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Nodegoat's Geography of Violence map
May be of interest, from BBC News Magazine an article on Dutch company Nodegoat's Geography of Violence map: The map trying to record every battle ever fought. It uses data from Wikipedia (with some fine-tuning still needed for its algorithm, clearly). The site itself is at http://battles.nodegoat.net/viewer.p/23/385/scenario/1/geo/fullscreen. Carcharoth (talk) 08:03, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
East African Campaign (World War II)
East African Campaign (World War II) I've been working my way through the sections to make them succinct and then expand the linked articles but the sources I have are sketchy about Italian details and tend to leave the rightful owners of East Africa as anonymous extras. Can anyone suggest sources that don't? Regards Keith-264 (talk) 09:04, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
- Michela Wrong's book on Eritrea I Didn't Do it For You isn't about World War II, but has some good details on the Italian colonial regime and fighting there with a focus on how it affected Eritreans. Nick-D (talk) 10:58, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
Ideology of the SS
This article has proved to be a challenge and very contentious. Although it originally passed GA review back in October, 2015, it has needed some further work since that time. Part of the problem were the contributions of an editor who is now topic blocked. Much of that was dealt with since that time and further tweaks were being done with the involvement of the GA reviewer. Now, the article for the most part is being "nuked" by several editors. It has also been mentioned on the talk page that the article should be deleted at this point. I would ask that several editors from this section have a look at the article with a critical but objective eye. If kept, the goal being for objective presentation with good RS cites; from a NPOV point-of-view. Kierzek (talk) 12:45, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
- Any talk of deletion is silly. If anything, simply restore it back to the point when it was given GA status. This would wash any and all questionable edits by the now topic-banned editor, and any others, and simply leave behind a Good Article. - theWOLFchild 13:41, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
- It's not that easy because the editor in question was topic banned after this article was GA passed; and I don't believe it should go back to that point. The fact is, it needed some further work. If it was going to be "restored" to a point, it should be yesterday; with tweaks being done from that point in time. If kept, the article will need reassessment as to its GA status after the dust has settled. Kierzek (talk) 14:05, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Sorry, I was under the impression that it reached GA, then all the problems came afterward. I guess I should've taken a closer look. - theWOLFchild 18:04, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
- There's a discussion ongoing about this at Talk:Ideology of the SS#Problematic content. -Fnlayson (talk) 15:30, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
- It has been listed at: Wikipedia:Good article reassessment. Given its currently unstable, it should be de-listed. Kierzek (talk) 04:21, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- That's why it was listed there, no? Given the way it's going over there, it looks like it well on it's way to being de-listed anytime now. - theWOLFchild 04:32, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- It has been listed at: Wikipedia:Good article reassessment. Given its currently unstable, it should be de-listed. Kierzek (talk) 04:21, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
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- It's not that easy because the editor in question was topic banned after this article was GA passed; and I don't believe it should go back to that point. The fact is, it needed some further work. If it was going to be "restored" to a point, it should be yesterday; with tweaks being done from that point in time. If kept, the article will need reassessment as to its GA status after the dust has settled. Kierzek (talk) 14:05, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Successor to the UK Trident system - name/split?
There's been a bit of warring over the name of Successor to the UK Trident system. My view is that the problem stems from the fact that it's really two articles that were set up as one because at the time it wasn't known how the UK's deterrent would look in future. Since the last election, it seems near-certain that the UK will put existing Trident missiles in 4 submarines of a new class, that goes by the working name of the Successor-class submarine. Thus I think the time has come to do the same as happened with the previous generation of CASD, split out the politics from the ship-class article like Trident nuclear programme and Vanguard-class submarine. For me the only question is whether there's enough material on the politics to justify a new politics article or whether it can just be merged in to Trident nuclear programme. I've a mild preference for merging politics rather than standalone, but I'm not really bothered either way. Can we have some more eyes over at Talk:Successor_to_the_UK_Trident_system#Requested_move_1_March_2016? The article itself could always use some work given that it's such a political hot potato at the moment, views have quadrupled in recent months.Le Deluge (talk) 17:36, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
WWII content: Otto Kittel, other GA/FA articles
Following up on the SS Ideology article discussion above, I would like to ask for community's input on another GA article: Otto Kittel.
The editing on the article has proven to be contentious (see the multi-part discussion on the Talk page), so I followed up be reaching out to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard: Franz Kurowski for a GA Article (also in multiple parts). This is also a long thread; in summary:
- 4 editors deemed Kurowski non WP:RS (including myself)
- 1 editor deemed it WP:BIASED, but okay to use for "broad outlines of who was involved and what equipment was used in which battles and where", as potentially an only source available on the subject
- 1 editor (the article's editor) deemed it WP:RS.
I would welcome your review of the article and the RSN discussion with an objective eye, and rendering your opinion. Suggestions on how to proceed would also be welcome.
Separately, the recent RfA (that caused the fallout in the SS ideology article) also raised issues about the current state of GA/FA articles for me. I've found some of the MilHist GA/FA articles flawed, such as the already mentioned Otto Kittel and Ideology of the SS. The latter is on the way to being delisted; pls see GA reassessment. Other problematic (in my opinion) FA/GA articles are:
- Erich Hartmann – sources include:
- what appears to be a coffee-table book by Philip Kaplan Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe in World War WWII – 18 citations
- Insidiously titled[1] book by Toliver, Raymond F.; Constable, Trevor J. (1986). The Blond Knight of Germany. – 20 citations
- Heinrich Bär – 26 citations to Franz Kurowski
- Horst Wessel – see discussion on the Talk page: PoV Problems
From The Myth of the Eastern Front by Smelser & Davies: The Blond Knight of Germany is a "hallmark of romanization", with its "insidious" title suggesting medieval chivalry that "not only fails to characterize the conduct of the German Army in the East, but, indeed, marks its opposite".
References
- ^ Smelser & Davies 2008, pp. 170–173.
If you are up for a read, I've compiled a list of various instances of myths, legends, POV language and dubious claims. Many of these are unintentionally hilarious, so you may get a laugh:
As the result of seeing this phenomenon, I rewrote the HIAG article, discussing the post-war lobbying and apologia by former Waffen-SS officers. There's where a lot of my research sources come from, including the Revisionist tradition outside of HIAG.
