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Contents
- 1 Requests for closure
- 1.1 Wikipedia:Non-free content review
- 1.2 Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard#Is it OK for Wikipedia to choose its own pronunciation symbols?
- 1.3 Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#109 BLP articles labelled "Climate Change Deniers" all at once
- 1.4 Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 55#Owen 'Alik Shahadah
- 1.5 Talk:Campus sexual assault#RfC on recent AAU campus climate survey
- 1.6 Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive904#Continued Anti-Semitic concern trolling by User:Mrandrewnohome at the Reference Desks
- 1.7 Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Community discussion regarding disruptive edits to Heathenry-themed articles
- 1.8 Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 64#Images of victims and/or perps on crime pages
- 1.9 Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2015 November#Kim Davis (county clerk)
- 1.10 Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2015 November 8#Category:Blue-eyed soul singers
- 1.11 Talk:Electronic cigarette#RFC Are these sources the same?
- 1.12 Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Allie X Topic Ban Proposal
- 1.13 Wikipedia_talk:User_pages#Rephrase_suggestion_to_WP:UP.23POLEMIC
- 1.14 Talk:Nicholas A. Christakis#RCF: Recentism
- 1.15 Talk:Alternative theories of the location of Great Moravia#Juraj Sklenár's view
- 1.16 Talk:Political correctness#Definition of political correctness
- 1.17 Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)#RfC: What claims are governed by WP:MEDRS?
- 1.18 Template talk:Certification Table Entry#Sales figures: combined vs traditional
- 1.19 Template talk:Caliphate#Sources
- 1.20 Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Boxing#RfC: format of boxing weight classes
- 1.21 Talk:New York Public Library#RFC: Should the further reading section of this article be trimmed?
- 1.22 Talk:Jedediah Smith#Request for Comment
- 1.23 Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy#RfC about WP:NOTHERE
- 1.24 Talk:Frogman#RfC: Should this page be substantial reduced, stubbed, or deleted due to lack of inline references and other problems?
- 1.25 Talk:Schizoaffective disorder#Request for comment on the painting(s)
- 1.26 Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Challenging ISIL community sanction
- 1.27 Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Request topic ban for CheckersBoard
- 1.28 Talk:Watchdog.org#Summarization of multiple highly relevant, highly reliable independent third party assessments of ideology and partisanship
- 1.29 Talk:Denial_of_the_Holodomor#RfC:_Jeff_Coplon_in_the_.22Modern_Denial.22_section
- 1.30 Talk:Wikipediocracy#RfC: Wording at top of 'activism' section
- 1.31 Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2015 November 28#Category:Academic pressure in East Asian cultures
- 1.32 Wikipedia:Security review RfC
- 1.33 Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2015_November_11#US_miniseries_decade_templates
- 1.34 Talk:Glyphosate#RFC: Appropriate use of NON-WP:MEDRS primary study
- 1.35 Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2015_November_25#Germanic_peoples
- 1.36 Talk:Cold War II#Move portions to other pages?
- 1.37 Talk:Electronic_cigarette#Merge Discussion - Sub articles Safety, Aerosol, and E-liquid
- 1.38 Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#G6_for_default_Article_Wizard_text
- 2 Community discussion regarding disruptive edits to Heathenry-themed articles
- 3 Edit request backlog
- 4 Challenging ISIL community sanction
- 5 Edit filter RfC
- 6 Arbitration motion regarding Removal of Unused Sanctions
- 7 Google Relying on Wikipedia
- 8 New essay
- 9 Request topic ban for CheckersBoard
- 10 Policy question: is it permissible to edit for pay from an IP address?
- 11 Balkans issue
- 12 Minor vandalism on webisode episode listings
- 13 Arbcom remedies.
- 14 Request for comment on possible change to administrative policy
- 15 WP:SPI
- 16 A request to review the close at Talk:Allegiance (musical)
- 17 Request to move archives of Talk:List of YouTubers
- 18 WP:ANRFC
- 19 Rescinding unused community sanctions: WP:GS/BI
- 20 Checkuser data followup
- 21 Review of topic ban - Armenian genocide denial
- 22 Category:AfD debates relisted 3 or more times
- 23 Experienced LTA clerk needed
- 24 Query new method of adding spam links
- 25 Backlog
- 26 Delisting of skyscrapercity
- 27 3RR backlog
- 28 Jimbo lovin' troll
- 29 Segregationist
- 30 Please put this in Template:In the news
- 31 Discussion at CIVILITY
- 32 Industrial copyright violation of Wikipedia information
- 33 What to do with User:JackTheVicar's content
- 34 Is Wayback Machine down?
- 35 Mathematical constant
- 36 ArbCom election results live
- 37 I need help with the page on Venezuelan politician Leopoldo López, which looks like a political ad
- 38 WP:SPI
- 39 Needing Some Help
- 40 Slow motion Edit war and deleting the Citation needed request .
- 41 Backlog at Wikipedia:Copyright problems
- 42 Range block needed
- 43 Can someone fix the edit history at Petite France?
- 44 Terren Scott Peizer
- 45 Disruptive edits, edit warring in Armenia area
- 46 Possible abuse of multiple accounts
- 47 Genetically modified organisms case closed
- 48 Page creation for redirect for flag of Kosovo emoji request
- 49 Judson High School
- 50 Deletion
- 51 Galleries of personalities in the infoboxes
- 52 Notice of change to edit filter guideline
- 53 Password security RfC at meta
- 54 RfA Policy RfC Closed
- 55 List of Iranian people by net worth
Requests for closure
- These requests for closure are transcluded from Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure.
Wikipedia:Non-free content review
This discussion forum has an extensive backlog where the oldest active entry was started on 10 June 2015 ({{Initiated|10 June 2015}}), and at the time if me posting this request, the page has 163 discussions that have yet to be closed, several started over a month ago. Steel1943 (talk) 19:10, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- Please update {{Initiated}} below as the backlog is (slowly) taken care of.--Aervanath (talk) 19:35, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- (Initiated 184 days ago on 13 June 2015)
- About 155 discussions still to be closed.
Since this discussion board is now deprecated, and there will be no new discussions opened there, I would appreciate some help clearing the backlog.--Aervanath (talk) 21:56, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- I just "did" about 3 of them. For the ones where I believe could really use more discussion, I've been relisting them on WP:FFD (but not in huge droves as that would overwhelm the daily subpages over there.) Steel1943 (talk) 21:59, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- We're getting close to having all these discussions closed. NFCR is now down to 100 open discussions. Also, in November, NFCR was shut down to new requests, directing new requests to WP:FFD; when all of the discussions are closed from NFCR, the noticeboard will be closed and marked as historical. Steel1943 (talk) 18:52, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard#Is it OK for Wikipedia to choose its own pronunciation symbols?
This discussion is happening on three pages at once (NORNB, Help talk:IPA for English where it actually belongs, plus another at MOS:PRONUNCIATION). This NORNB tine of the fork has turned into another couple-of-editors-textwalling-against-each-other thing, and is actually in the wrong venue. WP:NOR pertains to the information content, not how WP presentationally wraps it. I.e., the actual content that is subject to core content policies is what the pronunciation(s) is/are. WP has multiple pronunciation transcription markup systems, and like our citation styles, this is WP-original metadata, not subject to WP:CORE. One of them is based on (mostly American) dictionary-style pronunciation keys: [pro-NUN-see-ay-shun]; the other loosely based on IPA. Both are synthetic and are internal matters, and not subject to WP:NOR / WP:V. As long as the pronunciation that emerges in the reader's mind is verifiable, it does not matter what markup wrapper we convey it with. Both of our extant pronunciation guide systems could be replaced tomorrow with something entirely different and even more arbitrary (even one consisting of entirely WP-invented orthography, though that would not of course be practical). While I agree that OP has a point – it's not wise for us to use a WP-modified version of IPA that conflicts with IPA norms that a linguist would expect – that's not an NOR matter, but a matter for consensus discussion at the IPA for English talk page. The discussion there should remain open until naturally resolved or a closure request is made, while the one at NORNB should be closed as no consensus / off topic. (Initiated 48 days ago on 27 October 2015) — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 14:47, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Now both sides of the dispute have conceded that this won't be resolved as a WP:NOR issue, so this fork of the discussion has no reason to stay open at WP:NORNB, and can be centralized, finally, at Help talk:IPA for English, which is collectively trying to actually resolve it. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:10, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Now archivec at Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard/Archive 35#Is it OK for Wikipedia to choose its own pronunciation symbols?. Armbrust The Homunculus 14:16, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#109 BLP articles labelled "Climate Change Deniers" all at once
"Closure by admin requested for WP:BLPN discussion BLP articles labelled "Climate Change Deniers" all at once". (Initiated 45 days ago on 30 October 2015) Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:00, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- When this is closed it definitely needs to be closed in tandem with Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2015_October_16#Category:Climate_Change_deniers. I've read through a lot this morning and have no idea what to do; there's no strong consensus to do anything (i.e. there is zero agreement on what wording to actually use) but there is pretty strong consensus that the current situation is not sufficient for BLP. There are a lot of other factors at play here too; like how some BLP's are badly categorised anyway (which the rename may have compounded). My feeling is that we're I to close this I'd do a no-consensu o what to call the category, delete the cat under WP:BLPCAT and open a neutral RFC incorporating all of the main suggestions for category naming and inclusion criteria, to resolve this in detail. --Errant (chat!) 10:00, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
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- Thanks for mentioning that parallel discussion. In addition to the immediate issue, there was also a procedural disagreement about whether WP:BLPCAT claims should be decided as a BLP Incident or as a Category for Discussion. I don't know if there is an answer to that jurisdictional question but it may matter since the the two conversations had starkly different consensuses. RevelationDirect (talk) 19:15, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- A bot changed the heading and text of this closure request to point to Archive231. That is the wrong URL. In fact the discussion is currently the first item at WP:BLPN. This confusion is my fault. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:09, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- Fixed the links. It looks like someone de-archived it... although it's also in the archive. Armbrust The Homunculus 21:41, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
Requesting specifically admin closure on this contentious discussion, given the range of BLP articles involved (E.g.; Václav Klaus, Bill O'Reilly William Kininmonth, Pat Sajak). The last post was 9 days ago. (Initiated 45 days ago on 30 October 2015) μηδείς (talk) 19:28, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- I think I'd be happy to close this having taken several goes at reading through - but actually I'd prefer another admin or two to be involved & help discuss the close. As far as I can see there is consensus that there is a problem but no actual viable solution agreed on (even the status quo). My close would be simply to remove the category to reset us back to zero and to draft/open a neutrally worded RFC at a sensible location to resolve this once and for all. Whatever it is closed as this will be contentious, and a major task, so I'd prefer assisstance. --Errant (chat!) 15:08, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 55#Owen 'Alik Shahadah
Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at the RfC at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 55#Owen 'Alik Shahadah (Initiated 72 days ago on 3 October 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 05:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Campus sexual assault#RfC on recent AAU campus climate survey
Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Campus sexual assault#RfC on recent AAU campus climate survey (Initiated 70 days ago on 5 October 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 05:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- The RFC was reposted Nov 17th. AlbinoFerret 23:50, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive904#Continued Anti-Semitic concern trolling by User:Mrandrewnohome at the Reference Desks
Would an experienced editor admin assess the consensus at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive904#Continued Anti-Semitic concern trolling by User:Mrandrewnohome at the Reference Desks (Initiated 39 days ago on 5 November 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 05:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- Since this is on an admin board, shouldn’t an admin close it? AlbinoFerret 18:06, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Community discussion regarding disruptive edits to Heathenry-themed articles
Would an administrator assess the consensus at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Community discussion regarding disruptive edits to Heathenry-themed articles (Initiated 33 days ago on 11 November 2015) and administer news of a topic ban to the user in question if that is what consensus calls for? Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:55, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- Would an admin assess the consensus at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive276#Community discussion regarding disruptive edits to Heathenry-themed articles (Initiated 33 days ago on 11 November 2015)? See the subsection Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive276#Proposed topic ban. Thanks, Cunard (talk) 06:13, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 64#Images of victims and/or perps on crime pages
Uninvolved administrator needed. (Initiated 51 days ago on 24 October 2015) --George Ho (talk) 16:09, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
- Almost no definite opinions have been offered, and George Ho relisted this on December 2, so closing this is very premature. --GRuban (talk) 03:55, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2015 November#Kim Davis (county clerk)
(Initiated 35 days ago on 9 November 2015) - review of a move originally proposed 21 October 2015. Experience closing contentious discussions needed, and apologies in advance for the wall of text. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:56, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2015 November 8#Category:Blue-eyed soul singers
(Initiated 36 days ago on 8 November 2015)
(edit conflict) Discussion has been open since 8 November 2015. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 05:33, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Electronic cigarette#RFC Are these sources the same?
Would an experienced editor close this one. It should be easy and quick. (Initiated 45 days ago on 30 October 2015). There is a second RFC on the same topic started the same day, but split off 4 days later that adds questions Talk:Electronic cigarette#Questions added after the start of the RfC above. It was started by a now topic banned editor.(Initiated 41 days ago on 3 November 2015) This should be another easy quick close. AlbinoFerret 13:44, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Allie X Topic Ban Proposal
Consensus seems clear and discussion has halted, so an administrator is needed to review and close three topic bans, and possibly enforce the topic bans at the following incident report: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Allie X Topic Ban Proposal. I can help however I can. Thank you. (Initiated 25 days ago on 19 November 2015) SanctuaryXStop talking in codes 15:35, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- Would an admin assess the consensus at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Allie X Topic Ban Proposal (Initiated 25 days ago on 19 November 2015)? See the subsections Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Topic-Ban for WordSeventeen and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Topic ban for SanctuaryX. Thanks, Cunard (talk) 06:13, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- There is a subsection for Zpeopleheart as well at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Topic-Ban for Zpeopleheart Please resolve this quickly because there are still ongoing issues that need to be resolved ASAP. SanctuaryXStop talking in codes 14:33, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
In all actuality there are new comments and discussion points have been added since the last archiving for lack of discussion, so discussion may continue. So any admin or other proper person please unarchive the whole deal so we make discuss greely to make it gair for all parties. Thanks. WordSeventeen (talk) 20:59, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
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- The only continued "discussion" was you opposing your own ban after removing your comments from my talk page. The discussion is very much stalled, with a pretty clear consensus for all three cases; it can still be closed regardless of whether it is archived or not. SanctuaryXStop talking in codes 21:15, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
sanx, I do note this comment that you placed here. You are though quite incorrect on the policies and protocol at wikipedia. Please do have a fantastic day©! WordSeventeen (talk) 21:25, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- Wordseventeen, SanctuaryX is correct. In an issue that has been as tendentious as this one has been, it's a good idea to not suggest that someone is quite incorrect about policies and protocol unless you are going to back it up with diffs and links to specific policies. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:35, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia_talk:User_pages#Rephrase_suggestion_to_WP:UP.23POLEMIC
Seeking a close of this RFC. With the canvassing that has taken place it's impossible to determine the consensus. There's no need in further wasting the communities time or the members who have signed up to the Request for feedback service.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:37, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
(Initiated 32 days ago on 12 November 2015) AlbinoFerret 03:24, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- It was opened on November 12 but it should have been closed on November the 14th when it became clear that editors where being sent email correspondence to advertise the RFC [1][2]. In addition to this type of inappropriate canvassing they also advertised to the Wikiproject France in the aftermath of the Paris attacks seeking to manipulate any emotional sympathies for the France that it members may have [3]. Both types of Canvassing that were employed have poisoned the well. The consensus making process has been compromised and it should be closed.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 11:11, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Nicholas A. Christakis#RCF: Recentism
Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Nicholas A. Christakis#RCF: Recentism (Initiated 25 days ago on 19 November 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 06:13, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Alternative theories of the location of Great Moravia#Juraj Sklenár's view
Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Alternative theories of the location of Great Moravia#Juraj Sklenár's view (Initiated 49 days ago on 26 October 2015)? See the subsection Talk:Alternative theories of the location of Great Moravia#RfC: Sklenár's theory.Thanks, Cunard (talk) 06:13, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Political correctness#Definition of political correctness
Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Political correctness#Definition of political correctness (Initiated 38 days ago on 6 November 2015)? See Talk:Political correctness#Closing this RfC. The opening poster wrote: "Is political correctness a concept of not offending — especially the marginalized — in a community or is it primarily pejorative?" Thanks, Cunard (talk) 06:13, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)#RfC: What claims are governed by WP:MEDRS?
Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)#RfC: What claims are governed by WP:MEDRS? (Initiated 45 days ago on 30 October 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 06:13, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- For the record, this RfC was withdrawn in favor of another RfC which is still ongoing. Sunrise (talk) 05:54, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
Template talk:Certification Table Entry#Sales figures: combined vs traditional
Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at the RfC at Template talk:Certification Table Entry#Sales figures: combined vs traditional (Initiated 43 days ago on 1 November 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 06:13, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Template talk:Caliphate#Sources
Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Template talk:Caliphate#Sources (Initiated 49 days ago on 26 October 2015)? See the subsection Template talk:Caliphate#RfC, where the opening poster wrote:
Should the Template just list a select number of caliphates (of which there are 7 as can be seen on the template) or should it include every caliphate as can be seen in the article Caliphate (of which there are ~10 as can be seen in history).
Thanks, Cunard (talk) 06:13, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Boxing#RfC: format of boxing weight classes
Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Boxing#RfC: format of boxing weight classes (Initiated 38 days ago on 6 November 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 06:13, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Talk:New York Public Library#RFC: Should the further reading section of this article be trimmed?
Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:New York Public Library#RFC: Should the further reading section of this article be trimmed? (Initiated 59 days ago on 16 October 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 06:13, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Jedediah Smith#Request for Comment
Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Jedediah Smith#Request for Comment (Initiated 43 days ago on 1 November 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 06:13, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy#RfC about WP:NOTHERE
Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy#RfC about WP:NOTHERE (Initiated 42 days ago on 2 November 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 06:13, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- Not done following rough on the link RFC, a new RFC has been started and is not ready for close yet.NE Ent 00:23, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
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- Removed Not done template. There is no open RfC at Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy. Cunard (talk) 00:28, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Frogman#RfC: Should this page be substantial reduced, stubbed, or deleted due to lack of inline references and other problems?
Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Frogman#RfC: Should this page be substantial reduced, stubbed, or deleted due to lack of inline references and other problems? (Initiated 58 days ago on 17 October 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 06:13, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Schizoaffective disorder#Request for comment on the painting(s)
Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Schizoaffective disorder#Request for comment on the painting(s) (Initiated 47 days ago on 28 October 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 06:13, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Challenging ISIL community sanction
Would an admin assess the consensus at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Challenging ISIL community sanction (Initiated 26 days ago on 18 November 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 06:13, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Request topic ban for CheckersBoard
Would an admin assess the consensus at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Request topic ban for CheckersBoard (Initiated 21 days ago on 23 November 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 06:13, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Watchdog.org#Summarization of multiple highly relevant, highly reliable independent third party assessments of ideology and partisanship
There are actually three virtually identical discussions that have failed consensus and should be closed:
- Talk:Watchdog.org#Independent assessments of partisanship
- Talk:Watchdog.org#Summarization of multiple highly relevant, highly reliable independent third party assessments of ideology and partisanship
- Talk:Watchdog.org#Summarization of multiple third party assessments of ideology
Thank you!-- Paid Editor, but not on the Watchdog.org topic -- User:009o9Talk 19:12, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Denial_of_the_Holodomor#RfC:_Jeff_Coplon_in_the_.22Modern_Denial.22_section
Would an experienced editor assess the consensus here? Be warned: the discussion is somewhat long and covers various issues. (Initiated 36 days ago on 8 November 2015) Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 16:30, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Wikipediocracy#RfC: Wording at top of 'activism' section
This RfC has run for a month and failed to demonstrate consensus for a change to the stable wording in the article. Could someone please close it? Thank you. — Scott • talk 17:13, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2015 November 28#Category:Academic pressure in East Asian cultures
Hello, I originally initiated a discussion on the renaming of Category:Academic pressure in East Asian cultures a few weeks back. I can see that the discussion appears to support a renaming of the category. I am an IP user so I do not have the power to close this discussion or rename it. I initially opened the discussion under the IP address of 137.147.55.166 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), you will notice that has changed today because my IP address always changes, I am still the same person I just have a different IP address. Could someone please close the discussion and rename the category please? It has completed its 7 day discussion as it finished last Saturday, thank you. (120.144.180.158 (talk) 06:26, 9 December 2015 (UTC))
-
- Hello, for those of you who might be sceptical of whether I am the original user who opened the discussion mentioned above, 137.147.55.166 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), I can guarantee you I am the same person my IP address often changes so that's why I look like another user. I even mentioned this to another user on their talk page when I was using that IP address - User talk:Smileguy91#Vandalism. I just wanted to make sure everyone knew I am the same user, just a different IP address. (137.147.151.25 (talk) 05:33, 12 December 2015 (UTC))
Wikipedia:Security review RfC
Following two compromised administrator accounts, I initiated an RfC on some changes to En.WP's password rules. The discussion has all but ended, would a kind admin look over and close it please, so I can get back to the WMF on what we want implemented on En.WP only. WormTT(talk) 08:14, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- I've done most of this, but there are a few sections I was too involved with and therefore can't close. This is almost done and would require just a few minutes for an uninvolved admin to complete it. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:45, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2015_November_11#US_miniseries_decade_templates
Month-old TfD that is a reboot of one I previously closed; need someone uninvolved to take a look. Thanks. Opabinia regalis (talk) 03:08, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Glyphosate#RFC: Appropriate use of NON-WP:MEDRS primary study
clearly defined question in contentious topic area, ?consensus - need closure by uninvolved admin.--Wuerzele (talk) 05:12, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Just a note that the RfC is only five days old and no one has agreed to end it early. That being said, the GMO ArbCom case should be wrapping up soon, so there's no harm in letting the RfC run it's normal time to allow the remedies can take effect in the meantime. Kingofaces43 (talk) 06:14, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Just a note that there are walls of text growing since Dec 4, no new editors have chimed in, and an unreasonable repetition of the same arguments, furthering WP:FUD stifles process. No one has disagreed tothe RFC. That being said, the GMO ArbCom case has been going on and on though King wants it to be wrapped up soon as possible, as he has stated repeatedly on the arbcom page, there's no harm in closing the RfC to stop the hemorraging of glyphosate so that small remedies can take effect in the meantime. --Wuerzele (talk) 07:59, 10 December 2015 (UTC) This RFC is only the first in 3 whole sale deletions by the same editor group, anticipating more RFC's to come.--Wuerzele (talk) 08:21, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2015_November_25#Germanic_peoples
Could an experienced discussion closer please close Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2015_November_25#Germanic_peoples? There have been no new comments added to this discussion since about a week ago and most people does not want to rename or deleting anything including me who is the olny one that included sources and could the closer read my argumentation too. 95.128.118.58 (talk) 13:05, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Cold War II#Move portions to other pages?
