Time and Date: 10:17 28 April 2014 NZST |
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- 31 Dec 2011 to 31 August 2013 and 1 Sep 2013 to 31 December 2013
Move of Māori All Blacks to Maori All Blacks
This moved was performed as an uncontroversial move request (see [1]) -- can someone with a better knowledge of the Māori language tell me whether this is in fact the correct thing to have done? (pinging @Gadfium, Avenue, Kahuroa: who may be able to help) -- Shudde talk 02:06, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think this was an uncontroversial move, but it isn't an unreasonable one. allblacks.com, Stuff, NZ Herald and TVNZ all use the name without a macron (but I haven't checked to see if they are consistent). Te Ara does use the macron.
- The article was originally at "New Zealand Maori" and covered both the rugby union and rugby league teams. Amacron was added to the article for the team name in April 2006, and it was moved to New Zealand Māori rugby league team the following month, with New Zealand Māori rugby union team created as a split. See the rugby league article for the early history.-gadfium 04:15, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- @Hippo43:-gadfium 04:36, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- I just moved it because I noticed it isn't the spelling used by the NZRU, whose team it is. In their article announcing the team being renamed, it was spelt this way, so it seemed clear to me. Apologies if it is controversial to anyone, but if it hadn't involved a redirect, I would have just moved it myself, as it seemed really straightforward. I dug around the NZRU site and couldn't find any examples with a macron. I also couldn't find examples of the old names being spelt with a macron, on old match programmes etc. Happy to be corrected if I've got this wrong somehow. --hippo43 (talk) 15:38, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
- @Hippo43: -- Hey, thanks for replying. I had no doubt that it was a good faith move request, but I don't think the decision is in fact straightforward. I've done a little reading, and I it seems that the macron isn't supported by all publishing systems -- this may bias any sample of it's use at news sites etc. I'm sure you were unaware that the NZRU do in fact use the macron (although not universally, as you know). The press kit they released for the Māori All Blacks most recent tour (to North American in late-2013) uses the macron in nearly all cases (see pdf here -- this kit has some really useful information if anyone is looking for a source for the article btw). My conclusion is that there isn't any "official" preference for the macron or not, however it does look like using it is preferred where possible by the Māori Language Commission. I completely understand why you made the move request, but am now thinking it was a mistake. -- Shudde talk 08:43, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about that. The press kit is interesting, but from what I've been able to find, the NZRU overwhelmingly don't use the macron. We can't infer that they would use it if their publishing systems were different somehow or conclude that there isn't any official preference. Their logo doesn't have a macron, when it easily could be included. If the NZRU spell it 'Maori All Blacks', then that's the correct name, no?
- On the question of the Māori Language Commission, their preference does not override policy here - we use what reliable sources use (in this case, the body whose team it is). Second, their statement on the use of macrons refers to the Maori language, not English! In the English language Wikipedia, their preference is irrelevant. The word 'Maori' has become an English word and most often does not have a macron. I don't have an opinion either way about how it should be written. If the NZRU choose to change their spelling to include a macron, then I would support changing the article name back. --hippo43 (talk) 19:28, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
- @Hippo43: -- Hey, thanks for replying. I had no doubt that it was a good faith move request, but I don't think the decision is in fact straightforward. I've done a little reading, and I it seems that the macron isn't supported by all publishing systems -- this may bias any sample of it's use at news sites etc. I'm sure you were unaware that the NZRU do in fact use the macron (although not universally, as you know). The press kit they released for the Māori All Blacks most recent tour (to North American in late-2013) uses the macron in nearly all cases (see pdf here -- this kit has some really useful information if anyone is looking for a source for the article btw). My conclusion is that there isn't any "official" preference for the macron or not, however it does look like using it is preferred where possible by the Māori Language Commission. I completely understand why you made the move request, but am now thinking it was a mistake. -- Shudde talk 08:43, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
- I just moved it because I noticed it isn't the spelling used by the NZRU, whose team it is. In their article announcing the team being renamed, it was spelt this way, so it seemed clear to me. Apologies if it is controversial to anyone, but if it hadn't involved a redirect, I would have just moved it myself, as it seemed really straightforward. I dug around the NZRU site and couldn't find any examples with a macron. I also couldn't find examples of the old names being spelt with a macron, on old match programmes etc. Happy to be corrected if I've got this wrong somehow. --hippo43 (talk) 15:38, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Your argument seems to have changed. Your original reasoning was "correct spelling per official sources - NZRU etc" ([2] you never provided a source or evidence). Then above you said "I dug around the NZRU site and couldn't find any examples with a macron". So you've used anecdotal evidence, the problem with this is that it could easily be wrong. I've found a very recent publication by the NZRU that uses the term "Māori All Blacks" (with the macron) 39 times ("Maori All Blacks" was used twice). Then you say "We can't infer that they would use it if their publishing systems were different somehow or conclude that there isn't any official preference". Are saying that the NZRU have an official preference for not using the macron, yet used it 39 times in a publication they provided to the press less than 6 months ago? Did you have a look at the pdf? The move was controversial, and no consensus was either sought or established. The move should be reverted and then consensus should be established before deciding to remove the macron. -- Shudde talk 09:11, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- I think you're making a controversy out of nothing. I haven't tried to make an argument, I've just explained why it is pretty obvious the NZRU's name for the team is spelt without a macron. I didn't seek consensus or list a bunch of sources because it's not really controversial.