I would like community's input on how best to deal with these issues, and what can be done at the MILHIST level, if that is possible. Please let me know your input and guidance. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:34, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
- In light of the way some articles have managed to slip thru the GA/FA process even they have some very questionable content, this is certainly a worthwhile request. The last thing we need in any Wikipedia article, especially when GA/FA, is Nazi glorification, pushing of a pro-Fascist POV or making light of the Holocaust. If we could have some extra eyes here take a quick look at some of these articles;
- Thank you K.E. for bringing this to our attention and thanks in advance to anyone here who helps out. - theWOLFchild 10:15, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- This individual, K.e.coffman, has been canvassing several Wikipedia noticeboards in what appears to be a campaign to oust work by Franz Kurowski from Wikipedia. On his home page there is an enormous list he has compiled himself on this subject (not just about Kurowski). He does this without being able to show that any of the information in the article is unreliable. Most of what he says appears to derived from his own opinions and "research", as he calls it, which is contravention of WP:Original Research. I'd encourage other editors to read those threads carefully, as there is no sense repeating it all here.
- Moreover, Coffman seems to be trying to tell you that the majority of editors are in opposition to Kurowski's use: in actual fact three have yet to return to give a substantial opinion, and three (including myself) regard him as a reliable enough source for Otto Kittel. Dapi89 (talk) 15:00, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not familiar with this author nor have I looked into these are articles yet, but in light of your comments here, it still stands as worthwhile to have additional uninvolved editors review these pages, so that the matter can be settled one way or the other. Thanks - theWOLFchild 15:11, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- Of course, yes. I have asked him repeatedly for sources over the last week, but he has not delivered them. The article is uncontroversial, as is the content. I await further comment from the uninvolved. Dapi89 (talk) 15:23, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- By the way, I am only involved on the Otto Kittel and Erich Hartmann articles because I added to the content. The other three I have not looked at. Dapi89 (talk) 15:26, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- I am fully supportive of adding sources which help support information in an article, underline conflicting information, or help prove information to be incorrect. Having said this, if the book The Myth of the Eastern Front by Smelser & Davies, which by the way is not free of criticism on Amazon (see Editorial Reviews), helps to improve the article by either verifying or by disproving content, it will find my full support. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:12, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- I am not a member of the WikiProject, but I did bother to read the long list of changes that User:K.e.coffman has posted on his/her page. Some of them are non-controversial cleaning of unsourced statements and editing of proper links and language. However, others might need to be discussed. While the user seems concerned about POV, I am not certain, his/her own edits are free of it.:
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- I am somewhat concerned that the user is motivated by his/her own POV rather than following sources. I hope that the changes can be compared to what the available sources actually say, to establish if further changes are needed. With cases involving Nazis, one should keep in mind that they have been subject to demonizing for the last 70 years and dispassionate sources can be rare. Dimadick (talk) 19:28, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- Moved to subsection "Alternate history department" below. Please find responses there. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:18, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- I am fully supportive of adding sources which help support information in an article, underline conflicting information, or help prove information to be incorrect. Having said this, if the book The Myth of the Eastern Front by Smelser & Davies, which by the way is not free of criticism on Amazon (see Editorial Reviews), helps to improve the article by either verifying or by disproving content, it will find my full support. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:12, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- By the way, I am only involved on the Otto Kittel and Erich Hartmann articles because I added to the content. The other three I have not looked at. Dapi89 (talk) 15:26, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- Of course, yes. I have asked him repeatedly for sources over the last week, but he has not delivered them. The article is uncontroversial, as is the content. I await further comment from the uninvolved. Dapi89 (talk) 15:23, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not familiar with this author nor have I looked into these are articles yet, but in light of your comments here, it still stands as worthwhile to have additional uninvolved editors review these pages, so that the matter can be settled one way or the other. Thanks - theWOLFchild 15:11, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Separately, here's another problematic GA article: Walther von Brauchitsch. It heavily uses an ancient 1944 source, which was picked by the editor "precisely because it was written in 1944, where the existence of the Holocaust was not yet known, which make Harts bio on Brauchitsch more neutral (in my opinion)". Please see: Brauchitsch – GA reassessment
Kurowski: "Journalism of gray and brown zone"
Summary of the criticism of the source via Franz Kurowski & The Myth of the Eastern Front (reposted from the RSN discussion):
- Kurowski is a guru, i.e. an author, "(who) have picked up and disseminated the myths of the Wehrmacht in a wide variety of popular publications that romanticize the German struggle in Russia"
- In his German wiki article, statements like "historical revisionist tendencies", "right-wing publisher", "far-right", "journalism of gray and brown zone"; "inspired by British Holocaust denier David Irving", etc, appear prominently. 'The Myth of the Eastern Front" is also mentioned. The article is well sourced to historians and other WP:RS sources.
- "Military historian Jürgen Rohwer began a critical examination of the data published by Nazi Germany on successes (sunken tonnage) of submarine commanders in 1957. Afterwards, Kurowski belonged to the authors who held on to the details of the Nazi propaganda regardless of the research results." (Please see source and exact citation on De Wikipedia article above. So his numbers of "victories" are not to be trusted, IMO.)
- "In his 2001 book Bombs over Dresden Kurowski included a 16 pages long "eyewitness reports" of low-flying aircraft hunting civilians. In fact, that was a made-up account. Lars-Broder Keil and Sven Felix Kellerhoff criticized Kurowski in their book German legends. (I believe in plain English this is called "lies". Please see citation on De.wikipedia.)
The Otto Kittel article is almost exclusively cited to Kurowski.
