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Vincent
Was mentioned above, and its funny you might ask. Myself and Modernist might take this to FAC in the next six months, and I had thought to ask you for a look at PR. I do know where you are coming from, and having seen a blockbuster in the Hague about 6 years ago, I was left cold; too much van Gogh, and not very interesting up close, esp if they are in the dozens. But individual painting still amaze, he is so expressive in intent and with those broad paint strokes. Ceoil (talk) 11:29, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
- To be clear, I don't actively dislike him, but (as with Leonardo) I find that most of his supposed innovations had already been done just as well by someone else, and I don't get the whole "groundbreaking visionary of unique genius" narrative. I see him as the Impressionist equivalent of Dante Gabriel Rossetti, Andrew Lloyd-Webber or David Beckham (or indeed, William Etty)—undoubtedly greatly technically gifted and a dedicated hard grafter, but whose primary talent was a knack for knowing which elements of other people's work was worth lifting, rather than any great inventiveness in his own right, and who had the (posthumous) good luck to have had a style which meshed well with both pre-WW2 modernism and post-WW2 op-art/pop-art, thus allowing every Warhol-inspired chancer to claim they were part of a Great Artistic Tradition rather than a pack of self-promoting bullshitters. (If you ever want to feel the urge to punch your monitor, follow some of the links here, particularly this guy.)
- Pretty much every artist had a ratio of a dozen duff works for every good one; part of the problem with VVG, I suspect, is that thanks to his name galleries feel obliged to put even his most wretched works on prominent display with a gushing caption about what a work of genius they are, even in the case of unsuccessful doodles which the man himself would probably have preferred be destroyed. Picasso and Turner tend to suffer the same problem, in which every throwaway experiment they ever painted is given pride of place in some provincial gallery because they spent so much on it, nobody dares to point out that the Emperor is naked; look me in the eye and tell me that if Farmhouse Among Trees, The Blue Room or Ullswater from Gobarrow Park had any other signature on them, they wouldn't have promptly been shoved in the storeroom. (I think Farmhouse Among Trees has just taken the place of Southborough, Bromley as my go-to example of a useless-but-undeletable Wikipedia article, too.) ‑ Iridescent 14:26, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
- (adding) More than happy to do the PR on it—just let me know when you think it's ready. You do realise that taking it to the main page will mean fending off a swarm of nerds angry that more prominence isn't given to the fact that he was a Doctor Who character? ‑ Iridescent 14:29, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
- All too true. Kafka Liz (talk) 19:46, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
- Tis a shame you are not a reliable source; the above first paragraph would make an amusing fourth lead paragraph. --- While most art historians believe, Iridescent --- This is one of the reasons I tend towards the 15 and 16 th c's - only the major works are attributed. Such a surviving internal consistency can only compare with the Smiths, who have a rubbish/excellent ratio par none. The same is true of precious few; a poor Bacon is a very poor painting indead. Ceoil (talk) 19:54, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
- Which Smiths, Morrissey & Marr or Mark E & Brix? The same is equally true of both, although at least the latter had the decency to rigidly alternate good and bad to make it easier for future generations to know what to ignore.
- Tis a shame you are not a reliable source; the above first paragraph would make an amusing fourth lead paragraph. --- While most art historians believe, Iridescent --- This is one of the reasons I tend towards the 15 and 16 th c's - only the major works are attributed. Such a surviving internal consistency can only compare with the Smiths, who have a rubbish/excellent ratio par none. The same is true of precious few; a poor Bacon is a very poor painting indead. Ceoil (talk) 19:54, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
- All too true. Kafka Liz (talk) 19:46, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
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- If you want really bad art, try the Wiertz Museum, next door to the European Parliament in Brussels. A 19th-century agreement has bound the Belgian government to display Antoine Wiertz's entire output in perpetuity on this site, despite it being painfully obvious in hindsight that his work is without exception absolutely awful; thus, there's more prime display space in central Brussels granted to this one Victorian hack than to Rubens, Van Dyck or the Breughels, and one of the most valuable pieces of real estate in the world is occupied by an aircraft-hangar sized building filled with art so bad the Germans didn't even bother to loot it.
As far as really bad work by genuinely gifted artists goes, I'd say the winner is this effort by Cézanne in the Walker, which somehow manages to be the tackiest item in a room containing And When Did You Last See Your Father?. No article for AWDYLSYF? Really? ‑ Iridescent 16:42, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
- I meant the other Manc couple, but think Mark E has on and off *decades* rather than albums (you might be thinking of Julian Cope?). Novelty 70s, consistent 80s, dreadful pub rock car park punch up 90s, revitalised 00s, and a spattering of disappointing recent albums. I took a look at the Wiertz commons cat. Christ. For me art now ends at 1599, I think a safe distance from all that later nonsense and rationalisation. Ceoil (talk) 04:53, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Less of the "dreadful pub rock car park punch up 90s"—Shift-Work was by far the best thing he ever made, and if Edinburgh Man had been written by Morrissey or Bowie or been included on the Trainspotting soundtrack, the chin-strokers would to this day be writing earnest "the song that captured the mood of a nation" essays in the Guardian. Cope's alternation was only when he was on Island, when IIRC he was contractually only allowed to include his sub-Wakeman art-wank meanderings on every other album; after he parted ways with Island, everything he did was 'challenging' (although I'd include Interpreter in my personal top 10 albums of all time, and around 50% of You Gotta Problem with Me and 20 Mothers is excellent). Recent events have reminded me that Bowie himself has possibly the strongest claim to a rubbish/excellent ratio—I'd challenge anyone to sit through Outside or Tin Machine without machine-gunning the fast-forward button. ‑ Iridescent 16:59, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- I married mrs Ceoil in part because her large book case had a first edition of Krautrocksampler. Have been tempted for years to redraft Dave Balfe's bio solely based on "Head on"; that strikes me as unfair but might be a bunch of fun. I really tried with Outside, I mean I really tried, and though it can be pleasant, it's hardly satisfying. Agree re Edinburgh Man, grudgingly; the Fall end for me with Curious Orange, their last spectacular album. Saw them a bunch of times in the 90s; euf. I notice the critical tide is turning against Goya since the NG blockbuster, a consensus gathering that his rubbish/excellent ratio was poor. I'm not convinced, well the weaker paintings (ie early portraits) don't distract from the major work, and attribution might have been giddy at times. But its funny how memes develop. Ceoil (talk) 22:14, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- I have first editions of Krautrocksampler and both Antiquarian books, plus a mint vinyl copy of Love Peace & Fuck (redlink? seriously?) for what that's worth (although the latter is mint mainly because it's totally unlistenable and sounds like Motorhead doing an album of Squeeze covers). I gave up on Bowie relatively early on; IMO virtually everything after Heroes was mediocre at best and only sold because it had his name on it.
