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Noticeboard archives
Contents
- 1 User:Jonadabsmith engaging in harassment?
- 2 User:Maybeparaphrased: New editor stubbornly resistant to learning/following/caring about the rules. What to do?
- 3 Request lifting of Topic Ban of DrChrissy
- 4 Dismissal of U.S. attorneys controversy - Whitewash of a political article 9 years after the fact?
- 5 Harrassment by User:Sir Sputnik
- 6 European Graduate School
- 7 User:Mhhossein and SaffV reported for harassment
- 8 User:Yossimgim
- 9 Solaire the knight and Trolls from Olgino
- 10 Current events pages
- 11 173.174.98.84 and 32.97.110.60 edit warring in Mexican free-tailed bat
- 12 Wildly disruptive User:Deffrman
- 13 Rangeblock needed to stop block evasion by Cnslrken2
- 14 User:Wikinewseditor at the Kolkata Derby article
- 15 Legal threats and disruptive edits by User:MehranRazi
- 16 IP-hopping troll, continued
- 17 Search engine submission
- 18 Legal threats
- 19 What to do about tens of thousands of unnecessary parser functions on user talk pages?
- 20 User:ApprenticeFan (me) about edits in The Amazing Race
- 21 Reverting removal of racism
- 22 Massive reverting of edits plus WP:OWN
- 23 Distributive editor sock pupertry investigation without progress , disruptive edits and 3RR ignorance continue.
- 24 March 2016 User:Springee canvassing
- 25 Competence and the meaning of the word "plurality"
- 26 File upload issues
- 27 Request for Community Input concerning a Series of Potentially Unfortunate Edits and their Contributors
- 28 IP here to troll gay sex subjects
- 29 WP:Threats
- 30 User:Adamstraw99 is making personal attacks,and user space harassment
- 31 Disruptive Editing by SchroCat and Tim riley
- 32 Personal attacks on talk page in Hebrew
- 33 Disruptive Editing by Lewisthejayhawk
- 34 Disruptive editing to the F1 project
- 35 BillieKing
- 36 QuackGuru ongoing disruptive behavior at Peyton Manning
- 37 Promotional material by IP
- 38 User talk with Wikipedia Policy on the page
- 39 WP:Reference Desk/Humanities
- 40 Latest IP's of a troll
User:Jonadabsmith engaging in harassment?
Jonadabsmith (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
I am rather concerned about this comment by Jonadabsmith. I quote: "Dr Harry Potts, what time would you like us to call round your office on campus for a meeting to discuss your personal attacks on students you are meant to encourage to embrace new political ideas and not silence?". Cordless Larry (talk) 20:58, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- That Dr. is the real name of User:Bondegezou, a fact which if not immediately shown on his User page is easily accessed via external link. I'm not sure how that fits into any "outing" calculation. More broadly, Jonadabsmith is unhappy about a couple of AfDs, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Luke Nash-Jones and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/London Students for Britain, and his comments at the AfDs and on the article Talk pages would appear to exceed the usual boundaries of WP:NPA and WP:AGF among others. JohnInDC (talk) 21:19, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- I don't think it counts as outing, given that Bondegezou has linked to his work profile from his user page. I was more concerned about Jonadabsmith's suggestion that he wants to pay him a visit at work. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:23, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think that's right. But addressing a person by his / her real (and full!) name rather than his User name adds, IMHO, a bit more menace to the comment. I don't know what kind of an actual threat it amounts to but it certainly seems designed to intimidate. JohnInDC (talk) 21:26, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think the assessment here is correct, but agree it is very problematic behavior. Does seem menacing. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:45, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think that's right. But addressing a person by his / her real (and full!) name rather than his User name adds, IMHO, a bit more menace to the comment. I don't know what kind of an actual threat it amounts to but it certainly seems designed to intimidate. JohnInDC (talk) 21:26, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- I don't think it counts as outing, given that Bondegezou has linked to his work profile from his user page. I was more concerned about Jonadabsmith's suggestion that he wants to pay him a visit at work. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:23, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
If Bondegezou places his name and place of work on his profile, he is hardly seeking to hide such, and it is hardly unreasonable for a student of a university to ask to visit a known professor at the same establishment to resolve some difference. I stress, that there was merely a request to visit, not an actual visit. Your implication that such would involve harassment is ridiculous. A friendly chat over a cup of tea is likely to be far more productive than people playing keyboard warriors while shouting acronyms as if they are the Supreme Court. User: Jonadabsmith —Preceding undated comment added 21:29, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- Jonadabsmith, regardless of the outcome of this discussion, no amount of chatting with Bondegezou is likely to change the outcome of the AfDs. Deletion is not in the gift of Bondegezou and the decision will be taken by consensus. What you need to do is establish the notability of the subjects, not attack other editors for supposedly being biased. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:33, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
Cordless Larry what would you like me to do to improve the notability of the subjects? More newspaper references? Jonadabsmith
- Please see the pages WP:Golden rule and WP:RELIABLE, Jonadabsmith. Those will help you understand what is required. In-depth national newspaper coverage of the subjects would help, yes. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:39, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
Jonadabsmith would also do well to read the second and fifth bullet points of Wikipedia:No personal attacks#What is considered to be a personal attack? -- as others have hinted above, he or she seems to be breaching this policy. MPS1992 (talk) 22:19, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- The comment by Jonadabsmith (talk · contribs) (diff) is an outrageous attack on an editor. An immediate and complete repudiation may be sufficient, but the attack combined with the WP:SPA nature of the account suggest that a WP:NOTHERE block is warranted. Johnuniq (talk) 22:25, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
Comment Their constant bringing-up of Bodegezou's political leanings, which they make clear, in the AFD as if it invalidates the fact that most of the sources are from non reliable sources is a clear sign of trying to muddy the AFD. This is unacceptable. Blackmane (talk) 00:31, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
This isn't even remotely ambiguous. The comment in question includes clear personal attacks, an inability to argue the content issue in question without going after the character of another editor, and a threat to extend harassment over this editing issue into the off-project work environment of a contributor. It's quite probable that the SPI will turn something up on this SPA, but regardless, the evidence for WP:NOTHERE seems pretty absolute. Someone should simply take this directly to an admin. Or we can always make a proposal right here. I know what my !vote will be. Snow let's rap 05:49, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Snow Rise: Yes, all the socks are confirmed to one another and possible to the master. GABHello! 23:01, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
- I don't think that outcome comes as a shock to anyone. I am a little surprised that Bbb23 decided only to block the sock accounts and left it to another admin to decide whether to also block the likely master--but hopefully another admin will be along shortly to attend to that. It seems a pretty open and shut case of disruption and WP:NOTHERE, so the only thing I feel needs to be reiterated at this point is that Jonadabsmith can/should be blocked for the socking or for the blatant harassment/threats--and hopefully the block length will reflect the aggregate circumstances of the disruption. Personally, I'd fully support an indef in this instance, given this is clearly an SPA here to further a specific agenda--even if it means disrupting process through puppetry (generally grounds for an indef in its own right), to say nothing of threatening the off-wiki professional interests/personal well-being of a contributor. Snow let's rap 23:24, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
- I agree. At the very least, they should be blocked for the duration of the AFD, as suggested. GABHello! 23:34, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
- User:Bondegezou, I'll pop over from the IHR if you need someone to watch your back mate. Bloomin' undergrads
11:36, 6 March 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.68.139.189 (talk) 11:36, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- User:Bondegezou, I'll pop over from the IHR if you need someone to watch your back mate. Bloomin' undergrads
- I agree. At the very least, they should be blocked for the duration of the AFD, as suggested. GABHello! 23:34, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
- I don't think that outcome comes as a shock to anyone. I am a little surprised that Bbb23 decided only to block the sock accounts and left it to another admin to decide whether to also block the likely master--but hopefully another admin will be along shortly to attend to that. It seems a pretty open and shut case of disruption and WP:NOTHERE, so the only thing I feel needs to be reiterated at this point is that Jonadabsmith can/should be blocked for the socking or for the blatant harassment/threats--and hopefully the block length will reflect the aggregate circumstances of the disruption. Personally, I'd fully support an indef in this instance, given this is clearly an SPA here to further a specific agenda--even if it means disrupting process through puppetry (generally grounds for an indef in its own right), to say nothing of threatening the off-wiki professional interests/personal well-being of a contributor. Snow let's rap 23:24, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
Thanks to everyone for bringing this to ANI. It did feel quite WP:HArass-y. I also note the following behaviour:
- edit-warring at both London Students for Britain ([1], [2], [3], [4] and [5] fail WP:3RR, for example) and Luke Nash-Jones;
- lying about conflict of interests in both articles: see User talk:Jonadabsmith#Conflict of interest; and
- confirmed sock/meatpuppetry: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Jonadabsmith, with puppets blocked, but awaiting action on the master account.
Jonadabsmith hasn't edited since Friday night, although there's been weird stuff on both articles since: [6], [7]. The two AfDs are still open, but given that only Jonadabsmith + puppets have voted to keep and numerous editors have voted for delete, I think they are both WP:SNOWable at this point!
It would be nice to close this issue with some administrator action one way or the other. The final SPI decision is still hanging and I hope the additional issues described above are taken into account as well. Bondegezou (talk) 10:39, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
Proposal: Topic Ban
A checkuser has found that Jonadabsmith is at least possibly the master behind a number of related socks reinforcing his perspectives on the articles detailed above. Looking at the greater context and considering the evidence provided by numerous editors both at the SPI and here, I'm going to say that my own assessment is that it is in fact highly probable that these accounts are either Jonadabsmith's socks or, at the very least, meat puppets. I'd encourage anyone voting on the proposal to, of course, review the SPI and the above discussion before coming to their own conclusions as to the relationship between the accounts, but what is not in question is that this user has steadfastly refused to engage in WP:AGF, making liberal use of ad hominem attacks on other users.
Most concerning of all, this user has recently threatened to stop by the workplace of another contributor. Jonadabsmith would have us believe that "for all we know" he was just proposing to have a "cup of tea" and discuss the issues but A) looking at the wording of the comment and the disruptive/argumentative context in which it was made, I think we can all see the intent and motivation here was a clear attempt to chill the efforts of another editor through a threat to harass him at work and, B) even if we were to believe that the suggestion of coming into said user's workspace was for the purpose of civil discussion about how his edits on Wikipedia reflect on his concern for his students and his personal politics, it would still be an entirely inappropriate thing to do, or threaten to do.
This behaviour is absolutely unacceptable. Personally I still feel it would be appropriate for any admin looking into this matter to impose an indefinite block for the fairly obvious sock-/meat-puppetry. Failing that, I'm proposing a community resolution to remove this editor from the topic areas which they are proven they cannot be involved in without disruption of the worst sort (threats to the off-project security and well being of our contributors who chose to reveal their actual names on-project, amongst other issues). Specifically my recommendation is that this user be topic banned from contributing to all areas relating to British student organizations, the Brexit or Britain's relationship to the European Union in general, all broadly construed. Snow let's rap 04:09, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support as nom. Snow let's rap 04:09, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support topic ban from all areas relating to British student organizations, the Brexit or Britain's relationship to the European Union in general, all broadly construed. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 06:17, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support. This is probably the least that should be done in this case, and a site ban is actually the preferred choice of experienced editors at this point. BTW here is the SPI: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Jonadabsmith. -- Softlavender (talk) 08:07, 9 March 2016 (UTC); edited 03:04, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Siteban (first choice) or topic ban as proposed. A clear case of someone who is trying to use Wikipedia to further an agenda. Guy (Help!) 11:34, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment I don't know that I should have a !vote as the injured party, so to speak, but if this account is not simply indef blocked, might I suggest a site ban until end of June 2016, i.e. a week after the referendum? Bondegezou (talk) 14:50, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Bondegezou, you are most definitely allowed to !vote. A site ban is considered permanent, so there are no short-term "site bans"; perhaps you meant a temporary block (which would also cover socking or block evasion). Softlavender (talk) 03:04, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- A clarification. Ostensibly, there are bans that are stated to last for a year, numerous Arbcom bans have been handed out in the past where editors were site banned for a a year. Obviously we all know that site bans are rarely fixed term and those site banned are even more rarely allowed to return. Blackmane (talk) 14:04, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Bondegezou, you are most definitely allowed to !vote. A site ban is considered permanent, so there are no short-term "site bans"; perhaps you meant a temporary block (which would also cover socking or block evasion). Softlavender (talk) 03:04, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Site ban as 1st choice and Tban as 2nd per Guy. Being zealous about what you believe in is one thing, but hinting at showing up at someone's work place is beyond chilling and into the realm of real world harassment. Blackmane (talk) 01:40, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support siteban or indef block on grounds that we would indef for legal threats, and IRL ones are even more serious. 09:02, 11 March 2016 (UTC)09:02, 11 March 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.230.65.134 (talk)
- Site ban as first choice. I agree with Guy here.--Adam in MO Talk 12:27, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Site ban This goes beyond just not editing on a specific topic. In my opinion a line was crossed with the comment related to "having a cup of coffee" with Bondegezou. That to me smelled of an attempt to harass the user in person. This is not the type of editor that I personally would want to have on Wikipedia. RickinBaltimore (talk) 14:24, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Site ban first choice, with a very broadly construed topic ban as a poor alternative which would have to include a one-way interaction ban to stop them finding other ways to needle an editor they oppose. Johnuniq (talk) 23:52, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Site ban as first choice with topic ban as second choice. Using Wikipedia to further an agenda or sock puppetry is a violation of fundamental policies. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 07:27, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- Site ban as first choice, topic ban second choice. Precisely the sort of behavior which destroys a collegial, cooperative and good-faith editing environment. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:30, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have noted another couple of sock or meat puppets at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Jonadabsmith. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:33, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
User:Maybeparaphrased: New editor stubbornly resistant to learning/following/caring about the rules. What to do?
User:Maybeparaphrased has only been editing for a month and (not surprisingly) has already encountered a few problems.
But now I have encountered a troubling pattern that, if not addressed now, will likely just get worse as Maybeparaphrased encounters other editors.
I came across this series of virtually identical and unsourced edits by an IP: here, here, here and here. In each case, not only were they not sourced, but they simply didn't fit where they had been placed. It was pretty obvious that this IP was attempting to place this same info on every single page where the subject was listed - whether it belonged there or not.
So I tried to correct it, by reverting those edits. When I got to the actual Hank Bergman article, it was an unholy mess and looked like this.
Thru a series of edits, I removed extraneous sections and non-encyclopedic fluff and now the article looks like this. But with my first edit, Maybeparaphrased decided to revert my edit there, as well as all my edits on those other pages as well. What followed was a series of notices left on my talk page and a series of back and forth on Maybeparaphrased's talk page: where I was repeatedly, threatened, four, times and curiously - after posting on my talk page, twice, - was told to stay off his/her talk page. When I advised Maybeparaphrased that threatening editors on his/her talk page for making constructive edits - especially since he/she was unfamiliar with the editing guidelines & policies - wasn't going to fly, was itself a violation and likely could backfire, I got the response that I should "take your alphabet soup of WP policies someplace else".
Again, Maybeparaphrased also reverted my edits on those other other pages, here, here and restored the non-encyclopedic, largely unsourced and irrelevant fluff on the Bergman page.
Obviously, it's ok to be newbie. You can even be an ass. (It's even ok to be an IP.) But if you're going to not only ignore the rules, but attack people who point out what the rules are, then you're definitely going to be a problem editor down the road - and some action should be taken now.
While I'm not recommending a block for the reverts, or the threats or even the stalking, I am definitely recommending guidance and monitoring for Maybeparaphrased. Before more serious action has to be taken against a newbie who doesn't think the rules apply to him/her and already feels he/she can operate without any repercussions. Any thoughts? Thanks.2602:306:BD61:E0F0:1DD3:FAF0:D888:A273 (talk) 11:18, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Looks like a probable sock of the otherInteresting to note: Bergman SPAs Legwarmers1980, FranciscoFWPerez, etc. and IP Bergman SPAs (someone else can list those). Someone probably needs to take some time to round them all up and file an WP:SPI.As a stop-gap measure, at the very least a topic-ban on Bergman probably needs to be enacted, and if they revert back to IP editing, then maybe semi-protection of the affected pages.See Update 1 below. -- Softlavender (talk) 08:27, 9 March 2016 (UTC); edited 09:43, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Update 1: Looks like the OP merely got caught up in Maybeparaphrased's over-zealous use of Twinkle. When an IP blanks a section, it's fairly normal for someone to notice that in Recent Changes, and revert it. Maybeparaphrased then checked the IP's other similar edits and reverted them as well via Twinkle. OP, that's the breaks of not being a registered user: Your edits are more suspect, especially if you blank sections and remove a ton of content with the edit summary "format fixes", and when your IP account is only one day old and an SPA. I suggest registering an account if you don't want to be mistaken for a drive-by SPA in the future. Maybeparaphrased, please stop reverting this good-faith user's edits. IPs are people too. -- Softlavender (talk) 09:43, 9 March 2016 (UTC); edited 10:35, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Update 2: The edit history of Sherman Bergman is a hotbed of Bergman SPAs including IPs. I'm mentioning this because that article is now at AfD. Here are the registered-account SPAs I've found so far:
- FranciscoFWPerez
- Legwarmers1980
- PeterHeughan
- Alainchristian1960
- Mississippitruman
- Angelsunchained
- CliffHarper
- Eugenejerome
- Eddiecoyle1973
- Royalfleming
- TimBaker1941
- PainlessPeterPotter
- LeifSchumeucker
- BusRiley1965
- Lennybaker
- Desiree1954
That's not counting the IP SPAs on that article. Pinging Bbb23 and Binksternet -- do either of you feel like doing an SPI before that article gets deleted and the edit history disappears from view? Or is it even worth it at this point? Softlavender (talk) 09:47, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
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- All of these accounts share an interest in promoting Sherman Bergman, which is an interest also shared by Sherman Bergman himself. It appears that Bergman realized in his youth that by working at the newspaper he could get his own name in print, which he did frequently. However, the newspaper was always the Miami Herald where he had contacts. There's no national coverage.
- Named the same as one of the SPAs here, there's a Flickr account named Legwarmers 1980 which contains scans of the various newspaper clippings about Sherman Bergman and his father Hank. These are supposed to serve as references. I don't think Wikipedia needs this article, so I voted 'delete' at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sherman Bergman (2nd nomination). I would bet that any account working primarily on Bergman's bio is a sock account. Binksternet (talk) 14:31, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Hi Binksternet, thanks very much for the additional sleuthing. The same collection of SPA socks and IPs created Hank Bergman, a vanity article on his father, almost entirely cited to that same Flickr account. The OP gave it a trim-down but it still should probably be axed as well. Take a look. Care to do the nomination? Softlavender (talk) 04:01, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- You are already halfway there, Softlavender. You have the green light. Binksternet (talk) 04:27, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- OK I'll probably do it in a day or two. Not feeling like filing an AfD at the mo -- I don't use Twinkle (maybe I should start). Someone should remind me if I forget to do the nom. Softlavender (talk) 04:47, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- You are already halfway there, Softlavender. You have the green light. Binksternet (talk) 04:27, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Hi Binksternet, thanks very much for the additional sleuthing. The same collection of SPA socks and IPs created Hank Bergman, a vanity article on his father, almost entirely cited to that same Flickr account. The OP gave it a trim-down but it still should probably be axed as well. Take a look. Care to do the nomination? Softlavender (talk) 04:01, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
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- OK, I've nominated Hank Bergman for deletion. This thread can be closed, since the misunderstanding that led to it has been resolved. Softlavender (talk) 05:59, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
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Request lifting of Topic Ban of DrChrissy
- On May 20th 2015, I was topic banned here [[8]] by @Awilley: for 6 months. The locus relates to three broad subjects (1) alternative medicine, (2) WP:MEDRS and (3) Human medicine articles.
- I applied to have my TB lifted here [[9]]. @Dennis Brown: carefully considered the discussion and decided that my ban should be re-visited in 3 months. This was primarily, I believe, because at the time I was involved in an Arbcom case, rather than non-adherance of the TB (Dennis, I hope I am not misrepresenting you here). I am now (re-)seeking to have the TB lifted.
- During the last 3 months, I have not edited any pages in the area of my TB, or entered into discussions about them. I cannot recollect any comments from other editors that I have come close to violating the TB, or attempted to skirt the TB. I also cannot recollect asking either of the closing admins, or others, for advice regarding the extent of my TB during the last 3 months – indicating I have consciously stayed unambiguously away from the topic areas.
- I believe that when admins are looking for evidence of why a TB should be lifted, they are wanting to see constructive editing in areas away from the TB. I will not repeat the evidence I presented at my previous request, rather, I offer the following as evidence of my constructive and non-disruptive editing behaviour during the last 3 months.
- Created: Grimace scale (animals)
- Major re-writes: Pain in crustaceans, Bile bear, Hair whorl (horse)
- Others (examples): Killing of Cecil the lion, Emotion in animals, Personality in animals
- Community discussion or edits: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science, Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)
- My TB has successfully prevented the topic areas from being disrupted by myself for the last 9 months. During this time, I have reflected upon how I caused disruption in the topic areas and I have adjusted my thinking and editing to ensure that going forward, I will not cause further disruption. The topic ban has achieved its objective and I request it now be lifted.