I had requested a translation of the De article on Kurowski, so that a an article on the English wiki can be created. The article is not finished yet, but you can read the draft translation here: | Draft:Franz Kurowski. K.e.coffman (talk) 17:39, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- Just for info, I have made a few minor edits to the draft, most importantly linking Fuller. Irondome (talk) 17:58, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- Here is a translation of the German Wikipedia article on Kurowski[1]. Clearly not an RS source by any stretch of the imagination. An advocate with a clear agenda. Coretheapple (talk) 19:04, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Comment: Since Kurowski is neither an academic author nor published with an academic publisher, it is up to whomever is using him as a source to provide evidence that he is a reliable source. If K is only used to provide basic facts, the question is, why these can not be found in other, more reliable, sources. If K's opinion is related, it has to be made clear from what POV he is writing. The underlying problem with K, and authors like him, is, that English-language authors are liberally using these authors as sources without questioning their narrative, mostly, because they are unaware of their political affiliations. ÄDA - DÄP VA (talk) 19:33, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
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- ÄDA - DÄP|ÄDA - DÄP VA- You are correct hit the nail on the head. There are so many reliable sources on the Eastern front that I have read and own ie. Albert Seaton, John Erickson, Earl Ziemke, and David Glantz. Why bother with Kurowski.?--Woogie10w (talk) 11:30, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- Largely agree, if not for the fact that Kurowski is the only source (to my knowledge) which currently covers Kittel's personal background and family status (documented with family images). According to the Badische Zeitung, his son Manfred Kittel is currently working on a book about his father. This book, if considered reliable in this specific context (Manfred Kittel is not a historian), could supplement Kurowski. MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:52, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- ÄDA - DÄP|ÄDA - DÄP VA- You are correct hit the nail on the head. There are so many reliable sources on the Eastern front that I have read and own ie. Albert Seaton, John Erickson, Earl Ziemke, and David Glantz. Why bother with Kurowski.?--Woogie10w (talk) 11:30, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
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- ÄDA - DÄP VA, you've failed to understand this is not an academic article, it does not require Professors or PhD holders to source it - being an uncontroversial article.
- The user questioning Kurowski uses a source that calls him a revisionist without proper explanation, and then acknowledges the accuracy of his work on specific personalities and units within the German military.
- The burdern of proof is clearly on Coffman. He has complied a short list and a German wikipedia article to support his contention. The first is vague and incomplete (AND contradictory), the second contains sources that cannot be traced by authors whose backgrounds are unknown. Dapi89 (talk) 15:20, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
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- I have to agree with MisterBee1966 after I revisted the articles on Wikipedia that use Kurowski as a source. Kurowski was a prolific writer who specialized in WW2 German militaria, the lives and heroic deeds of German servicemen in the war. Some of his works are in the New York Public Library. A lot of good work has been done on Wikipedia using Kurowski as a source, the lives of the Aces, U-Boot crews and tank units. Kurowski is in the same genre as Osprey Publishing in the English speaking world. We need to keep Kurowski as a source but point out in a bio that he ignored the dark side of Nazi Germany and shined the spotlight on the German servicemen in the war. --Woogie10w (talk) 18:20, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
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There is also a POV involved in outright rejecting historical revisionism. Our article on the subject points to several cases where the views of revisionists challenged and replaced the previously established consensus views of mainstream historians. Leading to a new consensus or new discussion on the topic, and in some cases challenges from a new generation or revisionists. Dimadick (talk) 20:16, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
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- This is most certainly not an academic article and nobody would be fooled about it. But WP is working according to academic standards, i.e. every statement of fact or opinion needs to be sourced by reliable and verifiable sources. The problem with Kurowski is, that in his prose he was prone to either omit unpleasant aspects or stated as facts certain myths circulating in far-right narratives in Germany. While the former is not a problem, since there are other authors focusing on these aspects, the latter is unacceptable. The problem is how to sort out what is proven fact and what is neo-Nazi propaganda. This is what makes Kurowski an unreliable source. A few examples:
- Kurowski wrote a book published in 2007 about U-48, which fails to elaborate on the sinking of SS City of Benares, for which U-48's CO was put on trial after the war. To Kurowski these post-war trials were merely drummed up charges to smear the memories of wartime heroes.
- In his 1995 book about the Fallschirm-Panzerkorps Hermann Göring Kurowski described the unit's operations against partisans. While he went into great detail of partisan atrocities against German military personnel, he omitted any German reprisals against civilians.
- In 1983 and again in 1995 books by Kurowski were published by Druffel, one of the largest right-wing extremist publishing houses in Germany, which contained the myth about "The Massacre at Elbe Meadows".
- Unfortunately this does not make Kurowski an unsuccessful writer, to the contrary. He wrote what people wanted to read and believe - and still do. ÄDA - DÄP VA (talk) 19:50, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- This is most certainly not an academic article and nobody would be fooled about it. But WP is working according to academic standards, i.e. every statement of fact or opinion needs to be sourced by reliable and verifiable sources. The problem with Kurowski is, that in his prose he was prone to either omit unpleasant aspects or stated as facts certain myths circulating in far-right narratives in Germany. While the former is not a problem, since there are other authors focusing on these aspects, the latter is unacceptable. The problem is how to sort out what is proven fact and what is neo-Nazi propaganda. This is what makes Kurowski an unreliable source. A few examples:
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- ÄDA - DÄP Kurowski gives us the typical West German working class version of the war. The memoirs of Von Manstein, Guderian and of course Paul Carell et al. are all in the same vain. Here is Kurowski live [2] When I was in Germany 45 years ago I was warned never ever to argue with these guys. Discussion with people like this is futile. During the war they gunned down 40,000 unarmed civilians in Warsaw and then went to Sunday mass. However Kurowski's books may be of value because he covers the lives of individual soldiers and airmen. A few pearls may be laying in the pile of shit--Woogie10w (talk) 22:18, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
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- The lives of Kurowski's Luftwaffe, U-boat and Panzer aces are triva IMO and probably lacks the notability that we require on Wikipedia. Kurowski's books are the sole source for the Wikipedia bios of these Nazi superheros. I wonder if anyone has checked these articles to see if there are copyright violations here on Wikipedia. --Woogie10w (talk) 12:35, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
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- I went to my bookshelves and consulted the Luftwaffe Databook by Alfred Price published in 1997. The book has an extensive bibliography that does not include Kurowski's books. Listed in this bibliography are Die Ritterkreuzträger der Luftwaffe 1939 - 1945. Band 1: Jagdflieger by Ernst Obermaier, Das waren die deutschen Kampfflieger-Asse 1939-1945 by Georg Brütting and Luftwaffe Fighter Aces by Mike Spick. These books are available on the internet, check for yourself. Why rely on Kurowski and J J Fedorowicz Publishing Inc? --Woogie10w (talk) 14:12, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
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By all means use the works of Alfred Price, Ernst Obermaier, Georg Brütting and Mike Spick for the article on Otto Kittel, but I don't think they cover Kittel's personal background and family status like Kurowski does. How exactly is Kurowski's coverage of Kittel's personal details so controversial that we need to write yards of discussion across multiple boards? --Nug (talk) 06:49, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Kurowski is controversial because he was a apologist for the crimes of Hitler Germany. [3] The man was not a professional historian, he cranked out pulp biographies of Nazi superheros. Does Wikipedia really need these articles which use Kurowski as their sole source published by J J Fedorowicz?--Woogie10w (talk) 12:43, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
"Vandalism"
To Keith-264's question, yes, I have run into opposition before, please see (reposted from my userpage):
- It's "vandalism" to remove sources not used for citations, especially if they are WP:SELFPUBLISH and/or come from non WP:RS right-wing publisher Nation Europa
- Again, "vandalism" to remove content uncited from 2012; it must be restored
- The content, uncited from Mar 2015, was apparently "vandalized", then why go in and add citations and sources?
