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Contents
- 1 Mistakes in USA gubernatorial election results.
- 2 Consensus on pre-election opinion polls
- 3 Turkish elections template
- 4 Proposed manual of style for election articles
- 5 Sources for opinion-poll tables
- 6 Proposal to remove flagicons from {{Infobox election}} this series templates
- 7 Help needed
- 8 Proposed naming convention (UK Parliament constituencies)
- 9 Names of candidates on election pages
- 10 Opinion poll overkill
- 11 Strange election result in Mali
- 12 Single-member constituencies without primaries?
- 13 Bolding of winners in election infoboxes
- 14 Leaflet For Wikiproject Elections and Referendums At Wikimania 2014
- 15 Tagging articles for inclusion in this WikiProject
- 16 Assessing importance/class for articles
- 17 United_States_Senate_special_election_in_New_Jersey,_2013#Polling_3
- 18 Polling and what makes a candidate a candidate, part ?
- 19 Local election notability
- 20 Bot to tag articles for the WikiProject
Mistakes in USA gubernatorial election results.
Please see the write up at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2011-04-18/In the news and the comment at the bottom (transcluded talk page). -- Jeandré, 2011-04-19t13:37z
Consensus on pre-election opinion polls
Can anyone here guide me to some central discussion that formed a consensus regarding inclusion of opinion poll data for elections that have not yet taken place? My concerns are principally those of WP:NOTNEWS and a more generic appreciation that polls, and polls of polls, can be wayward even though the psephologists love them and the candidates do if the results are in their favour. More specifically, if a poll appears to be conducted by an independent body but that body acknowledges it had "technical assistance" from someone who is a recognised psephologist but who has turned to an active political role, what the heck do we do? Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 19:05, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
Turkish elections template
The template Template:Turkish elections seems to have been spun off into another template, Template:Turkish presidential elections. The user Number 57 claims that this is "convention," since pre-2007 constitutional amendment to the Turkish Constitution, Presidents of Turkey were elected by the legislature instead of the public. However, in a similar case, the template Template:United States Senate elections DOES list American senatorial elections before the 17th amendment, which also switched elections of senators from legislatures to the public.
I find no reason to unnecessarily diverge election templates unless they are very massive, which Template:Turkish elections is not. Articles exist for pre-2007 presidential elections by the legislature, and diverging the elections template almost eliminates their visibility.
Instead of spinning off the presidential elections, I propose that the original Template:Turkish elections be edited to include both, in a separate fashion, like this: Old revision of Template:Turkish elections
Ithinkicahn (talk) 18:36, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- Just to give a bit of (conveniently omitted) background, other countries with indirect presidential elections have separate templates – {{German presidential elections}}, {{Israeli presidential elections}}, {{Pakistani presidential elections}}, {{Albanian presidential elections}}, {{Italian presidential elections}}), {{Moldovan presidential elections}} – so the US Senate template comparison is not particularly relevant. If anything the US Senate comparison supports the existence of separate templates for the Presidency because it is a template for a single institution, and some of the templates above (e.g. the German and Moldovan ones) do separate the indirect and direct elections.
- However, the question of whether this convention should continue is a relevant question. If the decision is to include, I would rather they appeared on a single line (like this) rather than splitting the template. Number 57 18:52, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- Them appearing on a single line is fine by me, but you wanted to disclude them for being indirect elections, so why not delineate them? Ithinkicahn (talk) 19:01, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
Proposed manual of style for election articles
Being one of the few editors who edits election articles across numerous countries, I'm growing increasingly frustrated with editors only interested in elections in their own countries trying to impose their particular style on said articles, ignoring common practice elsewhere. Currently we have no standard layout for election articles to refer them to, so as a result, I have created a proposed manual of style for election articles, specifically what headings such articles should have, these being:
- Background
- Electoral system
- Candidates (single-post elections only)
- Campaign
- Opinion polls
- Conduct
- Results
- Aftermath
- References
- External links
I have also proposed a common layout of results tables, as at the moment there are numerous tables and templates floating around out there, most of which are designed by individual editors who use them only on the articles they edit. As elections formats are too varied to produce a realistically workable template, I have proposed that we use simple wikitables as they can be manipulated in many different ways, and the coding is much simpler. In many cases editors have created off-article templates for a single transclusion, which I don't believe is good practice (and then actually transcluding the template onto the article leaves the now-redundant v-d-e coding present).
