Dispute resolution (Requests) |
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A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Wikipedia. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.
This page trancludes from /Case, /Clarification and Amendment, /Motions, and /Enforcement.
Please make your request in the appropriate section:
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Contents
- 1 Requests for arbitration
- 2 Requests for clarification and amendment
- 2.1 Amendment request: Rich Farmbrough
- 2.1.1 Statement by Rich Farmbrough
- 2.1.2 Statement by Carrite
- 2.1.3 Statement by WereSpielChequers
- 2.1.4 Statement by Fæ
- 2.1.5 Statement by IJBall
- 2.1.6 Statement by Jenks24
- 2.1.7 Statement by Littleolive oil
- 2.1.8 Statement by Sladen
- 2.1.9 Statement by Wbm1058
- 2.1.10 Statement by GoodDay
- 2.1.11 Statement by Deryck
- 2.1.12 Statement by {other-editor}
- 2.1.13 Rich Farmbrough: Clerk notes
- 2.1.14 Rich Farmbrough: Arbitrator views and discussion
- 2.2 Clarification request: Privatemusings
- 2.2.1 Statement by CypherPunkyBrewster
- 2.2.2 Statement by Beyond My Ken
- 2.2.3 Statement Rich Farmbrough (CPB)
- 2.2.4 Statement by JzG
- 2.2.5 Answer from NE Ent
- 2.2.6 Statement by Callanecc
- 2.2.7 Statement by EdJohnston
- 2.2.8 Statement by {other-editor}
- 2.2.9 Privatemusings: Clerk notes
- 2.2.10 Privatemusings: Arbitrator views and discussion
- 2.3 Amendment request: Lightbreather
- 2.3.1 Statement by Hullaballoo Wolfowitz
- 2.3.2 Statement by Lightbreather
- 2.3.3 Statement by John Carter
- 2.3.4 Statement by Fæ
- 2.3.5 Statement by GoodDay
- 2.3.6 Statement by MarkBernstein
- 2.3.7 Statement by Carrite
- 2.3.8 Statement by Mangoe
- 2.3.9 Statement by Rich Farmbrough (LB)
- 2.3.10 Statement by {other-editor}
- 2.3.11 Lightbreather: Clerk notes
- 2.3.12 Lightbreather: Arbitrator views and discussion
- 2.4 Amendment request: Palestine-Israel articles
- 2.5 Clarification request: Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )
- 2.5.1 Statement by Callanecc
- 2.5.2 Statement by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )
- 2.5.3 Statement by Beyond My Ken
- 2.5.4 Statement by Andreas Philopater
- 2.5.5 Statement by Bencherlite
- 2.5.6 Statement by Rich Farmbrough (RAN)
- 2.5.7 Statement by {other-editor}
- 2.5.8 Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): Clerk notes
- 2.5.9 Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): Arbitrator views and discussion
- 2.1 Amendment request: Rich Farmbrough
- 3 Motions
- 4 Requests for enforcement
- 4.1 Nocturnalnow
- 4.1.1 Request concerning Nocturnalnow
- 4.1.2 Discussion concerning Nocturnalnow
- 4.1.2.1 Statement by D.Creish
- 4.1.2.2 Statement by Nocturnalnow
- 4.1.2.3 Statement by Muboshgu
- 4.1.2.4 Statement by Johnuniq
- 4.1.2.5 Statement by Gamaliel
- 4.1.2.6 Statement by Rhoark
- 4.1.2.7 Statement by Cla68
- 4.1.2.8 Statement by Professor JR
- 4.1.2.9 Statement by Ryk72
- 4.1.2.10 Statement by (username)
- 4.1.3 Result concerning Nocturnalnow
- 4.2 Appeal of discretionary sanction topic ban violation block of HughD
- 4.3 Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )
- 4.4 Onefortyone
- 4.5 Lvivske
- 4.6 Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Yossiea~enwiki
- 4.1 Nocturnalnow
Requests for arbitration
Requests for clarification and amendment
Amendment request: Rich Farmbrough
Initiated by Rich Farmbrough at 12:47, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- Rich Farmbrough (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- Information about amendment request
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- Terminate the remedy
Statement by Rich Farmbrough
In a case brought against me some three and a half years ago, it was found that certain community norms had been broken by me, specifically WP:BOTPOL, WP:5P4 and WP:ARBRFUAT.
I note that in the intervening period I have complied with WP:BOTPOL, been civil and collegial with other editors, and been responsive to other editors concerns, as anyone active in the community will know.
In particular I have continued to work at WP:TEAHOUSE, welcome new users, attempted to smooth ruffled feathers at WP:GGTF, mainly by focussing discussion on substantive issues, provided assistance to other editors both on and off-wiki (a list could be made available if desired). I have continued to work on other wikis with no issues.
I also continue to perform work high community trust, on protected templates, but more importantly on edit filters where, together with others (notably Dragons flight) I have overhauled almost every filter to ensure that the whole system continues to work (it was failing) and new filters can be implemented.
Moreover not only have I been policy compliant, collegial and responsive, I have every intention of continuing indefinitely to be so.
For these reasons I request the Arbitration Committee to terminate remedy 2.
Addenda:
Please note that I am eligible to request termination of this sanction from 15 January 2013. The sanction, qua sanction, is continuing to impact my good name in the community, notably impeding my recent RfA, and so the time has come to remove it.
Please also note that I have suggested a more nuanced approach to complete termination in the past, which has been dismissed by various committee members, with rather unflattering characterisations.
- Responses
Thryduulf I would certainly consider you views valuable. I have met with other members of the committee at various wiki-functions. Whether to recuse must be your decision. I would not find fault either way. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 20:28, 8 October 2015 (UTC).
- Thryduulf "editor's future employment prospects" maybe; however they can and maybe should consider the effect on the project - especially if the reasons for maintaining the restriction aren't particularly cogent.
- "All automated tasks paused or blocked until..." You may be aware that I offered this as part of a solution in the workshop. (I was under the illusion that a workshop was for co-operating to find a way forward.) And I believe that SmackBot was the only major bot that allowed anyone (including IPs) to stop it - a facility I intended to reintroduce for Helpful Pixie Bot.
- Hotcat: really I would doubt that I would use it more than a few times a week at most.
- All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:10, 12 October 2015 (UTC).
- Clarification - I am not looking to any of the half-dozen tools I mention to perform masses of edits. I am probably one of the slowest Huggle users there is - because I tend to look in more depth at anything that could possibly be good-faith. It's simply that these tools are all useful, and most of them can be used by every Wikipdia editor except me. Certainly even an IP is allowed to prepare a table in Libre Office and paste the result on-wiki.
- All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:54, 12 October 2015 (UTC).
Guerillero You must have a reason for saying that, do you mind if I ask what it is?
Gorilla Warfare It's hard to be specific. Indeed I have very little time to put into large scale projects. But even simple things like:
- This list I created on Meta today are forbidden on en:WP.
- User:WereSpielChequers has a number of lists that need updating.
- There is a lot of work with WP:Women in Red that needs doing.
- User:Carrite was looking for better information on editor activity, which I have acquired the data for, but not started coding, partly because I would not be allowed to upload the results.
- The correction of the User:Jagged 85 issues has ground to a halt, partly because I had to load my diagnostics onto Meta
- It would be nice to be able to use Twinkle, Reflinks and Hotcat
- I might even do some anti-vandal work with Huggle or STiki
But the main point is the stigma. This affects not just my standing in the community, but my ability to volunteer for certain roles on-wiki, and even my eligibility for employment off-wiki.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:32, 10 October 2015 (UTC).
Seraphimblade What lead up to it? A lot of things, that I can address here (or elsewhere) if you wish. However what I prefer to address specifically is the negative "findings of fact" which are putatively the committee's take on "what lead up to it." For example one suggested that I was "not responsive". I do not here challenge that claim, I simply point out that since that date I have been responsive. Similarly I have not infringed on BOTPOL. And I doubt anyone could challenge that I have been collegial - indeed my main thrust on the non-content part of Wikipedia has to be to encourage people to work together - and civil. Indeed I have had two complaints about being too civil.
Moreover I can state categorically that I have every intention of continuing to be collegial, civil, responsive and policy compliant.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 15:11, 10 October 2015 (UTC).
(Currently watching WikiConference USA live.)
Corcelles Your response does not provide any useful feedback. I have explicitly invited feedback from Arbitrators on several occasions over the years, which has given you plenty of opportunity to discuss any issues you think remain unresolved. If, of course, you believe that I am an unredeemable case, then no feedback is to be expected, as it would be a waste of your valuable time. Otherwise a more detailed response would be useful.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:35, 10 October 2015 (UTC).
AGK I am surprised you are not recusing yourself here All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:05, 12 October 2015 (UTC).
Native Foreigner I am always interested in any wisdom about my actions. I reiterate the invitation to share or discuss them, here, on my talk page, by email, by phone/Skype or in person which I made some considerable time ago.
As to looking into the case, I'm afraid it's a bit of a mammoth, but I find the weakness of the supporting evidence to the findings, and particularly the need to go back additional years quite telling. To take one example, I am under sanctions now, partly for making edits in 2010, which someone has deemed were "too fast" to comply with BOTPOL. And yet there is nothing in BOTPOL of 10 November 2010 about any limitation on assisted editing speed. (Later versions specifically exclude speed alone as being an issue.) And the speed wasn't excessive - most editors who do administrative work will have had bursts of comparable speed - for example you edited at 10 edits per minute on 17 July. According to the 2012 committee you should have submitted a BRFA authorisation for that.
Now this is just one part of one finding, and it took quite some research to check the BOTPOL pages for the appropriate dates, check the evidence, come up with a comparator. It is also a nominally objective piece of evidence and a nominally objective policy. For subjective matters like being "civil" and "responsive" the amount of work required to construct a good refutation is much higher. I therefore requested the committee allow me 14 days to put together a response to the proposed findings. This was refused and I never got to defend myself from the very surprising proposed decision, and have been working on-and-off to deal with the problems it has caused ever since.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 03:57, 13 October 2015 (UTC).
DGG Perhaps you would like to give an example? We have a lot of tools in our kit-bag to deal with problems, making them mostly trivial to resolve. There are no negative findings about any automated edits. Indeed finding WP:ARB RF EX EX EX states:
He has extensive experience with and expertise in the use of automation...
All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:08, 14 October 2015 (UTC).
Salvio giuliano Thank you for your positive response. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 18:21, 19 October 2015 (UTC).
Doug Weller Thanks for your thoughtful response. It might be of interest to know that I offered to work with a similar halting system during the workshop phase of the case. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 18:21, 19 October 2015 (UTC).
DeltaQuad Thanks for your response, it's good to see another positive outlook. It's not really out of the blue I have suggested such steps as most arbs now seem to endorse several times over the years. In fact I emailed this request to the Committee over two months ago, so there was plenty of advance warning!
So perhaps it's time for a motion? All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 03:21, 7 November 2015 (UTC).
Statement by Carrite
I'm not sure what exactly would prevent Rich from parsing a large data set and posting his results, which he mentions above with regards to analysis of WMF data to draw inferences about the editing population. If anything stands in the way of this, it needs to be set aside, at a minimum. As for the rest, once again ArbCom is looking more than a little stubborn and vindictive here in not allowing RF some sort of path back to full functionality as an editor. Drop his restrictions and restore them by motion if he resumes negative behavior, it seems obvious. I'm very frustrated with the current committee's lack of faith or willingness to take minor risks for the greater good of the project. Carrite (talk) 14:56, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
Statement by WereSpielChequers
I can see that Arbcom might see an opportunity here merely to clarify the original excessive limitations and allow Rich to use hotcat and reflinks and to generate reports in his own userspace or ideally Wikipedia space. But really the time for such a clarification was three and a half years ago, surely by now it is time to simply lift that sanction.
As Rich mentioned he has produced some very useful lists Wikipedia:Articles with UK Geocodes but without images being my favourite example. Along with a couple of other editors I've been testing image adding as an exercise for new editors, and we reckon we are ready, we just need this sanction lifted so we can get the report regularly refreshed instead of telling newbies to remove items from the list.
With the loss of toolserver and the problems at labs we have lost many regular reports. Including three areas I've started or been involved in such as Death Anomalies - which would be the next one I'd ask Rich to consider adopting. The lack of these reports is incredibly frustrating, and seriously holds the project back. You have an opportunity to reduce that problem by lifting or at least reducing the restrictions on Rich. ϢereSpielChequers 09:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Fæ
It is time to move on, and let the Community of Wikipedians take over, rather than Arbcom never letting go and in the process throwing away the Committee's valuable time, which ought to be invested on real risks and divisive harmful issues within the community.
There is no risk whatsoever to Wikimedia projects if all sanctions are now lifted. This long ago became a incomprehensible and bureaucratic punishment, rather than a sanction that can be claimed to be done to "protect the community", or Rich for that matter.
If members of Arbcom wish to advise the Wikipedia community, they might validly suggest a voluntary restriction like 10 pages per minute. I have no doubt that Rich would subscribe to these suggestions and make a case with the community when he is ready to relax them further. There are plenty of highly active Wikimedians that will help Rich out with advice and reviews of his edits, should they introduce any issues with articles or templates.
Everyone writing here knows that Rich is a valuable contributor who has rare talents to offer our shared mission and he should be supported, encouraged and praised for his astonishing commitment, rare skills and patience during this years long case.
I haven't talked in person to Rich since last year. However we have had several chats about the future of the projects, chapters and the Foundation over the years. Back in 2012 I interviewed him about his experience with Arbcom, this remains unpublished. I expected to write it up once his Arbcom sanctions ended, as I did not want an interview which examined the experience and emotional impact that long punitive cases like this have, to influence the case or later appeals. We had no idea that this would be eating up our time and stopping Rich from contributing in 2015. --Fæ (talk) 12:55, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Statement by IJBall
After three and a half years, it's time to just lift these sanctions. I don't think leaving them in place in any way serves the interest of the project. I doubt very much that Rich is suddenly going to go off into 'La La Land' if these restrictions are lifted. It's time to AGF here and move on. Also, it is reasonable to assume that leaving these sanctions in place will make it impossible for Rich to advance at RfA and be resysopped – thus leaving sanction in place almost seems punitive at this point. Anyway, that's my $0.02. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:33, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Jenks24
Adding my support for the sanction to be lifted. Others have said it more eloquently above so I won't try and rehash it. Plus, if I'm honest, I'm still pretty annoyed about the original decision and I'm not sure if writing a few paragraphs criticising the committee would help Rich's case here. Suffice it to say, I think they made the wrong call then and it looks even more wrong three years down the track. Please do the right thing and extend Rich some good faith. Jenks24 (talk) 07:28, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Littleolive oil
While intuition and gut feeling about something might be legitimate on Wikipedia; in an Arbitration case and with the arbs as with the rest of the community those feelings must be supported by specific diffs of actions which clearly indicate a user cannot be trusted or has not functioned appropriately under a restriction. 31/2 years is along time, and I don't see any specific diffs from that time period pointing to poor editing behaviour or to behaviours which would indicate a restriction is necessary. Arbitrators are held to the same standards we all are and should support allegations with substantive proof for their positions. Arbitrators are not judges or juries; they are the neutral third party in disputes. Here the parties. the members of the community who have concerns and Rich have spoken so the arbs then, given the definitions of their role must indicate why this is not sufficient to undue a restrictions. In my opinion assuming a position on 3 1/2 years of editing with out anything specific or substantive to support that position is unfair and punitive neither which are appropriate.
- Per Thryduulf:
The community is the encyclopedia. They, community and encyclopedia, as I think you are implying are not mutually exclusive except in some instances. Your comment brought up for me an conern I have when I see the statement, "this is an encyclpedia first." It is not an encyclpedia first, it is first a collaboratibe project the goal of which is to create an encyclopedia. Unless the individuals are treated fairly the communithy will eventually collapse and so of course will the encyclopedia. I have great respect for Thryduulf's consistent, deeply thoughtful comments. Thank you. :O)(Littleolive oil (talk) 15:48, 19 October 2015 (UTC)) Statement by {other-editor}
Statement by Sladen
Some of Rich statements are extremely encouraging: "one suggested that I was "not responsive". I do not here challenge that claim, I simply point out that since that date I have been responsive." and reassuring: "I am not looking to any of the half-dozen tools I mention to perform masses of edits.". These are countered by argumentation: "There are no negative findings about any automated edits."—Findings of fact are hopefully neutral; and rationale that are not obviously for the benefit of the encyclopedia: "eligibility for employment off-wiki" and "notably impeding my recent RfA".
The block has had a positive effect on Rich's contributions and it is extremely pleasing that Rich has built a new niche after the boundaries were made clear—but editors have long memories of the (past) unparalleled disruption caused by self-invented-up AWB tasks, so it's unlikely to be able to find a route that's going to please everyone the first time around. We can see the clearly divided opinions, so something down the middle is probably the least unpalatable to all.
It is extremely easy to simply say "no", but perhaps Doug et al's suggestions of limited parole in own User space and performing tasks requested by others (ie. not dreamt-up) in non-article space, are a plausible solution. For the proponents this gives Rich Farmbrough a chance to prove himself, and for the doubters this can be seen as WP:ROPE. Enforcement likely needs to stay at WP:AE with incrementing draconian blocks, because this is the only remedy has worked effectively in effecting behavioural change, with everything else has resulted in endless discussion ("dramaz"). For AE to be effective any new boundaries require equally clear-cut edges so that evaluation can be quantifiable and enforcement can be emotionless—Rich should know where the edges are without the need to feel or push.
