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Sources cited for the Cham Albanian Population
It came to my attention that the sources provided in the Infobox, titled: "The Cham Issue - Albanian National & Property Claims in Greece" in fact are dubious ones, containing historical errors and inaccuracies both about the history and the events in the region of Epirus/Chameria, as well as about matters concerning Albania and Greece. It claims that the region of Epirus "was Albanian" without data backing this theory, that the Thesprotans were an Illyrian tribe and many more. To me all that sounds like biased and promoting the Albanian nationalism. Also the source in question, does not mention, nor verifies the number 440.000 for Cham Albanians. Can someone help me and enlighten me on what does this source has to do with the number 440.000 in the infobox? I have removed the source from the infobox and I copy-pasted it here just in case: [1] I wasn't able to gain access to the other sources in the Infobox, due to broken links and lack of access to the content, but given this source here, I suspect they too may contain inaccuracies or errors. Can someone help me investigate and verify the sources? --SilentResident (talk) 20:34, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- The correct link is here [[1]]. Definitely the above claims do not meet wp:rs, the author simply recycles a number of declarations by irredentist organisations, without taking care to check any serious bibliography.Alexikoua (talk) 21:07, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
- After checking the sources more thoroughly, I found that the information and data provided in the article do not meet Wikipedia's quality standards, and, I found that the historical events about Chameria and the Cham Albanians are presented in an unfair, one-sided and biased manner which does not reflect the historical reality in the region. We have clearly a case of Wikipedia: Neutral point of view violation here. In addition to the POV issues like the claims that Epirus and the Thesprotans were non-Greek/Illyrian/Albanian in ancient times (which I mentioned in my previous comment above), the article seems to have reliability issues: it provides bloated population figures for the Cham Albanian population in the region, without citing any reliable sources and by ignoring completely any of the population censuses conducted by the Ottoman Empire and the Greek state, under which Chameria came in control, at different times in history. The sources and the article also claim that there was still a large Muslim Cham Albanian presence in the region of Epirus even after the Population exchange between Greece and Turkey happened, which is not true, and they do not take in account the demographic changes that occured in Epirus, from the Ottoman era to the period of World War II and the modern days. Furthermore, the sources cited in this article do not provide us details about how the Cham population figures have been acquired, or measured. Given the lack of proofs and facts, it is evident that the sources and the information in the article are of dubious and of unreliable origin, and their purpose is no other than to recycle the political opinions promoted by the irredendist and nationalist circles from within Albania, which exaggerate the historical events as part of their nationalistic propaganda which often is related to the irredendist concept of "Greater Albania". These are in no way appropriate for an encyclopedia such as the Wikipedia, because they are not neutral, lack any serious historical research and objective bibliography. If POV and lack of reliability were not enough of a problem already, these dubious sources distinguish the good and the bad people based on their nationality - the Albanians are portrayed as good and innocent victims who suffered from unjust campaigns of ethnic cleansing, genocide and assimulation conducted by the bad Greeks, which is very unencyclopedic by all means. The events are presented in an way that give the readers a false perception of what really happened in the region, by telling them that there was a systematic Genocide (if not Genocide, at least Ethnic cleansing) of the Cham Albanians by the bad Greeks(!) which resulted in thousands(!) of Cham Albanian deaths(!). But, again, like I said above, these claims, including the thousands of missing (or dead) Cham Albanians, are presented to us without any evidence/proof; and are backed by data/numbers that lack any reliable sources or explanation of how they were acquired. Given that the Wikipedia's role is not to take sides, nor to adopt biased political views, but to present a neutral point of view and accurate information from verified sources, to me it is clear that this article needs a serious cleanup to meet the Wikipedia's quality standards. --SilentResident (talk) 15:36, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- Due to the NPOV issues detected and listed above, the absence of reliable and neutral sources and the lack of original research, I tagged the article for disputed neutrality and the need for a cleanup. --SilentResident (talk) 16:00, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- After checking the sources more thoroughly, I found that the information and data provided in the article do not meet Wikipedia's quality standards, and, I found that the historical events about Chameria and the Cham Albanians are presented in an unfair, one-sided and biased manner which does not reflect the historical reality in the region. We have clearly a case of Wikipedia: Neutral point of view violation here. In addition to the POV issues like the claims that Epirus and the Thesprotans were non-Greek/Illyrian/Albanian in ancient times (which I mentioned in my previous