I have a pet theory that blockbuster retrospectives always lower the artist's standing when it comes to major names. Because they gather together everything they can get hold of, they tend to include a lot of ropey stuff that doesn't normally get much attention, meaning people who only associate the artist with their most accomplished pieces come away thinking "I never realised how much crap he churned out". (For less-well-known artists, the opposite applies; the 2011 Etty retrospective, for instance, made critics realise that there was more to the man than mawkish sentimentality and gratuitous tits, while the Tate's gift shop is still milking the benefits of their PRB blockbuster decades after the event.) ‑ Iridescent 22:42, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- But also people have to sell Sunday newspapers, still the vehicle of the middlebrow, and contrary views shift copy. But yes, blockbusters can backfire, especially with over-hype, which seems to have happened here. At the same time, this is an intelligent, considered, take down. I happen to not agree, but a lot of of it salient to curators, for the reasons of quality control you mention above. Bty, thanks for setting a longing in me that can never now be satisfied; Motorhead doing an album of Squeeze. Them blazing through Orange Juice might also have been fun. RIP Lemmy. Ceoil (talk) 23:13, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- If it's any substitute, here's William Shatner singing Lemmy. (Shatner's Seeking Major Tom is a surprisingly good album, mainly because he managed to rope every Trekkie in the music business into collaborating on it and ended up with something of a genuine supergroup. Although Shatner's finest musical moment is undoubtedly Common People; the only other recording I can think of which produces quite the same "did that really happen?" reaction is this deeply-ironic-in-hindsight exercise.) ‑ Iridescent 16:06, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- But also people have to sell Sunday newspapers, still the vehicle of the middlebrow, and contrary views shift copy. But yes, blockbusters can backfire, especially with over-hype, which seems to have happened here. At the same time, this is an intelligent, considered, take down. I happen to not agree, but a lot of of it salient to curators, for the reasons of quality control you mention above. Bty, thanks for setting a longing in me that can never now be satisfied; Motorhead doing an album of Squeeze. Them blazing through Orange Juice might also have been fun. RIP Lemmy. Ceoil (talk) 23:13, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- I have first editions of Krautrocksampler and both Antiquarian books, plus a mint vinyl copy of Love Peace & Fuck (redlink? seriously?) for what that's worth (although the latter is mint mainly because it's totally unlistenable and sounds like Motorhead doing an album of Squeeze covers). I gave up on Bowie relatively early on; IMO virtually everything after Heroes was mediocre at best and only sold because it had his name on it.
- I married mrs Ceoil in part because her large book case had a first edition of Krautrocksampler. Have been tempted for years to redraft Dave Balfe's bio solely based on "Head on"; that strikes me as unfair but might be a bunch of fun. I really tried with Outside, I mean I really tried, and though it can be pleasant, it's hardly satisfying. Agree re Edinburgh Man, grudgingly; the Fall end for me with Curious Orange, their last spectacular album. Saw them a bunch of times in the 90s; euf. I notice the critical tide is turning against Goya since the NG blockbuster, a consensus gathering that his rubbish/excellent ratio was poor. I'm not convinced, well the weaker paintings (ie early portraits) don't distract from the major work, and attribution might have been giddy at times. But its funny how memes develop. Ceoil (talk) 22:14, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Less of the "dreadful pub rock car park punch up 90s"—Shift-Work was by far the best thing he ever made, and if Edinburgh Man had been written by Morrissey or Bowie or been included on the Trainspotting soundtrack, the chin-strokers would to this day be writing earnest "the song that captured the mood of a nation" essays in the Guardian. Cope's alternation was only when he was on Island, when IIRC he was contractually only allowed to include his sub-Wakeman art-wank meanderings on every other album; after he parted ways with Island, everything he did was 'challenging' (although I'd include Interpreter in my personal top 10 albums of all time, and around 50% of You Gotta Problem with Me and 20 Mothers is excellent). Recent events have reminded me that Bowie himself has possibly the strongest claim to a rubbish/excellent ratio—I'd challenge anyone to sit through Outside or Tin Machine without machine-gunning the fast-forward button. ‑ Iridescent 16:59, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- I meant the other Manc couple, but think Mark E has on and off *decades* rather than albums (you might be thinking of Julian Cope?). Novelty 70s, consistent 80s, dreadful pub rock car park punch up 90s, revitalised 00s, and a spattering of disappointing recent albums. I took a look at the Wiertz commons cat. Christ. For me art now ends at 1599, I think a safe distance from all that later nonsense and rationalisation. Ceoil (talk) 04:53, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- If you want really bad art, try the Wiertz Museum, next door to the European Parliament in Brussels. A 19th-century agreement has bound the Belgian government to display Antoine Wiertz's entire output in perpetuity on this site, despite it being painfully obvious in hindsight that his work is without exception absolutely awful; thus, there's more prime display space in central Brussels granted to this one Victorian hack than to Rubens, Van Dyck or the Breughels, and one of the most valuable pieces of real estate in the world is occupied by an aircraft-hangar sized building filled with art so bad the Germans didn't even bother to loot it.