Yes, I have [past tense] been massively inconvenienced by Rich + bots for several years, half-a-decade ago. I've been watching this and I'm even willing to argue for some level of rehabilitation. Even I'm amazed by that. Support has its limits through; and I would invite Rich to make a clear statement about whether he wishes to go the bot route (here) or the admin route (RfA)—I don't think any combination of trying to do both is either tenable or feasible. Such an undertaking might well be sufficient for even the most resolute doubters to come around. —Sladen (talk) 21:58, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Wbm1058
The only lingering damage from Rich's automated editing that I'm aware of is that which is part of the history-merge backlog. It's unfortunately a catch-22 that Rich can't repair these without the admin tools. Can anyone with a long memory identify any other issues caused by Rich's automated edits which have not yet been repaired? If yes, I'd ask him to fix those first before granting this request. If no, then I agree that by now it is time to simply lift the sanction. "Probation" can simply be requiring him to promptly fix any damage he creates, and to make limited "trial runs" of any new major repetitive automated edits, then stop and wait to ensure that there is no negative reaction to it, so that if there is, the repair of such damage will not be exceedingly difficult or time-consuming. Wbm1058 (talk) 02:16, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
Statement by GoodDay
It's been over 3 years now. IMHO, the restriction should be repealed & Rich given a chance to prove himself. GoodDay (talk) 02:32, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Deryck
Rich's sanctions were made 3.5 years ago. They were criticized as ill-defined back then, and 3.5 years on they are more ill-defined than they were, because Wikipedia editing tools have moved on. I would like to see the sanction lifted altogether, but I understand the "risk" that our honorable Arbitrators think they're taking on this manner. Even so, I think Remedy 2 desperately needs to be rewritten in a way that is tool-independent and objectively enforceable - "any edits that reasonably appear to be automated" has never been properly enforceable and has generated so much adverse wiki-lawyering over the years. As a compromise, I propose limiting the scope of Rich's sanctions to reader-facing namespaces only (article, template, category, portal; excluding all talk pages); and redefining the sanction in terms of edit rate, e.g. max 1 edit per minute, or 200 edits per 24 hours. Deryck C. 22:48, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Rich Farmbrough: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Rich Farmbrough: Arbitrator views and discussion
- I'm considering whether to recuse on this, given extensive interaction with Rich IRL at wikimeets and the like. Rich, if you have a strong opinion either way let me know and I'll respect that. Thryduulf (talk) 14:49, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
- I have decided I do not need to recuse here. I do not think that an editor's future employment prospects are something that we can consider (cf Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fæ#Motion Carried re images of sexuality in ancient and medieval times) as our remit is to act in the interests of the encyclopaedia and the wider project rather than the interests of individual editors (where these are mutually exclusive). In contrast perhaps to previous committees I'm tempted to allow a modification to the restriction. As an initial proposal for discussion I would suggest allowing:
- the manual use of WP:HOTCAT at a rate not exceeding a rate of 10 pages edited using hotcat in any 60 minute period. Your hotcat edits should not exceed 50% of your total article namespace edits in any 24 hour period.
- the use of automated tools to generate project-space or userspace lists and to maintain those lists if necessary, where these have been asked for by other Wikimedians and have permission granted at WP:BOTREQ.
- These would all be subject to the requirement that in the event of any complaints or queries raised about your automated edits by another editor, all automated tasks must be paused or halted at least until the issue is resolved to the satisfaction of all parties, or to the satisfaction of an uninvolved administrator if agreement cannot be reached.
- I would not, at this stage, be inclined to allow the use of any automated tools that make any edits to content namespaces (other than hotcat). I do not think that these would lead to the problems that lead to these restrictions in the first place, but would allow Rich to demonstrate he can use automation responsibly. Thryduulf (talk) 10:21, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- @Rich Farmbrough: I intend to try and move this request forward and get an actual outcome, however the Eric Corbett, Lightbreather and Gender gap issues have rather stolen the Committee's time at present so I can't say exactly when that will be. Thryduulf (talk) 14:14, 29 October 2015 (UTC) resigning to fix the ping Thryduulf (talk) 14:15, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
- I have decided I do not need to recuse here. I do not think that an editor's future employment prospects are something that we can consider (cf Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fæ#Motion Carried re images of sexuality in ancient and medieval times) as our remit is to act in the interests of the encyclopaedia and the wider project rather than the interests of individual editors (where these are mutually exclusive). In contrast perhaps to previous committees I'm tempted to allow a modification to the restriction. As an initial proposal for discussion I would suggest allowing:
- I'm not inclined to remove this sanction --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 04:01, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
- @Rich Farmbrough: What kind of bot-assisted edits would you intend to make, should this sanction be removed? GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:05, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- @Rich Farmbrough: What do you understand as the issues that led up to the sanction being placed, and what steps would you take to prevent similar situations from occurring again? Seraphimblade Talk to me 13:35, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- I think I could support a relaxation of the restriction, as I do see the point that Rich's overall style of interaction really has improved. I think I'd want to see how that works out before supporting a parole leading toward eventual lifting. I think the restrictions to non-mainspace for automated tasks are wise, at least initially, and certainly only to preapproved tasks (and any tests necessary prior to approval). For semiautomation, like Huggle and the like, I think we could allow normal use of that, provided that such tools are not used for any unsupervised, fully automated editing in mainspace and Rich is in fact pressing the button for each such edit. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:48, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- I will not support removing or loosening this sanction. Courcelles (talk) 14:36, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
-
- Actually, I would support one and only one relaxation; that being to Rich's own userspace and user talk space. Courcelles (talk) 02:23, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
- I too would not allow this request. AGK [•] 09:16, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- I have serious concerns about lifting such sanctions. That being said I do somewhat concur with the view that occasionally risks must be taken. The action which Rich took were indubitably problematic and I think to some degree he may not fully understand what was problematic about them. I feel, personally, like it may not be prudent. However, we're quite far down the line and to take a risk (or even to do something as minor as allowing bot edits in non content workspaces so long as the bot is reviewed, or perhaps implementing a somewhat more strict mentor or approval process). As my term continues I am growing less and less enthusiastic with the notion of grand packages of restrictions to allow problem editors to stay, although this is primarily within the realm of civility. Nonetheless I think this needs discussion past the point of "I have issues trusting this individual." Don't get me wrong, I have concerns about lifting the restriction myself, but it's been 3+ years and some of the originally identified poor behaviors seem to have changed for the better. The general community support for removing them also bears considering. The individual certainly seems to have more trust with the community than with the members of arbcom, and why exactly this is I am not sure, but it has convinced me I should look more into the case to see if I am missing anything from either side. NativeForeigner Talk 17:14, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- The problems that can be created by any automated editing can be so difficult to resolve, that I'm not prepared to take the risk. DGG ( talk ) 05:46, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
- In this case, I support a parole; alternatively, if there is no consensus for that, I also support a relaxation of the restriction. Salvio Let's talk about it! 10:57, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
- I support gradual relaxation, with the first stage his own userspace and talkpage, work on User:Jagged 85 if that doesn't involved directly editing articles, and specific requests from users such as User:WereSpielChequers to do non-article space work (which other editors could then move into article spaceif required). Where appropriate obviously he'd need permission granted at WP:BOTREQ. I don't see any particular risks in such a relaxation and it appears that other editors and indeed the project could benefit from it. I'd include Thryduulf's requirement that "These would all be subject to the requirement that in the event of any complaints or queries raised about your automated edits by another editor, all automated tasks must be paused or halted at least until the issue is resolved to the satisfaction of all parties, or to the satisfaction of an uninvolved administrator if agreement cannot be reached." Rich should be given a chance to show that he can use his skills responsibly. Doug Weller (talk) 15:35, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
- I can't see completely dropping this measure out of the blue, though I do see the community that wishes we'd move on. So that said, a gradual relaxation or something of the sort of things mentioned above is definitely in order. I would start with the userspace first and see where that goes though. I'll ponder some thoughts over the next steps. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 05:41, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
- Support lifting the restriction entirely without prejudice to reimposing it via a successful ARCA request or similar, if problems recur. I've read through the original case and would have voted the same way as the majority In imposing the restriction in the first place. But three years later, am willing to AGF and see how it goes. For avoidance of doubt, also support any gradual lifting of the restriction as proposed above, if these seem likely to get a majority of supports here. -- Euryalus (talk) 05:32, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
Clarification request: Privatemusings
Initiated by CypherPunkyBrewster at 15:22, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
- CypherPunkyBrewster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Statement by CypherPunkyBrewster
Note: This is a legitimate alternative account. I will be happy to reveal my main account to arbcom on request.
In the 2007 Privatemusings case, (Final decision --> Principles --> Sockpuppetry) the following language was used:
"Sockpuppet accounts are not to be used in discussions internal to the project, such as policy debates."
This is referenced by Wikipedia:Sock puppetry (Inappropriate uses of alternative accounts --> Editing project space) with the language
"Editing project space: Undisclosed alternative accounts are not to be used in discussions internal to the project."
I created this account after the gamergate arbcom case. In that case, I did not comment on that case using my main account because so many people who have expressed an opinion on gamergate have received real-world harassment off-wiki. I was hoping to use this account if that ever happened again (and, of course, only in cases where I was unambiguously uninvolved.)
Q1: In cases where I have had no prior interactions with anyone named in an arbcom case and had never edited the pages being discussed is using my alternate account to make a statement in an arbcom case a legitimate use of an alternate account?
Q2: Same question, but for ANI, RS noticeboard, NPOV noticeboard, AIAV, COI noticeboard, etc.
Q3: What, exactly, are undisclosed alternative accounts? Is this account "disclosed" by way of my disclosing that it is an alternative account, or do I have to name my main account?
Q4: What, exactly are "discussions internal to the project" and/or "edits to project space"? Are we talking about namespaces here, and if so, which ones?
Basically, I just want clear guidelines on what I can and can not do using this alternative account. I am not disputing any policies or decisions; I just want to know how to follow them.
- To User:JzG, who wrote "CypherPunkyBrewster is an account apparently created to advance the cause of climate change denial": You are wrong, and you are failing to assume good faith. This alternate account was created in order to edit articles and participate in discussions related to those articles where there is a significant chance of being branded as pro-gamergate, anti-gamergate, global warming denialist, global warming alarmist, pinko liberal, tea-party conservative, or even swivel-eyed loon. I am well aware of the discretionary sanctions associated with American Politics and Climate Change. I do not believe that I have violated the DS using this account, and I have completely stayed away from climate change on my main account for obvious reasons. If you think that I have violated the DS, feel free to report me at AE (I have no problem with identifying my main account to arbcom and asking them to publicly confirm no global warming involvement.)
- To User:Rich Farmbrough, who wrote "Of course that is a matter for the community, not the committee, though their comments would undoubtedly have some weight", because the 2007 Privatemusings case is cited at the sock puppetry page, I strongly suspect that any attempt to start a community discussion on this topic would quickly devolve into multiple comments telling me to go to arbcom, so I did that first. Also, depending on how one answers my questions above, I could very well be forbidden from starting a community discussion on this topic. It would be, after all, a "discussions internal to the project". CypherPunkyBrewster (talk) 03:57, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
- To User:Seraphimblade (regarding the entire comment), That makes perfect sense to me, and I will have no problem following the clarification you posted. Thanks! On reflection, I see the wisdom of using the alternate account only for article editing and dispute resolution directly related to those articles. I will stay away from discussions of project policy, requesting sanctions against other editors, or general participation in dispute resolution or audited content processes when not related to articles I am working on with my alternate account. And of course I already knew that the main and alternate account must keep strictly clear of editing in the same area, and all the other "don't do that"s listed in the sock puppetry policy. I will note that I made one edit that I now know was not allowed.[1] I apologize for that and assure you that it will not happen again. Again, thanks for the clear explanation. CypherPunkyBrewster (talk) 04:17, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
- To Salvio giuliano, If another case like gamergate ever hits arbcom, I would like to comment as an uninvolved editor (revealing my main account to arbcom so you can verify that I am not involved), but not if it means revealing my real-world identity. Some of those involved in gamergate have done some nasty real-world harassment against those who disagree with them. Let me know if you think a majority of arbcom agrees with you and I will post an RfC at the sock puppet page. I have never made a gamergate edit using either account, but assuming that I had edited gamergate using my alternate account, as I understand it it would be OK for someone to name me as being involved, followed by my revealing my main account to arbcom so you can confirm that the main account has never edited gamergate. So let's say that happens and I end up being blocked (not likely, BTW; my main account is over five years old with over 10,000 edits and no blocks or editing restrictions and I don't intent to abuse this one either). It would seem reasonable in that case to block both accounts, but how to do that without revealing my real-world identity? In my particular case I know the rules about block evasion and would cease editing using my main account until the block was lifted on my alternate account, but I doubt that this would be a good solution for the more aggressive editors who end up at arbcom. So how do we handle that situation? --CypherPunkyBrewster (talk) 17:32, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- To GorillaWarfare, is it even allowed for an alternate account like mine to make a clean start while the main account stays the same? I kind of assumed that that wouldn't be allowed. Unrelated question; I do want to give people confidence that I am not violating our sock puppet rules, so if I put a notice on my user page saying that any and all checkusers can look at my account for any reason, would that override the usual checkuser restrictions? Is there any way my waiving my privacy in that way could compromise the privacy of someone else? CypherPunkyBrewster (talk) 17:42, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- Related question: Again just asking about what this particular arbcom decision does and does not allow, and of course assuming that the other legitimate sock puppet restrictions are obeyed, is an alternate account allowed to ask questions at the teahouse, reference desk, or help desk? I think that we have already established that this is allowed if in support of an article the alt account is working on, but how about generally? Some questions might be of a personal nature. How about answering questions posted by others? I saw a recent rrefdesk question where one of the answers mentioned that the person answering was transgender. That might not be something you want to be published on the internet about yourself. --CypherPunkyBrewster (talk) 20:28, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Beyond My Ken
I urge the committee not to accept any requests from this account until there is a public declaration of the editor's primary account. BMK (talk) 20:37, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
- Re: Guy's comment below, I concur that CPB's edits do indeed seem to be pushing that agenda. I have asked CPB on their talk page to reveal what account they are an alternate of, but if he or she refuses or ignores the request, I strongly urge the committee not to proceed without CPB revealing to the committee what that account is, and an evaluation being made to see if any aspect of WP:SOCK is being violated. Alternate accounts may not be used to avoid scrutiny, and the climate change area is certainly one in which there has been a significant amount of sockpuppety and other disruptions. BMK (talk) 22:06, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
So on his talk page - as well as personally attacking me and my motivations - CPB says that he wants to use this account to edit contentious subjects, such as Gamergate, Climate Change, and American Politics. But there is a standard in place for editing Gamergate - since we don't know who CPB is, how is that standard of time/edits to be applied? Certainly the CPB account wouldn't qualify.
In any case, from CPB's description on the talk page, it appears to me that what he wants is a "get out of jail free" card, where his "legitimate" alternate account can raise hell in contentious and disputatious subject areas, and his primary account can merrily edit without suffering any consequences, or scrutiny from other editors. BMK (talk) 03:12, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- Since anything the Arbitrators say here is simply advisory in nature, and since CypherPunkyBrewster has outed his other identity ([2]), perhaps this ought to be closed. BMK (talk) 22:13, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
I note for the record that admin Swarm has rev del'd or oversighted the self-identification I referred to above, I'm not sure under what theory. BMK (talk) 05:10, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
@Rich Farmbrough: There is no reason to "rejoice in one's own cleverness" when the master account discloses their identity and then attempts to deny it, instead of simply standing mute. Seeing hyprocrisy such as that brings joy to nobody. BMK (talk) 16:52, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Statement Rich Farmbrough (CPB)
This has always seemed to me an invidious limitation of legitimate socks. If someone wants (for whatever reason) to use different accounts for different subject areas, then to suggest that those accounts be banned from "project space" discussion is not useful. Certainly crossover should be minimised. I have always imagined that this was an unintentional broadening of the proscription regarding creation of false impressions of support.
Of course that is a matter for the community, not the committee, though their comments would undoubtedly have some weight.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:00, 8 October 2015 (UTC).
- Addendum
This is a clarification request about:
- A previous ruling
- Opinion on policy
Clearly if it constituted trolling and was also deemed not useful, then the Committee would be very likely to speedy close it one way or another - and in the very unlikely event that the trolling nature was obscure, posting evidence to that effect would be legitimate.
However this seems a perfectly good faith question - and the fact that there is difference of opinion, and legitimate hemming and hawing from respected editors indicates that it is one that needs to be taken seriously.
In this context neither attempted outing nor tarring the interlocutor with the brush "climate change denialist" are necessarily useful.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 15:58, 12 October 2015 (UTC).
Salvio - I think NE Ent is perfectly correct. Editing while blocked is of course blockable, and generally leads to block extensions. It would certainly verge on self-outing if a block of the alternate account/extension of block resulted in people putting two and two together. Of course there would still be no need for anyone to, rejoicing in their own cleverness, comment on the identity of the main account. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:16, 12 October 2015 (UTC).