I need an accurate closing rationale. --George Ho (talk) 04:55, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Electronic_cigarette#Merge Discussion - Sub articles Safety, Aerosol, and E-liquid
Would an experienced editor please close this merge discussion? Its been open 7 days and no responses for 4 days. (Initiated 7 days ago on 7 December 2015) Consensus should be easy to see, but outside closing is preferred to eliminate future issues. Please see [4] for an earlier discussion on the topic that prompted the merge discussion. AlbinoFerret 07:10, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#G6_for_default_Article_Wizard_text
Discussion had turned stale. A clear consensus exists. 103.6.159.76 (talk) 16:27, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
Community discussion regarding disruptive edits to Heathenry-themed articles
I propose a community-discussion with regards to implementing a topic ban on User:Thor Lives that would prohibit them from contributing to articles broadly related to Paganism, and more specifically to the Pagan religion of Heathenry. This is to deal with the fact that they are responsible for disruptive editing on topics of this nature, perhaps motivated by their self-professed adherence to Odinism (a typically right-wing, ethnic-oriented form of Heathenry). More specifically they have a) carried out a range of disruptive edits to the Heathenry article entailing damage to the article and attacks on other editors, b) usurped the GA process to further their aims, and c) created a coat rack article.
During August and September they were particularly active on the Heathenry page, where they engaged in repeated edit warring,[5] [6] [7] [8] [9] acted against two consensus decisions (by both renaming the article to their chosen title [10] [11] [12] and adding disputed material [13]), deleted text that was sourced to (academic) reliable-references because they didn't like what it had to say [14] [15] [16], and repeatedly added citations to non-reliable references in order to push possibly fringe views, meanwhile erroneously insisting that primary sources should be used [17] [18]. On the talk page and elsewhere they engaged in personal attacks against other editors [19] [20], made false allegations of sock puppetry [21], actively misrepresented the actions and arguments of their critics [22] [23] [24] [25] and engaged in "outing", a serious form of Harassment [26] [27]. Throughout, I was forced to resort to RfCs and temporary blocks on editing the article to prevent the disruptive behaviour.
After their disruptive editing on the Heathenry page was thwarted by myself and other editors, Thor Lives focused his attentions on the Odinism page, which, as User:Snowded has pointed out, has basically been formed into a coatrack article in which Thor Lives has repeated many of the problems that were raised over at Heathenry (adding non-reliable references, pursuing an 'insider' Odinist agenda etc).
Most recently, when I nominated the Heathenry article at GAN earlier this week, Thor Lives nominated himself as reviewer (despite having never reviewed a GAN before) and from his comments it was apparent that he simply wanted to use this process as a platform to try and force his (previously rejected) ideas onto the article. Pointing this out to him, I terminated the GAN and re-nominated it. However, at this second GAN he again presented himself as a reviewer, at which I had to terminate yet again, and re-nominate for a third time. This pattern of disruptive editing has been going on for at least four months now, and is having a real detrimental effect on these Paganism-themed articles and a draining impact on the constructive editors working to improve them. Accordingly, I think that we need to have a community discussion about how to deal with this problem, with my suggestion being that a topic ban might be needed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:39, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Initial discussion
- Two comments, and I'll ignore everything else. (1) All GA reviewers have to start somewhere, but GA reviewers must be "unaffiliated" with the article; if you've previously been active in the article and/or its talk page, you have no business reviewing it for GA. If you keep it up, you need to be sanctioned. (2) The two outing diffs aren't outing; he's saying basically "From your editing, it looks like you're this guy". If he were outing you, he would say "Hello, name", not "Hello, name (or one of his acolytes)". Looking at a user's contributions and guessing thereby at the identity of its owner isn't fundamentally different from identifying sockpuppets by behavioral evidence (both are WP:DUCK), although of course it can be done in a harassing manner. No comment on whether it's non-outing harassment. Nyttend (talk) 14:27, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- I can't see anything about outing? Am I missing something? Otherwise I think it is time for a sanction, three attempts to usurp the GA process following a history of edit warring should be enough. The coat rack article really needs to be nominated for deletion. ----Snowded TALK 14:45, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Are you saying that you see no evidence of outing in Midnightblueowl's links, or you're confused about my comments? If the former, I agree. If the latter, look for the word "serious" (it only appears once in this section, as of now) and follow the diffs immediately after it. Nyttend (talk) 14:56, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- ThorLives' opened a conversation with me starting with "Hello, Mark Ludwig Stinson (or one of his acolytes)", and continued with "you seem to be Mr. Stinson or one of his followers". That seems like a clear attempt to establish my 'real world' identity (correctly or not, it doesn't matter) and thus a breach of our anti-Outing policy. As our policy says, "Posting another editor's personal information is harassment... Personal information includes legal name... Do not treat incorrect attempts at outing any differently from correct attempts". ThorLives tried to identify my 'real life' identity and make it public here on Wikipedia. That seems like a contravention of the Outing policy to me, but I appreciate that other editors here might disagree with me on that. Either way, it is merely one component of a much wider campaign of disruptive editing, the evidence for which is abundant. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:03, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- I concur that it's a clear example of attempted outing. --Errant (chat!) 15:06, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- (ec). I stand to be corrected if it was more than just a wild accusation. Thor seems to throw out accusations based on assumptions about people who oppose his view. I didn't take that too seriously. So no evidence of outing (the former Nyttend). The overall point is that we have a very disruptive editor here - there is the need for some sanction of restriction ----Snowded TALK 15:07, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- With regard to our outing policy, I'm not sure that it really matters whether it was a wild accusation or a more concerted and deliberate attempt; either way, it was a contravention of the policy. The intent behind it is not of particular importance, imo. However, I certainly concur with your latter point, Snowded; the issue of outing is not the main issue here but merely one aspect of a wider problem which needs to be dealt with through sanctions. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:16, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Not sure where Thor got the idea that you're Stinson; your times-of-editing patterns are in line with your claim to be in western Europe, and they're quite bizarre for someone who lives in Kansas City, Missouri. Acolyte isn't made impossible by geography, but it's a stretch unless you've declared such a thing. Either way, it's obviously not some private information; he's guessing from your editing patterns. Meanwhile, if I'd looked at the GA reviewing more carefully before commenting, I may well have blocked for that alone, although (by itself) intentionally messing up the GA process is no grounds for an informal topic ban (e.g. "Make more edits in this field and you'll be blocked") or an outright indefinite block; you'd have to have a discussion like this one. No support because I don't feel like investigating enough to support, but definitely no opposition. Nyttend (talk) 16:58, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
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- @Nyttend: would you therefore perhaps support separate action to deal specifically with the GA disruption issue that is independent to the wider debate surrounding a topic ban to deal with the persistent disruptive editing problem? Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:31, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- It depends. If your proposal passes, there's no need for separate action. However, sanctions are definitely needed somehow, so definitely supporting sanctions for the GA only, if the same thing isn't accomplished for other reasons. Nyttend (talk) 17:32, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- If I may, I shall divide this section into two then; one to deal specifically with the GAN issues, and one to deal with the possible topic ban. That way editors such as yourself can contribute to the former without having to commit themselves to the latter. Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:37, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- It depends. If your proposal passes, there's no need for separate action. However, sanctions are definitely needed somehow, so definitely supporting sanctions for the GA only, if the same thing isn't accomplished for other reasons. Nyttend (talk) 17:32, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Nyttend: would you therefore perhaps support separate action to deal specifically with the GA disruption issue that is independent to the wider debate surrounding a topic ban to deal with the persistent disruptive editing problem? Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:31, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
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- Not sure where Thor got the idea that you're Stinson; your times-of-editing patterns are in line with your claim to be in western Europe, and they're quite bizarre for someone who lives in Kansas City, Missouri. Acolyte isn't made impossible by geography, but it's a stretch unless you've declared such a thing. Either way, it's obviously not some private information; he's guessing from your editing patterns. Meanwhile, if I'd looked at the GA reviewing more carefully before commenting, I may well have blocked for that alone, although (by itself) intentionally messing up the GA process is no grounds for an informal topic ban (e.g. "Make more edits in this field and you'll be blocked") or an outright indefinite block; you'd have to have a discussion like this one. No support because I don't feel like investigating enough to support, but definitely no opposition. Nyttend (talk) 16:58, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- With regard to our outing policy, I'm not sure that it really matters whether it was a wild accusation or a more concerted and deliberate attempt; either way, it was a contravention of the policy. The intent behind it is not of particular importance, imo. However, I certainly concur with your latter point, Snowded; the issue of outing is not the main issue here but merely one aspect of a wider problem which needs to be dealt with through sanctions. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:16, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- ThorLives' opened a conversation with me starting with "Hello, Mark Ludwig Stinson (or one of his acolytes)", and continued with "you seem to be Mr. Stinson or one of his followers". That seems like a clear attempt to establish my 'real world' identity (correctly or not, it doesn't matter) and thus a breach of our anti-Outing policy. As our policy says, "Posting another editor's personal information is harassment... Personal information includes legal name... Do not treat incorrect attempts at outing any differently from correct attempts". ThorLives tried to identify my 'real life' identity and make it public here on Wikipedia. That seems like a contravention of the Outing policy to me, but I appreciate that other editors here might disagree with me on that. Either way, it is merely one component of a much wider campaign of disruptive editing, the evidence for which is abundant. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:03, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Are you saying that you see no evidence of outing in Midnightblueowl's links, or you're confused about my comments? If the former, I agree. If the latter, look for the word "serious" (it only appears once in this section, as of now) and follow the diffs immediately after it. Nyttend (talk) 14:56, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- I can't see anything about outing? Am I missing something? Otherwise I think it is time for a sanction, three attempts to usurp the GA process following a history of edit warring should be enough. The coat rack article really needs to be nominated for deletion. ----Snowded TALK 14:45, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
GAN specific sanctions
As per the discussion above involving User:Nyttend and User:Snowded, this section is being established to deal with the proposal that ThorLives face sanctions specifically for their actions over at the GANs for Heathenry (new religious movement). It is not a place to debate the response to their wider pattern of disruptive editing, which will be dealt with separately in a different section below. Any editor may contribute to either section or both. Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:41, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Hesitant to do this, as it's a potential distraction from the potentially bigger issue. I was suggesting GA-related sanctions basically as a backup to the other: if sanctions are warranted for the heathenism issue, the GA-related issue will be trivial, while if they aren't, we can deal with the GA after that. Let's just stick with the side suggestions that Snowded and I have made, along with others' similar suggestions if they get made. Nyttend (talk) 17:44, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
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- Okay, I am happy to put this discussion on ice for the time being. Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:47, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Proposed topic ban
- Support Topic Ban from Heathenry, religion and anything remotely related. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:14, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Support as nominator: My recommendation would be a topic ban on Heathenry, all forms of modern Paganism, and ancient/medieval Germanic society (three subjects closely interlinked with Odinism). Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:20, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose check the talk page completely, Odin has made suggestions that were upheld on the talk page, not all of them , to be sure, but some of his contributions were positive. Also, he seems to be having the same problem a lot of researchers have when they first come to Wikipedia, I'd hate to seem him T-Banned over it, rather, if he'll accept a mentor, he could learn and become a positive contributor.KoshVorlon 16:51, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
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- With respect Kosh, I disagree. It was not claimed that ThorLives' edits were 100% negative, because they aren't: he is not a vandal and no doubt wants to "improve" the encyclopedia as he sees fit. However, the patterns of constant, recurring disruptive editing are very clear, and surely that cancels out any meager positive contribution that he has made? At what point does some small positive contribution redeem both the damage to the articles themselves and all the stress and annoyance caused to constructive editors who have to make repairs and put up with abusive remarks as they do so? (You note that he has "made suggestions that were upheld on the talk page" but from what I can see the only time this happened was when he recommended in passing that we add more information about Ragnarok into the article, which I myself endorsed. Everything else has been non-constructive at best, often disruptive, and sometimes abusive). Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:12, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Moreover, I disagree with your presentation of him as a newcomer who just needs a bit more gentle guidance in how to use Wikipedia. He has been an active user since at least November 2011, which is more than enough time to learn the ropes and gain an understanding of policy. Further, if you read through that talk page, related user talk pages, and the page edit summaries, you will see that he has been made aware of how his actions contravene policy again and again and again (by myself and others). We keep linking him to the specific policies and explaining what he has done wrong and how to avoid it next time, but we're just being ignored; this can be seen for instance in his repeated attempts to incorporate primary sources by Odinist authors into both this article and related ones (namely his coatrack at Odinism), despite the fact that we have repeatedly explained how and why this is against our reliable sourcing policy. I could cite multiple other examples, but I don't want to bore you. He just doesn't appear to care about adhering to Wikipedia's policies, as is reflected in such statements as "Wikipedia jargon does not interest me." Frankly, I don't see how someone who has no interest in learning how Wikipedia operates and who is repeatedly disruptive is going to change their tune all of a sudden and become constructive and civil. Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:12, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
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- To be fair, it is okay to use primary sources in an article on the primary source if they are being used appropriately to reflect what it is the primary source believes. However from taking a quick look at the talk page Thor is not doing that. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:16, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Support topic ban per nominator. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:32, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Support as an infrequent contributor to the article, and a witness to ThorLives' repeated efforts to impose his personal views on the article. Stormkith (talk) 07:37, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Support topic ban per nom and recommend mentorship. Viriditas (talk) 00:48, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- Support topic ban unless editor agrees to mentorship ----Snowded TALK 03:26, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- Support topic ban. I've been musing over this for a couple of days, and the more I have looked at this, the more sure I have become that ThorLives is a problem editor. His claims to be an academic in this field are (I am around 90% sure) a lie, which strikes me as exceedingly bad form and a clumsy attempt to have others protect him and help him push his view. His battlefield mentality, disrespectful behaviour (insisting on calling MBO "he" despite her frequent polite requests to the contrary is, alone, problematic), wikilawyering (see the "outing" discussion below, for example), continual refusal to get the point and abuse of Wikipedia processes (edit warring, GA nominations) are typical of POV-pushers. He does not seem to be here to improve Wikipedia, which is regrettable, as he does have at least some knowledge of the subject matter to which he is contributing; with a clearer understanding of Wikipedia policies and, most importantly, a more respectful attitude towards other Wikipedians, he could have been in a position to make very valuable contributions to this area. Josh Milburn (talk) 09:56, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- Support a regrettable but necessary topic ban on the editor in question. I've looked into this and, after seeing a number of their edits to the page in question, I've seen enough. The editor in question is exhibiting all the typical characteristics of a POV editor pushing their own personal non-neutral, non-academic, and in this case, right-wing views. The fact that they are averse to the policies of Wikipedia is particularly disturbing. Their disruptive edits speak for themselves. On the other hand, I am familiar with the nominator Midnightblueowl, whom I have worked with off an on here on Wikipedia over a period of many years (we have written a few Featured Articles together) and, after seeing a number of their edits to the page in question, am reassured of her usual high-quality ethics and expertise. Prhartcom (talk) 14:29, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
It has been four days since this debate opened (and two since anyone new cast a vote), and we now have eight votes in support of a topic ban and one in opposition. That seems pretty conclusive, and accordingly I think that we should administer a topic ban on ThorLives, preventing him from editing articles on Heathenry and broadly related topics (which would include articles on contemporary Paganism, related forms of religion, and Germanic society more widely). As I understand it, that would include banning him from changing redirects or posting on talk pages, GANs, peer reviews, and FACs related to those subjects (particularly as ThorLives has used GANs and talk pages as a place to edit disruptively). However, is it premature to bring this to an end and enforce the sanction after so few days? If not, it there an administrator who might bring this about (or can any editor do it)? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:36, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- You could request a closure here, perhaps. Josh Milburn (talk) 17:54, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- That's a good idea. I have just done so. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:03, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose/Alternate restriction The editor has made some useful contributions. I suggest they be page-banned from Heathenry (new religious movement) but not its talk page, and topic banned from the subject of Midnightblueowl. Rhoark (talk) 20:27, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
- With respect Rhoark, what are those useful contributions? The only example that I can see is a single comment recommending that we could expand our coverage of Heathen beliefs about Ragnarok in the article. And even if you believe that there are a few more, how do these outweigh the constant disruptiveness? Does 5% constructive behaviour counterbalance 95% disruptive behaviour? Further, I don't see how a page ban would help at all; the editor has shown that they are also disruptively editing on other related articles (such as their coatrack at Odinism) as well as on related Talk Pages and GANs. A page ban that purely protects one particular article would offer little benefit and would not deal with the fundamental problem at all. It would be like trying to deal with a freshly severed limb by applying a band aid. A topic ban is completely necessary. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:10, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
- Support The Heathenry article is quite good. The Odinist coatrack borders on being unreadable. The Heathenry talk page also displays an editor that simply doesn't get RS or consensus and seems unwilling to learn it. One also has to question the claimed expertise of a supposed academic that is unaware that Germanic refers to historic peoples who shared Germanic languages and a certain commonality in culture as opposed to modern day Germany. Capeo (talk) 05:15, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
Update as of 18 November: A week has now passed, and we now have nine votes in support of a topic ban and two in opposition. At the risk of being accused of launching an ad hominem attack, it may be pertinent and of interest to users here that ThorLives is also currently being investigated for sock puppetry here, including the use of a sock puppet to continue their edits to Odinism and thus avoid further scrutiny of the ThorLives account. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:04, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
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- What a coincidence! Holtj has been dormant since 2008, magically reappears the day after ThorLives' last edit, and carries on right where ThorLives left off, even mentioning him by name on the talkpage: "CHECK THE EDITS OF THORLIVES. HE IS A PHD WHO LEFT WIKIPEDIA BECUASE OF THE ENDLESS ATTACKS OF THE PERSON ABOVE".--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 02:12, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
ThorLives' response
If I am violating some wikipdia policy, I send my regrets. Frankly, as a sixty-five year university professor, I am rather confused by all of the various rules and regulations.
I do know academic content, however, and at various times I have tried to prevent wholesale changes that one person was making to articles connected to Germanic neopaganism. All of my attempted edits to Germanic neopaganism have been reversed by (talk) Midnightblueowl. Also, when I attempt to act in defense, he repeatedly tries to have me banned or blocked. (I believe this is the fourth time he has attacked me. )
I have made many complaints on the talk page, but the main problem is neutrality. The article, as presently constituted, draws almost exclusively from the work of left-wing Norse pagans, many (like Dr. Snook) have been expelled from mainline groups such as the Asatru Folk Assembly. I attached a tag challenging the neutrality of the article, but it was deleted by the same person who rewrote the entire article and then nominated the piece as a "good article."
The present article also contains many errors of fact. I would correct them, but my edits on this article have all been deleted by the person who rewrote it. Example: the word for one of the souls is typically hugr--not hugh. (Norse pagans use Old Norse terms) I have also complained when the article was renamed Heathenry. The neutral term is Germanic neopaganism. Stephen McNallen, an American Asatru leader, avoids "heathen" because in the "public mind" it means an "ignorant, superstitious, or uncouth person." Stephen A. McNallen. Asatru: A Native European Spirituality. Runestone Press. 2015. p. 2 ISBN 0972029257.
Likewise, Dr. Michael Strmiska, a pagan who studies the subject, [28] made this observation: "I prefer Norse-Germanic Paganism as a catch-all term that covers all relevant bases and slights none."
Regarding banning me from the topic, I am a professor who lectures and writes on the topic. Indeed, Midnightblueowl even uses me as a source in her edits! I would identify myself, but Midnightblueowl seems to be a belligerent person.
For the record, I have never tried to block or ban him. --ThorLives (talk) 00:41, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
--ThorLives (talk) 00:34, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- I've made it quite clear to you that I use female gender pronouns, ThorLives. You can convince yourself that I'm a man and that my profile is a total ruse all you want, but at least show me the respect of using the pronouns that I ask you to use. It is basic courtesy. Further, while your statement that you have "never tried to block or ban" me might be quite correct, it also brings up an important point: I have not done anything to warrant being blocked or banned. Conversely, you have.
- As for ThorLives' claim that he has been cited by me, I can see that not a single one of the academics whom I have referenced in the Heathenry article fit the profile of a 65-year old male Odinist who works as a university professor. Not one. This, coupled with several observations made by both myself and Bloodofox here, cast strong doubt as to the claimed academic credentials of ThorLives. An academic with a specialism in the subject matter would not make the basic errors of fact that ThorLives has made. They would be accustomed to structuring their argument in a logical and well-thought out manner, which is quite the opposite of ThorLives' rambling, disjointed, and poorly written style of commenting. They would be intelligent enough to master the comparatively simple rules and regulations of Wikipedia in a short period of time. If well acquainted with the field of religious studies, they would not make such an erroneous claim as "When studying a religion... an academic would rather talk to a pope than someone sitting in a pew in Philadelphia" (ever heard of the anthropology of religion, sociology of religion, or psychology of religion?). They would surely be more likely to refer to colleagues like Michael Strmiska and Jennifer Snook as "a religious studies scholar" or "sociologist of religion" respectively, rather than as "a pagan who studies the subject" and a "left-wing Norse pagan". Further, I very much doubt that they would condemn the citation of some of their colleague's publications simply because these individuals were "left-wing".
- All in all, ThorLives has not exhibited any trait that I would associate with an established, older academic and university professor; instead, they have exhibited many traits that I would associate with a (possibly quite young) individual who has little or no familiarity with academia beyond perhaps reading a few scholarly books or, at best, a basic undergraduate course. It would certainly not be stretching the imagination to suggest that the "I'm an older university professor with a PhD" claim which ThorLives has repeatedly employed is simply a ruse to gain recognition as an intellectual authority from other Wikipedia editors. I can't help but suspect that there might be some relevance to a comment that they made on my talk page in which they declared that they admired editors who used "cunning" and "disinformation trick[s]" on Wikipedia. After all, what better way to try and gain kudos on an encyclopedia than to declare "Trust me. I am a published academic." Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:09, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
To be clear, every edit that I ever made to Heathenry (new religious movement) was deleted by Midnightblueowl. Usually, the deletions were immediate. (Normally, I was simply adding references.) Because I had no edits to the page, I thought I could comment on his nomination of the article as a "good article." --ThorLives (talk) 20:31, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Question: So a person (Midnightblueowl) can hijack and article, rename it (the neutral term is Germanic Neopaganism, not heathenry), delete the edits of everyone else, and nominate his own article as a good article, and then ban someone who complains about the quality of the article?
