is right--in my opinion. It's not related to article improvement--it couldn't be, since the edit was inconsequential, and the revert therefore warranted. Mhhossein, sorry, but that's the fact. I don't think Lugnuts is cruisin' for anything though, and Lugnuts you know I love you like my new favorite non-stick skillet, but that Iran remark was just totally asinine and you really should apologize for it. As for the rest: my dear Mhhossein, I think Lugnuts's explanation should have sufficed the first time around. Also, it's rough to be reverted, believe me, I know. Let's move on. Drmies (talk) 02:23, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Drmies: But as the others said and as I tried to tell him while discussing the points, his revert was something surprising and unnecessary. Anyway, @Ponyo: how do you think discussing the "keeping" or "removing" of an external link was not improving and/or at least related to the article? All in all, his incivilities, which has to be stopped, was much more irritating! Mhhossein (talk) 05:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- Do you acknowledge that all this fuss arose because your original edit was reverted? And your original edit was to fiddle with whitespace in a new article (24 minutes after it had been created)? Are your views and feelings so important that all this time can be wasted because you don't like having your edits reverted, even when they are trivial? Please learn from what independent editors have said here—drop the matter and find another article to work on. This is a collaborative community and we each need to make an effort to get on with others, even if they are prickly. You may believe that the external link is a separate issue, but no one else does—it was obvious retaliation to leave your mark on the short stub and to let the other editor know that you won't take being reverted without a fight. Johnuniq (talk) 12:32, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- Mhhossein, you clearly don't understand something about AWB: Never, ever make a whitespace-only edit with it. People hate that; it is extremely rude behavior. Go to the Skip tab and check General skip option "Only whitespace" so it will automatically skip saving those kind of pointless edits. Now you know, right? Prhartcom (talk) 14:09, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Johnuniq: No, I don't, because never filled this report for being reverted! As already said above, He's done some attacks. He's apparently done this before. I did not need to retaliate, since I never removed the link after the revert. Please assume good faith (I think you know where the AGF page is so I don't embed the wikilink) and don't make such clear judgement in future. So you endorse his attacks and generic remarks? And on "Are your views and feelings so important that all this time can be wasted because you don't like having your edits reverted, even when they are trivial", can you hear me? this is not a matter of being reverted. Other editors pointed the attacks and incivilities. Can you understand that? You are free to no waste your time here. Thanks. Mhhossein (talk) 18:42, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Prhartcom: Thanks for tip but did you not miss some other issues? Mhhossein (talk) 18:45, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- Drmies: But as the others said and as I tried to tell him while discussing the points, his revert was something surprising and unnecessary. Anyway, @Ponyo: how do you think discussing the "keeping" or "removing" of an external link was not improving and/or at least related to the article? All in all, his incivilities, which has to be stopped, was much more irritating! Mhhossein (talk) 05:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Wtshymanski reverting IP editors in breach of editing restrictions
In March 2015, Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) had an editing restriction imposed because he was routinely reverting any edit made by an IP address based editor regardless of whether it was vandalism or a good faith edit. The editing restriction was:
Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · logs) is banned from reverting any edit made by an editor using an IP address. This includes not only a direct reversion of an edit (using the "undo" button) but also indirectly reverting by copy-pasting text from a previous version of an article.
On the 23rd March 2016, Wtshymanski reverted an IP editor in violation of this ban with this edit.
On the 16th March, Wtshymanski reverted an IP address editor with this edit. This was an indirect revert (by copy pasting) of this good faith edit made by an IP address editor. The ban was enacted precisely to stop this last behaviour.
Note: that the ban was made for any edit made by an IP editor because Wtshymanski was disguising reverts of good faith edits by labelling them as vandalism. This is also a known tactic: to carry out an apparently harmless edit in amongst a raft of other edits to check if anyone is watching. If they are not, it is back to business as usual. 212.183.128.152 (talk) 12:25, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Here is a link to the long ANI discussion about this editing restriction. Liz Read! Talk! 12:47, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator observation) This was a perfectly good revert. However, a ban applies and it's indefinite. Nevertheless, I find swinging the ban hammer based on a single (good) revert a little too much. The remedy was proposed to break a pattern, and this edit can hardly be said to fit that particular mold. Don't try to kill a gnat with a howitzer... Kleuske (talk) 12:57, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- P.S. As for the known tactic, unless you have evidence (and show it) that this is a recurring pattern with this user WP:AGF applies. Kleuske (talk) 13:00, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'm concerned about this because although I'd fully support these particular edits (one is vandalism, one an error) there is a problem here that Wtshymanski acquired a richly deserved editing restriction to limit. He is in breach of it.