Thoughts on both sets of proposals are welcome. Cheers, Number 57 13:11, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Is this for "Elections in" articles, specific elections, or both? I ask because I think we should start standardizing formats for both. Editors like me simply don't have the time nor the patience to canvas current best practices. Int21h (talk) 15:04, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- How are we going to handle multiple round elections? Or elections with primaries? Would those be subsections of the "Candidates" section? (See e.g. New York City mayoral election, 2013.) Int21h (talk) 15:10, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry, I didn't notice that was a wikilink to an actual MOS proposal. Yes, I support this. Int21h (talk) 19:04, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
Theres no need to 'standardise'. Timeshift (talk) 21:55, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
- This is not about standardising content, but about setting articles out in a consistent format - there can, in theory, be unlimited sub-sections beneath the ones suggested above. We have manuals of style all over Wikipedia (e.g. this one for national football teams or this one for novels), yet we have nothing for election articles. Because there are so few active editors in this field, it would be very useful to have something to refer back to when cleaning up articles, as it's almost impossible to get sufficient knowledgeable input to individual disputes every time they happen. Number 57 22:14, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
- It is about a proposed manual of style, which like all WP:MOS, are guidelines. So, in terms of "standardization", it would be like a standard where everything is prefaced with "should" or "may", but would lack any "must" terms. This comes up often, so to repeat: following a MOS is not a must. Int21h (talk) 07:09, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
Don't we sorta follow this already? Seeing that we sorta do, there should be no problem in a MOS. I don't remember seeing a "conduct" section in many articles, though.... –HTD 19:58, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
At first glance I notice that missing from the proposed templates are election title & date, party colour/color and ± % (percentage change) - and plenty more that may be relevant to a particular political system. As a creator of election templates that are now found on several projects I must say I don't think this proposal is workable. If you think you can decide this issue globally then I'd invite you to post this proposal on every single Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_[Country]/politics page and see what sort of response you get. My guess is all you'll achieve is dispute, and if one particular standardisation was enforced, retirement of editors who've previously been passionate about editing in their own sphere of interest. Finally, I consider we already have standard layouts, you'll find them at Category:Election and referendum infobox templates - I notice it the proposed results tables there are no templates referenced - do you propose creating new templates and/or deprecating those that don't fit a new 'world-view'? Fan | talk | 21:20, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- You've hit the nail on the head about disputes, and why I started this discussion. I'm interested in elections around the world, and have been adding a standard results table to articles in pretty much every country for years with no problem (not a table of my own devising, but one I picked up when I started working on election articles). However, I recently had difficulties with an editor focussed on a single country and their particular style, which escalated into them following me to other articles on other countries where they had no previous interest and changing formats to their preferred style. Because there is no official standard, there's nothing to refer back to when this kind of problem comes up, and due to the relatively number of small people editing in this field, especially those not focussed on their own country (I would say there are fewer than 10 editors I know who edit articles on elections in more than one country), I'm beginning to pick up on some WP:OWNership issues for articles on certain countries. If editors with that problem retire because they can no longer get their way, then I have to confess that I don't see it being a problem. In other WikiProjects I'm a member of, there are agreed table formats, which are applied to articles across the globe regardless of the country.
- With regards to the results tables, there is a long discussion on the talk page of that specific proposal, with the current result being this template, which does include party colours, but could have other optional features added to it. I am aware of the category of templates you link to, but as far as I am aware, they are used only to display single candidate election (i.e. constituencies or wards) rather than full national results, which is what this discussion is about. Number 57 22:10, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- No two countries have the same electoral system, let alone political one. Why should Wikipedia have a "one size fits all" election template? doktorb wordsdeeds 22:50, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
-
- Indeed jurisdictions have different systems, but this proposal is not one size. It is akin to a conversion to metric measurements, not a single metric number, but a metric measurement system. Its saying that everyone's clothes should not use different measurement systems. My analogy is not really solid, but it makes sense with respect to a one-size-fits-all analogy. Int21h (talk) 02:02, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
- I indeed think this proposal is workable globally. I also think your suggestion to post the proposal on every single national WikiProject politics subpage is good: it should be done. These are the editors that need to be aware of this. Of course certain types of progress (uniformity, standardization) is going to run into issues, and I think bringing problems up here should be enough to overcome minor WP:OWNERSHIP issues/disputes. I should also note, as I feel that I need to always reiterate this, a MoS is not be-all-end-all reflection of community standards; it is a moment-in-time reflection of views of those who were involved in the MoS's creation, not the community's. Int21h (talk) 01:59, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Sources for opinion-poll tables
There is a discussion in progress at Talk:United States Senate election in Nebraska, 2014 concerning the formatting of opinion-poll tables. The issue is whether a link to a source should be in the form of an external link, piped through the polling organization's name; or whether it should be presented as a formatted citation. The difference between the two formats can be seen in this diff
I'd suggest that formatted citations are more appropriate, per WP:ELPOINTS, which deprecates ELs in most situations, and whose short list of exceptions doesn't appear to apply here; and because ELs are subject to linkrot, and don't allow the reader to evaluate the source without actually following the link. Another editor maintains that ELs are not only permissible but desirable, as in keeping with the usual practice in articles about elections, and in view of this has reverted my addition of formatted footnotes.