If that is the rule, I can respect it, but it looks rather unfair. --ThorLives (talk) 20:31, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- My edits are being totally misrepresented here. Similarly, ThorLives has omitted key details regarding these events in order to present their own actions as innocent and constructive, which they demonstrably weren't. All of the information that I deleted on the Heathenry article was either a) un-referenced, b) referenced using non-reliable primary sources, or c) otherwise referenced inappropriately (for instance using sources about pre-Christian belief systems to support claims being made about new religious movements). As policy dictates, it therefore required removal. Further, I did not unilaterally change the page name from "Germanic neopaganism" to "Heathenry" but rather (at the suggestion of another editor) initiated an RfC discussion on the subject, which resulted in a group consensus to move the article name to that most commonly used in academic reliable sources. Thor Lives then embarked on an edit war to restore his favoured title until multiple un-involved editors stopped him.
- Hence, claiming that I have "hijacked" the article and am somehow a problematic editor is frankly preposterous and is simply a tactic to divert attention from Thor Lives' own disruptive actions and total disregard for policy and consensus building. Similarly, his claim that he is being threatened with a ban simply for "complain[ing] about the quality of the article" is again flagrantly (and, I believe, deliberately) ignoring the real reason why sanctions are being sought against him, which have been laid out ever so clearly. Once again, he is knowingly playing the innocent, presumably in the hope that this well help him to evade sanctions so that he can go right back to his disruptive editing ways. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:01, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Several new points (before I leave.)
This is quickly becoming a wiki version of "Gresham's Law," that the bad will always drive out the good. (In other words, it appears I will be forced out.)
After Midnightblueowl hijacked Germanic Neopaganism, I started to make extensive edits on Odinism. Notice the wide variety of sources used. Notice also the neutrality of the aricle. Midnightblueowl in his Heathenry article mentions Odinists only to discredit them as "racists,"(the word Americans use), but not all Odinists are white separatists.
Midnightblueowl claims he used neutral academic sources only. Again, because he is not widely read in the field, he seems not to know that virtually ALL of his sources are pagan professors (including me.) Snook, Strmiska, Harvey, Blain, and so forth are pagans. Because professors tend to be liberal, they are all leftist. For proper balance, he must use other sources.
--ThorLives (talk) 22:18, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Again, I've asked that you please use female pronouns when referring to me; in doing the precise opposite, you are quite clearly setting out to annoy and offend, once again reflecting a total lack of respect for your fellow Wikipedians. Of course I am aware that many of the academics operating within Pagan studies are practicing Pagans (including Snook, Strmiska, Harvey, and Blain) as all make that clear within their publications, and the fact that I have included virtually every academic study on Heathenry ever published in the sources of the Heathenry article testifies to the fact that I am fairly well read within that field (it should be noted that in no way, shape, or form has ThorLives demonstrated anywhere near the same level of academic reading). Similarly, if you check my edits, you will see that in no way did I mention Odinists merely to call them "racists"; your claim to that effect is demonstrably false.
- Moreover, if you want editors to compare the articles on Heathenry (new religious movement) and Odinism for themselves, then I would be happy for them to do so. They will see that the former is informative and well constructed; the latter poorly written and messy. The former is based on an exhaustive use of almost all academic publications on the subject; the latter has been put together using whatever unreliable references ThorLives happens to favour. The former is a useful article that will benefit those interested in the subject; the latter is simply a coatrack. Perhaps most importantly, I believe that the former will be recognised as a Good Article for its adherence to Wikipedia guidelines and policies; the latter makes a total mockery of those, serving simply as a platform for ThorLives' own perspective on the religious movement to which he belongs. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:53, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Midnightblueowl wrote: As for ThorLives' claim that he has been cited by me, I can see that not a single one of the academics whom I have referenced in the Heathenry article fit the profile of a 65-year old male Odinist who works as a university professor. Not one
Trying to "out me" here? Is that not a violation of the wiki rules you are always citing?
As for the "65-year old [sic] male Odinist who works as a university professor," I confess I altered some details to protect myself. (Age, gender, or both?) Midnightblueowl has engaged in threatening behavior, so I cannot chance that he would use information about my identity to attack my books or my reputation.
I have never tried to have him banned. I have never threatened him. His behavior (as this banning attempt demonstrates) has been belligerent.
Indeed, perhaps the prudent thing would be for me to leave wikipedia.
Cheers! --ThorLives (talk) 22:33, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Erm... no, I'm not trying to out you nor threaten you. At no point did I state that "You are Mr X", "I think that you are Mrs Y", or "all signs point to you being Mr P" and I most certainly didn't say that "I'm going to find you off-Wikipedia and harass you there by tarnishing your reputation". All I stated was that the claims that you made – that you were a 65 year old university professor with a PhD whose publications were cited in the Heathenry article – were demonstrably not true because none of the cited authors fitted that description, and that moreover your wider actions have cast strong doubt on your claims to having any substantial academic background at all. In effect, you were making false claims in order to bolster your credibility in the eyes of other Wikipedia editors, and I called you out on it. That's not outing. Maybe in the 'real world' you really are an author, perhaps writing Odinist books and articles in non-academic contexts, and perhaps even being something of a notable within the Odinist community. If so, good for you. I have absolutely no interest in harassing or upsetting you as a fellow human being in any way, shape or form; my sole focus has been in preventing you from disruptive editing here at Wikipedia so that the encyclopedia can progress and improve under the care of constructive contributors. Outside of the encyclopedia, it's a different ballpark, and a different game. Midnightblueowl (talk) 23:01, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Edit request backlog
The list of conflict-of-interest requested edits is at an all-time high of 130 requests; also, the list of semi-protected edit requests is also abnormally high, currently at 101. Any assistance in clearing the backlog is highly appreciated. There's another reason for urgency: while some PR editors initially comply with Wikipedia's COI editing protocol by making a talk page request, after weeks of silence they assume that their edits must meet our guidelines owing to the lack of objections, and make the edit themselves. Closer scrutiny by the community would probably have disallowed such changes. Many of the articles with pending COI edit requests are already littered with promotional material, and in the wake of the Orangemoody scandal, we should be doing all we can to clean up. Thanks, Altamel (talk) 02:49, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
Challenging ISIL community sanction
I motion to challenge WP:GS/SCW&ISIL with respect to ISIL in general, and the November 2015 Paris attacks article and directly related articles in particular. These community-imposed sanctions were progressively expanded starting from, if I understand things correctly, arguably-related ArbCom-imposed Israel-Palestinian sanctions, first [Syria] and then to ISIL, by allowing the "broadly construed" specification to let discussions with little participation ratify the broadening of scope.
I am not sure this really qualifies as "community consensus" for community-authorized sanctions, or even if community-authorized discretionary sanctions are a reasonable thing, but even if it does and they are, I believe this claimed consensus can be challenged on the grounds that less than a dozen editors formed it, while on Talk:November 2015 Paris attacks a comparable number of editors impugned it or objected to the application of the sanctions.
In fact, this sequence of events happened on the article's talk page:
- the original proponent of the Syria sanctions placed a notice that they were in effect
- I objected on the ground that keeping the recent high-traffic article under a strict WP:1RR policy would discourage editors such as myself
- An administrator removed the sanctions template under a multi-facted rationale
- There was support for this action, as well denouncing that the "broad construction" of these sanctions makes their scope indefinite
- I complained about receiving an 1RR warning notice shortly after I had newly objected to the sanctions, as a perceived act of intimidation fro mediting (the sender later assured me it was not, but I still think that's the practical effect, especially given the notice allows subsequent blocking without further warning)
- Proponents of the sanctions pointed out they still applied, regardless of the presence or absence of any template
- Fuzheado again removed the sanctions template with an explanation, although it was again pointed out that sanctions would apply anyway; but Fuzheado explained that the most important immediate outcome was to stop scaring editors away
Although the various points against the sanctions (at least on the particular article) were repeatedly stated in some of the above-linked diffs, I will make a summary:
- The community had created a decent working dynamic on the article without 1RR enforcement
- This is a current-events article with issues that are not primarily Syria and ISIL-related
- The potential for block with two reverts may have a chilling effect, when it's hard to follow the fast and often spurious edits
- Almost all editors involved at this point would be unable to revert without risking an immediate block, except for drive-by editors
- It's not an article among the ones in contention from the original and subsequently widely expanded ArbCom case
It is certainly due to my bias, but the points for the sanctions I could read basically amounted to:
- They were approved before
Therefore, I ask you to consider the following two questions:
- Shall WP:GS/SCW&ISIL continue to apply unchanged on articles like November 2015 Paris attacks where there are arguably exceptional circumstances and a locally shared opposition to actively applying them?
- Shall the current "broadly constructed" scope of these sanctions undergo new scrutiny and possible narrowing, considering it was previously expanded with little community input?
- Shall the sanctions continue to exist at all?
My use of emphasis above is to underline the salient points of this motion as I recognize it is a relatively long read. LjL (talk) 18:39, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
- Comment - the WP:GS/SCW&ISIL sanctions ARE NOT related with WP:ARBPIA. There is similarity in concept, but that is it.GreyShark (dibra) 18:44, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
-
- I thought, by reading the archived discussion, that the Syrian sanctions were created because there was uncertainty as to whether the ARBPIA sanctions applied to the Syrian war (they were applied in that way, but then successfully challenged). If I'm mistaken, can you clarify? LjL (talk) 18:53, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
- I believe that to be correct. What it seems happened was gradual de facto broadening of scope, caused by the slippery "broadly construed"-type language that is often used. Some administrators originally applied the ARBPIA sanctions to Syrian Civil War stuff, thinking that stuff related in a "broadly construed" manner. This became confusing, so ArbCom established a temporary 30 day sanctions regime specifically for the Syrian Civil War, which was then replaced with community sanctions that mirrored the ARBPIA remedy. Following this, with the rise of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, and their entry into other fields, administrators began applying the SCW community sanctions to all ISIL-related articles, on the basis of a "broadly construed" connection to the Syrian Civil War. For this reason, I requested a clarification at AN, whereby the relevant administrators confirmed that they believed that this linkage was correct. RGloucester — ☎ 18:59, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
- That is my understanding, too. I read that the first community discussion was started "to determine whether there is consensus to continue the restrictions in effect as community-based restrictions", the restrictions in effect being the impromptu 30-day ones made by ArbCom after the ARBPIA sanctions were deemed to have been incorrectly applied as the disputes did not "fit the general category of Arab-Israeli disputes", so it seems to me the restrictions are very directly related. LjL (talk) 19:06, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
- I'm one of the people behind the installations of Syrian Civil War sanctions. Originally, the community demanded a sanctioned regime for Syrian Civil War articles and some administrator incorrectly applied ARBPIA, even though there is no direct relation. Then i asked to clarify this and answer the demand of the community by creating SCW sanctions and not trying to bend other sanctions. Syrian Civil War sanctions were then initiated following a community motion, with a wide consensus. Later, without my involvement another group of users expanded the SCW sanctions also to ISIL with the intervention of ArbCom. This is how SCW&ISIL sanction regime was created. If you ask me - it works great: much less edit-warring as a result.GreyShark (dibra) 22:10, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
- That is my understanding, too. I read that the first community discussion was started "to determine whether there is consensus to continue the restrictions in effect as community-based restrictions", the restrictions in effect being the impromptu 30-day ones made by ArbCom after the ARBPIA sanctions were deemed to have been incorrectly applied as the disputes did not "fit the general category of Arab-Israeli disputes", so it seems to me the restrictions are very directly related. LjL (talk) 19:06, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
- I believe that to be correct. What it seems happened was gradual de facto broadening of scope, caused by the slippery "broadly construed"-type language that is often used. Some administrators originally applied the ARBPIA sanctions to Syrian Civil War stuff, thinking that stuff related in a "broadly construed" manner. This became confusing, so ArbCom established a temporary 30 day sanctions regime specifically for the Syrian Civil War, which was then replaced with community sanctions that mirrored the ARBPIA remedy. Following this, with the rise of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, and their entry into other fields, administrators began applying the SCW community sanctions to all ISIL-related articles, on the basis of a "broadly construed" connection to the Syrian Civil War. For this reason, I requested a clarification at AN, whereby the relevant administrators confirmed that they believed that this linkage was correct. RGloucester — ☎ 18:59, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
- I thought, by reading the archived discussion, that the Syrian sanctions were created because there was uncertainty as to whether the ARBPIA sanctions applied to the Syrian war (they were applied in that way, but then successfully challenged). If I'm mistaken, can you clarify? LjL (talk) 18:53, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
A similar problem is happening on Metrojet_Flight_9268. There is less and less controversy over ISIL, with pretty much everyone saying they are bad. The exceptions are punk trouble maker editors and/or johadists who come along and put pro-ISIL propaganda in. Any post I've made saying the sanctions apply should only be interpreted as affirming their existence, not as necessarily my support for them continuing. Legacypac (talk) 00:33, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Support pulling back on over-application of the "discretionary sanctions" that are "broadly constructed," as prescribed in the WP:GS/SCW&ISIL guidelines. With no disrespect to the original folks who implemented them – the fact that we cannot even agree on whether it is an Arbcom or WP:AN edict should give us a clue that the entire situation is not very well understood or constructed. Also, only a small number of users were involved with that discussion that has massive impact across EN.WP's 5 million articles. We should open up the discussion for better context.
- A summary of the main conflict as described above:
- For breaking news articles, it is extremely problematic to have the pall of the discretionary sanctions hanging over the page, which amounts to a one revert rule (1RR) being imposed on an article in flux. Whether it is intended or not, it creates a low tolerance, "assume bad faith" climate where it is very easy to accidentally run afoul of the guidelines, and wind up as a user block.
- If we consider the November 2015 Paris attacks page, which was the #2 most visited page last week, you get lots of visitors and even returning editors. You also have a number of admins monitoring the page. The vast majority of the article is not about the Islamic State per se, and instead hosts a lot of experienced Wikipedians trying to sift fact from fiction in the news cycle. Things were going fine, until the discretionary sanctions template was put at the top, and then a flurry of accusations about 1RR started to fly. It turned into a wiki circular firing squad.
- Out of WP:COMMONSENSE, I removed the template and proposed that we do away with the hair-trigger application of WP:GS/SCW&ISIL. There was generally positive response from the editors on that page that it was removed. There was another exchange of adding the template to Talk, and subsequent removal by me.
- That's we are now. I offer that it's a very bad mismatch to try to impose remedies suited for long form historical articles onto fast-moving, obliquely-related current events articles. I'm assuming good faith by believing that there was a decent rationale (with limited scope) for the discretionary sanctions, but I think this is a classic example of Hard cases make bad law, and we should have a chance to fix the overly broad application of this. -- Fuzheado | Talk 18:18, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
-
- Two points. First of all, there is no question of "agreement". These are community sanctions, not ArbCom sanctions, even though ArbCom was briefly involved at the start. That's crystal clear. Secondly, you must understand that we are not a newspaper. Our job here is not to write articles as if we were covering breaking news. All of our articles should be in a "long form historical" style. Slowing down editing on a controversial current events article is something to be applauded, not rejected. Finally, I wonder whether you oppose the 1RR or the discretionary sanctions, or both? Perhaps the 1RR could be pulled back, whilst maintaining the discretionary sanctions. RGloucester — ☎ 21:04, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Comment - It's broadly construed, not constructed. That's the extent of my competence in this area, and of my contribution to this discussion. 72.198.26.61 (talk) 19:49, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose removing the sanctions. Yes, the presence of discretionary sanctions and the 1RR restriction might slow down editing. That's a good thing. Per RGloucester's comment we are not a news wire service, we're an encyclopedia. We can approach the subject calmly and thoughtfully. And the restrictions will prevent the usual nonsense that occurs with high traffic, current event articles. Volunteer Marek 06:56, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- And, uh, to try and argue that this article is NOT Syria or ISIS related is... um.... disingenuous, to put it nicely. Volunteer Marek 06:57, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose As per VM. The argument that it is preventing rapid updates on current events is not a bad thing. Likewise arguing that this is not Syria/ISIS related is... interesting to say the least. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:38, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose – Having thought about it more, I have to oppose any proposal to pull back the community sanctions (1RR and DS) in this area. Frankly, this topic area is one of the most fraught on Wikipedia. The sanctions have shown to be effective in preventing disruption across SCW and ISIL articles for years. We should thank the administrators who have worked to quicly enforce these sanctions, as well. There is no reason to provide an exception for this one article, which is ISIL-related, and attracts the same kind of controversy as at all the SCW & ISIL pages. Pulling back the sanctions across all SCW and ISIL pages would undoubtedly be detrimental. I imagine that if the sanctions were pulled back, we'd end up with an ArbCom case for this topic area in future, and that's something we want to avoid, no? I have worked on plenty of articles under DS and 1RR, and have never had any problems contributing. As I said above, we are not a newspaper, and have no need to be rapidly updating content as if we were. Encouraging talk page discussion, encouraging editors to think about what they add to such an article, that's a good thing. We want verifiable historical analysis, not every little bit of yellow press. For all these reasons, I must certainly oppose any revocation of the authorisation of these sanctions. RGloucester — ☎ 15:20, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose – it's been working fine as-is. Don't reinvent the wheel. 98.67.1.155 (talk) 21:51, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Comment: here are a couple of examples of these sanctions being directly used to have a chilling effect: "I will report anyone that exceeds 1RR", "In any case, i will issue a personal warning and/or file a case for any violation of the sanctions". These imply that there won't be, at least from the part of those editors, any discerning on whether there is an actual edit war in progress or just any technical violation of 1RR (coming from partial or unrelated reverts, for example), something which had been used as "common sense" explanation that the sanctions would only be applied when really deserved. I'm not sure I want to risk my editing privileges over people trying to make a WP:POINT by reporting every possible thing... LjL (talk) 22:44, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- These can't be "chilling effects" since "chilling effects" refer to ... effects. What you are linking to is just reminders to editors not to edit war. Since you've been reverting and edit warring on that article like crazy I can see how you'd find that objectionable. Volunteer Marek 07:38, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- Report me then. I am the third most prolific contributor to the article and I strongly suspect most editors respect the work I have done there. I'm not sure the same can be said about you, sending people more chilling notices because (sorry, I mean "shortly after", who am I to imply causal links?) they removed the sanctions template again with the agreement of many other editors (even though you promptly re-added it). You have previously accused me of having a WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude, but I'm not entirely sure how you can affirm that while keeping a straight face. LjL (talk) 15:37, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with User:Fuzheado and User:LjL. There is no evidence that these sanctions are needed or have any beneficial effect. Considering the emotive nature of the subject, editing there has been remarkably collegial over the past week. On general principles, the idea of accepting this sort of mission creep from a body with such a poor reputation as ArbCom has, is a terrible one. Wikipedia is not a police state, and should not be encouraged to become one. --John (talk) 11:31, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose the motion. The SCW&ISIL sanctions are an excellent tool to reduce edit-warring and stabilize articles, as already proven in the past.GreyShark (dibra) 18:49, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Stale request to help with related matter concerning myself |
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- Oppose per RGloucester and Volunteer Marek. If edit warring is still going on, then it is way too early to vacate these sanctions. The MMA topics are an excellent example of how sanctions can quiet down editors and really push them to discuss. There wasn't a time back in 2012-13 where not a week went by without a MMA complaing on AN or ANI. Regulars at those boards have barely heard a peep from them once sanctions were enforced. Blackmane (talk) 01:27, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- Note - I don't know why I have made this motion given most of the people who were of the same opinion as me (and I know there were several) have steered very clear of it, but, for the record, this report is an example of the sort of non-constructive application of these overly strict rules that I'm worried about. The editor being reported is, quite obviously to anybody who has followed the evolution of the article involved, one of the top contributors and most constructive editors on it. Now he risks a block for reverting three unrelated, stupid edits. LjL (talk) 17:09, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
-
- WP:OWNERSHIP of an article does not provide exemption from 1RR, and is in fact harmful to the development of articles. RGloucester — ☎ 18:37, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
- Your claim of WP:OWNERSHIP is completely unsubstantiated, unless by "ownership" you mean "having made many positive contribution to an article". LjL (talk) 21:32, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
- WP:OWNERSHIP of an article does not provide exemption from 1RR, and is in fact harmful to the development of articles. RGloucester — ☎ 18:37, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
- Support = Revoke an overreach of the sanction system and restore commonsense because a few editors have used this to push their own agendas. Bod (talk) 04:18, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- Support I object to the imposition of the 1RR at November 2015 Paris attacks. In the talk page discussion about this, we had been assured by RGloucester, who I foolishly thought was an administrator (it turns out he's just an editor who has been blocked seven times) that, "Administrators are not stupid. Common sense applies, as always, in the application of any policy", implying there was nothing to worry about as long as we didn't edit war over ISIL or the Syrian Civil War. In practice, I received a warning for three unrelated non-SCW/ISIL good faith reverts. I feel that the policy has been abused and therefore support LjL's motion. Firebrace (talk) 00:25, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
-
- If you'd read the sanctions page, you'd understand that 1RR is not on imposed on the basis of the content of edits, but on the basis of whether the page is related to the topic under sanctions, broadly construed. You received a notice of the existence of the sanctions some days before that explained this, and yet broke 1RR. 1RR is a bright line, and you should not've made more than one revert in twenty-four hours on that page. That's on you. I never claimed to be administrator. Anyone can issue the DS notices, as I mentioned on the talk page. RGloucester — ☎ 02:23, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Comment There needs to be clarity on when a page is under the restrictions. When you have a "Syrian Civil War" sanction that can kick in on any shooting, anywhere in the world, the moment information starts coming back the shooter was linked with ISIS, there is going to be a long period for each of those highly controversial articles when people are debating whether the restrictions apply or not. That is a sabotage we shouldn't put up with. Either roll back the restriction to include only articles about ISIS itself and battles in Syria, not articles about ISIS actions outside Syria, or else figure out a mechanism by which there is clear and undisputed guidance about whether an article is subject to the restrictions or not. Wnt (talk) 16:46, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
-
- I agree with what you say. However, I think that there is clarity on the scope of the sanctions. The sanctions page says: "All articles related to the Syrian Civil War and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, broadly construed". That makes it clear that any page that has some relation to ISIL is under sanctions. There isn't any room for argument on that matter. The real question, here, is whether the community wants that to be the scope. Does the community want to limit the scope to ISIL actions in the Near East? That would seem absurd, in many respects. Does the community want to limit the scope to matters directly carried out by or involving the organisation of ISIL, as opposed to things inspired by it? It isn't clear. I tend to think that, given the nature of the topic, the GS scope should remain. RGloucester — ☎ 16:51, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- @RGloucester: There is clarity now, more or less, at 2015 San Bernardino shooting, after multiple sources published about an oath of fealty to ISIS. However, for several days the issue was in doubt; as the evidence started coming in, some editors were extremely resistant to even allow the religion of the shooters to be mentioned, let alone to permit discussion of motive. Even recently there was still debate going on whether the shooting is "really" ISIS related rather than a "lone wolf" admiring ISIS. I still think some of the obvious categories are being kept off. So the classification of the article can end up as a political football. Wnt (talk) 19:03, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Wnt is correct. If there is this much disagreement and conflict, the guidance is unclear by definition. "Broadly construed" can be interpreted in multiple ways, and is. This situation was entirely predictable; if you give vague guidance, you simply create new battleground, something Wikipedia has yet to learn in general. But, even if this guidance were crystal clear, the problem would still exist that bright lines (1RR) don't work, as I said in my !vote. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:15, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with what you say. However, I think that there is clarity on the scope of the sanctions. The sanctions page says: "All articles related to the Syrian Civil War and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, broadly construed". That makes it clear that any page that has some relation to ISIL is under sanctions. There isn't any room for argument on that matter. The real question, here, is whether the community wants that to be the scope. Does the community want to limit the scope to ISIL actions in the Near East? That would seem absurd, in many respects. Does the community want to limit the scope to matters directly carried out by or involving the organisation of ISIL, as opposed to things inspired by it? It isn't clear. I tend to think that, given the nature of the topic, the GS scope should remain. RGloucester — ☎ 16:51, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Support - The 2015 San Bernardino shooting article has been tagged as falling within these discretionary sanctions [29], on the basis of a Facebook post reportedly made by one of the perpetrators, in which she pledged allegiance to the caliph of ISIS. The relation to ISIS is as tenuous as that Facebook post. Note that the article is already covered by general sanctions under WP:NEWBLPBAN. - Cwobeel (talk) 19:07, 5 December 2015 (UTC)Oppose - the 1RR restriction is actually helping a lot by slowing down edits, and encouraging discussions. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:14, 9 December 2015 (UTC)- Support - For same reasons as above. ParkH.Davis (talk) 20:10, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose any easing or weakening of the sanctions, if that is the purpose of this proposal. The sanctions are a necessary tool to deal with disruptive editing. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:47, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
-
- As well as to issue edit warring reports over non-disruptive (and actually useful) edits, like User:Firebrace had to experience from User:RGloucester who (see above) appears to believe that just because someone is a "broadly construed" "bright line", you seemingly have a moral duty to report the perpetrator of the heinous crime against humanity of improving the encyclopedia, regardless of any WP:COMMONSENSE or WP:NOTBURO. LjL (talk) 22:18, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Support - Bright lines work about as well as mandatory sentencing laws. Actually not that well, when there is no clear statement of where the bright line is (see Potter Stewart; how do you define obscenity?). Any such simplistic lazy thinking should be abandoned and replaced by these questions: Who is collaborating? Who is discussing? Who is respecting consensus? And who is not? It's not hard at all to discern the difference. These sanctions hinder at least as much as they help. Full disclosure: I commented previously in this discussion, as 72.198.26.61, without !voting. I am now editing logged in again. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:04, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- Support. The template is being arbitrarily applied by lone editors to articles that merely mention ISIL, who then expect contributors to adhere to 1RR. There must be better guidelines developed that clearly differentiate those article types that require the sanction. WWGB (talk) 03:49, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose and "lone editors" are not imposing the sanctions, they automatically flow to articles - especially ones that cover an event where POTUS goes on TV and links to ISIL, a perp pledges to ISIL and the father of the other one says he was into supporting ISIL. ISIL is an evolving topic and keeps generating new articles. Some of the people voting Support here are the ones edit warring to keep out Muslim or ISIL from the article. It's a little cute. Legacypac (talk) 12:30, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose Complete non-starter. If the organization that caused the expansion of the GS is called out in the lead paragraph, it's no stretch of the imagination that the sanctions with respect to the organization should apply under the widely construed argument. It appears the main complaint is that the 1RR is slowing down getting to a consensus version (by restricting reverts). I don't consider that a hinderance but a feature of the GS. If you have already used your
freebiepermitted revert and you think that something is wrong, you open a discussion on the talk page to establish consensus for it's removal. Hasteur (talk) 19:10, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
Can someone please close the TP discussion
Much of the above results from Talk:Reactions_to_the_November_2015_Paris_attacks#Consensus_about_Polish_reactions and a similar discussion elsewhere. Volunteer Marek is still reinstating the POV tag. I have just reverted. Can someone please review that talk page section and close as they see fit, otherwise this could ping-pong in perpetuity. - Sitush (talk) 08:35, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Request for closure
Would an administrator please assess consensus and close this discussion? RGloucester — ☎ 03:29, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
Edit filter RfC
Just a heads up that an RfC is now underway regarding an addition to the edit filter guideline, taking on board some feedback from the RfC for the recently updated page. Opinions welcomed. Sam Walton (talk) 22:54, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
Arbitration motion regarding Removal of Unused Sanctions
Resolved by motion of the Arbitration Committee, that: Every so often, it becomes reasonable to terminate sanctions that are no longer necessary,
- Remedy 1 of the Lapsed Pacifist 2 case is rescinded;
- Remedy 2 of the Mantanmoreland case is rescinded;
- Remedy 1 of the Waterboarding case is rescinded;
- Remedy 1 of the Vivaldi case is rescinded;
- Nothing in this motion provides grounds for appeal of remedies or restrictions imposed while article probations for the foregoing cases were in force. Such appeals or requests to lift or modify such sanctions may be made under the same terms as any other appeal;
- In the event that disruptive editing resumes in any of these topic-areas, a request to consider reinstating discretionary sanctions in that topic-area may be made on the clarifications and amendments page.