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- Hmm. Hadnt gotten as far as "Brain Donor", listening through. Cope's singing brings two words to mind; "Well I just got into town about an hour ago". The real hero of the Pulp cover is Mr Rollins whom I would normally distain, although his stand up is wry and lovely. We spoke before about the antiquarian books; when mrs Ceoil first visited I drove here around the Cork/Kerry mountains with that book in the back seat; Knocknakilla, almost on my door step, stood out, Juilian's description annd ridicilious on-site self-portrait brought a smile. Ceoil (talk) 12:26, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
- I never really understand the point of Pulp covers. Like Dylan, the material is so clearly written for a particular voice, it generally sounds phony to me for anyone else to perform it. (That's not a hard-and-fast rule. Dolly Parton did a superb version of After the Gold Rush, which is surely the textbook example of a song which only ought to work when performed by the author.) ‑ Iridescent 19:26, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
- I doubt I have to explain irony to you, but the ricilousness and needleness of the cover speaks for itself. Shatner is a lot of things, but be has always been in on the joke. Cope also has a lot of self awarness, but something seems missing. Bombast and Doors grooves, however well done are still bombast and Doors grooves (thanks Oliver Stone for ruinng my late 80s in the early 90s). Although I will listen to and read him JC the grave, there is a ironymeter alert ringing in the back of my head (have this reservation too with Goya, an uneasy feeling that someting doesnt add up / is over thought. And both throw a lot at the wall, hoping something might stick). The man formed a band with Dave Balf but on the +ve kept Drummond to advise on philiophical matters. Ceoil (talk) 08:12, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
- "IMO virtually everything after Heroes". This came up last night with some old, now former, friends. "Blue Jean" and the base line in Absolute Beginners" is as evil as China Girl; those are a few. I see an indef in your future. Thanks for the all contribs, but still. Ceoil (talk) 10:17, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
- So two songs out of what, twelve albums? (And FWIW, since everybody else is too polite to point out the emperor's new clothes, his final single is a blatant note-for-note lift from What God Wants.)
- If you haven't discovered it already, can I get in a plug for The Vermilion Border (appropriately, the link is red) by Viv Albertine, which vanished without trace on release and seems a little twee at first listen but after a couple of plays seems to become among the favourite albums of everyone who hears it (and which also has a truly stellar cast-list, with virtually every survivor of the punk scene popping up at some point). This one in particular I find a real grower (although she needs to be slapped on the wrist for forming a line-up comprising the remnants of the Clash and the Slits, and not calling it either The Slash or The Clits), and this one would be on autoplay on my userpage were it possible, just to see Americans' reactions when it reaches the line "Tosser, nutter, wanker, cunt". ‑ Iridescent 18:08, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
- I never really understand the point of Pulp covers. Like Dylan, the material is so clearly written for a particular voice, it generally sounds phony to me for anyone else to perform it. (That's not a hard-and-fast rule. Dolly Parton did a superb version of After the Gold Rush, which is surely the textbook example of a song which only ought to work when performed by the author.) ‑ Iridescent 19:26, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
- 2 songs out of 10 Bowie 80s years ain't bad. Listening to Vermilion Border for last hour; drawn in, though Viv never grabbed me before. OTH 'Confessions of a Milf' is a bit hard rock, but Vermilion have that Velves groove I always sought in the 90s, promised by second runners like Death in Vegas, etc. Too Pure 1992 one hit wonders were looking for simlar, and had had one brief wonderful moment. Vivs adronogy reminds me of ghost of; Sally aged well and is still untouchable. Mekons never toured Cork; for us in the late 80s the words "out in the hills above Bradford" were full of mystery and promise (not even joking). For cause, LSD (isn't what it used to be), Walter's Trip, Five Go Down To The Sea? were what kept us going until acid house. Like (we imagined) in places like Bradford! Ceoil (talk) 06:21, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
- And to think Palmolive went off and became a born again. Bit of a shame, that. Kafka Liz (talk) 06:58, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
- Sure, 2/10 are OK, but 8/10 were self-indulgent artwank. (See also Lou Reed and Iggy Pop in the same period.) After Heroes, he lost the spark—even the songs that worked had no particular originality and may as well have been recorded by Phil Collins.
- Any band featuring Jon Langford can do no wrong; I grew up on Great Pop Things. ("Oh Tori, Oh Tori, you're quite like Kate Bush / Kate doesn't gig so you'll do at a push.") The Slits did nothing for me, aside from "Typical Girls"—I know don't speak ill of the dead etc but I found Ari too irritating and pretentious to ever take seriously. Viv solo on the other hand IMO does an excellent job of capturing the original punk spirit of anger without aggressiveness, before the scene became all cartoon violence. I also admire the fact that while she's still angry, she's singing about the things that make a middle-aged woman angry rather than pretending to be a teenager—there's not much sadder* than middle-aged millionaires doing the "Hey kids, smash the state!" routine.