comment above), the article seems to have reliability issues: it provides bloated population figures for the Cham Albanian population in the region, without citing any reliable sources and by ignoring completely any of the population censuses conducted by the Ottoman Empire and the Greek state, under which Chameria came in control, at different times in history. The sources and the article also claim that there was still a large Muslim Cham Albanian presence in the region of Epirus even after the Population exchange between Greece and Turkey happened, which is not true, and they do not take in account the demographic changes that occured in Epirus, from the Ottoman era to the period of World War II and the modern days. Furthermore, the sources cited in this article do not provide us details about how the Cham population figures have been acquired, or measured. Given the lack of proofs and facts, it is evident that the sources and the information in the article are of dubious and of unreliable origin, and their purpose is no other than to recycle the political opinions promoted by the irredendist and nationalist circles from within Albania, which exaggerate the historical events as part of their nationalistic propaganda which often is related to the irredendist concept of "Greater Albania". These are in no way appropriate for an encyclopedia such as the Wikipedia, because they are not neutral, lack any serious historical research and objective bibliography. If POV and lack of reliability were not enough of a problem already, these dubious sources distinguish the good and the bad people based on their nationality - the Albanians are portrayed as good and innocent victims who suffered from unjust campaigns of ethnic cleansing, genocide and assimulation conducted by the bad Greeks, which is very unencyclopedic by all means. The events are presented in an way that give the readers a false perception of what really happened in the region, by telling them that there was a systematic Genocide (if not Genocide, at least Ethnic cleansing) of the Cham Albanians by the bad Greeks(!) which resulted in thousands(!) of Cham Albanian deaths(!). But, again, like I said above, these claims, including the thousands of missing (or dead) Cham Albanians, are presented to us without any evidence/proof; and are backed by data/numbers that lack any reliable sources or explanation of how they were acquired. Given that the Wikipedia's role is not to take sides, nor to adopt biased political views, but to present a neutral point of view and accurate information from verified sources, to me it is clear that this article needs a serious cleanup to meet the Wikipedia's quality standards. --SilentResident (talk) 15:36, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
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- There are a number of issues with your comments you have made that are problematic. The article in no way says that there are Muslim Chams in Greek Epirus expect for a small number as outlined by Greek scholars and cited. Your view regarding "bloated numbers" of Chams are the ones given in Greek scholarship that offers numbers given by various positions of the day (interwar period and of course they differ) and are cited as such by Greek scholarship. Your claim also about "irredendist concept of "Greater Albania" is not mentioned in any of the article and nor have you referenced in here within the talk as to where such a thing is. Your comment "These are in no way appropriate for an encyclopedia such as the Wikipedia, because they are not neutral, lack any serious historical research and objective bibliography." while you do not point to a specific sentence or peer reviewed source is most troubling as to the claims made by you and can be considered POV pushing at this point in time. You say "The events are presented in an way that give the readers a false perception of what really happened in the region, by telling them that there was a systematic Genocide (if not Genocide, at least Ethnic cleansing) of the Cham Albanians by the bad Greeks(!) which resulted in thousands(!) of Cham Albanian deaths(!)." The non-nationalsitic Greek scholarship of today like that of Dr. Lambros Baltsiotis who has gone through the Greek government archive and done an extensive appraisal of Greek sources provides extensive material showing what was occurring at the time and is cited as such. Unless you can disprove what he has said you are once again at this point in time as specific exmaples are not referred to as POV pushing. Note that Albanian scholarship is not used, but the Greek within the article ! As for your comment "Given that the Wikipedia's role is not to take sides, nor to adopt biased political views, but to present a neutral point of view and accurate information from verified sources, to me it is clear that this article needs a serious cleanup to meet the Wikipedia's quality standards." i am very concerned as you have not pointed to any specific sentence or area, and instead given generic commentary based on personal views. If you cannot be more specific then that than your placing of the neutrality tag above cannot be interpreted as good faith. Please point out specific issues with the article, like i had done in the past and please present peer reviewed material that calls into question the article at the moment. Thank you Resnjari (talk) 05:03, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Resnjari, let me bring you just an example of the article's writing problems: one of the paragraphs claim that "in the aftermath of World War II the entire Muslim Cham population had to flee to Albania." which is not correct because a part of that population was affected by the Population Exchange happening some years earlier between Greece and Turkey.