For the Arbitration Committee, --L235 (alt / t / c / ping in reply) 21:06, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Arbitration motion regarding Removal of Unused Sanctions
Google Relying on Wikipedia
Google has, for the first time in two years, published their Search Quality Evaluator Guidelines. http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2015/11/updating-our-search-quality-rating.html
The guidelines mention Wikipedia repeatedly (52 times) as a source of useful information. Those trying to maneuver to the top of Google will be here trying to engineer the right kind of content. Please consider familiarizing yourself with the above document, and watching for such activity. Jehochman Talk 21:58, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for that. This document talks about Wikipedia being used to help determine the reputation of websites and companies. It also talks about assessment of authority of Wikipedia articles based on the number of references included. Updated Wikipedia articles are more likely to have a better reputation. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:45, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
New essay
Wikipedia:Administrators' best practices.
I wrote this essay with hopes in exploring in essay-form how certain admin practices look and feel to non-admins with advice offered to admins on how to handle certain controversial interactions.
jps (talk) 12:07, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
- I suppose it had occurred to you that administrators edited here without the tools before they became administrators? Tiderolls 16:48, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
- Of course. Not all experience the full range of possibilities of what it's like to interact with an administrator as a non-administrator, though. Many administrators have never experienced what it's like to be blocked, for example. And many after becoming administrators forget what it's like not to be an administrator. jps (talk) 00:17, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- Well that's generally because they haven't done something necessitating a block. It's amusing when these essays come up for two reasons. Firstly, blocks aren't common for regular editors, and it's hypothetically it's quite hard to get multiple blocks; getting more than 10 blocks is a pretty major feat which, I'd say, demonstrates more about the editor in question than the trail of admins. The second point is, yes, blocks are unpleasant for the person receiving them that's the point. --Errant (chat!) 09:27, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. It does seem to be rather WP:PUNISHing, I'd argue. jps (talk) 15:21, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- Not at all. The point isn't to make you feel bad because you made a mistake. The point is to put an effective barrier in the way to stop whatever problematic activity is happening. The fact that that barrier is unpleasant has no bearing on whether it is punishment or not (real world example; mother tells daughter she must stop editing wikipedia until she finishes her homework (unpleasant, preventative). After finishing homework daughter is still barred from editing because she didn't do her homework first. (unpleasant, punitive). To cast it in like-for-like; someone causing disruption on Wikipedia is being unpleasant and will not stop, they are served with an unpleasant situation which forces them to stop. Of course, it should be used in modicum, but then it most always is.... --Errant (chat!) 15:41, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- The point of the block is then not to be unpleasant to the blocked user but rather the unpleasantness is a side-effect which cannot be avoided. That's rather a different sense than saying: "blocks are unpleasant for the person receiving them that's the point". One could imagine a hypothetical utopian sci-fi vision of a wiki-based encyclopedia where instead of blocking problematic users administrators were somehow able to refer the problematic useraccounts to a simulacrum where the problematic behaviors would only be acted out against a simulated community and the "blocked" user would never realize their isolation from the actual encyclopedia. In such an example, the "blocked" user would not feel unpleasantness but the point of the block would still be achieved. jps (talk) 16:09, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- Not at all. The point isn't to make you feel bad because you made a mistake. The point is to put an effective barrier in the way to stop whatever problematic activity is happening. The fact that that barrier is unpleasant has no bearing on whether it is punishment or not (real world example; mother tells daughter she must stop editing wikipedia until she finishes her homework (unpleasant, preventative). After finishing homework daughter is still barred from editing because she didn't do her homework first. (unpleasant, punitive). To cast it in like-for-like; someone causing disruption on Wikipedia is being unpleasant and will not stop, they are served with an unpleasant situation which forces them to stop. Of course, it should be used in modicum, but then it most always is.... --Errant (chat!) 15:41, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. It does seem to be rather WP:PUNISHing, I'd argue. jps (talk) 15:21, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- Well that's generally because they haven't done something necessitating a block. It's amusing when these essays come up for two reasons. Firstly, blocks aren't common for regular editors, and it's hypothetically it's quite hard to get multiple blocks; getting more than 10 blocks is a pretty major feat which, I'd say, demonstrates more about the editor in question than the trail of admins. The second point is, yes, blocks are unpleasant for the person receiving them that's the point. --Errant (chat!) 09:27, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- Of course. Not all experience the full range of possibilities of what it's like to interact with an administrator as a non-administrator, though. Many administrators have never experienced what it's like to be blocked, for example. And many after becoming administrators forget what it's like not to be an administrator. jps (talk) 00:17, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
The essay presumes (accurately) that any action an administrator does will be perceived wrongly (which is accurate, just not the way intended I'm certain) so I'm not sure what the lesson there is. The issue is WP:INVOLVED actions, not all actions (unless you're dealing with jerks). For example, page protection will result in a WP:WRONGVERSION complaining only if the editors involved want it to be that way. Else, most editors with sense may not agree with the version protected but will actually then focus on the talk page discussion rather than fighting with the admin who protected the page as if the admin did it out of personal spite or whatever. It's nice but I'm not sure what's new with it. The bigger problem we have is with admins who shy away from doing anything (and I've fallen into that habit) due to the absolute antagonism you get no matter what you do. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:33, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- WP:ADMINANTAGONISM might be another useful essay. I think that this one speaks at least a little bit to why such things occur. The most adroit administrators might find ways around being viewed that way while still helping to solve problems. I don't know, I don't have the bit. I am attempting to describe how certain admin actions may be negatively perceived by those who don't have the bit and are on the receiving end of such actions. It isn't really meant to be an admonition not to do such actions (the whole point of becoming an admin is that you are trusted to do such actions, after all). It's merely to explain how doing certain actions in certain ways can lead to certain problems and to offer certain alternatives that I've seen work. jps (talk) 15:21, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think you realize that most admin actions are not based on some prior interactions with the editors. While there is a drop in admins, there are still far many admins than regular editors here (especially since admins aren't supposed to be using their tools when involved). For example, if I review WP:RFPP, there's a request for page protection. As I said above, no matter what version I chose to protect, someone could be angry about that. If your solution is that admins should, instead of actually using the tools, try to "help solve the problem" without it, you're suggesting what, I post on the talk page that the people there shouldn't edit war? If I don't use the tools, all I've done is remove the report, post (possibly again) on the talk page and then we'll wait and see what happens. The person who reported it to RFPP is now angry at the admin for not acting. If they stop, no one really needed an admin in the first place. If they don't, there really may be no solution other than protecting the page and forcing them to discuss it. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:39, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
- There may be no solution to the problem you describe, and the essay does not say, "don't use page protection tools". Instead, the essay tries to describe the very problem you are outlining. It tries to identify, as you are doing, what the consequences are and how page protection can set up a kind of power dynamic for better or worse. We can all name examples where administrators protected pages after editing the pages and the edge cases of what makes someone "involved" or not constitute megabytes worth of textual analysis on this site. This history necessarily causes problems between administrators and non-administrators. Who knows? Maybe someone smarter than you or I will come up with solutions to the problems, and it is my hope that this essay can serve as a place where these problems are described in clear terms. jps (talk) 14:20, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think you realize that most admin actions are not based on some prior interactions with the editors. While there is a drop in admins, there are still far many admins than regular editors here (especially since admins aren't supposed to be using their tools when involved). For example, if I review WP:RFPP, there's a request for page protection. As I said above, no matter what version I chose to protect, someone could be angry about that. If your solution is that admins should, instead of actually using the tools, try to "help solve the problem" without it, you're suggesting what, I post on the talk page that the people there shouldn't edit war? If I don't use the tools, all I've done is remove the report, post (possibly again) on the talk page and then we'll wait and see what happens. The person who reported it to RFPP is now angry at the admin for not acting. If they stop, no one really needed an admin in the first place. If they don't, there really may be no solution other than protecting the page and forcing them to discuss it. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:39, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
- Like teachers who are branded as villains by the errant school children they are obliged to admonish, admins invariably come under attack from editors they warn or block - and then also from some they don't (loosely described as the uncoordinated and non cohesive architypes of the anti-admin brigade - only those who self-identify with this group need to feel addressed). I'm not so enthralled by the bit about handing out punishments. All sanctions are supposed to be preventative and this rule is respected by most admins although the very reason I became interested in what adminship is all about all those years ago is because I was team bullied by two teenage admins (since fortunately either desysoped or grown up and found a new hobby away from the Wiki).
- Written by a non-admin, and as such by an editor who cannot possibly know what it is like to be a sysop, this essay has a very clear spin against admins and comes across as a patronising piece of finger wagging by someone who has an axe to grind; it will be taken with a pinch of cynicism by its target audience even if they bother to read it.
- I will add a link to it on WP:RFAADVICE but even there, I think it will be regarded with a certain scepsis by most of the mature candidates. My advice to the author is to run for adminship; if he fails it would be no big deal, if he suceeds it would be no big deal either, but unlike a leopard, he would almost certainly change his spots. The essay is TL;DR anyway and really belongs in user space; kudos nevertheless for its excellent style and use of English - something that is sadly generally lacking on the en.Wiki.Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:57, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- This response seems rather ironic. You accuse someone who is not an administrator of talking down to administrators? Odd thing to do. There are many documented instances of administrators talking down to users. For example, some administrators compare themselves to "teachers who are branded as villains by the errant school children they are obliged to admonish." Am I like an errant schoolchild? jps (talk) 20:54, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- @I9Q79oL78KiL0QTFHgyc: This is only my view, but the only time this essay is going to be linked to is by an admin (or one who agrees with an admin) to an editor who is making the same arguments of the essay in a bitter rebuke/satire. I strongly suggest you add the Humorous tag or take it out of project space. Hasteur (talk) 20:38, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think that this is true, but only time will tell, of course. The essay, sadly, is not humorous for those of us who have experienced problems with administrators. jps (talk) 20:54, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- I9Q79oL78KiL0QTFHgyc, as you can see, I'm capable of exercising enormous restraint at times. I didn't suggest for a moment that you were an errant schoolboy, but if the cap fits, by all means wear it. All your comments here seem to demonstrate is that you do indeed have an axe to grind. Thus your essay is inappropriate for project space. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:28, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- And you continue to be condescending. Here's the thing, we are interacting on the internet so interpretations can be difficult to understand. What I see coming from you is an arrogance, a type of pontification that assumes that I must have a certain amount of problems which would disqualify me from putting together an essay about what I would like to see administrators do. Never mind that the essay is editable by anyone (including yourself) and is subject to community consensus like all else. You insist that your lead off was not meant to suggest that your analogy applied to me, but then go on to imply that it does. See the issue? I am also keenly aware that you have tools that have the potential to prevent me from editing Wikipedia, so any dispute we get into is pregnant with that possibility in my mind, whether you are excellent at restraint or not! Best practices is really just a matter of locking down what excellence at restraint might look like (and I have encountered plenty of administrators who have not had such excellence of restraint). jps (talk) 12:13, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- Patronising perhaps, but condescending definitely not (check in a dico). But there you go again, immediately on the attack at admins, and personal attacks at me, and assuming that because I have a bunch of janitor's keys I'm going to block you or delete your page. Hey, we're 1,333 admins here with fewer rotten apples in the barrel than the UK CID. My, you have a problem. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:19, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- Fallacy of composition much? I'm not immediately on the attack "at admins". I am criticizing you specifically here. And "condescension" does fit the characteristics of your interactions towards me. I'm not sure how you measured how many "rotten apples" are in the barrel. If you'd like to offer your means of estimation, that'd me nice. I don't assume that you are going to use the tools against me -- I'm merely pointing out that you could if you wanted to and I really only have the recourse of asking for help from others if that would be your desire. That's the concern. It's not the be-all and end-all of the project, it's just one thing to keep in mind, is all. jps (talk) 13:58, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- Patronising perhaps, but condescending definitely not (check in a dico). But there you go again, immediately on the attack at admins, and personal attacks at me, and assuming that because I have a bunch of janitor's keys I'm going to block you or delete your page. Hey, we're 1,333 admins here with fewer rotten apples in the barrel than the UK CID. My, you have a problem. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:19, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- And you continue to be condescending. Here's the thing, we are interacting on the internet so interpretations can be difficult to understand. What I see coming from you is an arrogance, a type of pontification that assumes that I must have a certain amount of problems which would disqualify me from putting together an essay about what I would like to see administrators do. Never mind that the essay is editable by anyone (including yourself) and is subject to community consensus like all else. You insist that your lead off was not meant to suggest that your analogy applied to me, but then go on to imply that it does. See the issue? I am also keenly aware that you have tools that have the potential to prevent me from editing Wikipedia, so any dispute we get into is pregnant with that possibility in my mind, whether you are excellent at restraint or not! Best practices is really just a matter of locking down what excellence at restraint might look like (and I have encountered plenty of administrators who have not had such excellence of restraint). jps (talk) 12:13, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- I9Q79oL78KiL0QTFHgyc, as you can see, I'm capable of exercising enormous restraint at times. I didn't suggest for a moment that you were an errant schoolboy, but if the cap fits, by all means wear it. All your comments here seem to demonstrate is that you do indeed have an axe to grind. Thus your essay is inappropriate for project space. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:28, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think that this is true, but only time will tell, of course. The essay, sadly, is not humorous for those of us who have experienced problems with administrators. jps (talk) 20:54, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
Request topic ban for CheckersBoard
CheckersBoard has combined agenda-based editing along with making inept edits on André Marin. Request that any topic ban include Ontario Ombudsman. Highlights from this post:
- In addition the speedy deletion tag was removed against wiki rules.
- article relies too heavily on primary and secondary sourcing
- Currently stands as more of a hagiography and job application than a topic worthy of encyclopaedic entry
- topic might be better as a blog elsewhere
All this about a version far from flattering. [31]
Editing ineptness: [32], [33], [34] (note edit summaries) [35], [36] (caused by own doing)
Content ineptness: [37], [38], [39] (material is already in relatively short article)
Lack of awareness of good content practices despite discussion: [40], [41], [42]
Agenda based editing: [43], [44], [45], [46] Note the wiping out of Marin's name. This series of edits is like removing all the policy content from Presidency of Barack Obama (leaving the criticism), moving it to President of the United States, and wiping Obama's name.
Plenty of warnings on user's talk page [47] including a block from me before I got involved with trying to prevent content damage. Edit summaries here are indicative of responses. --NeilN talk to me 17:46, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
- Support I first became involved on the Marin page last month when I expanded the article with sourcing and better layout. It looks like CheckersBoard has been involved with the page for around a year, and there has been some suggestion about CB having a COI on the topic: [48]. A look at the page history for Andre Marin shows the repeated COI/unproductive editing, and frequent reverts by a number of different editors. CB has received over a dozen warnings on his talk page about editing on Marin and Ontario Ombudsman and has made no efforts to improve his edits or try to discuss these issues on the talk page. FuriouslySerene (talk) 19:04, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
- Support based on apparent lack of reading comprehension alone. After being reverted by NeilN, CheckersBoard posted about it on the talk page, apparently under the impression that the information was being removed for being undue. I replied that the information was already present, yet minutes later, they re-added the information to the article without any acknowledgement of the talk page discussion. The agenda-based edits posted by NeilN are also quite concerning. Unless CheckersBoard acknowledges that they are causing problems with this sort of editing, they should stay away from the topic entirely. clpo13(talk) 19:15, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
- This is a long-term problem, and multiple editors (including myself) have tried in vain to get Checkersboard to understand (and edit within) wikipedia guidelines. It's unfortunate, but there has just been too much disruption caused by this editor. Reluctantly support the proposed topic ban. Fyddlestix (talk) 13:46, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Policy question: is it permissible to edit for pay from an IP address?
WP:COIDISCLOSEPAY says "Editors who are compensated for their contributions must disclose their employer, client and affiliation with respect to any paid contributions, on their main user page, the talk page accompanying any paid contributions (articles, drafts etc), or, if the talk page can not be used, in edit summaries." IP editors usually don't have a user page, and if they have a shared IP address, it's not really meaningful to have one. So what's policy when an paid editor edits from an IP address, and discloses their affiliation in edit comments or the article talk page?
This has come up twice recently in two independent cases, WP:COIN#William_Morris_IP_editor_or_editors and WP:AN/I#PAYTALK. It's thus a real policy question. In both cases, paid editing was disclosed on talk pages or edit summaries, but multiple IP addresses were involved.