- I favour no action here, as I can't see that any action would be any more than punitive. However he should be reminded that the restriction is in place. Any further reversions like this are likely to attract sanctions.
- I'm mostly unimpressed by the IP editor here trawling to find excuses to bring Wtshymanski to ANI weeks after an uninvolved event. In what way is that a constructive action? Is there need for a WP:BOOMERANG here? Andy Dingley (talk) 13:10, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Suggestion If Wtshymanski didn't breach the ban for over a year (block log is clean since 2013, so I can only assume this is the case), and their first technical slipup was not of the same disruptive kind that led to the ban in the first place, perhaps someone should suggest appealing the ban, or maybe putting them on probation where they can revert clear vandalism, mistakes, etc. for, say, six months, before the restriction is lifted entirely? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:56, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- An examination of Wtshymanski's editing history answers your point. Since the ban in March 2015, Wtshymanski has only made a handful of edits (19 to be precise) up to March of this year. He has since then sprung back to life with nearly 200 edits.
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- Someone above dismissed the second example that I posted as an 'error'. In what way? The IP editor made a good faith edit that was technically correct. It might be argued by some that we don't call batteries as cells in every day parlance but that is not the point. Wtshymanski reverted the edit against his ban. Part of the original complaint was that Wtshymanski was not checking the history prior to his actions.
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- An editing ban is an editing ban. Either we have them or we don't. At the very least, Wtshymanski should be warned that he has erred. 212.183.128.152 (talk) 15:17, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- That is interesting, and does make me lean more toward a six-month probation period before all sanctions are lifted than simply immediately lifting the sanctions, but then again you might be just as much at fault, because apparently an IP editor has been trying to goad Wtshymanski into violating their restriction. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:18, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- An editing ban is an editing ban. Either we have them or we don't. At the very least, Wtshymanski should be warned that he has erred. 212.183.128.152 (talk) 15:17, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Not me. I have had no interaction with Wtshymanski for well over a year (apart from placing the required ANI notice on his talk page). Also forgive me but I have had to make this post from an alternative platform because the ANI page refuses to update on my regular PC. 85.255.232.7 (talk) 16:42, 9 April 2016 (UTC) (AKA 212.183.128.252)
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- The IP who was reverted for their error went to 3RR to push an unsourced and incorrect change, in quite a proscriptive form, "properly speaking, a battery consists of two or more cells". This is simply wrong (1 cell is still a battery), especially when stated so firmly. So whoever reverts it, that's not a statement that belongs in that article. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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Before considering a reduction in restrictions, please look at the pattern of behavior here:
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive879#Editor routinely reverting contributions from IP address editors.
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive866#Wtshymanski hammering his personal knowledge into articles again
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive841#User Wtshymanski refusing to follow the merge procedure when merging articles
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive733#Unilateral redirects without merging as stated in edit summaries - User:Wtshymanski
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive683#Request for admin attention re: proposed deletion of multiple electronics components articles
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive690#Wtshymanski failing to work collaboratively
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive138#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:Floydian .28Result: Stale.29
- Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 36#Power factor
- Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Wtshymanski
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive257#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:85.255.233.193 (Result: Protected)
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive172#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:Guy Macon (Result: declined, semi-protected)
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive149#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:24.177.120.74 (Result: page protected)
- Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance/archive103#Wtshymanski and the transistor AfDs
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure/Archive 7#Talk:PSR_B1919.2B21.23Merge
Some of the above incidents that should have ended up as blocks ended up instead as page protection because Wtshymanski's latest opponent (typically a new user) behaved worse, so Wtshymanski's block log does not tell the whole story.
Whenever a line is drawn that Wtshymanski is not supposed to cross, he stands on the line with his toes hanging over it and makes random short dashes over the line and back. This generates endless debates as to whether sanctions are appropriate for the minor infraction.
Also note that whenever Wtshymanski faces the possibility of sanctions, he typically does not defend himself or comment at ANI (statistically, this is a great strategy for avoiding sanctions) but instead stops editing for a while. The old "he hasn't edited since X, so nothing to do here" trick works every time -- his RFC/U was closed with "Considering that Wtshymanski has not edited since 16 May 2012, no immediate administrative action appears required". If he stops editing, please don't fall for this trick again.