- Resnjari, like I said above, the sources present the events in an way that give the readers a false perception of what really happened in the region, by claiming that there was a systematic Genocide (if not Genocide, at least Ethnic cleansing) of the Cham Albanians by the bad Greeks(!) which resulted in thousands(!) of Cham Albanian deaths(!), and I bring you an example of what the sources write and give this false perception, by copy-pasting the cited sources here: "… and as history has recorded, Greece has committed genocide against Albanians of the Muslim faith". The Turkish authorities have urged the Greek government to participate in an international conference on the Cham dispute at which the Albanian government would also be present." plus, the following: "in the period from June 1944 to March 1945, during which an estimated 5,000 men, women and children were killed. The rest of Chameria's Albanian Muslim population fled over the border to Albania where they have lived in exile ever since. The Chams are demanding the recognition of about 4,000 Chams who disappeared as a result of those conflicts, and the property rights of about 150,000 others." at another section of the document by Miranda Vickers. As you see, the article is citing sources which give this perception of the events that happened in the region, Resnjari and that is a problem, as it does not take a neutral point of view and rather adopts one-sided biased point of view about the events in Chameria and this cannot be tolerated.
- Really when there have been thousands of Cham Albanian gone missing or dead and we haven't noticed it? Were the Greeks really such, genocidal as the sources are trying to portray them as, against the Cham Albanians? This comes in contrast with the established and verified figures of only 200-300 deaths that really happened in the time of the Expulsion of Cham Albanians, which is far bellow the number of 9.000 (5.000 killed + 4.000 missing) claimed by Vickers. And to not forget to mention that the population figures in the Vickers sources in question, as well as in the current article, claim the existence of 205.000 and 440.000 Cham Albanians respectively, which contradict the Ottoman, the Greek and the Italian population censuses that were conducted in Epirus by the authorities of the respective states that placed the total Cham population figures to merely 54.000 Cham Albanians (maximum). The 54.000 is far bellow the 205.000 or even the 440.000. Can you please enlighten me why and how Miranda Vickers's figures give bloated population numbers by more than three times the real figures and in spite of reliable documents? Do you realize that all these dubious information about the population numbers are present in both the info-box at the beginning of the article, as well as in sections within the article? It is clear that the article is having problems with its neutrality because it presents sources that adopt nationalistic views by some political circles in Albania, and exaggerates the events by giving us bloated population numbers of the Cham Albanian population, and Vickers provided all these figures without a clear explanation of how they (the numbers) were acquired in the first place.
- Resnjari, as I said above, and I repeat here: in the article there are dubious sources and data cited and presented which affect the article's neutrality. You can access these sources if you want, and check them to see the inaccuracies for yourself. To make things easier for you, Alexikoua has provided here to us a direct download of some of the Miranda Vickers's sources for everyone to read. The article's other sources, again by Vickers, need to be re-viewed as well and removed from the article if they do not meet Wikipedia's rules for reliable sources. The article, and especially the Demographics section really needs some cleanup to meet the Wikipedia's quality standards. --SilentResident (talk) 07:13, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Note: I don't know if this helps, but it relates to the problems I mentioned above; it came now to my notice that the article was once nominated for Good Article status, some years ago, but eventually was de-listed, due to problems similar to the ones I have mentioned/listed in my previous comments: it lacked (and still lacks from what we see, especially reliable ones) citations for contentious material and/or the material was and still likely to be challenged. For more info about this, please check: [2] --SilentResident (talk) 05:29, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- There are a number of issues with your comments you have made that are problematic. The article in no way says that there are