- Also "vandalism" to remove mythology from Franz Kurowski; compare to this diff (see section: Assessment as tank commander)
Special mentions
- "Same unencyclopedic POV push as on List of World War II Panzer aces from Germany from K.e.coffman." The diff is an article about "the hero of all Nazi fanboys" (per Zaloga), Michael Wittmann.
- Discussion on the Talk page: Talk:Michael_Wittmann#Kurowski
- "Unfounded claim that Kurowski is not WP:RS
- Another problematic article Hans von Luck -- more than 50% of citations are to subject's memoirs, while the WP:OWN editor insists on restoring non-notable details and the subject's interpretation of events
- Editor repeatedly removes "unreliable sources" tag, and gives their reasons on the Talk:8th Panzer Division (Wehrmacht)
Cheers, K.e.coffman (talk) 19:54, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Misterbee1966 was justified in reverting you. There are a load of sources that site this figure for the amount of equipment he (Wittman) was credited with or claimed. There is nothing controversial about this. Wittman's notability is based on his success.
- Accusing other editors of WP:OWN won't win you a debate especially when they are asking you, quite reasonably, to support your claims or offer rational explanation for your edits. Dapi89 (talk) 15:37, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- In regards to the last one of your vandalism list; as noted on the talkpage there, it is not so simple to call that mythology. Numerous sources, falsely, consider Wittmann to be the top scorer of the war. More reliable sources provide lists of the top German tank commanders. In this case, while Kurowski may not be a RS, it was not exactly providing false or mythological information. As noted, George Forty's list attributed to the work of Wolfgang Schneider: 121-138 tank claims, with 132 anti-tank gun claims as well (ranking him fourth, regardless of the lower or higher figure).EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:35, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
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- I objected not to the revert (these happen and are normal part of the collaborative editing process), but to the edit summary: "vandalsim, adding back cited material" – that was after I initiated the discussion on the Talk page and laid out my rationale. Other edit summaries from the list above include: "Vandalism"; "restore vandalised content"; "restore vandalism", etc.
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- I had previously expressed to the editor my disagreement with their labeling my contributions as "vandalism" See: Your most recent edits, the discussion on my Talk page, following my removal of uncited material (tagged from 2011/2012, which should be removed per WP:V) and circular references to other wiki page, containing said uncited content. This was "vandalism" even though the editor went in and added sources to the restored material. Which leads me to believe that there were indeed issues with the material as I encountered it.
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- I do not find these edits summaries to be in the spirit of WP:Civility. I've never included "vandalism" in my edit summaries, except in a case of blatant IP trolling. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:53, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
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The Myth of the Eastern Front
If we are going to debate the merits of the source criticising Kurowski, here are two reviews that I had previously posted to Talk:Otto Kittel:
- Tracing the Resurrection of a Reputation: How Americans Came to Love the German Army, by a professional historian ("The book is a fascinating immersion into a simple but important question: How did the German soldiers who fought on the eastern front during World War Two become hero figures to so many Americans?")
- ...Has a convincing central line of argument but will fail to have any impact on its target, from feldgrau.net, one of the websites of "romances" that the book critiques. Interesting discussion follows.
Cheers, K.e.coffman (talk) 08:57, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
The review by professional historian Kelly McFall is rather positive but points to the limitations of this work. To summarize:
- The authors focus exclusively on the perception of the Eastern Front by the popular culture of the United States. A rather "narrow topic" as the reviewer says. So we are not dealing with a global perspective at all.
- The first section of the book focuses on the prevailing American of Nazi Germany, the Wehrmacht, and the Schutzstaffel in the period during World War II and its immediate aftermath. Their sources involve newspapers, magazines, and other American media of the period.
- The book then covers positive views on the Germans, produced early in the Cold War era. Based on on the changing geopolitical climate, the appearance of German military sources which vindicated their side of the conflict, and support of this effort by the American military. The reviewer finds that "the authors do a thorough job discrediting the claims made by the German officers in their memoirs, which can no longer be viewed as even minimally respectable."
- The problem of this section is that apparently the writers have a rather peculiar understanding of what popular culture is about. The reviewer points that the pro-German sources and memoirs found an audience in "American soldiers and leaders". But the authors do not really establish if the pro-German sources had any effect on the American "public opinion" and popular culture. To quote from the review: "There’s no reference to public opinion polling data, for instance, nor to sales figures nor is there an attempt to do a demographic analysis of readership (admittedly a challenging task). Consequently, it’s more difficult to assess changing perceptions of the German army among ordinary Americans." Basically it is unclear if the average American was even aware these sources existed.