On the one hand, Wikipedia does try to be "the encyclopedia anyone can edit", and while IP editors do face some restrictions, they're allowed to do most things. On the other hand, paid editing from IP addresses is hard to monitor, and makes checking for COI problems more difficult. It is to some extent gaming the system in the WP:GAME sense.
So, what's the consensus on this? Thanks. John Nagle (talk) 23:50, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
- Regardless of the practicality of enforcing this, the wording is "editors who..." not "accounts who...", so I don't see why this wouldn't apply. Sam Walton (talk) 23:52, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
- If the policy explicitly states that disclosure in edit summaries is appropriate when other systems fail (which they easily do for changing/shared IP addresses), then what's wrong with doing exactly that? LjL (talk) 23:54, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
- My feeling would be "Yes, provided they disclose in their edit summary or on any relevant talk pages". I only really see a problem if the editing is being done through an IP in an attempt to deceive. Lankiveil (speak to me) 07:18, 6 December 2015 (UTC).
Balkans issue
The Boka Star article was recently nominated for deletion by Loesorion with the rationale This article was created by user who had similar content removed from M-87 Orkan page. He created this article for personal purposes and it contains false information. After creation he linked this article with M-87 Orkan page were same content was deleted after Talk. I'm not interested in the original shape of the article or any dispute that there may be between Loesorion and Bobrayner. The article has been improved by a number of editors (including myself) and the fact that the ship was involved in arms running is borne out by sources. With this edit, Loesorion claimed he had Deleted and corrected false information from article. This is not the case. The reference "nca" does indeed verify fuel for SCUDS and also parts for the Orkan rocket. The seebiz webpage that was deleted as a reference verifies the sale of the ship to Splitska Plovibda. I reverted the edit and raised the issue on the article's talk page. It seems to me that Loesorion is trying to push his particular POV in this dispute, despite sources verifying a situation opposite to his view. I have warned him via the article's talk page not to do so. As the vessel served with Balkan countries, are there any discretionary sanctions that can be applied to the article? Advice would be appreciated please. Mjroots (talk) 16:19, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
- For inof, Loesorion has reverted me. I'm not going to get involved in an edit war over this, but have explained my position at talk:Boka Star. Mjroots (talk) 21:22, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Minor vandalism on webisode episode listings
We seem to have a problem with very minor vandalism. Over the last few years, I seem to be in a constant struggle with someone with a changing IP address. This person seems to have a particular pleasure in changing the release date for the episodes of webseries a few days different here and there. The vandalism is small enough some of these changes have taken years, if ever to fix all of the damage. Yes, as seen in my recent edits of List of The Guild episodes and List of Mortal Kombat: Legacy episodes, the vandal didn't even take the time to change the List of seasons section dates. Here are a few of the IP addresses that have made these changes.
- 2602:306:CD51:9170:8419:466:565C:544C
- 2602:306:CD8F:9060:54B3:E942:F8E6:9AF0
- 2602:306:cd51:ab70:e944:9afb:5cb9:4142
- 2602:306:CD8F:8C70:14BE:366D:EA26:EA36
- 2602:306:cd51:8c10:3581:95e1:da38:5b65
- 2602:306:cdc2:3930:51c4:5933:e564:919a
Most of the edits seem to be coming from Raleigh, North Carolina. I don't know if we can shut this person down. This person seems patient enough to wait editors out on these backwater pages. In the end, I know there used to be some sort of verify edit type of system that used to be on wikipedia. Maybe pages like these need to be under that banner. I am not as active as I used to be. It is just sad to see factual errors on wikipedia that aren't fixed for several years. Oldag07 (talk) 06:25, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
- Based on the addresses you've provided above the CIDR range seems to be 2602:0306:CD00/40. We could consider blocking this range if it is a big problem. Have you any examples of recent vandalism from these addresses? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:36, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think so. Here are a few more.
- 2602:306:c59c:5f80:ecad:897b:5c44:b306
- 2602:306:CD8F:BDF0:E436:3CD0:6759:2A34
- 2602:306:CD8F:BDF0:FC78:2634:D91C:D34F
- 2602:306:CD51:BDA0:75C2:A162:1855:123D
- 2602:306:c59c:5080:f1df:cb9b:c34a:470f
- 2602:306:CD51:A100:614D:A52:CF31:B105
- 2602:306:35FB:2EC0:584A:8ECE:39AF:E2FC - seems to be non vandalism address
-
- Maybe the right answer is to just ignore it. There has just got to be a better way to catch vandalism like that. Oldag07 (talk) 00:02, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
- Added bullet points for ease of readingOldag07 (talk) 00:02, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
- I can't block such a large range unless there is significant ongoing vandalism from these addresses. If it is specific articles that are targeted then we could look at semi-protection or pending changes. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:06, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
- Assuming the "non-vandalism address" is unrelated, these are all within the equivalent of 3,072 IPv4 addresses (in between /20 and /21): 108.89.196.0/23, 108.213.24.0/22, 108.216.248.0/22 and 108.220.34.0/23. Peter James (talk) 23:26, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- I can't block such a large range unless there is significant ongoing vandalism from these addresses. If it is specific articles that are targeted then we could look at semi-protection or pending changes. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:06, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
I assume pending changes are for the very minor articles. Yes, I would prefer that we use pending changes for the webisode episode pages. Oldag07 (talk) 15:56, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I put PC protection on List of Mortal Kombat: Legacy episodes, but not the other article. I was having a hard time justifying it because the vandalism was so old and there appeared to be an IP that was making productive edits. Blocking the IPs won't do anything because the person behind them has probably moved on to (hopefully) more productive pursuits. I think WP:Huggle and WP:STiki are supposed to catch subtle stuff like this, but it's certainly not a perfect system. ~Awilley (talk) 01:28, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Oldag07: - You may be interested in this. What you are describing in this thread is sadly textbook behavior. -Thibbs (talk) 02:38, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
Arbcom remedies.
Where's the proper place to go, to have a Arbcom case's remedy revoked? GoodDay (talk) 20:05, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
Also, is thanking someone for their edit or post (via the 'thank' button), considered a breach of one's Arb restricton, if it's a edit or post related to that restricted topic? GoodDay (talk) 20:10, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- Case remedies can be revoked at WP:ARCA. And it depends re "thanking" - might be a technical violation, but as a one-off it might also be too trivial to worry about. -- Euryalus (talk) 21:08, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- I do want to point out -- without implying that it's the case here -- that there have been incidents where using the "thanks" button excessively to an editor one is in a dispute with or whom one is under an IBAN with or who has claimed harassment, etc. has led to a block of the "thanking" editor, as the excessive use was determined to be a means of annoyance. So while a quick "thanks" may slip by (which depends to a certain extent on the reaction of the other editor), I wouldn't make a habit of it. BMK (talk) 21:42, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- As long editor-A is allowed to 'thank' editor-B for making an edit or post in a area that editor-A is restricted from, there shouldn't be any problems. Certaintly know way that editor-A could be accused of influencing editor-B. GoodDay (talk) 21:45, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- Who said anything about "influencing"? If there's an interaction ban, for instance, then the "thank you" is, as Euryalus mentioned, a technical violation of it, albeit (perhaps) a trivial one. The ban is not on "influencing" the other editor, it's on "interacting" with them.
But, now that you mention it, when Editor-A thanks Editor-B for something done in a subject that Editor-A is restricted from, I think that could easily be considered as trying to influence Editor-B, and by doing so being involved in the restricted subject. It's generally best not to test the boundaries of one's sanction, admins and arbitrators tend to look on it with disfavor - so I wouldn't do it, especially since you've now brought it up. BMK (talk) 22:32, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- Just wanted to be sure. I'm under a 3+ year restriction, which was (of course) put in place before the 'Thank' option was added :) GoodDay (talk) 22:35, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- See WP:IBAN, which specifically mentions the Thank extension, although the WP:TBAN section (immediately above it) doesn't make any references to it. Nyttend (talk) 14:12, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- FWIW, I was the one that added this mention to the IBAN section, and remember clearly the discussion that led up to it -- everyone agreed it should already have been covered under the umbrella of "interaction" but since at least one person had abused it, there was no harm in clarifying explicitly that the "thanks" extension was included in a standard IBAN. See my diff and the discussion diff'ed in the edit summary. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 19:47, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- See WP:IBAN, which specifically mentions the Thank extension, although the WP:TBAN section (immediately above it) doesn't make any references to it. Nyttend (talk) 14:12, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Just wanted to be sure. I'm under a 3+ year restriction, which was (of course) put in place before the 'Thank' option was added :) GoodDay (talk) 22:35, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- Who said anything about "influencing"? If there's an interaction ban, for instance, then the "thank you" is, as Euryalus mentioned, a technical violation of it, albeit (perhaps) a trivial one. The ban is not on "influencing" the other editor, it's on "interacting" with them.
But, now that you mention it, when Editor-A thanks Editor-B for something done in a subject that Editor-A is restricted from, I think that could easily be considered as trying to influence Editor-B, and by doing so being involved in the restricted subject. It's generally best not to test the boundaries of one's sanction, admins and arbitrators tend to look on it with disfavor - so I wouldn't do it, especially since you've now brought it up. BMK (talk) 22:32, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- As long editor-A is allowed to 'thank' editor-B for making an edit or post in a area that editor-A is restricted from, there shouldn't be any problems. Certaintly know way that editor-A could be accused of influencing editor-B. GoodDay (talk) 21:45, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- I do want to point out -- without implying that it's the case here -- that there have been incidents where using the "thanks" button excessively to an editor one is in a dispute with or whom one is under an IBAN with or who has claimed harassment, etc. has led to a block of the "thanking" editor, as the excessive use was determined to be a means of annoyance. So while a quick "thanks" may slip by (which depends to a certain extent on the reaction of the other editor), I wouldn't make a habit of it. BMK (talk) 21:42, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
Request for comment on possible change to administrative policy
Wikipedia:Administrators/RFC on inactivity 2015
Beeblebrox (talk) 00:19, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
WP:SPI
Some SPI cases which are CU completed and CU declined (An SPI clerk has declined a request for CheckUser, and the case is now awaiting a behaviour investigation.) needs attention of administrators. --The Avengers 02:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
A request to review the close at Talk:Allegiance (musical)
This is a request to review the close at Talk:Allegiance (musical) to determine if the discussion was closed appropriately. The heading of the particular section originally was “Should all content be sourced?”, but after it was closed, an editor changed the heading to “Should plot summaries be sourced … ?” I discussed this close with the closer on his talk page, User talk:SchroCat. I believe the close was inappropriate because the closer was not an uninvolved editor, instead he was a part of the discussion. This is in spite of the fact that the guidelines on the Wikipedia:Closing discussions page indicate that the closing editor should be someone who is “uninvolved”. There are important reasons it should be someone who is not involved, for example: so that it won’t seem as if the discussion was closed only in order to get the last word, or to limit the ability of an opposing view to be expressed, etc. The discussion had been a good exchange of ideas between very active editors about “verifiability” and what the guidelines say about handing citations in articles. I think discussions on talk pages have value, and should be respected. Editors should indeed ask each other questions, and discuss Wikipedia policy, and discuss how it should be edited. Discussions should not be closed unnaturally by an editor who is involved and might want to make a point. It violates the WP policy (cited above). I think it’s important, and the discussion should reopen, and hopefully come to a conclusion, or fall silent, or what ever it might naturally do. Thanks. DagTruffle (talk) 03:43, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- In short, yes. And likely for your own good as SchroCat stated due to you heading nose down into IDHT territory. You opened a discussion with a non-neutral heading to start with and informal discussions rarely require a formal closure by an uninvolved party unless it is a formal advertised RFC or consensus is not clear. The discussion was very clear, and without rehashing it here, you are unlikely to find many (if any) who disagree. Secondly - this was explained to you repeatedly by multiple editors. You continued to argue, but you need to learn that there comes a point in a discussion like that where you either accept you are wrong, or that the other participants just dont agree with you. As wikipedia works by consensus, either option almost always means you should drop it or end up at a drama board. I suggest Dropping it. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:56, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Unhelpful comment removed. Indentation may be affected. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:46, 2 December 2015 (UTC).
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- As has been pointed out numerous times in many places, current guidance states that discussions can be closed by the participants where consensus is clear. As this was essentially DagTruffle not listening to everyone else, demanding an uninvolved person to close (what barely qualifies as) a discussion is just buro-wonkery and a waste of everyone's time. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:36, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
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Unhelpful comment removed. Indentation may be affected. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:46, 2 December 2015 (UTC).
- Unhelpful comment removed. Indentation may be affected. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:46, 2 December 2015 (UTC).
- Unhelpful comment removed. Indentation may be affected. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:46, 2 December 2015 (UTC).
If an outside view is wanted, I have to say that I am in agreement with Caden. DagTruffle appeared to be making some quite reasonable points about referencing (with examples), and the insistence that the references should be removed seems very strange and contrary to most Wikipedia principles. They are certainly doing no harm, and are actually adding to the veracity of the text. If IDHT applied in that discussion, it looks more like it was those opposing DagTruffle who were guilty of failing to listen. The attempt at pulling rank was really rather depressing to see. I would recommend that the RFC is reopened, allowed to run for longer, and not closed by an involved party. Number 57 16:27, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- What RfC? - SchroCat (talk) 16:29, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Apologies, I assumed this had been an RfC. Nevertheless, I would still recommend that the closure is reversed, and hopefully some more consideration is given to the valid points raised, rather than a new editor being brushed off. Number 57 16:35, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Not really. Equally or more valid points have been put in opposition; there is no consensus and it's a fairly pointless argument to drag on any further. I'm also not sure this is a new user. (Not necessarily accusing anyone of underhand behaviour with that). There is too much knowledge of procedures, wikilawyering to class them as "new". - SchroCat (talk) 16:40, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- The most serious problem, as I see it, is that some editors think it is justified to strip entire article sections of inline citations. And citations are the way content can be verified. The best argument they give for for removing citations, is that something similar is done in articles on movies. But Broadway musicals and movies are different. For example, the only way an editor can use a “primary source” to verify the plot summary for the musical Allegiance, would be to travel to New York City, buy a ticket for $306.00 or less, and report back. That is until the script is published, if that happens. But since plots of musicals are often described in books and articles why not cite them? Especially since verification is one of the Seven Pillars of Wikipedia. (By the way, I did indeed have a previous Wikipedia account — Dagtorfleson — until my computer died, and took some passwords to the grave with it.) DagTruffle (talk) 17:02, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- This is rather disappointing. On the relevant page I congratulated both the protagonists on their courtesy and consensual approach, but I seem have been premature in that judgement so far as Dag Truffle is concerned. Whatever the merits of the arguments (rather caricatured here by Mr/Ms Truffle, in my view, as neither the Carmen, Carousel nor Romeo and Juliet articles refer to films) there was only one editor urging the Truffle line, viz Mr/Ms Truffle. There being no consensus for his/her point of view it was entirely within the normal WP rules to bring the one-sided debate to a conclusion. I am glad to note Dag Truffle's statement that he/she is not a new editor: not only was I too a touch surprised at such slickness in Wiki procedural lore but I feel that an experienced editor, albeit under earlier names, should recognise the need for consensus. Unhelpful comment removed. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:48, 2 December 2015 (UTC). Tim riley talk 17:53, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- The most serious problem, as I see it, is that some editors think it is justified to strip entire article sections of inline citations. And citations are the way content can be verified. The best argument they give for for removing citations, is that something similar is done in articles on movies. But Broadway musicals and movies are different. For example, the only way an editor can use a “primary source” to verify the plot summary for the musical Allegiance, would be to travel to New York City, buy a ticket for $306.00 or less, and report back. That is until the script is published, if that happens. But since plots of musicals are often described in books and articles why not cite them? Especially since verification is one of the Seven Pillars of Wikipedia. (By the way, I did indeed have a previous Wikipedia account — Dagtorfleson — until my computer died, and took some passwords to the grave with it.) DagTruffle (talk) 17:02, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- Not really. Equally or more valid points have been put in opposition; there is no consensus and it's a fairly pointless argument to drag on any further. I'm also not sure this is a new user. (Not necessarily accusing anyone of underhand behaviour with that). There is too much knowledge of procedures, wikilawyering to class them as "new". - SchroCat (talk) 16:40, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Apologies, I assumed this had been an RfC. Nevertheless, I would still recommend that the closure is reversed, and hopefully some more consideration is given to the valid points raised, rather than a new editor being brushed off. Number 57 16:35, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Unhelpful comment removed. Indentation may be affected. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:48, 2 December 2015 (UTC).
- Unhelpful comment removed. Indentation may be affected. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:48, 2 December 2015 (UTC).
- Unhelpful comment removed. Indentation may be affected. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:48, 2 December 2015 (UTC).
- Unhelpful comment removed. Indentation may be affected. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:48, 2 December 2015 (UTC).
- Unhelpful comment removed. Indentation may be affected. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:48, 2 December 2015 (UTC).
- Next revert in this section gets a 1 week block. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:44, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
Inappropriate closure should definitely not have been closed by an involved user. DagTruffle had understandable concerns, even if others disagree with his views. I would have waited for an uninvolved user to close the discussion regardless of the overall consensus (or lack thereof). Snuggums (talk / edits) 00:41, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- I don't know that there's much to be done here about the close. It wasn't a formal process discussion but let's take on that the fact that involved people closing discussions is poor form; an appearance of bias; a drama magnet. I do not have the time to start an RfC but the "three experienced editors" here got it very wrong in my opinion; a basic failure of logic. The fact that plots don't require sources does not imply that plots should not have sources, nor that it is okay to remove reliable sources once added where they weren't mandated. To be fair, the original post may have started with the notion that plots do require sources, which is incorrect by current policy and guidelines, but the underlying issue was removal of sources, and the very clear notion expressed by the opposition was that because sources weren't required, that warranted their removal. I would go to bat against that notion—one I think of as pernicious. DagTruffle was later arguing that much more fundamental issue, and the idea this was just a new user with some zany notion clearly on the other side of policy and guideline to be brushed off as an IDHT malcontent is troubling. Had I come upon that discussion in the ordinary course, I would have attempted to shift the focus to what I see as the real issue. This is all to highlight that, yes, I don't think the close directly violated any policy, but that nevertheless it was a very bad idea.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:58, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
Request to move archives of Talk:List of YouTubers
A few months ago, the page at List of YouTube personalities was moved to List of YouTubers; the main talk page was moved along with the article, but its archives stayed at their original titles, and they can all be accessed from here. Could an admin move all the archives and the archive index to the new title? I could technically do this myself, but since I can't move more than one page at a time nor suppress any redirects, it would make for a messy process. I originally posted this request at WP:Editor assistance/Requests but it hasn't gotten any attention. Eventhorizon51 (talk) 06:57, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- All done. I didn't see the point of suppressing any redirects, so I didn't. Graham87 07:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Too be fair, there's nothing non-admins from mass moving pages via a script, just as admins do. Kharkiv07 (T) 15:19, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Admins don't have any mass-move scripts granted as part of the admin package. It's just that we get an additional check box when moving pages: "Move subpages (up to 100), if applicable". That's the only reason (as far as I can imagine) why this request makes sense. Nyttend (talk) 18:44, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
WP:ANRFC
Anyone have a mop and bucket for the backlog there? Several discussions are over a month old. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 09:34, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Rescinding unused community sanctions: WP:GS/BI
The "British Isles" community-authorised probation has not been enforced for more than three years, the last enforcement action having taken place on the 27th of May 2012. It is quite clear that these sanctions are not needed, and I believe that most in the community would agree that sanctions such as these should only remain in place if they are needed. Therefore, I propose that the authorisation for these sanctions be revoked by the community. RGloucester — ☎ 18:10, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- You'd be taking away the sanctions on an area that is still quietly simmering, on the grounds that it hasn't exploded lately. Note the intensity of the arguments in Talk:British Isles/Archive 39. A typical comment there was "Is there still an article on Wiki called "British Isles" that includes the explicitly non-British sovereign country of Ireland? I don't believe it." And see the current discussion at Talk:British Isles which is reminiscent of many that have occurred in the past. EdJohnston (talk) 21:23, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- "British Isles", like many other topic areas, will never stop being controversial. That doesn't mean that a sanctions regime that hasn't been used in more than three years should remain in place. Plenty of controversial topic areas survive without such systems. If a volcano does truly "erupt", sanctions can be reauthorised. There has been no indication as such, however. Keeping unused sanctions regimes around merely because a topic area is controversial is byzantine. RGloucester — ☎ 21:36, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Remove/revoke/whatever you want to call it. Support RGloucester's suggestion. Long-unenforced sanctions shouldn't be in place, if nothing else because they're not friendly to the uninitiated. Imagine that several new-ish editors engage in a good-faith content dispute on this topic: a longtime editor familiar with the sanctions can come in, play the sanctions as a trump card, and win the dispute. This flies in the face of standards such as WP:NOTBURO; we have too many rules, and getting rid of never-used rules is a good way to simplify things. As already noted, they can be reactivated if truly needed, but merely responding to intense arguments such as "Is there still...believe it" is no reason to have broad sanctions in place. Nyttend (talk) 21:52, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose removal, leave in place It's rather silly to remove a sanction because it's working. The fact that it hasn't needed to be invoked doesn't mean that the problem has magically disappeared, it means that the sanction is doing what it's supposed to do, discourage people from editing in a way that invites invoking the sanction. BMK (talk) 00:22, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
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- This is hard to believe, given that there are no notices in place on any related pages that inform users of these sanctions (not even on Talk:British Isles). No notices regarding their existence have been given to users in more than three years, either. The purpose of general sanctions is to curtail disruption. If there is no disruption worth curtailing in more than three years, it is hard to believe that these sanctions should continue to exist. How can users be discouraged from editing in such a way if no one even knows that the sanctions exist? The only way one would find out is by visiting WP:GS, and that page is not a frequently viewed page. All in all, there is no evidence that an extraordinary regime is presently necessary in this topic area. General sanctions exist for extraordinary circumstances, as opposed to the standard manner in which disruption is dealt with, and I do not see how an unenforced, unknown sanctions regime is aiding the encylopaedia. RGloucester — ☎ 00:28, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- So ... if a public swimming pool posts prominent signs about no diving in the shallow end, and the number of injuries from diving at the shallow end drops down to nothing, your advice would be to remove the signage as it's clearly no longer necessary? If reducing the posted speed limit on a dangerous curve cuts down the number of accidents significantly, you'd tell the authorities to put the speed limit back up to where it was, since it's no longer needed? BMK (talk) 01:17, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- This is not a similar circumstance. First of all, there are no prominent signs indicating the existence of these sanctions. That's what I just wrote above. Furthermore, if it were a similar circumstance, we would have general sanctions by default in all topic areas. We do not. We only use them as extraordinary measures. If they are not used (or useful), we remove them. RGloucester — ☎ 02:51, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- [edit conflict] The comparison to posting a sign would be to put a notice on related articles, whether by an ordinary template or an editnotice or something similar. Here, we're just pulling over drivers who infringe an unposted speed limit, giving them a warning, and arresting the ones who re-infringe...except for the fact that we're not doing this, because there's been no enforcement in three years. We don't need to maintain this policy of pulling them over, because infringing the unposted limit is a lesser included offense to dangerous driving, and we can still arrest people for that: editwarring over the inclusion of "British Isles" on pages, or willynilly removing "British Isles" from lots of pages, is outright disruptive and obviously nationalistic, and we don't need the sanctions in order to block someone who does that. Nyttend (talk) 02:53, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- So ... if a public swimming pool posts prominent signs about no diving in the shallow end, and the number of injuries from diving at the shallow end drops down to nothing, your advice would be to remove the signage as it's clearly no longer necessary? If reducing the posted speed limit on a dangerous curve cuts down the number of accidents significantly, you'd tell the authorities to put the speed limit back up to where it was, since it's no longer needed? BMK (talk) 01:17, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- This is hard to believe, given that there are no notices in place on any related pages that inform users of these sanctions (not even on Talk:British Isles). No notices regarding their existence have been given to users in more than three years, either. The purpose of general sanctions is to curtail disruption. If there is no disruption worth curtailing in more than three years, it is hard to believe that these sanctions should continue to exist. How can users be discouraged from editing in such a way if no one even knows that the sanctions exist? The only way one would find out is by visiting WP:GS, and that page is not a frequently viewed page. All in all, there is no evidence that an extraordinary regime is presently necessary in this topic area. General sanctions exist for extraordinary circumstances, as opposed to the standard manner in which disruption is dealt with, and I do not see how an unenforced, unknown sanctions regime is aiding the encylopaedia. RGloucester — ☎ 00:28, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose removal per BMK - sanction warnings appear to be working —МандичкаYO 😜 02:29, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- Support If we're not using them and haven't been using them for three years, by all means lift them! KoshVorlon 11:51, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose as per BMK. Sanctions exist both as a measure to take afterwards against problem editing, and to deter future problem editing. I am not persuaded that removing a sanction that is performing its job in preventing problem editing is a good thing. I would support say a 3-month suspension to see how it goes, if it kicks off again, it should be able to be reinstated without need for another long discussion. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:17, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
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- Again, how can these sanctions deter disruption editing ("preform their job") if no one even knows they exist? There are no posted notices of these sanctions anywhere, and no one has been notified of their existence in more than three years. However, the three month suspension is acceptable to me. If there hasn't been a use for these sanctions in more than three years, I hardly doubt that there will be in three months. RGloucester — ☎ 14:39, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
Oppose Unlike some other areas where disputes can be settled through extensive discussion and guideline building, like the MMA sanctions that were recently lifted, this is not one of them. Editors will continue to hold differing views about the concept of the British Isles. The ever present threat of general sanctions being levied forces editors to go do something better with their time than to chew over old soup. Blackmane (talk) 23:50, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose per BMK and Blackmane. Whether it is three months or three more years before and editor has to be informed about them is immaterial. They need to be there so they can be enforced when needed. MarnetteD|Talk 00:11, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose - As a witness to the many back-and-forth edit spats over usage of British Isles in articles, I recall how it was before the enactment of GS/BI. That there hasn't been any spats since then, is proof that it works. GoodDay (talk) 00:19, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
Request for closure
Would an administrator please close this request? RGloucester — ☎ 18:18, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Checkuser data followup
In reference to a recent discussion Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive276#Awaiting_statement involving apparent retention of checkuser beyond WMF guidelines, as written at the time, I asked WMF about it and they've clarified the guidelines [49] to make it explicit CU data may be retained long term. NE Ent 10:25, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- It really wasn't necessary to inquire, a straight-forward reading of the policy shows that to be the case, as I pointed out at the time. BMK (talk) 07:43, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- OTOH, I am glad that WMF stepped up and clarified the that usage of CUWiki to retain CU data of LTAers is permitted by policy. Props to NE Ent for making this happen. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 19:56, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
Review of topic ban - Armenian genocide denial
I issued a topic ban earlier and logged it here. As I have never placed a topic ban before, I would like to make sure that I have done this properly.
