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Contents
- 1 Torlakian dialects
- 2 Formal mediation has been requested
- 3 Population inflation
- 4 Comanche
- 5 Useful study
- 6 Check your
- 7 Request for mediation rejected
- 8 ANI discussion
- 9 Arbitration request
- 10 Arbitration request
- 11 IE
- 12 Middle Persian
- 13 Lithuanian language
- 14 Bosnian language
- 15 Silesian language
Torlakian dialects
Hi Taivo. You can find my most recent proposal to solve the problem here. Feel free to comment on it. Best regards.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 19:35, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
Now I see your point, but it's simply impossible to compare languages and dialects. If there is no existing article about the dialects of Serbo-Croatian, then feel free to create one instead of making a non-sense comparison. Best.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 21:40, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
- There is not an article on dialects of Serbo-Croatian. There are articles on dialects of Macedonian and Bulgarian. If you want to create an article on dialects of Serbo-Croatian, then create one yourself. I am simply working with the articles that exist at this time. But because there are three different articles, then you need to build consensuses on three different articles. --Taivo (talk) 21:52, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
- To compare languages and dialects is like to compare apples and oranges. If you're knowledgeable enough, you should surely know how to distinguish the one from the other. And please refrain from being indolent and ignorant about this issue. Leaving comments that you're "simply working with the articles that exist at this time" does not assume good faith and will not solve the problem. I need someone who will collaborate on my most recent proposal. If you don't like to do it, then I'll have to change it myself. Best regards.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:04, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
- Let's hear it, how do you distinguish the two? — Lfdder (talk) 00:47, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
- The best linguists in the world can't reliably or consistently distinguish languages from dialects. And, Kiril, you are confusing Wikipedia article titles with reality. Perhaps you should walk away from your computer once in a while. Where we place the information about Torlakian doesn't make it a language or a dialect, it is simply placing it in the right Wikipedia article. It's got nothing to do with whether Torlakian is actually a dialect or a language in the real world. --Taivo (talk) 03:09, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
- And, Kiril, you clearly don't understand the Wikipedia process of WP:BRD. Read it before you edit again. It means that if you propose a change and someone (anyone) reverts you, you do not keep trying to push the edit in the article and demand that people justify their revert. It means that if you are reverted, you have to justify the change on the Talk Page and build a consensus for the change before you edit the article again. You have the process backwards. "I need someone who will collaborate on my most recent proposal" is simply more evidence that you don't understand WP:CONSENSUS and WP:BRD. Just because you have an idea, doesn't mean that you get to implement it without building a consensus first. You don't seem to understand WP:AGF either. It also doesn't mean that if you have an idea you can implement it over the objections of other editors. If you persist in your stubbornness, there are editors who might very well report you for disruptive editing. --Taivo (talk) 03:14, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
- The best linguists in the world can't reliably or consistently distinguish languages from dialects. And, Kiril, you are confusing Wikipedia article titles with reality. Perhaps you should walk away from your computer once in a while. Where we place the information about Torlakian doesn't make it a language or a dialect, it is simply placing it in the right Wikipedia article. It's got nothing to do with whether Torlakian is actually a dialect or a language in the real world. --Taivo (talk) 03:09, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
- Let's hear it, how do you distinguish the two? — Lfdder (talk) 00:47, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
- To compare languages and dialects is like to compare apples and oranges. If you're knowledgeable enough, you should surely know how to distinguish the one from the other. And please refrain from being indolent and ignorant about this issue. Leaving comments that you're "simply working with the articles that exist at this time" does not assume good faith and will not solve the problem. I need someone who will collaborate on my most recent proposal. If you don't like to do it, then I'll have to change it myself. Best regards.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:04, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
Uhm, Taivo, you are aware you just broke 3RR too? You might want to be careful, as it's now listed at WP:AN3. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:56, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Your sneaky game against me and the block only gave me inspiration to meet your ignorant behaviour that you're "simply working with the articles that exist at this time" and thus create the article on Dialects of Serbo-Croatian. You're welcome to come back and discuss it on the talk page on Serbo-Croatian once again. Best regards.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 01:35, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
- Read WP:NPA. And perhaps you didn't notice that it wasn't me who reported you. Indeed, I warned you that someone else might. But you ignored me and all my warnings about WP:BRD. Apparently you have learned nothing new. --Taivo (talk) 03:28, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