Statement by JzG
CypherPunkyBrewster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) is an account apparently created to advance the cause of climate change denial. Given the arbitration cases in that are already (both American Politics and Climate change), it would seem like a really bad idea to let this alternate account edit in project space. Guy (Help!) 21:21, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
Answer from NE Ent
If one account gets blocked, the editor simply doesn't use other when the block is in place. NE Ent 19:42, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Callanecc
The way I've handled the main account blocked and alt account issue is leaving the alt account unblocked, then if it evades the block on the master's account blocking it for block evasion (without saying more) or asking another admin (a CU when it happened) to block the alt account. That way the two blocks are either separated by time, or, even better, by different blocking admins. If you wanted to block both accounts for the duration of the block the same principle applies, one admin blocks the main account and another blocks the alt account (with a different, but similar block summary). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:04, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Statement by EdJohnston
The editor is asking a long string of hypothetical questions. Some of them are brainteasers and not without interest. But the editor has not identified any special hardship that causes them to need relief from the sockpuppet policy. Since there is no valid grievance here there is nothing to adjudicate. My suggestion is that Arbcom should close this request with no action. Changes in policy can be proposed elsewhere. EdJohnston (talk) 02:16, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Privatemusings: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Privatemusings: Arbitrator views and discussion
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As Rich Farmbrough says, this is a matter of the sockpuppetry/alternate accounts policy, but it was also brought up in the Privatemusings case. The idea behind it, I think, is quite clear. Some editors, if they, for example, edit articles on sexuality, politics, or other "hot button" areas, may not want those edits to be associated with their main account. Provided that the main and alternate account keep strictly clear of editing in the same area, and the alternate account isn't being used to behave badly or otherwise avoid scrutiny, that is permitted. But the alternate account is not to be used in areas outside of article editing. Article editing, in my view, would generally be composed of the article and article talk spaces, any dispute resolution processes directly related to those articles such as mediation if you're reasonably a party to such a process, and other areas directly related to article content editing such as featured article/good article/DYK candidacies related to articles edited by the alternate account. So at least in my view, it wouldn't be entirely bound to a given namespace. Rather, it is bound to a purpose, content editing. It would not, therefore, include discussions of project policy, requesting sanctions against other editors, or other such internal processes. Nor would it allow general participation in dispute resolution or audited content processes when not related to articles the alternate account is working on. The editor would need to pick a single primary account to use in such internal discussions, and use only that account for them. If you'd prefer that the primary account not be associated with such discussions, your option would be to avoid participating in them.
For your specific hypothetical scenarios, then: In an ArbCom case, the alternate account should be used only if it is a named party. If you'd like to jump in on a case you're not a named party to, use your primary account. (If the alternate account is a named party, it would be wise to inform the Committee privately of the situation.) AN(I) and other administrative boards, generally not (though I personally wouldn't care if you reported blatant vandals to AIV with it.) Content discussion boards like RSN, NPOVN, etc., yes, so long as the discussion there is directly related to the alternate account's edits. So, discussing content yes, discussing editors no. For your third question, "disclosure" in this sense would mean publicly and clearly disclosing what primary account the alternate account is linked to (you can see my public terminal account for what that looks like), not just disclosing that it is an alternate. I think your fourth question is answered by the above. Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:11, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
- @Beyond My Ken: You bring up some additional good points. In the case that an alternate account is engaging in poor or sanctionable behavior, I would see it as entirely justifiable for an administrator to indef the alternate account as a "bad hand" sock. Alternate accounts are not meant to engage in poor behavior without that reflecting on the primary account, and the sockpuppetry policy already forbids that type of misuse. The conduct of the alternate account must be absolutely above reproach. So far as areas like Gamergate where editing restrictions apply, if the alternate account doesn't meet the requirements to edit there and isn't clearly and publicly linked to an account that does, well then, that account can't be used to edit there. Admins need to be able to verify that the editor is eligible to edit there; a vague handwave that "Oh, I have a different account that does meet the requirements" doesn't cut it. Nor is private disclosure and verification in that instance. Even when feasible, that would be too much of a timesink. Seraphimblade Talk to me 11:13, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- My interpretation of current policy is as follows:
- Q1: In cases where I have had no prior interactions with anyone named in an arbcom case and had never edited the pages being discussed is using my alternate account to make a statement in an arbcom case a legitimate use of an alternate account?
- No. Participating in "discussions internal to the project" on an alternative account is explicitly prohibited by WP:SOCK, and ArbCom cases qualify.
- Q2: Same question, but for ANI, RS noticeboard, NPOV noticeboard, AIAV, COI noticeboard, etc.
- Same as above; these are internal to the project.
- Q3: What, exactly, are undisclosed alternative accounts? Is this account "disclosed" by way of my disclosing that it is an alternative account, or do I have to name my main account?
- No. Publicly disclosed alternative accounts are accounts that are identified by name and clearly linked to the main account. For example, if User:Foo stated clearly that they had registered the account User:Foo(public) for use on unsecured networks, it would not be a breach of policy for them to comment on internal discussions, as this account would be clearly linked to the primary account. Simply stating that an account is an alt is not sufficient. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:50, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- Q4: What, exactly are "discussions internal to the project" and/or "edits to project space"? Are we talking about namespaces here, and if so, which ones?
- I'm hesitant to say concretely that alternate accounts can only edit the Main and article talk namespaces, because there are plenty of exceptions. I think Seraphimblade is correct to instead identify edits that are not directly related to improving article content as inappropriate.
- Q1: In cases where I have had no prior interactions with anyone named in an arbcom case and had never edited the pages being discussed is using my alternate account to make a statement in an arbcom case a legitimate use of an alternate account?
I do think there is an interesting issue here, though. People who have accounts that are clearly traceable to real-world identities may not be comfortable participating in situations like the Gamergate case, where there is a real risk that people will try to retaliate. These people are effectively barred from participating in these discussions, as alternate accounts cannot be used in projectspace discussions even when used to protect privacy. The only real way for a user to get around this is a WP:Clean start, which comes with its own host of problems. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:50, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
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- Sorry if that was unclear. You would not be able to "clean start" with an alternative account—you would need to abandon the primary account in this hypothetical. GorillaWarfare (talk) 02:13, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
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- My thoughts on this are essentially the same as Seraphimblade's. One way to allow alternate accounts used for the purposes of protecting privacy to participate in internal discussions would be to allow disclosure to the Arbitration Committee (possibly with some safeguards to prevent abuse of this). However, this would require amending both the sockpuppetry policy and the Privatemusings case. I would be amenable to the latter, but only if there is a community consensus for the former at an RfC or equivalent. Until that happens though, alternate accounts that are not publicly disclosed may not participate in arbitration cases, etc. to which they are not a party and that are unrelated to article content they are working on. Thryduulf (talk) 09:36, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- Generally speaking, I tend to agree with my colleagues, with one exception: for me, alternative accounts disclosed to ArbCom cannot be considered "undisclosed alternative accounts" for the purposes of WP:SOCK. Then again, this is only my opinion and we are being asked to clarify a policy, rather than one of our decisions, so I don't know how much weight our collective opinions carry here. Salvio Let's talk about it! 10:57, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- If an editor has good reasons to desire to participate in an ArbCom case with an alternative account, he can try sending us an e-mail, explaining those reasons to us and if we're persuaded, we may grant an exception. That doesn't need an RfC.
It would seem reasonable in that case to block both accounts, but how to do that without revealing my real-world identity? [...] So how do we handle that situation? I'll have to think about this a little more before I can give you an answer... Salvio Let's talk about it! 19:35, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- If an editor has good reasons to desire to participate in an ArbCom case with an alternative account, he can try sending us an e-mail, explaining those reasons to us and if we're persuaded, we may grant an exception. That doesn't need an RfC.
- It is important to understand that principles reflect policy and generally-accepted best practices at the time they were written; principles are not in-and-of-themselves binding if community norms or policies change after the fact. It is not clear to me that any action is required on this matter. LFaraone 19:40, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
- Belatedly getting around to this. I agree that there's nothing here for us to do, although a change in policy might require us to look again at Privatemusings. Doug Weller (talk) 12:37, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
Amendment request: Lightbreather
Initiated by Hullaballoo Wolfowitz at 15:26, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- Lightbreather (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- Information about amendment request
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- That an exception be made to Lightbreather's sanctions, allowing her to respond on-wiki to on-wiki criticisms, paralleling the exception advocated for Eric Corbett, making an exception to his topic ban allowing him to respond on-wiki to off-wiki criticisms
Statement by Hullaballoo Wolfowitz
Lightbreather has been subjected to innuendo, aspersions, derogatory comments and personal attacks in connection with the discussion of the recent block and unblock of Eric Corbett. There is strong community sentiment that, despite his topic ban, Corbett should be allowed to comment on-wiki about comments and accusations made against him off-wiki. Given that no one was been sanctioned or warned for their attacks on Lightbreather, and no comments have apparently been removed or suppressed, it is only fair that she be afforded the same opportunity to respond on-wiki to on-wiki attacks and criticism, especially since much of that commentary rests on assertions made without evidence. It is anomalous that such comments may be freely made about Lightbreather while statements made about the male editor (not Corbett, to avoid any confusion) accused with evidence of sexually harassing Lightbreather on-wiki and off-wiki have regularly been expunged. Therefore, an exception should be made to Lightbreather's sanctions affording her a decent, reasonable, and adequate opportunity to respond to these sustained on-wiki comments and aspersions. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 15:26, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
@John Carter and Fæ: Are you arguing that female editor Lightbreather needs to ask for equal treatment when male editor Corbett didn't have to ask for the exception that seems to be being made, and the male on-wiki sexual harasser didn't have to ask for suppression of criticism and comments? Do some editors receive such grace as a matter of course, while others must go hat in hand to beg for fair treatment? Are some of the animals here less equal than others? The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 16:23, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
@Seraphimblade: This is not a ban appeal. This is a request for consistent treatment, which would not have been necessary if Wikipedia had been willing to afford the same rights and protections that other editors enjoy. Being site-banned does not paint a target on Lightbreather and authorize free fire with no ability to return it. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 19:05, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
@John Carter: How can you maintain that I have introduced concepts like "male" and "female" into a matter that already involved serious sexual harassment? The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 19:05, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Lightbreather
Statement by John Carter
This looks very much like a bit of a nonstarter to me. Lightbreather is currently not even able to edit her user talk page. That makes it extremely difficult for any statement by her to be presented anywhere, except, perhaps, by e-mail to the committee. That being the case, it would presumably be reasonable for her to e-mail the committee to request this herself. Also, honestly, it would be useful to know whether Lightbreather had any intention of returning, which, without a visible comment from her, is at best theoretical, at least to those of us who don't see the presumptive e-mail she might send. Lastly, she was site-banned in July of this year, and as per WP:UNBAN she might not be capable of even appealing that ban until next July. All that taken into account, even given the presumption of the best of intentions by the person making the request, this very much seems to me to be something that would require input which can't be made, at least visibly, here.
Having said all that, if there is a basis for believing this individual has allegations here she wishes to address, it might, maybe, be possible for the Wikipedia:Signpost to interview her, and maybe others, regarding the current brouhaha about the Atlantic article, which I am going to presume is the proximate subject of discussion here. In fact, I even suggested such coverage myself at Jimbo's talk page recently. John Carter (talk) 15:47, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
- In response to HW, I am saying nothing of the kind, I think a reading of my comment above would demonstrate that, and I rather strongly object to the presumption that I might be. And I find the introduction of "male" v. "female" arguments nothing less than appalling. Lightbreather, for better or worse, is sitebanned for a year. Eric is not. "Sitebanned" vs. "not sitebanned" is the more appropriate differentiation here. John Carter (talk) 16:26, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
- In response to GoodDay below, Lightbreather had her ability to edit her own user talk page at the same time as the site ban was imposed. John Carter (talk) 16:33, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
- @Hullaballoo Wolfowitz: you introduced them to this particular discussion, which honestly is about the lifting of a ban of a sitebanned editor, not about anything about men or women. And that editor was not banned because of any issues related to sexual abuse, but rather gross misconduct in the topic of gun control and still-private evidence of WP:OUTING, which is at best tangentially related to any issues of sexual abuse. By so doing, it could reasonably be seen that you are attempting to basically distract from the more central issue, about lifting a siteban implemented on the basis of gross misconduct, to a marginally related issue, that the individual involved is a woman. That woman has recently taken advantage of her ban by providing information for a rather embarrassingly bad article off-site. And you did it on the basis of that individual being subject to "innuendo, aspersions, derogatory comments and personal attacks in connection with the discussion of the recent block and unblock of Eric Corbett," seemingly ignoring that Eric Corbett has been subjected to outright lies in the same article, and her own history of OUTing others, which, honestly, are probably more important. The central issue is about the lifting of the siteban, not the gender of the person sitebanned. Having said that, I would support with some reluctance lifting the talk page ban, with perhaps the understanding that if the individual in question abuses the privilege of editing that page that doing so will almost certainly be considered a factor in any appeals to lift the broader siteban. John Carter (talk) 18:54, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Fæ
This amendment would only be relevant if Lightbreather has written to Arbcom expressing an interest in correcting the record and/or expressing a viewpoint from their experience.
Though it may be felt that Lightbreather is free to email Arbcom with any issue, at the same time is easy to understand why this would not be a realistic process to follow to have corrections or commentary posted on-wiki. Should Arbcom be minded to accept this, I recommend the parties consider taking advantage of a trusted interlocutor, perhaps an interested Arbcom member. This would reduce the chances of a "misspeaking" moment resulting in iterations of further controversy. --Fæ (talk) 16:05, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
- @HW, I have made no statement on whether there is equal treatment on our projects, in fact I would not be comfortable expressing my uncensored views in this place... My comments are limited to the request made above and are based on my experience of relying on an interlocutor when being part of an Arbcom case. --Fæ (talk) 18:23, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
Statement by GoodDay
Having gone through a 1-year siteban, I believe (or remember) one is only allowed to post on one's own talkpage & only then, about one's siteban. AFAIK, Eric Corbett is not sitebanned & so there's a difference. GoodDay (talk) 16:29, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
Response to JC, I recommend that LB's talkpage privillages be restored. Although again, as I understand it, LB would be limited there to discussing her siteban. GoodDay (talk) 16:37, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
Question for HW - Are you making this request per Lightbreather's wishes & consent? GoodDay (talk) 19:09, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
Recommend arbitrators reject this request. It appears the request hasn't been made via proxy & the requesting editor seems to have abandoned it. GoodDay (talk) 15:42, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
This post at Lighbreather's talkpage doesn't quite make sense to me. I can't tell if HW's is getting consent from LB to make this request or not. GoodDay (talk) 02:05, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
Statement by MarkBernstein
In light of many comments that have been made on wiki in recent days, this is an obvious and necessary step; I am ashamed that I did not propose it sooner and thank the proposer for realizing its urgent necessity. Many editors assert that this right of reply is a matter of Wikipedia custom or one of human decency; until and unless ArbCom definitively refutes those contentions, this is demanded by fairness and equity. It is imperative, moreover, that this motion be granted promptly, in light of active discussion in the case request, Signpost, and elsewhere; fairness delayed in this case would indeed be fairness denied.
The motion should not merely permit LightBreather to participate but should actively invite her participation and offer the committee's assistance, as needed, to facilitate this. MarkBernstein (talk) 16:42, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
Some commenters here and in the Case Requests page have denounced Lightbreather and @GorillaWarfare: for granting an interview to The Atlantic, claiming that Wikipedians should not give interviews about Wikipedia. Before sanctioning Lightbreather for doing this, ArbCom would have to sanction itself, since it not only granted an interview but actually distributed a press announcement during the Gamergate case. Wikipedia is not Fight Club: the first rule of Wikipedia is not that editors may not talk about Wikipedia. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:03, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
In light of repeated calls to censure Lightbreather for granting an interview to The Atlantic, which constitute a large portion of the so-called evidence in this motion -- I believe we require an affirmative ruling from ArbCom indicating whether or not Wikipedians may be punished for discussing Wikipedia in books, newspapers, or journals. Otherwise, Wikipedians (and outside observers) reading the evidence will conclude that commenting on Wikipedia to the press will be punished by its arbitration committee, especially if the committee or foundation dislikes the way those comments are used. MarkBernstein (talk) 14:42, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
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- @Thryduulf: @Euryalus: With regard to "why anyone thinks [it] is a possibility" that someone would be censured for granting an interview, see "evidence" sections above by Rich Farmbrough and Mangoe, and statements in what we're now calling Arbitration Enforcement 2 [6] Case Request phase by Black Kite and many others. Clearing this up unambiguously is clearly desirable, lest the many calls to censure LB and GorillaWarfare in this matter be taken by the general public to reflect the community’s position or Arbcom’s acquiescence. MarkBernstein (talk) 16:06, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
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Statement by Carrite
It would be simply unkind to refuse Lightbreather the courtesy of being able to gravedance on-wiki at the time of her figurative execution of her arch-nemesis. Anything that can be done to liven the festivities by rolling back editing restrictions upon her or any other banned editors should be done most expeditiously. This is a fantastic idea and hopefully a lasting precedent for future ArbCom circuses... Carrite (talk) 00:04, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Mangoe
Lightbreather has been plenty free with responses in the comments on the Atlantic article, so I don't see why we have to reopen a venue just for that. And as far as I can see (not wanting to read everything from the old case) this is pretty much an invitation to bring the dramafest from Disqus over to here. We are here to write a reference work, not to provide a forum for these discussions. Mangoe (talk) 13:48, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Rich Farmbrough (LB)
While I would welcome Lightbreather back to editing, I have concerns that they have been unable to drop the stick.