Background: I became aware of frequent problems with sockpuppets and paid meatpuppets in relation to trying to deny the Armenian genocide after working numerous related SPI cases this year. There is a concerted effort by PR firms hired by the nation of Turkey to promote the denial. There are actually more PR firms than mentioned there being paid whopping sums of money to conduct this campaign. See this web search. I blocked numerous socks/meats and had to protect pages including talk pages due to the disruption of these meats which took to IP hopping (see this history as an example). After suppressing puppet activity the disruption subsided for the last few months. The editor above is attempting to take up their baton and run with it. Quite frankly, I see the patience of the Wikipedia community growing thin on this perennial issue. Because that editor has constructive edits in other areas, I chose to place a topic ban in order to prevent further disruption when he filed a DR case earlier today. His bias is clear in this edit where he changes the wikilink to deny the title of our stable article. He has clarified that he is Turkish-American.
Named parties to that DR filing were EtienneDolet, Tiptoethrutheminefield and Dr.K.. I have not notified the above user because his involvement here would be against the topic ban and I want to deescalate the disruption not encourage it.
In addition to making sure that I have done this correctly, I would like to know if the community supports or opposes this TBAN.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 19:38, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- Support I responded to a query made by the user here. My comment was restrained—what I actually saw was that the user was enthusiastically pushing a fringe view. Johnuniq (talk) 03:52, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
Give the guy another chanceChanged to Neutral please see my comment below I already talked to Berean about this. I think Dominator is not as bad as the typical POV-pusher in this area. I am not going to second-guess Berean's admin discretion but I think he should have been warned more strongly under AA2 before the topic ban was enacted. Dr. K. 04:58, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
*Oppose Don't get me wrong, I vehemently oppose the fringe POV Dominator1453 is trying to push. However, intellectual honesty and fair play compel me to oppose a ban at this stage. First, instead of edit-warring over the content, he sought WP:DR. We are sending the wrong message if we ban people who seek DR instead of edit-warring. Second, in order for such a ban to be applied, Dominator would have to have been formally warned of WP:AA2 sanctions. To my knowledge this is not the case, so the ban is premature on procedural grounds. And lastly, being biased is not enough to warrant a ban. We all have out biases. It is when an editor causes disruption as a result of these biases that a ban is warranted. In my opinion, the disruption caused by Dominator at this stage is minimal. That may of course change in the future, but at this stage, I feel a ban is premature. Athenean (talk) 07:36, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- Following the further clarification by Berean Hunter below, I have reconsidered. It seems he was warned, and I find the canvassing attempts particularly disruptive. Athenean (talk) 19:20, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- Dr.K. has asked politely on my talk page if I would reconsider the TBAN. In my eyes that is what this thread is trying to gauge and yes, I put this here for reconsideration by the community. So I am open to the idea of lifting it if that is the outcome here. Because it is here, I would ask for about three days to allow for more input before making the decision. For some reason though, Dr. K. and Athenean seem to think that he had not been warned about WP:AA2 and that is not correct. He was warned right here on his talk page on Nov. 13. I should also point out that yesterday he tried to canvass another editor that appears to be Turkish with "Hello, I am trying to add the fact that some scholars and historians deny the alleged Armenian Genocide but fear that too many aggressive users of Armenian and Greek origin are reverting my edits. Please have a look." and I see that as escalation of disruption especially in view of the fact that he filed a DR as well before that. Unlike his adversaries above, he doesn't seem to have a problem trying to have WP:AA2 enforced on others in the conflict as he also tried to file for Arbcom enforcement after filing the DR and trying to canvass. This may be taken as a given that he understood AA2 and didn't need more warnings about it. I have serious doubts that anything fruitful will result if the TBAN is lifted as it looks like he is trying to beat a dead horse. I also do believe that since his non-neutral POV and bias has been revealed that he has compromised his position and shouldn't be editing there.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 13:40, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- Clarification After Berean Hunter's explanation just above, I can see that the usual signs of disruptive editing in this area clearly exist. My comments above were based mainly on my personal interactions with this user, a few times on my talkpage, where he was unfailingly polite and even friendly. The one time s/he got me worried was when he mentioned the ethnicity of his opponents at the talkpage of Turkey. But I see now that he used the ethnicity of his opponents during the canvassing incident of which I was unaware. My mention of "adequate warning under AA2" simply meant that I thought the user should have been given a topic ban perhaps as part of an AE report or a final warning before any topic ban was enacted if an AE report were not filed against him/her. But I realise that Berian Hunter did his/her due diligence and the matter falls squarely under his/her admin discretion, which I respect. Again, although this user seems to be following the exact same path as previous users in this area, there was a certain respect shown to me during our interactions which caused me to extend AGF and stretch it to its breaking point. Given Berean's additional comments, I can see that he exercised his admin discretion well. Does that change my mind? I have to investigate a little bit more. Thank you all. Dr. K. 16:57, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
I find articles where nationalist disruption persists need to be dealt with swiftly and decisively without wiggle room or mercy. When nationalism starts to come into play, AGF goes out the window. Nationalist disruption is like a spark in dry bush. If ignored, it becomes a bushfire that sucks in vast amounts of editor time and resources to deal with it. I mean, there have been 3(!) arbcom cases involving the Israeli Palestine articles and 2 involveing Azerbaijain / Armenia articles. Stamp it out, douse it and suffocate it with sand before it spreads. Endorse the topic ban. Blackmane (talk) 23:44, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- Support Looked this over yesterday but didn't have time to respond here. Not being as bad as the typical POV-pusher still leaves him as a POV-pusher. I'm losing all kinds of patience with ARBPIA/ARBEURO/ARBAA stuff lately. Katietalk 02:48, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Upon further investigation, I note these edits replacing the memorial of the victims of the Armenian genocide with another of a Muslim massacre and this edit calling the subsequent revert of his/her edit vandalism. In addition to the other incidents such as the canvassing and the attempt at reporting Tiptoe at AE, a rather clear pattern of disruption emerges. The only remaining question, at least for me, is if Dominator can improve his/her editing behaviour. Realistically, the chances for that to happen appear slim. But I will stretch AGF to its ultimate tensile strength and I will remain neutral. Dr. K. 03:23, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Support I am still astounded how a country can have any historical integrity and deny the Armenian Genocide, even with blatant political motives. If an organization such as Wikipedia which aspires to be an encyclopedia even entertains such a notion, it would lose credibility on all topics and open itself up to further (undeniable) charges of historical revisionism. Trinacrialucente (talk) 04:45, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Blocked indefinitely for violation of his topic ban. With this, he precisely showed his colors. "...you cannot judge me on my convictions on the lie called the "Armenian Genocide"."
— Berean Hunter (talk) 06:26, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
Block review
As I have stated on his talk page, this is now a block review for the community to decide.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 06:51, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
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- Is anyone else here aware that this user's name is referencing the fall of Constantinople at the hand of the Turks? I feel like we're staring at the face of evil here.Trinacrialucente (talk) 18:09, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- How so? Dr. K. 01:43, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- The fact that the user references the singular date in which an entire civilization was destroyed in his tag line, coupled with his denial of a genocide and hostility towards the victims/those who favor rightfully remembering it as such makes ME "feel like we're staring at the face of evil here". Trinacrialucente (talk) 00:56, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Constantinople fell in 1453. Not sure I'd go so far as to say we're staring at the face of evil, though. Katietalk 02:04, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you KrakatoaKatie. Believe it or not I am aware of the fact that Constantinople fell in 1453. However I am at a loss understanding how looking at a username making that connection is "staring at the face of evil". Dr. K. 02:15, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- While it might not be the face of evil, a triumphalist sig like that does not announce an intent to edit neutrally or dispassionately, it suggests the exact opposite. The suggestion becomes a clear announcement on his user page: "Once again, an age will end and a new age will begin after 570 years"; he has also said that he "loves Erdogan". However, I think it is unlikely that such a wide remit of a topic ban, extending it to an editor's own talk page, would have been envisaged by Dominator1453 - so I think, in the absence of an explicit warning in advance, it is a bit too harsh to extend a topic ban to an indef site ban because of his "the lie called the Armenian Genocide" comment. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:02, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Did you notice that I explained to him why he got indef blocked. I explained how he was not supposed to even mention a topic that he was banned from, and the most likely path back. His response was to again engage in the same arguments covered by the topic ban. It is at that point I removed talk page access. I don't think a lack of warning is the issue here. HighInBC 16:10, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, I had noticed - but it was an after the event explanation, he had already been blocked as a result of mentioning the subject on his talk page. I am not at all defending Dominator1453's edits or comments, and the topic ban seems appropriate, but I think there is something disturbing about the process that led to the permanent site ban. His "the lie called the Armenian Genocide" comment could have been enough to get the topic ban expanded to a block, but he was not actually permanently blocked because of the content of that comment - he was blocked for mentioning the AG on his talk page. Even if he had said something neutral, or even conciliatory, or nothing at all that mentioned the AG beyond mentioning his topic ban, he would have still been blocked under the remit of that topic ban. It seems overly extreme to me that an editor being topic banned should be forbidden (with the severest of punishment) from making any comment about that ban on his/her talk page. If such a broad interdict is going to be in place I think it needs to be clearly stated in advance that the topic ban includes even a mention of the topic on the topic-banned editor's own user page, since an affected editor might not realize the full extent of what a topic ban entails. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:55, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Did you notice that I explained to him why he got indef blocked. I explained how he was not supposed to even mention a topic that he was banned from, and the most likely path back. His response was to again engage in the same arguments covered by the topic ban. It is at that point I removed talk page access. I don't think a lack of warning is the issue here. HighInBC 16:10, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Constantinople fell in 1453. Not sure I'd go so far as to say we're staring at the face of evil, though. Katietalk 02:04, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Is anyone else here aware that this user's name is referencing the fall of Constantinople at the hand of the Turks? I feel like we're staring at the face of evil here.Trinacrialucente (talk) 18:09, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Comment: The T-ban was appropriate and so was the indeff. I can't see any need for a community block review here. Why not just put a blocking template on the use's tp and let them make a block appeal in the usual way. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:42, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
-
- Their talk page access has been revoked and they have been given UTRS as a means to appeal. Here's an interesting new account where I've semi-protected an article in the area of interests as our fellow above:
- Soloturk1453 (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · SUL · CA · checkuser (log))
- Interesting coincidence worth watching.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 17:35, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Category:AfD debates relisted 3 or more times
Back in May I nominated Category:AfD debates relisted 3 or more times for deletion, and it was kept. While I don't have a problem with that, the issue is the category is not removed when the AfD is closed, there was some talk of close AfD scripts doing it, although I don't think that is always the case. I was going through the category using AWB for a while, and removing it from the discussions manually, but I haven't done that since mid October (you can see that it is still in this now closed discussion from 21 October). So my request is that when people are closing AfDs that have been relisted 3+ times, they check to make sure the category is removed, and if not remove it manually. Much thanks, --kelapstick(bainuu) 04:24, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- Was there a bot that used to do this? I'm sure there was a bot that used to remove Category:Relisted AfD debates from closed AfDs, but it doesn't seem like that happens anymore. Assuming this wasn't deliberately stopped, might be worth cross-posting at WP:BOTREQ to see if anyone is interested in taking it on again. Jenks24 (talk) 12:18, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- As an AFD closer I simply go through the log and close them so with the greatest of respect I'm not going to flaff about manually removing categories and potentially screwing something else up in the process, If we delete the (IMHO useless) category then we won't have a backlog. –Davey2010Talk 12:30, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- I don't know if there was a bot that used to do it, there was talk of getting one to do it, but at least one that I checked yesterday was from late October. Jenks24, I will swing by BOTREQ and check, thank you. Davey2010, I get where you are coming from regarding not wanting to put another step into closing discussions, and I agree that the category is largely useless, which is why I had nominated it for deletion. Originally it was set up to appear in the backlog when 3 or more items were listed, but that meant a perpetual backlog (I have since arbitrarily increased it to 20), as the category also includes every page the discussion was transcluded on (including delsort pages). There is (to my knowledge) no way to suppress the category on transcluded pages as well, which would at least be helpful. As a bit of background as to how this category came to be, it was created (and added to the Admin Backlog) by Technical 13, he added to the relist script a function that checks to see how many relists the discussion has, and if it was two times, the category was added by the script. The category can be removed using HotCat, so it's not like one has to search for it. More just remembering to do it (or knowing to do it, I am sure that most people don't even know this category exists). --kelapstick(bainuu) 21:17, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think we can add it to the AFD closing instructions to review the page and if they have hotcat, to remove it. Otherwise, we can have a bot request to make a table of all pages in those categories that include both the Afd closing template and the category if that helps. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:34, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- This is a great task for a bot. Should be very simple. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:20, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
- For those of you interested, a BRFA has been filed. Also, it seems some of the pages within the category are actually listed as a result of the AfD being included, so the backlog isn't as bad as it seems (only 7 pages currently, if I accounted for all possibilities at least). Hazard SJ 06:29, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- ... and it's been approved, so I'll set it up for a daily run (maybe that's overkill?). Hazard SJ 06:50, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Much thanks. Once a day is probably overkill. Once or twice a week would probably be sufficient. The multiple inclusion of the same discussion is a categorization issue, I don't know the solution to that. Thanks again. --kelapstick(on the run) 08:16, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Kelapstick: Shouldn't it be <noinclude>d on the main AfD pages? — Earwig talk 18:19, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Would that fix the issue with all the delsort and individual day AfDs showing up in the category? I am not familiar with how the <include> tags work. If so that should be added to the relist script(s). --kelapstick(bainuu) 19:34, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Kelapstick: Shouldn't it be <noinclude>d on the main AfD pages? — Earwig talk 18:19, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Much thanks. Once a day is probably overkill. Once or twice a week would probably be sufficient. The multiple inclusion of the same discussion is a categorization issue, I don't know the solution to that. Thanks again. --kelapstick(on the run) 08:16, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- ... and it's been approved, so I'll set it up for a daily run (maybe that's overkill?). Hazard SJ 06:50, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
Done. This should work. — Earwig talk 21:54, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks Earwig, I will check back on it once the existing discussions are closed (since {{relist}} is substituted, it won't have any effect on the existing pages). --kelapstick(bainuu) 00:32, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Yes,
<noinclude>...</noinclude>
should be the solution. I'm going to update my source code to remove that tag if it's present (via regular expressions), so that we don't have empty tags lying around. Hazard SJ 02:11, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Category:Relisted AfD debates
It was brought to my attention by Ricky81682 that Category:Relisted AfD debates, which is actually a parent category of Category:AfD debates relisted 3 or more times, also exists, and is pretty crowded. I'd just like to get confirmation that this category should also be removed as well before I file a BRFA for that (there would be a total of 8848 removals initially, so I definitely want to make sure first). Hazard SJ 02:11, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- I suppose it would depend on if that category is supposed to track active relisted AfDs, or all relisted AfDs. I would think that there would be more than 8800 since 2009 (when the category was created) if it were all relisted AfDs, so it's probably only for the active ones, just the category never gets removed. The CFD discussion suggests that as well (I think). --kelapstick(bainuu) 02:19, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- I don't see why anyone would care for a list of all AFDs that were relisted. You could get that from following the template or other ways. A list of active AFDs makes sense as a way to see which discussions could use more votes of any type and then 3 times makes even more sense from there. I've manually removed a number and I don't see how anyone would be hindered by that. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:49, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Considering it's a subcat of Category:AfD debates, which is "unclosed AfDs", I'd be inclined to believe it should be active relisted AfDs. I suspect it's simply been ignored. Don't see the use of having a category for closed relisted AfDs. — Earwig talk 05:18, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Agree with that decision. There could definitely be someone looking for a list of relisted AFDs (we sometimes see PhD dissertations about Wikipedia, and I can imagine one studying article deletions, with plenty of emphasis on relistings), but as noted, that can come from WhatLinksHere for the template. Nyttend (talk) 12:36, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
All this energy going into deletion, while adding/fixing content is suffering? Ottawahitech (talk) 06:24, 7 December 2015 (UTC)please ping me
- This is triage though. If we can get a proper handle on only the outstanding relisted AFD discussions, it'll make it easier to see which discussions aren't settled and which can be tipped over with some work. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:47, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
Experienced LTA clerk needed
There's about a dozen proposed LTA (Long Term Abuse) cases pending approval at Category:Wikipedia long-term abuse – Pending approval. If there is any admin who is experienced with working with LTA cases, and could either approve or decline these, it'd really help clear a backlog which is pretty short on numbers (only 12) and pretty long on time (many of these have been awaiting approval for months). Thanks! --Jayron32 02:36, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- I nominated two of them for speedy deletion, as they are misplaced vandalism reports that should have gone to AIV. I've left the others alone, as I'm not an admin. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 12:04, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
Query new method of adding spam links
In the last couple of days I have come across two users adding spam links in a similar fashion:
- User:Obalabi adds a .gov ref followed by the same link here [50] and [51] etc
Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:28, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- I've blocked Albv because it looks highly likely she is engaging in undisclosed paid advocacy. MER-C 17:42, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
Backlog
There's a backlog (54 subcategories and 124 pages) at Category:Candidates for speedy deletion if anyone is awake and bored. Thanks. APK whisper in my ear 10:15, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
Delisting of skyscrapercity
Per the discussion at MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist#skyscrapercity.com and elsewhere, including this noticeboard, as of late last month there were over 1,900 links referring back to the internet forums at SKYSCRAPERCITY.COM. When these links appear in the main article space, they are most-often presented in the form of an embedded reference, meaning that there are upwards of over 1,000 links in Wikipedia articles where an internet discussion board is presented as a cited source.
With the assistance of other editors, this has since been pruned back by approximately 20% but there is still much work left to be done. Removing these links from the affected articles requires identifying the links as well as the arbitrary referenced tags attributed to them. It is my understanding that these links need to be removed from all talk pages as well, as our bots are unable to process talk pages containing links which have been blacklisted.