Could we get some opinions from members of this WikiProject? Thanks. Ammodramus (talk) 03:34, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Proposal to remove flagicons from {{Infobox election}} this series templates
WP:MOSICON outlines a number of reason why these flags are not required along with the following reasons
- They requires knowledge of 160+ flags (not including sub national flags if they are used)
- They requires the ability to distinguish between similar flags at 25px
- These templates are rarely if ever on pages where the country hasn't been mentioned a dozen time before fixed sentence fragment
- MOSICON only makes an argument for "visual cue" in long lists which these aren't. The country name is a few pixels away from the flag and words are clearer (WP:WORDPRECEDENT)
Gnevin (talk) 11:14, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
- Assuming you actually meant this series of templates, not the infobox (as this is what the other discussion was about) WP:MOSICON actually outlines why these flags are useful (see #4 below). To rebut your points one-by-one
- It does not require knowledge of 160+ flags unless you are viewing them all on the same page (which never happens as AFAIK Wikipedia cannot cope with more than 100 on one page). As far as I am aware, there are never more than three of these on one page, and they are always about related countries or entities. One could argue that it actually teaches readers who are not familiar with flags, as they are made aware of the flags for the entities in question.
- Doesn't seem to be a problem anywhere else on Wikipedia where flagicons are used (a lot of places), so why here?
- This sentence makes no sense
- Simply untrue. The introduction to the guideline states (bold for emphasis) "The use of icons in Wikipedia encyclopedic project content, mainly lists, tables, infoboxes and navboxes can provide useful visual cues"
- Flagicons have been used on these templates since 2006 or 2007 to aid readers and are not causing a problem with regards to clutter etc. I really don't understand why a few editors have such a zealous crusade against them. Number 57 17:39, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
-
- I regularly remove typos and malformed code which have been there for years; being in place for a while is not a reason to keep errors. It's apparent that you don't understand why most of the project isn't as keen on the tiny flags as you are. You could do worse than read the MoS to start you off. --John (talk) 19:57, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
-
- Perhaps I worded it badly, but the point was that Wikipedia is here to provide information. Flags are a form of information.
- You are correct that WP:OSE is not an argument to keep, but that's not relevant to my point. Gnevin claimed the flags were too small to be useful, but this is the the flagicon standard size, a size that has clearly been set as it is deemed to be useful.
- There are at least 150 articles with more than one template on to my knowledge.
- I didn't say they were a list, I pointed out that the MOS (which I have read) says the flags can be useful on navboxes (I highlighted it in bold above if you missed it).
- These are not errors, so I'm not sure why the comparison is being made. Number 57 20:20, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
-
In short;
- We are not asking people to learn 150+ flags. Wikipedia shows users what those flags are, and the title of the box should guide users to the flag's identity in any case.
- The MoS says flags can have uses in many contexts, and as said above, "Wikipedia is here to provide information. Flags are a form of information."
- Having had flags in that position for so long without comment or complaint, I can't help but thinking that we're just getting into faffing around for the sake of it
In shorter: keep the flags
doktorb wordsdeeds 20:40, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
- You are expecting people to recognise a nations flag , there are over 160 nations thus for a recognition argument to be valid people need to learn these flags in order to recognise.You say the title is pixels away , this is true so why are be repeating ourselves ?