- *Except middle-aged millionaires doing the "Hey kids, smash the state!" routine while flogging butter
- You might also want to give Got No Shadow by Mary Lou Lord a try. It was a total commercial flop, but had a very interesting mix of grungesters, the indie hardcore and psych/prog survivors, and I suspect will one day be rediscovered—a constant stream of Byrds completists and Elliot Smith fans will mean there will always be at least a trickle of a market for it.
- I have a definite soft spot for Palmolive; I thought the Raincoats were hugely underrated (and Looking in the Shadows is a rare example of a comeback album that competes with the originals in terms of quality, although I'm not sure if she appeared on it). I was once introduced to Gina Birch at a party, and was so surprised I just stood there with my mouth open like a 12-year-old girl who'd bumped into One Direction. ‑ Iridescent 11:34, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
- Jon Langford. No words. Much love. Favourite Mekon after my beloved Sally. Leaving a tune that I'm sure you know, and publicly taking my hat off. Wow. Kafka Liz (talk) 12:42, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
- I did say I would ask splutter. No need to be gentle. I know the ref formatting is a mess; I'm sparing the review the misery of teasing out; will have completed by FAC, if the lord spares me. I would greatly appreciate your view otherwise. Ceoil (talk) 23:00, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
- Will do. Will likely be in dribs and drabs, though. ‑ Iridescent 10:10, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
- OK, taken a crack at it. These are all minor nitpicks, other than the fact that I think Cultural depictions of Vincent van Gogh needs either to be worked into the legacy text, or linked very prominently. ‑ Iridescent 12:55, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
- Got it, and thanks. Disagree with none of what you wrote. Working through....Ceoil (talk) 00:10, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
- You might want to see if you can pester Malleus out of retirement for this one. He's still occasionally active, and there's nobody better than him at spotting minor quibbles nobody else noticed. ‑ Iridescent 18:12, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
- I think it's highly unlikely that I'll be contributing to WP again in any significant way ... too much disrespect for those who don't buy into the cult of you know who. The gender gap restriction imposed by ArbCom is intolerable, but the straw that finally broke the camel's back was the removal of IPBE yesterday. Eric Corbett 18:46, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
- You might want to see if you can pester Malleus out of retirement for this one. He's still occasionally active, and there's nobody better than him at spotting minor quibbles nobody else noticed. ‑ Iridescent 18:12, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
- Got it, and thanks. Disagree with none of what you wrote. Working through....Ceoil (talk) 00:10, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
- OK, taken a crack at it. These are all minor nitpicks, other than the fact that I think Cultural depictions of Vincent van Gogh needs either to be worked into the legacy text, or linked very prominently. ‑ Iridescent 12:55, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
- Will do. Will likely be in dribs and drabs, though. ‑ Iridescent 10:10, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
- I did say I would ask splutter. No need to be gentle. I know the ref formatting is a mess; I'm sparing the review the misery of teasing out; will have completed by FAC, if the lord spares me. I would greatly appreciate your view otherwise. Ceoil (talk) 23:00, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
- Jon Langford. No words. Much love. Favourite Mekon after my beloved Sally. Leaving a tune that I'm sure you know, and publicly taking my hat off. Wow. Kafka Liz (talk) 12:42, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
- And to think Palmolive went off and became a born again. Bit of a shame, that. Kafka Liz (talk) 06:58, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
That won't be any kind of personal snub; all advanced permissions (including admin, bureaucrat, checkuser etc) automatically expire if they're not being used, and you were just one of a big batch of editors who had IPBE removed, presumably because whatever rangeblock you'd been caught by has now expired. IPBE is given out very sparingly; there are only 57 editors at the time of writing who have it, and three of those are WMF engineers and presumably using it for testing. (In practice, unless you always edit from a particular institution with its own fixed IP address, IP blocks in the UK are virtually meaningless anyway, since any rangeblock capable of blocking every possible address BT, Sky, Talk Talk etc could dish up to you would mean blocking a decent-sized chunk of Western Europe.) ‑ Iridescent 21:42, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
- I can't remember the last time I used rollback. Will that also be stripped by the same logic? Eric Corbett 23:20, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
- (talk page stalker) Almost certainly not. IPBE is designed as a short-term fix for a problem, which is expected to be removed once the problem has gone. There's no suggestion of misuse being a factor in that big batch of IPBE removals. The situation is markedly different with rollback, where (alleged) abuse of the function is the usual reason for removal. I don't actually see the point of rollback, as 99% of the time it's as quick to manually restore the last good version, while Twinkle's rollback functions allow more customisation of the message if you wish to leave one. --RexxS (talk) 00:51, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
- What RexxS said. Wikipedia has many abuses, but this isn't one of them, it's just a piece of routine maintenance. If you do need IPBE for some reason—usually if you're editing from a shared IP address where some of the other users are vandals (typically universities or libraries)—then I'm sure they'd give it back without questioning, since even your most dedicated enemies wouldn't claim you're secretly logging out to vandalise Wikipedia. ‑ Iridescent 11:28, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- (talk page stalker) Almost certainly not. IPBE is designed as a short-term fix for a problem, which is expected to be removed once the problem has gone. There's no suggestion of misuse being a factor in that big batch of IPBE removals. The situation is markedly different with rollback, where (alleged) abuse of the function is the usual reason for removal. I don't actually see the point of rollback, as 99% of the time it's as quick to manually restore the last good version, while Twinkle's rollback functions allow more customisation of the message if you wish to leave one. --RexxS (talk) 00:51, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