- The third section of the book covers the appearance of a new generation of "devotees of the German army and its campaigns in the east". They included new authors, wargaming fans, and historical reenactment. The reviewers finds this section provides "insightful and exciting research" and that "Smelser and Davies astutely identify a set of sources historians have rarely tapped and survey it thoroughly." They identify the so-called "gurus" of this generation, influential authors and speakers which present "a heroic, sanitized picture of the German army in the east".
- The problem the reviewers identifies with this section is its limits. The authors examine the "iconography and mechanics of war games" of the 1970s and the 1980s, along with their effects on gamers. But they ignore war games that do not involve or focus on the Eastern Front, do not identify how large this community of fans actually is, and fail to establish whether their views "have spread outside their group". They reviewer points that the section ends in the 1980s and does not cover developments of the 1990s and later, such as the appearance of "vast networks of computer gamers" who are also interested in World War II.
- Among the short-comings of this book that the reviewer points out is that it is an examination of popular culture which manages to mostly ignore the influence of movies and television. The reviewer offers as examples the History Channel (which she mention is nicknamed the "Hitler Channel"), and war movies like Schindler’s List [1993] and Saving Private Ryan.
We currently lack an article on the perceptions of Nazi Germany in popular culture. The closest we have is one on Nazis in fiction, that seems to ignore that they have had appearances in the post-war era. This book might be an excellent source to start an article on the topic. But its narrow focus and omissions may render it inadequate as a source for military history. Dimadick (talk) 21:26, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
Alternate history department
Here's more info on these edits. The bulleted items in italics are queries from @Dimadick:, the plain items are mine:
- The following change on the Eugen Müller article, the author of the Commissar Order, made the following change: The article stated (sourced to Hans-Adolf Jacobesn) that the Order was unfavorably viewed by a number of German generals who initially refused to carry it out. Several Wehrmacht commanders apparently asked for the order to be softened, and Adolf Hitler himself declined any modification on the offer. The user changed the article to remove mention on one of the commanders who apparently viewed it unfavorably, because he claims that it contradicts another Wikipedia article. Whether the source supports was not addressed.
Manstein's supposed opposition to the Commissar Order was a myth put forth in Manstein’s memoirs. Please see Erich von Manstein#Trial. This invalidates the rest of the citation to Hans-Adolf Jacobsen; he may be an RS source, but I’ve seen enough sources mis- or selectively quoted to have the confidence to remove the citation. For examples, please see Arthur Nebe #1 & 2, Arthur Nebe #3 and SS Div Das Reich: Heaton.
- The following edit removed a claim in the article on Arthur Nebe that Nebe was purposely exaggerating the numbers of people he had killed when reporting to his superiors. This was not sourced in this paragraph, but this claim is discussed and evaluated later in the same article, with sources.
The claim that Nebe “worked to reduce atrocities committed” is a myth put forth in an effort to white wash his war crimes; please see: Arthur Nebe: Apologetics. Nebe's was the first article of the WWII mythology genre that I encountered, with WP:RS sources inappropriately used to support various legends. Compare the current version with the way I encountered it: Arthur Nebe, Oct 2015: "This began the process of turning Nebe against the Nazis” (in 1933!); "Foreseeing the crimes in which he would be involved, he tried to escape it… ”; "He worked with Henning von Tresckow and Fabian von Schlabrendorff to reduce the atrocities committed…”; "In late 1942 after the Wannsee Conference, Nebe informed his fellow conspirators of the plans for the so-called Final Solution.”
- The following https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Erich_Marcks&type=revision&diff=705900335&oldid=705900269 edit] in the article on Erich Marcks removed a paragraph (sourced by Beevor) that Marcks favored "Spartan" ways (austere, frugal, characterized by self-denial) by refusing to accept servings of whipped cream and protesting that Nazi Germany was starving. The user does not find this sourced claim notable, but is unclear why.
Not notable, second-hand anecdote from an “admiring subordinate”; just because something can be cited, does not mean that it should be included. In this case, it struck me as POV.
- The following edit on the Otto Weidinger article, which mostly lacks sources, changed a paragraph on the post-war fate of Weidinger. The user kept the fact that Weidinger was held in custody without a trial for several years, until finally receiving one in 1951. But the user removed the reasons of the custody.
The reason for his extended custody was not specified, so I removed it per WP:V Additionally, the article stated, twice: "...were considered to be war criminals by virtue of having served in the Waffen-SS..." and "All were charged with a war crime for being volunteers in the Waffen-SS..."; that sounded POV to me, especially as it was not specified what Weidinger was charged with.
- The following link [4] changed a paragraph on the Hunger Plan which was sourced to Adam Tooze. The paragraph stated that the plan to prioritise the availability of food on the areas held by Nazi Germany so that Germans would be fed and the rest of the population would starve was in part motivated by the low amount of food supplies in German-held areas. The editor removed the rational of the plan, claiming that it was POV to publish Nazi self-justifications.
In the context of death from starvation of millions in the occupied countries in the war of extermination, stating, in Wikipedia’s voice, that “Germany was running short of food” struck me as POV.
- The following edit on the Sepp Dietrich article, which is mostly without sources, is an addition rather than a deletion. In a paragraph stating that Dietrich was denied a pension by West Germany, the user stated that the rationale was that war criminals do not get pensions. The problem is that this rationale is also unsourced.
I'll look for a source or remove.
- The edit on the article about the 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich changed a paragraph sourced to Weidinger. The paragraph starts by stating the number of victims in the Oradour-sur-Glane massacre. Then the paragraph stated that Sylvester Stadler, commander of the "Der Führer" regiment, started a court martial investigation about the "incident" because the officer involved was acting without orders. The user removed mention of this investigation as "apologia”.
Weidinger’s account is apologia; pls see SS Div Das Reich: Post-war apologia. I replaced the “investigation” with a statement about a supposed court martial, with “citation needed" tag.
- The following edit on the Hans-Ulrich Rudel article removed a paragraph on the escape of Rudel from Soviet-held territory on foot, because the paragraph was sourced to Rudel's autobiography. I am not certain if this was a reliable source, but the user did not start a review of it.
Obvious apocrypha, apparently coming from subject’s memoirs. The article was subsequently edited by another contributor to relay the circumstances of his capture in more neutral language. Please see Rudel: Defeat on the Eastern Front, 1st para.