DrChrissy (talk) 21:24, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
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- DrChrissy, I'm inclined to support, but just for clarity, could you briefly elucidate on where you feel you departed from MEDRS, why your behaviour became disruptive in those instances where you discussed these policy/content matters, and what you'd do in similar circumstances moving forward when there is disagreement as to the quality of sourcing for an article pertaining to either conventional or alternative medicine? Snow let's rap 22:21, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm happy to. Nine months ago, I was concerned about the way that WP:MEDRS was being applied to alt.med articles (but not conventional medicine). I began trying to understand this by making a series of "Is this source MEDRS compatible?" postings. Editors did not like this and I accept I made a series of pointy, disruptive edits. I failed to listen to consensus. I now understand MEDRS more fully and the objectives it is trying to achieve. In the future, I would not make pointy edits, and I would accept consensus well before my edits became disruptive. DrChrissy (talk) 22:37, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'd be inclined to support as well given the statement above. However, I am also with the past history of those involved with MEDRS at ANI and would not be too surprised if a number of editors from that dispute arrived to make statements against the lifting of the topic ban, or at least a blanket unconditional lifting of the topic ban. To address that, DrChrissy, would you be willing to agree to a probationary period of a fixed number of months, say no less than 1 and no more than 3, during which any reversion to the behaviour that caused the topic ban to be imposed would result in the re-imposing of the topic ban. After this period, the ban would be unconditionally lifted. Does this sound palatable? Blackmane (talk) 00:14, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I am not entirely sure what this suggestion entails. If my ban was unconditionally lifted now and I was to revert to my previous disruptive behaviour, I would fully expect to be brought back to AN/I where I would have the ban reimposed and very probably broadened. Perhaps I am missing something about your suggestion. I am not opposed to it, but please could you elaborate on what you are suggesting for that 1-3 month period, compared to an unconditional lifting of the ban. DrChrissy (talk) 00:40, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- After some thought and re-reading, I see how it would seem confusing nor does it make a lot of sense. I'll amend the qualifier to mean that within the 1-3 month time frame, reversion to behaviour that lef to the ban will result in an automatic reimposition of the ban. After the 1-3 months have lapsed a new ban would require a new community discussion. Is this clearer? It may unnecessarily complicate things, but I'm just tossing ideas around. Blackmane (talk) 02:38, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- I would imagine that if I were to revert to the behaviour which led to my TB (and for probably a good time longer than 1-3 months), admins and the community would be on my case immediately and come down on me like a ton of bricks. To my mind, after receiving a topic ban, there is already a "mental probationary period" where extreme caution needs to be used when returning to editing in that area. If my TB is lifted, I would, in fact, be editing under a self-imposed probationary period. DrChrissy (talk) 17:59, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- After some thought and re-reading, I see how it would seem confusing nor does it make a lot of sense. I'll amend the qualifier to mean that within the 1-3 month time frame, reversion to behaviour that lef to the ban will result in an automatic reimposition of the ban. After the 1-3 months have lapsed a new ban would require a new community discussion. Is this clearer? It may unnecessarily complicate things, but I'm just tossing ideas around. Blackmane (talk) 02:38, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I am not entirely sure what this suggestion entails. If my ban was unconditionally lifted now and I was to revert to my previous disruptive behaviour, I would fully expect to be brought back to AN/I where I would have the ban reimposed and very probably broadened. Perhaps I am missing something about your suggestion. I am not opposed to it, but please could you elaborate on what you are suggesting for that 1-3 month period, compared to an unconditional lifting of the ban. DrChrissy (talk) 00:40, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- DrChrissy, I'm inclined to support, but just for clarity, could you briefly elucidate on where you feel you departed from MEDRS, why your behaviour became disruptive in those instances where you discussed these policy/content matters, and what you'd do in similar circumstances moving forward when there is disagreement as to the quality of sourcing for an article pertaining to either conventional or alternative medicine? Snow let's rap 22:21, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Support lifting ban, with or without Blackmane's qualifier. To be fair, I am not super familiar with the disputes which led to the ban in the first place, though I did review the discussions linked above and I've seen plenty of other highly contentious discussions centered around both MEDRS and alternative medicine. In any event, I'm going to take it on faith that DrChrissy is being genuine and not just paying lip-service when they say that they understand where their behaviour crossed the line into disruption in the past and that they will exercise greater caution in recognizing where consensus is against them in the future. They seem to have stayed busy improving the project in other areas during the ban and where I've seen them active in the past, my best recollection is that they had a measured and neutral perspective and were willing to entertain middle-ground solutions. Putting all of these factors together, I feel I can support the lifting of the ban, notwithstanding the fact that there are parties who strongly opposed it at the six-month mark. I'd add only that I'd caution DrChrissy to step lightly in these topic areas at first, and back away from contentious discussions for a time. Snow let's rap 00:44, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
Oppose Partly on the basis that I find some of the editing being pointed to as a good example, such as the second part of the extensive diff [10] to stray from the point of the actual article, presumably to implicitly express an opinion. (Personally, I basically agree with the implied opinion, but I still regard introducing other types of animals into the discussion and adding the boxed material not to constitute NPOV editing.) (& similar in some of the other articles; again, that I mostly agree with his apparent positions in these also is not to the point) DGG ( talk ) 01:11, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- Reply My re-write of the Pain in crustaceans article and the diff you mention involved lifting content from the Pain in fish article. This content has been developed with other editors involved and discussed at the Pain in fish page. It has not raised concerns of being contentious or POV. I am trying to help build a suite of articles relating to pain in non-human animals and it seems to me that providing similar introductions and background information (involving other animals) in these articles is exactly what an encyclopaedia should be doing - giving a generic feel. If I have strayed too far from the point of the article, I apologise, but this has not been disruptive - there have been no complaints or concerns raised at the Talk page. DrChrissy (talk) 01:31, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- @DGG: Thank you for expanding on this at my Talk page. There is a win:win:win possibility here. You are of course free to edit the Pain in crustaceans article. Why not edit the article to remove the perceived POV. I will not contest these edits. WP and yourself "win" by having improved the article. You will then be able to strike/amend your oppose vote as there will no longer be an outstanding issue. DrChrissy (talk) 18:07, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- As I mentioned on your talk page, the same problems affect the Bile Bear article also. As I also said there, I find it too stressful to work on articles such as these which I have a strong emotional view. I found it difficult to even read them carefully enough to comment. DGG ( talk ) 21:22, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- But you have suggested I am pushing a POV and as a consequence you voted to oppose the lifting of my TB - how can I address your concerns if you do not change, or indicate, the edits leading to your conclusion? Perhaps you could indicate which edits of mine at Bile bear are giving you cause for concern? DrChrissy (talk) 22:18, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- As I mentioned on your talk page, the same problems affect the Bile Bear article also. As I also said there, I find it too stressful to work on articles such as these which I have a strong emotional view. I found it difficult to even read them carefully enough to comment. DGG ( talk ) 21:22, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- @DGG: Thank you for expanding on this at my Talk page. There is a win:win:win possibility here. You are of course free to edit the Pain in crustaceans article. Why not edit the article to remove the perceived POV. I will not contest these edits. WP and yourself "win" by having improved the article. You will then be able to strike/amend your oppose vote as there will no longer be an outstanding issue. DrChrissy (talk) 18:07, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
Support lifting the ban. DrChrissy has acknowledged his mistakes and said he wouldn't repeat them. He is a proficient editor, and I believe that in the spirit of editor retention and ways the project would benefit most, lifting the ban makes perfect sense. Atsme📞📧 07:06, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment from previous closer I won't speak on the merits nor give an opinion on this vote, but the primary reason for revisiting after 3 months was because almost 2 out of 3 people supported lifting the ban, but a full reading of the discussion showed no consensus for a change at that time. Because of the closeness of the discussion, and the heat of the ongoing Arb case, it was my opinion that reviewing in 3 months, after the Arb case was over, was the most fair thing to do, and I support the idea of reviewing now that the heat is lower and no cases are pending. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:59, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support in good faith. From what is written above, it would seem that this editor has learnt from the TB. It should be fully understood that a return to problematic behaviour will result in a swift reapplication of sanctions, and maybe additional ones too. Let's give this editor a chance to show that they have learnt from a past mistake. Mjroots (talk) 19:05, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment I do not know the background behind the alt medicine topic ban, but I have interacted recently with Chrissey after the GMO case. In January this year his GMO topic ban was extended, in part due to this edit. AIRcorn (talk) 20:56, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support in good faith. Everyone deserves another chance, and I trust that DrChrissy will make good decisions. Lets take this monkey off his back and let him apply what he has learned without any bars or cages. It's the logical thing to do in this situation. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 21:06, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose The same behavior that lead to the alt-med topic ban later led to the ArbCom GMO topic ban and a separate widening of that ban. The fact that this editor gets topic banned, moves to another topic, gets topic banned again, blocked, etc. coupled with constantly challenging these bans indicates they are not yet able to realize how disruptive their involvement in these topics has been when they keep getting banned. The alt-med topic ban should remain as long as DrChrissy is continuing the same disruptive behavior in other controversial topics since those bans have come so recently. This ANI close only 3 months ago reiterates this problem whenever DrChrissy tries to appeal their topic bans. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:21, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
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- E/C :Your argument is dismissive of the closing admin who indicated my TB could be revisited in 3 months. His closing statement makes it totally clear that he had taken the imminent ArbCom decision into his carefully considered summary, yet he chose to specify 3 months rather than 6 or otherwise. Furthermore, your unfounded comments "constantly challenging" and "continuing the same disruptive behaviour" need to be supported with diffs. DrChrissy (talk) 22:37, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- (After the edit conflict) Kingofaces43, you have just provided a diff to the very TB that I am seeking to have lifted...I am unsure of the logic here. DrChrissy (talk) 22:42, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- You may want to read what Dennis Brown had to say in their third paragraph of the ANI close. The main reason why your ban wasn't lifted was that you were continuing the same disruptive behavior as before. Guess what's happened since that last appeal? You've had new topic bans, been blocked, etc. for the same battleground mentality. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:14, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- The above is a good example of the tendency to completely ignore warnings, topic bans, etc. and act like they've done nothing wrong. The evidence is already covered in the various topic bans. I'm not going to re-amass diffs of all the times they've repeatedly tried to test the edges the topic bans as that's been rehashed in previous administrative actions already (though see DrChrissy's recent talk page archives for examples). The recent added on topic bans and blocks should speak for themselves at this point that the behavior isn't improving and the topic ban needs to be continued to prevent further disruption. We for instance can't cite WP:AGF in supporting removal of the ban when these problems have continued regardless of what the editor says at this point. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:14, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- (After the edit conflict) Kingofaces43, you have just provided a diff to the very TB that I am seeking to have lifted...I am unsure of the logic here. DrChrissy (talk) 22:42, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- E/C :Your argument is dismissive of the closing admin who indicated my TB could be revisited in 3 months. His closing statement makes it totally clear that he had taken the imminent ArbCom decision into his carefully considered summary, yet he chose to specify 3 months rather than 6 or otherwise. Furthermore, your unfounded comments "constantly challenging" and "continuing the same disruptive behaviour" need to be supported with diffs. DrChrissy (talk) 22:37, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - Editor's battlefield behavior and faux-naivete has not changed, it's remained constant throughout. There's no reason I can see to lift this block, or any other active sanction on DrChrissy, for that matter, since it's a sure thing we'd be revisiting it (or some other sanction) soon enough. This editor simply does not know how to edit without constantly pushing a POV contrary to the Wikipedia ethos of NPOV. BMK (talk) 22:49, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose, especially given the parallel ban by ArbCom for identical behaviour in a related area, GMOs (the similarity being the collision between belief and science). I have yet to see this user admit that they were wrong about anything, which is the biggest source of problems with him. Guy (Help!) 23:13, 7 March 2016 (UTC). Addendum: The involvement in WP:RSN offered as a justification for lifting the topic ban, is actually the exact opposite: DrChrissy opposes the systematic removal of material sourced to predatory open-access publishers, who use wallet review instead of peer review. Guy (Help!) 23:37, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Seems like you have not read the thread. I stated above "Editors did not like this and I accept I made a series of pointy, disruptive edits." and "I failed to listen to consensus."[11] DrChrissy (talk) 23:18, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- "I failed to listen to consensus" is semantically equivalent to "I was right but nobody else agreed". Feel free to show an example or five of substantive issues of content where you have been persuaded to change your views based on comments form others. The primary cause of the two bans were ban was WP:IDHT and WP:RGW. That's what you need to address. Guy (Help!) 23:42, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- With respect Guy, there have been occasions where I was quite convinced that I had the right of a content issue, despite being in the minority. Recognizing that the right thing to do there is to accept consensus even if you aren't altogether convinced that an error isn't being made doesn't seem like a flaw to me--point in fact, it seems like crux of the local consensus process. I don't think we can require an editor to demonstrate that they can be won over to another view on content in order to prove that they can contribute constructively. We only need to know that they will not derail process or otherwise behave disruptively when they do disagree. Perhaps I'm missing context here (I'm unfamiliar with the ArbCom case in question), but IDHT is more of a behavioural consideration (for those who can't see where they are being disruptive) and not an approach to content discussions. Snow let's rap 05:51, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oh yes, we all do that. The problem for me is that this user has never as far as I can tell acknowledged that any criticism of their actions especially) or their edits is actually valid. It's always all about someone else. And trying to maintain WP:NPOV on any page where this editor is active and has a view at odds with the scientific mainstream, is a Sisyphean task. Guy (Help!) 00:16, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Guy, perhaps your inability to provide evidence to support your argument is because there is none. I have not expressed a view that is at odds against the mainstream since the Topic Ban. How can I prove that I have not done something? If you have evidence that I have been pushing POV, please provide this for the closing admin.
- By the way, an example of my acceptance that I do get things wrong and I do apologise is clearly evident on my Talk page, here.[[12]] DrChrissy (talk) 00:36, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oh yes, we all do that. The problem for me is that this user has never as far as I can tell acknowledged that any criticism of their actions especially) or their edits is actually valid. It's always all about someone else. And trying to maintain WP:NPOV on any page where this editor is active and has a view at odds with the scientific mainstream, is a Sisyphean task. Guy (Help!) 00:16, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- With respect Guy, there have been occasions where I was quite convinced that I had the right of a content issue, despite being in the minority. Recognizing that the right thing to do there is to accept consensus even if you aren't altogether convinced that an error isn't being made doesn't seem like a flaw to me--point in fact, it seems like crux of the local consensus process. I don't think we can require an editor to demonstrate that they can be won over to another view on content in order to prove that they can contribute constructively. We only need to know that they will not derail process or otherwise behave disruptively when they do disagree. Perhaps I'm missing context here (I'm unfamiliar with the ArbCom case in question), but IDHT is more of a behavioural consideration (for those who can't see where they are being disruptive) and not an approach to content discussions. Snow let's rap 05:51, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- E/C After Guy's addendum. You are seriously misrepresenting me - yet again. I am opposed to the systematic removal of (some of) the sources without giving due consideration to how this leaves articles. This concern has been expressed by other editors and some have even said your behaviour in systematically removing these sources is damaging to the encyclopaedia. DrChrissy (talk) 23:50, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- "I failed to listen to consensus" is semantically equivalent to "I was right but nobody else agreed". Feel free to show an example or five of substantive issues of content where you have been persuaded to change your views based on comments form others. The primary cause of the two bans were ban was WP:IDHT and WP:RGW. That's what you need to address. Guy (Help!) 23:42, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- Seems like you have not read the thread. I stated above "Editors did not like this and I accept I made a series of pointy, disruptive edits." and "I failed to listen to consensus."[11] DrChrissy (talk) 23:18, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support lifting the ban, per WP:ROPE. Happy_Attack_Dog (Throw Me a Bone) 15:51, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support per AGF. Keeping the ban in place at present time would be punitive rather than preventative. Kindzmarauli (talk) 18:10, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support as WP:AGF. For the nay-sayers, consider it WP:ROPE if you need to. I agree with Kindzmarauli's assessment that bans are meant to be preventative, not punitive. I assume DrChrissy knows they'll be under heightened scrutiny after an ban is removed and will work on further altering their past behavior into something more constructive. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:23, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
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- I'll comment here on this general "AGF" trend just because your comment is the most recent, but what makes you think this time will be any different? We've given DrChrissy repeated WP:ROPE offers only for them to be topic banned, and topic banned again with next to no rope after that. They've been given chance after chance after chance only to continue combative behavior in other topics to the point they always have some recent additional sanction in another area when they come to appeal here. I'm not seeing how people can say AGF when the actual very recent behavior pattern of this editor tells a very different story. AGF is not a suicide pact when we know an editor has only been continuing disruption elsewhere and continues to make comments here ignoring that. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:34, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Indeed. DrCh received a community ban on a specific subject, and his behavior then led to an ArbCom ban on another subject. When DrCh abused that ban, it was made more forceful. There has yet to be a circumstance where DrCh's editing has improved as a result of a sanction, he simply moves on to another subject and/or edits around the edges of the ban. "AGF" is not a suicide pact, once an editor has shown that they do not deserve our good faith, we're under no obligation to continue to extend it to them until they have shown clear signs of understanding their past errors and correcting them in their current editing. There has been no such sign with DrCh. This appeal is simply one made at the earliest opportunity provided by the ban: he simply bided his time and here he is, with no evidence to present of having changed, the same-old civil-POV-pushing battleground editor he's always been. BMK (talk) 22:49, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'll comment here on this general "AGF" trend just because your comment is the most recent, but what makes you think this time will be any different? We've given DrChrissy repeated WP:ROPE offers only for them to be topic banned, and topic banned again with next to no rope after that. They've been given chance after chance after chance only to continue combative behavior in other topics to the point they always have some recent additional sanction in another area when they come to appeal here. I'm not seeing how people can say AGF when the actual very recent behavior pattern of this editor tells a very different story. AGF is not a suicide pact when we know an editor has only been continuing disruption elsewhere and continues to make comments here ignoring that. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:34, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose The smoke hasn't even finished rising from the last messes this user started yet. Mabye in another six months. Jtrainor (talk) 20:01, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
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- @Jtrainor: please would you expand (provide diffs) on what "messes" you believe I have started. I don't remember seeing you contributing to the subject matter of my topic ban. DrChrissy (talk) 20:28, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Jtrainor is under no onus to do so. This is an appeal by you for lifting a ban you have already received, so you have to show us that you have changed, we are under no obligation to show that the ban remains necessary. If you do not present such evidence, the ban remains in effect. I have seen no such evidence - certainly that you haven't edited in the area you're banned from isn't applicable, as that's exactly what a topic ban means. If you had done so, it's likely that the ban would have been made indefinite. BMK (talk) 22:54, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- So what you are saying is that any editor can come along here and make any comment regarding my behaviour without there being any need to provide evidence. There might not be an onus here, but there is such a thing as moral responsibility for our edits. By the way, I provided multiple pieces of solid evidence for constructive and non-problematic editing in my opening paragraph. Did you see that? DrChrissy (talk) 23:15, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- You'll note that except for your usual coterie, the only "support" votes have been based on AGF and ROPE, not on any kind of awareness or analysis of your actual editing -- and yet you have asked none of those people for diffs and examples showing how you've changed, preferring instead to harangue those of us who actually follow your editing and are aware of your behavior patterns. This is not a court of law, and WP:Wikipedia is not a democracy, your appeal is to the court of public opinion as represented by those who frequent these noticeboards, and if you cannot convince us that you are deserving of having your ban removed, it will not be. That's the bottom line, the onus is entirely on you, no matter how many times you attempt to foist it off on the people who disagree with you. But please, do keep it up: the more disagreeable and combative you show yourself to be, the more people will understand the true nature of your editing. BMK (talk) 01:17, 9 March 2016 (UTC) (Sorry, did not sign properly.)
- So what you are saying is that any editor can come along here and make any comment regarding my behaviour without there being any need to provide evidence. There might not be an onus here, but there is such a thing as moral responsibility for our edits. By the way, I provided multiple pieces of solid evidence for constructive and non-problematic editing in my opening paragraph. Did you see that? DrChrissy (talk) 23:15, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Jtrainor is under no onus to do so. This is an appeal by you for lifting a ban you have already received, so you have to show us that you have changed, we are under no obligation to show that the ban remains necessary. If you do not present such evidence, the ban remains in effect. I have seen no such evidence - certainly that you haven't edited in the area you're banned from isn't applicable, as that's exactly what a topic ban means. If you had done so, it's likely that the ban would have been made indefinite. BMK (talk) 22:54, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Jtrainor: please would you expand (provide diffs) on what "messes" you believe I have started. I don't remember seeing you contributing to the subject matter of my topic ban. DrChrissy (talk) 20:28, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
I agree with above unsigned editor. You've come here to ask the community to do you a favor. Most people would approach that request with an attitude of helpfulness, making it easy for the community to give you what you want. Instead, you are being argumentative, and showing more of got you TBs in the first place that being IDHT and BATTLEGROUND. So, simply based on your behavior in this thread, I would oppose lifting your Tban. John from Idegon (talk) 01:36, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support good faith lifting of the ban. Wikipedia is about building an encyclopedia and not about endless punishment. DrChrissy is a good editor who by his own admission sometimes lets his POV shine through his writing and sometimes presses points too far, but he is working on both. So why not assume good faith and give him another chance? --I am One of Many (talk) 08:03, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
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- The idea that DrChrissy is a good editor is contradicted by the fact that he's currently under two topic bans, one imposed by ArbCom. I think DrChrissy is fine as long as he steers clears of areas where his beliefs collide with science. That's GMOs and quackery, which are the two areas from which he is currently banned. Guy (Help!) 09:44, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Of course DrChrissy is a good editor. I have looked as some of his articles and he is an excellent writer. These topic bans have nothing to do with his quality as an editor but rather with his behavior regarding certain topics. This distinction is often confused here, but it is very important when considering lifting topic bans. If an editor is not a good editor, then there is really no gain for the encyclopedia in lifting the ban, and considerable downside. If an editor is a good editor, then the upside benefit may exceed the downside risk. He is a good editor, so we should assume good faith and see what happens. --I am One of Many (talk) 19:02, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- The idea that DrChrissy is a good editor is contradicted by the fact that he's currently under two topic bans, one imposed by ArbCom. I think DrChrissy is fine as long as he steers clears of areas where his beliefs collide with science. That's GMOs and quackery, which are the two areas from which he is currently banned. Guy (Help!) 09:44, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose As per JzG and BMK, given the same behaviour in other topic areas and subsequent sanctions, I would want at least 6 months non-problematic editing in *any* topic area before considering supporting it. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:16, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose The way we decide if a topic ban should be lifted is, in part, to see if the editor has demonstrated an understanding of why they were banned and show an ability to avoid those pitfalls in other topic areas. This has not happened. I have watched the several appeals of their GMO topic ban and the total lack of clue exhibited there, so much so that the ban was expanded. The same type of behavior is being exhibited here by challenging each of the oppose !votes. Just search on DrChrissy in the AE archives for many recent examples of recent dead horse beating. JbhTalk 13:46, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. Unfortunately, DrChrissy does not do well in editing these sorts of contentious topic areas (first acupuncture and alt-med, later GMOs). They have the regrettable habit of personalizing content disputes, and then jumping to abuse of talk pages and Wikipedia processes when they don't get their way. It is less than two months since DrChrissy's last block expired, which he received for an abusive and spurious AE filing against an editor with which he had an interaction ban (imposed as part of the GMO arbitration, IIRC). If DrChrissy could consistently stay away from even the edges of all of his extant topic and interaction bans for 6 months – without incurring any new ones – then it might be appropriate to consider easing his editing restrictions. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:48, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Weak oppose I was going to offer a weak support based on a recent interaction I had with DrChrissy, where he was across the issue from me but seemed to concede points and seemed to try to work towards a solution. However, after coming here and reading through this thread, I see that they continue to argue with anyone who criticizes them. Blackmane's advice below is very good advice, but unfortunately in my case, it came too late. Note that I say "weak" oppose because I don't have a sizable history with them. My impression from this thread and our last interaction are at odd, and it wouldn't take that much in the way of a demonstration of good faith for me to change my mind. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 14:53, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support. I think DrChrissy has learned their lesson about the disruption. They have made some very good contributions to several articles that I've seen, and undoubtedly more that I haven't seen. White Arabian Filly Neigh 16:38, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. First line of request misstates the ban. While editing other areas during this ban, DC collected another indef topic ban on GMO. That ban carried a 12-month revisit. That does not speak well for editing in general or a return to any contentious area in particular. Under these circumstances, I believe ROPE is not appropriate. I want to see an extended period without trouble. Glrx (talk) 19:29, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose - The response to nearly every Oppose !vote is itself evidence of battleground behavior. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:06, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose You regularly argue in the parapsychology-related threads here, which touches on a violation of your topic ban.142.105.159.60 (talk) 22:16, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support lifting of TBAN. Most of the opposing voters are demonstrating an appalling lack of good faith. Everyone deserves second chances. --Ches (talk) 08:55, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. I consider myself a Wiki-friend of DrChrissy, and I was one of DrChrissy's strongest defenders during the previous request for lifting the topic ban – and I really wish I were not commenting here now. But inasmuch as I do agree that DrChrissy's recent edits have been improved, I've been forced to conclude that this is because of the topic ban, and not a reason to lift it. Almost immediately after the previous request was denied, DrChrissy got blocked at AE over issues with the ArbCom topic ban, and DrChrissy lashed out at me just before being blocked, in a way that demonstrated a lack of growth and that cannot be dismissed as frustration. I hate to be saying this, and I am unlikely to reply if DrChrissy replies to me here. But the best interests of Wikipedia are met by leaving the topic ban intact. Sorry. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:40, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose problematic behavior in other topic areas after the topic ban, I think suggest that the topic ban remains warranted. Three months strike me as a very short period for demonstrating improvement.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 22:05, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. DrChrissy's recent advocacy for predatory publishers in RSN does not give me confidence that the reasons for the topic ban have been moved past. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:07, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
Advice and reason for lifting ban
DrChrissy I highly recommend that you refrain from responding to every oppose. Rather than support your case, it would very much likely turn otherwise neutral editors against your appeal or turn those would have supported into opposes. BMK makes an excellent point that you would do well to take note of. Blackmane (talk) 01:35, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Evidence of collaborative editing. I would like to point out that User:Guy and User:DGG (who have both opposed the lifting) have both edited collaboratively with me on Bile bear with no problems whatsoever. DrChrissy (talk) 16:07, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- More evidence of collaborative editing - Alligator gar - DrChrissy rephrased a couple of sentences and drew my attention to use of the word anecdotal in the lead which actually motivated me to seek better terminology. [13] I reverted believing anecdotal was the best choice. I trust his judgment in so many ways regarding animal behavior, and just wanted to mention that I am still looking for ways to improve the article based on his suggestions. Yes, he is a valuable contributor and his expertise regarding veterinary topics and animal behavior is a plus for WP. I've seen where some of our Project Medicine team members oppose lifting the ban because of edits he made regarding fringe/ps topics like acupuncture and the like but his edits referenced animal behaviors not human. I'm not sure the latter makes a difference - I never professed to be a scientist or medical expert - and I equally respect both sides of the argument but then the issue of placebo is called into question where animals are concerned, and I would think an animal behavior expert may have some insight from which all of us can learn. Atsme📞📧 20:46, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Query: What is the reason for requesting the lifting of a ban? What articles would you like to edit and why? How can you help in these areas? (Note that I think that replies to this question here should not be considered as a violation of the topic ban.) jps (talk) 10:38, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Excellent question, jps. I will support it not being a violation of his TB if DrChrissy responds directly to your query. Atsme📞📧 14:09, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
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- I have no specific plan or agenda of articles to edit if this ban is lifted.
- The reasons I want this TB lifted are so that I can further improve the encyclopaedia and simultaneously lift the frustration that I have been editing with for over 9 months. Please bear in mind that I have been warned I am to make no comment whatsoever on these topics - not even to mention them on my Talk page or Sandbox. So, I have had to avoid deleting, adding or commenting on these areas, or sections of any pages discussing these, whilst editing productively in widespread topics.
- Many articles I edit in animal behaviour and welfare science have an underlying overlap with aspects of my TB that may not be immediately apparent, but I have had to be careful to avoid even mentioning them. I offer examples in each of the substantive areas of the TB.
- alt.med: I have recently been editing the Bile bear article. Bile bears are kept under horrendous conditions for the purpose of collecting bile and their gall bladders, which are used in alt.med. Despite User:Guy's repeated assertions that I am pro-quackery, I am not. Far from it. I am very much against quackery and pseudoscience, but especially where it negatively impinges on animal welfare. In researching material for the article, I have found many sources where the quackery around bile products is robustly debunked. However, inserting this would be a breach of my TB. I believe this is a net loss to the project. To add to the complications, an editor (User:Guy) has been adding alt.med content to the article. So, this initially felt like I was a submarine trying to navigate an underwater minefield, but then, along comes a destroyer and starts dropping depth charges on me! The article Dog meat (humans eating dogs) is similar to Bile bear in that there are absolutely ridiculous claims about "magical" benefits to humans who eat dog flesh. It would benefit the article and project if my TB was lifted and I am able to make the edits indicating how ridiculous these are.
- Medicine and health: Recently, the article Equine-assisted therapy and associated articles underwent major editing or re-writes. I am aware of much of the literature on anthrozoology (scientific study of interaction between humans and other animals) and I felt I could have benefited the articles with this knowledge. However, given the overall intent behind the articles (human health), I felt this was within the scope of my TB so I did not make any edits. Again, I feel this is a net loss to the project. A similar article is Assistance dog. I also edit heavily in articles on Pain in animals, Pain in fish, Pain in crustaceans and Pain in amphibians - again these articles would be improved if I were able to make edits relating to the science of human pain, but the TB prevents me from doing so.
- Wp:MEDRS I have no desire whatsoever to edit this page. I often engage in discussions elsewhere about the suitability of scientific sources. The subject of MEDRS frequently arises in these discussions and again I must adopt a "submarine in a minefield with a destroyer overhead" approach. I have over 20 years experience of publishing scientific articles in mainstream science journals (including Nature) and I work on several scientific journal editorial boards. I feel this experience is invaluable in these discussions of sources, but I frequently remain silent because I am aware that some people are wanting to play "gotcha" if I mention MEDRS. Lifting my ban will allow me to improve the project in this area.
- DrChrissy (talk) 20:08, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- So, I think the concern of many (including myself) is that you would be inclined toward slanting Wikipedia toward credulity regarding alternative medicine. This seems, to me anyway, to be part of the reason you were topic banned in the first place. What would be unfortunate is if this ended up happening because we'd all end up back here and things worse than topic bans would be on the table. I cannot tell from what you've posted above as to how likely that is to occur. You know that you and I have had our fair share of clashes and I got the impression from those disagreements that you are much more accommodating of alternative medicine than I am. That's neither here nor there, but the question for me is how likely are you to, say, start writing content that endorses as evidence-based such questionable practices as veterinary acupuncture (to pick one of many possibilities out at random). I have been made aware that there seems to be a higher tolerance of "alternative medicine" within certain veterinary communities and it isn't clear to me whether your perspective is that this is a WP:MAINSTREAM approach or whether it is just an example of how certain credulity can creep in without decent evidence. The approach at Wikipedia should be one that doesn't accommodate peculiar beliefs that have insulated themselves from evaluation. It is my fear that this will be the direction in which you will go. Can you see why? jps (talk) 01:42, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- JPS, while I respect your scientific knowledge, I still think it's only fair to equally respect DrChrissy's knowledge. My experience regarding alt or complementary treatments is limited; therefore, whenever I'm involved in writing, reviewing or ce an article that includes such information, I have long since learned to always look to MEDRS and high quality RS. In the case of equine treatments, I actually do have some knowledge based on 40+ years of vet bills, and also working with Texas A&M to help develop embryo transfers in horses. I am not a veterinarian and being a skeptic of sorts while still maintaining an open mind to unlimited possibilities, it's just good common sense to do the research. I have very limited knowledge about acupuncture in humans - I don't believe it works - but in order to respond here, I did the research because horses aren't human. At that point, I would look to DrChrissy for his expertise. I found the following sources that would easily pass MEDRS regarding acupuncture in horses:
Science Direct, Texas A&M, American Association of Equine Practitioners, and Journal of Equine Veterinary Science. I imagine those articles would speak volumes to why DrChrissy should have his TB lifted. It actually never was a case about his expertise, rather it was about his insistence and behavior in his attempt to convince others that he knew what he was talking about. The aforementioned sources support his views. Having said that, I also believe he has learned his lesson regarding his persistence in trying to convince others and that there are alternative ways (no pun intended) to support what he writes in an article. Atsme📞📧 17:27, 11 March 2016 (UTC)- Atsme, you are probably doing more harm than good with your comment here. The Journal of Acupuncture and Meridian Studies in no way passes WP:MEDRS, for example. However, if this is the kind of source that DrChrissy intends to start inserting into the text, then I would not be very pleased to reopen the cans of worms. jps (talk) 19:11, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- @jps I think you have misunderstood me. The examples I gave above were to indicate that when I am editing those or similar articles, I know that I could further contribute positively to them, but I am prevented by my TB. Effectively, I am leaving articles "unfinished" which can not be benefiting the project. I am totally disbelieving of almost all forms of alt.med. I am not sure quite how to state this more clearly but in, for example, the Bile bear article, I would like to write (perhaps in a slightly more encyclopaedic tone) -
- "The cruel bastards who keep these wonderful, sentient mammals in such horrendous conditions, do so because some poor, deluded idiot believes that drinking bear bile will make his erection last longer. This belief is complete bullshit, as shown by (insert multiple WP:MEDRS sources here)".
- I believe firmly in producing balanced articles. Unfortunately, many animals are used in alt.med and I feel that a balanced article would provide information about this, countered by mainstream science to indicate the nonsense and quackery that is associated with the purported benefits. I do not see what is wrong with this approach.
- Editing articles which have alt.med sections was, and will remain, a tiny part of my editing habits. Even a cursory glance at my User contributions page here[14] will convince you that I edit many, many articles which have absolutely nothing to do with alt.med. The project has nothing to fear from me.