William Etty
Congratulations on the bio passing FAC. It's certainly a model for similar articles to follow. Still working up the courage to ask Eric re VvG. Think I'll have to be shameless with this one. Ceoil (talk) 16:49, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
:Thanks—I'm not sure it's actually that useful a model for biographies, as usually the preference is to hive off as much as possible into subpages to keep the main bio at a reasonable size. This is something of a special case, as I thought it made more sense for readers to see his progression from "last of the 18th century English School" to "first of the Pre-Raphaelites" (and arguably "first of the Impressionists" as well; if Mlle Rachel were attributed as a early work by Van Gogh nobody would blink). ‑ Iridescent 15:39, 21 February 2016 (UTC)- a special case in more ways than you might think ;) I was thinking more structurally, but first of the Pre-Raphaelites is interesting, given his bastardisation of the romantic sweep, or one could argue taking it to its logical conclusion while staying within the confines of academic painting. Perhaps. Your on your own though with "first of the Impressionists", and be prepared to fight on the beaches, and in the fields and in the streets... The colours and patterns in the dress of Mlle Rachel are certainly very forward thinking and modern, but the modelling (and pose) is 15th c, ie deliberately trad ar (note i think that's a good thing and believe painting went to hell in a handbag around 1915). Ceoil (talk) 17:17, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
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- "First of the Pre-Raphaelites" isn't really all that out-there; there's a brief note about it in the last section of the bio. The original PRB, especially Millais, were huge fans of his idea of combining romanticism and realism, and of using the bright Venetian palette to paint non-Venetian topics. Unfortunately for his reputation, most of his well known stuff in later years was neo-Romantic hackwork to pay the bills, while his experimental proto-impressionist work like the Givendale paintings languished in his flat. Plus, he had the bad luck to die in 1849, just as the whole Magic Realism thing was starting to get off the ground. ‑ Iridescent 19:24, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
- This is certainly one of the best articles I have read in a long while. You've done a fantastic job, thank you. CassiantoTalk 16:07, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Thanks! The ironic thing is that I don't particularly like much of Etty's work, and find a lot of it absolutely awful, but I do think his is an important story that tends to get left out of the "official" narrative of English art history. ‑ Iridescent 13:36, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
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- I must agree with that. What's even more ironic, I find, is that the more popular the person is in their professional life, the duller they are in their private one. CassiantoTalk 15:55, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Do you mean, popular among their friends, or popular with audiences? If the latter, I'm not sure it necessarily applies to painters (although in my experience it certainly applies to musicians); a lot of the crowd-pulling names like Picasso, Van Gogh, Rossetti and Dali had decidedly unusual personal lives (and that's before we get to Dadd or Caravaggio). The problem in Etty's case is that he was so shy, he rarely socialised so he doesn't appear in other people's memoirs or contemporary gossip columns, and thus we don't know much about his personal life other than what's in his surviving personal correspondence. ‑ Iridescent 11:44, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
I think we've jumped the shark...
Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/Hitler Diaries Ealdgyth - Talk 21:36, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
- My views on the April Fools main page are well known. It serves no useful purpose, confuses the hell out of readers in those countries which don't observe it or where April Fools is only observed until noon, and regularly veers onto the wrong side of tasteless, with anyone complaining about it being subjected to a barrage of abuse for being a killjoy, or accused of stupidity for not getting the joke; just because the Defenders of the Wiki revert every complaint from Talk:Main Page, doesn't mean the complaints aren't genuine. To add an extra layer of tastelessness, April 1 is also the anniversary of the start of the Nazi campaign against the Jews. I've added my opposition, not that it will make the slightest difference. (If you really care strongly and don't mind running to mommy, I imagine the WMF would veto it instantly if Jimbo were made aware, since they have quite enough bad publicity to deal with right now. The downside of involving Lila or Jimmy is that a comet tail of loons would follow, and the discussion would likely turn into contest between JIDF and the information-wants-to-be-free hardliners over who can round up the most users on Reddit.) ‑ Iridescent 15:58, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
London bridges
How many bridges were there across the Thames in London itself in 1813 (ie before Waterloo, Southwark & Vauxhall)? London B, Blackfriars Bridge and Battersea, yes. Anything else? Johnbod (talk) 16:41, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
- Depends how you define "London itself"; Kingston Bridge is medieval. Richmond Bridge, Kew Bridge and Putney Bridge were already in place by 1813; sure, people at the time wouldn't have considered them "London", but they wouldn't have considered Battersea as London at that time either. Vauxhall Bridge would have been under construction then, but not yet opened. ‑ Iridescent 19:46, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
- I was taking Battersea (or rather the north side of the river) as just about in London then. So just the three then. Thanks. The List of London bridges unfortunately only gives the dates of the current structures. Johnbod (talk) 13:45, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
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- If this is in relation to artworks, there's a good chance anything labelled as "a bridge in London" is actually Richmond rather than one of the London bridges. The Richmond riverside has always been just as heavily lined with buildings as London, owing to the historic presence of the royal complex, but the geography meant it was a lot easier for an artist to sit and paint without being either pestered by curious onlookers, or splattered with mud and filth.