To facilitate this removal I am requesting the assistance of the community to review and remove these remaining links. Please let me know if there are any other considerations that we should be aware of going forward with this process. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 (talk) 19:48, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- skyscrapercity.com (*|search current)
- The above link will help.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 20:16, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
-
- Apparently there is a bot reverting the removal of (some of) these: see diff. - Nabla (talk) 22:48, 4 December 2015 (UTC) PS: calling the bot owner: @Anomie: - Nabla (talk) 22:51, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
-
- No what happened is the bot reinserted the reference into the article! This is because the "ref name='"Opens Today"'" is spammed multiple times in the article, so when that ref was deleted it left lots of orphaned entries. So the bot repaired this by reinserting the reference. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 22:58, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- I have now removed all references to skyscrapercity.com from that article. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 23:01, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
-
- That bot won't be able to revert them again because I have added the link to the blacklist. This does now mean that talk page archive bots won't be able to archive the specific threads that contain that link until they are removed.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 23:38, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- That bot won't be able to revert them again because I have added the link to the blacklist. This does now mean that talk page archive bots won't be able to archive the specific threads that contain that link until they are removed.
- Not particularly relevant but this will make Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/SkyscraperCity (4th nomination) more interesting at least. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:52, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
- Mainspace should be clean now. Should all namespaces have links removed? — JJMC89 (T·C) 03:26, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
-
- Please don't. There's no reason to cut the links from talk pages and their archives, for example. Nyttend (talk) 12:34, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
-
- You should deactivate the links on talk pages where necessary to prevent problems with archiving (nowiki is fine). Otherwise you should leave them alone. MER-C 13:37, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
- Comment Will all forums and links to them be purged from Wikipedia? Buffaboy talk 20:51, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
-
- Just almost all of them; see the tenth point of WP:ELNO. But it's not as big of an issue as it was when I first became really active here, eight or nine years ago; the rise of Facebook and other Web 2.0 sites has really caused a big decline in significance for traditional forum sites. At one time, I was routinely removing forum links from EL sections, and it's been quite a while since I saw any. Nyttend (talk) 12:42, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
3RR backlog
Would any Admin like to action the WP:AN3 backlog? :) JMHamo (talk) 14:23, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Jimbo lovin' troll
I'm not familiar with range blocks, but if it applies in this situation, will someone take a look at 182.239.98.81 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 182.239.98.73 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), and 182.239.66.149 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)? Thanks. APK whisper in my ear 15:12, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think I saw one of these at AIV this morning. It's 182.239.64.0/18, more than 16K IP addresses. Since December 3 there's been no non-vandal activity from that range, and given the extent of the disruption, I've rangeblocked for 72 hours. Katietalk 16:56, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks. APK whisper in my ear 16:58, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- @KrakatoaKatie:, I'm not sure if another range block is in order, but I thought I'd let you know the same person is back: 182.239.71.183 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 182.239.103.66 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), and 182.239.66.231 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). APK whisper in my ear 19:02, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- It's the same range from a Hong Kong ISP - the block simply expired. NeilN rangeblocked again for two weeks. Again, no non-vandal contributions from that range since mid-November, so I think we're good. Katietalk 20:16, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks. APK whisper in my ear 20:50, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- It's the same range from a Hong Kong ISP - the block simply expired. NeilN rangeblocked again for two weeks. Again, no non-vandal contributions from that range since mid-November, so I think we're good. Katietalk 20:16, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
Segregationist
User:166.175.56.39 had made an edit calling Harry "Curley" Byrd a segregationist on the page Byrd Stadium and I reverted it. He sent me a link trying to prove that he is a segregationist, and I told him that it doesn't matter if he is because it is still inappropriate, but he is still yelling at me at the articles talk page accusing me of being a racist. CLCStudent (talk) 21:31, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- I've explained on CLCStudent's talk page, hopefully that is all that is needed. Will watch a bit. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:37, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, I sense dispute resolution had not run it's course before posting here.—Bagumba (talk) 21:44, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- You are correct, which is why I'm taking it off-board :) Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:55, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- This IP editor may be part of the same 166.17x.x.x range that has been quite prominent for the last few months. There was evidence that the banned user Ararat arev uses this range, but in this case it is likely to be the IP editor who was topic banned from World's oldest people articles. Blackmane (talk) 01:13, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, I sense dispute resolution had not run it's course before posting here.—Bagumba (talk) 21:44, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
-
-
-
- The IP editor is right, it actually says as much in the Harry C. Byrd article itself, cited to the Washington Post and the Baltimore Sun, so there's no issue. KoshVorlon 12:17, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
-
-
Please put this in Template:In the news
(non-admin closure) BMK (talk) 04:28, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- The Japanese space probe Akatsuki successfully enters orbit around Venus, using only its attitude control thrusters.--LL221W (talk) 03:01, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- LL221W, the place to nominate items for In the News is WP:ITN/C. --kelapstick(bainuu) 03:03, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Discussion at CIVILITY
Withdrawn by OP. The disruption seems to have died down, and a new compromise has been suggested. Will re-open or re-file if necessary. Burninthruthesky (talk) 08:35, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Per the recommendations at WP:SQS, I would like to request an uninvolved admin refactor any disruptive and stonewalling comments at WT:CIVILITY#Link to workplace bullying article. I would also appreciate any advice on what to do next. Thank you. Burninthruthesky (talk) 07:44, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Industrial copyright violation of Wikipedia information
(non-admin closure) Nothing more to be done here. BMK (talk) 02:57, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The website www.callrecorded.com is reusing Wikipedia content on a series of pages, including for example http://callrecorded.com/london-underground-contact-number/ which copies London Underground. It does not include any license or attribution. Therefore it is a copyright violation of Wikipedia and someone with appropriate authority should seek to have it taken down.
It is an odious site which uses premium rate telephone numbers that redirect to the genuine (and cheaper) customer service telephone numbers of other organizations, which is legal, if a bit tawdry.
Who is in a position to raise this with the site? Stifle (talk) 09:28, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- It is attributed, in large letters at the bottom of the material copied from Wikipedia—they should technically be linking to the history page rather than the article page, but that's a minor point. Work submitted to Wikipedia can be edited, used, and redistributed—by anyone means "by anyone", not "by people you approve of". ‑ Iridescent 10:19, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- The CC BY-SA license requires that the license be quoted or linked to, and the authors attributed, neither of which has been done. Stifle (talk) 11:06, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Actually it doesnt. It requres attribution. Its good if it is done comprehensively, but it is not legally required. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:17, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- From the license: "You must include a copy of, or the Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) for, this License with every copy of the Work You Distribute or Publicly Perform." That is from section 4a which does not include the "reasonable to the medium" clause of section 4c. BethNaught (talk) 11:27, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Actually it doesnt. It requres attribution. Its good if it is done comprehensively, but it is not legally required. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:17, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- The CC BY-SA license requires that the license be quoted or linked to, and the authors attributed, neither of which has been done. Stifle (talk) 11:06, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- The official stance (in the form of a crafted template) that OTRS agents are directed to reply to tickets about reuse of Wikimedia content:
-
- "Dear Stifle,
- Thank you for bringing the reuse of Wikipedia content to our attention.
-
- As you may be aware, we encourage other sites to reuse our content. Wikipedia contributors license their content using a license called the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License (CC-BY-SA), which allows reuse of text either in its original form or with modifications provided that certain conditions are met. There are hundreds of web sites that do this. A list of some of them is available here:
-
- While we encourage all reusers to comply with the requirements of CC-BY-SA, including proper attribution for authors, we are aware of the fact that many web sites do not do so correctly. Thank you again for bringing this site to our attention.
- Yours sincerely,
- Ben Landry"
- Just FYI. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 20:08, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
What to do with User:JackTheVicar's content
As Ricky81682 wrote: "I suggest that this be closed as it looks like the G5 restoration under IAR has been approved or at least isn't objected. At to the greater policy implications behind G5, that's for WT:CSD". — Sebastian 02:55, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hi all -
Some time ago JacktheVicar was accused of being a sock of Colonel Henry. Via email and other means, he has since convinced me that the person behind the account is not the person who was behind Colonel Henry's account. Arbcom is still reviewing his ban, but in the meantime I wanted to discuss what to do what his content - some of it is quite good, including 3 GA's, and every article that has had it's references checked (including one where I tracked down obscure physical references) has not seen the same kind of fraudulent claims that characterized CH's work. JtV's GA's had already been restored on the basis of WP:BANREVERT and the fact that an article that other users had already given significant input to shouldn't be G5'ed. However, I'm proposing restoring all of his content - it's good, it's sourced, it doesn't as far as I can tell contain fraudulent claims, and it's about topics we were missing. If the discussion goes the other way, I'd be okay with personally redeleting the articles in question (except for the GA's,) but for the purposes of this discussion, I've restored all of the content he's created so that non-admins can view it - you can view it here, on his old userpage. I think the content is worth keeping, since it's good content (and the fact that I suspect it's not really G5able has something to do with my feeling as well,) but figured I'd start a further discussion here about what to do with it. Shall we keep it? Yay? Nay? Kevin Gorman (talk) 19:56, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think we should treat its deletion and restoration like any other content deleted via speedy deletion. The content can be deleted by an admin as a G5 (and it looks like a lot had) and any discussion about restoring particular content should be done at WP:DRV on a page-by-page basis. Prior discussions have been at ANI I believe and I think that's a poor way to do it because we're looking at it as an editor problem when we should be evaluating each page and the contributions within each page. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:28, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- So wait, not only it seems this user is now blocked out of an incorrect belief they were a sock; not only is an admin who previously unblocked this user under gunfire in the section just above this one; but the good content that this user has added has been deleted, and just above my comment, it is being proposed that it should only be restored by a lengthy page-by-page process? Wow, I'm for sure starting to understand why some people think there is a process/admin cabal in this place. LjL (talk) 20:33, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- No, there has been no final determination posted on-wiki regarding the sock claim; I think this is the most recent relevant thread. Opabinia regalis (talk) 20:42, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- So while a final determination is being determined and it's far from clear that socking has occurred, admittedly "good" content is being (or has already been) liberally deleted? LjL (talk) 21:04, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- No final determination has been posted on-wiki regarding the sock claim, but in light of the evidence I have I think he's either not a sock or this was part of a malicious plan to edit Wikipedia hatched fifteen years ago. I'm aware of WP:DRV, but when we're dealing with a batch of articles that are all reversed G5's, I think it may be excessive to put this many articles on DRV that require significant backstory to understand. I had already restored the GA's myself during the initial discussion, and decided to restore the rest of the content today for debate, because quite frankly most of it is pretty good content that we're not going to get written otherwise. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:07, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- It's a suggestion. The other discussion occurred at WT:CSD which I find even odder. The prior practice has been (a) deletion via G5; (b) restoration under an argument for IAR; and (c) an ANI discussion on whether it's an appropriate IAR use. I'm offering a suggestion for a more systematic way of dealing with these problems as they pop up again and again. If you want to unilaterally restore all of them, that's up to you and then we should just close this discussion and move on since I don't find that an abuse of IAR. Else I don't see why G5 restorations are argued here or at WT:CSD. I'd say we have a discussion that says whether or not it was socking, it is the content good enough to keep because other people have checked it and frankly I don't think this board is conducive to a serious discussion like that but in this case, if Kevin says it's good, I think we can close this as the G5 are all overturned. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:26, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
-
- Unfortunately, we can't have a discussion on-wiki about whether or not it was socking due to the nature of the matter involved if it wasn't. WMF, the functionary team, and myself concur on that point. I brought this up here for discussion just because many of my decisions are widely criticized, and I wanted basically a reflexed review of my exercise of IAR/not thinking G5 applies in the first place before I ended up at ANI myself :). I don't want to overload DRV with a bunch of articles that require backstory to understand why they were G5'ed that cannot be provided on-wiki, but wanted to have other eyes on the fact that I was restoring the content to begin with. Amusingly? One of the only places where I thought I had found a hoaxed sourced turned out to be hosted online and just super obscure, with the relevant information so faded that Adobe OCR couldn't pick it up (even though it could OCR the other 59 pages of a 60 page document...) Best, Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:31, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
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- I'm not saying that. A single DRV titled "User:JackTheVicar's pages" and mass list them would suffice. State that you've reviewed it and if people want to expand on that with you they can follow up. It's a weak case about socking versus good checked content. I would be shocked if a single person objected but if they did or it's some oddball split on which articles or whatever, at least it'll be done in a fashion that has some real community discussion (or SNOW-kept within a day) rather than an quick ANI discussion down here. There's not even a single notice on the pages for each of the articles, no notice to any of the relevant WikiProjects, nothing, nowhere. Here, we're arguing about whether the G5 reversal was wrong, but no one is looking at the content of the edits which is what should be the concern precisely because this place doesn't really operate for that. It's a minority position and it's not going to win me any favors. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:05, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- No final determination has been posted on-wiki regarding the sock claim, but in light of the evidence I have I think he's either not a sock or this was part of a malicious plan to edit Wikipedia hatched fifteen years ago. I'm aware of WP:DRV, but when we're dealing with a batch of articles that are all reversed G5's, I think it may be excessive to put this many articles on DRV that require significant backstory to understand. I had already restored the GA's myself during the initial discussion, and decided to restore the rest of the content today for debate, because quite frankly most of it is pretty good content that we're not going to get written otherwise. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:07, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- So while a final determination is being determined and it's far from clear that socking has occurred, admittedly "good" content is being (or has already been) liberally deleted? LjL (talk) 21:04, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- No, there has been no final determination posted on-wiki regarding the sock claim; I think this is the most recent relevant thread. Opabinia regalis (talk) 20:42, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- I used to be much more of a hardass about deleting this stuff, but if it is arguably helping Wikipedia (ie: useful, would pass AFD, meets criteria, etc) I'm less hawkish about deleting just to make a point. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:19, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
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- Indeed, not deleting content that is in every way encyclopedic seems like a good policy, no matter who wrote it. Doing otherwise would be taking WP:PUNITIVE to a whole new level: you don't even punish editors for they misdeeds any longer, you actually punish the entire encyclopedia. LjL (talk) 21:23, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell everything meets the GNG. I painstakingly factchecked one of the GA's and another editor separately factchecked one of the GA's (as in, separate from the normal GA process,) and I've also spotchecked quite a few of the articles I restored. None of them appear to lack notability or to have the factual deception that Colonel Henry article's did. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:26, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- On the other hand, if there was socking, it's not punished and the next puppetmaster will be encouraged. I think G5 is absurdly strict as it is but it's a bright-line at the moment. As I said above, if Kevin's reviewed it all, then fine with me. I just expect that we will find someone with a more complicated situation where AN or ANI will not be the way to solve and I'd prefer we resolve it rather than have sporadic discussions everywhere every time this comes up. Does someone want to suggest wording to WP:G5 itself about restoration? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:30, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think it is a bright line authority, but it doesn't force us to delete. No policy can force admin action and we can always ask the community. This is kind of classic WP:IAR territory, the question is how the community feels about it. I'm fine either way, but it seems a shame to lose good articles. There are plenty more articles that deserve deleting, like PR spam... Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:34, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Agree. Bright line authority to be able to delete which one admin did do. Kevin reversed that under IAR. Great, so this is IAR and not wheel-warring. As I said, I'm fine with it as an IAR situation. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:50, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- If an admin, or the admin community, or the entire community deems an article good and appropriate and at the same time they deem it should be deleted for reasons not to do with building an encyclopedia (such as that the main contributor is a sockpuppet/sockmaster), that has nothing to do with "bright-line rules" (aka WP:BURO in cases like this), but in fact, it would be outright irresponsible. LjL (talk) 21:54, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- And if it was a copyright problem? It depends on why the person was blocked, which is precisely why G5 says that it has to be created "in violation of their ban or block". Warden's problem was lying about citations, these pages don't have that, it's not the same. And frankly I don't care about the GAs or FAs as those are the easy cases where I doubt you'll find a lot of dispute because those articles get a lot of eyes and are review extensively. Jumping up and down yelling that someone is an idiot for deleting a FA created by a sock under G5 is low hanging fruit. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:59, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- If it was a copyright problem, then the article was not "appropriate" as I posited in the first place. What is worrying me about this is the transpiring idea that content might correctly be, and stay, deleted just because a blocked/sock user created it, even if any problem with the content itself is ruled out. You put forward that idea yourself above by suggesting that "it's not punished and the next puppetmaster will be encouraged" (punished? WP:PUNITIVE?). earlier, Dennis Brown admitted that he used (whew) to lean for deletion "just to make a point" (point? WP:POINT?). These ideas are not good for the encyclopedia, that's all, and we even have "WP:"s explaining why. LjL (talk) 22:05, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- And if it was a copyright problem? It depends on why the person was blocked, which is precisely why G5 says that it has to be created "in violation of their ban or block". Warden's problem was lying about citations, these pages don't have that, it's not the same. And frankly I don't care about the GAs or FAs as those are the easy cases where I doubt you'll find a lot of dispute because those articles get a lot of eyes and are review extensively. Jumping up and down yelling that someone is an idiot for deleting a FA created by a sock under G5 is low hanging fruit. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:59, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- If an admin, or the admin community, or the entire community deems an article good and appropriate and at the same time they deem it should be deleted for reasons not to do with building an encyclopedia (such as that the main contributor is a sockpuppet/sockmaster), that has nothing to do with "bright-line rules" (aka WP:BURO in cases like this), but in fact, it would be outright irresponsible. LjL (talk) 21:54, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Agree. Bright line authority to be able to delete which one admin did do. Kevin reversed that under IAR. Great, so this is IAR and not wheel-warring. As I said, I'm fine with it as an IAR situation. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:50, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think it is a bright line authority, but it doesn't force us to delete. No policy can force admin action and we can always ask the community. This is kind of classic WP:IAR territory, the question is how the community feels about it. I'm fine either way, but it seems a shame to lose good articles. There are plenty more articles that deserve deleting, like PR spam... Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:34, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- On the other hand, if there was socking, it's not punished and the next puppetmaster will be encouraged. I think G5 is absurdly strict as it is but it's a bright-line at the moment. As I said above, if Kevin's reviewed it all, then fine with me. I just expect that we will find someone with a more complicated situation where AN or ANI will not be the way to solve and I'd prefer we resolve it rather than have sporadic discussions everywhere every time this comes up. Does someone want to suggest wording to WP:G5 itself about restoration? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:30, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell everything meets the GNG. I painstakingly factchecked one of the GA's and another editor separately factchecked one of the GA's (as in, separate from the normal GA process,) and I've also spotchecked quite a few of the articles I restored. None of them appear to lack notability or to have the factual deception that Colonel Henry article's did. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:26, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Indeed, not deleting content that is in every way encyclopedic seems like a good policy, no matter who wrote it. Doing otherwise would be taking WP:PUNITIVE to a whole new level: you don't even punish editors for they misdeeds any longer, you actually punish the entire encyclopedia. LjL (talk) 21:23, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- One revert doesn't make a wheel war. I would guess you both represent a sizeable portion of the community in your opinions, both equally valid. You could raise it to a vote for KEEP, DELETE, or KEEP MOST and just delete anything there is any question on or that requires entirely too much checking on. I would assume GA and FA stuff would be ok, for example, as they (theoretically) have some peer review. WP:AN would be a reasonable place to open it up for a day or two. Or don't, just an idea. What we don't want is a dead lock that forces them to keep due to wheel concerns, however, so better to vote. And the "point" is to discourage socking by not rewarding them, which sounds fine in theory, but isn't effective for cases like this. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:07, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed. As to LjL's concern, then get G5 repealed. I don't care. It is to make a point, namely to the idiot socking to go back to your main and admit all your socks. That's been done before and then the content is all restored and no one cares. Else, we get rounds of fighting with editors who repeatedly sock for years arguing that they should be allowed to go at it because the content is good, even if they been topic banned from the area or outright banned or driven off other editors or done legal threats or outside harassment or whatever else they've done. If your view is that literally no conduct at all matters as long as the person produces good content, then fine, there's plenty of people who support that view. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:11, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
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- The conduct matters, you just don't react to it by removing the existing admittedly good content. I have difficulty not seeing that as obvious. LjL (talk) 22:13, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- If a child steals a candy bar, you don't simply tell them to never steal again, you take that candy bar away. At least that is the principle. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:46, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Really, Dennis? How can you get it backwards so blatantly? The correct comparison is: "If you told a child to go to their room, and she instead went to the kitchen to bake cookies for hungry people in your neighborhood, you then throw the cookies away to punish her." — Sebastian 01:02, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- I must be in less good company than I hoped thinking that this was, first and foremost, an encyclopedia, where the ultimate goal was to have (and WP:PRESERVE) good encyclopedic content, and everything else came after that. LjL (talk) 02:13, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- And telling users who have been banned and are not permitted to edit here (for whatever reason) that if they try to sneakily come back and pull the same stunts (by possibly deleting their content), we do just that. If the goal is to have as much content long-term then we may have some short-term pain to suffer. It's no different than the fact that we do actually have to delete some things so it's easier to organize and manage the rest. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:48, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- If a child steals a candy bar, you don't simply tell them to never steal again, you take that candy bar away. At least that is the principle. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:46, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- The conduct matters, you just don't react to it by removing the existing admittedly good content. I have difficulty not seeing that as obvious. LjL (talk) 22:13, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
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Nevertheless, I suggest that this be closed as it looks like the G5 restoration under IAR has been approved or at least isn't objected. At to the greater policy implications behind G5, that's for WT:CSD. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:50, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Is Wayback Machine down?
I've noticed that Archive.org / Wayback Machine has been fundraising, and now I'm finding I can't call up any content past the opening page. For example this archived link from November which used to show up fine is now only showing a blank white page. This happens with every URL I try. Is anyone else experiencing this? Is the site down?
I've cleared my cache and done all the other usual things. I have an ad blocker, but it's been in place for two months without any effect on Archive.org / Wayback Machine.