- DrChrissy (talk) 18:50, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- I understand what you are saying. What I'm trying to figure out is whether you intend on inserting sources such as the ones suggested by Atsme above (e.g. sources such as papers published in the Journal of Acupuncture and Meridian Studies). Because if the topic ban is lifted, you would be free to do that. I'm already rather dismayed that Atsme is implying that this is a perfectly acceptable action. Do you think it is? jps (talk) 19:10, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- JPS, you clearly have misgivings about those sources. Perhaps you could explain why. DrChrissy (talk) 19:28, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- JPS, rather than focus on only 1 of the 4 sources I used as examples, what about the other sources, such as American Association of Equine Practitioners, or Journal of Equine Veterinary Science? Do they also not meet MEDRS requirements or qualify as RS? I actually didn't filter them as I would when citing an article rather it was simply to example the coverage of equine treatments. It would appear to me that providing 4 sources on the topic would carry some weight. Atsme📞📧 19:35, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- PS: here's a book review in another vet journal The Veterinary Journal. The book review concludes, Acupuncture has increasingly become more generally accepted due to its positive results, which have been supported by scientific studies and conventional neurophysiological explanations. Xie’s Veterinary Acupuncture is a comprehensive tome and helps to further demystify the Eastern aspects of this therapy. I can certainly understand it if our MEDRS guidelines were written specifically to accommodate veterinary medicine/treatments but MEDRS was written for humans, not horses, dogs and cats. Surely you will agree that the variables are wide and far reaching. Your focus appears to be on human applications which further substantiates the need for animal experts like DrChrissy. Placebos do not effect results in animal studies. Atsme📞📧 19:53, 11 March 2016 (UTC) College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Florida which I would think is credible, and only one of many applying this practice. 20:10, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- JPS, rather than focus on only 1 of the 4 sources I used as examples, what about the other sources, such as American Association of Equine Practitioners, or Journal of Equine Veterinary Science? Do they also not meet MEDRS requirements or qualify as RS? I actually didn't filter them as I would when citing an article rather it was simply to example the coverage of equine treatments. It would appear to me that providing 4 sources on the topic would carry some weight. Atsme📞📧 19:35, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- JPS, you clearly have misgivings about those sources. Perhaps you could explain why. DrChrissy (talk) 19:28, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- I understand what you are saying. What I'm trying to figure out is whether you intend on inserting sources such as the ones suggested by Atsme above (e.g. sources such as papers published in the Journal of Acupuncture and Meridian Studies). Because if the topic ban is lifted, you would be free to do that. I'm already rather dismayed that Atsme is implying that this is a perfectly acceptable action. Do you think it is? jps (talk) 19:10, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- JPS, while I respect your scientific knowledge, I still think it's only fair to equally respect DrChrissy's knowledge. My experience regarding alt or complementary treatments is limited; therefore, whenever I'm involved in writing, reviewing or ce an article that includes such information, I have long since learned to always look to MEDRS and high quality RS. In the case of equine treatments, I actually do have some knowledge based on 40+ years of vet bills, and also working with Texas A&M to help develop embryo transfers in horses. I am not a veterinarian and being a skeptic of sorts while still maintaining an open mind to unlimited possibilities, it's just good common sense to do the research. I have very limited knowledge about acupuncture in humans - I don't believe it works - but in order to respond here, I did the research because horses aren't human. At that point, I would look to DrChrissy for his expertise. I found the following sources that would easily pass MEDRS regarding acupuncture in horses:
- So, I think the concern of many (including myself) is that you would be inclined toward slanting Wikipedia toward credulity regarding alternative medicine. This seems, to me anyway, to be part of the reason you were topic banned in the first place. What would be unfortunate is if this ended up happening because we'd all end up back here and things worse than topic bans would be on the table. I cannot tell from what you've posted above as to how likely that is to occur. You know that you and I have had our fair share of clashes and I got the impression from those disagreements that you are much more accommodating of alternative medicine than I am. That's neither here nor there, but the question for me is how likely are you to, say, start writing content that endorses as evidence-based such questionable practices as veterinary acupuncture (to pick one of many possibilities out at random). I have been made aware that there seems to be a higher tolerance of "alternative medicine" within certain veterinary communities and it isn't clear to me whether your perspective is that this is a WP:MAINSTREAM approach or whether it is just an example of how certain credulity can creep in without decent evidence. The approach at Wikipedia should be one that doesn't accommodate peculiar beliefs that have insulated themselves from evaluation. It is my fear that this will be the direction in which you will go. Can you see why? jps (talk) 01:42, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
Shallow justifications all and I am not going to be drawn into a long discussion as to why, for example, double blinding is needed in veterinary medicine (that you don't realize this is indicative of some really shoddy critical thinking skills). I understand that pseudoscience is attractive. Hell, the San Diego Zoo had a feature article on how they cure arthritis in koalas with acupuncture. The point is, though, that there is zero scientific basis for the existence of the things that acupuncture requires for it to work. Now, that acupuncture happens in the context of veterinary medicine is undeniable. But claims that there are reasons to believe it is effective, evidence based, or anything more than a waste of money are extreme WP:FRINGE opinions. I get the impression that neither you nor DrChrissy understand this from the way you are accepting of poor sourcing on the matter. If you cannot understand that the Journal of Acupuncture and Meridian Studies is a fringe journal, there is no way you should be editing Wikipedia articles on the subject.
Competence required means in part that you have to be able to sift the best stuff from the bullshit. This is especially the case when writing Wikipedia articles. I don't see that this ability is here and thus it is not a good idea for you to edit anything related to alternative medicine.
jps (talk) 22:09, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- JPS - I do not understand your use of the term "double blinding". Double blinding means both the researcher and the subject are blind to whether they are administering/receiving a treatment or a placebo. So in human studies, the researcher giving the pill to the human does not know whether it is a treatment or a placebo. The person swallowing the tablet also does not know whether it is a treatment or placebo. In veterinary science, how would the dog/cat/horse know whether it was a placebo or not? It is already blind to the study. Unless Dr Doolittle is a reality. DrChrissy (talk) 22:27, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- JPS - regarding the sources issue. Please note I have not said whether I would accept or reject those sources. Of course, ultimately it all comes down to context. I have never heard of the Journal of Acupuncture and Meridian Studies before today and I asked you a direct question about why you find it a fringe publication. I remain uneducated about this journal. Please give a direct answer to a direct question. DrChrissy (talk) 22:37, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- It is journal for true believers in acupuncture. jps (talk) 23:00, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- I am not sure what the difference is between a "true believer" and a "believer" but notwithstanding this, the use of the journal would depend on the context. Rather ironically, this is exactly the lesson I learned from my topic ban. DrChrissy (talk) 00:15, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- It is journal for true believers in acupuncture. jps (talk) 23:00, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
JPS - I concede to your expertise regarding the Journal of Acupuncture and Meridian Studies, and struck it. Please consider it gone from this discussion. Now then, please correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're trying to relay is that all veterinary articles in all Journals regarding equine acupuncture suck. Correct? And your evidence is based on human trials, correct? Atsme📞📧 22:49, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Efficacy trials are only relevant if you have don't have strong priors against a regimen. Unless carefully controlled, they give no information if there is no functional mechanism. The pseudoscientific basis for meridians is the killer. jps (talk) 23:08, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Perhaps during the trials, vets should discuss symptoms with their patients and have them sign a disclosure. 😆 I also know that treatments we wouldn't imagine to be successful on humans are incredibly successful on certain animals - canines and equines specifically. For example, chocolate can kill a dog whereas a bit of chocolate and a cold beer does wonders for me. Horses like beer, but they curl their noses up at a delicious Ruth's Chris steak. Turpentine on the soles of a hoof work wonders, but I doubt it would work on my toenails. Just saying. Atsme📞📧 23:41, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Folks, this has all gotten off into a tangent here that is, at best, only abstractly related to behavioural issues of the single editor that are the main point of this thread. Not withstanding my !vote above, I tend to favour an editorial approach of deep skepticism when weighting MEDRS-based claims, so I understand the concern here--and the impulse to examine these issues at length in the context of considering DrChrissy's past (and probable future) behaviour. That said, I think it's clear that each of you has come to a determination as to where you think the lines of appropriate editorial behaviour in this regard lay and how you think DrChrissy will approach such matters. Since none of you seem likely to be swayed to change your !vote at this point, and endless cycle of lengthy posts about the nature of MEDRS in the context of alternative medicine can only serve to further clog this thread, on a forum that is not the best place to discuss these matters at length. So unless one of you has further evidence to present relevant to DrChrissy's immediate case, what do you say we cap this tangent here or move it to someone's talk page? Snow let's rap 00:22, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks Snow - I had drafted the same thought but got caught in an edit conflict. I for one am happy to see this capped. DrChrissy (talk) 00:29, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- I acknowledge that this is the typical desire, but it is something of a shame because I think we were just getting down to the point of actually figuring out where the distance lies. For example, Atsme above compares the canine sensitivity to theobromine to an idea that maybe energetic meridians exist. It's exactly this kind of back-and-forth that is useful, but essentially never occurs on talkpages be they article or user because the context of such venues is not to deal with the underlying issues. Here we have a useful opportunity to actually dialogue because the stakes are higher, and it seems to me one of the problems with Wikipedia's WP:BURO is that productive conversations get shut down as unproductive as tangential when they're really the consequential point. People may know that I think ultimately behavior matters far less than competence with content. For the record, I have not voted (and will not be voting) in this game of let's find a rule. jps (talk) 02:08, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- No one is saying that you two shouldn't have this conversation or that it's per se unproductive. But ANI is not the place for--indeed, is arguably the very least appropriate space on the entire project for--protracted discussions on approaches to content. Snow let's rap 09:17, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- You are derailing a productive discussion. ANI is not the place for a lot of things, but they happen here anyway, and not bureaucracy advises that good things should be allowed to happen regardless of the rules. This section is short by ANI standards, and the above back-and-forth is the closest I have ever seen to a meeting of minds on an important issue. Johnuniq (talk) 09:43, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- And the reason this meeting of the minds can't take place elsewhere?
- You are derailing a productive discussion. ANI is not the place for a lot of things, but they happen here anyway, and not bureaucracy advises that good things should be allowed to happen regardless of the rules. This section is short by ANI standards, and the above back-and-forth is the closest I have ever seen to a meeting of minds on an important issue. Johnuniq (talk) 09:43, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- No one is saying that you two shouldn't have this conversation or that it's per se unproductive. But ANI is not the place for--indeed, is arguably the very least appropriate space on the entire project for--protracted discussions on approaches to content. Snow let's rap 09:17, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Folks, this has all gotten off into a tangent here that is, at best, only abstractly related to behavioural issues of the single editor that are the main point of this thread. Not withstanding my !vote above, I tend to favour an editorial approach of deep skepticism when weighting MEDRS-based claims, so I understand the concern here--and the impulse to examine these issues at length in the context of considering DrChrissy's past (and probable future) behaviour. That said, I think it's clear that each of you has come to a determination as to where you think the lines of appropriate editorial behaviour in this regard lay and how you think DrChrissy will approach such matters. Since none of you seem likely to be swayed to change your !vote at this point, and endless cycle of lengthy posts about the nature of MEDRS in the context of alternative medicine can only serve to further clog this thread, on a forum that is not the best place to discuss these matters at length. So unless one of you has further evidence to present relevant to DrChrissy's immediate case, what do you say we cap this tangent here or move it to someone's talk page? Snow let's rap 00:22, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Perhaps during the trials, vets should discuss symptoms with their patients and have them sign a disclosure. 😆 I also know that treatments we wouldn't imagine to be successful on humans are incredibly successful on certain animals - canines and equines specifically. For example, chocolate can kill a dog whereas a bit of chocolate and a cold beer does wonders for me. Horses like beer, but they curl their noses up at a delicious Ruth's Chris steak. Turpentine on the soles of a hoof work wonders, but I doubt it would work on my toenails. Just saying. Atsme📞📧 23:41, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
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- The only derailing here I see here is the hijacking of a thread that is meant to be deciding the status of the sanction of a particular editor. There are a literally hundreds of talk spaces on this project where this side discussion would be appropriate. ANI is not one of them. This is not a WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY matter, it's a practical one. This discussion is nowhere near a groundbreaking or unique one with regard to resolving the countless issues of how MEDRS intersects with alternative medicine. Nor is it anywhere near a conclusion in its own right. On any given day ANI has between 20-50 threads composed of between 250,000-600,000 kb of text. That's if we keep it to essential discussion about behavioural issues and away from tangents like these. This thread already has an excess of 100 posts... This is just not the forum for this manner of content discussion and pointing that fact out is not a matter of some sort of blind obsession with technicality, however devoted you are to thrashing this out. Once again, no one is saying this a bad discussion to have (I wouldn't have had variations of it a hundred times myself if I didn't think it was an essential function of editing on science-related articles). But there's absolutely zero reason why it can't be had elsewhere, and it's ANI 101 that it doesn't belong here...Snow let's rap 10:18, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Just pointing out that if this discussion does continue elsewhere at the moment, and I believe it should continue, my TB will prevent me from engaging in it. DrChrissy (talk) 14:51, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Continuing the discussion here, as part of the unban request so DrChrissy can participate, would be valuable to understand how DrChrissy may behave if the ban is removed. For what it is worth a productive discussion could influence me to reconsider my !vote and possible others would reconsider as well. TL;DR - lets use the space to let them discuss the original tangent rather than waste space arguing another tangent about whether they can continue with the original tangent or not. JbhTalk 19:02, 12 March 2016 (UTC) Replaced edit which was reverted without comment by Keith D JbhTalk 20:42, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Just pointing out that if this discussion does continue elsewhere at the moment, and I believe it should continue, my TB will prevent me from engaging in it. DrChrissy (talk) 14:51, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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- The only derailing here I see here is the hijacking of a thread that is meant to be deciding the status of the sanction of a particular editor. There are a literally hundreds of talk spaces on this project where this side discussion would be appropriate. ANI is not one of them. This is not a WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY matter, it's a practical one. This discussion is nowhere near a groundbreaking or unique one with regard to resolving the countless issues of how MEDRS intersects with alternative medicine. Nor is it anywhere near a conclusion in its own right. On any given day ANI has between 20-50 threads composed of between 250,000-600,000 kb of text. That's if we keep it to essential discussion about behavioural issues and away from tangents like these. This thread already has an excess of 100 posts... This is just not the forum for this manner of content discussion and pointing that fact out is not a matter of some sort of blind obsession with technicality, however devoted you are to thrashing this out. Once again, no one is saying this a bad discussion to have (I wouldn't have had variations of it a hundred times myself if I didn't think it was an essential function of editing on science-related articles). But there's absolutely zero reason why it can't be had elsewhere, and it's ANI 101 that it doesn't belong here...Snow let's rap 10:18, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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Unexplained revert Ermmmm...an editor's posting has just been reverted here [15] by another editor. What's happening here, please? DrChrissy (talk) 19:21, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- That sometimes happens on AN/I as the result of an edit conflict. It's a bug that I assume is due to it being such a high volume page. If ithappens again, just restore the reverted material and drop a note on the talk page of the editor who caused it, just to let them know. It's rare -- unless the editor is a troll or otherwise disruptive contributor -- that such reversions are intentional. BMK (talk) 21:49, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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- On his talk page KeithD says it was a mistake, probably made when he was attempting to delete something else entirely. BMK (talk) 21:52, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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- I would very much welcome the opportunity to continue this discussion or others relating to my future editing if the TB is lifted, however, I would not wish to alienate those who might oppose this suggestion. I shall wait to see further comments. DrChrissy (talk) 20:54, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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- On his talk page KeithD says it was a mistake, probably made when he was attempting to delete something else entirely. BMK (talk) 21:52, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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Dismissal of U.S. attorneys controversy - Whitewash of a political article 9 years after the fact?
The article Dismissal of U.S. attorneys controversy was subjected to extensive revision in November/December 2015 by a single editor Bonewah. While I do not wish to assert lack of good faith by Bonewah, the effect of the revisions were to blunt or whitewash the political problem the article described. We had extensive discussions and arguments 9 years ago about this politically hot article, and did what we could to forge a consensus NPOV article (we=myself and a handful of regular editors). The issue that puzzles me is how we can forge such an article after tremendous effort, yet some years later a single editor can appear and undo the essence of the article - I am concerned about this particular article, but find the situation to be a general problem. Perhaps the article needed revision; it was a difficult article to write; and it is to Bonewah's credit that he was willing to take a fresh revision of the article. Nevertheless, we seem to have a new (hydra-headed?) problem on how to accurately reflect the politics of the issue. An editor Yellowdesk has been the long-term caretaker of the article, but it appears that he may have at long last given up defending the article. What I puzzle about is how to preserve articles long-term, when they are persistently attacked with attempts to spin them in particular political directions; long after regular editors have moved on to other things (either in life or wikipedia). Why does a single editor have this authority, long after main development of the article? I thought this incident warranted some advice from experienced editors. Bdushaw (talk) 09:14, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Bdushaw, it is an interesting question that you pose, but I'm afraid this is really not the forum to discuss it. This board is reserved for discussion of specific acts of unambiguous disruption and other behavioural problems which need to be addressed by admins or the community at large. Your question does not so much concern an accusation of bad-faith editing in this instance as it poses a pragmatic issue of editing relevant to the project as a whole. If I may suggest, if you are looking to resolve the instant content issue, you should consider WP:RfC, WP:NPOVN, WP:RSN, or WP:DRN, or a relevant Wikiproject. Alternatively, if you wish to discuss this issue in its broadest strokes, good spots to solicit broad community input are WP:VPP, WP:CD and, again, WP:NPOVN and certain Wikiprojects. Best of luck in either event! Snow let's rap 12:41, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- It seems like regarding issues like these as one-off problems doesn't fully acknowledge editors' efforting to protect pages from attack. What is the point of reaching a knowingly false sense of consensus on a page over and over again, if pages can be predicted to come under endless, subsequent attack ? It's being implied here that editors have to monitor pages for attack. And then you have instances, like above, where that monitoring triggers prejudicial incident reporting. It's not just for this article, mind you. I checked WP:VPP with an open mind, and this issue is discussed there, with no solution, either. Rather than passing this issue off, can we have a substantive discussion ? Because the problem is systemic, the solution must be systemic, too. Maslowsneeds (talk) 13:32, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- If you want an article to be stable, my recommendation is to make sure the article isnt terrible. The article in question is a long desultory mess, as is common in articles that are written while some "controversy" is unfolding. Also, you would do well to at least try and engage me in the talk page before claiming that the article is under "attack". A bit of good faith would be appreciated here. Bonewah (talk) 14:08, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- The question is not whether the problems on the page are transient ("one-off") or whether they are reflective of systemic issues. The fact remains that this is a content issue, not a behavioural one, which are meant to be examined in this space. The OP was clear that he doesn't see bad-faith in the attitude or behaviour on the part of the other editor here and without such a factor, there's nothing that can be accomplished here. There are plenty of community spaces which will be perfect for dispute resolution as to the particulars of this article or to host a discussion about the broader issues the OP is concerned about. ANI is not one of them unless/until someone's actions violate our behavioural guidelines and begins to disrupt the article or talk page in that way. Snow let's rap 16:27, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Unless you can provide diffs to indicate disruptive editing, it might be appropriate to request content dispute resolution at the dispute resolution noticeboard or a request for formal mediation. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:25, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- It seems like regarding issues like these as one-off problems doesn't fully acknowledge editors' efforting to protect pages from attack. What is the point of reaching a knowingly false sense of consensus on a page over and over again, if pages can be predicted to come under endless, subsequent attack ? It's being implied here that editors have to monitor pages for attack. And then you have instances, like above, where that monitoring triggers prejudicial incident reporting. It's not just for this article, mind you. I checked WP:VPP with an open mind, and this issue is discussed there, with no solution, either. Rather than passing this issue off, can we have a substantive discussion ? Because the problem is systemic, the solution must be systemic, too. Maslowsneeds (talk) 13:32, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- You can certainly dispute the large-scale removal of content from an article but you're making a serious accusation of biased editing against an established editor in good standing, and you've provided exactly zero evidence to support your claim that a problem even exists. This is not the way to collaborate on this website. There is nothing inherently wrong with trimming down articles and it's borderline comical to say this user should abide by discussions that took place a decade ago—as we all know, consensus can change. If you're seeing actual problems you should specifically point them out and explain what's wrong and discuss how you can work together and seek dispute resolution if necessary. However this is clearly a good faith content dispute which is being discussed, and not something that requires admin intervention. Swarm ♠ 08:08, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Upfront, I acknowledge that this posting was not the best approach to the problem; apologies. To be clear, however, I did not accuse - my posting was about the general problem of how political articles get spun after the interested editors have moved on to other things. The effect of Bonewah's edits was to downplay the seriousness of the incident the article describes; editor Aquillon has restored most of the article. Bonewah's repeated statements as to how terrible the article was and how he did not see what the main problems of the incident were, together with the subsequent lengthy exchanges with editor Aquillion on the Talk page ("Lets get started -- fallout section" and below; those sorts of all-too-familiar exchanges are what I did not want to get into all over again), do lead me to the opinion that Bonewah is a bit disingenuous. If he doesn't understand the nature of the political controversy, why is he making major edits to the article? There are lots of new references to consult understand the issue, besides the wikipedia article. But the essence of the problem is often never really explicit - metaphorically, after the article is written, the lights are turned off and the editors have left the building, the white washers creep in, and without editors maintaining vigilance the nature/POV of the article can change dramatically. One obvious change to this particular article was the removal of the word "unprecedented" in the lead sentence (now restored) - the word and what it represents was well cited and a key factor to the original controversy; the word was removed and restored numerous times as the article developed. One factor is that most often links to supported references are no longer available, so the argument is that such references should be deleted, hence justifying content removal (example in "Lets get started -- fallout section" Talk section). Part of my concern is motivated by my experience with the related article on Bradley Schlozman where the editors Boxcutterman and Art88m3 , both single purpose accounts, whitewashed some of the pointed elements of that article; see the Talk page. Another example is the discussion of this controversy in the related article Alberto Gonzales, that bears little resemblance to the controversy described by this Dismissal of USAs article. In the end, and happy to have this incident closed with no action, there may be no solution to the problem other than continued vigilance, or to quietly let such articles drift in POV. The nature of politics is the endless battle! Bdushaw (talk) 09:28, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- For the record this diff documents when the word "unprecedented" was removed. Just above this change is a note admonishing editors not to remove the word "unprecedented" without discussing on the Talk page. Bdushaw (talk) 12:15, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, I think it is indeed to some extent the case that if it is important to you to see a particular version of content preserved, you will have to be vigilant on the matter. That doesn't necessarily reflect a "systemic flaw" in the Wikipedia model so much as a consequence of the basic reality of the project. We don't lock down articles once we think they are "perfect", we keep them open so that additional future sources/understanding, or just practical augmentations, can be applied. But that's not to say that you are without resources if you feel that a certain issue of consensus or another sound editorial decision is being undone. You have several content-oriented noticeboards you can take such issues to, you have (especially in this instance) numerous Wikiprojects where you can recruit perspectives, you have mechanics like WP:RfC and WP:Third opinion to solicit outside opinions, you have central community spaces like WP:Village pump and WP:Central discussion to discuss the broader issues you are concerned about here and, perhaps most germane to the article in question here, you have available to you numerous avenues of WP:Dispute resolution to hopefully help you and the other editor come to a reasonable middle-ground approach that might very well result in an article that suits both of you as superior to what is there now (it's not unheard of).
- Upfront, I acknowledge that this posting was not the best approach to the problem; apologies. To be clear, however, I did not accuse - my posting was about the general problem of how political articles get spun after the interested editors have moved on to other things. The effect of Bonewah's edits was to downplay the seriousness of the incident the article describes; editor Aquillon has restored most of the article. Bonewah's repeated statements as to how terrible the article was and how he did not see what the main problems of the incident were, together with the subsequent lengthy exchanges with editor Aquillion on the Talk page ("Lets get started -- fallout section" and below; those sorts of all-too-familiar exchanges are what I did not want to get into all over again), do lead me to the opinion that Bonewah is a bit disingenuous. If he doesn't understand the nature of the political controversy, why is he making major edits to the article? There are lots of new references to consult understand the issue, besides the wikipedia article. But the essence of the problem is often never really explicit - metaphorically, after the article is written, the lights are turned off and the editors have left the building, the white washers creep in, and without editors maintaining vigilance the nature/POV of the article can change dramatically. One obvious change to this particular article was the removal of the word "unprecedented" in the lead sentence (now restored) - the word and what it represents was well cited and a key factor to the original controversy; the word was removed and restored numerous times as the article developed. One factor is that most often links to supported references are no longer available, so the argument is that such references should be deleted, hence justifying content removal (example in "Lets get started -- fallout section" Talk section). Part of my concern is motivated by my experience with the related article on Bradley Schlozman where the editors Boxcutterman and Art88m3 , both single purpose accounts, whitewashed some of the pointed elements of that article; see the Talk page. Another example is the discussion of this controversy in the related article Alberto Gonzales, that bears little resemblance to the controversy described by this Dismissal of USAs article. In the end, and happy to have this incident closed with no action, there may be no solution to the problem other than continued vigilance, or to quietly let such articles drift in POV. The nature of politics is the endless battle! Bdushaw (talk) 09:28, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
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- My personal suggestion is that the best approach to the present dispute is to first try an RfC. If that somehow fails to generate a useful consensus on the disputed content, take the issue to WP:DRN. If that fails because one party or other is being obstinate or you just can't seem to see eye-to-eye, take the matter to WP:NPOVN. I would say that, following that path, it is virtually impossible that you won't come to some functional consensus along the way. But the ultimate point here is that ANI is not a content-oriented noticeboard. Unless you are alleging (and can support with diffs) a disruptive pattern of behaviour on the part of another editor, there's no point in a thread here, and we won't be making any content decisions in this space. Best of luck, though. And if you try RfC and get too few responses, please feel free to ping me to the discussion and I will cast an !vote. Snow let's rap 00:20, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for the thoughtful reply. By way of feedback, I did try to carefully read the instructions at the top of this page; forgive me, I do stumble around on wikipedia sometimes. But perhaps the instructions might be modified a bit - e.g., highlight that this page is for behavioral issues or requiring active intervention or remedy, or even just add RfC to "Are you in the right place?". Bdushaw (talk) 05:59, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- My personal suggestion is that the best approach to the present dispute is to first try an RfC. If that somehow fails to generate a useful consensus on the disputed content, take the issue to WP:DRN. If that fails because one party or other is being obstinate or you just can't seem to see eye-to-eye, take the matter to WP:NPOVN. I would say that, following that path, it is virtually impossible that you won't come to some functional consensus along the way. But the ultimate point here is that ANI is not a content-oriented noticeboard. Unless you are alleging (and can support with diffs) a disruptive pattern of behaviour on the part of another editor, there's no point in a thread here, and we won't be making any content decisions in this space. Best of luck, though. And if you try RfC and get too few responses, please feel free to ping me to the discussion and I will cast an !vote. Snow let's rap 00:20, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
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Harrassment by User:Sir Sputnik
Most everyone seems to be on the same page here. Sir Sputnik is well-advised that using a block-warning template should be reserved for unambiguously disruptive behaviour, not just instances where one is strongly at odds with another contributor, and that this can be viewed as a lack of perspective on what represents reasonable difference of opinion in the consensus-generating process. However, the behaviour falls way short of "harassment" in the sense of anything that needs to be dealt with here.
On the flip side, 86.17.222.157 should consider that blanket accusations that their opposition's view are based on "wikilawyering" and not "the real world" look pretty pointedly un-WP:AGF-like, and that may have been what predisposed Sir Sputnik to viewing their comments as uncivil in tone (though I think we mostly all agree said comments did not cross the line into blatant incivility all the same).