Other than London Bridge itself, which is really sui generis, London came very late to the bridge party. Lingering concerns about revolting Kentish peasants and French invaders meant the authorities were reluctant to build anything that would lay Westminster open to attack, while traffic congestion and bridge tolls meant the idea never really met with much enthusiasm; well into the 19th century, it was quicker and cheaper to cross the Thames by ferry than to brave the bridges. They only really started to be built on a large scale after the arrival of the railways, which were disgorging too many people into Southwark for the ferries to handle. (Many of the earlier ones, like Battersea and Vauxhall, were built to generate traffic for pleasure-gardens on the Surrey bank, rather than to address any pressing need of commuters.) A surprising number* of London ferries are still operational and yet to be replaced by bridges or tunnels. ‑ Iridescent 22:17, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Well four, but anything more than one is surprising; Rotherhithe, Woolwich, Hammerton's and Hampton in London, plus Tilbury and Shepperton just outside the boundary on either side.
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- No, it was for Regency architecture, thanks! They got 3 new ones done in the 10 years after Waterloo. Johnbod (talk) 03:05, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
- If you'll forgive a bit of OR, it was probably as much to do with providing work for a horde of demobbed squaddies, as any pressing need to cross the river. (Bear in mind that most of these 19th century bridges were crude contraptions that could barely be dignified with the term "architecture", and which had to be replaced fairly quickly once their limitations became obvious. Old Battersea Bridge and Old Wandsworth Bridge in particular looked less like major infrastructure projects, than like something the Red Army would build to cross the Vistula under shellfire. The only early bridges that really warrant the term "architecture" were Richmond Bridge and Rennie's London Bridge.) ‑ Iridescent 00:13, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
- All 3 were private enterprise toll bridges, though I think one at most made a profit. Sir John Summerson thinks all 3 "were first-rate examples of the art and science of the engineer", which is giving with one hand and taking away with the other, perhaps, and is very enthusiastic about Waterloo Bridge - "sheer magnificence". Johnbod (talk) 04:39, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
- If you'll forgive a bit of OR, it was probably as much to do with providing work for a horde of demobbed squaddies, as any pressing need to cross the river. (Bear in mind that most of these 19th century bridges were crude contraptions that could barely be dignified with the term "architecture", and which had to be replaced fairly quickly once their limitations became obvious. Old Battersea Bridge and Old Wandsworth Bridge in particular looked less like major infrastructure projects, than like something the Red Army would build to cross the Vistula under shellfire. The only early bridges that really warrant the term "architecture" were Richmond Bridge and Rennie's London Bridge.) ‑ Iridescent 00:13, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
- No, it was for Regency architecture, thanks! They got 3 new ones done in the 10 years after Waterloo. Johnbod (talk) 03:05, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
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- If this is in relation to artworks, there's a good chance anything labelled as "a bridge in London" is actually Richmond rather than one of the London bridges. The Richmond riverside has always been just as heavily lined with buildings as London, owing to the historic presence of the royal complex, but the geography meant it was a lot easier for an artist to sit and paint without being either pestered by curious onlookers, or splattered with mud and filth.
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I once idly wondered if I'd actually crossed all the London bridges, well, the ones that are generally accessible (maybe even all the tunnels under the river as well!). Going by List of bridges in London, it seems I've managed to avoid ever going across Richmond Lock and Footbridge, but everything else from the bottom of the list upwards. From Putney Bridge to Grosvenor Bridge I am less sure. Some of the railway bridges I'll have crossed in a train without ever realising it. From Westminster eastwards, I think I've walked across all the ones that it is possible to walk across. Looking at the view from the bridges (depending on the weather) is nice for a number of them. List of crossings of the River Thames is insane. Carcharoth (talk) 02:59, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
- I wouldn't trust List of crossings of the River Thames as just on a quick glance I can see the Twickenham Tunnel missing (closed to the public for decades, but you can still see the entrance buildings at either end between Twickenham Bridge and the railway bridge). I think I've been across all the publicly-open ones in Greater London at some point, other than a couple of the ferries. I did at one point have a plan to get all the river crossings in London up to GA/FA, but was discouraged at the prospect of having to clean up Tower Bridge, which is both so badly written it would need to be wiped and rewritten from scratch, and has accumulated a decade's worth of holiday snaps, the removal of any of which would prompt howls of protest. (Richmond Lock and Footbridge is worth crossing, as it has spectacular views. Walking up from Richmond, over the lock, and along the Thames to Isleworth and Syon Park is something of an undiscovered gem of a walk.) ‑ Iridescent 20:09, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
The Destroying Angel
I was looking for an inline citation on the above article to support the following "Etty had become famous for nude paintings, and acquired a reputation for tastelessness, indecency and a lack of creativity. With The Destroying Angel he hoped to disprove his critics with an openly moral piece." - I can't see one. I know nothing about the artist/article, so I am in no position to judge the accuracy of the above statement - however for such strong wording, I'm pretty sure an inline citation would be best, if this is uncited or based on a citation that is hiding elsewhere in the article, it does not give that statement much credibility. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:13, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
- Everything you mention is sourced to reliable sources (and could easily be sourced to a dozen more, since Etty is probably the most famous nude painter in history): he became famous for painting nude figures in biblical, literary and mythological settings, many critics condemned his repeated depictions of female nudity as indecent, "[Etty] should not persist, with an unhallowed fancy, to pursue Nature to her holy recesses. He is a laborious draughtsman, and a beautiful colourist; but he has not taste or chastity of mind enough to venture on the naked truth.", Needled by repeated attacks from The Morning Chronicle on his supposed indecency, poor taste and lack of creativity, Etty determined to produce a work that would prove his detractors wrong., The result [of the desire to respond to accusations of indecency and tastelessness] was The Destroying Angel. I'm not sure what the issue is here. If you're complaining that the fact is cited in the body text rather than the lead, then you're misunderstanding how articles at FA level are formatted, as the only statements that should be cited in the lead are direct quotations, and facts which don't appear in the body text. ‑ Iridescent 18:20, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