Muslim Chams in Greek Epirus expect for a small number as outlined by Greek scholars and cited. Your view regarding "bloated numbers" of Chams are the ones given in Greek scholarship that offers numbers given by various positions of the day (interwar period and of course they differ) and are cited as such by Greek scholarship. Your claim also about "irredendist concept of "Greater Albania" is not mentioned in any of the article and nor have you referenced in here within the talk as to where such a thing is. Your comment "These are in no way appropriate for an encyclopedia such as the Wikipedia, because they are not neutral, lack any serious historical research and objective bibliography." while you do not point to a specific sentence or peer reviewed source is most troubling as to the claims made by you and can be considered POV pushing at this point in time. You say "The events are presented in an way that give the readers a false perception of what really happened in the region, by telling them that there was a systematic Genocide (if not Genocide, at least Ethnic cleansing) of the Cham Albanians by the bad Greeks(!) which resulted in thousands(!) of Cham Albanian deaths(!)." The non-nationalsitic Greek scholarship of today like that of Dr. Lambros Baltsiotis who has gone through the Greek government archive and done an extensive appraisal of Greek sources provides extensive material showing what was occurring at the time and is cited as such. Unless you can disprove what he has said you are once again at this point in time as specific exmaples are not referred to as POV pushing. Note that Albanian scholarship is not used, but the Greek within the article ! As for your comment "Given that the Wikipedia's role is not to take sides, nor to adopt biased political views, but to present a neutral point of view and accurate information from verified sources, to me it is clear that this article needs a serious cleanup to meet the Wikipedia's quality standards." i am very concerned as you have not pointed to any specific sentence or area, and instead given generic commentary based on personal views. If you cannot be more specific then that than your placing of the neutrality tag above cannot be interpreted as good faith. Please point out specific issues with the article, like i had done in the past and please present peer reviewed material that calls into question the article at the moment. Thank you Resnjari (talk) 05:03, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
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- First off I am glad you have outlined the issues. Regarding the Good status article thing, it was removed way back because it lacked good sources and the history section was atrocious and POV pushing. That matter dates to way back before my interaction with the article. Me and Alexikoua in recent times after much hard work (as can be read by anyone in the talk pages –archive bit- resolved the history section and much of the rest with peer reviewed material). So I got a little concerned with your comments at first which I thought were in relation to the whole article. The bits you refer too were not touched by either one of us. They mainly relate to post-war numbers (not interwar or prior) and of course Miranda Vickers and a sentence in lede that that needs to be brought into line with the history section that was fixed through peer reviewed material.
- Anyway the numbers are a complicated matter. If one was to take the Cham population as a whole (ethno-dialect group) but relating wholly to the Muslim population the large figure comes out. Usually the big figure encompasses (those indigenous to the Konispol area, Albanian side) plus those who went to Albania from Greece during the interwar period, also those who went away during the population exchange and plus those that fled during the Balkan wars to Albania and Turkey and those who fled and also those who migrated in the 19th century to what is now Turkey for economic/military service reasons. The total large number includes the descendant population as the Muslim Chams did have large families. This matters I have said here need to be outlined in the article (Tim Judah gives a summary of this process ). Enver in Albania encouraged people of all religions and ethnicities to have large families and is documented in scholarship. Turkey by default has had large population growth and the number of Chams is difficult to ascertain. All one can say with regards to Turkey is like the larger Albanian population, it’s sizable (the Berisha source is used for Turkey).
- Regarding the lede sentence "in the aftermath of World War II the entire Muslim Cham population had to flee to Albania."