I trust from discussion here that both editors are capable of proceeding from here in a civil manner and in an effort to reach a reasonable middle-ground and/or consensus decision. Snow let's rap 21:31, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I received this warning from User:Sir Sputnik about this edit that I made. My edit can't conceivably be construed as vandalism, so the warning constitutes an attempt to prevent discussion by someone who disagrees with "abiding by the letter of a policy or guideline while violating its spirit or underlying principles" and "asserting that the technical interpretation of the policies and guidelines should override the underlying principles they express", both of which form part of the definition of wikilawyering. This is not the first time that this editor has tried to prevent me from expressing an opinion that differs from his (I assume from the "Sir" in the user id that this is a he rather than a she), so I would ask that action be taken to prevent such harrassment. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 20:50, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- Sir Sputnik's warning was unwarranted, but so are your accusations of "harassment". Nothing to see here, LAME etc. Both move on. GiantSnowman 20:53, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- I would prefer a response to this by an uninvolved administrator, i.e. someone other than a member of the football wikiproject who makes the same "fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL" comment without explanation in every deletion discussion about a football player outside of Western Europe, most of which are started by User:Sir Sputnik. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 21:38, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
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- I'm not involved. But hey IP if you know me/WP:FOOTBALL so well why don't you log back into your account rather than hide behind an IP address? GiantSnowman 22:04, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- This is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, including those who choose to reveal their IP addresses rather than use a silly pseudonym. I am certainly not "hiding", so please withdraw that comment. And yes, you are involved, because you took part in (if you can call making your usual uninformative comment "taking part"), the discussion in which User:Sir Sputnik seems to think that I should be given a level 4 warning for making a logical argument. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 22:25, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not involved. But hey IP if you know me/WP:FOOTBALL so well why don't you log back into your account rather than hide behind an IP address? GiantSnowman 22:04, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm completely uninvolved. Wikipedia's definition of vandalism is very clear, and the edit by 86.17.222.15 was certainly not vandalism and the warning was unwarranted. But at the same time, I don't see anything rising to the level of harassment or that needs any admin action. Listen to the big cold guy and move on. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:00, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- This was the result of a simple mis-click in twinkle. I had intended to warn the IP for incivility. Apparently, I did not properly click on the drop down menu of warnings, which meant that it defaulted to option 1, the vandalism tag. My bad. Sir Sputnik (talk) 22:08, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- But it was not incivility either. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 22:19, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- This was the result of a simple mis-click in twinkle. I had intended to warn the IP for incivility. Apparently, I did not properly click on the drop down menu of warnings, which meant that it defaulted to option 1, the vandalism tag. My bad. Sir Sputnik (talk) 22:08, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
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- I would prefer a response to this by an uninvolved administrator, i.e. someone other than a member of the football wikiproject who makes the same "fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL" comment without explanation in every deletion discussion about a football player outside of Western Europe, most of which are started by User:Sir Sputnik. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 21:38, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
- There's clearly nothing wrong with your comments in that discussion and certainly nothing that merited any sort of warning for any sort of misconduct including incivility. So...you're free to remove it and carry on. That's really all there is to it. Ignore the empty warnings. Sputnik, it's not helpful to issue repeated templated warnings to an opponent in a dispute unless there is a serious or clear-cut violation going on and there definitely wasn't one here. Please stop bothering this user with warnings and focus on the discussion itself. Can we all move on? Swarm ♠ 07:44, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
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- As long as Sir Sputnik takes that message on board I will no longer feel intimidated from taking part in discussions, so agree that no further action will be needed. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 09:13, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
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- It would be nice to get a confirmation from User:Sir Sputnik (who I note has been editing for the last few hours) that he has taken that message on board so that we can close this discussion. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 20:29, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
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- I don't think Sir Sputnik "gets" it though, judging that he still maintains "a warning is in order". IPs are humans too, and Sir Sputnik's behaviour is just another example of the overall environment the causes decline in editors because of the hostile environment. Suggest not to close this yet. OhanaUnitedTalk page 00:44, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Sir Sputkik's silence is becoming deafening here. Maybe he hasn't watchlisted this discussion, so could someone ask him if he wants to respond here? I don't think he would take kindly to a request from me. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 20:41, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
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- What is supposed to happen when the subject of a report here fails to engage with the conversation, despite carrying on editing? Do we wait for ever before doing anything? 86.17.222.157 (talk) 20:58, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
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- It's clear to everyone that the warnings aren't warranted and I do agree with Ohana above. That being said, if he refuses to cooperate in this thread, I don't believe there's anything we can or should do at this moment. It's apparent that everyone who's reviewed the situation is in agreement that the warnings were inappropriate and I hope the point has been made. People may get a message without acknowledging they were wrong, and if that is the case, then great. Worst case scenario, WP:ROPE comes into play. If he ignores the input here and continues issuing intimidatory warnings without justification, then it would cross into seriously actionable territory, IMO. This incident itself is regrettable but not that severe. If it persists or proves to be a pattern, that would be another story. Swarm ♠ 23:49, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Well then, I suppose this discussion should be closed. I note that such a refusal to take part in discussion, rather than just throw around templates and boilerplate links to policies, is typical of the behaviour in deletion discussions of both the subject of this discussion and the involved administrator who tried to close it down three minutes after I started it. That behaviour certainly feels very much like harrassment when you're on the receiving end, and I'm sure that many new editors would just walk away from Wikipedia rather than bring this to wider attention as I, as an experienced editor, have done. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 19:59, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
European Graduate School
This is a questionable institution which has been the subject of a very long term campaign by a succession of WP:SPAs over a number of years to whitewash criticism of its accreditation status. The latest is Claidioalv (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log). If you review the Talk page you will see that the same demand is repeated over and over and over again. This is a case of WP:RGW, WP:IDHT and WP:TE. I think it is time this user was banned from that article, it is very clear that they are not here to contribute to a neutral body of knowledge, only to whitewash a questionable institution.
I originally blocked the account as a sock and unblock was declined by two admins but a third unblocked because it was likely meatpuppetry not sockpuppetry (fair, but of questionable relevance as we don't really treat the two differently) and the user was "not being disruptive". I would say the user now is being disruptive and actually I'd argue that they always were, since this is part of a long term POV-pushing campaign, but whatever. No criticism of the unblocking admin, who assumed good faith, but WP:AGF is not a suicide pact. Guy (Help!) 09:37, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think you meant Claudioalv (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log). CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 11:56, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- As a sidenote: the page is fully protected, which kind of nullifies part of the unblocking administrators reasoning that Claudioalv didn't try to edit the article. I had a short look at the French page about the institution, which comes along a little shorter and completely avoids any mention of accreditation status...but I admit the singlemindedness with which the accreditation topic is tackled again and again leaves me suspecting a strong COI and meatpuppetry. Lectonar (talk) 12:09, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks, I cannot type for toffee (burn scars on my left hand). Guy (Help!) 16:28, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: The article was indefinitely full-protected 10 days ago. There's an RfC which was opened by Vanjagenije a week ago [16], which should resolve at least one issue the user in question (Claudioalv) has been trying to address. By the way no SPI was filed or CU requested, but the user was indef blocked by JzG after only two edits (both to the talk page). While JzG may have some observational behavioral evidence to back that up, he seems to be acting as judge, jury, and executioner on this article and the users trying to edit it. There's also an ArbCom Request on the subject going on at this time. While I think it's commendable that JzG is looking over this article, I think his entire modus operandi is a little excessive and I think that the article and situation needs more eyes and more admin eyes, not a single-handed dictatorship. The article (or user) should have been brought to ANI or to administrative attention prior to this single-handed harshness, in my opinion. As in some other cases, I think JzG needs to dial back his intensity and POV, and allow for the fact that even COI users have a right to attempt to correct items on Wikipedia, and if there is a concern it should probably be brought to ANI or another noticeboard or investigation board before it blows up on so many fronts like this. Softlavender (talk) 05:16, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Edited to add: And *sigh* now there's a Request for mediation filed: Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/European Graduate School article content - Accreditation issue. In my mind we have a clueless newbie editor and an overzealous admin; not a great mix, especially when in my mind neither of them is really listening to what the other is saying or trying to say. -- Softlavender (talk) 08:13, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- I am presently in the midst of reading Ian Kershaw's two-volume biography of Hitler. Let me assure you, JzG is not imposing a "dictatorship." We have enough problems on Wikipedia without hyperbole like this. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 05:26, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Well, however we phrase it, I have to agree with Softlavender that it is problematic to block an editor after two edits without a CU, unless there is transparent discussion about the behavioural evidence. I trust Guy's perspective here, certainly, but when it comes to blocks, I think policy and appropriate caution require more. I won't say that I can't envisage instances when reflexive blocking might make sense, but I'm sure Guy understands why this can be viewed as problematic, especially when it is not a one-off action, but part of a broader effort that may have some suggestion of WP:INVOLVED. Snow let's rap 02:02, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- I am heartily sick of this user. Look at the recent edit history, including trying to take this to ArbCom. So we can now add WP:FORUMSHOP to WP:TE, WP:IDHT, WP:RGW, WP:SYN and all the others. Banhammer, please. This is not about an "over zealous admin", check the article's history, there are a mountain of single purpose accounts - including socks and puppeteers. This is a long-term programme of POV-pushing plainly orchestrated by the school, a more aggressive version of what happens at Bircham International University ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Guy (Help!) 12:01, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Kudos to Guy for reality-based adminning. BMK (talk) 03:43, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- BMK is correct. There are lots of highly dubious organizations which earn money by selling fake academic qualifications, and their #1 priority is to fix their Wikipedia article. Anyone wanting to support the SPAs should think hard about text they add because this diff shows a claim that the school is accredited in Malta—the ref used to support that has a title starting "School that spawns activists...". Such WP:UNDUE material should not be used to obfuscate the core issue, namely that the organization is not accredited in the U.S., and Texas says it issues "fraudulent or substandard degrees". AGF is great, but reality also needs to be considered. Johnuniq (talk) 04:46, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
User:Mhhossein and SaffV reported for harassment
Both of these users User:Mhhossein and User:Saff V. have been involved with me in various content disputes. The pattern of editing is that one of them will place some highly POV or hagiographic text in an article, when it is taken out they will either try to force me to abandon my efforts or they will try to intimidate me. This intimidation involves biating me repeatedly until I say something which they use as a personal attack and shift the topic of discussion from the article to the editor. Their modus operandi involves
- Reverting my cleanup edits with the sole reason being "You do not have my consent".
- Repeated reports frivolous and false reports at Administrator noticeboards which were declined with no action. for example This , This huge huge discussion that was useless and this latest discussion.
- Repeated reverts without giving any reason. Like here
- Reverting with the excuse that there is "ongoing discussion" even when the discussion at TP agrees with my edits and un involved editors go as far as to thank me.
- Making statements to the effect that "I just reverted you but I will not discuss It, I am going to ping some of my friends, discuss with them". like here
Now it is quite clear that these reports and long drawn out thread like discussion take a toll on everyone. So I am proposing that as per policy at WP:IBAN an interaction ban be imposed indefinitely.
- Both users are banned from editing my user and talk pages;
- Both users are banned from replying to me discussions;
- Both users are banned from undo my edits to any page, whether by use of the revert function or by other means;
The gist of the matter is that these guys have been harassing me for like 2 months now and an I-Ban is the best thing for everyone. Admins and other users will not have to waste time in the reports and the long discussions that follow. Hossein and SaffV will be able to edit and add to the wikipedia so we are not loosing editors, and I can get back to editing like a normal person without being dragged to ANI or 3PR everytime I edit an article. I am pinging some people who have been involved in this since the onset. Pinging User:Drmies (who will be pissed that he has pinged once again, but pleased that this will be a permanent solution) and User:Jeppiz(we disagree off and on, so balances out the canvass :P). People with the latest input in this @ 3pr thread were User:Malik Shabazz, User:Dr.K. and User:BlueMoonset. People who contributed to the long debate a month ago were User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi and User:HyperGaruda. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 10:50, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not personally seeing enough diffs to justify the accusations of harassment or the extensive I-Ban as proposed. Reverting wholesale removal of cited information, especially when it completely gutted the article, is not harassment. Reverting the removal of a massive amount of cited text while a discussion is ongoing and before there is any consensus or WP:DR is not harassment. Plus you are complaining that one of the users pinged two supporters in a conflict with you, but you just now pinged six+ of your own supporters in this ANI filing. Softlavender (talk) 11:04, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Softlavender the removal of a massive amount of cited text is allowed when you take a look at the TP and see that everyone except one guy is for removing it. You can check the dates of TP discussion and my "removal". I am not complaining that he pinged other users. My complaint is simpler. "He never bothered to engage in discussion, rather he reverted and told me that he will not even discuss". FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 11:21, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- OK, I see your point about that POV/quotefarm-removal edit, but one diff is not enough to prove your case. Also, I don't see SaffV refusing to discuss with you, however I do see him struggling with English and asking for help. And in any case per WP:BRD you needed to gain talk-page consensus for your gutting of the article before attempting to do that again, but there was no such consensus and you edit-warred and kept gutting it. Softlavender (talk) 11:43, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Softlavender the removal of a massive amount of cited text is allowed when you take a look at the TP and see that everyone except one guy is for removing it. You can check the dates of TP discussion and my "removal". I am not complaining that he pinged other users. My complaint is simpler. "He never bothered to engage in discussion, rather he reverted and told me that he will not even discuss". FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 11:21, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose the I-Ban as construed above. Editing on different sides of contentious topics is no cause to ban someone from reverting one's edits. Better all three editors should receive a widely construed topic ban on all of these sorts of articles. Since that is unrealistic, there are probably Arb sanctions like DS in force for these articles, and if not, perhaps a 1RR or 2RR restriction should be instituted so that WP:DR is always used in these content disputes rather than edit wars and ANI filings. Beyond that, the OP is, like anyone, free to ban anyone from his talk page. Softlavender (talk) 12:19, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Support Interaction ban with Mhhossein, their baseless accusations have been seen at enough boards over an extended period of time to be considered harrassment now. No comment on other user. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:48, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: To be frank all what came above was to me just Victim playing (I suggest the users to have a look at that page) by trying to "diverting attention away from his acts of abuse" and/or "soliciting sympathy from others". Let's see the real fact behind his accusations.
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- He said:"This intimidation involves biating me repeatedly until I say something which they use as a personal attack!" the users who have experienced interacting with FreeatlastChitchat know that he has repeatedly attacked various users (not only me or the other reported user) and I don't think being "biated" (if we assume has happened) is a suitable reason for calling others "Liar" or telling others that you have "mental disease." Fortunately, the so called huge discussion has turned into a collection of FreeatlastChitchat's personal attacks and uncivilities, where among other things he used the "F" word and its derivatives multiple times and called users "Imbecilic liar" so that he received a heavy warning from an admin [17].
- What he calls "frivolous and false reports" (such as the mentioned ones) were mostly stemming from his inability to participate in the talk page discussions, tending to make mass removals and using "colorful language", and that's why he's a user of being reported by various users on a monthly basis. By the way, I would not call them "false" as they led to warnings or cautions, at least. For example, in the "huge discussion" the closing admin told me that my comments were fine, followed policy, and were very helpful. Moreover, I think FreeatlastChitchat (the reporter) forgot to mention that this report where the closing admin said there were "major civility issues with FreeatlastChitchat's mode of dialogue with other Wikipedians, as evidenced by their posts here in this discussion and by their talk page contributions elsewhere."
- Nearly always, I have tried to engage in discussions on the talk page and to build a consensus (you can see my activity on the TPs). Getting thanks from users has no special meaning. At least it does not necessarily prove that one's edit had been toward the consensus, specially where there had been no clear consensus on removing or keeping something.
- Although per a suggestion from a user, I had aimed to drop some issues off, I have to take fresh personal attacks by FreeatlastChitchat here; He told me that I was "tripping on acid" or "belonged in a place where I should be taken care of on hourly basis", even noted by uninvolved users. Among other occasions as stated above, he violated civility by using "have his arse on a silver platter". I don't deem it a polite language. Do you?
- As its seen, he did blatantly canvassed nearly six users and I avoid doing so.
- I don't need "I" or any other types of bans. I can gently interact with users on TPs. I think this is FreeatlastChitchat (blocked multiple times) who does not know how to do it. He was also asked by admins "to treat other Wikipedia contributors with respect and dignity", tone his language down (in the huge discussion) and to practice democracy. Mhhossein (talk) 14:41, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Mhhossein you say you feel abused by me. Then an I-Ban is actually in your favor. With the Iban in place I will not be able to talk to you or about you. So basically I am doing you a favor here. If you are actually true in saying that I have abused you then you should be in favor of an I-Ban not against it. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 16:24, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- No! Now that you've came up with this report, all those uncivilities and personal attacks should be taken care of. I'm not, of course, the only editor whom you offended and abused. So, you've to learn how to interact with others. Mhhossein (talk) 16:33, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- I violated no policy while interacting with you, so Why I-Ban on me? Mhhossein (talk) 16:45, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm just here to say good luck to everyone. One day you will all be blocked indefinitely if you keep going like this--though I guess it's nice of Freeatlast to seek a solution. However, iBans are usually more trouble than they're worth, as the regulars know. Have a great day, Drmies (talk) 16:41, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Somehow I didn't get the ping by Freeatlast. I came here after checking the report at 3RRN. My only comment here is that I don't appreciate being labeled as Freeatlast's "supporter". I appreciate Freeatlast's removal of the WP:QUOTEFARM from the Iran-US incident and I have thanked him for it. But agreeing with an editor on an edit, does not make you a "supporter" of said editor. This type of characterisation is not helpful because it unnecessarily labels editors who agree on constructive edits. Dr. K. 00:52, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
Oppose Maybe if you'd stop pushing a pro-sunni POV, people would stop getting angry with you, freeatlast. 142.105.159.60 (talk) 22:40, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Suggest a boomerang: The reporter was unable to show his case as the other user said and his report is nonsensical to me. Moreover, he were impolite enough recently. After calling other users liars, imbecilic liar and saying uncivil things multiple times and after multiple warnings by admins to tone down his language, he still show tendency to make personal attacks and be uncivil. I think this a boomerang case. His major civility issues is not resolved yet. His major civility issues are not resolved yet.
- Talk pages are suitable place for talk and after conclusion edit articles. The reporter way is: 1. deleting all text and make an incomplete article without any talk or summary 2. when me or another user revert his/her edit, he/she undo without reliable reasons 3.in the last time when me say to add your reason in the talk page, he/she write meaningless and biased sentences and attack. The reporter must learn to use talk page first and then do major edit. Topic ban is better way for him or her.Saff V. (talk) 05:39, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
Support boomerang: Freeatlastchitchat certainly has serious problems regarding WP:CIVILITY issues. I see that he's also done several personal attacks. One of my experiences interacting with him/her was at [[18]], where he was impolite and used sentences like this: “Don't worry we are not blaming you for "decorating" lol” or “It does not matter what you think”. The fact that he do major edits at articles without explaining them at talk page or trying to participate talk page discussions, like what other editors said, is another serious problem of Freeatlastchitchat. This is while some users pointed out to him that observe this rule but he don’t pay attention. Hence, I think Boomerang is a suitable idea. I also see that he has canvassed multiple users! There were many other users participating in those previous reports and It's interesting that he did not canvassed those who opposed him before.Lstfllw203 (talk) 09:44, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Lstfllw203 when you show even a single edit outside an Iran/Shia hagiographic article, then you can give an opinion. Of course you want me banned, so you lot can just continue to add whatever you want to your beloved articles without anyone reverting your pov edits. FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 11:42, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- User:FreeatlastChitchat, do you oppose the view that "Freeatlastchitchat kept on making uncivil comments and making personal attacks although you were warned by admins to be careful about that"?Lstfllw203 (talk) 13:16, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
User:Yossimgim
Yossimgim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) making disruptive edits lately on Israel article. On other pages that unprotected, the user edit from IP addresses: 109.64.131.137, 79.176.62.204, 79.183.130.71. I'm sure it's the same person because edits appear at the same time and are similar in nature. Here, for some reason, he deleted the same picture from different articles using account and IP: 1, 2. The picture was added by me in both articles recently. Here he made disruptive edit under misleading edit summary: diff. Many edits has been reverted, not only by me. Was blocked three times before (1, 2, 3), constantly erases own talk page from notices, posted inappropriate warrant on my talk page. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 09:52, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
- Some of the edits had misleading edit summary, partially or totally unrelated to the actual edit. “WarKosign” 10:38, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yossimgim has also been rather disruptive in the past at Talk:Natalie Portman, and on user talk pages including my own. Essentially when the argument went against him he posted on everyone's talk pages accusing them of edit warring. — Cliftonian (talk) 14:24, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Found his sockpuppet: Dr. Feldinger (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log). As Yossimgim he added picture of Bar Refaeli to Israel article 15 times, and as Dr. Feldinger once. It was discussed before and account Dr. Feldinger was banned. I don't see how temporary ban will stop him as he appears on Wikipedia occasionally anyway, was banned before 4 times in total, and just continue to add same pictures in different articles for years only to be reverted and then comes back again. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 08:52, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- Have you reported this at WP:SPI? The user and IP's certainly are quacking. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 09:28, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- Just started investigation: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Yossimgim. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 12:05, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- He has been involved in a slow-burn edit war on the Benjamin Disraeli article too, despite a request to use the talk page's open thread on the matter. – – SchroCat (talk) 07:30, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Well the SPI was rejected on the grounds that the Dr. Feldinger case is stale. If this is an entirely new editor (or the sockmaster can't be pinpointed), Yossimgim is a disruptive editor who doesn't demonstrate anything to suggest that s/he is WP:HERE... and is still 'contributing'. I don't see any attempts to engage with other editors (never mind the tone of communications with other editors last time s/he was around). Currently, the only response to other editors has been to delete warnings and carry on regardless. Given that the multiple POINTy IP edits point to this being the same user, this is getting to be unjustifiably irritating. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:08, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
- CU was declined but the SPI is still open and it's pretty clear there is abuse of multiple accounts (the IPs). He's been blocked three times in 2015, perhaps it's time for a longer block if they keep editing while logged out. Softlavender (talk) 12:47, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Iryna Harpy, as Softlavender notes, only the checkuser request was declined. Checkuser relies on technical details that are only retained by the server for a short while, so "stale" means that there's no possible way to conduct the checkuser. Sockpuppet investigations routinely rely on behavioral analysis, so this isn't over yet. Nyttend (talk) 14:28, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Cheers, Softlavender and Nyttend. I know it's difficult to pin down users who are deft at gaming/ducking and diving (whether by accident or by stealth). I'll be keeping my eyes open for IPs and accounts that fit the SPA behavioural patterns in light of the fact that the Yossimgim account alone has an established pattern of a few days of editing, then disappearing for a year. It may be frustrating, but the user will be caught out eventually. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:29, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Iryna Harpy, as Softlavender notes, only the checkuser request was declined. Checkuser relies on technical details that are only retained by the server for a short while, so "stale" means that there's no possible way to conduct the checkuser. Sockpuppet investigations routinely rely on behavioral analysis, so this isn't over yet. Nyttend (talk) 14:28, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- CU was declined but the SPI is still open and it's pretty clear there is abuse of multiple accounts (the IPs). He's been blocked three times in 2015, perhaps it's time for a longer block if they keep editing while logged out. Softlavender (talk) 12:47, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well the SPI was rejected on the grounds that the Dr. Feldinger case is stale. If this is an entirely new editor (or the sockmaster can't be pinpointed), Yossimgim is a disruptive editor who doesn't demonstrate anything to suggest that s/he is WP:HERE... and is still 'contributing'. I don't see any attempts to engage with other editors (never mind the tone of communications with other editors last time s/he was around). Currently, the only response to other editors has been to delete warnings and carry on regardless. Given that the multiple POINTy IP edits point to this being the same user, this is getting to be unjustifiably irritating. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:08, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
It continues – see new section below on this page, and at SPI. Since this topic started, he had three new dynamic IPs to make disruptive edits from (one was blocked for 48 hours) and this thread went to archive, which I restored. I've already asked this at SPI without response so will repeat it here – Is it possible to block his IP ranges? --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 23:36, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
Solaire the knight and Trolls from Olgino
Solaire the knight (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) has been really disruptive at the Trolls from Olgino ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) page. He has been warned multiple times against edit warring, POV pushing and attacking other editors, but to no avail. He doesn't seem to speak English, which is not a problem per se, but makes it nearly impossible to understand his comments, which near gibberish (here, here, here). He fails to propose changes in the talk page or work towards a consensus. He only stopped edit warring after being threatened with a ban from an admin. I've tried working with him in the talk page, proposing multiple compromise positions (here, here, here), but he refuses to work together. He's removed sources from the article as well (here, here, here).
He's also been offensive to other editors multiple times:
- "What a sweet agitation of Ukrainian activists"
- "trying to hide behind the links?"