Whenever administrators decline to take any action, Wtshymanski regards it as an endorsement of his behavior. He has repeatedly responded to warnings on his talk page with a comment that he has been taken to ANI, no action was taken, and therefore his behavior is acceptable. "... and yet, every time someone lists me at WqA or ANI, it peters out due to lack of interest."[274]
The good news is that Wtshymanski responds well to even short blocks. A 6 or 12-hour block will cause the specific behavior that led to the block to stop for many months and even years. The other good news is that the vast majority of the time he does really good work, and we have a shortage of skilled engineers who can detect problems in highly technical engineering articles. The bad news is that every so often Wtshymanski pushes the engineering equivalent of fringe theories and pseudoscience, and in such cases he refuses to accept any feedback from the other skilled engineers who are working on the page. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:39, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Most of those come from before -- some long before -- the restriction was put in place. Wtshymanski technically violated his ban twice, in a benign manner that others agree with on the substance, but thee also got in fights with IP editors and new editors as four years before the ban was put in place and managed to avoid restrictions because they were right on the substance then as well. Per what the IP said above, technically it would be impossible for a dozen instances of violating the ban to have already gone unnoticed, because they've only been actively editing for a few weeks. Retroactively blocking Wtshymanski for an edit they made back in 2011, because it my have been in violation of a restriction placed in 2015, even for only a few hours, is a terrible idea. I don't know if it was your intention -- I actually doubt it was -- but I know for a fact that there are contributors on ANI who actively try to enforce restrictions ex post facto, and I can't shake the feeling that some of them get their way, so even accidentally giving them their way here would be a disastrous misstep. And fourteen threads on multiple forums (only six on ANI) over more than half a decade is pretty average, and possibly below average for someone who's made on average around 13 edits a day for over a decade. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:18, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Where has anyone suggested that Wtshymanski be blocked for an edit made in 2011? Guy has provided some context but that is basically all. 85.255.232.7 (talk) 16:43, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I strongly disagree. My "posting links to discussions from five years ago" helps the situation a lot. This is a case of long-term behavior, and the fact that he was doing the same thing five or even ten years ago is extremely relevant. I presented the following context:
- Wtshymanski does a lot of good work and should be retained if at all possible.
- Wtshymanski is usually (but not always) right when it comes to questions involving engineering and technology.
- Wtshymanski often ends up battling IPs and newly-registered users who are pushing engineering pseudoscience, often for commercial reasons.
- Wtshymanski exhibits long-term problematic behavior and will not collaborate with other established Wikipedia editors who have technical skills.
- Wtshymanski (unlike most editors who end up at ANI) is extremely responsive to sanctions, and a very short block usually puts an end to the particular behavior being addressed.
- This is context that will help any administrator who decides to deal with this situation. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:03, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree. My "posting links to discussions from five years ago" helps the situation a lot. This is a case of long-term behavior, and the fact that he was doing the same thing five or even ten years ago is extremely relevant. I presented the following context:
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- As a sometime critic of WTS, I looked at the two WTS diffs in the original report. The first one was a straightforward vandalism revert that nobody should get worked up about. The second was more problematic but should have been discussed with WTS before bringing it here. Especially since there doesn't seem to be a recent recurring issue, the report and its followup came across as axe-grinding, as per Andy Dingley. I think an admin should leave WTS a talk message linking the second diff and asking him to be more careful, but more immediate action against WTS is not needed. The batteries/cells thing should be discussed on the article talk page. The reporting IP's style also reminds me of a certain someone but I'll leave any decisions about that to others. 50.0.121.79 (talk) 21:59, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
MaranoFan and WP:CIR issues
This is a report concerning the user MaranoFan, whom after the emergence of several incidents on Wikipedia, I have come to determine has WP:CIR issues. Understandably, one may think that I am being unduly harsh, but here is my evidence which suggests that this is the case. Please note that I may shorten the user's name at times to "Marano" or "MF" throughout this filing.
- At Talk That Talk (Rihanna song): MaranoFan removed content from the article which was actually present at the time it was nominated for Featured Article status in September 2013. The explanation was that the Daily Mail, a British tabloid newspaper, was an unreliable source. Had this information and its source been contentious, it would have been removed prior to achieving its high standard award. However, what Marano had failed to realise was that the Daily Mail can be used as a source for musical reviews - see here. Furthermore, this negative review, carried out by a DM journalist, is needed to achieve a balanced viewpoint on the article.
- Following this, MF then proceeded to continue with their removal of several sources from the article Love Me Like You; difference between revisions here. The same behaviour was demonstrated here, here, and here. Another user, Snuggums, told MaranoFan later that HitFix was indeed a reliable source here.