- Wiki is not here to teach via backdoor mean , if so we'd have hieroglyphs and semaphore instead of words and letters
- There has been plenty of comment and complaint over the life time of these template Gnevin (talk) 10:07, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
I won't be sad if the flags are gone; they're redundant as the name of the country/state/whatever is already on top of it, plus it wastes an entire row all by itself. If we can find another use for these flags they can be saved. –HTD 20:17, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Help needed
See United States presidential election in Vermont, 1964 (and others in navigational template). See United States presidential election in Maine, 1984 (and others in navigational template). Student7 (talk) 19:05, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
- See what? The obvious thing is that they are incorrectly named (they should be United States presidential election, 1984 (Maine) etc. Number 57 23:17, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
Proposed naming convention (UK Parliament constituencies)
Advertising the proposed Wikipedia:Naming conventions (UK Parliament constituencies) here, as specified in Wikipedia:Article_titles#Proposed_naming_conventions_and_guidelines. PamD 13:53, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
Names of candidates on election pages
Is there a policy or guideline that covers the names of candidates on election pages? Please see Talk:Oxfordshire County Council election, 2013#Full names. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:57, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Opinion poll overkill
A few election articles are getting rather large in size, pretty much entirely due to the opinion poll sections in them. Next Italian general election is an extreme version (>100k) and has 365(!) separate polls on it. There seems to be a small group of editors who constantly add opinion polls to articles. In moderation, I don't think this is a bad thing, but some of them are really looking like overkill (Next Greek legislative election has almost 130 separate polls and Next Portuguese legislative election has over 100). What do others think about this? Do we need to limit the number of polls to make it manageable? Number 57 22:13, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Next Canadian federal election has been splitting the article, when the polls overwhelm the article. 117Avenue (talk) 04:11, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- I think these articles are becoming too large. Polls are not elections. The media wants us to think so in order to "sell time." There is no reason for an encyclopedia to "buy into" this commercial frame of mind. A couple of polls, at most, should do it.
- You think you've got it bad, the US has 50 states, 50 sets of polls, and at least three levels of government. None of the polls agree, yet go on and on and on.
- This is also a great opportunity for paid editors to "pad" articles with polls favoring their candidate or party.
- The article is supposedly about Elections which consist of citizens casting votes, not a group of paid people "polling" other people over the phone to create "excitement" for the politician/party who benefits, or the media, who benefits. Student7 (talk) 20:47, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
- The purpose of discussion here is not to give our views over the desirability of opinion polls. Opinion polls have an obvious relevancy to elections articles. Where space becomes an issue the common practice seems to be to split the poll data off to "Opinion polling for the next X general election" articles like Opinion polling for the next United Kingdom general election. The practice of placing opinion poll in scrolling boxes will break lots of browsers and hides content. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 11:42, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Strange election result in Mali
I've recently uncovered more detailed results from Mali's elections in the 1990s. One oddity is how the National Rally for Democracy won a seat in the July 1997 elections. The party did not receive any votes in the first round (it wasn't formed until 5 days afterwards), yet somehow appears to have won a seat. In this source it states that the seat they won was one of six "MV" seats. I have no idea what this is, so any help would be welcome - thanks! Number 57 20:54, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- Minorité visible (Visible minority)? Int21h (talk) 00:40, 1 May 2014 (UTC) This source says "The National Assembly had 15 members from historically marginalized pastoralist and nomadic ethnic minorities..." so maybe it was 6 but now its 15? Int21h (talk) 00:52, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Looking at the context of that statement, I think that's referring to the actual makeup of the people elected to Parliament, not seats reserved for them. Number 57 07:00, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- I may be misinterpreting you, but isn't the actual makeup of the people elected to Parliament based upon seats reserved for such people? Such that by referring to categories of the latter (reserved membership composition), you may also refer to categories of the former (actual membership composition)? In other words, if one referred to MV in the context of reservations, and another referred to MV in the context of actual members, would it not be plain that they were referring to the same concept because of the intrinsic relationship between reservations and actual membership? Its an intrinsic relationship because reservations determine (not entirely, but partially) actual membership. Int21h (talk) 09:02, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Looking at the context of that statement, I think that's referring to the actual makeup of the people elected to Parliament, not seats reserved for them. Number 57 07:00, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. What I meant was that 15 people who were ethnic minorities were elected to Parliament via the normal process, as would happen in the UK. I think the paper was just highlighting the success or otherwise of minorities (and women) in gaining political representation through the Malian electoral system, which does not have appear to have specific seats reserved for minorities (see current electoral system here and compare to Iran's or Jordan's which note the existence of reserved seats). Number 57 09:13, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Single-member constituencies without primaries?
How is a partisan candidate chosen to be on a general election ballot without the use of primaries? I am particularly interested in English-speaking/common law countries, e.g., the UK, Canada, and Australia. Do the leaders of the political parties choose who runs for their party in each constituency? Int21h (talk) 00:21, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
- It depends on the party involved. In the UK the most common way (for the larger parties) is for the local party group in a constituency to select their own candidate, usually from a shortlist approved by the central party. Occasionally candidates are imposed when there are considered to be problems with the local constituency party. Number 57 08:18, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
Bolding of winners in election infoboxes
Please join the discussion here. Thanks, Number 57 08:18, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Leaflet For Wikiproject Elections and Referendums At Wikimania 2014
Hi all,
My name is Adi Khajuria and I am helping out with Wikimania 2014 in London.