Lightbreather is solely their Wikipedia identity and they have left the project several times (as well as - and before - being banned) claiming to be here only for the sake of the the ArbCom case.
However they have continued the dispute off-wiki through a dedicated website and Twitter account. Enablers on-wiki have assisted promulgation of inaccurate narrative, in support of doubtless worthy goals.
This is not, historically, a new tactic - however it is one that is abhorrent to most encyclopaedists. Truth may be the first casualty in war, but if it is a casualty in building this encyclopaedia, we loose all credibility and may as well put fire sale signs on the servers.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 14:26, 30 October 2015 (UTC).
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Lightbreather: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Lightbreather: Arbitrator views and discussion
- Decline. This has not, in any way to my knowledge, been requested by Lightbreather, and we don't consider third-party ban appeals. Seraphimblade Talk to me 17:41, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
- Recuse, as this is directly related to the Eric Corbett discussions from which I am also recusing. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:27, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
- Decline per Seraphimblade. Also, GoodDay is correct when he says that the only reason a blocked or banned editor may edit their talk page is to seek clarification of or appeal their block/ban. Thryduulf (talk) 21:38, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
- @MarkBernstein:. Arbcom has not, and is not proposing to, sanction Lightbreather for giving an interview. Thryduulf (talk) 21:41, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
- @MarkBernstein: It's no different to a self-published source - if they out or harass another Wikipedia editor then obviously sanctions, up to and including a ban, will be considered. If they merely express an opinion, however controversial or unpopular, then there will not be a reason to consider sanctions. In all cases though the full circumstances will be considered, and nobody is going to get sanctioned because someone else misquoted them for example (although if the misquoting is deliberately intended to harass, the person doing the misquoting may themselves face sanction). To be explicit about the case in hand: Nobody will be sanctioned for what they said in this piece in The Atlantic. Thryduulf (talk) 15:39, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
- Tangentially related but worth saying here in case it comes up, a Wikipedia editor should not quote themselves in a content namespace (no matter their expertise or the reliability of the source) without discussing it first on the talk page (or centralised discussion space if appropriate). Thryduulf (talk) 15:39, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
- Decline - talkpage access is only restored under certain circumstances, and offering evidence in case pages related to other editors is not one of them. If anyone (including banned editors) want to send evidence to the committee via email on any current case relevant to them, they can do so. Separately, anyone who uses case pages to engage in personal abuse of other editors is likely to be sanctioned for it. And +1 to Thryduulf's second comment above - to the extent that this was a genuine query, there is not the faintest prospect of an arbcom sanction for anyone who offered their opinions in the Atlantic article. I really struggle to see why anyone thinks this is a possibility. -- Euryalus (talk) 15:10, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
-
- @MarkBernstein: Hopefully the responses in this section help address the concern. -- Euryalus (talk) 19:08, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
- I would be prepared to reopen the question of modifying their sanction. Asa reminder, the vote for banning her was 8-4, not 12-0 or 13-0 as for most other votes in that case. I was in the majority, but due to more recent private information to the committee, I'd now support modification or even withdrawal of the site ban. DGG ( talk ) 00:36, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- Decline. Euryalus puts it well. Doug Weller (talk) 12:40, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
Amendment request: Palestine-Israel articles
Initiated by Jeppiz at 19:01, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- Jeppiz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- Information about amendment request
-
- Extending ARBPIA to cover Jews and Palestinians
Statement by Jeppiz
I believe neither Jews nor Palestinians to be covered by WP:ARBPIA, and I'd suggest that amending this situation may benefit the project and discourage much edit warring. Having watched both articles for a long time, I notice that Jews (and to some extent Palestinians) see quite intense disputes. As the edit history of Jews show, there have already been over 20 reverts in November alone. Below user:Debresser asks for examples, so a short non-exhaustive list from the last days [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12]. These disputes are never about Jewish culture in 17th century Poland or Palestinian culture in 17th century Palestine, but very often about the origins of both peoples, along the lines of "who was there first", "do modern Jews descent from ancient Jews", "are modern Palestinians the descendants of ancient Jews" etc. These questions are directly linked to the Israel-Palestine conflict, as both sides try to up their own claim to the land by invoking history. Furthermore, the most active editors engaged in these disputes are almost always the same few editors engaged in other ARBPIA-covered articles about the conflict. As the disputes at Jews and Palestinians are directly linked to the area covered by WP:ARBPIA, and see much more conflict than many articles currently covered, I suggest ARBPIA be extended to these two articles. It would benefit everybody involved, except a handful of people who frequently revert, and would benefit the whole project.
No individual user is concerned, so I have not named anyone, but I will post a short information notice at the talk pages of both Jews and Palestinians.
Statement by Debresser
The nominator of this amendment first proposed this at Jews, claiming that discussions about the origins of Jews should be subject to the 1RR rule, because often the issue is raised in connection with the IP-conflict. I will comment only on the merits, or more precisely the lack thereof, of this proposal in regard to the Jews article.I have no clear opinion regarding the Palestinians article, although I think that the issue is much stronger on that article than it is on the Jews article.
I think the claim of the nominator, which is not backed up by any links to discussions either on Wikipedia or outside of it, is incorrect. In addition, I think that the proposed measure is not proportionate, even if the claim were correct. Ergo I feel strongly that the proposed 1RR restriction should not be considered. My arguments are as follows.
- I have not often seen discussions about the origins of the Jewish people in connection with the IP-conflict, neither on Wikipedia nor in the real world. I am not saying it never happens, but not as often as the nominator makes it seem (without giving even one example).
- The cases in which the origins of the Jews are discussed without connection to the IP-conflict are many times more numerous than the cases in which such discussion is related to the IP-conflict. It would therefore not be fair to put all discussions regarding the origins of the Jews under a restriction that applies only to a minority of the cases.
- The article Jews is so much more than just the question of the origins of the Jews, that it would be completely disproportionate the put the whole article under a 1RR restriction because of that.
Statement by Musashiaharon
I agree with Debresser that putting Jews under 1RR is disproportionate.
In addition to Debresser's points, I'd like to add that overall the discussion seems pretty civil to me, and I see no reason to stop WP:AGF, certainly not to the point of imposing 1RR. I don't think the intensity and nature of the discussion merits it. Jeppiz himself links to my only counter-revert, where I specifically note that the discussion had a three-day gap of silence in it after I requested an explanation of a previous revert. My request was answered soon afterwards. 1RR is unnecessary.
Statement by Nishidani
I don't think the article Jews should be placed under ARBPIA IR restrictions, while I think this should apply to Palestinians. I gave my reasons here. That said, Jeppiz does have a serious point however. It is absolutely impossible to discuss Jewish origins on Wikipedia in a rational, rigorously high RS source based manner. One is just over-ruled, as are the relevant sources and the reason is that the definition is perceived by a majority of editors as one which must contain a political statement about Israel and the Law of Return, meaning that whatever sources say to the contrary, the definition of a Jew must state that (s)he comes from ancestors who lived in Palestine, which is total nonsense.. But this, which relates to one or two sentences in the lead, should not translate into making the whole article, which has nothing to do with the I/P conflict, lie under an ARBPIA sanction. Nishidani (talk) 21:54, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Palestine-Israel_articles: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Palestine-Israel_articles: Arbitrator views and discussion
- Decline' Excessive--and inadequate to deal with the key statedproblem on origin of Jews, which couldb e fought equally well on other pages. DGG ( talk ) 00:21, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- Decline. There are two separate topics here, "origin of Jews" and "origin of Palestinians", neither of which are not part of the Arab-Israel dispute, and which form only small parts of the noted articles so extending the existing discretionary sanctions in this manner is a poor fit. With no evidence that prior dispute resolution has been sought, let alone tried and failed, I don't see this as something that Arbcom should be involved with at this stage. Thryduulf (talk) 17:02, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- Decline - too soon to consider. Doug Weller (talk) 12:41, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
Clarification request: Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )
Initiated by Callanecc at 06:34, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
- Callanecc (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- Beyond My Ken (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- [diff of notification Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )]
- [diff of notification Beyond My Ken]
Statement by Callanecc
I am filing this request here as an uninvolved administrator in response this AE request. Sorry for another job for you all to do (hopefully this can be resolved one way or the other without a motion) but there does seem to be some uncertainty regarding whether this edit (for clarity, this was the series of edits made by RAN, before the first edit by someone else) breaches RAN's prohibition on creating articles.
So the question is does turning a redirect into an article count as "Creating any articles or draft articles in any namespace" (from the restriction as modified last month)?
Whether or not the Committee considers this possible violation worthy of sanctions or not I believe it's worth clarifying that point for everyone's benefit. Thanks, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:34, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )
Statement by Beyond My Ken
I don't have anything much to add to what I'd already posted on the AE Request. As Callanec says, I contend that although they are both pages, a redirect is not an article – see How to edit a redirect or convert it into an article on WP:Redirects, where the word "convert" is a clear indication that a redirect is not an article, but must be changed in some fundamental way in order to become one; see also Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion, in which there are different rules for the deletion of articles and for the deletion of redirects; and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion vs. Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion. By converting a redirect to an article, RAN created the article, violating his ban. Another editor has proposed that the redirect was an article from the time it was created (by me). I reject this contention, but if it is true, then RAN has violated his ban by creating numerous redirects, as can be seen here. BMK (talk) 07:43, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Andreas Philopater
I'm not sure how appropriate it is that I speak up (I have nothing to do with this), but this is a case where I think "no harm, no foul" can safely be applied, as long as there is clarity moving forward as to an edit of this type (article creation vs page creation) being subject to the ban or not.--Andreas Philopater (talk) 09:44, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Bencherlite
FWIW, the act of turning a redirect into an article was regarded by Arbs in October 2013 as the creation of an article for infobox restriction purposes at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes#Arbitrator views and discussion (there may be a better link to be found to more a pertinent discussion than that). In other words, if X is restricted from adding infoboxes to articles save for those articles that X has created, X can turn a redirect into an article and add an infobox without breaching the restriction. If Y is restricted from creating an article, then it would seem to follow that Y is not allowed to turn a redirect into an article. BencherliteTalk 15:11, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Rich Farmbrough (RAN)
Committee should clarify that this will be considered a violation in the future. Then take time for a motion to remove the restriction completely. There is no benefit to it. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 20:15, 9 November 2015 (UTC).
- Thryduulf What purpose? All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:53, 9 November 2015 (UTC).
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): Arbitrator views and discussion
- For the purposes of RAN's restrictions, changing a redirect to an article is the same as creating an article from scratch meaning this was a violation. As there are almost no occasions on en.wp where this is not regarded as creating an article, I am more inclined to see this as an intentional gaming of the restriction than I am to see this as a genuine misunderstanding - however I invite RAN to convince me otherwise if he wishes. Thryduulf (talk) 17:25, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- To hopefully prevent a future requests for clarification:
- If a page was previously an article (written by someone other than RAN) but was redirected without consensus, RAN may revert that redirection, but he may not completely rewrite the article (i.e. it must remain based on a revision prior to redirection).
- Completely rewriting a page such that almost no previous material remains and/or the topic is changed does count as a violation. Thryduulf (talk) 17:25, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Rich Farmbrough: We will not be amending or removing this restriction without an appeal by RAN. The purpose of the restriction was explained and discussed when it was enacted, and again when it was recently amended - that you disagree with the committee about whether it will achieve it's purpose does not change this. Thryduulf (talk) 22:42, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yes it is. --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 20:20, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- With respect to what counts as starting an article, I agree totally with Thryduulf ;
- With regard to asking us to modify our decisions. I think anyone can ask. We may make mistakes, what we say may become superseded by events, there may be factors we had not taken into consideration, or we may simply be well advised to reconsider. The idea that we might do something wrong and not want to fix it because the wrong person asks us is totally alien to my sense of justice, but it is unfortunately true that most of the current committee seems to feel otherwise. DGG ( talk ) 05:42, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- Changing a redirect into an article is creating an article, unless RAN is as one scenario above suggests simply undoing a redirect made to an article without consensus. Doug Weller (talk) 12:46, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- A redirect is not an article, it is a navigational aid with no content. Changing it into an article is, therefore, creating an article. Seraphimblade Talk to me 14:17, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
Motions
Motion: Removal of Unused Sanctions
- For this motion there are 11 active arbitrators, not counting 2 who are inactive and 1 who has abstained or recused, so 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Every so often, it becomes reasonable to terminate sanctions that are no longer necessary,
- Remedy 1 of the Lapsed Pacifist 2 case is rescinded;
- Remedy 2 of the Mantanmoreland case is rescinded;
- Remedy 1 of the Waterboarding case is rescinded;
- Remedy 1 of the Vivaldi case is rescinded;
- Nothing in this motion provides grounds for appeal of remedies or restrictions imposed while article probations for the foregoing cases were in force. Such appeals or requests to lift or modify such sanctions may be made under the same terms as any other appeal;
- In the event that disruptive editing resumes in any of these topic-areas, a request to consider reinstating discretionary sanctions in that topic-area may be made on the clarifications and amendments page.
- Support
- --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 23:05, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
Yunshui 雲水 11:38, 23 September 2015 (UTC)Clerk note: This arbitrator has resigned. L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 22:17, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
- Per Yunshi's comment below, I think the small risk that this will flare up without the threat of sanctions is small enough and easily countered enough (cf our recent motion regarding Longevity) that we can take it. Thryduulf (talk) 15:07, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
- AGK [•] 23:22, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
- Support recision except for Mantanmoreland. It's very old, but let's do nothing to encourage its return. Editor misconduct in the other three areas can be more easily responded to via usual dispute resolution mechanisms. -- Euryalus (talk) 07:33, 1 November 2015 (UTC).
- Support since point 6 makes it possible to restore sanctions without having to go through a full case. Doug Weller (talk) 13:41, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
- DGG ( talk ) 04:36, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
- As the committee retains jurisdiction, these can always be reinstated by motion if the need arises. Roger Davies talk 06:42, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Enough of these have the potential to flare up that I think this is a bad idea. Courcelles (talk) 19:00, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- Salvio Let's talk about it! 14:10, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
- Abstain
- Recuse
Discussion by arbitrators (removal of unused sanctions)
- Proposed --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 23:05, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- I'm going to wait for any community comments before opining here. Thryduulf (talk) 23:22, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- These are all pretty old, and a review of the relevant article histories suggests that they may no longer be needed; however I'm mindful of the fact that the sanctions may be the reason that the articles have been so quiet recently. I'm leaning towards supporting this motion, but like Thryduulf would be happier to wait until a few more opinions are in. Yunshui 雲水 08:33, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
- Sod it, I think the benefits outweigh the risks. The option of reinstatement by request at ARCA does, as Harry points out, make this a reasonably safe gamble. Yunshui 雲水 11:38, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Community comments (removal of unused sanctions)
- Noting Courcelles' objection, but I would have thought that point 6 (allowing the sanctions to be reinstated by request at ARCA if necessary) covers everyone in the event that disruption returns. Some topic areas won't quieten down until real-world events do (the obvious example being Israel-Palestine), but we shouldn't keep discretionary sanctions lingering around where they're no longer necessary or useful. The alerts and warning notices that editors see whenever they edit an affected article potentially deter valuable contributions and give an impression of a dispute that is no longer there. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:33, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
- Given the state of the US and its jaunts into the middle-east (as well as its treatment of Muslims at home) object to the waterboarding being lifted (no comment on the others). 'Closely related pages' effectively means anything involving state-sanctioned torture. Totally cant see how THAT might flare up... Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:23, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
- But the last sanction imposed pursuant to a remedy in that case was nearly five years ago (by strange coincidence, I was the admin imposing it), and the sanctions can always be re-imposed if necessary. Besides, most subjects to do with waterboarding as it relates to the United States' foreign policy would probably be covered by the discretionary sanctions on American politics. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:07, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
- Well I would generally follow the school of thought that states 'Its calm because of the sanctions'. However you are right American Politics would (probably, someone will argue otherwise no doubt) cover any US based torture problems. Sadly the US does not have a monopoly in torture. Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:20, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
- But the last sanction imposed pursuant to a remedy in that case was nearly five years ago (by strange coincidence, I was the admin imposing it), and the sanctions can always be re-imposed if necessary. Besides, most subjects to do with waterboarding as it relates to the United States' foreign policy would probably be covered by the discretionary sanctions on American politics. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:07, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
- I hate to keep bringing up essentially the same thing every time, but once again we have a problem (a minor one this time, but entirely avoidable) this time caused by someone referring to the "last" item on a list that is still having items added and removed. This small issue and a number of large issues to come can be avoided by the simple idea of designing procedures and sticking to them instead of winging it every time. To be specific, in this particular situation, anyone commenting on a list item should refer to "item number 6" instead of "the last item. Anyone removing an item should replace it with "6. (removed) instead of deleting it and letting a new item take the #6 slot. Please Arbom, there are members of the community who are experts at designing these sorts of procedures. Let us help. We won't step on your authority and you will get to approve all procedures. Whether because of lack of skills, lack of time, or lack of interest, you really suck at this. Just give the word and I will start recruiting experts and drafting procedures (on-wiki, so you can comment and veto at any point in the process). --Guy Macon (talk)
-
Re "easily corrected"; it was corrected while I composed the above. My point about procedures still stands though. If anyone wants to dispute this, I can document previous problems that weren't so easy to fix. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:19, 27 September 2015 (UTC)- @Guy Macon: What are you talking about? You are the first person to edit this page in over two days --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 03:27, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
- Oops. When I went back to look at the page I looked at "Motion: Removal of Unused Sanctions" (which doesn't have the problem) instead of "Motion: Overlap of Sanctions" (which does have the problem -- in the oppose section) and assumed it had been fixed. Sorry for the error. Does anyone wish to comment on my offer? --Guy Macon (talk) 03:59, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, I didn't think so. See you next time the lack of procedures causes a problem, and I hope it is a minor problem like this one. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:25, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
- Even after your post above, I still do not understand what your comment relates to. Thryduulf (talk) 12:31, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
- Regardless of the merits of the numbering in this motion, you'd like us to comment on your view that Arbcoms (now and in the past) kind of suck at concise and accurate wording. You're completely correct. At risk of sounding like the tedious bureaucrat that I actually am, there is a reason for administrative writing and this is it - for precision, and to avoid doubt when the material is read later by people other than those who drafted it. Whenever there is a badly worded motion, please feel free to offer suggested changes. If they're good, the Committee should adopt them (or explain why not). -- Euryalus (talk) 07:40, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
- Even after your post above, I still do not understand what your comment relates to. Thryduulf (talk) 12:31, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, I didn't think so. See you next time the lack of procedures causes a problem, and I hope it is a minor problem like this one. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:25, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
- Oops. When I went back to look at the page I looked at "Motion: Removal of Unused Sanctions" (which doesn't have the problem) instead of "Motion: Overlap of Sanctions" (which does have the problem -- in the oppose section) and assumed it had been fixed. Sorry for the error. Does anyone wish to comment on my offer? --Guy Macon (talk) 03:59, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
- @Guy Macon: What are you talking about? You are the first person to edit this page in over two days --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 03:27, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
@L235: Can you clarify if Yunshui explicitly removed his support for this motion? He was active at the time of his vote and comments. I don't see why his retirement would affect his position on the matter. Mike V • Talk 23:18, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Mike V: I was not told if Yunshui explicitly removed his support. However, I was explicitly directed to strike his votes on all matters and recalculate majorities by an arbitrator on clerks-l. Thanks, L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 23:21, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
Motion: BASC Reform
- For this motion there are 12 active arbitrators, not counting 2 who are inactive, so 7 support or oppose votes are a majority.