- The aforementioned reversions actually appear to be an attempt to WP:HOUND the user Calvin999; the sources were initially added by him. I also see passive-aggressive attempts to WP:HOUND the user Winkelvi, such as through the giving of barnstars to editors whom they had ostensibly never had interactions with before, and also who had been in disagreement with WV before here. The statement "I don't think we have ever interacted on wiki before" is incorrect, as MF had interacted with this user on their talk page previously in regards to an issue with an editor who is now indefinitely blocked for abusing multiple accounts: Here.
- Furthermore, this non-AGF edit summary calls Calvin999 a vandal, something which he is most definitely not; he has been on Wikipedia for over six years.
- Finally, MaranoFan recently requested autopatrolled rights. In their reason for requesting these rights, MaranoFan said: "[It] would be REALLY helpful in creating articles." - diff here However, WP:AUTOPAT does not help one in the creation of articles. It was evident that MF had failed to read the aforementioned page on the user right, and another editor had pointed this out on the WP:PERM page - diff here.
Also note: There's also this GA nomination. MaranoFan had nominated this article for GA when they had not edited it for weeks - they also had not met the improvement criteria issued in the previous GA nom which had failed. Calvin further addressed the failed GA at User talk:Carbrera. When MaranoFan decided to notify Tomica of the situation, and even when asked by him to stop, Marano carried on - difference between revisions here.
Whilst I have time to do this, I'll add: Polemic vios by MF here and here. In one of these revisions, I am referred to as a "vandal", as MF had previously referred to Calvin. I, for one, have never vandalised Wikipedia, and this is therefore a baseless accusation, not to mention the fact that it seems they are unaware of the definition for "vandal", further demonstrating their incompetence as an editor.
Overall, I feel as if I can no longer assume that this editor is contributing in good faith in any way whatsoever. When a long-term editor fails to understand key policies, and is harassing other editors, I can only assume that there are WP:CIR issues involved. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 16:21, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Proposed 1 week block for Ches
There doesn't appear to be any support for this action. WP:SNOW (non-admin closure) clpo13(talk) 19:52, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Having reviewed this report (which demonstrates that Ches does not even understand WP:CIR or WP:AGF) and the Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Alternative_proposal:_block_for_MaranoFan spectacular time wasting failure by Ches to get the same editor blocked above, it is evident that Ches is on a quest to drive User:MaranoFan off the project for no good reason. This behavior is harassing another editor and should not be rewarded by more attention at ANi except to look at Ches's behavior.
- Support as proposer. Legacypac (talk) 16:35, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose I don't know the background of this but the first 4 points presented seem legit and the 5th makes an off-topic point. I see no reason to ban Ches for that. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 16:49, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose I can't see how Ches should have a WP:BOOMERANG hit them here - as per QEDK, 4 valid points worthy of bringing to the community I feel, and there's no 'driving off the project' going on here I don't think - evidence please. Mike1901 (talk) 17:06, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose and condemn this as spurious and tendentious. As some of the complaints contained within the previous thread alluded too were equally legitimate: and it is perhaps slightly unfair to blame Chesnaught555 for that thread, when in fact it was originally proposed *BY ME*... and was supported by other editors too. This will undoubtedly be a case of that rarity in physics and wood-working... the boomerang that itself boomerangs. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 17:14, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose per QEDK. Gamaliel (talk) 17:26, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose per QEDK also. Roy Howard Mills (talk) 18:19, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose and recommend the proposer withdraw this absurdity. Hy Brasil (talk) 18:58, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. I'm going to create a Bingo card for ANI. The first row will have "meritless calls for a boomerang", "accusations of bullying", "166 IP harasses Ricky81682", "Drmies", and "a close is reverted at least three times". NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:01, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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- Note I have undone Legacypac's close: if WP:INVOLVED could apply to non-Admins, this would be the money shot. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 19:55, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Actually you did not, Ches and his proxy did. Legacypac (talk) 20:32, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- Well DUH... edit conflict. That was a great close of yours though, really great. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 04:16, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
I just noticed this thread and was appalled by Legacypc's proposal. May I remind everyone that Ches did in fact not create the idea. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi initially proposed a block for MaranoFan with Ches and I agreeing. I suggested to Ches to create a sub-section for the second proposal in MF's thread. To just blatantly assume that Ches was the initiator was just wrong. Please check your facts straight. I haven't reviewed this thread, but I will once I find the time to do so. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 16:01, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- I'd just like to thank you both (Callmemirela and Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi) for clarifying that. Of course, I do accept responsibility for starting the official proposal as such. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 17:23, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Another Charlene McMann sock?