- "pretending not to understand what it was about"
- "using such populism ignore the Wikipedia rules and powdering my brains demagogy"
- "Over rough demagogy I have not heard"
- "turned to walk around and demagoguery"
- "if you're too shy , I repeat"
Thanks. UCaetano (talk) 16:49, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- In fact , we are dealing with a confident attempt to squeeze me out of the article with the help of provoking war revisions (using the rollback flag ) , walking in a circle on the discussion page of the article (users that break on monologues about " Putin's lies" , then disappear after direct questions on the content of the article , suddenly ceasing to understand me )the leading natural wild arguments so that I have to have to ask them if they think I'm an idiot , that just use such arguments . Or even openly ignoring my attempts to start a discussion first, using a formal occasion. Members are well aware that I badly speak English , so try to make the discussion so viscous and boring , so I escaped and went to the person, accusing them walk in a circle Solaire the knight (talk) 17:07, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- UCaetano is demonstrating destructive behavior by claiming that source that only retranslating other original source contributes to the article. Thus, I see the actions of participants or as an attempt to roll back each of my editing , so I got stuck on the article talk page , or spin it to the level of war to further I been blocked. Solaire the knight (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:14, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
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- If you cannot convince to community of your point of view then you don't get your way. This is the same standard we apply to everybody. Nobody is forcing you to edit war. It may just be that you won't get what you want here. HighInBC 17:23, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- And if the community does not want to listen to ? And users principle, would roll back my edits and wash my brains on the talk page, until I was tired and I did leave, slamming the door? I have often seen such destructive behavior in Russian and Ukrainian Wikipedia , but did not expect that this will be to indulge in the "model " of English. Or should I look calmly , as a participant plays with me , immediately responding to my every remark , but disappearing or ceasing to understand me , when I ask a direct question about the sources of the problems ? Solaire the knight (talk) 17:27, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- For example , here this request now appeared only because the return to the article links, obviously duplicating other references can hardly carry anything other than provocation of war edits. As a result , not having received the expected pullback from me , the participant just decided to get my block the other way . Solaire the knight (talk) 17:35, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- It is still YOUR responsibility to convince other editors and reach a consensus, and do it while being polite, respectful and productive. I know how hard it is, I've been in endless discussions like those before (you can read this one as an example). That's how WP works. UCaetano (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have to jump like a little puppy in front of the users even if they openly sabotage the discussions, including with your submission ? No, I 'm not going to be humiliated in front of a man who does not go to advance the consensus , besides breaking the rules, starts war-edits and ignores the arguments. Solaire the knight (talk) 18:07, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- It is still YOUR responsibility to convince other editors and reach a consensus, and do it while being polite, respectful and productive. I know how hard it is, I've been in endless discussions like those before (you can read this one as an example). That's how WP works. UCaetano (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- For example , here this request now appeared only because the return to the article links, obviously duplicating other references can hardly carry anything other than provocation of war edits. As a result , not having received the expected pullback from me , the participant just decided to get my block the other way . Solaire the knight (talk) 17:35, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- And if the community does not want to listen to ? And users principle, would roll back my edits and wash my brains on the talk page, until I was tired and I did leave, slamming the door? I have often seen such destructive behavior in Russian and Ukrainian Wikipedia , but did not expect that this will be to indulge in the "model " of English. Or should I look calmly , as a participant plays with me , immediately responding to my every remark , but disappearing or ceasing to understand me , when I ask a direct question about the sources of the problems ? Solaire the knight (talk) 17:27, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- If you cannot convince to community of your point of view then you don't get your way. This is the same standard we apply to everybody. Nobody is forcing you to edit war. It may just be that you won't get what you want here. HighInBC 17:23, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
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- This sounds like battleground and competence here... --Tarage (talk) 17:52, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- I dont understand you, what what do you mean? Solaire the knight (talk) 17:57, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:COMPETENCE are what Tarage is referring to. You might also read WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. MarnetteD|Talk 18:14, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- You about it? I know this rules. But then what to do if the participants openly mock me, sabotaged every attempt to begin my discussion of sources and somehow raise the question of the neutrality of the article ? Or need to be more destructive and arrogant than they ? : D — Preceding unsigned comment added by Solaire the knight (talk • contribs) 18:19, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not a beginner and enough to Wikipedia to know about any "attain consensus " and " assume good intentions ." That's just they do not work when in front of you are engaged in POV-pushing Solaire the knight (talk) 18:48, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- You may know the rules, but you sure as heck are not following them. Saying people are 'openly mocking' you is WP:BATTLEGROUND. Your broken English raises WP:COMPETENCE issues. And yes, your instance that everyone else is wrong, and that only reliable sources you like should be counted is WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. You need to step back, or you will be blocked. --Tarage (talk) 19:38, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Do not ascribe to me the thoughts of others . I somewhere said everyone else is wrong , or that you need to use only those sources that I like , how do you do this? I say only one thing : silly talk about the beautiful and kind-hearted things , when the opponent is banal torpedoes discussion rolling away your every edit and provoking you to rollback war. I wrote to the Russian Wikipedia 4 good articles and solved many conflicts , I know how a consensus is reached . But I will never be easy to respond to that , as a member of sabotaging the work of the article , in every way trying to bring me to collapse or be brought under lock. And the rest , you know,that the level of language proficiency does not allow me to seriously engage in a long and difficult discussion on what exactly the participants and hope . Solaire the knight (talk) 20:21, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- You may know the rules, but you sure as heck are not following them. Saying people are 'openly mocking' you is WP:BATTLEGROUND. Your broken English raises WP:COMPETENCE issues. And yes, your instance that everyone else is wrong, and that only reliable sources you like should be counted is WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. You need to step back, or you will be blocked. --Tarage (talk) 19:38, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not a beginner and enough to Wikipedia to know about any "attain consensus " and " assume good intentions ." That's just they do not work when in front of you are engaged in POV-pushing Solaire the knight (talk) 18:48, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- You about it? I know this rules. But then what to do if the participants openly mock me, sabotaged every attempt to begin my discussion of sources and somehow raise the question of the neutrality of the article ? Or need to be more destructive and arrogant than they ? : D — Preceding unsigned comment added by Solaire the knight (talk • contribs) 18:19, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:COMPETENCE are what Tarage is referring to. You might also read WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. MarnetteD|Talk 18:14, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- I dont understand you, what what do you mean? Solaire the knight (talk) 17:57, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
This I what I don't get about our behaviour policies and their implementation. Here we have a fella who couldn't consruct a cognizant English sentence if his life depended on it. When someone like that comes here and starts pushing POV, why do we discuss it endlessly? He is not capable of making a useful contribution and is disruptive. RBI. John from Idegon (talk) 19:47, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yet, what we see here a blame, that I can't construct a sentense, and the blame starts with "This I what I don't get"... no comments. I don't mentioned that all this blame is "ad hominem" as is and such behavior is not acceptable at WP. --Solaire the knight (talk) 20:40, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Note Stk just refactored one of their posts. Just one more example of the WP:COMPETENCE problems. MarnetteD|Talk 20:45, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- In the English Wikipedia edit posts now forbidden? Solaire the knight (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:43, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Note Stk just refactored one of their posts. Just one more example of the WP:COMPETENCE problems. MarnetteD|Talk 20:45, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- "And the rest , you know,that the level of language proficiency does not allow me to seriously engage in a long and difficult discussion on what exactly the participants and hope ." Then do not edit the English wikipedia. I vote Block because the editor clearly cannot communicate in English enough to pass WP:COMPETENCE. --Tarage (talk) 21:29, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Indefinite lock for the level of knowledge of the language ? You remind me of Ukrainian Wikipedia , where one user has called me to block for the post on russian on your user page , which was not against it, and we were talking in Russian to speed up the solution to the problem . Solaire the knight (talk) 21:35, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- You have not read WP:COMPETENCE, which requires competency in English. By your own admission, you do not have this, therefor you should not be editing here. Period. --Tarage (talk) 21:39, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- I read everything , but the first time I hear that for the bal level of the language in the discussion , you have to open insult , persecute and block . At the moment I do not know enough language - I do not climb to write articles and am making contributions at the elementary level only Solaire the knight (talk) 21:48, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- WP:COMPETENCE does not mean "Only edit articles that you can understand." Half of editing is being able to discuss changes with other editors. You cannot do this, and you refuse to understand this. Therefor, you must be removed from the project. --Tarage (talk) 21:54, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
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- How much I learned today of the English Wikipedia . It turns out , it is not only not allowed to edit comments , but also the possibility of openly offend you , ignoring all the rules of " the inadmissibility of abuse " , calling for open persecution in your address. Some are good and tolerant people Solaire the knight (talk) 21:58, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- To whom it may concern: don't throw Competence bricks around, as this is exactly not the thing to do when one has read the essay. Btw, the article is now fully protected for 3 days. All participants are invited to make ample use of the article's talk-page. Lectonar (talk) 22:04, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- And this good idea. Well, I thought my knowledge of the language is already sufficient for the discussion . But apparently not, judging by the insults and aggression of some participants . Well, it removed for further analysis of the sources or enhance the linguistic level. Thank administrators Lectonar and Ymblanter. Solaire the knight (talk) 22:11, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
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- WP:COMPETENCE does not mean "Only edit articles that you can understand." Half of editing is being able to discuss changes with other editors. You cannot do this, and you refuse to understand this. Therefor, you must be removed from the project. --Tarage (talk) 21:54, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- I read everything , but the first time I hear that for the bal level of the language in the discussion , you have to open insult , persecute and block . At the moment I do not know enough language - I do not climb to write articles and am making contributions at the elementary level only Solaire the knight (talk) 21:48, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- You have not read WP:COMPETENCE, which requires competency in English. By your own admission, you do not have this, therefor you should not be editing here. Period. --Tarage (talk) 21:39, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- Indefinite lock for the level of knowledge of the language ? You remind me of Ukrainian Wikipedia , where one user has called me to block for the post on russian on your user page , which was not against it, and we were talking in Russian to speed up the solution to the problem . Solaire the knight (talk) 21:35, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
Solaire the knight left a message on a user's talk page here today saying "I've realized that you masturbate on your proficiency in English". Quite the potty mouth on this disruptive editor. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:48, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
- And to say that I later deleted the post , considered excessive - religion does not allow ? Oh yes, he immediately decided to pursue the users and for that track any of their posts. Solaire the knight (talk) 22:57, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
I'm inclined to agree that this user fails the WP:CIR principle, and not just with regard to his incredibly limited capacity with English; although it's probable that his inability to understand and comport to our policies is exacerbated by his language difficulties, there's also strong evidence of an WP:IDHT mentality, more than a little recourse to incivility, and definitely a failure to accept the consensus-building model of this project. I'm not familiar enough with ru.wikipedia's policies and community to know if his attitudes comport with their guidelines or if his perspectives would reflect a problem editor there as well, but without a doubt this all amounts to disruption and an inability to interact in a collegial fashion here. Under the circumstances, I'd (reluctantly) support a long-term block, with the editor advised to work on their English skills in the interim and return with an attitude that embraces and understanding that they have to form consensus here. Snow let's rap 02:27, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- The problem is that the Russian Wikipedia rules were suddenly much tougher than here. For example, we have strictly prohibited to roll back using the rollback flag. If you would like other members of the above required to block a beginner due to indirect causes , in our section you would have already received warnings for gross violation of Wikipedia: Assume good faith and Wikipedia: Civility. Also, we can not delete from the page discussing recent comments ,especially with the rude comments to revision like " thrash disposal". About circling in the discussion ,war edits without argument and ignoring direct references to the sources of the problem , I will not even talk. That is why I have the impression of deliberately destructive behavior of my opponents , not because I allegedly have " problems with work in a team " Solaire the knight (talk) 02:43, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- But , summing it all seems easier to make me the scapegoat , hanging on me all the discussion of the problem , because I " newcomer" and no one fill sorry for me. As for the rest , I am sorry for the big clumsy text, big size very hard for my english level Solaire the knight (talk)
- Related discussion: WP:COIN#Russian Wikipedia trolls. Since this is already at AN/I, it's an admin matter now. There may be other articles involved;
ReutersThe Guardian reports Russian "Wikipedia trolls" [19] associated with Latvia. Something to watch for. John Nagle (talk) 06:05, 10 March 2016 (UTC)-
- Yes, everyone that have other point of view and not blindly follow official DoS point (according to which we must have seen already a lot of chemical weapon in Iraq) - is payed kremlin troll. I need not to forget recieve my monthly payment! However, if you are so suspicious, you can ask the administrator User Ymblanter, he knows me personally more than 7 years Solaire the knight (talk)
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- Related discussion: WP:COIN#Russian Wikipedia trolls. Since this is already at AN/I, it's an admin matter now. There may be other articles involved;
- But , summing it all seems easier to make me the scapegoat , hanging on me all the discussion of the problem , because I " newcomer" and no one fill sorry for me. As for the rest , I am sorry for the big clumsy text, big size very hard for my english level Solaire the knight (talk)
Just adding more info, it's worth looking at his comments on the talk pages of editors involved in this (and other) discussions: here, here, here, here, and including removing content from other user's talk page here, and reverting changes by another user to that user's talk page here. This is a systematic behavior of pushing a POV, not trying to build consensus, attacking other editors on their talk pages instead of sticking to the discussion and claiming to be the victim of discrimination, edit warring and POV-pushing by other editors. UCaetano (talk) 12:29, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- You could not stop watching my contribution , clinging to each post ? Especially when you cling to each of my remark , treating any of my words in my defense as " pushing the POV " and " an attack on the participants ." Thanks in advance , I hope you remember that the wiki rules prohibit the harassment of user. Solaire the knight (talk) 14:06, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Solaire, I just read all this. Please listen. You are not communicating well, because you do not write clearly in English. In addition, you are fighting, instead of collaborating. If you do not change (stop fighting and start collaborating instead), we need to topic-ban you. This is because of your attitude and your behavior. If you do not agree to change, I will propose that you are topic-banned. You have 2 choices: 1) change your behavior, or 2) be banned. What do you choose? Jytdog (talk) 15:30, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Good evening :). In advance I apologize for my language level . Well, I've said that I want to at least take a wiki - holiday to adjust the language level and leave all conflicts . As you can see - my edits are quiet and relate only to music. Ideally, I would at least is now closed conflict over this article, because I am well aware that my current English is low , and the experience of the relationship in the English wiki community I do not have. I can communicate well with participants , if they do not make a monster out of me at the slightest mistakes through inexperience. In general, if you wish, I somehow chose the first option. Solaire the knight (talk) 16:18, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Some of this is just confusion as to Wikipedia processes. At User_talk:Nagle#Slander, Solander the knight says I'm attacking him for what I posted above. I'm just passing the buck. I regularly work COIN issues. Since this came up both at WP:COIN and AN/I, I'm pointing out in both places that AN/I has the issue and we can drop it at COIN. Thanks. John Nagle (talk) 19:31, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well, kind of, but it is not just confusion ("hey can you tell me why you wrote that?") it is aggression based on confusion, and this is the approach that makes this editor disruptive. confusion is not a bad thing (I am confused sometimes!)... it is the going for the throat. Your throat! Solaire the knight do you see what I mean? We all understand the language problem... that is not so much the issue. It is your aggression. It is one thing to acknowledge making mistakes and saying you are willing to change, but please just let me know that you understand that it is your aggression that is the the problem. (maybe it would help if you changed your user name to "Solaire the monk", to remind you that Wikipedia is not a battleground... that is just a joke by the way) Jytdog (talk) 21:52, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Well as far as I can see , I even now trying to provoke. Another thing, since everyone says to me, I 'd rather spend the time to rest and pulling the language level than will participate in a senseless conflict. Cheers everyone, hope I haven't been too annoying.Solaire the knight (talk) 00:36, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Well, kind of, but it is not just confusion ("hey can you tell me why you wrote that?") it is aggression based on confusion, and this is the approach that makes this editor disruptive. confusion is not a bad thing (I am confused sometimes!)... it is the going for the throat. Your throat! Solaire the knight do you see what I mean? We all understand the language problem... that is not so much the issue. It is your aggression. It is one thing to acknowledge making mistakes and saying you are willing to change, but please just let me know that you understand that it is your aggression that is the the problem. (maybe it would help if you changed your user name to "Solaire the monk", to remind you that Wikipedia is not a battleground... that is just a joke by the way) Jytdog (talk) 21:52, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Some of this is just confusion as to Wikipedia processes. At User_talk:Nagle#Slander, Solander the knight says I'm attacking him for what I posted above. I'm just passing the buck. I regularly work COIN issues. Since this came up both at WP:COIN and AN/I, I'm pointing out in both places that AN/I has the issue and we can drop it at COIN. Thanks. John Nagle (talk) 19:31, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Good evening :). In advance I apologize for my language level . Well, I've said that I want to at least take a wiki - holiday to adjust the language level and leave all conflicts . As you can see - my edits are quiet and relate only to music. Ideally, I would at least is now closed conflict over this article, because I am well aware that my current English is low , and the experience of the relationship in the English wiki community I do not have. I can communicate well with participants , if they do not make a monster out of me at the slightest mistakes through inexperience. In general, if you wish, I somehow chose the first option. Solaire the knight (talk) 16:18, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Solaire, I just read all this. Please listen. You are not communicating well, because you do not write clearly in English. In addition, you are fighting, instead of collaborating. If you do not change (stop fighting and start collaborating instead), we need to topic-ban you. This is because of your attitude and your behavior. If you do not agree to change, I will propose that you are topic-banned. You have 2 choices: 1) change your behavior, or 2) be banned. What do you choose? Jytdog (talk) 15:30, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
Current events pages
The following current events pages do not exist:
An administrator should start moving the pages, suppressing redirects, from "Month Day, Year" to "Portal:Current events/Year Month Day" for the above dates, and then copying the section "Month Day, Year (Day of the Week)" of "Portal:Current events/Month Year" to make the above pages look like other current events pages (i.e. Portal:Current events/2004 December 3 would be copied from Portal:Current events/December 2004#December 3, 2004 (Friday), etc.). Also, the following require a history merge:
- July 1, 2003 to Portal:Current events/2003 July 1
- July 2, 2003 to Portal:Current events/2003 July 2
- July 3, 2003 to Portal:Current events/2003 July 3
- July 4, 2003 to Portal:Current events/2003 July 4
- July 5, 2003 to Portal:Current events/2003 July 5
- July 6, 2003 to Portal:Current events/2003 July 6
- July 7, 2003 to Portal:Current events/2003 July 7
- July 8, 2003 to Portal:Current events/2003 July 8
- January 1, 2004 to Portal:Current events/2004 January 1
- January 2, 2004 to Portal:Current events/2004 January 2
- December 1, 2004 to Portal:Current events/2004 December 1
- December 2, 2004 to Portal:Current events/2004 December 2
Pinging the following users:
- Anomie, the owner of a bot who moved some day pages in December 2009; see Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/AnomieBOT 35.
- Fram, who moved many pages for days in 2005 in September 2007.
- Jackninja5, who created the ones that need a history merge.
- Jj137, who moved September 13, 2004 to Portal:Current events/2004 September 13.
- Lifebaka and Tavix, who turned the "Month Day, Year" articles into redirects (e.g. in Special:Diff/218547251 by Tavix or Special:Diff/212466130 by Lifebaka).
- Waldir; see User:Waldir/DateMatrix.
GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 02:20, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for pushing this forward, GeoffreyT2000. Shall we coordinate ways to distribute work, or perhaps try to get most of this done by bot? If we divide the work in small batches we can then individually "claim" parts of what needs to be done to avoid conflicts or duplicating work. What do you think? --Waldir talk 19:28, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for letting me know about this. However, I can't really do much because I've got school. Jackninja5 (talk) 10:07, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
173.174.98.84 and 32.97.110.60 edit warring in Mexican free-tailed bat
We have a problem with edit warring by two IP addresses which I believe are the same person - both IPs are located in Austin. Both are trying to add what they claim is a local name for a species to the lede of the article. The support is essentially confined to blogs. There have been four reverts in 24 hours and 42 minutes. [20], [21], [22] and [23]. This has been discussed in the article talk page, with both IPs participating, one indicating he fully intends to keep reverting no matter what.
I'm at three reverts I can't revert again, I'd appreciate it if an administrator could look at the situation. Tarl.Neustaedter (talk) 03:01, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Sent request to WP:RPP EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 03:05, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you. I suppose I should have started there. Tarl.Neustaedter (talk) 03:07, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- OK, semi-protected for a week, long enough to hammer out a consensus on the talk page that the source is indeed weak--if that's the case. IP hoppers should not get an unfair advantage. BTW, while you're at it, can you rewrite that lead and get that Bacardi and state mammal nonsense out of it? :) Drmies (talk) 03:13, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
-
-
- Will do. Thanks. Tarl.Neustaedter (talk) 03:16, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Drmies: if state desserts are seen as worth mentioning in the articles about desserts, example Whoopie pie, why are state mammals not worth mentioning in the articles about mammals? Or was it unsourced? Why do birds associated with states get special exemption, see the lede of Bald eagle (a featured article) and also Eagle#Heraldry. If I should be making a separate conduct incident regarding this aspect -- persistent POV editing preferring reptiles and birds over mammals -- please let me know. MPS1992 (talk) 19:16, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Ah, the old WP:WHOOPIEPIEEXISTS argument... That article is not a very good article. As for WP:THEARGUMENTOFTHEBALDEAGLE, the bat is not to the states of Oklahoma and Texas as the eagle is to the US, for a whole bunch of reasons--one of them being that the eagle and the US have been connected historically since times immemorial, and not so for Oklahoma. Quick, come up with a symbol for Oklahoma! ...covered wagon? chicken fried steak? a football? Also, I personally prefer mammals over birds, so that's just madness... (Finally, I don't think state-level stuff belongs in any article like this, but it certainly shouldn't be in the lead.) Drmies (talk) 20:36, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Drmies: if state desserts are seen as worth mentioning in the articles about desserts, example Whoopie pie, why are state mammals not worth mentioning in the articles about mammals? Or was it unsourced? Why do birds associated with states get special exemption, see the lede of Bald eagle (a featured article) and also Eagle#Heraldry. If I should be making a separate conduct incident regarding this aspect -- persistent POV editing preferring reptiles and birds over mammals -- please let me know. MPS1992 (talk) 19:16, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Will do. Thanks. Tarl.Neustaedter (talk) 03:16, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
-
Wildly disruptive User:Deffrman
While User:Deffrman has just been blocked for 36 hour after having made 8 reverts in about a half-hour — and despite the efforts of four other editors — he also has been editing another editor's talk-page comments (mine) to make say the opposite of what was posted. Since he could simply have deleted the comments, this blatantly deliberate misrepresentation is disruptive to a whole other level. As if that weren't enough, he's also a sock of 2001:e10:6840:21:20c:6eff:fe07:58e3 2001:e10:6840:21:20c:6eff:fe07:58e3. --Tenebrae (talk) 04:38, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- It's obvious the user isn't on Wikipedia to be constructive. I recommend an indefinite block. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 04:51, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Probably the quickest and most efficient way of dealing with this is to get a CU via SPI. Snow let's rap 04:56, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, not really--the quickest way is to weigh and compare edits, and then do what AlexiusHoratius did. Drmies (talk) 21:18, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Drmies: Well, I certainly have no objection that this user was blocked on an admin's initiative. But that block, if you are referring to Alex Bakharev's action, was for 36 hours, while JudeccaXIII was specifically suggesting an indef. And an indef is much more likely to be arrived at in a speedy fashion via a finding of socking at SPI than via a protracted behavioural discussion here, at least in the typical case. That's my only observation and I believe one which is almost universally true in instances of this sort. Snow let's rap 02:39, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- No, not really--the quickest way is to weigh and compare edits, and then do what AlexiusHoratius did. Drmies (talk) 21:18, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Given that the user has been globally locked, this is kinda dealt with. SPI or no, there is probably nothing we can do now. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 23:12, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Snow Rise, I was referring to AlexisHoratius's protectino of Sukhumi which, in a case where a hopper is abusing one single article, is the quickest solution. Voidwalker is correct with the global lock, which I noticed right after I commented here--so yeah, I think we're done. Drmies (talk) 01:03, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
Rangeblock needed to stop block evasion by Cnslrken2
A range of IPs is doing the same stuff as indeffed User:Cnslrken2. From November 2015, a few IPv6 addresses showed up to remove redlinks. Then Cnslrken2 appeared 2–3 weeks ago to remove redlinks at the same articles.[24] All of these changes were reverted because of the idea found at WP:REDLINK (we are supposed to be encouraging people to write new articles to build the encyclopedia.) After lots of edit warring to remove red links at multiple articles, reverted by many other editors, Cnslrken2 was indef blocked. After that, a lot more IPv6 addresses took up the same activity on the same quirky group of articles:
- List of deaths in rock and roll
- Michigan J. Frog
- Az Yet
- Bobby Bland
- Miss Prissy (Looney Tunes)
- List of Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies characters
- Natalie Cole
- Looney Tunes: Spotlight Collection
- Miranda Lambert
Here are the involved IPv6 addresses:
- (Blocked 3 months)
- (Blocked 1 month)
- (Blocked 31 hours)
- (Blocked 36 hours)
- (Blocked 2 weeks)
- (Blocked 31 hours)
- (Blocked 31 hours)
- (Blocked 12 hours)
- (Blocked 48 hours)
There are also some IPv4 addresses doing the same stuff, but in widely separated geolocations:
- (Blocked 31 hours)
It should be noted that some of this person's edits are constructive, especially at List of deaths in rock and roll. Pinging Ghmyrtle and Materialscientist who are both familiar with this disruption. I think we need a lengthy rangeblock on the main IPv6 group, and some kind of IPv4 rangeblocks. Binksternet (talk) 06:56, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks to Binksternet for raising the issue here. My problem is not so much with the individual edits themselves, which are often relatively minor - removing redlinks in particular - and sometimes constructive, though I first became alerted to the problem when they repeatedly and without explanation changed birth dates at Dave Bartholomew and Freddy Cannon. The problem is that the editor has never left an edit summary, and has never responded to comments or criticism - simply changing addresses at will and continuing with exactly the same behaviour, though on a growing range of articles. It's extremely irritating. Other articles where this has occurred include Esther Rolle, and a long list of Looney Tunes-related articles. Aditionally pinging KrakatoaKatie who has also tried to deal with this problem. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:00, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- PS: Adding Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:50, 10 March 2016 (UTC) -
- PPS: Example of constructive edits here - but still block evasion. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:32, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
-
- Update: Drmies just semi-protected the above-named articles for three months. Let's see how that works. Binksternet (talk) 21:59, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
User:Wikinewseditor at the Kolkata Derby article
Wikinewseditor (talk · contribs) has continued to edit disruptively at the Kolkata Derby article, removing sourced material and adding unsourced material, despite multiple warnings, and I'm not sure what should be done. The editor does not communicate. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:00, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Non-admin comment: I think they need a stern warning from several people at once, if they're not listening to one person. Their contribs that I looked at were totally redundant, adding "two consecutive days" before "7th and 8th of August, 1938"; and there were several edits like that today. They also bumped up the numbers of matches between teams. I don't know if it's severe enough for a block, but something does need to be done. Maybe a topic ban or page protection? White Arabian Filly Neigh 20:58, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Flyer22 Reborn, their most recent list of edits does not remove sourced material, though some numbers are changed. I can't do much about it, except to suggest to you that if a. there is consensus over content, numbers, sources, etc. on the talk page, and b. that editor goes against that consensus after being warned, then c. they can be blocked for disruptive editing, if it persists. In other words, to the outside world this looks kind of like a content dispute, at least until the talk page establishes that there is a consensus. Of course, you could ask for a topic ban or something like that, which is also going to take consensus. Drmies (talk) 22:42, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
-
- Drmies, I stumbled upon that article via WP:STiki. When I saw that Wikinewseditor was steadily making changes that seem disruptive, despite reverts and warnings from multiple editors, I started watching the article. For me, it's not a content dispute. My concern is that Wikinewseditor is adding a bunch of unsourced and incorrect information, and nothing is being done about it except reverting him occasionally. He has completely warped that article, and it seems others have tired of reverting him. The editor does not appear to be productive in the least. But there is nothing more that I am willing to do about this case. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:02, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
-
- There is one editor who seems to be familiar with the topic and kept challenging Wikinewseditor's text; that was Redhotgold (talk · contribs). See this edit. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:25, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Flyer22 Reborn, when you get to be admin, you'll appreciate that the things that used to look simple when you were an editor don't look so simple anymore. Editors are typically familiar with the material and know whether some change or other is disruptive or not; this is not so for admins. This is one of the reasons why we like y'all to a. be clear in edit summaries and b. use the talk page to hammer out consensuses that we can then enforce. And/or, if that editor adds unsourced info (or removes valid sourced info) and they don't explain properly, give them a templated warning, and let them add up to past level 4 so you can report them at AIV. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 16:19, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
-
-
- [FBDB] "Editors are typically familiar with the material and know whether some change or other is disruptive or not; this is not so for admins." Finally, real evidence that becoming an admin causes loss of mental capacity. I can only shudder to think what becoming an arbitrator does! EEng 22:56, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
-
- There is one editor who seems to be familiar with the topic and kept challenging Wikinewseditor's text; that was Redhotgold (talk · contribs). See this edit. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:25, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
Legal threats and disruptive edits by User:MehranRazi
Implied legal threats and disruptive edits articles involving the surname Mehrān: Mehrānids, House of Mehrān, Mehrān Razi, Shapur Mehrān, Golon Mehrān. Seems to object to the English spelling used in article names but continually restores desired version and refuses to discuss on talk pages.
Implied legal threats:
warned for legal threats [27], but made additional implied legal threats:
3RR violation:
Ping User:HistoryofIran for following: HistoryofIran has suggested that this user is a sockpuppet of a blocked account:[34] [35] [36] [37]. Presumable this is Special:Contributions/106.187.96.166 and comparing the edits and edit summaries it does appear to be likely socking. Meters (talk) 19:14, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- I blocked MehranRazi for 60 hours for disruptive editing--here, edit warring, combative editing, legal threats (borderline, maybe, but still). A smarter CU than me should probably look at the account and the IP, and also at another account, Jay-Rastgo. Drmies (talk) 20:46, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
IP-hopping troll, continued
- 86.187.130.71 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
IP-hopper back on a new IP: User:86.187.130.71. You can find the ANI report on the IP here. Eik Corell (talk) 22:17, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks. BTW, I'm asking around to see if anyone can help you with the comments/questions in that previous thread. Drmies (talk) 22:35, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
-
- Thanks to User:Drmies for a 31-hour block of the new IP. Since the 86.187.0.0/16 range is full of good-faith anon contributions, rangeblocks are tricky. We may need to do single-IP blocks for a while. Suggest that WP:AIV might be willing to do these single-IP blocks if you make a report there and link to the ANI discussion. EdJohnston (talk) 01:08, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- The way BT (and most other UK-based ISPs) allocate IP addresses makes it very difficult to stop this sort of nonsense. As EdJohnston said, the ranges are too busy to block, and unless the abuse is severe, it is unlikely that the WMF would be willing to file an abuse report with the ISP. I think that, unfortunately, RBI (via AIV) is probably the best that can be done at this time. —DoRD (talk) 17:40, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
User:86.187.172.7 is the latest IP of this IP-hopper. Eik Corell (talk) 15:50, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Ha, already blocked--they were picking on me. How dare they!