- Support
-
- The recent Ban appeal RFC is pertinant, Roger Davies talk 18:57, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Salvio Let's talk about it! 19:05, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- About time. Doug Weller (talk) 19:06, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- It would be fair to say that BASC is ad hoc at best but the BASC role of arbcom should be limited as outlined above. NativeForeigner Talk 00:43, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Support, though I would also be open to moving appeals of blocks meeting points 1 and 2 to the functionaries and ridding ourselves of this "subcommittee" entirely. GorillaWarfare (talk) 08:59, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Ditto, Roger Davies talk 09:01, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Now prefer the motion below (Motion: BASC disbanded). GorillaWarfare (talk) 11:06, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose
-
- At least temporarily, as the clerks have just now been told to go and spread the news of this motion. Also, I don't understand "reforming" something that does not exist in practice, and has never existed in my years on the Committee. Better to just flat out abolish BASC, and direct whatever appeals are left under arbcom's remit directly to the committee proper. Courcelles (talk) 19:41, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- This is needed but premature. I've seen no evidence that the UTRS volunteers are aware of this proposal to increase their workload and have the chance to prepare for it. The RFC closure included "a separate discussion should be held on if/what conditions may be applied by the UTRS-reviewing admin." So far as I am aware this discussion has not happened, which if true means that there is no mandate from the community for the UTRS volunteers to actually do anything but unconditionally accept or unconditionally reject an appeal (e.g. they cannot require a minimum period before the next appeal). Thryduulf (talk) 19:53, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Further to the above, it has been pointed out (by email) that the UTRS volunteers have not even agreed to take over this work - that is not to say they are necessarily unwilling, but it is not what they volunteered to do and they have not been asked if they are willing to do it. David Fuchs also makes a good point about this removing a level in the chain of appeals, which is not what was discussed at the RfC. These points strengthen my opinion that this motion is putting the cart before the horse. Thryduulf (talk) 01:21, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Until such a time that the community stops remanding appeals of community bans to the BASC or there is a consensus to not hear appeals of community bans by ArbCom, we should not stop hearing them. There is some upside to having a "court of last resort" for community bans; especially when years have passed but someone does not want to brave the day's waves on ANI. (UTRS is a single admin and can not hear true ban appeals anyways.) I support sending blocks of any lengths back to the community. --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 19:57, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Abstain
-
- Recuse
-
Discussion by arbitrators (BASC Reform)
- BASC does not exist. Appeals are decided by a consensus among whatever arbitrators bother to comment, and this may or may not resemble the published list of BASC members. Courcelles (talk) 19:32, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Um, that's right but the point is that this motion moves appeals of community bans to the community, which is what the RfC suggested and certainly IMHO where they belong. We've been asked to and we've said we would move as much as we can to the community (I certainly supported that when I ran), and this is a good chunk of our time which would be better spent on cases. Doug Weller (talk) 20:19, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Then why are you supporting doing this by reforming the BASC you admit doesn't exist, rather than abolishing the BASC at the same time as divesting the work? Courcelles (talk) 20:53, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Ok, I'll modify that. It works the way you and Beeblebrox says it does. It exists as a mailing list and as a committee set out at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Ban Appeals Subcommittee. You can argue that it isn't a proper subcommittee as that implies a limited membership. I think that the mailing list should still be kept as a separate list, and nothing in this motion stops that from happening. We could I guess rename the list (although I'm not sure the software will allow that and keep the archives), but I don't see the point. The main difference between the proposal and what you seem to want might only be a change from having appeals sent to the BASC list to having appeals sent to our list. Doug Weller (talk) 21:38, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Keep the list if others find it useful for workflow management , but dispense with any pretending that the BASC as a thing exists. Courcelles (talk) 22:51, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- I'm finding this line of reasoning very strange. How ever much you argue around it, the fact remains that BASC is a quasi autonomous subset of ArbCom and it functions (and always has functioned) on that basis. And for as long as it functions, it exists, whether or not it is functioning as intended. (cf. Being and Nothingness) A subcommittee with an ad hoc membership is still a subcommittee. Roger Davies talk 07:10, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Keep the list if others find it useful for workflow management , but dispense with any pretending that the BASC as a thing exists. Courcelles (talk) 22:51, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Ok, I'll modify that. It works the way you and Beeblebrox says it does. It exists as a mailing list and as a committee set out at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Ban Appeals Subcommittee. You can argue that it isn't a proper subcommittee as that implies a limited membership. I think that the mailing list should still be kept as a separate list, and nothing in this motion stops that from happening. We could I guess rename the list (although I'm not sure the software will allow that and keep the archives), but I don't see the point. The main difference between the proposal and what you seem to want might only be a change from having appeals sent to the BASC list to having appeals sent to our list. Doug Weller (talk) 21:38, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Then why are you supporting doing this by reforming the BASC you admit doesn't exist, rather than abolishing the BASC at the same time as divesting the work? Courcelles (talk) 20:53, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Um, that's right but the point is that this motion moves appeals of community bans to the community, which is what the RfC suggested and certainly IMHO where they belong. We've been asked to and we've said we would move as much as we can to the community (I certainly supported that when I ran), and this is a good chunk of our time which would be better spent on cases. Doug Weller (talk) 20:19, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Salvidrim!: Also in the interests of transparency, I've sent you the following email commenting on yours (which you've quoted) to the Clerks. Thanks for your comments. For information, BASC has always been the forum of last resort so all appeals should always have gone first to UTRS before going to BASC. ("BASC is a last resort, available only if other means of appeal are exhausted.")diff What's more, the motion simply reflects the position that is already set out in the "Guide to appealing blocks".diff Roger Davies talk 06:54, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- WJBscribe and Worm That Turned. New motion posted, Roger Davies talk 11:11, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Community comments (BASC Reform)
- I believe that the motion uses "and" where it should have used "or". --Guy Macon (talk) 19:39, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- It doesn't really make any difference, as the motion is saying that arbcom/BASC will still hear appeals made by this group of editors, and that group of editors. Thryduulf (talk) 19:56, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Precise language is important. If you get it right up front you save a huge amount of time explaining it later. As written, it can be read as requiring that you be a member of both groups of editors or your appeal will not be heard. Yes, you can decide to use non-standard fleemishes and the reader can still gloork the meaning from the context, but there ix a limit; If too many ot the vleeps are changed, it becomes harder and qixer to fllf what the wethcz is blorping, and evenually izs is bkb longer possible to ghilred frok at wifx. Dnighth? Ngfipht yk ur! Uvq the hhvd or hnnngh. Blorgk? Blorgk! Blorgkity-blorgk!!!! --Guy Macon (talk) 21:23, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- It doesn't really make any difference, as the motion is saying that arbcom/BASC will still hear appeals made by this group of editors, and that group of editors. Thryduulf (talk) 19:56, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Per the community's desire as expressed here is that BASC should be abolished. Retaining it in this role, which shifts its focus to an entirely different area, seems bizarre.
Tranclusion counts for {{OversightBlock}} and {{CheckUser block}} number 205 and span at least eight years. I.e., about 2 possible cases per month. Actual appeals are probably a minority subset of that, thus appeals to the new scope of BASC might be heard once a month. We need a special committee to do something once a month?(struck thanks to Courcelles pointing out other data) The community said abolish BASC. Abolish it. Appeals for oversight or checkuser blocks go to the committee, full stop. Less bureaucracy, less mess. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:58, 11 November 2015 (UTC)- In practice, I don't think BASC ever produced much bureaucracy (time sinks, on the other hand...) Other arbs could chime in on appeals at their leisure. What you're asking for is essentially abolishing a name and task checklist. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 20:01, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- And, also, a BASC appeals only requires three arbs, whereas an arbcom appeal requires a majority of active, non-recused arbs. Salvio Let's talk about it! 20:03, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- (addressing Fuchs) Maybe, but that can be expressed via procedures for appealing to ArbCom, rather than a (in practice) fictitious committee. As noted by others, appeals were routinely heard by one arb, rather than a committee. So, the whole notion that there is a committee to review bans is false. At a place where I used to work, there was a committee that was created to oversee X. Many departments would routinely do X. The departments that tried to do it right tried to go through the committee...which hadn't convened in eight years. This created unneeded bureaucracy, headache and stagnation, waiting for approvals to requests that were never heard. Last I knew, the committee still 'existed'. BASC is in a similar position. It is creating a falsehood, and obliging editors to follow it. ArbCom is free to create whatever procedures it wants to handle its area of remit. But to deliberately create falsehoods that serve to hamper (via increased bureaucracy) rather than enhance the community? Especially when the community has asked for it to be abolished? No. Just no. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:09, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- As a point of order, most uses of those templates are as block reasons in the block log, and those will not show up in transclusion counts. Courcelles (talk) 20:07, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Looking at the last 5000 blocks, fair enough and you are correct. So question; how many appeals does ArbCom get for oversight/checkuser blocks in, say, a month? --Hammersoft (talk) 20:13, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- If memory serves well, five would be a very busy month. Usually less. Courcelles (talk) 20:23, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- And the way BASC works now it mught get that many in a day, or an hour. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:35, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Beeblebrox, I was referring only to checkuserblocks, not general appeals. We never get that flow of checkuserblock appeals, and oversightblocks are exceedingly rare. Courcelles (talk)
- (edit conflict) Looking at the log of appeals, which is mostly complete but not fully so, we've received 96 appeals since January, which works out as an average of between 8 and 9 a month, but the workload is very uneven (the maximum was 17 the minimum 4). Thryduulf (talk) 20:36, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Right, but I'm primarily interested in how many appeals for oversight/checkuser. It sounds to me like very little traffic on those? --Hammersoft (talk) 20:40, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Indeed. The log of appeals doesn't record why the appellant was blocked so I can't give you figures, but from memory they are only a tiny proportion. Which is why we need to make sure the UTRS system can handle the almost all the workload - CU and OS blocks are often easy to investigate as you have a very clear starting point and (generally) a lot less material to read. Thryduulf (talk) 21:06, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- And that goes to my point; if we were starting from scratch, I seriously doubt anyone would imagine creating BASC to deal with the 'problem' of OS/CU appeals. This motion is seeking to do just that. It's a solution looking for a problem. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:15, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- BASC is not a problem in and of itself, the problem is simply the workload of non CU/OS appeals. BASC is actually a good mechanism to handle appeals of CU and OS blocks as it just requires a consensus of interested arbitrators not of all active arbitrators. The other appeals do not require people with the CU or OS right to decide and so this motion is attempting to divest arbcom of that part of its workload - this needs to happen, but not until the structure of what replaces it is in place. Thryduulf (talk) 01:16, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- And that goes to my point; if we were starting from scratch, I seriously doubt anyone would imagine creating BASC to deal with the 'problem' of OS/CU appeals. This motion is seeking to do just that. It's a solution looking for a problem. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:15, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Indeed. The log of appeals doesn't record why the appellant was blocked so I can't give you figures, but from memory they are only a tiny proportion. Which is why we need to make sure the UTRS system can handle the almost all the workload - CU and OS blocks are often easy to investigate as you have a very clear starting point and (generally) a lot less material to read. Thryduulf (talk) 21:06, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Right, but I'm primarily interested in how many appeals for oversight/checkuser. It sounds to me like very little traffic on those? --Hammersoft (talk) 20:40, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- And the way BASC works now it mught get that many in a day, or an hour. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:35, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- If memory serves well, five would be a very busy month. Usually less. Courcelles (talk) 20:23, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Looking at the last 5000 blocks, fair enough and you are correct. So question; how many appeals does ArbCom get for oversight/checkuser blocks in, say, a month? --Hammersoft (talk) 20:13, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- In practice, I don't think BASC ever produced much bureaucracy (time sinks, on the other hand...) Other arbs could chime in on appeals at their leisure. What you're asking for is essentially abolishing a name and task checklist. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 20:01, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Thryduulf: When the UTRS system was in place we were usually getting appeals escalated from it. The only functional difference this creates is probably not one of UTRS workload, but that there is no next-in-the-chain appeal process for UTRS decisions compared to now. (This opinion given with the grain of salt that I haven't seen in the nature or volume of appeals has changed since I was on the committee/keeping track of stats.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 19:59, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- As a former BASC member I can certainly affirm what Courcelles says: BASC doesn't actually exist. The way it actually has worked is that whatever arb wants to comment comments, and then someone decides to unblock or not. And we do appear to have a consensus in the opened-long-ago-but-just-recently-closed RFC I initiated to adress the problems with this process to change the way the subcommittee works. 4-6 weeks is not a reasonable time frame for a response to block appeal, but given howmuch the committee has on its plate in a addition to BASC business that's just how it is. This could change that. It's not perfect, and it's not what I wanted at all, but it's better than how it works now. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:32, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- In the spirit of transparency, here is what I replied to L235 when she e-mailed the UTRS tooladmin list notifying us of this motion: "The motion does not seem to consider the possibility that UTRS might refuse this shift in responsibility. We're all volunteers and I don't think ArbCom has the possibility or ordering another volunteer team to take up specific duties if it is unwilling to so so. I'm not saying it will be the case, but the possibility exists and that ArbCom has seemingly failed to consider it worthy or consideration reflects poorly on the intentions behind this motion." The "responsibility shift" I am addressing is not one of workload -- it is that the "last resort" venue would stop being BASC and that would fall unto UTRS. I'd like to hear from the community what they think about the "final resort" for appeals being shifted away from a panel of elected arbitrators and towards single volunteer admins. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 01:41, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- I'd expect the committee to review en banc any appeals of CU/OS blocks as well as of the committee's own sanctions and blocks/bans applied via AE, which essentially negates the point of anything called BASC. I've thought Arbcom should divest itself of reviewing community-placed bans and blocks since before the review panel was called "BASC" so I strongly support this devolution. Risker (talk) 01:59, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Support trashing BASC. With Wikipedia about 14 years old and human life spans around 80, the problem will just grow. My current crazy idea is "Extinction" -- briefly, after three years of an account being banned we simply declare we're done with worrying about it -- we discuss it never again and give the person a do-over -- start from scratch with a new account. Simple, no-fault, low drama ... NE Ent 03:28, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Arbcom is there to arbitrate, but it seems to have ended up as the catch all for a lot of other issues. Ban appeals is one of them. Now, I think it's worthwhile for the community to have an option of ban appeals where they don't have the AN pile-on and can be actually considered - but I don't believe it should be Arbcom that does that. Removing bans from BASC's remit, or indeed just straight up disbanding BASC sounds like an excellent idea to me. WormTT(talk) 10:02, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Please add an alternative motion to disband BASC altogether. It's an alternative that may well garner more support looking at where this is heading. WJBscribe (talk) 10:29, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Motion: BASC disbanded
- For this motion there are 12 active arbitrators, not counting 2 who are inactive, so 7 support or oppose votes are a majority.