Sock confirmed and blocked. (non-admin closure) GABHello! 19:33, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Mindimoo (talk · contribs) seems to be yet another of the Charlene McMann socks. Suspicious activity at any rate. Please see here Regards, Aloha27 talk 17:54, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Copyright violations by CJojoC
User indef blocked. (non-admin closure) Softlavender (talk) 11:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
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CJojoC (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) continues to copy plot summaries from other websites, despite many warnings not to do so. CJojoC was most recently warned by Diannaa on 2 April [275], and CJojoC added more copyvio almost immediately [276]. More copyvio text was added on 6 April: [277], [278]. Looking at the history of My Little Baby shows that CJojoC inserted a copyvio plot summary three times after being reverted: [279], [280], [281]. I think a block may be needed to stop the copyvio. Random86 (talk) 01:38, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- Also the lack of user talk edits shows a refusal to communicate with other editors. Indeffed. MER-C 03:34, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Suspect user User:Shonell Thakker of paid editing
Please take this to WP:COIN(non-admin closure)FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 15:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
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User:Shonell Thakker, whose talk page has a warning message from admin user:Materialscientist seems to be following the pattern of a paid editor. All their edits are related to obscure Indian film personalities. The articles have a promotional tone.
A simple google search of the user shows they have a history of employment with entertainment-related PR agencies and digital marketing firms. Request an admin to investigate whether the edits violate Wikipedia's policies around paid editing and Conflict of Interest.
14.140.50.82 (talk) 10:50, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- Materialscientist has not posted anything at all to this user's talk page ever. And neither has anyone else posted anything about paid editing. Have you considered the possibility that the user may be unaware of the policy? 86.149.141.166 (talk) 10:59, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- No, MS hasn't; but ~82 is probably confusing this (slightly bizarre) message that Shonnel Thakker posted to their own TP- which is of an an unblock request by an IP declined by MS! Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 11:48, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- The proper place to file a report such as this is WP:COIN, so please move this thread there. Softlavender (talk) 11:15, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please unprotect Template:Inflation/UK/dataset
See my edit summary here for why - it needs 2016 adding otherwise pages using {{{{CURRENTYEAR}}}} won't work, but I cannae add it due to semi protection n stuff, innit. 86.170.7.13 (talk) 16:55, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Reporting Siredejoinville for disseminating false information, probable conflict of interest, and for hoaxes
I’m reporting Siredejoinville for disseminating false information, sabotage, and suspected hoaxes. Below some of the articles that he has created and/or expanded:
Patrimonial Heritage of House of Borja makes no sense whatsoever. The titles held by members of this family are or could be included in the respective articles on the individuals and/or in the umbrella article, House of Borgia. What the user is trying to do is to invalidate the transmission of these titles or the fact that some are now extinct, to claim that these titles should have been passed on to a Juan de Borja Matheus and that now the rightful heir is Jorge Reinaldo Ruiz de Borja-Haro Mariño de Lobeira y Trastamara-Aragón. Although I’m not reporting this because of socking concerns, it is quite revealing that the name of the supposed heir to these titles is quite similar (embellished with high-falutin surnames) to that of Ruiz-Mariño, a user who was blocked, for being a suspected puppet of Siredejoinville, the same user who has been creating or expanding articles created by the former.
The other articles which he has created or edited are: Francisco Mariño y Soler; Jerónimo Mariño de Lobeira y Sotomayor; Antonio Mariño de Lobeira y Andrade, Count of Mayalde (I’m currently fixing it); Principality of Tricarico; Marquisate of Lombay; Duke of Valentinois, and lastly, Prince of Squillace which I and another user have fixed but, as you can see in the history, just today he reverted and added info without references (or with primary sources), removing the rightful title holders, etc. He has also created County of San Juan, Marquisate of Santa Rosa, Vicecounty of Casa Romana all of which I suspect are hoaxes since I have been unable to find any supporting reference. Please check the history of these articles and the supposed title-holder and the remarks I left on the discussion page of a couple of these articles.
Titles in Spain are very regulated and transmission, new titles, rehabilitation, etc. must be approved by the Ministry of Justice and published in the BOE (the Official State Gazette) as shown here, where I added the new title-holder and a link to the publication. What this user is doing is very risky and probably illegal; some of these titles have current title-holders who would not be too pleased to see that en.wiki is giving false information. In addition, his competence in the English language is not sufficient as another user pointed out.
For more details, you can check the messages I left at the discussion page of BgWhite: here, here, and here. --Maragm (talk) 18:10, 10 April 2016 (UTC)