- This is not a personal attack and sorry if you understood it as such. I know that you didn't report me and that's another business with that user, but you sent him regards on his talk page which is far from being a fair and tollerant behaviour if you're thankful for blocking other users. My intent once again for a dozenth time is not to illustrate any point, but to answer the requests that I received from readers who were complaining that some articles on Wikipedia contain disputed facts. When I came here to do it, I was blocked. That's all. So, please come back on the talk page to discuss the validity of adding link to the newly generated article Dialects of Serbo-Croatian instead all of these dialects as it's the case with the articles on Macedonian and Bulgarian. You mentioned yourself that you're working on the existing article and now there is such an article. Best regards.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:58, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
- You were blocked because you refused to learn or to follow long-established rules of how to get things done. You were blocked because you ignored the warnings of others and proceeded to do what you wanted to do without working to build any WP:CONSENSUS. If you follow that path again, you will be blocked again for a longer period of time. And "sneaky game", "ignorant behavior" are indeed personal attacks. If you don't think they are personal attacks, then perhaps you need to reconsider your participation in the English Wikipedia. --Taivo (talk) 10:48, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry if you got it wrong, but personal attack for me as well is to see that someone is content with my block and is even thankful in public about it. But our business here is not to compare our egos and to collaborate on improving content's quality. You still didn't answer on my call to consider the inclusion of the article I've recently created. Best. --Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:23, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
- You were blocked because you refused to learn or to follow long-established rules of how to get things done. You were blocked because you ignored the warnings of others and proceeded to do what you wanted to do without working to build any WP:CONSENSUS. If you follow that path again, you will be blocked again for a longer period of time. And "sneaky game", "ignorant behavior" are indeed personal attacks. If you don't think they are personal attacks, then perhaps you need to reconsider your participation in the English Wikipedia. --Taivo (talk) 10:48, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
- This is not a personal attack and sorry if you understood it as such. I know that you didn't report me and that's another business with that user, but you sent him regards on his talk page which is far from being a fair and tollerant behaviour if you're thankful for blocking other users. My intent once again for a dozenth time is not to illustrate any point, but to answer the requests that I received from readers who were complaining that some articles on Wikipedia contain disputed facts. When I came here to do it, I was blocked. That's all. So, please come back on the talk page to discuss the validity of adding link to the newly generated article Dialects of Serbo-Croatian instead all of these dialects as it's the case with the articles on Macedonian and Bulgarian. You mentioned yourself that you're working on the existing article and now there is such an article. Best regards.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:58, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
Formal mediation has been requested
Population inflation
... this time at Polish language, in case you're interested. — kwami (talk) 13:38, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Comanche
Hi, I've just reverted your recent edit to Comanche as changing (White Eagle) to (Coyote's Vagina) seemed rather odd. But then I took a look at your user page ... so, perhaps you could enlighten me about the name and maybe redo the edit with an explanation and/or supporting reference. Thanks, Vsmith (talk) 13:41, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
- Ach ... never mind, I just took a look at Isa-tai and restored your edit. Too quick on the trigger there - sorry 'bout that. Vsmith (talk) 13:51, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Useful study
Hi Taivo, I posted the following at Ivan Štambuk's page, but I think that you, kwami and JorisvS could find this useful too when countering Balkan nationalists defecating on the talk pages and articles involving BCS.
--- "Hi Ivan, I was directed to a paper describing an experiment done a few years ago by an American linguist, John Bailyn, concerning Croatian and Serbian. He basically had Croats translate several Serbian texts and found that the results support the single-language hypothesis on analysis of grammar alone because of the lack of modification done to the texts. No doubt this is another blow to the nationalist braintrust on Croatian Wikipedia that continually resorts to ad hominems and non-linguistic argumentation to preserve the image of Croatian and Serbian being different languages like Dutch and German or Danish and Swedish. The study is at https://linguistics.stonybrook.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/u5/publications/JSLBCS2.pdf" ---
Check your
email. Dougweller (talk) 14:41, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Request for mediation rejected
ANI discussion
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 13:09, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
Arbitration request
You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Serbo-Croatian infobox dispute and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—
Thanks,--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 01:50, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Arbitration request
The arbitration request naming you as a party has been [1] declined by the Committee. The comments at the request may be useful in moving forward. For the Arbitration Committee, Rschen7754 22:21, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
IE
Hi Taivo,