That archive being such an important resource to us in order to avoid link rot, I thought it would be OK to bring up the question here since admins may have more direct knowledge of this critical component than a general editor might. If there is a project page for Wayback Machine on Wikipedia, I couldn't find it, though, of course, I'd be happy to move this query to whatever page is appropriate if not this one.--Tenebrae (talk) 23:20, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Your link loads for me. It just loads a bit slowly, something that has always been the case in my experience with the Wayback Machine. It's far from the fastest site in the world. LjL (talk) 23:28, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Same. Works but slow, slower than usual. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:38, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
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- Hmm. Spoke too soon. I let that archived link from November sit for 12 minutes and nothing came up but a blank page. I guess I'll try writing the Wayback people and report back. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:19, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
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Mathematical constant
Please delete this revision of Mathematical constant. I was looking at my contributions, and it looked like I moved the page Mathematical constant twice in 2006. However, I only moved it once, and it was moved back. Normally, when a page is moved, this does not happen. Please delete this edit to make things less confusing. Timo3 14:11, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Such a rev-deletion wouldn't fall under any of the grounds listed at Wikipedia:Revision deletion#Criteria for redaction. Your move log is correct so far as I can see. In my opinion, there is no problem that needs fixing. EdJohnston (talk) 00:34, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- It looks to me like you first moved the article, and then upon finding the redirect that was sitting there, you moved the redirect as well. Note that the article has previously been subject to a history merge, so probably the redirect-moving got undeleted by accident. I decided to un-confuse things by hiding the redirect-move, but while I've tried twice, it still won't work; I checked the box to restore the edit in question, clicked "Invert" (i.e. everything was checked except that edit), and restored, and it restored that edit too; and then I restored the edits in chunks, concluding with clicking two boxes out of the three that hadn't yet been undeleted, and yet it restored this one with the other two. I don't know what else to do; I guess we're just stuck with it. Nyttend (talk) 03:57, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Nyttend: Yes, this is bug T20104. Graham87 13:09, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- It looks to me like you first moved the article, and then upon finding the redirect that was sitting there, you moved the redirect as well. Note that the article has previously been subject to a history merge, so probably the redirect-moving got undeleted by accident. I decided to un-confuse things by hiding the redirect-move, but while I've tried twice, it still won't work; I checked the box to restore the edit in question, clicked "Invert" (i.e. everything was checked except that edit), and restored, and it restored that edit too; and then I restored the edits in chunks, concluding with clicking two boxes out of the three that hadn't yet been undeleted, and yet it restored this one with the other two. I don't know what else to do; I guess we're just stuck with it. Nyttend (talk) 03:57, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
ArbCom election results live
Hi all,
Just a note to say the ArbCom election have now concluded, and results have been posted. 9 Arbs have been elected in total, 8 on two-year terms and 1 on a one-year term. You can review the results in full here.
For the Election Commission, Mdann52 (talk) 19:20, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Mdann52: Probably massively stupid question here, but: is there a way to go back and review your own vote? Thanks in advance... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:39, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- @IJBall: I don't believe so unfortunately. I'll see what I can do however. Mdann52 (talk) 19:46, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- So, I have a dump of all the votes. However, these are not linked to anything to identify the user, so unfortunately, it is impossible now. Mdann52 (talk) 19:49, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Bummer... I'm pretty sure I know how I voted, but I just wanted to double-check a couple of them. Anyway, it would be great if they could figure out a way to allow users to review their own votes in the future. But, thanks! --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:58, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
I need help with the page on Venezuelan politician Leopoldo López, which looks like a political ad
Before my edits on Leopoldo López, the entire article was written like a terrible political tract from the 19th century. For example, on a claim that Lopez left his office as mayor of Chacao with a 92% approval rating, a press release from the Harvard Alumni Association, not a citable news source, in the process of giving one of their own (López) a lifetime achievement award (the same press release characterises the Venezuelan government as "hating freedom") is the only source cited, with the other source just mirroring the statement on the Harvard Alumnis press release.
Entire quotes of glowing, showering praise (as well as Lopez' own personal aphorisms) litter the page, sometimes, with the only sources being a newspaper in Venezuela with a particularly pro-Lopez editorial stance, or even an undergrad student from Penn State University.
Weasel-words like "Greatly" as in "greatly improved public transportation", abound the page.
Even the "Controversy" section originally only contained criticism of the Venezuelan government! This entire page was written like a political ad, attempting to compare Leopoldo López with Nelson Mandela, and there are a patrol of users who constantly come by to scrub it of any criticism, including any mention of Lopez' active role in the 2002 Venezuelan coup.
Personally, I'm far from a fan of Hugo Chavez or Bolivarian Socialism (and personally, my opinion is irrespective of the facts), but this page is written like it was made by a bunch of political spin doctors right out of the office of Leopoldo Lopez.
Please help. I wouldn't want all the edits to simply come from me; I need more collaborative help in making this article better, and have it read less like a campaign ad or an editorial Solntsa90 (talk) 03:11, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- I have some experience with getting articles on controversial political figures to GA, so I'll come and take a look. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:34, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
WP:SPI
Any administrator who had interaction with CosmicEmperor, should comment on this SPI, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/CosmicEmperor. --The Avengers 14:57, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
Needing Some Help
Not really sure where else to ask this, but is there an admin or a non-admin editor who could answer some questions on Featured Lists. I've read the criteria, but the kind list I want to take to FL status has never been on FL, so I have nothing to go by. Hence the need to ask questions. Thanks. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 14:59, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- I would try asking at Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates or Wikipedia talk:Featured list criteria — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:12, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Is it List of lists of lists? Bonus internet points if it is. :) Reyk YO! 15:17, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- @The Rambling Man: is the first person that comes to mind when Featured lists are mentioned. Two points I would make is that the writing standards are not on a par with FAs, and that unless you publicise your FL nomination it does run the risk of suffering death by silence (and hence a non-promotion) if it's on a bit of an out of the way topic. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:32, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Reyk: Nope, it isn't. :) But I bet I could create one. :)
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- Ritchie333: What do you mean the writing standards aren't on par? Like they are lower, less stringent? Publicizing how? Like on the front page, the WikiProject talk page?
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- I would say the prose quality is similar to GAs, it has to be readable and informative, but it doesn't have to be on a level that competes with critically acclaimed published works, which is what I would expect FAs to be. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:56, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
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- The page is List of radio stations in Virginia. I am hoping to get each of the seperate radio stations up to at least GA status. I have 3 in Virginia (1 in West Virginia) so far and 1 at FA status. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 20:13, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
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- Ritchie333: OK, that I can do. As for the "publicizing", what do I do there? - Neutralhomer • Talk • 11:24, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
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- It's a bit like "Make your own programming language and then make it popular", but one way is to see which projects the list article is on and drop a note on the talk page. Or see who else has edited the list, or similar lists, and if they do a lot of work and have a lot of featured list reviews under their belt, drop them a line. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:28, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Ritchie333: OK, that makes sense. I thought there was something special I had to do. Wasn't sure since I haven't done one of these before. Would it be OK, while I am working on the FL, to message you with questions and the like? - Neutralhomer • Talk • 11:35, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- It's a bit like "Make your own programming language and then make it popular", but one way is to see which projects the list article is on and drop a note on the talk page. Or see who else has edited the list, or similar lists, and if they do a lot of work and have a lot of featured list reviews under their belt, drop them a line. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:28, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
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While we're asking questions like this, is there the equivalent of a noticeboard or Help desk specifically devoted to AfD and article deletions? While either Random Page Patrolling or sometimes while Reviewing, I'll come across an article which I wonder if it should be AfD'ed (I came across another one like this just yesterday), but I'll never do it on my own without getting some feedback from folks around here with "more knowledge" about deletions first. So it would be really useful if there was forum or noticeboard that was a clearinghouse for questions like this... TIA. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:08, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
Slow motion Edit war and deleting the Citation needed request .
User Zirguezi , in answer of my demand for sources , insists on getting back sources that are neither Reliable , nor related to the matter 1 2. Talk page discussion failure and personal attacks [Flag of Iraqi Kurdistan is not the flag of all Kurdish groups] ( on section Flag of Iraqi Kurdistan is not the flag of all Kurdish groups) . Can an admin please help ? --Alborz Fallah (talk) 17:54, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- I too would like an opinion of this situation. User:Alborz Fallah requested a source, which I provided. In my opinion they are reliable, relevant and related to the matter. They prove exactly the point I was making. Alborz Fallah makes a claim that goes against what the sources I have provided say. I'm willing to accept that I might be wrong but just as he has a right to ask for sources so do I ask him for sources that dispute the claim. If it turns out there is enough discussion about this in literature we should probably add both sides to the article. N.B.: the personal attack is indeed disruptive and did not come from me. ~ Zirguezi 19:16, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- BTW shouldn't this request be filed at WP:DRN or any of the other boards at WP:SEEKHELP? ~ Zirguezi 19:21, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
Backlog at Wikipedia:Copyright problems
The assistance of knowledgeable administrators is requested at Wikipedia:Copyright problems which is currently experiencing an extensive backlog. --Bejnar (talk) 20:00, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Some extra hands would be very welcome there – the backlog is slowly but surely becoming severe. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:14, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
Range block needed
See the recent history of my talk page, and Floquenbeam's. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:09, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- The page protection should work. The ranges are too disparate for blocking.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 02:19, 11 December 2015 (UTC)- The IP has engaged in the same vandalism on a number of other user talk pages, including mine and many others. Minor4th 02:21, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- I've done a small rangeblock to cover most of the addresses used. Between that and liberal short-term protections, that should make it tiresome and un-fun . An edit filter would be a fine idea, and should be easy to implement. Acroterion (talk) 02:23, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- The edits seemed to be automated, considering they were all made in a timespan of a few seconds. In other words, this probably needs to be brought to WMF asap. <<< SOME GADGET GEEK >>> (talk) 03:05, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- I've done a small rangeblock to cover most of the addresses used. Between that and liberal short-term protections, that should make it tiresome and un-fun . An edit filter would be a fine idea, and should be easy to implement. Acroterion (talk) 02:23, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- The IP has engaged in the same vandalism on a number of other user talk pages, including mine and many others. Minor4th 02:21, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
And another
Rangeblockers, please have a look at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Bias_from_rape_supporters, for the 166 IP who keeps harassing Ricky81682. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 05:43, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
Ban time?
(The time may not be ripe, but it's probably as good as it is going to get) I've been having a look through active threads as well as archives of ANI and AN concerning the 166.x.x.x addresses. As far as I have been able to determine, there are 3 banned users who have been known to use these IPs, User:Ararat arev (a persistent Egyptian POV pusher), User:David Beals (the ceiling fan vandal) and User:Kochtruth (a Koch "truther"), as well as someone who frequented, and was subsequently topic banned from, the World's oldest people articles and associated AFDs. The latter has also developed a particular vendetta against Ricky81682, as Drmies notes, mainly because of his activity in raising AFD's on WOP articles. Given the persistent disruption from this IP range, I formally propose that the user(s) behind these IP edits be indefinitely site banned from Wikipedia. I feel that this is appropriate as 3 of the users known to use this range are site banned already and the IP only editor only posts to harass Ricky81682 or troll other threads. There is already a precedent for community banning an IP editor, see the "Best known for" IP editor. Blackmane (talk) 03:38, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
Can someone fix the edit history at Petite France?
Done by Jenks24.
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
One of my students was supposed to create an article about Petite France, Gapyeong. He did, but he pasted his sandbox (User:HyunYang/PetitFrance) it on top of the Petite France disambig. Could an admin properly split the edit history, i.e. move the students edits to Petite France, Gapyeong /w correct attribution, and restore the disambig? Thanks, --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:09, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Terren Scott Peizer
Terren Peizer appears to be salted so the latest shill to advertise this individual created a page at Terren Scott Peizer. Page should be moved to the more common Terren Peizer. duffbeerforme (talk) 13:25, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Done. --Jayron32 14:43, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Renzoy16, if I may ask, where does that article come from? Given your usual interest--Filipino entertainment topics--this seems a bit out of the ordinary. Drmies (talk) 16:10, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
Disruptive edits, edit warring in Armenia area
Hello all--
I need someone to look at the edits made by Felaket91, who's reverting without explanation on some Armenian topics. I think they're at 3RR already on some articles though I haven't checked (and I don't want to overburden poor EdJohnston and Bbb23 at their notice board). I pasted a DS warning on their talk page, after having left a few notes, yet they reverted again. Other editors involved to some extent are Ninetoyadome and Golbez; both have reverted Felaket's edits (though without much explanation). I think they're ready for a block, if only for being utterly incommunicado. Diplomacy and warnings don't seem to work. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 15:16, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Looks like an Azerbaijani SPA regarding the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic to me, as most of their stuff is related to land areas that fall within the breakaway region which currently has parts occupied by the Armenian army (which disputes the territory). Oddly enough I think most of the edits are actually factually correctly from a brief skimming. Armenia does (or did) occupy parts of Nagorno-Karabakh region, Azer disputes it and I *believe* but would have to look into it, the UN supports the AZ position. But they are certainly edit warring. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:23, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- I looked less at content than at behavior--but the sourcing is also a problem and, as I told the editor, the writing. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 15:56, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- I did actually explain my reason for reverting his edits: I stated how most of the articles he posted it on already stated that exact same thing so what was the point of mentioning it twice on a paragraph article. The user did not respond to my explanation and reverted it. I am not edit warring as i just reverted it once and stopped. The user does not seem to want to be constructive as if they did they would explain the additions. Ninetoyadome (talk) 18:25, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Ninetoyadome, you did the first time. Take it easy--this isn't about you. Drmies (talk) 22:53, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- I did actually explain my reason for reverting his edits: I stated how most of the articles he posted it on already stated that exact same thing so what was the point of mentioning it twice on a paragraph article. The user did not respond to my explanation and reverted it. I am not edit warring as i just reverted it once and stopped. The user does not seem to want to be constructive as if they did they would explain the additions. Ninetoyadome (talk) 18:25, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- I looked less at content than at behavior--but the sourcing is also a problem and, as I told the editor, the writing. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 15:56, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- I see Berean Hunter has acted. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 22:54, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
I want to point out that I also explained my edits, so both instances where you said someone reverted without explanation was wrong. Thing is, I simply don't care anymore. I don't have the energy to deal with Armenian/Azeri vandals unless that "dealing" is through an instant, unexplained block. Since that's not allowed, I'm not going to put in the time necessary for pointless warnings and templates. I've already unwatched most of the articles in that area, because, eh, the jerks want them, the jerks can have them. ... On the other hand, maybe I should just start blocking them on sight, and wait until someone actually cares to bring me to some form of disciplinary action. Hm. Probably would work. --Golbez (talk) 23:14, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- It's usually not hard to get admin action in extremely blatant cases, regarding Armenia-Azerbaijan. This one was extremely blatant. Even AE, which is known for its slowness, can move quickly when it's a one-sided case. Thanks to Drmies for flagging this issue and User:Berean Hunter for doing the block. EdJohnston (talk) 03:48, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
- Golbez, I said "without much explanation"; italics mine. Zangilan District bears that out. But that wasn't the point--I said that because a. well, it's true and b. it means that I cannot easily make sweeping statements about what the now-blocked editor's work indicates, since y'all didn't help me much (understandable since you've been doing it for a while, but still). I brought it here rather than block on the spot because it's important to get it right, especially in such difficult topic areas, and I thank Berean Hunter (and Ed!) for looking into it as well. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 06:29, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Possible abuse of multiple accounts
- MaudeG3 (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · SUL · CA · checkuser (log))
- KimberlySawchuk (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · SUL · CA · checkuser (log))
- Miami19 (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · SUL · CA · checkuser (log))
- SakuKuri (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · SUL · CA · checkuser (log))
- MyriamACT (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · SUL · CA · checkuser (log))
- timeflieslike (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · SUL · CA · checkuser (log))
Edits by all these accounts are to the narrow topic area of aging. MaudeG3, a new user registered in February 2015, created Wikipedia:WikiProject Ageing and culture, but was advised by Jeraphine Gryphon that he shouldn't have created it outside of the WP:WikiProject Council/Proposals process. MaudeG3 replied that he was "recruiting" participants. The very first edit of each of the others (apart from KimberlySawchuk) were to add themselves as participants to the WikiProject. KimberleySawchuk's first edit was to an AFD related to aging and the remaining ones to MaudeG3's sandbox. None of the acconuts have been particularly active. To me, this looks like a clear case of sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry. Not to mention that even MaudeG3's first edits don't look like that of a typical new editor. 103.6.159.75 (talk) 19:37, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think you should be taking this to WP:SPI. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:50, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
- Hannaharlia (talk · · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · SUL · CA · checkuser (log))
- Still looking...an SPI report may still result but since he said "possible", this is perhaps better since an SPI may be taken as a full blown accusation of socking. This way, the IP editor can get assistance. I've added the above editor based on their contribs to Centre for Women, Ageing and Media which has been recreated multiple times and deleted multiple times.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 20:06, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
- None of these accounts have edited in the last couple of months, I'm not sure what the problem is (or was, or could have been). — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 20:27, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
-
- The static IP, 132.205.236.66 from Concordia University pulled the AfD tag off of the article Kim Sawchuk and they all have something to do with Activist ageing as seen by this edit describing their workshop. Here the IP forms the ref, Sawchuk, K. (2013). Tactical mediatization and activist ageing: pressures, push-backs, and the story of RECAA. I guess labeling Billy Graham as a Conspiracy theorist must be one of their push-backs. Their group is:
- "Ageing + Communication + Technologies (ACT) brings together researchers and institutional and community partners to address the transformation of the experiences of ageing with the proliferation of new forms of mediated communications in networked societies. Together, we investigate the intersection of ageing and digital technologies. The world’s population is ageing and ‘the senior citizen’ is expected to become the largest demographic group in the Western World. At the same time, there has been a proliferation of digital devices, information technologies and mediated systems of communication that network populations globally. Our project addresses how those in later life are experiencing a world that is increasingly mediated."diff
- Should they be guided towards the education project or closed down as meatpuppets?
— Berean Hunter (talk) 20:40, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
-
- LMAO, the Raging Grannies are here.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 21:07, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
- LMAO, the Raging Grannies are here.
Genetically modified organisms case closed
This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:
1) Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised for all pages relating to genetically modified organisms, agricultural biotechnology, and agricultural chemicals, broadly construed.
2) Editors are prohibited from making more than one revert per page per day on any page relating to genetically modified organisms, agricultural biotechnology, and agricultural chemicals, broadly construed and subject to the usual exemptions.
3) Jytdog and DrChrissy are placed indefinitely under a two-way interaction ban.
7) DrChrissy is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to genetically modified plants and agricultural chemicals, broadly interpreted; appeals of this ban may be requested no earlier than twelve months since the date the case closed.
8) Jytdog is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to genetically modified organisms and agricultural chemicals, broadly interpreted; appeals of this ban may be requested no earlier than twelve months since the date the case closed.
9) Jytdog is admonished for their poor civility in relation to the locus of this case.
11) SageRad is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to genetically modified organisms and agricultural chemicals, broadly construed; appeals of this ban may be requested no earlier than twelve months since the date the case closed.
12) Wuerzele is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to genetically modified organisms and agricultural chemicals, broadly construed; appeals of this ban may be requested no earlier than twelve months since the date the case closed.
- Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Genetically modified organisms case closed
Page creation for redirect for flag of Kosovo emoji request
Thank you. Joshua Garner (talk) 04:32, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Judson High School
Admin action is required at WP:RFPP, Judson High School. Thanks. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:50, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Deletion
There is a user who is hell-bent on deleting my articles. While none of us can expect to never have an article deleted, this case seems ill-motivated and spiteful. If you look at my talk page, his language is flippant and sarcastic. He has changed his user name from "user: ABriefPassing" to "ALongStay" back to "ABriefPassing." I suspect that there is sockpuppetry going on in addition to the harassment. I also mentioned these same concerns to Lfarone (I also notified Swarm). Lfarone recommended that I make a report. I am not familiar with this whole terrain--I've never before been harassed. Can anyone help me? Garagepunk66 (talk) 07:49, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- There's nothing wrong with nominating the articles for deletion per se, they're raising an argument and it's a matter for consensus to decide. That being said, their unprovoked, incredibly spiteful and openly hostile communication is beyond anything that can be tolerated and borders on harassment, so I've blocked them until they familiarize themselves with our behavioral standards and can agree to abide by them. How long they stay blocked is entirely dependent on when they can act like a civil community member. I don't think this is personal hounding and they seem to have a policy-based concern, so you should just make your case at AfD and trust the process. Swarm ♠ 08:41, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
-
- Thanks for your help. It appears to be one user who is operating under at least different names. Thanks. Garagepunk66 (talk) 16:00, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Galleries of personalities in the infoboxes
There was a discussion about the necessity of galleries of personalities in the infoboxes of articles about ethnic groups: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups#The_necessity_of_galleries_of_personalities_in_the_infoboxes.
Since there was not comment in the last days, can an administrator please close it and formulate the conclusion? 185.55.217.8 (talk) 07:55, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- It is inappropriate for an admin to close what is basically a poll of editors who visit this WikiProject talk page. To be official, this issue has to be neutrally worded in an RfC that is publicized on Wikipedia in a variety of areas since it is a request to remove galleries from ALL ethnic group articles. There need to be more editors involved in this discussion and the RfC needs to be open 30 days. Liz Read! Talk! 22:56, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Notice of change to edit filter guideline
Just to note that as a result of this RfC, all edit filter managers are requested to post at the edit filter noticeboard prior to setting an edit filter to the 'disallow' setting unless in an emergency, in which case the notification should be made after changing the setting. Sam Walton (talk) 21:20, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Password security RfC at meta
There is currently an RfC at meta to increase password length to 8 characters and prevent common passwords being used for accounts which can edit the MediaWiki: namespace and who are covered by the nonpublic information policy (CheckUsers and Oversighters) - meta:Requests for comment/Password policy for users with certain advanced permissions. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:24, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
RfA Policy RfC Closed
This RfC has been closed and the following changes will go into effect, effective immediately:
- RfAs will now be advertised on watch list notices.
- There will be a waiting period of 12-24 hours. Admin discretion may be exercised, before the 24 hour waiting period.
- The usernames or the details of the RfA are not to be revealed. A short and simple one liner such as, "There are RfAs open for discussion."
- RfAs will now be advertised on Template:CENT.
- Some desire to use {{:User:Cyberpower678/RfX Report}} on the template has been expressed, though it is not a requirement. Cyberpower678 is willing to make changes to the template as needed, if desired.
- The advertisement on CENT does not carry the same restrictions that watch list notices have.
- There is now a limit on the number of questions a specific user can ask a candidate.
- The limit is 2 questions.
- Appropriate relevant follow-up questions are allowed.
- Obvious gaming should be dealt with accordingly.
- The discretionary range is now 65-75%.
If there is a problem with my close, please let me know.—cyberpowerMerry Christmas:Unknown 08:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
List of Iranian people by net worth
Hi,
This article above has been vandalized numerous time. Yet, no admin seems ready to protect this article. Wrong information has been sitting there for more than one month now. I did the rv but I would like to inform you in a friendly manner that this compromises the reliability of Wikipedia in general.
Best,
Duvalier123 (talk) 16:08, 14 December 2015 (UTC)