- Support
-
- Per discussions
belowabove, Roger Davies talk 10:59, 12 November 2015 (UTC) - NativeForeigner Talk 11:05, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Preferable to the above. GorillaWarfare (talk) 11:06, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Doug Weller (talk) 12:52, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- If we are going to do this, we might as well do it 100% --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 13:29, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Second choice. I'm not entirely satisfied, because, now, a majority of active, non-recused arbs will be required to unblock someone, rather than jut 3 arbs, but, at least, we get rid of this sime sink. Salvio Let's talk about it! 14:45, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Per discussions
- Oppose
-
- This is premature for exactly the same reasons as as the motion above - I am very strongly opposed to abolishing (partially or entirely) BASC until the replacement structures are in place, doing otherwise is grossly unfair to the appellants and to those volunteers handling the appeals. Thryduulf (talk) 12:18, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- This has been discussed for years in various fora. Those volunteers handling appeals are already doing so. There is no extra work for them. Roger Davies talk 12:45, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Discussed without reaching consensus. We have received nearly 100 appeals this year, if we are not handling them then they have to be handled by somebody else - UTRS, AN(I), or random admins, how is that not extra workload? The RfC explicitly noted that more discussion was required to define mandates regarding e.g. unblock conditions before reform could move forward - that discussion has not happened. Yes we need to push on this, but the correct next step is starting and shepherding that discussion, not throwing it all up in the air and tell random passing admins to just deal with it. Thryduulf (talk) 13:15, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- This has been discussed for years in various fora. Those volunteers handling appeals are already doing so. There is no extra work for them. Roger Davies talk 12:45, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- This is premature for exactly the same reasons as as the motion above - I am very strongly opposed to abolishing (partially or entirely) BASC until the replacement structures are in place, doing otherwise is grossly unfair to the appellants and to those volunteers handling the appeals. Thryduulf (talk) 12:18, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Abstain
-
- Recuse
-
Discussion by arbitrators (BASC disbanded)
- Dweller Yep! And fixed. Thanks, Roger Davies talk 11:08, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Perhaps current should be ongoing? It took me a bit to figure out what the intent of that point was, although I am in support regardless. NativeForeigner Talk 11:08, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- I wondered about that. I've changed it to: Any ban appeals of whatever nature open at the time of the passing of this motion , which is longer but clearer. Roger Davies talk 11:17, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Perfect enough! NativeForeigner Talk 11:32, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Am assuming that all other appeals go to a community noticeboard? -- Euryalus (talk) 12:47, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yes. Either, either via one of the talk page templates or via email request by the appellant (for want of a better word) to someone prepared to sponsor it or to UTRS. Roger Davies talk 12:50, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Am assuming that all other appeals go to a community noticeboard? -- Euryalus (talk) 12:47, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Perfect enough! NativeForeigner Talk 11:32, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- I wondered about that. I've changed it to: Any ban appeals of whatever nature open at the time of the passing of this motion , which is longer but clearer. Roger Davies talk 11:17, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Community comments (BASC disbanded)
- Roger Davies Do you mean discussions above? --Dweller (talk) 11:06, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Even better. Thanks Roger. WormTT(talk) 11:22, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- So how does a community banned, no talk page access editor appeal the ban? NE Ent 11:33, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Email any editor in good standing (or indeed UTRS) who is willing to open an appeal on a noticeboard? Until/unless the community sets up something better. WormTT(talk) 11:39, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- This really needs the community to agree on these things and set it up UTRS or an alternative process to deal with the appeals, with consensus for how appeals may be dealt with and by whom, before arbcom divests itself from hearing the appeals. Thryduulf (talk) 12:25, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Why Thryduulf? I'm genuinely asking. Arbcom was getting more and more ban appeals so it shunted them over to BASC, and then it somehow became official - but I don't think the community ever actually "asked" for another way to appeal blocks. The community has a process to overturn bans - discussion at WP:AN. It's sub-optimal due to pile on, but it is an available process. Arbcom doing it is to the detriment of the other roles Arbcom does, by taking time away from arbitrators. How many successful appeals have been dealt with in 2015? 8 were announced at WT:BASC... When I was on the committee you'd have 10-20 in per month. That's about 5%. It's not worth the committee's time, look at how many open cases there are right now - that's what you should be dealing with. WormTT(talk) 12:57, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Noting also that in a recent RfC there was consensus to "just get rid of BASC". WormTT(talk) 13:00, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Whether an appeal is heard by BASC or arbcom is not relevant to my argument, they are being heard by arbitrators as the final level of appeals, and the appeals need to be heard by someone. Until there is consensus and agreement on who will hear the appeals instead, and what mandate they have (can they impose conditions on an unblock for example?) - and the RfC close explicitly notes that this was not reached - we need to continue hearing them. Yes, we should be focused on cases but we need to continue doing this part of our job as well until someone else takes it over and there is no alternative body with the mandate to do so. UTRS and Arbcom hearing these appeals is because AN(I) has proven incapable of handling them, so sending it back there is not an option. Thryduulf (talk) 13:08, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Also, the community doesn't have much incentive to initiate when it's easiest just to dump the issue on arbcom. Banned editors emailing editors to post requests for unbanning / unblocking on WP:AN has been a recent occurrence, so it's an accepted, if undocumented practice. If the committee dumps BASC that would provide the impetus for discussing / documenting community practice on the ban appeal page. NE Ent 13:11, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Of the 5% of successful appeals this year, 25% are currently blocked. Are you sure that Arbcom are more capable of handling them? The cost is clear, it contributes to arb burn out, it takes away from what Arbcom should be doing, it gives false hope to those appealing. Arbcom needs to start saying "No" to roles it should not do. This is one. There are others. WormTT(talk) 13:13, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- I don't understand "incapable of handling them"? Here's an example of a ultimately successful defacto banned (indef'd 5.5 years) unblock appeal on ANI. NE Ent 13:20, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- This really needs the community to agree on these things and set it up UTRS or an alternative process to deal with the appeals, with consensus for how appeals may be dealt with and by whom, before arbcom divests itself from hearing the appeals. Thryduulf (talk) 12:25, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Email any editor in good standing (or indeed UTRS) who is willing to open an appeal on a noticeboard? Until/unless the community sets up something better. WormTT(talk) 11:39, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Re: Extra workload above. There are currently 2 situations where BASC act - one is where UTRS and {{unblock}} have been tried - removing BASC would result in zero extra work for these cases - just removing an additional method of appeal where 2 have already been tried and failed. How many successful appeals have gone through that process exactly? The other one is Ban appeals and indefinite blocks. How many of those are perennial appeals? They will not result in extra work, the community will toss them out very quickly. Of the non-perennial appeals, how many ban appeals are we talking that have not been taken to the community in any form? I think you are over estimating the amount of extra work needed if BASC wasn't there.
You're basing this on the premise that it must be replaced like-for-like and there's no reason to believe that. As long as there are reasonable ways for people to appeal, then that's all that is needed. WormTT(talk) 13:23, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Roger Davies: ...associated Wikipedia pages marked historic: Do you mean "historical" (defunct, obsolete, deprecated, pertaining to history; cf. {{historical}}) as opposed to "historic" (old and important). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:56, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Requests for enforcement
Nocturnalnow
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Request concerning Nocturnalnow
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- NorthBySouthBaranof (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 06:27, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Nocturnalnow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
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- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions#Placing_sanctions_and_page_restrictions : Biographies of Living Persons discretionary sanctions with regard to the biography of Huma Abedin.
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 3 October 2015 Removes long-standing, well-sourced description of fringe, highly-derogatory claims as a "conspiracy theory."
- 6 October 2015 Uses a partisan primary source for negative comments about the subject.
- 6 October 2015 Reverts negative partisan primary source into the article after it was removed.
- 7 October 2015 Again reverts the negative partisan primary source into the article.
- 11 October 2015 Adds more negative material, despite talk page concerns that it is unduly weighted and a coatrack.
- 12 October 2015 Reverts the above material back into the article against talk page consensus.
- 13 October 2015 Again removes the long-standing description of negative, discredited allegations as a conspiracy theory.
- 14 October 2015 Removes a reliable source, falsely claiming that it was written by the subject's husband.
- 17 October 2015 Inserts a partisan primary source and an unreliable partisan source (Breitbart) to source negative claims about the subject.
- 17 October 2015 Inserts a link to a partisan primary source into the External Links section, violating WP:BLPEL.
- 18 October 2015 Reverts the material back into the article after it was removed as not meeting quality and sourcing standards for content about living people.
- 18 October 2015 Once again reinserts those unacceptable sources.
- 18 October 2015 Yet again reinserts those same unacceptable sources.
- 18 October 2015 Reverts the link to the partisan primary source after it was removed as not an acceptable external link for a biography.
- 18 October 2015 Again reverts the above link.
- 30 October 2015 Makes personal attacks against the article subject and her spouse on the article talk page.
- 31 October 2015 Again removes consensus description of widely-discredited partisan attacks against her as being discredited, giving undue weight to a fringe theory which has been widely rejected by mainstream sources.
Edit-wars the {{NPOV}} tag into the article despite clear consensus that it doesn't apply:
- 00:15, 23 October 2015
- 20:08, 22 October 2015
- 03:28, 22 October 2015
- 18:56, 21 October 2015
- 02:23, 19 October 2015
- 21:59, 7 October 2015
- 20:41, 7 October 2015
- 01:54, 7 October 2015
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
Notified of the sanctions by Gamaliel here.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
This user is essentially a single-purpose account; out of fewer than 200 total edits to the encyclopedia, nearly 140 of them are to this biography or to its talk page. Effectively all of the edits and discussion have been highly negative toward the subject or have sought the inclusion of negative material about the subject, indicating that this user is not here to build an encyclopedic article about Abedin but rather to grind an ax against her and/or her husband. This is neatly demonstrated by this talk page comment which makes personal attacks on the subject and the subject's spouse. They have consistently edit-warred against clear talk page consensus to include negative material out of proportion to its prominence in reliable sources, to treat fringe allegations and claims with undue weight, to use poor and partisan sources and to cast aspersions on Abedin. Biographies of living people should not be edited by people with axes to grind against the article subject and I believe this editor should be encouraged to edit something else. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:27, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- Re: D.Creish, as the reliable sources in the section discuss, the fringe claims about Abedin and the Muslim Brotherhood are widely condemned and rejected by reliable sources and commentators ranging from The Washington Post to the Anti-Defamation League to Senator John McCain, have frequently been described as conspiracy theories and have been supported only by a small fringe minority of right-wing extremists. The single source you quote in "defense" only proves my case — you have linked nothing but an opinion blog post by Andrew C. McCarthy, a conservative columnist writing for a conservative publication. That these sort of partisan outlets are the only sources you can find to defend the claims is exactly the point — they are rejected by the mainstream. Describing the claims in the language used by the broad majority of mainstream sources - discredited, conspiracy theory, rejected, partisan, paranoid, dishonest, meritless, reprehensible, etc. - is the very definition of how we write encyclopedically and neutrally. Referring to them in any other way gives those fringe and highly-defamatory claims undue weight and violates fundamental policy. NPOV does not mean we give all "sides" of an issue "equal time" or equal credence. Fringe, discredited and meritless attacks on a living person must be treated as such.
- I would also note that this user is a brand-new account which recently showed up to edit Abedin's biography in a negative manner. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:29, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- Rhoark raises a red herring by mentioning the fact that the highly-defamatory and widely-discredited claims about Abedin are made by "congressional representatives." Members of Congress are not themselves reliable sources, and their opinions and claims about living people hold no more and no less weight than any other person's opinions and claims in this encyclopedia. As with anyone else, the weight to be given to these claims in Wikipedia is governed by how reliable sources treat them. It is indisputable that the overwhelming weight of mainstream reliable sources consider these claims, regardless of their source, to be scurrilous, baseless and meritless. Those mainstream sources which have commented on them all but universally dismiss them as politically-motivated paranoia on the order of McCarthyism. The only support to be found for them is among right-wing sources, and even then, they are defended only by a small minority of conservatives. They are, in short, fringe theories, and highly-defamatory fringe theories at that. The biographies of living persons policy demands that we treat defamatory claims about living people with extreme sensitivity, and not give fringe negative claims undue weight or "equal credence" within biographical articles. This is a textbook example of why that policy is in place. Calling these highly-defamatory claims "allegations" without immediately mentioning the mainstream view of the allegations as discredited unfairly depicts the issue as one with "two equal sides," as opposed to what it is: a partisan fringe leveling politically-motivated attacks which have been widely rejected by virtually everyone else across the political spectrum. Policy demands that these claims must be depicted as what mainstream sources say they are — baseless nonsense. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:36, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- Notified here
Discussion concerning Nocturnalnow
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by D.Creish
Based on edits since my involvement in this article I question the filer's neutrality.
They have several edits to the article so I'll confine my evidence to this one example: They insist on title-ing one particular section "Conspiracy theories" despite the lack of majority support for that statement and that those who allege the theories are living congresspeople, so BLP applies.
They've reverted a number of editors to retain this heading: [13] [14] [15] [16]
On the talk page they misrepresent sources to support the "conspiracy theory" heading:
"Well, no. The reliable sources on this matter are unanimous in describing these allegations as scurrilous, unfounded conspiracy theories." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:44, 17 September 2014
This is misleading. Only some do, a fact acknowledged in the opening sentence of the section:The claims in the letter were widely rejected and condemned, and were sometimes labeled as conspiracy theories.[17]
"I suggest you read the reliable sources which universally declare the claims to be baseless, scurrilous partisan personal attacks." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:50, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Again, a misrepresentation. The National Review article, a reliable source cited in that same section, describes her mother (Saleha Abedin) as "closely tied to the Muslim Brotherhood" - the claim here is supported [18]
Their last edit to this heading [19] relented somewhat in titling it "Discredited partisan attacks", which I believe is still not sufficiently neutral or supported. The heading they reverted from was my (more neutral, I believe) attempt at a compromise: "Security clearance controversy"
I also believe the filer has violated rules against canvassing. He notified an editor who frequently agrees with his edits of this filing [20] but failed to notify me despite my involvement just yesterday in a disagreement involving myself, the filter and Nocturnalnow where Nocturnalnow and I agreed. I only discovered this filing after seeing his latest revert and "stalking" his contribs.
I believe more editors on the article and talk page, and a focus on neutral language throughout would be beneficial. D.Creish (talk) 08:17, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- Re: NorthBySouthBaranoff, I take issue with the claim that I've edited the article in a "negative manner." I've made 3 effective edits to the article:
- One was to change the sentence: In June 2011, Abedin's husband became embroiled in the Twitter photo scandal, which was poorly written - "the" is confusing and ambiguous - to an earlier version: In June 2011, Abedin became the subject of widespread media attention amid her husband's Twitter photo scandal for which I provided additional sources to satisfy an earlier objection.[21]
- The second was the heading change, which I describe above.
- The third [22] was to correct a sub heading Reactions to the letter which made reference to a "letter" without context. In fact, the sub heading I replaced it with Backlash [23] is arguably more favorable to the subject and less favorable to the group to whom you refer as "conspiracy theorists."
- I believe my edits to the article speak for themselves. D.Creish (talk) 08:48, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
- @EdJohnston: Why exactly do you feel I deserve a restriction? I haven't edit warred, I haven't added objectively contentious material. Just today I made the following post to the article talk page:
-
Commenters on the Arbitration page expressed concerns with neutrality. I echo their concerns - this section title strikes me as particularly non-neutral, specifically WRT WP:LABEL. The majority of reliable non-opinion pieces do not describe the letter as a "partisan attack." Such wording would be inappropriate, unattributed, in the body of the section and doubly so in the title.
I hope to avoid a repeat of the earlier edit wars and establish consensus here before any controversial edits. D.Creish (talk) 00:19, 11 November 2015 (UTC) - whereas NorthBySouthBaranoff (the editor you feel should not be restricted) swooped in without talk page discussion to revert against consensus. I'm having trouble following your reasoning here. D.Creish (talk) 23:33, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- As for a general restriction on the article, the edit warring mostly concerned the section heading which is settled for now. I'd consult the editors involved but I don't foresee any issues. Re: 0RR, it seems like it could easily be abused: negative or questionable material could be added but not reverted (if I understand the restriction correctly.) D.Creish (talk) 00:18, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Nocturnalnow
With regard to the a single-purpose account assertion, I tried to show the Filer yesterday that I have a long history of editing going back to 2007, albeit under 4 different User names as I have forgotten my password several times after a rest from editing. I have always had a notification and linkage of that fact on my talk and or User page. I always figured the edits are what's important, rather than the name of the Editor, but in respect of other opinions, I have now written down my password and put the piece of paper in a drawer.
With regard to the other complaints, I think that any objective and thorough analysis of my editing history of the article will show a reasonable person that my accepted edits have dramatically improved the BLP even as it currently stands, and at least some of the non-allowed edits would have improved it even more. Nocturnalnow (talk) 03:37, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- I am absolutely willing to stop editing the Abedin BLP, however, when I announced such an intention awhile back, an Editor who in my view has been also trying to improve the content expressed his disappointment with my leaving the BLP. That, plus my own reluctance to abandon what I thought is a non-NPOV BLP, led me to conclude I should continue editing Huma Abedin.