One of our initiatives is to create leaflets to increase the discoverability of various wikimedia projects, and showcase the breadth of activity within wikimedia. Any kind of project can have a physical paper leaflet designed - for free - as a tool to help recruit new contributors. These leaflets will be printed at Wikimania 2014, and the designs can be re-used in the future at other events and locations.
This is particularly aimed at highlighting less discoverable but successful projects, e.g:
• Active Wikiprojects: Wikiproject Medicine, WikiProject Video Games, Wikiproject Film
• Tech projects/Tools, which may be looking for either users or developers.
• Less known major projects: Wikinews, Wikidata, Wikivoyage, etc.
• Wiki Loves Parliaments, Wiki Loves Monuments, Wiki Loves ____
• Wikimedia thematic organisations, Wikiwomen’s Collaborative, The Signpost
For more information or to sign up for one for your project, go to:
Project leaflets
Adikhajuria (talk) 14:25, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
Tagging articles for inclusion in this WikiProject
I've tagged several articles that fall within the scope of this project with our WikiProject talk page banner. This (rather thankless) task has appeared to have been neglected for quite some time; for example, even though many articles relating to voting systems have been tagged, the article on voting itself was not. I'll continue to do this for other election-related articles I come across. I haven't assessed all of the articles I've tagged. Help from anyone in tagging or assessing election-related articles would be greatly appreciated! –Prototime (talk · contribs) 03:12, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Assessing importance/class for articles
Hello, I would like to know who assesses articles related to this WikiProject – is this something we can do ourselves, or does it have to be submitted to a WikiProject member for reassessment? The article Colombian presidential election, 2014 has been upgraded as the election has gone along, and now the result is known it certainly needs upgrading from its current stub-class rating. I would hope it meets the criteria for B-class. Thanks. Richard3120 (talk) 10:03, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
- All volunteer. People who have signed up as Project members. Once you have become a member, there are "techniques" and standards to help you to assess articles. Suggest joining and reassessing the article yourself. Student7 (talk) 14:41, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply, I shall do that. Richard3120 (talk) 15:14, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
United_States_Senate_special_election_in_New_Jersey,_2013#Polling_3
(Cross-listed at the article's talk page.) There are some problems with the numbers, colors, and formatting of this table. Can somebody please fix the problems? Bearian (talk) 19:26, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- I've fixed the problems. It appears to be the work of a couple of IP vandals. Thanks for the heads-up. Tiller54 (talk) 21:25, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
Polling and what makes a candidate a candidate, part ?
I noticed the RFC occurring at Talk:United States Senate election in Virginia, 2014. Since my comments have far more to do with our United States election coverage in general than anything related to that election, I'm posting this here instead. There is an ongoing, years-long issue which has implications far beyond this one article.
The major part of the problem is twofold. First, it's plainly obvious that there are editors who devote themselves to marginalizing coverage of that portion of American politics which falls outside the two-party system. The second one is more specific to elections: a number of editors actively push the POV that filing for an office does not make you a candidate for that office, but making offhand remarks to a friendly reporter or issuing a press release does make you a candidate so long as a corporate media outlet deems it to be a news story, even when no other evidence of candidacy or potential candidacy exists. See Sarah Palin#Possible 2014 Senate campaign for a very good example; since the filing deadline in Alaska was on June 2, this has been shown to be little more than a news story which was apparently trending one day last year amongst the D.C. fanboy crowd, rather than a legitimate happening. The response on that article's talk page was agreeable to that point, but lukewarm to the idea that it's inappropriate coverage due to there being no factual basis for such a candidacy, as opposed to just being an offhand remark made to Sean Hannity.
The end result is that Wikipedia articles on United States elections are being aggressively maintained as POV forks for how the corporate media and pollsters view these elections, IN PLACE OF being a factually accurate representation. In 2014, a large part of maintaining this POV has been due to the activity of one editor, User:Tiller54. I also see various IPs making a similarly large number of edits to the same articles in the same vein, but it's not that important to me whether it's all the same person doing this or not. I previously attempted some resolution at Talk:Alaska gubernatorial election, 2014, which I had to abandon as it proves that "Wikipedia is ruled by people who have time for this shit" is no longer just a random snide remark. Afterwards, I had to wonder whether "original research" was the correct term to use. However, recent developments led me to believe that I was correct in that assumption. Namely, Tiller54 has insisted on repeatedly inserting Bill Walker's name into the infobox, based strictly upon polling data. Take a look at this webpage, if you would. Pay particular attention to "pending signature verification" following Walker's name. That means that as of this writing, Walker isn't even on the ballot, and won't be unless and until his nominating petition is certified. Ten days ago, Walker spent the entire day campaigning in downtown Fairbanks during our annual summer solstice street fair. A large part of this effort was in collecting signatures. Incidentally, even though Walker was here and his running mate, Craig Fleener, was not, far more people were signing Fleener's petition. So much for "Fairbanks Born" being anything other than advertising hype.
