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Demerliac requests
Hi Rama, I have four what I hope are more minor requests.
These were all French privateers. Thanks, and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 14:38, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- Hello,
- Thanks to your request, I chanced upon the list of prizes taken in the Capture of the Dutch fleet at Den Helder, something I had been wondering about recently, so thank you for that!
- I have added what I could to these articles, not much most of the time. The Bonaparte that would have become Swaggerer is a bit of a mystery, there are five privateers and a schooner of that name, but the dates do not match; details on these ships are often patchy (I suspect very small ships), and those large enough to feature some degree of information do not clearly match the detail for Swaggerer. Any chance you could provide further clues?
- Cheers and good continuation! Rama (talk) 18:48, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
Hi Rama, I am afraid we are stuck on Bonapart/Swaggerer. When I looked for any information on her capture I found nothing. Demerliac was my last hope. I suspect that she was a vessel commissioned in the Caribbean for which information never reached back to France. I have tidied up Capture of the Dutch fleet at Den Helder and added some more info from a Dutch source. I suspect that many of the vessels were over-aged and left sitting there with only a skeleton crew because it was winter and they were iced-in. I did have two questions, though. I treated the Fl100 million as applying to the entire list of prizes, not just the ships-of-the-line. Is that correct? Also, I noticed that the French sources report that the infantry rode on the rumps of the hussars' horses. A more usual method at the time was for the infantrymen to run alongside the horses whilst holding on to the riders' stirrups. Are the sources unambiguous on this issue? I appreciate the explanation of Razoir national; I always wondered what that meant but was too lazy to try to find out. Lastly, thanks for what you were able to find out about the other vessels. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:13, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Hello, and thank you for your help with Den Helder. The Fl100 million are listed with the ships of the line in Demerliac, but no other amount is specified for the other ships, so I'd say your assumption is a fair bet. I will ask the opinion of an expert for the mounted infantry, we are lucky enough to have a very knowledgeable writer on wp-fr.
- As for Bonaparte/Swaggerer, "Caribbean" would be a useful clue: I do have a privateer probably from Saint-Malo that operated near Guadeloupe. Her name was Alliance, renamed Bonaparte in September 1799, commissioned under Ensign Pierre Martin with 30 men and 12 4-pounders, involved in a battle against the British off Porto-Rico on 14 October 1799, and captured by HMS Echo on 16 (Demerliac p.320 no 2734). She is mentionned in Les Corsaires français sous la République and in Histoire des marins français sous la République. Cheers! Rama (talk) 17:02, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- PS: The Fonds Marine also mention another privateer Bonaparte that is reported to have battled HMS Hippomenes on 21 June 1804, commanded by Paimpéni. Rama (talk) 17:37, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Rama, Thanks for looking into my two Helder queries. The issues are not critical, but I like to be accurate. I don't think either of your Caribbean Bonapartes are Swaggerer. The first is too early, and my impression of privateers is that they tend to have short privateering lives: a few cruises and that is it. If they are successful, the owners and captains get out of the business. If they are unsuccessful, the owners and captains get out out of the business. For the second Bonaparte you mention, the story of the engagement with Hippomenes is in the Hippomenes article. Clearly, Bonaparte got away due to lack of discipline on the part of Hippomenes 's crew. However, this Bonaparte appears to be the one that HMS Cyane captured a few months later and that the RN took into service as HMS Pert. Pert was already wrecked before the Navy captured the Bonaparte that became Swaggerer. (I have now added HMS Pert to my list of ships to write up as apparently there is French information about her and her captain prior to the Royal Navy capturing that Bonaparte.) In looking through English sources I have tried a number of variant spellings, and similar names, and just haven't found anything. Even trying to find other vessels captured in late 1808-early 1809 in the Caribbean did not generate any likely candidates. Still, thanks for your efforts. Best, Acad Ronin (talk) 20:22, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Rama, I checked the National Maritime Museum Database re Swaggerer, and it gave the privateer's name as Napoleon, not Bonaparte, and the year of capture as 1807, not 1808. I still couldn't find any capture of a Napoleon, but hope that this can help. And the theatre of concern is almost surely the Caribbean. I have also prepared an article on HMS Pert (1804), and would appreciate your checking the French sources. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 04:25, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- This could be a breakthrough, I have two possible candidates, both from Saint Domingue:
- Napoléon, a 5-gun schooner with 66 men, formerly the British prize British Domonica (? I suspect this is misspelt), captured on 2 January 1806 by HMS Malabar and Wolf (p.317, no 2708)
- Napoléon, ex-Minerve, captured either on 30 October 1806 by HMS Diligent, or on 8 February 1808 by Meleager (she would have been named Renard by then). Small ship on one 4-pounder with 47 men.