- The following edit on the Sepp Dietrich changed a source and shortened a paragraph. A section sourced to Tiemann stated that when Dietrich received an order by Adolf Hitler to tell members of the LSSAH to give up their cuff titles, Dietrich chose to disregard the order and decided that the armbands "...would stay on." The user changed the source to Stein and reduced the sentence to simply say that "Dietrich did not relay the order to his troops." Which changes the meaning of the section.
This was a copy-over from another article, more neutrally worded; please see: Operation_Spring_Awakening#Aftermath.
- The following edit on the Afrika Korps article completely removed a section of the article speaking of the quality of the German forces in Africa which made them stand out. It was sourced to Toppe and Rommel.
This edit was done by another editor, but I obviously agreed with it; otherwise, I would not have put it on my list. Rommel is WP:primary source, edited by Liddel Hart and Beyerlein, two people with a conflict of interest. Please see Liddell Hart: Role in the “Rommel myth”, for example.
- The following edit has nothing to do with World War II. It is the article on the Wiederbewaffnung (rearmament) of West Germany in the 1950s by a decision of the United States. The article stated (sourced to David R. Snyder) that the American rationale was to prevent a Soviet invasion of West Germany. It seems to be standard Cold War thinking, but the editor removed mention of an invasion.
“Further Soviet invasions” implies that there were more than one; in addition, this statement struck me as POV as the literature that I’ve seen does not describe the Soviet advance into Germany as an “invasion".
- The following edit on the Battle of Slivice article, which is mostly unsourced, changed a paragraph on the suicide of von Pückler-Burghaußl. The rationale of the suicide was the Americans refused to accept his surrender and the man feared what would happen to him if he fell to Soviet hands. The user removed all mention that the man feared the Soviets as "POV”.
The language included: "...attempted to storm the Germans and were decimated. ... The American negotiators refused to take the General, so, fearing revenge from the Russians..." These are typical tropes in the "parallel universe" WWII content: "decimated" (poetic language); "Russians" (alternate ethnography); implied "American perfidy", for refusing to accept the surrender of German forces after the agreed upon May 8 deadline, etc.
- The user removed all mentions of the Russian Winter from a number of articles, claiming that it is a myth. Our article on the subject points that the effect of the Winter on warfare is exaggerated but "it is undeniable that severe winter conditions contributed greatly to their [the invasions of Russian-held territory] subsequent troubles.
The article General Winter speaks for itself, while the “coldest winter in 50 years” is a myth. “Brutal Russian winter” trope is largely apologia by the former Werhmacht generals. More on this and on the mythology of the Eastern Front in general, please see this interesting lecture by Jonathan House (Glantz’s co-author for ‘’When Titans Clashed’’): "The Three Alibis", where "Russian winter" is discussed as one of the "alibis" for the supposedly superior German army losing the war.
- "I am somewhat concerned that the user is motivated by his/her own POV rather than following sources. I hope that the changes can be compared to what the available sources actually say, to establish if further changes are needed. With cases involving Nazis, one should keep in mind that they have been subject to demonizing for the last 70 years and dispassionate sources can be rare". Dimadick (talk) 19:28, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
The beauty of Wikipedia is that you can immediately take action if you come across something that is dubious or POV. I’ve not been challenged on the edits above, which tells me that the other editors agreed with me. But if these look problematic after my comments above, let’s discuss. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:18, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
Assessment needed on Draft at AfC
We have a draft at AfC that needs to be interpreted for notability: Draft:Kenneth W. Hunzeker. I would appreciate any help you can give because we don't appear to have any experts in this area that are reviewing at this time. Thank you, LaMona (talk) 19:07, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
- @LaMona: G'day, thanks for posting this. I made a few tweaks, but nothing significant. As a corps commander with the rank of lieutenant general, I'd say that the subject is most probably notable per WP:MILPEOPLE (specifically points 3 and 6), although the article still needs a bit of work. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 23:20, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that the subject is notable, but the article reads a bit like a corporate bio. The editor who created it has disclosed that they're an employee of the firm which now employs Mr Hunzeker. I don't fancy volunteering my time to assist with this paid editor's work promoting their colleague/boss. Nick-D (talk) 23:27, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yes I think he meets the criteria for notability: esp "Deputy Commander of all U.S. forces in Iraq" 2007-10 -- a highly important operation. from Wiki criteria:
- I agree that the subject is notable, but the article reads a bit like a corporate bio. The editor who created it has disclosed that they're an employee of the firm which now employs Mr Hunzeker. I don't fancy volunteering my time to assist with this paid editor's work promoting their colleague/boss. Nick-D (talk) 23:27, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
Marshall E. Cusic Jr.