- This one is easy and all that needs to be added for clarification after the words Muslim Cham population is (its wordy but needed): that remained in Greece after the population exchanges and lived there throughout the interwar period
- About numbers in the article, numbers used by Vickers are given as “according to Vickers” or “pro-Albanian author” and also “Cham organizations” give so and so number. These are given as such in the article due to the person outlining them. A few areas these can be amended and replaced by non Vickers numbers when sources are located. Give me a bit of time. I am going to have to go through some books over the coming week. Vickers has on the whole been used for the post war situation of the Cham community however and in relation to their activities. Regarding that Vickers can be cited there. For example in the Princess Argjiro article, one of the sources discussing the legend regarding Greeks talks about “Northern Epirus” being a “inseparable” part of Greece. Now that source can be removed because it says that though it stays in the end with the provisio that that bit is not mentioned in the inline citation or in the article itself. It only focuses on the content contained within that is not controversial. So for post war activities of the community Vickers can be used with caution and will need to be properly analysed after bits to do with numbers are dealt with. It may be that Vickers might be replaced completely. I will look through the sources though to find replacements where needed in relation to her. Also I encourage you to find good sources as well since you brought up the matter. As for Alexikoua's placement of links, i have fixed on the main page both formally dead links to Vickers Cham articles, a while back. Both can be accessed now.Resnjari (talk) 07:01, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- I am very glad and satisfied with your (very constructive) response on this matter and I am very happy to see every day that the people are so dedicated in working to improve the Balkan-related articles where possible despite their highly politicized background. Yes sure, take your time my friend, and I too will see what I can do in finding and providing sources from my part too, and for that I too will need a bit of a time, as I don't want to rush it out and to provide sources I haven't read/checked first. Thank you. --SilentResident (talk) 08:10, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- Glad were both on the same page and i agree. Yes the post war stuff (really mainly post 1992 stuff) is in need of some attention. I was going through the history page of this article, Vickers was used due to the limitations of previous editors getting sources years ago. Much stuff has been published since from 4 or 5 years back when edits where made. There is a book by Pettifer and Vickers talking about post 2000 Albanian environment (The Albanian question book) which will be better suited as Pettifer also co wrote with her for the Cham association activities without the issues you have outlined. At uni, i'll get the books soon and have a read, not in the thinking mode about Chams at the moment. My thesis project for the next few days is my main concern. Anyway next week then my friend. Always of assistance to make things for the better. Best regards.Resnjari (talk) 08:29, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Resnjari: Can you point where exactly in Princess Argjiro article, one of the sources discussing the legend regarding Greeks talks about “Northern Epirus being a inseparable part of Greece"? As I see you never raised such an issue in the correspondent talkpage.Alexikoua (talk) 21:29, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- Glad were both on the same page and i agree. Yes the post war stuff (really mainly post 1992 stuff) is in need of some attention. I was going through the history page of this article, Vickers was used due to the limitations of previous editors getting sources years ago. Much stuff has been published since from 4 or 5 years back when edits where made. There is a book by Pettifer and Vickers talking about post 2000 Albanian environment (The Albanian question book) which will be better suited as Pettifer also co wrote with her for the Cham association activities without the issues you have outlined. At uni, i'll get the books soon and have a read, not in the thinking mode about Chams at the moment. My thesis project for the next few days is my main concern. Anyway next week then my friend. Always of assistance to make things for the better. Best regards.Resnjari (talk) 08:29, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- I didn't, but other editors did raise the matter in the talkpage of that article, even if they became banned due to other activities much later. Regarding myself I am not concerned about content being in an article as long as controversial material contained within a source is not cited in the article for something that is contested or topically charged - if parts of the source, though not the whole is found to have issues. Nonetheless it deserves much scrutiny and in depth discussioon before that determination can be made. With Vickers, the two Cham articles will be discussed regarding most areas were cited and as i have said its merits for this that or the other as said in my above comments will be discussed. Anyway its for next week as Silent and i will have some peer reviewed material to go over and talk about and others too. Until then, that's all on my part for now. Best.Resnjari (talk) 13:28, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
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- To make things clear & for future reference: in Princess Argjiro article, one of the sources discussing the legend regarding Greeks does not talk about “Northern Epirus being a inseparable part of Greece". Academic material is the best option to be used per wp:HISTRS. If you have a specific objection you are welcome to address the issues in the relevant page.Alexikoua (talk) 15:39, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
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- I am very glad and satisfied with your (very constructive) response on this matter and I am very happy to see every day that the people are so dedicated in working to improve the Balkan-related articles where possible despite their highly politicized background. Yes sure, take your time my friend, and I too will see what I can do in finding and providing sources from my part too, and for that I too will need a bit of a time, as I don't want to rush it out and to provide sources I haven't read/checked first. Thank you. --SilentResident (talk) 08:10, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- Ok, Thank you for that. I will hold you to that comment there for future reference when we go back to editing the Northern Epirus article not to far from now as i have much non-Albanian peer reviewed sources that line up with that policy you cite.Resnjari (talk) 15:58, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
External links modified
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- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100617224752/http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_2/AH1946.html to http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_2/AH1946.html
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081203160539/http://www.chameriaassociation.org/enmis.html to http://www.chameriaassociation.org/enmis.html
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100617224752/http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_2/AH1946.html to http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_2/AH1946.html
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- ^ Vickers, Miranda. "The Cham Issue - Albanian National & Property Claims in Greece". Defence Academy of the United Kingdom.