- Cheers! Rama (talk) 18:03, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Rama, I am afraid that neither works. Her crew mutinied and turned HMS Dominica (1805) over to the French, who named her Napoléon and put an ad hoc crew on board, but the RN recaptured her five days later and took her back into service under her existing name. As for Swaggerer, she was a brig of c.300 tons (bm), and 16 guns, so she is too big to be the second Napoléon. Thanks for trying. I suspect that this puzzle, like Modeste, may never be solved, and if it is, it will be purely by accident while we are looking for something completely different. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 22:08, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- This could be a breakthrough, I have two possible candidates, both from Saint Domingue:
- Hi Rama, I checked the National Maritime Museum Database re Swaggerer, and it gave the privateer's name as Napoleon, not Bonaparte, and the year of capture as 1807, not 1808. I still couldn't find any capture of a Napoleon, but hope that this can help. And the theatre of concern is almost surely the Caribbean. I have also prepared an article on HMS Pert (1804), and would appreciate your checking the French sources. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 04:25, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Rama, Thanks for looking into my two Helder queries. The issues are not critical, but I like to be accurate. I don't think either of your Caribbean Bonapartes are Swaggerer. The first is too early, and my impression of privateers is that they tend to have short privateering lives: a few cruises and that is it. If they are successful, the owners and captains get out of the business. If they are unsuccessful, the owners and captains get out out of the business. For the second Bonaparte you mention, the story of the engagement with Hippomenes is in the Hippomenes article. Clearly, Bonaparte got away due to lack of discipline on the part of Hippomenes 's crew. However, this Bonaparte appears to be the one that HMS Cyane captured a few months later and that the RN took into service as HMS Pert. Pert was already wrecked before the Navy captured the Bonaparte that became Swaggerer. (I have now added HMS Pert to my list of ships to write up as apparently there is French information about her and her captain prior to the Royal Navy capturing that Bonaparte.) In looking through English sources I have tried a number of variant spellings, and similar names, and just haven't found anything. Even trying to find other vessels captured in late 1808-early 1809 in the Caribbean did not generate any likely candidates. Still, thanks for your efforts. Best, Acad Ronin (talk) 20:22, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Paris
Cher Rama, Je suis désolée. J'espere que vous and votres sont sauf et sain. Avec amitié, Acad Ronin (talk) 11:42, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- Merci beaucoup, je suis très touché.
- Fortunately nobody I know was involved in this sorry situation. In these days of stupefaction, I think of the people of the world who are unfortunate enough to be accustomed to such events, not only out of compassion but because their quality of life is the key to these issues.
- Anyway, now as ever, fluctuat nec mergitur. Thank you for your kind toughts and cheers! Rama (talk) 13:49, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
Two Demerliac requests
Hi Rama, fluctuat nec mergitur indeed; Paris survived the Nazis, it will survive this, Deo volente. In the meantime, if you have the time, could you please check first on the Bonaparte that became HMS Pert (1804). Second, what does Demerliac have on the French privateer Phoenix that HMS Aigle captured on 12 September 1810? There is some possibility that she became the whaler Phoenix (1809 ship). The letter in the London Gazette describing her capture refers to her as being of 220 tons burthen (French), whereas the whaler was of 348 tons burthen (English). So the match is not quite right. However, the timing of the capture is perfect for her to become a British whaler in 1811. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 04:08, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- Hello,
- I am afraid that there is nothing of notice on Bonaparte. The closest matches have serious discrepancies in their dates.
- I have tried to put everything I could find on Phénix, I hope this is the ship you wanted. I am sure this is ovious, but do the London Gazette and the records that refer to the whaler refer to the same measurement? If the measurement at capture is Light displacement while the whaler is measured by Loaded displacement, this would compound with the smaller Englis units and possible equipment added for whaling.