Is this individual notable? czar 10:04, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think WP:SOLDIER tells us "yes" because he's a flag officer; having said that, I also think the article's a little thin.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 21:41, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Gaarmyvet, is WP:SOLDIER official recognized or used at AfD? Or is it just an indicator that sources should exist? Do you know where I could find sufficient sources to get this one past the general notability guideline? czar 18:13, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- WP:SOLDIER is a valid link to a portion of the notability policy page. There are a bunch of pages in Google, including one for his promotion to rear admiral. On a quick look, he may also be notable as a physician.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 19:47, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Gaarmyvet, is WP:SOLDIER official recognized or used at AfD? Or is it just an indicator that sources should exist? Do you know where I could find sufficient sources to get this one past the general notability guideline? czar 18:13, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
List of X-planes and images
Should the List of X-planes include images? I have started a discussion here. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 15:05, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Luftwaffe moved
A "user" has unilaterally moved Luftwaffe to Luftwaffe (1935–1946) without discussion, and left behind a two-item DAB page. The previous title was used by consensus, so do we need to have a new discussion to restore it, or can an admin just revert the moves? Thanks. - BilCat (talk) 03:46, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have tried to revert. There was no attempt whatsover to discuss such a drastic change Irondome (talk) 03:55, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
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- They also moved German Air Force to Luftwaffe (modern). I reverted it, but he moved it right back. Admin intervention is necessary now. - BilCat (talk) 04:01, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
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- These moves are completely inappropriate. Major changes such as this should be proposed on the article talk page beforehand to seek consensus. An admin should restore these immediately, and the "user" should be given some counseling. - theWOLFchild 04:06, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
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This is getting strange. The user is now adding unexplained POV and Neutrality headers to the top of the German Air Force article, with no explanation on talk page for what his/her issues are. - BilCat (talk) 20:16, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- They have had a similar fetish about the German army according to user history. They seem to dispute that the Nazi era Luftwaffe & Heer ended in 1945, they seem to have a thing about 1946 instead. There is a very legalistic grey area that exists between August 45- October 46, but there is no attempt by user to discuss their grievance on relevant T/P either. It's getting silly. Irondome (talk) 20:20, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- The Allied Control Council decision was seemingly August 26, 1946. I've yanked the following text from Talk:German Army#Wehrmacht: "There is nothing controversial about the date 1946. For reliable sources, see Large, Germans to the Front (1996); Rolf-Dieter Müller et al., Die Wehrmacht: Mythos und Realität (2012); Diehl, The Thanks of the Fatherland (1993); Lockenour, Soldiers As Citizens (2001); Klein, "The Myth...", Baltic Defence Review (2001); and try [5] for numerous sources, mainly but not only in German." The German Army existed for months after May 8, 1945; a million-man+ organisation does not wink out of existence with a surrender. There should probably be redirects with the (1935-46) brackets, but definitely this should all be discussed on the talkpage. Buckshot06 (talk) 20:59, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- That's very helpful, thanks for retrieving that material for the basis of any discussion that may develop. But that is the problem. The user is templating other user's T/P's etc, with no attempt to discuss this. Also an odd claim of POV is being made. Until the user starts dialogue, nothing really can be done. Irondome (talk) 21:07, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- The Allied Control Council decision was seemingly August 26, 1946. I've yanked the following text from Talk:German Army#Wehrmacht: "There is nothing controversial about the date 1946. For reliable sources, see Large, Germans to the Front (1996); Rolf-Dieter Müller et al., Die Wehrmacht: Mythos und Realität (2012); Diehl, The Thanks of the Fatherland (1993); Lockenour, Soldiers As Citizens (2001); Klein, "The Myth...", Baltic Defence Review (2001); and try [5] for numerous sources, mainly but not only in German." The German Army existed for months after May 8, 1945; a million-man+ organisation does not wink out of existence with a surrender. There should probably be redirects with the (1935-46) brackets, but definitely this should all be discussed on the talkpage. Buckshot06 (talk) 20:59, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Apart from whacking him hard after a certain interval (feel free to ask me to consider). I have copied in an earlier discussion at History of the Luftwaffe 33-45 to Talk:Wehrmacht#Actual and legal dissolution of the Wehrmacht as a resource in a more logical place should that be of help. Buckshot06 (talk) 22:18, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Considser yourself asked. This guy is outta control and needs a cold bucket of block-water dumped on him. I reverted one of his silly page moves and politely asked him to propose the move on the talk page. For that he actually templated me for "disruptive editing" (level 2). (Someone else already deleted the warning for me.) He should prove that he's read wp:consensus before being permitted to edit further. - theWOLFchild 22:46, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
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- I've blocked User:Tadeusz Nowak for 48 hours, and left a message at his talkpage inviting him to come here and explain after that period. Buckshot06 (talk) 00:53, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
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Medals again
I have tried to fix up the medals in the article on Alan Shepard, based on this picture of him wearing his ribbons. Can someone help me out here? In particular, what is the ribbon on the right in the second row? Hawkeye7 (talk) 05:18, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- Antarctica Service Medal...? - theWOLFchild 05:31, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
Based on What I'm seeing he has in the picture, I make his awards to be as follows from top to bottom, in order of appearance:
- Distinguished Service Medal, Presidential Unit Citation, Joint Service Commendation Medal
- Asia Pacific Medal w/3? service stars, American Theatre Campaign Medal, American Defense Medal,
- European, Africa, Middle Eastern Campaign Medal, World War II Victory Medal
- National Defense Service Medal, Korea Service Medal, United Nations Medal
- Philippine Defense Medal, Philippine Liberation Medal, ???
Not sure if that helps though, and do take these with a grain of salt - some may be close but not quite. TomStar81 (Talk) 07:54, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
Based on the tables at Awards and decorations of the United States Armed Forces, I can't seem to find another medal that looks like the one you're looking for. The Antarctic one looks like the closest match. But doing a cursory search, I didn't see that Shepard was awarded that one. Does anyone know if he had anything to do with Antarctica during his career? Anyway, the rest of the awards in that photo appear to be as follows;
- Distinguished Service Medal • Distinguished Flying Cross (United States)
- NASA Distinguished Service Medal • Presidential Unit Citation • Antarctica Service Medal (?)
- Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal† (4 stars) • American Campaign Medal† • American Defense Service Medal†
- European-African-Middle Eastern Campaign Medal† • World War II Victory Medal† • Navy Occupation Service Medal
- National Defense Service Medal • Korean Service Medal† • United Nations Korea Medal‡↔
- Philippine Defense Medal‡↔♦ • Philippine Liberation Medal‡ (2 stars) • Navy Rifle Marksmanship Ribbon
notes
- † - obsolete
- ‡ - foreign & int'l
- ↔ - wrong order?
- ♦ - inverted?