- You've referred to just one press release, written by who? The chief executive of the union or one copywriter, with a preference for macrons, in their media department? We don't know. If you look closely, the team logo appears numerous times (many more than 2) in the same document, without a macron. I think we can presume that the union would get the spelling right on their logo. Also, the press release contains several errors - the team was not called the Maori All Blacks in 2010, or 1900, as it asserts - so I'm not sure how much weight it carries. This source, from around the same time, doesn't use macrons at all as far as I can tell, so what should we infer from it?
- However, the main reason this is not actually controversial is that the NZRU explicitly stated that the name is 'Maori All Blacks' in this source, directly addressing the issue of the team's name, not just mentioning it in passing. This is obviously a statement of an 'official' spelling. It's not really credible that they announced the new name on their website and got the spelling wrong, and that they continue to get it wrong all over their website, and that they continue to get it wrong on the logo that is on their jersey and plastered all over every event they are involved in. --hippo43 (talk) 12:49, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
- I've put a formal move request on the article's talk page. Schwede66 17:25, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
A potential COI or impersonator perhaps,
Shanejonesmp (talk · contribs) has been created. Kiwi editors may be better to deal with issues (if there are any) arising. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 09:02, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
- More likely an impersonator, I would expect an MP to be sufficiently educated to be able to add an edit summary and I doubt he would add his new partner as "spouse" if they weren't married. I can find nothing to confirm that Jones is divorced so assume he is still married. Best to take this to Talk:Shane Jones. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 09:30, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Kingston Flyer
Kingston Flyer suggests that the train is currently running, but I was in Kingston a week ago and the trains look as though they have been laid up for at least a year - covered in cobwebs, and one locomotive has the front fan of its boiler chamber off (and badly rusting). The restaurant at the station is also closed down. Unfortunately I don't have time, so is someone willing to check for news reports and update the article? dramatic (talk) 22:17, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Updated article to the position as at December 2013. Not running and on the market for sale. NealeFamily (talk) 23:30, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
New Zealand regions RM discussion
I have started a formal WP:RM discussion about the regions issue. The discussion is here. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:52, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Manawatu-Wanganui Region RM discussion
The discussion mentioned above for all of the NZ regions was a bit of a bust, and it's clear from the comments there that if there is to be any change they will probably have to be approached individually. I've started a discussion regarding Manawatu-Wanganui Region here; all input/views are welcome. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:29, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Otago Region RM discussion
The M-W discussion above resulted in the page being moved. Next up: Otago Region. All inputs and views are welcome. Good Ol’factory (talk) 07:19, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Waikato Region RM discussion
One in a continuing series of RM discussions for NZ regions: Talk:Waikato Region. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:24, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
- The suggested move to Waikato is much more problematic than the previous two above, so do discuss. Nurg (talk) 05:09, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Another region RM discussion
We're now on to discussing renames for the regions of Auckland, Bay of Plenty, Gisborne, Taranaki, and Wellington. Discussion is a group one, and is here. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:55, 23 April 2014 (UTC)