- Cheers! Rama (talk) 14:37, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Rama, too bad about Pert. As far as Phoenix is concerned, she doesn't seem to be the vessel Demerliac is describing. Here is the link to the London Gazette letter announcing her capture:[1] Her captor describes Phoenix as nearly new, which is more consistent with an 1809 launch year than 1807. Also, she is heavily armed (18x18-pounder guns), and pierced for 20, which is consistent with the vessel that became the whaler. The only discrepancy is the estimated 220 tons burthen. The whaler Phoenix is described in Lloyd's Register as 348 tons burthen. On balance, I suspect that Demerliac may have mistaken the 1807 Phoenix for the Phoenix that Aigle captured, and slightly mis-described. I am hoping that the French captain's name in the LG letter gives you some clue. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:35, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
- That would be Jacques François Perroud, but we now have discrepancies in the dates as well. Phénix seems to have been one of these heavy corvettes that Bordeaux produced, I'll try and see if I can find a ship that looks like this. Cheers! Rama (talk) 06:41, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
- So, double-checking, there is nothing better I can find in Demerliac. He seems to have conflated a cutter with Perroud's ship -- the fact that he does not mention Perroud as captain of the ship might be a clue that it is indeed a different ship, since Perroud was a privateer of a very high calibre and would not have gone unnoticed. Your description of his Phénix is reminiscent of ships like Confiance or indeed of Perroud's own Bellone, a fitting type of ship for such a captain. I am rather surprised that she would not turn up, but I'll keep an eye open in case I find something in other sources. Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:55, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
- I am going to work on the assumption that Demerliac missed one. As you say, Perroud was a notable privateer and that is consistent with the description of Phoenix. If it wasn't for frustration we wouldn't have any fun at all. Many thanks for your efforts. Acad Ronin (talk) 20:33, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Rama, too bad about Pert. As far as Phoenix is concerned, she doesn't seem to be the vessel Demerliac is describing. Here is the link to the London Gazette letter announcing her capture:[1] Her captor describes Phoenix as nearly new, which is more consistent with an 1809 launch year than 1807. Also, she is heavily armed (18x18-pounder guns), and pierced for 20, which is consistent with the vessel that became the whaler. The only discrepancy is the estimated 220 tons burthen. The whaler Phoenix is described in Lloyd's Register as 348 tons burthen. On balance, I suspect that Demerliac may have mistaken the 1807 Phoenix for the Phoenix that Aigle captured, and slightly mis-described. I am hoping that the French captain's name in the LG letter gives you some clue. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:35, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
Two new requests
Hi Rama, one may be doable, but the second is almost surely impossible.
- In early 1810 HMS Phoenix captured a privateer named Charles. This is not the Semillante/Charles that gave us so much trouble, but another one. Do we know anything about it?
- Between 1797 and sometime in 1802-3, the French had possession of the merchantman Boyd (1783 ship). Do we have any information from the French side on this? She was a simple, though large, merchantman, not a privateer or letter of marque before capture. I don't know what name she had in French service, or who captured her. If nothing shows up using "Boyd" as a keyword, please just drop the whole matter. It would be nice to know more, but she is not the sort of vessel that would have left much of a footprint in French sources.
Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 20:17, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
- Hello,
- as you feared, I am afraid that I did not find anything on Boyd (though I did find a brig name Boyne that was used as a school ship, but I very much doubt there is a connection).
- On the other hand, Charles seems to have been a privateer from Bordeaux, mentioned from December 1808, that cruised under Captain Plassiard with 90 men and 14 guns (Demerliac p.288 no 2305). Plassiard is mentioned in Gallois' Les Corsaires français sous la République, but without any specific detail.
- Cheers! Rama (talk) 21:38, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
Hi Rama, Thanks for trying on Boyd; the probability of your finding anything was epsilon, arbitrarily close to zero. I put the Charles info in the Phoenix article. Too bad about Bonaparte/Pert; at least we now have a little confirmation of her existence and history. Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:37, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- By the way, thanks for the Plassiard clue. It enabled me to add a sentence or two to the description of Charles in the Phoenix article. Acad Ronin (talk)
Different problem
Hi Rama, in the article on the Battle of Jean-Rabel, and several related articles, the French frigate Hermione (17xx) is part of the story. James, in his history, points out that British dispatches, including the letter in the LG, call her Harmonie. There is a WP stub for a French frigate Harmonie (1796), but the date is certainly in error, and I still have questions as to the correct name, Hermione, or Harmonie? In the article I just did on HMS Janus (1796) I call her Hermione, but I would like to change all the mentions to the correct name and launch date. Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 15:28, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Hello,
- I think that this is indeed the one you want, and her name was in fact Harmonie (not Hermione). Both Roche and Demerliac are agreed on this, and there are traces of her in Troude and in the "Fonds Marine". I'll put all the details and references there. Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:08, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Excellent. I have corrected the article on Janus. Many thanks. Acad Ronin (talk) 20:24, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Splendid. The article on Harmonie has wet my appetite for this Captain Barney: he apparently made it to rear-admiral and became a shipowner investing in privating, including somewhat notable ships, yet I have not managed to find his first name or further biographical data. Hopefully we will find a clue at some point. Cheers and good continuation! Rama (talk) 20:59, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- I think we have him. He may have been the American Joshua Barney. Between 1796 and 1802 Joshua Barney served as a captain in the French Navy. See: [2], footnote on p.326. He returned to the US and eventually rose to the rank of Admiral there. What is particularly interesting is that he would have been serving France during the Quasi-War. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 21:14, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- I have added a little to the Joshua Barney page and to French frigate Harmonie (1796). If you can add anything more from French sources that would be great. Acad Ronin (talk) 21:31, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Fascinating, I'll have to skim through Napoleons British visitors and captives 1801-1815. I was wondering why Lieutenant Billiette had taken command of Harmonie, this might be an element of explanation. Apparently, Barney settled in Dunkirk and commissioned the privater Vengeance, which seems to have been rather successful under Léveillé, a half a dozen merchantmen over 400 tons, and a number of lesser ships. Rama (talk) 21:40, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Once again: "The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there." Acad Ronin (talk) 23:08, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Splendid. The article on Harmonie has wet my appetite for this Captain Barney: he apparently made it to rear-admiral and became a shipowner investing in privating, including somewhat notable ships, yet I have not managed to find his first name or further biographical data. Hopefully we will find a clue at some point. Cheers and good continuation! Rama (talk) 20:59, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Excellent. I have corrected the article on Janus. Many thanks. Acad Ronin (talk) 20:24, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
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Demerliac requests
Hi Rama, one short request if I may, and one more tedious one.