My only issue was that I was looking for a source, next to the content. And yes, I have zero understanding how articles are formatted. I was viewing it as a reader, not an editor. I don't dispute the accuracy of the statement, I have no knowledge of this artist, or art in general. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 07:12, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- That's not how Wikipedia works; "every statement needs a source next to it" is a misconception. The lead is an executive summary of the article which follows it, and the article is where the material is sourced; the only things which should be sourced in the lead are direct quotations, content which for whatever reason doesn't exist in the article itself, and "statements about living persons that are challenged or likely to be challenged". You shouldn't be removing material from a lead for being "unsourced" unless it falls into one of those three categories; whether you're familiar with the topic or not is irrelevant. ‑ Iridescent 07:50, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- I was under the impression that in the lead, all content that was likely to be challenged required an inline citation, while "statements about living persons that are challenged or likely to be challenged" required inline citations every time they were mentioned. Was I wrong? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 08:20, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- You are indeed quoting from the first paragraph of WP:LEADCITE (although BLP issues are clearly irrelevant here) - but if you read on, you will see that the second paragraph says "Because the lead will usually repeat information that is in the body, editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material. Leads are usually written at a greater level of generality than the body, and information in the lead section of non-controversial subjects is less likely to be challenged and less likely to require a source". The sentences in question clearly fall into the category of material not requiring inline citation in the lead. BencherliteTalk 08:30, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- Your comments made a lot of sense...right up to the point where I read "non-controversial" - making statements, that basically ripped apart all credibility of someone's life work, is "non-controversial"? On that point, I think we would have to disagree. This isn't a case of some harmless comment that will never realistically be disputed. Anyway, it needs a solution. Option 1. Put a citation in the lead. Option 2. Remove the disputed content. I'd personally suggest option 2. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 10:58, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- OK, you're starting to cross well over the line separating "good faith misunderstanding of how Wikipedia operates" from "intentional disruption". You do not get to unilaterally make up policies and then demand they be applied, let alone a policy that would affect every article on Wikipedia; if you want the Manual of Style changed, head on over to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Lead section and start an RFC, having a thorough read of the overwhelming opposition last time someone proposed this, and bear in mind that MOS issues are subject to discretionary sanctions and this kind of posturing is unlikely to go down well.
The material you removed (Etty had become famous for nude paintings, and acquired a reputation for tastelessness, indecency and a lack of creativity. With The Destroying Angel he hoped to disprove his critics with an openly moral piece.) is (a) utterly non-controversial, given that nobody then or now—including Etty himself—disputes that he had this reputation or that TDA was intended to address it, and (b) is already cited. The idea that by explaining that TDA was painted as a response to critics Wikipedia is somehow "causing harm" (just who you think is being harmed, you don't specify) is ludicrous. ‑ Iridescent 11:29, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- OK, you're starting to cross well over the line separating "good faith misunderstanding of how Wikipedia operates" from "intentional disruption". You do not get to unilaterally make up policies and then demand they be applied, let alone a policy that would affect every article on Wikipedia; if you want the Manual of Style changed, head on over to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Lead section and start an RFC, having a thorough read of the overwhelming opposition last time someone proposed this, and bear in mind that MOS issues are subject to discretionary sanctions and this kind of posturing is unlikely to go down well.
- Your comments made a lot of sense...right up to the point where I read "non-controversial" - making statements, that basically ripped apart all credibility of someone's life work, is "non-controversial"? On that point, I think we would have to disagree. This isn't a case of some harmless comment that will never realistically be disputed. Anyway, it needs a solution. Option 1. Put a citation in the lead. Option 2. Remove the disputed content. I'd personally suggest option 2. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 10:58, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- Why he painted it, is not controversial. The tone of the lead is unsuitable. "Etty had become famous for nude paintings, and acquired a reputation for indecency. With The Destroying Angel he hoped to disprove his critics with an openly moral piece." would be far more suitable. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 11:37, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- Stop digging. None of "tastelessness, indecency and a lack of creativity" is in any way controversial, since those are the three things for which Etty was famous, and they're directly relevant here since TDA was an explicit attempt to be tasteful, an explicit (albeit questionably successful) attempt to show nudes in a non-indecent manner, and painted from imagination explicitly to address concerns about his lack of creativity. Removing this would remove the context as to why he painted a work which is significantly different from his other work. ‑ Iridescent 11:47, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- You are indeed quoting from the first paragraph of WP:LEADCITE (although BLP issues are clearly irrelevant here) - but if you read on, you will see that the second paragraph says "Because the lead will usually repeat information that is in the body, editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material. Leads are usually written at a greater level of generality than the body, and information in the lead section of non-controversial subjects is less likely to be challenged and less likely to require a source". The sentences in question clearly fall into the category of material not requiring inline citation in the lead. BencherliteTalk 08:30, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- I was under the impression that in the lead, all content that was likely to be challenged required an inline citation, while "statements about living persons that are challenged or likely to be challenged" required inline citations every time they were mentioned. Was I wrong? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 08:20, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm sorry that I don't approve of including controversial content that supports your theory. We add content because it is notable, we don't add content just to support a theory. I assume you know that. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 11:54, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- This is not "a theory". Do you even know who William Etty was? (You may want to read his biography on even the staid ODNB and count how many times the word "indecency" appears.) It's not inappropriate to explain that an artist who was notorious for his tastelessness was accused of tastelessness, nor that something he explicitly painted from imagination to address an alleged lack of creativity was painted from imagination to address a perceived lack of creativity. ‑ Iridescent 11:59, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- Then, I'm guessing if his tastelessness was so well known and well documented, a few decent sources wouldn't be hard to find, and most certainly wouldn't destroy the entire article if one was in the lead. In all seriousness, would it hurt to have one (more) citation in the lead? There are already some there, they were deemed suitable, is this situation any different? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 12:05, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- There is no need for that citation in the lede, however. The two citations in the lede currently are there to reference the alternative names (which are not cited elsewhere in the article). At this point, you've had things explained to you several times and been pointed to places where you can change policy. Continuing to beat a dead horse is just that... verging into disruptive territory. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:34, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- No, going on a massive edit war or making personal attacks would be verging into disruptive territory. Just because I do not agree with someone, and voice my opinion, does not equal disruption. Snide implications regarding dead horses are probably more disruptive. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 13:42, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- I"m sorry you thought my comment was snide. It was not meant that way - but nowhere did I say you were disruptive. I said you were verging into disruptive territory. You're certainly welcome to voice your opinion. When that opinion continues to be voiced although many explanations for why that opinion does not apply in a particular case have been given, then that behavior can begin to look like disruption. I'm failing to see personal attacks in this section, nor in the talk page. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:03, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- No, going on a massive edit war or making personal attacks would be verging into disruptive territory. Just because I do not agree with someone, and voice my opinion, does not equal disruption. Snide implications regarding dead horses are probably more disruptive. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 13:42, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- There is no need for that citation in the lede, however. The two citations in the lede currently are there to reference the alternative names (which are not cited elsewhere in the article). At this point, you've had things explained to you several times and been pointed to places where you can change policy. Continuing to beat a dead horse is just that... verging into disruptive territory. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:34, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- I guess I've been growing a rather thick hide recently when dealing with content disputes, so perhaps the snideness was in my imagination. Either way, I'm pretty sure I have nothing content related to add to this issue and the article in question has becoming rather tiring, so I have moved on. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 14:12, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- Then, I'm guessing if his tastelessness was so well known and well documented, a few decent sources wouldn't be hard to find, and most certainly wouldn't destroy the entire article if one was in the lead. In all seriousness, would it hurt to have one (more) citation in the lead? There are already some there, they were deemed suitable, is this situation any different? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 12:05, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for being one of Wikipedia's top medical contributors!
- please help translate this message into the local language
The Cure Award | |
In 2015 you were one of the top 300 medical editors across any language of Wikipedia. Thank you from Wiki Project Med Foundation for helping bring free, complete, accurate, up-to-date health information to the public. We really appreciate you and the vital work you do! Wiki Project Med Foundation is a user group whose mission is to improve our health content. Consider joining here, there are no associated costs, and we would love to collaborate further. |
Thanks again :) -- Doc James along with the rest of the team at Wiki Project Med Foundation 03:59, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
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- In fairness, that I'm in the top 300 is more an indication of the decline in editor numbers than anything else. My medical articles tend to be obscure 19th-century case studies like Daniel Lambert, and WP:MED would probably happily disown them for bringing the project into disrepute. ‑ Iridescent 19:59, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
Some stroopwafels for you!
for comment at Public Art of Barcelona. the tagspam continues, (he should have used the cleanup-translation tag.)
i'm afraid they are training a new generation of NPP templaters, maybe we should divert the humans toward collaboration, that is if there are any left. cheers Duckduckstop (talk) 18:33, 3 March 2016 (UTC) |
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- I have a particular dislike of tag-bombers who don't explain what they think the issue is and don't even make a token effort to fix it themselves. By all means tag sections you think are problematic if you think there's a genuine issue and don't feel you can fix it yourself, but explain what the issue is and why you're not doing it yourself. Looking at his contributions, it looks to be someone who's just discovered automated tools and is over-enthusiastically machine-gunning them to spray drive-by tags, reverts and messages. In my experience, people like this generally settle down after a couple of weeks of their own accord, and calling them out on their actions just makes them angry or upset as they genuinely think they're being helpful. ‑ Iridescent 15:44, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- it's perpetual september. i see some idea labs projects to notify them to check and clear their old tags, wonder how that will go? it's the same old dictation version of collaboration. doesn't improve the place much. we should be training the spammers to take up teahouse, but it's too far from the first person shooter mentality. Duckduckstop (talk) 20:34, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have a particular dislike of tag-bombers who don't explain what they think the issue is and don't even make a token effort to fix it themselves. By all means tag sections you think are problematic if you think there's a genuine issue and don't feel you can fix it yourself, but explain what the issue is and why you're not doing it yourself. Looking at his contributions, it looks to be someone who's just discovered automated tools and is over-enthusiastically machine-gunning them to spray drive-by tags, reverts and messages. In my experience, people like this generally settle down after a couple of weeks of their own accord, and calling them out on their actions just makes them angry or upset as they genuinely think they're being helpful. ‑ Iridescent 15:44, 4 March 2016 (UTC)