The infobox field says "Nominee". In Alaska, there are no nominees until after the primary election, which takes place seven weeks from today, which is why I originally cleared the names from the infobox of Alaska gubernatorial election, 2014 as a massive WP:CRYSTAL violation. Due to Tiller54's subsequent edits, that article's infobox is currently attempting to portray Walker as the "nominee of the Independent Party", whatever that is. Based upon his supporters, "nominee of the RINO Party" would be more accurate. Anyway, to repeat, Walker has filed for the office, but isn't on the ballot as of today. Moreover, there is another non-party candidate who is also out collecting signatures, but his name has been removed from the article due to the fact that he's not running a money campaign and is therefore being ignored by the corporate media and the pollsters. He is not the only candidate who has fallen victim to this practice.
In conclusion, "you get what you pay for" may be the best way to put it. The weight we're giving to candidates is not due to notability or viability, as Tiller54 has repeatedly asserted. Rather, it's due to the money they're raising and spending and the exposure it's buying them, evidently including right here on this ostensibly free, non-commercial website. This is merely parroting the corporate media and pollster agendas, backed by "consensus" shaped only by a few very active editors. In the end, any editors not agreeable to this agenda will simply fail to make positive contributions. I continue to be busy taking photos of candidates, including Bill Walker. I would be foolish to donate those photos simply to bolster this blatant POV, which is why you've seen very few (if any) of them on Commons, even though I continue to upload other photos I've taken. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 20:31, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
- To be honest, there are two issues here. The first is infoboxes, and they cause massive NPOV problems prior to elections as some editors try to limit who can go in them before they know the election results (the debate about UKIP being in the next UK general election article has been rumbling on forever). Either all candidates/parties should go in them, or they should not be used until the results are in (and even then it can be problematic determining the cut-off point).
- The second is polls and lists of candidates/parties. For these I think it's pretty clear that all candidates/parties should be included - I can't see any justification for leaving out anyone running in the election from simple tables. Number 57 21:18, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
- "Talk" and campaign speeches shouldn't go into these articles. Nor "signatures," nor any non-election activity. I suppose we are forced to publish election results no matter how small on official candidates (but not write-ins with less than 1%? of the vote). If the party doesn't hold a primary, there is no reporting at that time. This leaves polls on which I would say under 1% shouldn't be reported. Probably a higher threshold should be used.
- And yes, this is a place for recording data on candidates that don't need the publicity. This is not a place for "minor/unknown" candidates, per se. We may be ultimately forced to report the results, but we are not, nor should be, forced to publicize unknowns. It is up to them to get publicity. This is not WP:SPAM for minor parties.
- We aren't talking articles with the Sarah Palin blurb above. She is already notable and has an article. Assuming she spent time "floating" her candidacy for the Senate, it probably should go into her article with failure noted. But this is a decision for the editors on her biography, not here. We would only be concerned if it fell under "Alaskan Senate Election 2014", where we might not want it, since nothing was actually done. Student7 (talk) 11:54, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Local election notability
A discussion relevant to this WikiProject has been started at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics#Local Election Results (Particularly in Wales). Cheers, Number 57 22:28, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Bot to tag articles for the WikiProject
Does anyone have any objection to me requesting for a bot to add the {{WikiProject Elections and Referendums}} tag to the talk pages of all election and referendum articles? This will ensure that the articles appear on the article alerts feed, which highlights relevant AfDs, RMs, GA nominations etc. There is a long thread at WP:BTR if anyone wants to see some more background. Cheers, Number 57 13:32, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- No objection, sounds sensible. —Nightstallion 13:07, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
- I set up the article alerts page some time back but it does need a boost to get more articles tagged so discussions can be spotted. Timrollpickering (talk) 13:14, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
- Seems sensible to me too. Bondegezou (talk) 13:37, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
- All the other WikiProjects do it; why not this one? Harej (talk) 14:59, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
- Don't see any reason why not. Davewild (talk) 15:47, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
- At Wikipedia:Bot requests, Number 57 described this WikiProject as "very inactive". That's a reason. (It's important to keep in mind that bot tasks along these lines can cause collateral damage, so if no active editor collaboration benefits from the mass tagging, it simply isn't justified.)