- French gun-vessel Torride (1797) - this is the simple one
- French brig Suffisante (1793) - in addition to Suffisante herself, the article mentions a number of French privateers and I was wondering if Demerliac has anything on some of them.
Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 03:12, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
- Hello,
- I am a bit overwhelmed by mundane considerations these days, so I might not be able to answer before a few days. Do poke me if your question seems to have slipped from my mind by then. Cheers! Rama (talk) 10:11, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
- Not a problem; I fully understand. Every now and then I have to spend some time on what I do for a salary. Cheers. Acad Ronin (talk) 17:32, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
- Hello,
- I am replying here rather than editing the articles because there seems to be some reflexion to be done on Sally.
- We actually have two Torride: one is a gun-vessel ("cannonière") Torride (1795-1797, no 927 p. 137); the other is our ex-Sally, but she is classified as a cutter (ketsch-rigged) (no811, p.123). She was catpured at Carfou at you suspected, but her nationality remains a mystery. She sustained 11 wounded in her captured by HMS Goliath. Her crew numbered 44 men in1798 and 30 on 18 March 1799. She was armed with 6 guns, which in May 1798 amounted to 2 18-pounders and 4 1-pounder swivel guns. She is said to have remained in the Royal Navy as a ketch (I'd suspect actually a brig given the favoured rigging in the RN) until 1802.
- Now on to Suffisante... Rama (talk) 09:12, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Rama, thanks for looking into Torride. Everything you have so far is consistent with what I got from Winfield and Roberts. I look forward to seeing, in due course, what you have on Suffisante. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:02, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- I have added references to the various ships directly on the article pertaining to Suffisante. Most are relatively minor ships, except maybe Salamandre (a naval ship). Cheers! Rama (talk) 08:36, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Many thanks. Most of the privateers are minor ships, but they could be of interest to someone doing genealogical or historical research. I have added back in (supplemented) the correct name with the name the English captors gave to some of the vessels, for instance Buonapartie to Bonaparte, to help someone who may be starting from some other old record where it is misspelled. Also, every now and then, as you know, we can make an unexpected connection. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 15:17, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- I have added references to the various ships directly on the article pertaining to Suffisante. Most are relatively minor ships, except maybe Salamandre (a naval ship). Cheers! Rama (talk) 08:36, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Rama, thanks for looking into Torride. Everything you have so far is consistent with what I got from Winfield and Roberts. I look forward to seeing, in due course, what you have on Suffisante. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:02, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
An interesting puzzle
Hi Rama, I am looking into combining the articles Albemarle (1776) and HMS Albemarle (1779). However, there are many puzzles. The article on Albemarle gives a launch year of 1776, but i have no idea what the source is. I can't find it. Also, the article refers to her as a French vessel, captured by HMS Albion in 1779. I can't find anything to confirm that. There are no other Albemarles in Lloyd's Register until 1791, when the data matches that for Hackman's book on the East India Company, except that he has Albemarle being sold in 1780. Then, with respect to HMS Albemarle, apparently she was the Menager that a squadron under Henry Hotham captured in 1779, together with three other French transports from Bordeaux. I can't confirm that, but I did find a London Gazette letter that mentions that on 22-23 September 1779, vessels belonging to Admiral Hyde Parker's squadron in Barbados had captured her, together with six other transports, including the three attributed to Hotham's squadron. I can find no other English sources on this. I would have thought that the capture of seven French transports in convoy would have merited some more coverage, but so far I have found nothing. I am hoping the French records might have something on this, including captors, circumstances, and the like. The Royal Navy sold HMS Albemarle in 1784. I hope you find this little puzzle intriguing. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 03:57, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- I should have the relevant volume of Demerliac handy sometime next week, and meanwhile I'll be skimming through the other sources to see whether we have something. Incidentally, was there not a portrait of Nelson depicted in front of all the ships he commanded? This might provide us with a portrait of Albemarle, could it not?
- Cheers! Rama (talk) 20:28, 4 December 2015 (UTC)