- However, I also am accepting the constructive comments here by Gamaliel and others about me needing to read more about and practice more of our editing process and policies re: BLPs; so, I will be doing that regardless of the outcome of this enforcement request. Nocturnalnow (talk) 15:09, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Muboshgu
I'll comment a bit later. For now, World Series! – Muboshgu (talk) 06:37, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Johnuniq
The Huma Abedin article needs some serious protection and topic bans. The subject is closely associated with Hillary Clinton's campaign and hence is receiving special attention, primarily focused on WP:UNDUE mention of Abedin's husband's sexting scandal, and claims that Abedin had "immediate family connections to foreign extremist organizations" (claims where one ref states "Sen. John McCain denounced the allegations").
As an example of the "NPOV" editing on this BLP, it appears this edit at 07:27, 13 October 2015 changed the accurate "Conspiracy theory allegations" heading to the smear "Allegations regarding family members". That edit was by 119.81.31.4 which is now blocked for three years!
D.Creish (talk · contribs) has a total of 24 edits, six to Huma Abedin: two highlight a scandal regarding the subject's husband (1 + 2); two repeat the removal of the "Conspiracy theories" heading (3 + 4); and two are minor adjustments. An article like this should not be getting attention from blocked-for-three-years IPs and perfectly formed new accounts and Nocturnalnow who has a total of 203 edits including 67 to Huma Abedin and 79 to its talk. Johnuniq (talk) 09:42, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Gamaliel
This editor should be encouraged to use some less contentious articles to learn about Wikipedia policies like BLP, PRIMARY. UNDUE, RS, etc. and return to this article after the election. I believe they want to improve the article but they appear to have a strong viewpoint and a less than ideal grasp of current BLP practice. Gamaliel (talk) 04:00, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
I think that Rhoark's excellent review of the diffs illustrates the situation well. Nocturnalnow is not quite up to speed on how to properly handle BLP issues, and so a lot of time is wasted explaining basic policy and dealing with minor conflicts. Other editors are getting frustrated, as is Nocturnalnow because perhaps they feel that the resistance they are getting is obstructionist and not policy-based. Nocturnalnow should realize that the incident is already covered in the article - nobody is advocating shoving it down the memory hole - and so they should be satisfied even if it is not described in the exact language and manner they would prefer. Wikipedia is often about compromise.
I"m not sure how to handle this, but I think the best thing would be for Nocturnalnow to practice with these issues in a less contentious article that they do not have such strong opinions about. Gamaliel (talk) 14:28, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Callanecc: SInce many people (including myself) on one side of the argument are saying some of these edits violate BLP, a 0RR restriction would essentially only apply to one side of the dispute, or it would at least encourage the other side to invoke BLP as a justification for evading the 0RR. Gamaliel (talk) 14:12, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Rhoark
Review of diffs |
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Further edit warring over the NPOV banner, whose wording tends to encourage such behavior. |
Nocturnalnow does not seem to have a firm grasp on evaluating the reliability of sources. He also needs to be reminded that the "discuss" part of BRD is a two-way street. The claimed history of accounts seems plausible, as they seem to have similar linguistic patterns and a recurrent interest in American political scandals. I would not call that interest so narrow as to be a SPA, though. I suggest Nocturnalnow be placed under 0RR for BLP articles / claims to avoid similar disruptions.
Although Nocturnalnow's behavior is not acceptable, the filer should be admonished that NPOV does not read "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views except conservative ones." While sources can be found who unleash all sorts of invective about the Muslim Brotherhood allegations, it is a claim that was supported by five congressional representatives, and many respectable news organizations chose to criticize Bachmann only by proxy of John McCain.[25][26][27][28] That is the profile of a minority view, not a fringe one. There are some very good sources to draw on to criticize the allegations[29][30], but it is simply indefensible to do so through such prejudicial section titles. This is an encyclopedia. Rhoark (talk) 04:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- The wording of the NPOV banner is a persistent contributor to edit warring across the 'pedia. I've opened a discussion on that at Template_talk:POV#Please_do_not_remove_this_message_until_the_dispute_is_resolved. Rhoark (talk) 16:19, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
I had intended not to further argue content issues with @NorthBySouthBaranof: on this page, since there seems to be a loose consensus on where things stand with Nocturnalnow. In light of @EdJohnston:'s comments however, I need to speak to the content issues that bear upon the conduct of all parties. We should not tolerate anyone wishing the article to read more negatively, no matter how patiently they negotiate. That is what we call civil POV pushing. We shouldn't tolerate that from any point of view. Per NPOV, Wikipedia should describe disputes but not engage in them. If reliable sources substantiate the claim that a POV is factually wrong, that's still describing. That's not the state of sourcing in this matter, though. I don't think you will find a reliable source contesting any of the following:
- That Huma Abedin has a high degree of access to the Clintons
- That Abedin can be connected at several degrees of separation to the Muslim Brotherhood by way of various family members
- That family members with foreign entanglements are a major area of concern in a clearance background check
The mainstream point of view is that worrying about these things is paranoid, vicious, ignorant, Islamophobic, McCarthyist, regressive, and generally unworthy of consideration. That's my take as well. It is not, however, objectively verifiable or falsifiable. The majority opinion is still an opinion, and to express it through the form of a section heading is engaging in the dispute. All the disparaging things the media has said about Bachmann should be put to use in describing the level of acceptance of her views, but not the views themselves. I highlighted the fact that these concerns were raised by a group of congressional representatives - not because I'm so naive as to suppose elected officials are reliable sources, but because the closest thing there is to a bright-line test of fringiness in non-academic topics is a lack of prominent adherents. Congress is fairly prominent, which is why I said this issue has the profile of a non-fringe minority view. Were it fringe, though, the only prescription would be to leave it out of the article. If it's in the article, it has to be described impartially. Avoiding false balance is a matter of weight, not a call to endorse the majority. There is no hybrid or middle ground of NPOV and FRINGE that allows Wikipedia to take the gloves off. Rhoark (talk) 16:06, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- I appreciate User:EdJohnston's confidence in my interpretations, but I must also point out I recommend 0RR for Nocturnalnow only. As I believe in measures that are preventative rather than punitive, it's a recommendation tailored to the type of disruption he is evidently prone to cause. If D.Creish has been disruptive, evidence of that has not been presented. We've only been told that he has a low edit count. Rhoark (talk) 04:40, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Cla68
After looking at the diffs, it appears that both NorthbySouthBaranoff's and Nocturnalnow's edits are partisan. Both editors could be interpreted as engaging in BATTLEFIELD behavior. Cla68 (talk) 04:34, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
- By the way, saying something like this could be interpreted as not being a very welcoming or congenial reception to a new editor. Cla68 (talk) 05:07, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Professor JR
I don't normally participate in Dispute Page or TalkPage discussions, but have decided to here, as I must agree with Cla68 -- User:NorthBySouthBaranof's edits certainly qualify as partisan, or in violation of POV, as well, if Nocturnalnow's can be adjudged to be so; and, upon my review, it appears to me that Nocturnalnow's have not been, and that this filing is unwarranted. Clearly there is also no basis for the assertion by the filer that Nocturnalnow is a single-purpose account(!), and the filer's neutrality is quite apparently and obviously in question (check NorthBySouthBaranof's contributions history) as pointed out by D.Creish. It might be advisable, and to the benefit of all Wiki users and readers, if NorthBySouthBaranof were to take a brief respite from editing the Abedin article, or any other article relating to Hillary Clinton; and this comment by another editor was also entirely out of line and uncalled for. --- Professor JR (talk) 13:31, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Ryk72
Regarding the 500/30 restriction, referred to by EdJohnston below, and also independently here and at ArbCom Palestine Israel 3 here; I again urge the community to formalise this measure by amendment of WP:Protection policy and through the use of a similar technical implementation to Semi-protection. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 04:11, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Nocturnalnow
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Noting that I've fully protected the article. Also Johnuniq if you wish to submit evidence regarding other (ie not Nocturnalnow) could you please submit a separate AE request, thanks. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 12:11, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
-
- The full protection seems like a good idea. What to do when protection expires is a harder question. Editors might be required to get approval from an RfC for any further negative material. But it's not easy to word such a restriction. *If* this article were under a 500/30 restriction like the Gamergate controversy article, neither Nocturnalnow (talk · contribs) nor D.Creish (talk · contribs) would be allowed to edit (neither user has reached 500 edits). For now, I'd suggest that User:Callanecc extend the full protection for another three weeks. If we see any useful discussion on the talk page during that time it may give some ideas for what to do in the future. When protection expires, if there is a steady stream of people wanting this article to be more negative (who aren't willing to negotiate patiently over the wording) then article bans or a 500/30 restriction might be considered. EdJohnston (talk) 02:15, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
-
- I'd actually be tempted to put them both (or at least Nocturnalnow) under 0RR on this article and see what happens then. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:21, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
- Alternatively 0RR on the article (with normal exceptions so vandalism and obvious BLP stuff can be removed). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:35, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
- After reading Rhoark's interpretation of 0RR I am tempted to agree with User:Callanecc. I would put Nocturnalnow and D.Creish under 0RR restrictions on the article but give a warning to User:NorthBySouthBaranof. (I would make no exception to the 0RR for vandalism or BLP because some of the warriors believe they are defending BLP). But if this article becomes a political football during the campaign my guess is that long-term full protection may be the only option. EdJohnston (talk) 22:09, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Appeal of discretionary sanction topic ban violation block of HughD
Appeal declined. EdJohnston (talk) 22:05, 10 November 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Statement by HughDThe block notice cited "deliberate violation" of the topic ban. No violation of the topic ban, intentional or otherwise, took place. The topic ban is an administrator action under discretionary sanctions under WP:ARBTPM. The scope of topic ban is "...any articles involving the Tea Party movement broadly, including but not limited to anything at all related to Americans for Prosperity, Koch Industries, the Koch brothers..." The block notice and discretionary sanctions log entry cited an edit to Franklin Center for Government and Public Integrity. Franklin Center for Government and Public Integrity is not within scope of the topic ban. The demonstrated consensus of our community is that no reliable sources support a relationship between the Franklin Center for Government and Public Integrity and the Tea Party movement or the Kochs. Evidence that Franklin Center for Government and Public Integrity is not within scope of the topic ban includes, most significantly, an explicit ruling from the banning/blocking admin that Franklin Center for Government and Public Integrity is not within scope of the topic ban User talk:Ricky81682#Question on scope of ban: "I don't see a connection at all, directly or from Franklin Center for Government and Public Integrity...There should be leeway to edit there..." Additionally, Wikipedia article space, edit history 18:35 10 July 2013, 17:13 6 March 2015. and talk page discussion clearly demonstrates community consensus that the Franklin Center for Government and Public Integrity is not related to the Kochs. The block notice stated reason is "...adding content related to Donors Trust which is directly related to Tea party politics and to the Kochs..." Article Donors Trust was not edited. Donors Trust is not directly related to the Tea Party movement. Koch family foundations have contributed to Donors Trust. Donors Trust is a donor advised fund, the whole point of which is that no relationship may be inferred between a specific grantor and a specific grantee. Donors Trust is a donor advised fund; contributors to Donors Trust describe/specify/recommend the ultimate grantee. Funds generally must disclose their transfers to Donors Trust, and Donors Trust must disclose their grantees, but only very, very occasionally can we reliably state that a given donor contributed to a given org via Donors Trust. A connection grantor -> Donors Trust -> grantee is extraordinary difficult to document. See Searle Freedom Trust for an exception that proves the rule: as required by law, Searle disclosed that they contributed to Donors Trust, but also chose to disclose that their contribution was earmarked to fund a court challenge to affirmative action; a noteworthy, reliable, secondary source wrote about it, and we included it in our project. The topic-banning admin extended the topic ban to all organizations funded by Donors Trust, without consensus and without notice and without logging, and then blocked retroactively for violation of the extended topic ban. In discussion of some of these issues subsequent to the block notice, the banning/blocking admin advanced various alternative justifications for the block, including suspected use of a role account, socking, and ownership behavior, which charges can be addressed upon request if necessary. Respectfully request community discussion by uninvolved administrators regarding several related issues raised by this block:
Respectfully request repeal of block, strike-through of the block notice and strike-through of the block in the discretionary sanctions log. The block was not necessary to prevent disruption of our project. I am appealing this block in order to clear my name and clarify the scope of the topic ban. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:58, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Ricky81682First, the topic ban is for any articles involving the Tea Party movement broadly, including but not limited to anything at all related to Americans for Prosperity, Koch Industries, the Koch brothers, for one year. Second, this last AE argument already had repeated violations with the same argument of a lack of intent. I don't believe intent to violate the topic ban is required. It's a bizarre and impossible argument to prove. To summarize the extensive arguments I provided at User talk:HughD, I was asked at User_talk:Ricky81682#Question_on_scope_of_ban asked about Watchdog.org (related to another edit warring issue) which had no mention of the Koch brothers there and mentioned the Franklin as one of a number of in-linked articles (with a possible tenuous connection). Prior to HughD's involvement, this was what the Franklin Center looked like, which does include a reference to Donor's Trust which directly refers to the Koch family foundations and the like. I missed it and probably should have told HughD that the second level links are directly related but I did not inform him of that. However, whether or not that was an oversight on HughD's part is less likely to me when you examine this edit of HughD's which includes a citation to this article which clearly states that the Franklin center is tied to the Koch brothers. The point is, this shouldn't be a game where HughD asks me to examine article after article and I have to solve the tenuous connections that may or may not be there when HughD knows full well that they exist and even makes it my fault that I missed the connection so HughD should be allowed to edit freely on the topic. This is a complete waste of my time and energy to police someone else like this. I considered the ban description pretty obvious but seeing as how no one else has been banned under that sanction and HughD's insistence of playing this game, I suggest we provide HughD with a broader more definite topic ban so that it's clear. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:04, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement (involved editor 1)HughD is right. Guy Macon is a hypocrite here as is Ricky81682. The topic ban is completely i possible to follow given the millions of potential topics. Why should HughD have to make sure he doesn't violate a ban he didn't even come up with? Statement by (involved editor 2)This is classic entrapment. HughD was told this wasn't related to the topic and once he edited there, the trap was sprung and he was punished. Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by HughDOne detail of peripheral interest here. HughD mentions the administrator’s "novel concept of "second level links." This isn't, in fact, a particularly novel concept, at least not among hypertext researchers. Nodes reachable within N links of a starting point are clearly interesting and have been studied both in terms of technical and rhetorical strategies. I’ve used the term neighborhood for the concept; more mathematically-inclined researchers would simply say "the subgraph of diameter N from node V" or something like that. The Information Architecture people use "clicks" as a shorthand: "Koch Industries are just two clicks from the Franklin Center." So it’s not an outré invention. MarkBernstein (talk) 16:34, 6 November 2015 (UTC) Statement by Guy MaconThe following sources:
appear to refute the claim that "No evidence supports a relationship between the Franklin Center for Government and Public Integrity and the Tea Party movement or the Kochs". --Guy Macon (talk) 14:25, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
Result of the appeal by HughD
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Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )
I've sent this to ArbCom for clarification of whether it is covered or not given the grey area regarding redirects and articles. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:38, 9 November 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )
On October 16, 2015, after a request for clarification requested by me, Section 2.3 of the case involving Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ("RAN") was amended to say:
Today, RAN converted an existing redirect at William Sloane Coffin, Sr. into an article with the edit noted above, and then expanded the article with an additional 9 edits. I would contend that a redirect is not an article. This is not merely a technical distinction: a redirect has none of the attributes of an article, except a title. A redirect is, instead, an automated pointer to an article, not an article in and of itself. This distinction is recognized at, for instance, Wikipedia:Redirects in the section How to edit a redirect or convert it into an article; the word "convert" is a clear indication that a redirect is not an article, but must be changed in some fundamental way in order to become one. The distinction between redirects and articles can also be seen in Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion, in which there are different rules for the deletion of articles and for the deletion of redirects. It is recognized in the distinction between Wikipedia:Articles for deletion and Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion. The fact that articles and redirects are different things is simple common sense. By converting a redirect into an article, RAN has, in effect, created an article that did not exist before, which I believe is a violation of his ban from creating articles as outlined in section 2.3 quoted above. Such "pushing the boundaries" of his various sanctions is par for the course with RAN, and indeed has led to a number of Arbitration proceedings both before and after the full case he was the subject of. If the admins here agree with my argument, I have no recommendation for what kind of response is appropriate. I will say that the article itself is not problematic, and should be retained. BMK (talk) 05:33, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )Statement by Andreas PhilopaterI would suggest that clarification by the committee as to whether or not this breaches the ban is the only desirable outcome here. The article itself should be retained; no further sanctions should be applied. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 17:17, 8 November 2015 (UTC) Statement by AlansohnOn October 16, 2015, after a request for clarification requested by User:Beyond My Ken, Section 2.3 of the case involving Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ("RAN") was amended to say:
RAN did not move an article into article namespace. Nor, did RAN create an article. BMK was the one who created the article in this edit. Both RAN and BMK worked collaboratively to expand the article. The term "create" -- to bring (something) into existence -- has not been met here. As there was no violation of any aspect of this enforcement action and as the encyclopedia has been unequivocally improved by the collaboration between both BMK and RAN, I move that there is no justification for any enforcement action to be taken here. Alansohn (talk) 04:46, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by KingsindianHaving followed slightly the RAN drama for some time, I am amazed by the pettiness of some of the stuff brought against them. BMK states that the article should be retained, and there was no disruption to the project. Why then are we here? This seems to be the triumph of WP:BURO thinking. At most, there should be a clarification on whether the topic ban was breached, in which case, perhaps WP:ARCA might be a better venue. Kingsindian ♝♚ 05:17, 9 November 2015 (UTC) Statement by DrmiesA redirect is not an article. That's clear. I don't know if that really needs clarification, but there's all kinds of places in which we count them separately, for instance. I can't see the NYT obituary on which RAN's version was based so I can't see if there was a copyvio (I assume there wasn't, AGF and all--and common sense). I understand that Tim (Carrite) has been ferrying content in a way allowed by ArbCom (thanks for doing that, Tim) and don't know why RAN didn't go that route here; I can't help but think that RAN was trying to skirt the decision here a bit. Personally I don't see the point in a block or something like that, but I suppose it's a good idea for ArbCom to at least speak out on the matter in order to admonish/clarify. Drmies (talk) 05:48, 9 November 2015 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )
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Onefortyone
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Onefortyone
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Excelse (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 06:28, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Onefortyone (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Onefortyone#Onefortyone_placed_on_Probation :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [31][32] Canvassing.