Also, two birdies whistled a tune in my left ear. One said you could ask the WMF to file an abuse report but they didn't give you much hope; I can add that the WMF seems to have a higher bar for what constitutes severe disruption. I wish they lowered that bar for people like this. The other, a giant eagle that tweeted in a distinctly midwestern accent and pulled a banner that read F L O Q U E N B E A M, suggested an abuse filter could be made. I hope that some smart person who knows abuse filters can help you out with this. Drmies (talk) 16:24, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
-
- Well I've reached out to a number of admins, still waiting to hear from some of them, and one did ask for a list of IP addresses which I did provide, so now it's just a matter of seeing what's gonna happen I think.
-
- By the way, new IP: User:86.187.174.225 Eik Corell (talk) 16:42, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Eik, I hope that you don't mind - I've combined the two threads into one to keep the discussion together. —DoRD (talk) 17:45, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
I think Drmies might be on to the best suggestion - an edit filter. Rangeblock isn't ideal and there are quite a few pages that would need protecting (better imho given the width of the rage being used now). But an abuse filter would be a decent solution. Perhaps file at WP:EFN? Samwalton9 might be able to help. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:31, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- If you can drop a request at WP:EFR with the relevant details I'll get to it soon; I've been meaning to go through all the recent requests for a while now and will likely do so within the next week or two. Sam Walton (talk) 09:37, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
Search engine submission
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A quick Googling of "search engine submission scam" finds that it is a common practice to scam unwary site owners into buying search engine submission services that are wholly unneeded. A set of IPs are persistently edit warring to keep our search engine submission article reading like an advert for such services. - SimonP (talk) 21:50, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- I've semi-protected it for two days as most of the additions were from IPs. I'll Watchlist the article (maybe others can, too) to see if this starts up again in 2 days. Liz Read! Talk! 21:57, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Legal threats
Blocked by JamesBWatson for ""Very long-term disruptive editing and block evasion, using a number of IP addresses" for 2 years and user talk page access revoked by Drmies for talk page abuse. (non-admin closure) EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:33, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Not sure if it's appropriate to block an IP from editing its own talk page, but currently-blocked long-term legal threatener User:81.101.104.252 is still posting elaborate legal threats at User talk:81.101.104.252. --McGeddon (talk) 22:37, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- A clear legal threat against Wikipedia editors in general and User:JamesBWatson in particular. That IP has never made an edit on any subject but the Tube challenge so there's no obvious collateral damage from a talk page block. Meters (talk) 23:48, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
What to do about tens of thousands of unnecessary parser functions on user talk pages?
I'll keep this short as I'm not sure I'm in the right place:
The template {{Welcome to Wikipedia}} was poorly coded for a substantial length of time (now fixed), which resulted in large quantities of unsubstituted parser functions being added to many user talk pages.
This search suggests possibly thousands of pages being affected, and those that are, will have around eleven nests of 1 * parser function acting on the result of 1 * module invocation.
If only half the total user talk pages from that search have 10 of these nests each, that's around 100,000 unnecessary wastes of server resources! This guesstimate is ballpark.
Prior to the poor coding, the template was not leaving unresolved parser functions behind, the wording of the substed result has been altered over time, and unfortunately my suggestion to add a tracking link years ago went down like a lead balloon - so it isn't trivial to find the broken ones (manually).
So, with that said, I ask:
- Should these stray and unnecessary parser functions out in the wild, be fixed?
- To do it manually would be insensible; is there a currently approved bot that can be tasked to do the work?
- Would it be acceptable to set about fixing these things by use of the API in a semi-automated fashion?
etc.
If this matter should be discussed elsewhere, please advise. fredgandt 01:41, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Although you may get an answer here you should ask the same question at the Wikipedia:Village pump (technical) Fred_Gandt. MarnetteD|Talk 02:10, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
-
- Will do MarnetteD. Cheers. fredgandt 02:24, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
User:ApprenticeFan (me) about edits in The Amazing Race
I was so embarrassed on my contributing edits in The Amazing Race (season number) articles. Me and Masem (talk · contribs) are a frequent contributors for the show franchise that we did make shortening summary articles. I made my first edit back in April 2005 in The Amazing Race 7 and became very common ever since. The big problem is I did not give any comments without any explanations of how I cleaned up sentences to meet with the standards of WP:PLOT policy.
Articles have been reported:
- The Amazing Race 18 ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- The Amazing Race 27 ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
My edits on those two articles didn't do a disruptive editing that is having a common on a good Wiki editor. At first, ESAD-Hooker (talk · contribs) became a new "Ryulong" of the Wikipedia-edit race for race/leg summary. Well, I didn't vandalize all of The Amazing Race pages since my account's creation in 2005 and this did not have previous blocks from editing. I may going to be a proper Wiki editor that meets the right standards to be understood. ApprenticeFan work 04:10, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Soooooo..... this isn't anything that needs admin intervention and should therefore be closed as such ? ....., Your edits look fine so I don't get what the problem is ? .... –Davey2010Talk 04:31, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Davey2010: These both articles were reverted by one editor, the problems are less awkward grammar, cohesion and tone. That would make sure to prove better sentences. ApprenticeFan work 04:35, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oh right sorry, So have you tried talking to the editors on the respective talkpages?, BTW you need to provide diffs of the issue aswell otherwise your complaint won't get far, Thanks, –Davey2010Talk 04:39, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah. I checked one on The Amazing Race 27 talk page and there's an analysis of these reports were made by ESAD-Hooker itself, Masem, and etc. ApprenticeFan work 07:46, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- This looks to be largely a content dispute. WP:DRN may be a better place to discuss this. Blackmane (talk) 13:31, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Back again. I did make a file at WP:DRN and this was a premature case. ApprenticeFan work 02:41, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- My observation was, on 14 February 2016, in less than 1 hour, ApprenticeFan removed over 3,000 bytes. I don't think an article can be pruned with detail in that amount of time. The results of that pruning substantiates my observation ESAD-Hooker (talk) 18:33, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- This looks to be largely a content dispute. WP:DRN may be a better place to discuss this. Blackmane (talk) 13:31, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah. I checked one on The Amazing Race 27 talk page and there's an analysis of these reports were made by ESAD-Hooker itself, Masem, and etc. ApprenticeFan work 07:46, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oh right sorry, So have you tried talking to the editors on the respective talkpages?, BTW you need to provide diffs of the issue aswell otherwise your complaint won't get far, Thanks, –Davey2010Talk 04:39, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Davey2010: These both articles were reverted by one editor, the problems are less awkward grammar, cohesion and tone. That would make sure to prove better sentences. ApprenticeFan work 04:35, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
Reverting removal of racism
- White pride ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Black pride ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- EvergreenFir (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- I9Q79oL78KiL0QTFHgyc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- James J. Lambden (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
I'm not sure why this user is doing this, but I have been trying to remove racist text from both black pride and white pride. This user is trying to keep the racist text inserted in the article in both places. It is alarming.
Please advise.
jps (talk) 04:19, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- This is a frivolous complaint. I'm involved in the dispute on White pride. jps has been warned about edit warring; when that failed and he was unable to gain consensus he brought it to RSN without alerting the other editors involved, and now he complains about the (entirely appropriate) behavior of this editor. Repeated implications others are motivated by racism should not be allowed to stand. James J. Lambden (talk) 04:34, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
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- I9Q79oL78KiL0QTFHgyc you are trying to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and treating these pages as a WP:BATTLEGROUND. You start edit warring on white pride ([38], [39], [40], [41], [42], [43], [44]), refer to edits by James J. Lambden as "white supremacist" ([45]) (which to me reads as saying the user making them is either making white supremacist edits or is one themselves, and when requested to clarify you refused [46]), meet resistance by myself and James J. Lambden, and then after discussions on the article talk page and even after my attempts at compromise ([47]) you go to WP:RSN. You didn't notify me or James J Lambden and you misrepresent that way the source is being used ([48]). It seems you did this in an attempt to win battle and went as far as to insinuate that I am promoting white pride ([49]) and call me suspicious ([50]).
- You appear on black pride ([51]), out of nowhere, but only after encountering me at white pride, and try to remove a sourced comment claiming that it doesn't refer to black pride, despite it being mentioned 9 times in the source and even in the title. During your renewed battle today, you go to black pride again to remove it claiming the source is now "terrible" adding "Awful. What's your problem?" in your edit summary ([52]), referring to me. You are casting aspersions, following me, treating these subjects as battlegrounds, and resorting to chicanery to "win". EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:39, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- One note: while the heart of this is a content dispute (typically dismissed from ANI quickly), I argue this is a behavior issue. Please review the behavior of parties here. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:41, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- I don't understand why you are reinstating racist content on Wikipedia. Just stop it, please. It is damaging the encyclopedia. jps (talk) 04:43, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Exactly what I mean by WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. I would have been happy to further discuss the use of WP:BIASED sources and quotes from WP:FRINGE views, but that's part of the content dispute. I'm going to hold off until this behavior issue is addressed. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:46, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- You keep reinserting racist wording and biased sources. I'm not sure why you are doing that. Appealing to alphabet soup doesn't change that fact. You haven't explained why you are doing that and seem to indicate that you are going to continue. A good rule of thumb is that content that is racist should not be in Wikipedia. If someone says content is racist in good faith, it's probably a good idea to remove it until it can be determined otherwise. But you seem to have other ideas. And you are short on explanations for it. jps (talk) 04:48, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Your claim that you are going to "hold off" is eerily familiar. You said that yesterday. Yet it seems that when the racist content is removed, you can't help yourself and put it back in. Why? jps (talk) 04:50, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Let me know where that "rule of thumb" is located. We cover racism and racists quite a bit, as well as their opinions. Also, accusing users of being a "famous GamerGater" is very inappropriate and amounts to a personal attack ([53]). EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:52, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- WP:HARM. There is a HUGE difference between describing racist opinions and including text that is explicitly racist (such as text that is only sourced to American Renaissance (magazine). I don't think people who are GamerGaters think of it as a personal attack. It is a question and a legitimate one given that user's edit history. WP:AGENDA driven editors are a problem. This is part of the reason we're here. jps (talk) 04:56, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Please provide the diff where I said I'd hold off. I don't recall saying that. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:53, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- [54] jps (talk) 04:56, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for the diff. And I'll point out I did keep my distance for what it was worth. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:03, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Really? Was it this revert or this revert that constituted "keeping your distance"? jps (talk) 05:06, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- 48 hours and no further discussion on the talk page by anyone? I was waiting for other opinions. But yeah I disengaged for 48 hours. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:10, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- The sad thing is that the consensus at WP:RSN seemed pretty clear, but you decided to go shit all over that, didn't you? It's like you were upset that things didn't go your way or something. Can't you see how I might find this to be problematic? jps (talk) 05:14, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Again, you misrepresented the issue. Cannot form consensus based on that. Once clarified, I pinged all the users for their opinions given the context the source was used. Had they all agreed it was still inappropriate, that would be consensus and I'd be 100% okay with that. But instead it went here and you continue your problematic behavior on RSN ([55]). EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:17, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- The sad thing is that the consensus at WP:RSN seemed pretty clear, but you decided to go shit all over that, didn't you? It's like you were upset that things didn't go your way or something. Can't you see how I might find this to be problematic? jps (talk) 05:14, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- 48 hours and no further discussion on the talk page by anyone? I was waiting for other opinions. But yeah I disengaged for 48 hours. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:10, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Really? Was it this revert or this revert that constituted "keeping your distance"? jps (talk) 05:06, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for the diff. And I'll point out I did keep my distance for what it was worth. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:03, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- [54] jps (talk) 04:56, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Please provide the diff where I said I'd hold off. I don't recall saying that. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:53, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- WP:HARM. There is a HUGE difference between describing racist opinions and including text that is explicitly racist (such as text that is only sourced to American Renaissance (magazine). I don't think people who are GamerGaters think of it as a personal attack. It is a question and a legitimate one given that user's edit history. WP:AGENDA driven editors are a problem. This is part of the reason we're here. jps (talk) 04:56, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- My darling, the issue is clearly stated and the question was answered. Just because you think you have some hidden insight into how the issue "really is" doesn't make your opinion true or gospel or whatever. Instead, on the basis of your own high opinion of how right you are and how wrong I am, you go ahead and come back from your "disengagement". Your behavior is the following: reinsert racist content on Wikipedia. Disengage. When consensus forms to remove racist content you re-engage and reinstate the content declaring that none of the people could possibly understand the issue so you'll have to explain it to all of us and, by the way, insult me while you're at it. That's the behavior I'm seeing. It's not pretty. jps (talk) 05:22, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- That is not at all an accurate representation of events. This complaint should be closed with the complainant, who seems determined to antagonize, cautioned. James J. Lambden (talk) 05:29, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- I don't see what you're adding here. It is interesting that you do not answer any of my questions but now want this discussion to be closed. Close examination of your edits show that you engage almost entirely in GamerGate related activity. I know it's fun revert Ryulong, but that's not really helping matters all that much here at this encyclopedia. In fact, I'm having a hard time finding a single contribution of yours that is beneficial to Wikipedia. If you could point out your proudest work, I'd be interested to see what it is. jps (talk) 05:38, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- That is not at all an accurate representation of events. This complaint should be closed with the complainant, who seems determined to antagonize, cautioned. James J. Lambden (talk) 05:29, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Let me know where that "rule of thumb" is located. We cover racism and racists quite a bit, as well as their opinions. Also, accusing users of being a "famous GamerGater" is very inappropriate and amounts to a personal attack ([53]). EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:52, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- I feel like this is an elaborate troll, except implicating support for white supremacy is not funny, neither is wasting volunteer time. If jps can't contribute appropriately to the topic he shouldn't be allowed to contribute. This area is subject to discretionary sanctions (American politics 2.) James J. Lambden (talk) 04:58, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- All you do is reinstate the same material. Why do you do that? Is that appropriate contributions? What is your goal here? jps (talk) 05:01, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Entirely inappropriate insinuations. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:10, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think not. The user appears to be WP:NOTHERE to help this project. jps (talk) 05:14, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Entirely inappropriate insinuations. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:10, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- All you do is reinstate the same material. Why do you do that? Is that appropriate contributions? What is your goal here? jps (talk) 05:01, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Exactly what I mean by WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. I would have been happy to further discuss the use of WP:BIASED sources and quotes from WP:FRINGE views, but that's part of the content dispute. I'm going to hold off until this behavior issue is addressed. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:46, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- I don't understand why you are reinstating racist content on Wikipedia. Just stop it, please. It is damaging the encyclopedia. jps (talk) 04:43, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- One note: while the heart of this is a content dispute (typically dismissed from ANI quickly), I argue this is a behavior issue. Please review the behavior of parties here. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:41, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
There is something quite ironic in an editor with 35 entries on their block log referring to an editor with a clean block log as "NOTHERE". John from Idegon (talk) 05:32, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Do you think that someone with 35 entries on their block log is necessarily WP:NOTHERE to help the encyclopedia? jps (talk) 05:40, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- When two editors have roughly the same number of edits and one has a clean Block log and the other one has your block log, logic dictates that one is doing more to build the encyclopedia than the other. Blocks are indicative of a lack of cooperation, an unwillingness to accept guidance and numerous other issues that are not conducive to building an encyclopedia; whereas a clean block log indicates a good Wikipedian whose Nain interest is the project, not their agenda. Btw, HARM is an essay about using people's names in an article and totally off point. An on - point link would be NOTCENSORED, which is policy. John from Idegon (talk) 06:05, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Our esteemed colleague James J. Lambden does not have the same number of edits as I. Please peruse his contributions and see if you find any that you think are redeeming. It's true, I am uncooperative at times. I do not enjoy seeing racist text reinserted at Wikipedia. Should I cooperate and allow that to occur? Some might say yes, but thankfully, God's house is a very, very big house. You are correct that WP:HARM is an essay, but you should read it closely about the principle it is describing. Not everything is always as it seems, grasshopper. jps (talk) 06:10, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- I would argue that someone with 35 entries on there block log who is still here is most likely very "HERE". AIRcorn (talk) 20:05, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- When two editors have roughly the same number of edits and one has a clean Block log and the other one has your block log, logic dictates that one is doing more to build the encyclopedia than the other. Blocks are indicative of a lack of cooperation, an unwillingness to accept guidance and numerous other issues that are not conducive to building an encyclopedia; whereas a clean block log indicates a good Wikipedian whose Nain interest is the project, not their agenda. Btw, HARM is an essay about using people's names in an article and totally off point. An on - point link would be NOTCENSORED, which is policy. John from Idegon (talk) 06:05, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- I advise a temporary topic ban for jps. Dingsuntil (talk) 07:42, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree with LauraJamieson's calling this IP an "unhelpful" troll and then hiding/masking their contribution to this discussion with a hat/hab tag. First, she hides the IP's !vote which is both rude and a clear violation of WP:IPHUMAN. Second, the IP provides a link to an old block discussion involving jps aka I9Q79oL78KiL0QTFHgyc aka ScienceAppologist which certainly is quite relevant to recognizing a pattern of behavior by this user. I urge other editors involved in this discussion to open the hat below, unhide what Laura masked, and look at the links provided by the IP and make up their own minds. Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 15:56, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator observation) (uninvolved) As has been pointed out, the root of the conflict is a content dispute which, if nothing else was up, should be closed and relegated to the appropriate talk pages. The dispute has since evolved into an edit war, accompanied by accusations of racism and sexism (GamerGate) which remain unsubstantiated. Since User:I9Q79oL78KiL0QTFHgyc(jps) asks foradvice, I will provide some
- Calling people racist or sexist, or implying it, is not helpful in any way shape or form. It's a personal attack and grounds for a block.
- Having an extensive block log is not tantamount to WP:NOTHERE per se, it may also indicate a lack of competence regarding the important issue of reaching consensus with other editors. I have the distinct impression that the latter is more of an issue than the former.
- If you are going to write about unsavory subjects like any kind of supremacism, expect unsavory sources. If you want to describe opinions held by white supremacists, white supremacist literature is quite reliable, even though the claims made are not. If I want to write about views held by nazis, Der Sturmer is a pretty good source, as is Mein Kampf (see Rudolf Oldens Hitler der Eroberer for an example of how it's done). If you want to describe the actual history of the Turd Reich, they most definitely are not. A book on the NSDAP] which does not quote or reference the filth they spewed, is not worth the paper it's written on
- That was the issue, here. A white supremacist was quoted to describe views held by white supremacists.
- So, the advice I will provide is: remember that we are here trying to compile an encyclopedia and do not treat the project as a WP:SOAPBOX or a WP:BATTLEGROUND. Racism and racists exist and it is the goal of the project to accurately and neutrally describe the phenomenon. If you cannot distinguish between a description given and an opinion held, then I would suggest there's a WP:CIR issue, here. HTH, HAND. Kleuske (talk) 16:08, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Block for User:jps agreed. A period of time away from the project might perhaps cool his crusading ardour. 08:42, 11 March 2016 (UTC)08:42, 11 March 2016 (UTC)— 151.230.65.134 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
-
- Likewise, I WP:AGF and do not use contemptuous language, such as addressing editors as 'darling' or 'grasshopper.' It is also noteworthy that instead of attempting to defend his position, he resorts to personal attacks. This, I suggest, says much about his attitude towards WP: that it is a battleground for him to 'win' on. And for an astromoner, your maths is rather lacking. In actuality, 85.7% of my edits (inclusive of this one and one that changed a single byte) have been 'outside this topic.' But we thank you for gifting the community yet another example of your attitude
11:39, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Likewise, I WP:AGF and do not use contemptuous language, such as addressing editors as 'darling' or 'grasshopper.' It is also noteworthy that instead of attempting to defend his position, he resorts to personal attacks. This, I suggest, says much about his attitude towards WP: that it is a battleground for him to 'win' on. And for an astromoner, your maths is rather lacking. In actuality, 85.7% of my edits (inclusive of this one and one that changed a single byte) have been 'outside this topic.' But we thank you for gifting the community yet another example of your attitude
-
- How long have you been a member of the community? What made you decide to haunt this page? And you've got some delightful trolling attacks on our projects, I see. We'll let others decide what to do with you. WP:DFTT. jps (talk) 12:24, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- I think this sums you up better than I could... 12:30, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- I am undoing this hatting--sorry, LauraJamieson, but I do not see evidence of trolling. As for the matter at hand, jps is of course a well-known troll according to some, and a well-known pain in the butt to others, and a well-known editor to yet others. As it happens, their comments about GamerGaters and what not are completely unacceptable and, jps, I will be more than happy to block you for it; it would be an honor for me, since I'm the only admin who hasn't blocked you yet.
What, you were asking me for my opinion? I have one, of course: jps is absolutely correct in their Black pride edit: that's a terrible source, and it's a terrible idea to use one single article from one bad source about one particular incident to tar this topic. They were also wrong in their White pride edit--it's a terrible idea to not have that content, properly formatted and contextualized. Joshua, have a great day--stay out of trouble. Drmies (talk) 19:51, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
Massive reverting of edits plus WP:OWN
Apologies if this is in the wrong place, while I was once a frequent editor, I tend not to edit much now so my knowledge of process is a little rusty and also my use of wikimark-up. A few years ago, there was length discussion on List of unlawfully killed transgender people about the nature of that list (and it went to AFD a couple of times) - the consensus was that people killed *because* there were transgendered makes a specific list, People killed who *happen* to be transgendered is a indiscriminate list in the same way List of unlawfully killed red headed people. The page was cleaned up on that basis. Over time, people have been added to it who have committed suicide, where there is known killer or motive or were killed because they were driving a car that it was thought was attacking a military base. I went through over the last couple of days, improved some aspects, made suggestions for where separate articles should be made and removed anyone who doesn't fit. Rab_V doesn't engage with any specific edits, he just block reverts all of them so no improvements can be made. There is an existing consensus on the talkpage that was hammered out after it went to two AFDs so it's frankly frustrating that one edit can stop clean-up that would prevent it going to a 3rd. --Cameron Scott (talk) 12:19, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
(I've notified them of this discussion as required). --Cameron Scott (talk) 12:20, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- The scope of the article seems to have been changed since Cameron Scott edited the article. I did not initiate this change, but the current version of the scope has been up for years. This newer scope, including those killed irrespective of cause, has been discussed several times over a couple years on the talk page by multiple users without any consensus forming against it. This version of the scope was also in place during the most recent AFD, where the mass consensus was keep and several editors saying the article was clearly notable. You can check the version from the most recent AFD nomination to see Cameron is incorrect in stating the version he prefers went through the second, most recent AFD. In all conversations within the last couple years, there has not been a consensus that the scope should be limited to people killed because there are transgender. I am merely reverting edits since a single editor is changing the entire scope without an attempt to form a consensus among editors of the article on the talk page. In fact, not a single editor responded to their post on the talk page before they changed the scope of the article. I have commented to Cameron on the talk page that I agree with some of the changes they make, but those changes were made after they had made numerous, unilateral changes to the article's scope and I'd prefer we work from a previous, stable version of the page first. Rab V (talk) 12:48, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
Distributive editor sock pupertry investigation without progress , disruptive edits and 3RR ignorance continue.
YuHuw like his suspected predecessor Kaz staring from 8 January 2016 trying and claiming to connection between Khereid tribe and Russian Karaites.The style is the same multiple edits on several pages,ignoring request on other users to revert to concensus version. 3RR rules are violated constantly,arguments are ignored. The usual his reverts explanation is : "User:Ancientsteppe puppet POV pushing" without any additional argument.Sometimes he also distorts original meaning of the RS or used non RS for his claim.
E.g here he removed Kheraid consensus page name claiming that the persian name of the tribe is 'Karaites' while most of the sources use name Kheraid or Keraites.He also removed the consensus map of Kheraide in spite of objection of other editors. As you can see below also 3RR is totally violated:
Here the similar on the Qaraylar page where he claims without any RS non consensus meanings of the word ignoring any arguments of other editors without any meaningful explanation. 1)Here and
2)here and
3)here and
4)here and
Above are only several examples. The same phenomena may be find almost on every page that he has edited.
While Sockpuppet his investigations has no progress in spite of his new anonymous IP edits the reasons of Kaz's block are still relevant also for this "new" editor. You are invited to look at additional examples here Please consider. Неполканов (talk) 15:06, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- I don't know what this is all about, but from the message YuHuw left on my talk page, I don't have the impression his attitude isn't constructive. I'm not sure the same can be said of Неполканов. Notifying Bkonrad who also seems to have had dealings with him. --Midas02 (talk) 19:55, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- I gave up on this as the issues seemed rather obscure and far beyond my ability to verify. My only involvement was in terms of the disambiguation page content, which reflects article content (i.e., sources and references go on the article, not in the dab page and disputes about whether an article should describe a particular term should be addressed at the relevant article talk page). older ≠ wiser 20:50, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have added some RS on Midas02 page and also on Russian Karaites page trying to approve that the YuHuw edits actually part of his disruptive agenda. As you can see above his 3RR violation related not only to Неполканов edits but to 4 other editors reverts of his non consensual edits. Неполканов (talk) 22:57, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- I gave up on this as the issues seemed rather obscure and far beyond my ability to verify. My only involvement was in terms of the disambiguation page content, which reflects article content (i.e., sources and references go on the article, not in the dab page and disputes about whether an article should describe a particular term should be addressed at the relevant article talk page). older ≠ wiser 20:50, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
Hello, much of what I am about to write has already been covered here [56] and here [57]. It is a bit long but that is what happens when things are allowed to pile up over time.
Неполканов (i.e. NePolkanov) has opened this case here in response to the "call to arms" on the mastermind's page here [58] described by User:Bbb23 as "blatant canvassing"[59].
NePolkanov is pushing the POV propagated by blocked puppets of blocked User:Ancientsteppe as was pointed out to me by User:Dbachmann here [60]. Specifically User:Ancientsteppe and his puppets tried to pass off the modern Mongolian family name, "Khereid", as the "correct" name for the Keraites and this mistake is now ubiquitous across all sorts of Wikipedia mirror-sites having been left unchecked for years despite being unheard of before User:Ancientsteppe and his puppets started spreading that idea throughout Wikipedia -especially in images created by commons wikipedia editor User:Khiruge which do not get as much critical attention as text edits.
I came to be harassed incessantly by his close friends (who take breaks from wikipedia and come back together at the same time) as a result of my joining in to reverse the spread of User:Ancientsteppe's unique ideas. He has revealed more of his POV bias (by explaining that Nepolkanov means not Polaknov) to those of us who have become informed about the subject areas which he has successfully managed to monopolize since he appeared on Wikipedia to help his team's mastermind -see his edit history below and you get the idea very clearly.
So anyway, they called me a puppet of "Kaz" [61] and eventually opened a case for me where you can see in the edit history [62] other now blocked puppets of blocked User:I_B_Wright have also been very active in the past [63]. It seems maybe puppet investigations attract puppets.