- Additionally, it's been noted that the article alerts could be triggered via other, less problematic methods. —David Levy 17:22, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
- Your second statement is rather misleading. You suggested that it might be possible to amend the bot to recognise stuff in other ways. We don't know whether this is possible, or indeed whether the bot owner will actually do it. Number 57 17:57, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
- Firstly, I didn't criticise you for simply linking to the discussion (referring to "some more background", with no acknowledgement that concerns/objections had arisen), so I'm stunned to see you complain that I failed to provide a detailed summary.
- Secondly (in response to your statement that "we don't know whether this is possible"), while I'm not a bot owner, I'm familiar enough with their operation to assure you that it is (as I did on the request page). But I don't expect you to take my word for it. As I noted in the discussion, you dismissed the suggestion without even allowing any bot owners to comment first. Obviously, if they were to indicate that I'm wrong (and such a setup isn't possible) or decline to perform the programming, that would change matters.
- You rejected the idea not because of infeasibility, but because you found the bot request process stressful and felt that it would be easier to "just get the talk pages tagged" than to pursue a different approach. I'm sorry, but a bot run involving 7,424 categories isn't something to be taken lightly. —David Levy 18:48, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
- What? I didn't complain about anything to do with you not providing a detailed summary.
- I rejected the idea because it's standard procedure just to have the articles tagged (as alluded to above by another editor). The incredible sense of frustration was a side issue. Number 57 19:17, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
- What? I didn't complain about anything to do with you not providing a detailed summary.
- You deemed my statement "rather misleading" because I mentioned that alternative methods were discussed at Wikipedia:Bot requests without explicitly noting that some of them have not yet been implemented.
- I rejected the idea because it's standard procedure just to have the articles tagged (as alluded to above by another editor).
- Yes, you mentioned that too. And as I noted, it isn't standard procedure for WikiProjects that are "very inactive" (as you described this one).
- The incredible sense of frustration was a side issue.
- From the same message: "After all the faffing around here, I'd really rather not get involved in a request to change the way the bot operates, as this has done more than enough to sap my morale. Can we just get on with it please?"
- I realize that you perceive my response as "obstruction", but I genuinely seek to assist you in achieving your underlying goal in the most efficient (and least disruptive) manner possible. I don't seek to take your preferred method off the table. I ask only that the alternatives receive their due consideration (including consultation with the available bot owners) before we rush into a massive and potentially problematic bot task. —David Levy 19:48, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
- No objections. Good idea. -Karan Kamath (talk · contribs) 05:33, August 21, 2014 (UTC)
- No objections here. Seems like a good idea SantiLak (talk) 06:25, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
- Having created, edited, and updated many articles in and around this project and referring to it regularly for informational purposes (my minor edits can attest), and supporting any attempt to prove the WikiBureaucrat-Dictators wrong about something, I fully endorse this effort. Also, we should get this project more active while we are at it. I havent edited much in awhile and it might be good to go plow thru some things and see what needs changes, updates, etc.--Metallurgist (talk) 21:09, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
- You may be interested in a couple of subpages I've crearted; this one details where we are with the election/referendum years -(i.e. whether they're complete or not), and this is a start on assessing sets of articles by country. Number 57 23:56, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
- To quote your talk page's welcome message, "please be civil and not rude or insulting."
- I realize that you were notified of the situation via a message alluding to the bureaucratic obstruction of "progress", but we all share the goal of acting in Wikipedia's best interests. You're entitled to disagree with others' concerns, but there's no need for name-calling. —David Levy 02:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
- Having created, edited, and updated many articles in and around this project and referring to it regularly for informational purposes (my minor edits can attest), and supporting any attempt to prove the WikiBureaucrat-Dictators wrong about something, I fully endorse this effort. Also, we should get this project more active while we are at it. I havent edited much in awhile and it might be good to go plow thru some things and see what needs changes, updates, etc.--Metallurgist (talk) 21:09, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
- No objections here. Seems like a good idea SantiLak (talk) 06:25, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
- Your second statement is rather misleading. You suggested that it might be possible to amend the bot to recognise stuff in other ways. We don't know whether this is possible, or indeed whether the bot owner will actually do it. Number 57 17:57, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
- Don't see any reason why not. Davewild (talk) 15:47, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
- All the other WikiProjects do it; why not this one? Harej (talk) 14:59, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
- Seems sensible to me too. Bondegezou (talk) 13:37, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
- I set up the article alerts page some time back but it does need a boost to get more articles tagged so discussions can be spotted. Timrollpickering (talk) 13:14, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
@David Levy, Karan Kamath, Number 57, Nightstallion, Timrollpickering, Bondegezou, Davewild: et al. (in case I forgot to ping someone). The number of pages requested to be tagged is 50,867. After comparison with pages that already have the tag the total number is 45,594 new tags. I still hesitate to start this task because it will increase the number of pages watched by this project by 1000%. Any comments are welcome. -- Magioladitis (talk) 12:06, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- The problem is that the pages do need to be watched - the current figures show that 90% aren't being, so Project members may be missing out on important notifications (the whole reason I started this request was because of an AfD that Project members missed due to a lack of notification). Number 57 09:56, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
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- The problem is that the pages do need to be watched
- And as I've attempted to explain, the solution is to set up a more sensible means of instructing a bot to provide the desired notifications – one that doesn't entail a massive automated tagging spree that needlessly creates inactive talk pages and encourages reliance upon a similarly inactive WikiProject.