- Use of false sources and misrepresentation of source. Already pointed on his talk page[33] and here[34], he use this source on Graceland(edit) for claiming that Biltmore Estate is more visited than Graceland. However that source doesn't mention Graceland anywhere, neither they say that Biltmore is 2nd most visited. He made this new edit to the article, however this book[35] is not comparing Biltmore with Graceland or calling it second most visited either. Thus violating WP:OR too.
- Personal attacks: referring opposition as "Elvis fans",[36][37][38] and considers fair edits to be "vandal" or "vandalism".[39][40][41][42][43]
- Edit warring. Already told by user:EdJohnston[44] not to add any controversial material without gaining consensus first. There was discussion about his edits on three different venues.[45][46][47] Yet he selected to re-insert non-consensus and incorrect edits again.[48][49]
- Stonewalling. After he saw that consensus is against him, he resorted to stonewalling by copy pasting cherry picked quotes[50] and pasting same feud on at least three pages ("did user Excelse present irrefutable arguments..")[51][52][53]
This all comes from last 9 days. If we were to talk about his decade of editing, there have been many complaints and they can be pointed too. Excelse (talk) 06:28, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- Now there is one more serious issue, it is that Onefortyone considers his opponents to be socks. Including WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. I have already described before that I am not a sock, neither these identities[54][55] were mine. Onefortyone has been told before to file a sock puppet investigation if he want to make these allegations,[56] but he is not wanting to do it and continuously copy pastes these misleading accusation of socking on multiple venues.[57][58] I have been editing for two years and I went to check Onefortyone's recent edits because his editing seemed like trolling, when he made this edit to "Graceland", this article is on my watchlist, not only it did misrepresented sources it considered fair removal of irrelevant content as "vandalism". I only targeted those pages where he was claiming such edits to be vandalism. I saw that he has been adding rumors and I also found out that he is the only one who has been edit warring[59][60] over removed content[61][62] and non-consensus content for over 6 years, and that's how I described it on edit summary, that somehow led him to claim that I am here for more than 6 years. It is actually obvious that Elvis Presley had over 1000s of biographer, Onefortyone happened to find a couple of biographers who have echoed some unpopular stories about Elvis only as "plausibility" and not as anything authentic, Onefortyone pushes such stories as "they are academics", while rest are "Elvis fans" as seen on WP:RSN too. Excelse (talk) 04:00, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Recent links included by Onefortyone[63][64] for supporting his edits are rather menial and failing to address the points already raised against his edits on their talk pages for years, one must see :[65][66][67], yet Onefortyone cites few small edits of others as exemption from making disruptive edits which is beyond me. Excelse (talk) 21:01, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- 2006 Topic banned on few Elvis articles for 2 months.
- 2006 Topic ban violation block.
- 2006 Topic banned for two months from Elvis Presley article.
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- [68]
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [69]
Discussion concerning Onefortyone
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Onefortyone
As many diffs show (see, for instance, [70] [71] [72] [73]), Excelse and his supposed sockpuppets or meatpuppets (see [74] [75] [76]) are new users whose edits are nothing more than an attempt to remove well-sourced content from Elvis-related pages that is not in line with their personal opinion, but was part of these articles for many years. From time to time, some of these Elvis fans took me to arbitration, because I am not always singing the praise of the mega star, having a more balanced view of the singer. However, according to arbcom decision, my opponents in these cases were all banned from Elvis-related articles, as all of my contributions are well-sourced (see, for instance, this more recent list of sources here), and their massive removal of content was thought unjustified. Here is what the arbcom says: "Onefortyone's editing has substantially improved from that in the earlier arbitration cases. A sampling of edits shows reference to reliable sources without overstating of their content. To a greater extent he allows the reader to draw their own conclusions." Therefore, Lochdale, one of my former opponents, who had shown "evidence of misunderstanding of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view" and "has removed large blocks of sourced material from Elvis Presley," was "banned indefinitely from editing articles which concern Elvis Presley." See [77]. As Excelse says in one of his recent edit summaries, "Six years passed, only second self published forums cite these gossips other than this page" (see [78]), it could well be that he was deeply involved in the former edit wars and is one of these banned users, especially in view of the fact that in the past I have been more than once the victim of attacks by sockpuppets of Elvis fans. See [79]. So some warnings against Excelse may be necessary, as most of the sources I have used are mainstream biographies of Elvis, studies published by university presses and books written by eyewitnesses. See also this discussion or this one. Onefortyone (talk) 21:04, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
What exactly has happened during the last weeks? There was an edit war between two editors. On the one hand, there is user Excelse removing paragraphs from Elvis-related articles without plausible justification simply because this content is not in line with his fan view of Elvis Presley. On the other hand, there is user Onefortyone reincluding this well-sourced content, which was part of the said articles for many years and was written by different editors. See, for instance, this massive removal of well-sourced content or this removal of content, which was written by at least three editors, namely DomiAllStates, ElvisFan1981 and Onefortyone in 2009 and 2011.
Furthermore, in his statement below, administrator EdJohnston has raised the question "whether Onefortyone's zealous efforts to add certain material to Elvis-related articles crosses the line into disruption". Perhaps it is possible to explain which of my contributions have been disruptive. To my mind, Excelse's massive removal of well-sourced content, accompanied by false accusations, is disruptive. According to Wikipedia:Disruptive editing, "some tendentious editors engage in disruptive deletions ... An example is repeated deletion of reliable sources posted by other editors." This exactly describes the behavior of Excelse. Administrator EdJohnston also claims that "Onefortyone does not seem to be eager for careful discussion of his proposals". My contributions on the talk pages say otherwise. See [80], [81], [82]. Onefortyone (talk) 19:46, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Onefortyone
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- See:
- Probation from 2005: "He may be banned from any article or talk page relating to a celebrity which he disrupts by aggressively attempting to insert poorly sourced information or original research."
- A ban on Elvis-related editing should be considered. There has been a previous discussion at User talk:EdJohnston#Onefortyone. The question is whether Onefortyone's zealous efforts to add certain material to Elvis-related articles crosses the line into disruption. Since there are three relevant Arb cases, the committee has already judged some of his past edits to be disruptive and they did enact a probation which allows for bans. One of the options is to go ahead and enact a ban from Elvis-related material, but that would need some evidence of recent bad behavior. The above complaint is more complete and thorough than the one left on my talk page, so I think the option of a ban should now be considered. Would like to hear from others who can look at the diffs in the above complaint and give their opinion. I became aware of this editor through a post by User:Laser brain on my talk page. Without carefully judging all the material, and just observing the attitudes of the participants, Onefortyone does not seem to be eager for careful discussion of his proposals. He is quick to accuse the people who revert him of various misdeeds: "Don't you see that Excelse is one of those POV warriors who are here to remove well-sourced content from articles that is not in line with their fan view?" EdJohnston (talk) 21:10, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- For a more recent discussion of User:Onefortyone's editing, see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive616#Onefortyone. Lots of TLDR there from the accused person, which makes it hard to understand exactly what's in dispute. The level of disruption from Onefortyone seen in 2010 would probably be enough to justify a topic ban under the standards that are currently applied to others at this noticeboard. If he gave any hint of being open to negotiation, or being willing to express himself briefly, it might be taken into account.
- I can't rule out that some of Onefortyone's opponents may be socks, but irrespective of who is on the other side, the long term issue of needing consensus for controversial material remains. I hope that Onefortyone knows there is a right way and a wrong way of bringing up sock charges. EdJohnston (talk) 21:10, 10 November 2015 (
Lvivske
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Lvivske
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Ymblanter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) 20:12, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Lvivske (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBEE :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 4 November 2015 First removal of "Neo-Nazi" from the lede; the issue at the time was under discussion at the talk page. After this edit, I opened an RfC at the talk page.
- 4 November 2015 Revert; after this revert, the page was protected
- 10 November 2015 Next revert; the user insists that the lede is "incorrect POV". The RfC is ongoing, the only arguments of Lvivske are essentioally repetition that "this is wrong POV". They did not edit between 5 and 10 November; their first edit after this period of inactivity (which started when the article was protected) was the revert.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Final Decision linked to above.- Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above (last time 18 June 2014 by Callanecc)
- Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on 2 October 2011 by Cailil (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Obviously, this is not the first time Lvivske edit-wars in EE articles, without giving any satisfactory explanation to their reverts. Whereas many of the opponents of the "neo-nazi" definition constructively participate in the RfC, Lvivske decided to edit-war. When I alerted them that I am going to file an arbitration enforcement request, they have chosen to revert again.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:12, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
@Gamaliel:. Yes, I mean WP:ARBEE. If you open one of the folded templates on the page, Lvivske's name is there. Sorry if i screwed up smth, this is the fist time I file an Arb enforcement request.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:31, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [83]
Discussion concerning Lvivske
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Lvivske
User is headhunting. First edit was made independent of any ongoing dispute the user had (there was no dispute notice on the article so I had no idea he was arguing with someone when I came across it). After I made a long series of edits to the article, all of my work was reverted at once without a legitimate reason. I was then threatened by Ymblanter that he would go to arbcom if I tried to edit the article again. Naturally, I restored my work.
Ends up he was having a dispute on the talk page about the lead, so no explanation was given for his reverting of all the work to the body I did, nor did he in good faith attempt to restore any of it.
He got the page locked with the offending, disputed, wildly POV version in place. Five days pass, I come back and see that there is overwhelming consensus to go to 'my version' of the article. I wait another day since there is no real objection to anything, and restore my work. Ymblanter files this to spite me.
Whatever. --LeVivsky (ಠ_ಠ) 22:41, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Beeblebrox
I recently applied full protection to this page to stop the edit warring. I have only been involved administratiely and have no opinion on the underlying dispute, but obviously, just waiting for the page protection to expire and reverting again while there is an open, active RFC on the subject is not acceptable behavior.
Regarding a few points in Lvivske's statement above:
-
- He got the page locked with the offending, disputed, wildly POV version in place. see WP:WRONG. As an admin it was not up to me to take a side in the dispute, but rather to stop the edit warring. If "your" version had been the one on the page at the moment I applied protection it would have stood during the protected period.
- Five days pass, I come back and see that there is overwhelming consensus to go to 'my version' of the article. If you have been edit warring in an article, and it is protected to stop the edit warring, and there is an active discussion of the issue on the talk page, you are clearly not the right person to be determining what consensus may or may not exist. You should leave that for a neutral third party who closes the RFC when it has concluded.
- As you are apaprently already under some editing restrictions I can't imagine any of this is actually new information to you.
Beeblebrox (talk) 19:30, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by MyMoloboaccount
If you look into Lvivske's edit history it seems he violated his restrictions several times Revision as of 19:39, 30 September 2015 to Sputnik article. No discussion on talk page, no cooling off period observed. Revision as of 05:01, 29 January 2015 no cooling off period, no discussion on talk. Revision as of 05:01, Revision as of 05:00, 29 January 2015 Russia article, no cooling off period, no discussion on talk. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:24, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Rhoark
@Ymblanter: @Gamaliel: Lvivske is listed in ARBEE not in the original decision but as having received an alert that is explicitly expired. Lviviske has however been sanctioned in the area, which suffices as evidence of awareness that does not expire AFAIK. Rhoark (talk) 22:33, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Comment by My very best wishes
Lvivske is under editing restriction: "..they are required to first open a discussion on talk, provide an explanation of their intended revert and then wait 6 hours before actually making it to allow time for discussion". Here he provided an explanation of disagreement [84] on 5 November 2015, well before 6 hours prior to his last revert [85] and after his previous edits on the same page. Here is discussion on this article talk page that followed. None of editors who commented after November 5 explicitly objected to the edit by Lvivske. Even administrator who brought this complaint here mostly agreed with edit(s) by Lvivsky [86]! The condition of his editing restriction seem to be completely satisfied. My very best wishes (talk) 04:53, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- As about his revert during standing RfC... Given that no one on RfC during whole week objected to his edit, this may be viewed simply as WP:IAR improvement of content by Lvivske. WP:CREEP. My very best wishes (talk) 05:38, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Result concerning Lvivske
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Lvivske is still under a Ukrainian 1RR/48 hr revert limitation per this 2014 AE appeal that was declined. His recent edits at Azov Battalion may break this restriction. The restriction states "..they are required to first open a discussion on talk, provide an explanation of their intended revert and then wait 6 hours before actually making it to allow time for discussion". I don't see where Lvivske followed this rule before making his Nov 10 revert. He also removed 'neo-Nazi' twice on November 4, which is within the 48 hour limit. EdJohnston (talk) 03:33, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
@Ymblanter: You write that Lvivske is "Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Final Decision linked to above." Are you referring to WP:ARBEE? I cannot find their username on the decision page. Gamaliel (talk) 17:25, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- (ec) It's unfortunate that Lvivske's other content edits got lumped in with the "neo-Nazi" dispute, but he seems to have violated the 6-hour slowdown at the very least. The restrictions he is editing under seem strangely complex, but I'm sure he's aware of them. Since he's already been sanctioned for one-week periods, I think a two-week or one-month block is appropriate. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 17:28, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- We should consider a topic ban of Lvivske from the Azov Battalion. Even if his restriction is hard to understand, reverting while an RfC is still in progress is one of the things we don't like to see, and appears obviously wrong. EdJohnston (talk) 05:12, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
-
- User:Lvivske was notified of discretionary sanctions in the old days at this AE request by User:Shell Kinney in August 2009. Rhoark argues above that Lvivske's 2011 ARBEE editing restriction should be considered 'evidence of awareness that does not expire AFAIK'. EdJohnston (talk) 15:27, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Yossiea~enwiki
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Yossiea~enwiki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) – Yossiea (talk) 02:00, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- 48 hour block for https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_military_occupations&diff=690173133&oldid=690166858
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Swarm (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Statement by Yossiea~enwiki
That was not a personal attack. Don't come in the middle of a discussion just because one person decides to complain, if that happened at all. If you want to chase people away from editing Wikipedia, that's a good way to do it. Look at the Talk page for Military Occupation, and how serialjoepsycho does not assume good faith and how he attacks me and my editing merely because he doesn't like it, yet he doesn't get warned.
Statement by Swarm
First, no one complained to me about you. I came across the discussion on my own and acted as an uninvolved administrator. Second, So in other words you're not interested in the truth, you're just interested in being anti-Israel. is an explicit assumption of bad faith against an established editor in good standing, which constitutes a personal attack, and is exactly the kind of thing that is not tolerated under discretionary sanctions and should not be tolerated when dealing with a highly controversial subject matter. I read the entire discussion and I find many of the comments on both sides to be utterly unhelpful, however you were the only one to make it worse by launching an a clear personal attack against an opponent. Swarm ♠ 05:09, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Serialjoepsycho
I have to question if this 48 hour ban is actually enough. [87] I've just noticed in this diff that this user has attempted to canvass users from wikiproject Israel to the discussion. Targeting one interested on a perceived basis of their views, Vote stacking, per WP:CANVAS. There's what seems to me to be WP:IDHT behavior in the discussion. Certainly at the very least warning is called for with the canvassing.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 06:30, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Yossiea~enwiki
Result of the appeal by Yossiea~enwiki
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- The cited diff is a personal attack as noted by Swarm, and the block is just 48 hours. Since the block appears justified, granting an appeal doesn't seem like the best option. EdJohnston (talk) 05:15, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- It most certainly is a personal attack and 48 hours is pretty fair (could easily have been longer) block length. Therefore I'd decline the appeal. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:04, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- I read the entire discussion on the talk page and what I saw disturbed me. I saw no evidence of attacks on Yossiea by serialjoepsycho or anyone else, despite the claim here by Yossiea. I did see evidence of other editors trying to explain sourcing policy to Yossiea and Yossiea arguing for changes to the article based on his personal interpretation of the facts, as opposed to providing reliable sources. I'm a bit stunned that someone who's been editing since 2005 doesn't have a handle on WP:RS yet, or is willing to throw it out the window in a contentious topic area. I hope this is a temporary aberration, but we should consider a topic ban from this area should this behavior continue. In the matter at hand, I suggest we deny the appeal as being baseless. Gamaliel (talk) 13:02, 12 November 2015 (UTC)