Nepolkanov's method as you can see from his very short entire edit history over the past few years here (solely dedicated to "Kaz" issues) is to call anyone who touches his projects in a way he doesn't like a puppet of User:Kaz who I have learned a substantial amount about since they first called me Kaz in early January this year.
Nepolkanov has also inferred that user to be a pedophile providing enough personal details about him on the investigation page over time that any one of us can go and kick the doors of his home in if we feel so inclined. In fact that inference was first posted on the Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Kaz page while (also ironically pointed out by Nepolkanov's team) the person he is identified with was campaigning for general elections in the UK last year. Supposedly he must have scheduled time to fly to Mallorca just to upset Nepolkanov at the same time. Not too difficult if we believe Nepolkanov that Kaz is rich enough to control the internet [64][65]. But hold your horses because he also said not so long ago that Kaz is not really a pedophile [66] although I can find no evidence of the article on the web except mirror-site copies of what Nepolkanov wrote of course because the Puppetmaster is so rich that he controls the internet. Although it should probably be born in mind that Nepolkanov does also have a history of inventing URLs and evidence outside of WP which doesn't exist when you click on them (try them on the Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Kaz page and for example here [67] conveniently archived as is so commonly done not always by bots to hide evidence concerning that team's work a topic worthy of discussion in its own right later perhaps).
Also let's not forget that he repeatedly says that I am Kaz so that for the past few months when he says Kaz anywhere he means me which baring the previous paragraph in mind is more than highly offensive. Apparently, Kaz's personal vast wealth is also how Nepolkanov explains me away as another manifestation of the Phantom menace, Kaz, too since apparently he flies from the UK to wherever is necessary in his private jet to hide his true location (since use of proxies was apparently ruled out), just to annoy Nepolkanov. Holding that thought in mind, despite what he believes is "my" vast personal wealth and power he also says that I am a ridiculous autistic his words not mine which not that I have anything against autistic people, is clearly meant by his use of "ridiculous" as nothing but another personal attack.
Alternatively sometimes Nepolkanov says Kaz is Israeli and other times not. So I suppose he can be (just like the use of RS as you will soon see below) anything he wants him to be as and when it suits his purpose. In fact the puppet allegation he presented against me is overflowing with such irreconcilable contradictions. Perhaps he will soon say that either Kaz or me also has supernatural powers. Honestly if it wasn't so unhinged and if not for the fact that the user really believes it, it would almost be hilarious. Perhaps some people are just so bored that trolling Wikipedia has become the spice of life for them.
As for his comment about misusing sources, let's look closely at an example. I brought a source to the Karaim language page which he removed as what he calls "outdated RS fakes" or "lies" in talk pages and numerous edit summaries [68]. Apparently it was not about Crimean Karaites although his team clearly indicated that they believe Russian Karaites are Crimean Karaites [69]. Then he explained to me that Russian Karaites are in fact Subbotniks on the Talk:Keraites page and now here he uses the same source which I originally provided. So first he said it was not RS and now he says it is. While originally he was right there is no reference specifying to Crimean Karaites were meant in that source (especially since the Russian Karaites lived in Astrakhan where Tatar languages have long been used alongside Russian) he now says again that those same Russian Karaites are indeed Crimean Karaites (as it suits him). Yes, pretty weird. Yet he says I am the one who fakes evidence from sources? Hmmm. Well he also calls Douglas Morton Dunlop an outdated RS fake when it suits him too so... :/
He also accused me of building up a content fork at Talk:Karait although it was not, he himself has created at least two content forks recently for example here [70] and here [71] and a few months ago here [72] and here [73].
If one wants to make a project of it you can find too many cases of disruptive editing by Nepolkanov and his team but be aware that you could spend a very long time on it. I did start when I was first accused of being Kaz, but after a few days I simply found it nauseatingly boring. Anyone who spends a little time reading through his edit history and interactions with his team mates and those they accused of being Kaz will find it enough to realize they are not worth time bothering with as WP:DENY makes very clear. That's why I don't spend time dealing with all the problems they insert into all their articles all the time now. The truth about the subject [74] is in the published books available in the libraries and often online, which experienced editor User:Dbachmann taught me the value of using a translator to work through slowly but surely. These trolls may be able to dominate content on a few articles in the fields that interest them here for a short time, but in the end their agendas do not have any impact in the academic world. Truth can be suppressed in one place or another for a time but in the end it will always be found out. YuHuw (talk) 15:00, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
March 2016 User:Springee canvassing
User reported: Springee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Notified user: William_M._Connolley at User_talk:William_M._Connolley notifying him of dispute at article Ford Pinto
Since you have had involvement with HughD, you should see how many edits he added to the Ford Pinto article. 200 in the 5 days before it was locked! Seriously, if you are brave you should give it a look.
diff: 21:01 10 March 2016
Spamming; notification of a user "with no significant connection to the topic at hand." Campaigning; non-neutral wording of notice. Vote stacking; active content discussions at article talk. Previous interaction with the targeted editor is not among the listed examples of appropriate reasons for notification to a user talk page at WP:APPNOTE.
Springee recent previous report for canvassing 2 December 2015: WP:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive907#User_Springee_Canvassing
Thank you. Hugh (talk) 19:22, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Not canvasing. No suggestion or request to edit the page. I'm simply blow away by HughD's ability to make 255 edits to a page since March 2nd including 3 days when the topic was locked! Springee (talk) 19:29, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
Competence and the meaning of the word "plurality"
User was indefinitely blocked by Swarm for "Patently disruptive and tendentious editing; WP:NOTHERE; see ANI report". (non-admin closure) EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 00:56, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User New Speech Killer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) is a single-purpose editor who takes the view that it is in some way improper to refer to the conventional method of electing e.g. members of the US House of Representatives using the word "plurality" because the word "plurality" has other meanings. This has led to a lot of repetitive comments on various talk pages, including weird insinutations about other users' political beliefs, and the same few edits being made repeatedly. A number of other editors have tried to engage New Speech Killer, but the effect is nil. I have run out of patience for this, so here I am. Diffs follow:
- Repetitive, unsourced, weird edits to Plurality voting system ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs):
- Ditto, to Template:Electoral systems ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs):
- The weird talk-page business, including repeatedly restoring a comment to a user's talk-page against that user's request:
I will notify the relevant users in short order. --JBL (talk) 21:04, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Clear pov pusher here to "right great wrongs". The user name alone suggests disruption. Indef seems appropriate. Might consider going to WP:RPP if it keeps up. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:12, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Has done similar actions at Plurality (voting). See:
- Thanks for looking into this. User:HopsonRoad 21:44, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- I can say from reviewing the {{help me}} request on this issue, I was struck by the following: In this message (just over a month ago), New Speech Killer said Consensus is not a good think, the good thinks is objectivity and honesty. I believe you know that the best consensus is between mafia like members. This apparent disregard for consensus-building in the article-building process has been followed in the month since with reverts rather than discussion. My interpretation is that the user wants the article to be what they feel is right, in spite of consensus. I gave the user an edit warring warning from the thought that it would be a last warning of sorts before an indef or maybe even a topic ban would be sought, but in reviewing this post, I wouldn't have a problem with action being taken now based on the evidence. --Nick—Contact/Contribs 22:40, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
- Wow. In my view, this is a disruptive and tendentious SPA who has taken part in Edit warring, personal attacks, rejection of consensus, attempting to right great wrongs, refusal to listen to what others are saying, refusal to edit in accordance with "verifiability not truth", refusing to drop the stick, blatantly using Wikipedia as a soapbox for their personal views, and refusing to collaborate in a constructive manner. Given the impressive breadth and severity of their transgressions, I think the only preventative recourse here is to block indefinitely; they quite simply need to become familiar with, and agree to abide by our content and behavioral policies before being allowed to edit again, period. Executing this right now. Swarm ♠ 00:07, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
File upload issues
Ipswahabpora (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) has uploaded a variety of images from a variety of sources, claiming all of them under a {{cc-by-sa-3.0}} license, often times when this is patently false. Some of these images might be self work, but most appear to be photos of copyrighted images. Many of the uploads were tagged for deletion, some as WP:F9, generating talk page notifications with links to relevant policies about image use and copyright and containing statements that persistent copyright violators will be blocked. Recognizing that the image use policy is one of the more complicated aspects of Wikipedia, I left the user a modified {{uw-ics3}} template with an invitation to contact me or WP:MCQ before uploading any more files to make sure they have a firm grasp on what is allowed and what is not. The user did not seek any help, and uploaded File:Mashrab1.jpg, which appears to be a photograph of a copyrighted publication, again claiming cc-by-sa-3.0 with clearly no evidence to support it. I then followed that up with a {{uw-ics4}} final warning. The user has since uploaded 6 more photos without seeking any advice, 1 of which is clearly a copyvio and others which lacked complete source info and are suspicious.
I think this is past the point where it can be explained away by image uploading being complicated. The user's non-responsiveness leads me to request administrator action in the form of a block to prevent further resources being used to investigate these suspicious uploads, until the user is willing to work with others to understand policy. Cheers, Nick—Contact/Contribs 06:06, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- User notified --Nick—Contact/Contribs 06:07, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- I looked at the contribution, and I am afraid that I do not see a slightest evidence that the user has understanding of Wikipedia policies, definitely not about notability and definitely not about uploading files.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:15, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Totally agree with the above. The user might be acting in good faith, but I do not see any responsiveness or understanding of Wikipedia policies . I have tagged several of the user's articles (about non notable topics) for speedy deletion and most have been deleted. However, the user simply recreates the articles. (for example this one Amin Qasimi) --Lemongirl942 (talk) 05:25, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- Given the comments above, can we perhaps take some action on this? The user has uploaded two more files which are both likely copyvios, File:Tohfat-ul-Awam.jpg & File:Aminqasimi.jpg, after the filing of this ANI report, still without reaching out and seeking help to better understand policy. If the ANI notice wasn't enough to get their attention, I feel a block is the only recourse. The uploads and article creations may be in good faith, but they certainly show a WP:CIR problem. --Nick—Contact/Contribs 07:25, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
Request for Community Input concerning a Series of Potentially Unfortunate Edits and their Contributors
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- Former section header: Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Edits. EEng
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Pinging the following users to this discussion:
@WikiConqueror:, @Loriendrew:, @CactusWriter:, @NawlinWiki:, @Randykitty: @Grandma.ricky: @Ginger1774:
A few days ago I was doing pass through the csd articles with an eye on those that were potentially contested. In that capacity I reviewed the article Lisa Christine Holmberg. (note the period), which was alleged to be csd eligible on G4 grounds (recreation of an article deleted via a deletion discussion). Since I could not find the article's afd I had to search to locate the original article, and discovered that the reason the article had been created with a period was in a deliberate attempt to circumvent the page creation protection at the article's original name Lisa Christine Holmberg. In the course of my review of the article to determine the validity of the csd tag I found the afd, but learned that this article has an apparent fan train behind it. That fan train appears to be pushing an agenda to keep the article on Wikipedia despite having been repeatedly informed that there is currently no place for the actress on this site at present. Over the last several days I have observed the account behind the article and have come to the conclusion that the person pushing to have this article on Wikipedia may have reached the point of disruptive editing, and as such I would like the community and the admin corps take a closer look and decide if any action on this matter is warranted.
Lisa Christine Holmberg is apparently an actress wannabe whose got an apparently small but loyal fan base. She' got no awards, no major casting roles, no schooling history (she was home schooled), and as such, no shelter under any criteria set forth under WP:NOTABILITY for the article remain on site. Even the more specific acting guidelines do not offer any sanctuary for the article to remain. The initial attempt to create this page was shot down under G12 copyright violation as Ginger1774 (talk · contribs) had apparently taken the article from imbd, a source whose use on Wikipedia is questionable based on the manner in which it is employed to begin with. After being deleted by CactusWriter (talk · contribs) for copyright infringement the article was recreated about an hour later by Ginger1774 very near the original version. This recreated version was deleted about four hours later by NawlinWiki (talk · contribs). This time only about two hours passed before Ginger1774 recreated the article for a third time. As with the first two csd-based deletions, this version was nearly identically to the first two csd-deleted versions. Again the article was tagged for speedy deletion, but this time I new account going by the name Grandma.ricky (talk · contribs) removed the csd tag (before after) in what looks very much like an orchestrated attempt to keep the article on site. On 30 October 2014, the article was proposed for deletion by Amortias (talk · contribs). At the same time, Amortias sensed something amiss about the article, and posted an ANI notice about a possible sock or meat team working the article. At the time, this was judge to be a non issue, and the post was closed without any action taken. Right about this time Ginger1774 ceased editing, and Grandma.ricky took over the primary editing for the account. A long string of edits were then made by Grandma.ricky up to the article, which at that time was undergoing an afd which was closed as delete on 7 November 2014. A little more than two hours after the afd deletion of this article, Grandma.ricky recreated the article (again), which resulted in a csd tag about 30 minutes later. After this final deletion, CactusWriter creation-protected the article. No further activity occurred with the article until February of this year, when WikiConqueror (talk · contribs) recreated the article at Lisa Christine Holmberg. (note the period) in what looks very much like a deliberate attempt to circumvent the article's creation protection. After a week on site Reddogsix (talk · contribs) tagged the article speedy deletion, resulting in my having moved the article to its actual name and then deleting it once the afd background information was confirmed.
On its own this could be taken as over-zealousness towards the creation of an article, but it goes deeper than that. The three primary accounts that have worked on this article have minor contributions outside the article specifically, but ALL of their edits seem to be focus almost exclusively on Lisa. The Grandma.ricky account made all edits to the Lisa account, as such there is no evidence to show definitively that the this account had brown-nosed others to keep Lisa on site, however after Grandma.ricky's account ceased editing and Ginger1774 started editing that changed. Ginger1774 added Lisa to the list of people from Elgin, Illinois and created a page for The Hemmens Cultural Center (also in Elgin Illinois), where Lisa allegedly had minor vocal performance roles. Edits were also made to the article we have on Elgin, Illionis to link the predominance center in what I am guessing was a conscience effort to get more page views for the actress. The account also edited the article Elgin Community College, however this appears to be the only case where I can not discern a conscience attempt to promote Lisa.
That brings us to the currently active account WikiConqueror (talk · contribs). WikiConqueror's edits have continued to edit for both lisa in particular and for Elgin, Illios generally. These include creating the article Elgin Children's Chorus which Lisa sang in at age 7, Jenne Lennon (apprently someone else from Elgin, Illinois), attempting to add a link to the draft of Lisa int he article name space at List of people from Elgin Illinois, creating the West Suburban Home School Band article which Lisa apparently was a part of, creating the holiday showcase article which Lisa acted in, The Planets Gala Concert with Lenard Nimoy which Lisa participated in, re-adding a link to the recreated Lisa article in our List of People for Elgin Illinois article, creating the page The Neighborhood Watch which Lisa had a role in, creating The Undercover Squad which Lisa had a role in, creating the page A Concert of Remembrance which Lisa had a role in, and creating the Metropolis Performing Arts Cetner where Lisa preformed. On top of that the user has been working religiously on Draft:Lisa Christine Holmberg despite the fact that the article has been repeatedly declined for publication ([91] [92] [93] [94] [95]). In each case the user has been soliciting feedback for the reason for the draft having been declined, however I can not say for sure if this is just the newness of the user or if it is a deliberate attempt be problematic.
Although as I have shown above WikiConqueror (talk · contribs) has been working the Lisa Christine Holmberg article angle hard, it is also a fact that the user has had some useful contributions away from Lisa as a general topic. I think the account could be useful in the long run, but I take the repeated work on Lisa Christine Holmberg on the associated articles for her life's history as red flag, particularly in light of the early attempts by Ginger1774 and Grandma.ricky to protect the article. I am asking for community feedback here on whether or not action should be taken on this matter. Speaking for myself, I would entertain the idea of a topic ban for the WikiConqueror account prohibiting the account from editing any articles on or related to Lisa Christine Holmberg to see if that helps the situation any, but that's me. TomStar81 (Talk) 08:12, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Hey, TomStar81. I made the new Lisa Christine Holmberg page, simply because I genuinely thought that the actor met Wikipedia notability. Other users had told me so. But apparently that's very subjective. As you can see, I've taken your advice and stopped working on that article for now. I'm keeping the draft going while I find more information and wait for the subject to become more notable. I do hope to eventually make the article since I've done so much research at this point, but if I need to wait, I understand and will. Notice I didn't recreate it. I know that you're just trying to do what's best for Wikipedia, and I respect that. I did make some articles that were about projects Lisa had worked on, but that's because I'm a fan. Is that a problem? Fans edit all the time on Wikipedia, and they're the ones that are motivated to do the necessary research on the topic. I don't want any trouble, and I'm not making biased articles. I always love it when other users work on my draft, and I encourage that. It helps me learn the encyclopedia and helps the articles be more well rounded. I only submitted the draft multiple times because I wanted feedback from admins in my editing process. I'm a relatively new user (since 2014) and am still learning the ropes. I don't have much draft experience, and you have to start somewhere. I feel like some of the other users that I've interacted with have been over zealous to my article just because of its rough start with the other users. It's not right to judge me based on their behavior. I really am trying hard to make good articles and "useful contributions" as you said. Please don't bully me any more than I already have been by others. I'm just trying to do my best like all of you are. WikiConqueror (talk) 08:32, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- All good points, all correct as well, and ironically from an admin perspective that is where the problem is. Ordinarily this could be construed as disruptive editing, except that you account doesn't appear to have been created for a single purpose - you've got edits outside of the subject area, some a little sloppy, but I've been guilty of contributions at or below those levels (and in fairness standards here change all the time). This reminds me of my fit back in 06 or so when I was on the receiving end of a mass deletion campaign, and I recall being irate and angry and out to prove a point and all those other things you're not suppose to be anchored in on Wikipedia. Some years later I brought myself in line and look at my now: admin, coordinator, etc. That's why I am here. I have no idea what do with this whole thing. I don;t even know if what I've dug up is a thing. A block under these circumstances would be excessive, and frankly unfair. Lisa's non notable at the moment, and I keep see her appear again and again. I'm looking to others here to gain a bigger picture of what we should or shouldn't do. This is one of the big reasons I hate csd - I get involved and my damned investigative nature works against me (or in some cases for me, but that's more the exception than the rule). Hell I may be guilty of low level harassment here, but since I don't know what to do I need input, and thats what brings us here. For now I take I wait and see, depending on what the community decides here we'll proceed according to the will on consensus. TomStar81 (Talk) 09:30, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for the notification, TomStar81 - While notability is somewhat subjective, there are instances, this being the case where it is readily apparent that the subject does not meet notability criteria. WC does bring up good points in their response above, but I question their intentions. When I got the ANI notice on my talk page, I looked here to see a discussion begun by TomStar81; seeing this one I clicked on the draft, and looking at it wondered: "WTF? Why am I being notified?" But something about the article rang a bell, and looking at the history I noticed I had declined the draft several days ago. However, WC has seen fit to remove the declination notice, along with the comments. On further inspection, they have removed all the prior declination boxes, and all reviewers' comments as well. This makes it appear that they are not very amenable to listening to reviewers' comments. While some of the issues can be attributed to a lack of Wiki experience, when an editor makes willful edits to deceive other editors, that points to a behavioral issue in their editing. Especially after the user has been warned (albeit in a different instance) of the inappropriate removal of tags. All that being said (and btw, thanks TomStar for the wonderful recap above - despite its length, it is actually concise when taking into account all that has happened), I agree that a block is too much at this point. This warning should suffice, but if the editor continues what might be construed as tendatious and deceitful behavior, a block might then be in order. I would also suggest that the editor refrain from deleting any notices on their talk page, as well as on articles they are working on. Onel5969 TT me 15:59, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- All good points, all correct as well, and ironically from an admin perspective that is where the problem is. Ordinarily this could be construed as disruptive editing, except that you account doesn't appear to have been created for a single purpose - you've got edits outside of the subject area, some a little sloppy, but I've been guilty of contributions at or below those levels (and in fairness standards here change all the time). This reminds me of my fit back in 06 or so when I was on the receiving end of a mass deletion campaign, and I recall being irate and angry and out to prove a point and all those other things you're not suppose to be anchored in on Wikipedia. Some years later I brought myself in line and look at my now: admin, coordinator, etc. That's why I am here. I have no idea what do with this whole thing. I don;t even know if what I've dug up is a thing. A block under these circumstances would be excessive, and frankly unfair. Lisa's non notable at the moment, and I keep see her appear again and again. I'm looking to others here to gain a bigger picture of what we should or shouldn't do. This is one of the big reasons I hate csd - I get involved and my damned investigative nature works against me (or in some cases for me, but that's more the exception than the rule). Hell I may be guilty of low level harassment here, but since I don't know what to do I need input, and thats what brings us here. For now I take I wait and see, depending on what the community decides here we'll proceed according to the will on consensus. TomStar81 (Talk) 09:30, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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- (Responding to the ping) I discussed some of this recently with WikiConqueror who approached me at my talk page for help with Draft:Lisa_Christine_Holmberg. Our conversation can be read at User talk:CactusWriter#Lisa Christine Holmberg page. Briefly, I informed them that the article was still a promotional piece on a non-notable teenage actress, that my assessment agreed with several editors who had already reviewed and declined it, and that WikiConqueror would be better off leaving it until Holmberg was truly notable, and WikiConqueror should move on to more constructive areas of editing Wikipedia. I do agree there are problems here with COI and agenda-driven editing. (And I've been watchful of a number of images they've uploaded to Commons with copyright issues -- including some fan pics which are cropped to edit out the fan who I would suspect is Holmberg.) If a problem with SPI exists, a case should be filed. However, I don't think we've reached the stage for ANI intervention. I think this can still be handled by direct interaction with WikiConqueror. — CactusWriter (talk) 16:36, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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- (responding to ANI notice) Seconded -- that's exactly what I said to WikiConqueror before -- one needs to realise that this is not possible right now, and should walk away. Nevertheless, it's see you cooperating with us, WC, and there's absolutely no judgement on you here. The issue is not you but the article in question, it's important that those two things are differentiated. My name isnotdave (talk/contribs) 16:53, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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IP here to troll gay sex subjects
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- 174.1.101.144 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) is here for the sole purpose of denigrating gay sex.
A few diffs:
I warned them to stop it here. They argued. I told them to knock it off.
Today they were right back at it: dif.
This user is WP:NOTHERE and only here to troll. Please indef. Jytdog (talk) 09:03, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- We don't indef block IPs, and this one is dynamic. But the same person seems to have been on this IP for at least a few days, so I've gone for a one-week block. Please feel free to leave me a note if they start up again once the block expires and I'll impose a longer block. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:35, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Just an additional comment: It's perfectly acceptable to debate the use of images in sex-related articles and that's not why I have blocked, but this editor went beyond that into outright homophobia and personal attacks on BLP subjects. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:51, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
WP:Threats
One of the strangest groups of threats I've ever encountered. Here. About editing Wikipedia articles on Singapore politicians. I've done nothing about this, as I don't know how to react. But Wikipedia needs a heads up. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 11:52, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- This has been here before, at the time. See this and this. I believe there's been no new developments. -- zzuuzz (talk) 12:02, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for responding and thanks for the insight. Damn socks. Glad to see you are on top of it. Cheers! 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:53, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
User:Adamstraw99 is making personal attacks,and user space harassment
Adamstraw99 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
I am have found some irregularity in the article "Astra" [96] and tried editing it,and raise some points over the same in the talkpage of Adamstraw99 ,who had reverted my edit.I had refrained from edit-warring or making personal attacks,so I found his reply on my talkpage very disturbing and offending,and I quote,"rant like an emotional fool on my talk page".This makes any civil discussion on the topic untenable.Please check his reply "perhaps you don't know what vandalism is that's why you are getting so many warnings and blocks for your activities here. Also I am not posting any "general view". I neither contribute much to this article Astra (weapon) nor have I added anything in this particular section. Fact of the matter is that you jumped in from somewhere and deleted some text from the article and replaced with your own version riding on some clearly biased, POV, and above all not notable, non reliable sources. that's where I had to intervene.. I Request you to kindly not rant like an emotional fool on my talk page and try to understand what exactly happened because I never added any personal or general view at first and only reverted your acts when you replaced certain text with fake sources.. that's it..Adamstraw99 (talk) 21:28, 10 March 2016 (UTC) I think this his reply doesn't comply with wikipedia policies-No Personal Attack and User Space Harassment. I request the administrators to take appropriate action against this user-warning,block or otherwise as they see fit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ankisur2 (talk • contribs) 14:47, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment (Non-administrator observation) The editor User talk:Ankisur2 has been WP:FORUMSHOPPING; cf. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Astra-the personal weapons of the hindu holy trinity and their purview. I suggest this is merely a content dispute which has no place here (or, indeed, probably the NPOV too). Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 16:38, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
Disruptive Editing by SchroCat and Tim riley
This report relates to user editors SchroCat and Tim riley. It refers to the wiki article John Gielgud. This article seems to have been created by or significantly fleshed out by two editors, SchroCat and Tim riley.
On the 2nd March, I corrected a minor grammatical and stylistic solecism in the text. The change I made is this: the original text read:
"After Hillside, Lewis had won a scholarship to Eton, and Val had done likewise to Rugby, but John, lacking their academic achievement, did not follow them.[10]"
This sentence has three subordinate clauses in one and a quarter lines; contains a category error (i.e. the use of 'academic achievement' when 'academic prowess' or 'academic talent' is clearly meant); and what grammarians call a 'denied conclusion' (i.e. it says 'John... did not follow them' thus implying the question 'Follow them where?' To Rugby? Or to Eton? Or to any public school?).
I changed the sentence to:
"After Hillside, Lewis had won a scholarship to Eton, as Val had done likewise to Rugby, but John, lacking their academic achievement, did not follow them."
By the 6th of March, the change was reverted by Tim riley. I reverted it again (the 3rd edit), and then completely rewrote the lineSchroCat - this was then reverted by SchroCat (which I believe breaks the WP:3RR convention. I opened up a topic in the talk page providing grammatical and stylistic reasons for my changes and asking them not to revert the edit. I did, I admit, ask them not to revert correct changes simply out of loyalty to their own edits.
On the talk page, I was abused by both SchroCat and Tim riley - with SchroCat suggesting, amongst other things, that I was a non-native English speaker who should defer to his own own native English-speaking status. A rude message was posted on my Talk page which I have since deleted.
Today - 12th March - six days after the last edit, I restored the corrected sentence. Within six minutes, it was reverted by SchroCat.
I am therefore making a report here of disruptive editing; I ask that my edit be reviewed; I also request that the page be protected.
The edit itself is the correction of a tiny piece of grammar. However, the unfriendly, discourteous and factually (or at least grammatically) incorrect approach by these two editors is exactly the kind of hostile behaviour that discourages good Wikipedia editors from participating.
Note: I should also say, I am a relatively inexperienced Wikipedia editor - if I have made any incorrect steps in trying to use the Disruptive Editing Report protocols, please inform me and I will correct them. Hubertgrove (talk) 16:23, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Hubertgrove, I'm sorry you were having a bad experience--but you come with guns blazing on that talk page, and if you're dealing with an FA, that's rarely a good idea. I left a note or two on that talk page; I do not (yet) see any need for administrative involvement, though I will be happy to block for anything; now that I went up in the ranks, my block payments have doubled. Drmies (talk) 16:33, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for your reply, Drmies (talk - which I do take to heart. Perhaps I was not sufficiently gentle in my tone; however I was not abusive and my changes were in fact necessary and correct. However, my complaint I think is still valid. I'm being double-teamed by two editors who are engaged in disruptive reversions of a correct edit. One of whom makes racist allusions. I really don't think this should be dismissed even with the friendly comment: 'Oh, you should have been nicer to them after they reverted you for the third time'. Is there nothing that can be done? Hubertgrove (talk) 16:39, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- There is something that can be done, sure, but you may not like it. First, you have to understand this is ANI, where we don't really deal with content but with behavior. Second, what could be done is I could, in much more stern language, point out to you that "you sound like British English is not your first language" or words to that effect is not a racist comment, and that bringing supposed racism into this muddies the water and makes you, in fact, guilty of the kind of thing that WP:NPA warns us about.