- The current setup is based on the presumption that the talk page tagging in question already exists. Manufacturing such tagging specifically to enable notifications turns the logic on its head. ("Use A for B" becomes "facilitate B by creating A".) It's analogous to constructing vacant houses purely for the purpose of receiving mail at the resultant addresses. —David Levy 14:16, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
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- You believe it is a solution, but no-one else has agreed with you.
- Where was the option even discussed?
- How, in your view, would implementing an alternative method of flagging articles for alerts not solve the problem cited above?
- As stated by several people above,
- The ones whose support you rallied via a non-neutral message (in which you implied that "the attitude of the people at WP:BTR" has obstructed "progress"), despite being "aware of WP:CANVASS"?
- there is not deemed to be a problem with tagging the talk pages,
- Problems (and discussions thereof) were brought to your attention.
- as is standard.
- Again, the automated tagging of more than 50,000 talk pages (including those that don't exist yet) is not standard procedure, let alone one routinely carried out on behalf of a "very inactive" WikiProject. You seem to regard it as an automatic entitlement, which has led you to demand its immediate and unconditional implementation (with zero willingness to even consider alternatives). —David Levy 15:34, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
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- David, as I said elsewhere, your opposition to this is well documented. I will not continue wasting my time responding to you, especially as you only seem to be logging into Wikipedia to comment in an attempt to block this proposal, so this will be my final reply to your comments. Number 57 15:43, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
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- David, as I said elsewhere, your opposition to this is well documented.
- If I were replying simply to reiterate my opposition to your request, I would understand your frustration. I've been attempting to initiate discussion of alternative implementations, which you've steadfastly refused to consider.
- I will not continue wasting my time responding to you,
- Indeed, you regard discussion of this matter as a waste of time (and because I've pursued it, you've deemed my participation negative and obstructive). In your view, anything other than commencing the tagging is unacceptable, so you won't even entertain other ideas.
- especially as you only seem to be logging into Wikipedia to comment in an attempt to block this proposal,
- I responded to a ping by once again seeking to engage in discussion of a solution to your WikiProject's problem.
- As I noted at User talk:Magioladitis, I'm busy outside Wikipedia, so the time that I'm currently able to set aside for editing is quite limited. Nonetheless, I've dedicated a significant portion to this topic. I remain baffled as to why you view this as something sinister or untoward.
- so this will be my final reply to your comments.
- And it brings the number of instances in which you addressed my proposal's substance to a grand total of zero. —David Levy 16:18, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
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@David Levy, Karan Kamath, Number 57, Nightstallion, Timrollpickering, Bondegezou, Davewild: I hope this time I pinged correctly. -- Magioladitis (talk) 12:06, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- Plus @Harej, SantiLak, Metallurgist:. Number 57 12:18, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- For anyone who has concerns about the number of new pages this may create, I have listed the talk pages of the 36,142 articles, 1,786 templates, 7,057 categories and 179 other pages this will tag.
- As you can see, the vast majority of article talk pages already exist. For the article list, I took a random sample from the list starting at 0, 1,000, 10,000 and 25,000 and looked at all the links on screen (28-29). From that sample, 129 talk pages already existed (91.5%) and 12 (8.5%) did not. Using this figure, tagging the planned number of articles should only result in around 3,000 new talk pages being created.
- For templates the ratio was 59:25 (70% already existing), and for categories it was 42:42 (only 50%). As you can see by scrolling down the latter list, it has large sets of categories that are tagged and large sets that aren't. If people have reservations about this lot being tagged, I can live with it, but I think the articles are a must. Cheers, Number 57 21:05, 2 September 2014 (UTC)