Whatever medal that is, it's not currently listed on his page. I've noted the ones that are listed as 'obsolete' or as 'foreign & international'. I'm not sure if his United Nations Korea Medal and Philippine Defense Medal are in the right order and his Philippine Defense Medal seems to be inverted. - theWOLFchild 13:58, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Hawkeye7: - This has intrigued me. I also checked Awards and decorations of the United States government along with the various medal templates, but didn't find anything. I spent some time hunting around the internet trying to find any info linking Shepard with Antarctica, I also tried finding other medals with the same color scheme, but still no luck. One thing however; I think this photo was originally black & white, so I'm wondering if when it was colored, was the medal done incorrectly? Anyway, I guess I'll keep hunting. - theWOLFchild 17:10, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for that. There are actually four campaign stars on the Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal (Leyte, Luzon, Western Pacific, Ryukyus). On the other hand, I have no idea how the European-African-Middle Eastern Campaign Medal was earned. Nor the Presidential Unit Citation; some sources say it was earned on Cogswell, but the Navy records do not indicate that ship earned such a citation. The medal that should be in the second row spot is the NASA Exceptional Service Medal, which records show he was awarded in 1969. There was a long list of awards that year in the wake of the moon landing. (Of course in 2015, with no US space program to speak of and no missions flow, far less awards. (Just kidding.) Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:46, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Per this page, Shepard earned 2 NASA DSMs. I think the image shows that. Doesn't answer the question though. ☺ user:JMOprof ©¿©¬ 22:33, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
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- @Hawkeye7: - Perhaps it wasn't his uniform, just something quickly cobbled together by someone else for the photo. That could explain some of the inconsistencies; the unexplained and/or missing medals, medals in the wrong order, another one upside-down, etc. Did you have any thoughts on the Antarctica one? - theWOLFchild 12:07, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
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I can show that Shepard was in VF-193, that VF-193 was onboard the USS Bon Homme Richard (CV-31), and that the Richard was awarded a PUC. I can't yet put them all together at one time, and I would think VF-193 would not be entitled to share the award of the Richard, but maybe so. Here is another image of Shepard's awards. user:JMOprof ©¿©¬ 15:57, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- That is just a mirror site, basically a copy of his article from here on WP. - theWOLFchild 16:06, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- He was in VF-193, but not on Bon Homme Richard; he served on Oriskany. But that ribbon is definitely the PUC. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:30, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Found it!!!
I found it on eBay. The mysterious Dark Blue/Blue/Sky-Blue/Light Blue/White/Light Blue/Sky-Blue/Blue/Dark Blue medal is the NASA Distinguished Service Medal. Apparently, only three of these were issued (to Crowley, Shepard and Gus Grissom) before they changed to the new type. [6]. Shepard wore both the old type and the new. Anybody know someone who can create a ribbon image for me? Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:37, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Nice job! - theWOLFchild 22:27, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Hawkeye7: - Anybody know someone who can create a ribbon image for me? - there are ribbon rack makers online. Just Google it. You make a customized one, save it and then upload here. Viola! - theWOLFchild 05:43, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
Template:Research help up for deletion
Template:Research help, which is the midst of a pilot we approved, is now up for deletion. (volunteer edit) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 18:15, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
Sir Anthony Hidden, QC
Sir Anthony Hidden , QC has died. Seems to me that he is notable enough to have an article. Mjroots (talk) 19:17, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- As a High Court Judge and a knight he certainly is. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:00, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
My Respects
Hello all parcipitants,
I stumbled upon This WikiProject due to 2 recent RFA's. I want to take the time to commend each and one of you as great contributors of one of Wikipedia's finest section. Even before I joined Wikipedia, I was simply amazed at the depth and breadth the articles have come to be. The effort is superb and outstanding. The knowledge helped me in a few courses back in University, sources i mean. For that, I thank all of you.
Sincerely,
Winterysteppe (talk) 23:19, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
Western Desert Campaign
There have been a lot of mobile edits on these pages in the last few days, they aren't our POV-pusher making a come-back are they? Keith-264 (talk) 18:53, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Do you mean the Commando Supremo website fan Keith? The POV Italian pusher. Irondome (talk) 18:58, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, just noticed that several new editors have been active the last few days and wondered if it fit his modus operandi. I've been busy with other things so haven't had the time to delve further. Keith-264 (talk) 19:16, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Good, thanks for taking a look. Keith-264 (talk) 19:56, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- [7] Just seen this. Keith-264 (talk) 22:57, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- SPI? As it happens me and another editor have been removing the flags from the personalities section as superfluous, considering that there are flags in the box above and the Icons view here. Keith-264 (talk) 02:15, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
There's a RFC here. Mhhossein (talk) 07:08, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
Orders of battle
- Nafziger, G. (2011). Nafziger Orders of Battle Collection: Finding Aid (online ed.). Fort Leavenworth, KS: Combined Arms Research Library (U.S. Army Command and General Staff College). OCLC 528648446. Retrieved 10 March 2016.
This might come in handy.Keith-264 (talk) 09:30, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
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- For the German OB use Mitcham's Hitlers Legions, he cites the the US Army official histories (the Green Books) as well as German sources. Mitcham held a doctorate and was an academic. The German OB on Wikipedia needs to be cleaned up, Mitcham's Hitlers Legions should be the roadmap.--Woogie10w (talk) 10:45, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- It's not perfect, I've found one useful entry which turned out to have a different item under the label and some have typos, so I think a certain caution is necessary. Keith-264 (talk) 12:06, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Thanks, Keith-264. Anyway Mitcham cites his sources, the German work of Tessin, Keilig and Muller-Hildebrand is the bible but way to expensive, I have no access to these sources at the NY Public Library. I do own the Kriegstagebuch des Oberkommandos der Wehrmacht which is cited by Mitcham--Woogie10w (talk) 12:28, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Try niehorster.org too. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 12:31, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
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FAC
Hi, folks. Gudovac massacre has been up for FAC for quite a few weeks now and hasn't gotten much feedback. I'd really appreciate it if some of our contributors would take a look at the article and make recommendations on how it could be further improved. The nomination page can be found at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Gudovac massacre/archive1. Thanks in advance. 23 editor (talk) 17:32, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
Pageview stats
After a recent request, I added WikiProject Military history to the list of projects to compile monthly pageview stats for. The data is the same used by http://stats.grok.se/en/ but the program is different, and includes the aggregate views from all redirects to each page. The stats are at Wikipedia:WikiProject Military History//FA-Class military history articles/Popular pages.
The page will be updated monthly with new data. The edits aren't marked as bot edits, so they will show up in watchlists. You can view more results, request a new project be added to the list, or request a configuration change for this project using the Tool Labs tool. If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know. Thanks! Mr.Z-man 02:26, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Mr.Z-man: Is this a different list from Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Popular pages? If not, then I imagine we'll want to move the list to that title. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 15:08, 11 March 2016 (UTC)