So, your content edit may be valid, but the things you said in relation to it, I'm sorry--they are not. But I'm waiting for SchroCat or Tim riley to come by here to explain, in cool and calm words, how the milk of human kindness is to be distributed. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 16:43, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- There is something that can be done, sure, but you may not like it. First, you have to understand this is ANI, where we don't really deal with content but with behavior. Second, what could be done is I could, in much more stern language, point out to you that "you sound like British English is not your first language" or words to that effect is not a racist comment, and that bringing supposed racism into this muddies the water and makes you, in fact, guilty of the kind of thing that WP:NPA warns us about.
- Thanks for your reply, Drmies (talk - which I do take to heart. Perhaps I was not sufficiently gentle in my tone; however I was not abusive and my changes were in fact necessary and correct. However, my complaint I think is still valid. I'm being double-teamed by two editors who are engaged in disruptive reversions of a correct edit. One of whom makes racist allusions. I really don't think this should be dismissed even with the friendly comment: 'Oh, you should have been nicer to them after they reverted you for the third time'. Is there nothing that can be done? Hubertgrove (talk) 16:39, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Again, thank you for your comment, Drmies. [I am going to pass on your opinion'"you sound like British English is not your first language" or words to that effect is not a racist comment,' though I do personally hope you may return to it. I believe other editors, perhaps from the UK and the Commonwealth too, and perhaps younger, might come to another conclusion. I am also very concerned that you think raising an issue of racism is itself a form of personal abusive; moreso, it seems than the actual real abuse on the talk page].
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- To the actual issue: You seem to view my complaint from my opening paragraph which while using 'stern language' was still not rude nor abusive, It was, however met with rude and abusive language. I cannot understand how you can let that pass.
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- With respect, you seem to have missed - or possibly deferred from commenting on - that I rewrote the offending sentence, to which you yourself objected, so that it avoided stylistic and grammatical solecism. It is this sentence which has been reverted without explanation.
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- I hope you understand that I am really not trying to be argumentative. I am just defending a correct edit and pointing out hostile editor behaviour. Hubertgrove (talk) 16:57, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Hubert, I think you might be missing the crux of what Drmies is trying to tell you here. Let me preface my own comments with some context: I am quite at-home with British English, but also the dialects of the other anglophone countries I have lived in, all the more so for the fact that I have a degree in comparative linguistics. And I had the exact same reaction to that talk page comment as did Drmies (and apparently Schrocat and Tim riley). This is not a matter of syntactic variation between American and British English, I can assure you. That said, I actually fully agree with you that the phrasing of that statement was/is extremely unwieldy, even borderline garbled, and could use improvement. The problem is not your editorial approach to the content, it's your approach to your fellow contributors and generating consensus amongst them. Maybe you are right, maybe Schorcat and Tim riley are too attached to this content and maintaining it in exactly its current form (or for whatever reason they just don't see the grammatical issue that you do here). But assuming these factors as a given in your very first talk page comment is just a stupendously ill-conceived plan of action for resolving the matter amicably, and indeed borders on a blatant violation of one of Wikipedia crucial behavioural guidelines, WP:Assume good faith.
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- Drmies is absolutely on-target with their assessment that you went "guns blazing" on this issue, with the predictable result that you dramatically undermined the ability of the editors you needed to work with to view your perspectives in the best possible light. Even if you felt from the edit summary exchanges that you had reason to expect resistance to your editorial stance, the best thing to do in that instance is still to calmly present your argument (based on content and policy) without reference to what you think are the motivations of the editors involved. If they disagree, respond likewise to counter-arguments and if it looks like the issue is becoming intractable, and you think your version of the content is worth contesting over, host a WP:Request for comment or seek WP:Dispute resolution. Only after unambiguous and persistent evidence of a disruptive mindset is it appropriate to start making implication of WP:OWN mentalities or other behavioural accusations. Starting out with that is just begging for raised barriers and a magnificent waste of everyone's time as you struggle to overcome the combative mindsets when they are established at the very beginning of discussion. In this context, I don't think their behaviour was in any way more "rude and abusive" than was yours.
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- My best advice is that you go back to the talk page, admit you got off on the wrong foot and ask them why they are so married to original wording of the statement. If you feel they are stone-walling without a good policy reason, RfC the issue. If you are correct on the content matter, and garner the necessary consensus to support your view, they will have to accept it. But they definetly don't have to accept (or tolerate) speculative assumptions about their motivations for their editorial decisions, per WP:NPA. Best of luck. Snow let's rap 23:17, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you Snow Rise. Hubertgrove, pointing out that "English is not your first language" is not racist. Doing so is silly. The comment can be factual, it can be snarky, it can be full of admiration, it can be lots of things, but it really can't be racist, and you can pass on that comment as much as you like but that only makes the observer question your judgment. As it happens, English is not my first language, and I don't understand where this misdirected anger comes from.
Now, it would be very nice if some other admin, preferably someone more competent in English than I/me/myself, would see if this shouldn't be closed. I think Snow Rise said all that needed to be said--wait, that makes this comment kind of redunda — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drmies (talk • contribs) 00:24, 13 March 1026 (UTC)
- Drmies sadly passed away in the midst of this comment, but not before managing to hit the Enter key. [FBDB] clpo13(talk) 00:27, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you Snow Rise. Hubertgrove, pointing out that "English is not your first language" is not racist. Doing so is silly. The comment can be factual, it can be snarky, it can be full of admiration, it can be lots of things, but it really can't be racist, and you can pass on that comment as much as you like but that only makes the observer question your judgment. As it happens, English is not my first language, and I don't understand where this misdirected anger comes from.
- My best advice is that you go back to the talk page, admit you got off on the wrong foot and ask them why they are so married to original wording of the statement. If you feel they are stone-walling without a good policy reason, RfC the issue. If you are correct on the content matter, and garner the necessary consensus to support your view, they will have to accept it. But they definetly don't have to accept (or tolerate) speculative assumptions about their motivations for their editorial decisions, per WP:NPA. Best of luck. Snow let's rap 23:17, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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Personal attacks on talk page in Hebrew
The IP user 109.64.100.131 has just posted the following on my talk page in Hebrew:
שונאים אותך בכל העולם קליפטוניאן ההומו
אין לך חיים הא? תתאבד כבר תעשה טובה להורים שלך ותהרוג את עצמך כל היום 24/7 על ויקיפדיה עורך ערכים מה קרה ישראלים הביאו לך כאפות יא ילד מסכן יא מושפל חחחחחחחחח תתאבד תהרוג את עצמך אין לך חברים כולם שונאים אותך המשפחה שלך שונאת אותך תשים קץ לחיים שלך קח אקדח ותירה לעצמך בראש אף אחד לא אוהב אותך אף אחד לא אהב אות כולם צוחקים עלייך אל תחזור לישראל אף אחד לא רוצה שתהיה פה יא חתיכת יצור אובססיבי מסריח כל מי שרואה אותך נגעל ילדים קטנים מפחדים ממך וכל הבנות גם בישראל וגם מהמדינה שלך חושבות שאתה יצור מכוער ילד כאפות מסריח אמן מחבל ידקור יזיין את אמא שלך ויכניס אותה להריון ויצא לך אח מחבל ערבי שכל היום ירביץ לך יא קוקסינל מסריח איך אתה 24/7 שעות על ויקיפדיה איך? אין לך חיים? חחחחחחחחחחחחחחחחחחחחחחחחחחחח
My own translation, retaining grammar errors etc:
They hate you in all the world Cliftonian you gay
You've got no life, eh? Kill yourself already do some good to your parents and kill yourself all the day 24/7 on Wikipedia making edits what's going on Israelis slapped you up you miserable and humiliated kid hahahahhaha kill yourself kill yourself you have no friends everybody hates you your family hates you put an end to your life take a gun and shoot yourself in the head nobody loves you nobody loves you everyone laughs at you don't come back to Israel nobody wants you to be here you piece of obsessive stinky creature everyone who sees you gets disgusted little children are afraid of you and all the girls both from Israel and from your country think you are an ugly creature a stinky bullied child Amen terrorist will stab you will fuck your mother and get her pregnant and then there will come for you an Arab terrorist brother that all day punches you you stinking shemale how are you 24/7 on Wikipedia how? don't you have life? hahahahahhahahaha
I hope appropriate action will be taken.
All the best, — Cliftonian (talk) 22:04, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- They've made similar attacks on their talk page. clpo13(talk) 22:05, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Acroterion has temporarily blocked the IP and the attacks have removed from the edit history. Hopefully this is the end of the matter, as it is a shame that Cliftonian has had to deal with such ugliness. I almost closed this discussion as resolved, but then thought better of it because I wanted to add that the attacks here are of such an unhinged and disturbing nature that I would personally support a longer-term block of the address and further measures if the attacks resume after this initial block. Cliftonian should definitely feel encouraged to be proactive here in reporting any further abuse. Snow let's rap 22:36, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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- It's not the first time this kind of thing has happened: the same thing happened back in October (see 6–8 October 2015 here). The overall message is fairly similar and it's probably the same person. As in that case I have chosen to leave this evening's message on my talk page with an English translation so people can see it. I will report any more of this. Thanks for the support. Cheers, — Cliftonian (talk) 22:42, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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- @GeneralizationsAreBad: take them off this page now if they really disturb you, but I would really rather have it left on my user talk page with an English translation. It is important to me that people know that this was written to me. — Cliftonian (talk) 22:46, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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- @GeneralizationsAreBad: I'd really rather have it left up on my talk page, if that's okay. This iteration I've copied here I have no problem having taken down if others would prefer. Thanks for being sympathetic. I'm off for the night now, cheers, — Cliftonian (talk) 22:51, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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Before this user went completely off the rails, they started edit-warring on various pages, then revenge-templating on my talk page. I had reported them to 3RR and went out for awhile. I come back to see they continued edit-warring, then vandalizing and then of course the absolutely disgusting comments about Cliftonian on their talk page. There is also a report against this user pending at SPI. For all this... they only get a 48 hour block? Double-you-tee-eph to that. - theWOLFchild 23:14, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well, we can always get a community resolution started here to increase the block. The thing is, with IP's, who may in fact represent numerous different editors sharing an ISP, it is generally considered appropriate to block short-term because the block might otherwise end up restricting other parties than that bad-faith actor (who may have moved on to a new address in some instances anyway) meaning the cost-benefit analysis of a long-term block is a little different from the same sanction directed against a named account. However, in this instance, given the nature of the comments, it seems appropriate to take the strongest available measures that we can without catching others in the net. Can you point us to the SPI in question? Snow let's rap 23:28, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Yossimgim. clpo13(talk) 23:31, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Considering that more disruptive editing is coming from the same 109.6x.xxx.xxx range, both a lengthier block as well as a range block is order. - theWOLFchild 23:39, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thewolfchild I sympathize with your views. I considered extending the term set by the blocking admin when I revoked talkpage access and deleted the revisions, but left it alone. One of the problems with The Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit is that IPs move on and start again somewhere else. I generally block for about a week for this sort of thing, unless evidence suggests a static IP. I'll take a look at the rangeblock potential, though. Acroterion (talk) 02:41, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- Acroterion - Actually the block should be extended at least for the edit warring (see 3RR report) - theWOLFchild 03:26, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- Edit-warring's the least of their problems. Rangeblocks are impractical - the smallest range I could find to block was a /16 range, which is too big. Since their address appears to change on roughly a weekly basis I've upped the block on that IP to two weeks. Acroterion (talk) 03:47, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- Acroterion - Actually the block should be extended at least for the edit warring (see 3RR report) - theWOLFchild 03:26, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- Thewolfchild I sympathize with your views. I considered extending the term set by the blocking admin when I revoked talkpage access and deleted the revisions, but left it alone. One of the problems with The Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit is that IPs move on and start again somewhere else. I generally block for about a week for this sort of thing, unless evidence suggests a static IP. I'll take a look at the rangeblock potential, though. Acroterion (talk) 02:41, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- Considering that more disruptive editing is coming from the same 109.6x.xxx.xxx range, both a lengthier block as well as a range block is order. - theWOLFchild 23:39, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Yossimgim. clpo13(talk) 23:31, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
Disruptive Editing by Lewisthejayhawk
Lewisthejayhawk (talk · contribs) has made numerous disruptive edits on a variety of women's college basketball pages. This has been discussed by me, Sphilbrick (talk · contribs), and WilliamJE (talk · contribs). We have attempted to contact Lewisthejayhawk and instruct them to stop making these constant disruptive edits, however the user will not oblige. The user has also done this in the past, and has been temporarily banned for a very similar situation.--Zach Pepsin (talk) 22:35, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Zachlp, I can see hints of the issues involved on the editor's talk page (including recently deleted comments), but as to the disruption you allege in the articles in question, you must provide diffs if we are to examine the behaviour. Further, when you open a thread about another user here, you must inform them on their talk page. It looks likely that it will simply be deleted with some quasi-cognizable insult in this instance, true, but you still most formally inform them that their behaviour is being discussed here. Snow let's rap 22:41, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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- @Snow Rise: Sure thing. If you don't mind, I am going to copy to here some of the same examples I gave to another user earlier in our discussion. Examples: 1, 2, 3, 4. For context, we repeatedly tell Lewisthejayhawk to stop making the dates of the CBB Standings to a date that is further in the future than the most recent date played. Even after the user responded to me and Sphilbrick both, this still continues today. This is just one example of their disruptive edits, and I can provide plenty more if need be.--Zach Pepsin (talk) 22:46, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
Lewisthejayhawk is currently online and making a TON of disruptive edits. Can this be handled quickly, or can someone refer me to how I can resolve this situation faster? Thank you!--Zach Pepsin (talk) 23:08, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
Can't you just leave it alone? Damn, you always put it like you had and wonder why I keep changing it — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lewisthejayhawk (talk • contribs)
I am currently busy but wiil make a few quick comments. If this thread is still active, I will comment more tomorrow.
- I notified Lewisthejayhawk at his talk page of this thread. This thread wasn't started by me. When I am through with this post I will also notify Sphilbrick.
- Lewisthejayhawk wasn't banned but blocked by Administrator Sphilbrick. That was after I notified SP of Lewisthejayhawk's habit to put in links to nonexistent categories in new articles he was creating. Administrator Bearcat attempted addressing this issue with Lewis even before I did. Relevant talk page threads can be found here[97], here[98], and this one[99] after Lewis was blocked. It wasn't till Lewis was blocked that he responded to other editor's concerns.
- Despite promises to not link to nonexistent categories anymore, Lewis has gone back to that behavior. I addressed[100] him about this at his talk page today and earned this[101] less than stellar reply.
- Lewis does a lot of work on Women's College Basketball articles that few other editors work on.
That is all I can write for now....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 23:31, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
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- This is so painful.
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- I get that most readers of this section couldn’t give a fig about coverage of wbb, but I do, and appreciate the extremely small community of editors who add content in that area. Lewisthejayhawk is one of the more prolific contributors.
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- However, for reasons that I cannot fathom, he has his own ideas on as of dates for conference results (one can make arguments for more than one convention, but I believe we have established a convention, which Lewis sometimes ignores). More disruptively, he creates category redlinks, despite being told repeatedly not to do that. I happen to think the messages were clear, but maybe I’m biased, because I sent some of them. Maybe a message in different words from a different editor will sink in.
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- Please note – Lewis is not the usual case on this page, an editor who is mostly disruptive. Lewis contributes a lot of good content, and I honestly don’t think it is his goal to be disruptive, but messages are not getting through.--S Philbrick(Talk) 01:53, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
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- If you look at the history of pages such as this or this, I add information to the pages, and Lewisthejayhawk promptly removes it without reason within minutes. I gave up on trying to add information until this is resolved because he just keeps taking it down.--Zach Pepsin (talk) 02:43, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
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Disruptive editing to the F1 project
In October last year a report was made of an IP editor persistently disrupting the F1 project here. A block was issued for a week by user:Diannaa and two further blocks were subsequently issued by the same admin. The IP editor however has continued in much the same vein and several members of the F1 project have spent considerable amounts of time, trying to make something of his sub-standard submissions. There have been seven six recent drafts which have been found to be copy-vios two of which have been WP:TE re-submitted several times without fixing issues noted on review and also removing citation tags. There is a tremendous history of disruptive editing by this editor whose IP address changes sometimes more than once a day. He's now up to more than 100 different IPs in the ranges 92.21.240.0/20 and 88.106.224.0/20. Just some of the history of his edits can be seen at User talk:Bretonbanquet who has been one of the editors involved in 'tidying up'. We have tried several times to engage and leave helpful advice on talk-pages but it is not certain which of them he might have seen and he has been known to just blank the page. Here is a diff of him removing a talk page post by another editor and here is one example of an inappropriate edit summary, although he rarely leaves summaries. The F1 project would be grateful for any assistance you can give as we have run out of patience with this editor who has been given plenty of time and more than enough leeway to edit in a conventional manner. I apologise for the long-winded submission. Please let me know if you need any further info. Thanks. Eagleash (talk) 13:34, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
The latest series of posts on the subject at the F1 project is here. Eagleash (talk) 19:30, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Earlier threads on the subject here and here. Eagleash (talk) 12:02, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- I second all of the above, and I can say I've rarely come across an editor who takes such little notice of notability guidelines, or indeed, any guidelines. He almost never engages with other editors, and when he does it's usually uncivil; he never uses talk pages or heeds advice, and creates a huge amount of work for others. He has created large numbers of articles and templates, all of which were either copy-violations, unreadable or not notable (or a combination of the three), and all of which required rewriting, merging or deleting by other editors. To make it worse, it's hard to track the guy's activity as he is forever switching IPs; so you can't talk to him or pin him down long enough to get him to understand how things work.
- This has been going on for a few months now, and some of us seem to spend all our time cleaning up after this guy, when we would rather be doing something more constructive. Any ideas will be gratefully received. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:26, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm an AfC reviewer, and another issue that was brought to my attention regarding this editor was possibly gaming the system. Anonymous contributors are not allowed to create articles directly into mainspace—that's why WP:AFC was started. However, this user has tried to circumvent the standard AFC article review process by first requesting the creation of a redirect at Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Redirects, then turning the redirect into a non-notable article once it is created—effectively creating an article in mainspace. An example is with March 87P. At 20:12, 1 February 2016, the user submitted this request to WP:AFC/R, asking for a redirect from March 87P to March 87B. The issue is, at that time, March 87B was a redirect. Three minutes later, at 20:15, the same editor converts the March 87B redirect into an article, which was found to be non-notable. Then, a few weeks later, the redirect request was accepted, creating March 87P as a redirect, which an IP in the same range converted to an article about the same subject. Mz7 (talk) 22:31, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
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- In relation to the above post, the same editor has recently had deleted, a draft for Wolf Williams, as it was both non-notable and also a copy vio. A re-direct already exists for Wolf Williams to the Williams F1 page. A re-direct has now been requested for "Wolf Williams Racing" , which could mean further attempt to create a Wolf Williams page. Also in relation to the March 87P page, it had to be protected after the IP edit-warred over restoring the re-direct. Eagleash (talk) 22:48, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
BillieKing
Hello,
First, sorry for my english (and sorry if I don't post in in the right place).
I request for blocking the account BillieKing for vandalism (he did the same vandalism on wp:fr) basically he suppresses the fact that the French singer Tal is also a songwriter [102] [103], but the website of the SACEM (a kind of RIAA) indicates she has written 12 songs [104]). Plus on wp:fr BillieKing is the 5th sockpuppet of Billie Aiden (full list here). Billie_Aiden was blocked twice WP:fr (for the same kind of modifications). Sebk (talk) 23:38, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- he also vandalized these pages Le droit de rêver [105] and Le sens de la vie [106]. Sebk (talk) 23:56, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- I've left an ANI notification on their talk page, which as a friendly reminder is something editors need to do when reporting other editors to this page or to the administrator's noticeboard. I've also left them a warning to discuss their changes to the talk page. I recommend that if they continue with this unexplained removal of content, it would be worth reporting them to the vandalism noticeboard or if they are repeatedly reverting other editors' changes, report them to the edit warring noticeboard. Blackmane (talk) 00:10, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
QuackGuru ongoing disruptive behavior at Peyton Manning
QuackGuru (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Since yesterday, QuackGuru has been very disruptive and is now edit warring at Peyton Manning, particularly with regard to a claim in the article which describes the Manning family as "football's royal family". The content originally stated it as fact (in Wikipedia's voice), with no attribution as to who said it. It said, "Because of Peyton and his brother Eli's success, as well as the success of their father, the Manning family is seen as Football's Royal Family." The only source attached was a woman's book, titled Archie, Peyton, and Eli Manning: Football's Royal Family. Amazingly, QuackGuru insists that the "royal family" moniker is not an opinion and therefore should not be attributed to who said it. To correct the problem and give proper context and attribution, per WP:PEACOCK, I changed the text to, "Because of their success, the Mannings were described by author Jeanne Nagle as football royalty in her book Archie, Peyton, and Eli Manning: Football's Royal Family." QuackGuru just reverted the content three times,[107][108][109] and has ignored the editors on the talk page, including myself,[110] explaining to him that the "royal family" content must show attribution to who said it and that it is indeed a peacock term. Tracescoops (talk) 00:32, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- You claim it is a peacock term when you have not shown how it is a peacock term and there is no serious dispute among sources. The dispute must be with sources not editors. See WP:ASSERT.
- There seems to be no consensus for the current wording with over-attribution and extra verbage. If you check the recent edit history it started with this disputed change to replace sourced text with OR. There are more sources to verify the exact same claim. Tracescoops is commenting on the editor rather than focusing on the article. As early as late 2004 the Mannings have been described as "football's royal family". This is old news. It is common knowledge they are referred to as "football's royal family".
- There is an obvious sockpuppet commenting on the talk page. Tracescoops, do you know who CharlatanGourou is? QuackGuru (talk) 01:21, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
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- I don't want to get any deeper into the content issue here than is strictly necessary for the behavioural discussion, but deciding that this moniker is so well-established that it needs no attribution on the basis of a one-off incidental mention in an a single article and the subtitle of a book seems to pretty clearly move into WP:OR territory to me. But putting that aside for a moment, what exactly do you see as the harm in attribution? We'd not be denying a formal title in including it, we'd simply be contextualizing a metaphorical allusion.
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- Anyway, getting away from those content issues and to the crux of the matter, 3RR has been violated here, so you need to pause and consider how much this wording means to you, because it looks like consensus on that talk page reflects a 5-to-1 opposition to your position. This seems like an awfully trivial change to court a block over, especially considering no one is proposing to remove the phrase outright, just qualify its use a little, which is context that can't hurt our readers. Snow let's rap 01:26, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator observation) In this section on the talk page, no editor agrees with QuackGuru that the information should be left unmodified. The consensus therefore is for it to be modified, however the discussion is has not offered any alternatives to this. They only state that it should be attributed to the author, and others should sources be presented. My own personal opinion is that it can be mentioned, but that the wording must be more careful than stating that they have been called the royal family of football. But this noticeboard is for editor behavior, so I'll leave that there.
- QuackGuru, while I understand your desire to see things the way you believe them to be, this is the wrong way to get them that way. You need to take things slow. Whether or not you are correct is irrelevant; if the actions you make are disruptive, then you will get blocked. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 02:10, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- For whatever reason, my comment got removed by the archive bot.... huh. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 03:11, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- QuackGuru, you are obviously alleging that I am also the editor (CharlatanGourou) that posted that talk page comment to you, which I am not. It would be pointless to create a new identity solely to post a short, simple comment when so many other editors disagree with you. Perhaps it's one of the many other editors with whom you've been arguing the past few days. In the meantime, I hope you will listen to what Snow and all the other editors are telling you. Now I want to go look up exactly what "WikiLawyering" means, since that's what CharlatanGourou has accused you of. The fact remains that you violated the edit warring rules and should therefore either be blocked, or be banned from editing the Manning article. Tracescoops (talk) 02:15, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- For whatever reason, my comment got removed by the archive bot.... huh. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 03:11, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
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- @ Tracescoops, you don't need to explain yourself as far as alternate accounts are concerned. If QuackGuru believes you are socking, they need to report that to SPI, with evidence, otherwise withdraw the accusation and apologize, as accusing someone of socking without proof is a personal attack (and could also be considered a red herring here).
- @ QuackGuru, Snow Rise has given you some very good advice here and I suggest you follow it. This is such a minor issue, it should never have needed to come to ANI. Surely you guys can wait until there is some consensus on the article talk page and then just go with that, no? - theWOLFchild 02:55, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
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- I've added some sources to the talk page for editors to discuss.--173.216.248.174 (talk) 03:04, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
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- IP, I've replied to you on the Manning talk page. However, the issue with regard to QuackGuru's edit warring and disruptive behavior still remains and should be addressed. Tracescoops (talk) 03:32, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
As I said before, there is no dispute. We can add more sources if editors continue to deny what reliables state. There are many sources. Here is a new source. See Talk:Peyton Manning#More sources. Is there a valid reason to keep the over-attribution now? QuackGuru (talk) 03:45, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- Obviously, there is a dispute, as others like Meters have told you. In any case, the reason we're here is because of your behavior and edit warring. And you have just exhibited your disruptive attitude again by refusing to even acknowledge that content that's been under dispute has only ever had one source to verify it (the woman's book). Instead, you are once again misreprenting the facts by implying there were "many sources" being used, when you know it's untrue. There were never any additional sources and the IP just presented the additional ones. The issue remains, you edit warred and have been blocked for it, and numerous other disruptions, many times before. Tracescoops (talk) 04:10, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- There are many sources being discussed on the talk page. See Talk:Peyton Manning#More sources. Since it is not one source the wording can change rather than implying it is only one source and a minor view. The proposal to use the word "some" instead is not verifiable. I think V policy is relevant here. QuackGuru (talk) 04:24, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
Can an administrator please review this request for appropriate sanctions against QuackGuru. And please note his latest obstructionist behavior here. Tracescoops (talk) 04:35, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well, you could always propose something, like a topic ban for QuackGuru on the Manning article. Or you could report QuackGuru's edit warring on the appropriate noticeboard--I'm not good at counting but I think they've gone past 3RR. Is QuackGuru aware of WP:NEWBLPBAN? By the way, Tracescoops, you're remarkably well-versed in policy and editorial skills for such a new account: congratulations. Drmies (talk) 05:06, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
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- A bit passive-aggressive there, Drmies. If you're accusing me of doing something improper, then perhaps you should read The Wolf Child's comment above. In any case, reading and understanding policies, and watching how others do things doesn't require a Ph.D. Tracescoops (talk) 05:31, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
Promotional material by IP
The IP in this thread is promoting his own beliefs. I just commented there but they kept on the same behavior. Can any one take a look at it? Mhhossein (talk) 02:48, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
User talk with Wikipedia Policy on the page
Hi, on User_talk:Synthelabobabe21, the person has a Wikipedia Policy header on the top of their page. That probably does not belong there, right? Can I remove it? What sort of notification should I give about it? Thanks In veritas (talk) 04:43, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator observation) Don't think so. I've removed them. (WP:OWNTALK) EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 06:38, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
WP:Reference Desk/Humanities
Yet another sock of the antisemitic troll needs a banning. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 07:39, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- @Sagittarian Milky Way: Report them as sock of Soft skin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) over on WP:SPI. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 07:45, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
Latest IP's of a troll
Last AN/I entry here. Eik Corell (talk) 12:51, 13 March 2016 (UTC)