You made a comment in an old discussion that "Indo-European" ... preserves a very archaic bifurcation into "Indian world" and "European world". Sort of leaves out Iranian, Armenian, Anatolian, etc. Actually, I don't think it reflects any such bifurcation. "Indo-Germanic" was coined in 1810 for the languages "from the Ganges to Iceland", simply reflecting its geographic extent. Celtic was not yet known to be IE, but Iceland was still the western extreme, so that might not have mattered. Bopp preferred "Indo-European", and "Indo-Germanic" seems to have fallen out of favor outside of Germany some time around the world wars, though I can't tell if anti-German sentiment played a role. (It's still "Indo-Germanic" in Germany.) So AFAICT it doesn't reflect an archaic bifurcation any more than Uto-Aztecan or Oto-Manguean do. — kwami (talk) 02:38, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
- I think you hit the nail on the head with "old discussion". I can't remember what the issue was or why I made the comment. Context is everything :) --Taivo (talk) 21:23, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
- It was in the discussion to move the Tai–Kadai article to its current name, where you said that it wasn't the only family name to reflect an obsolete classification. It's not important any more, I just came across it again and thought the point might be relevant in the future. — kwami (talk) 23:03, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Middle Persian
Would you happen to know or have an opinion about this statement, "Middle Persian was highly inluenced by the Aramaic language. It is estimated that about half of its vocabulary was Semitic in origin."? It was recently added to the Middle Persian article.[2] --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:59, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- I doubt the "half" part, but the rest is certainly true. Aramaic was the lingua franca of the Persian empire and Mesopotamia until the rise of Arabic. --Taivo (talk) 22:03, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Cool. So besides the "half part", do you know of a reference that supports, "Middle Persian was highly influenced by the Aramaic language."? --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:10, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Lithuanian language
Please read this section: Talk:Lithuanian language#Suggestion: Adding an IE words comparison table to this article, and write your opinion. Zyma (talk) 17:49, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- Taivo, still waiting for your answer. Please answer on my talkpage or Talk:Lithuanian language. Thanks. --Zyma (talk) 11:21, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
Bosnian language
The term is of convenience [3]. Please find another forum to dispute the encyclopedia Britannica. Further attempts to disrupt a proper, reliably cited, elucidated understanding of the term will only take this matter to the noticeboard. POV-hijacking of the article will not be tolerated. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 22:13, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
@Taivo: Actually, I don't mind "term of convenience", since that's what it seems to me to be: A hybrid name due to the lack of an acceptable unitary name, sometimes replaced w BCMS etc. But I see no point to the note: if s.o. dn know what SC is, that's what the link is for. This just seems to be Praxis getting upset that "Bosnian" isn't part of the name. Shall we just delete the note altogether? I don't see how it adds anything to the article. — kwami (talk) 07:15, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
- Inappropriate backstage deliberations. There's a relevant talk page for this. Let me remind you of Wikipedia:Ownership of articles. Kwami's claims have been refuted. Bias in the style of "it doesn't seem necessary so let's get rid of it" won't do either. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 16:25, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
- Praxis, Encyclopedia is not a reliable LINGUISTIC source. It is a general source, but when actual linguistic sources exist, then it is of secondary quality. And I don't appreciate your attempts at stupid wikilawyering. If Kwami and I want to have a discussion on my talk page, then we will. --Taivo (talk) 14:57, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- Fine. It's all over with now anyways. Let's just move on. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 21:04, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- Praxis, Encyclopedia is not a reliable LINGUISTIC source. It is a general source, but when actual linguistic sources exist, then it is of secondary quality. And I don't appreciate your attempts at stupid wikilawyering. If Kwami and I want to have a discussion on my talk page, then we will. --Taivo (talk) 14:57, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Silesian language
(Lechitic languages / West Slavic languages) Could you please help on this?--Sobiepan (talk) 01:01, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Administrator explicitly said that you should calmly discuss, the revert in this edit-war leads to blockage account. Franek K. (talk) 01:20, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, I suspect that Sobiepan's contributions need to be investigated. This is not a one-off incident over whether Silesian is a language or a dialect but, rather, part of a distinctly POV-push for the Polonization of content in a multitude of articles. I'd be happy to introduce a number of dubious & misleading changes flying under the radar (such as slipping WP:OR links contrary to the sourced content). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:12, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- 1. Dear Iryna , please check it on Slavic languages, 2. Pomerania was inhabited by Pomeranians a Lechitic tribe (a subgroup of the Poles), so the language they spoke was West slavic 3. Your last edits could be considered Wikihounding...--Sobiepan (talk) 07:44, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Please take care as to which policies and guidelines you invoke. Checking a user's special contributions after detecting POV blanking and misleading linking on several of your own watchlist pages is not Wikihounding, but a common sense check, or: "done carefully, and with good cause... Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles." Considering the fact that I'd never had an encounter with you before yesterday, I'm wondering how I could be understood to be hounding you.
- 1. Dear Iryna , please check it on Slavic languages, 2. Pomerania was inhabited by Pomeranians a Lechitic tribe (a subgroup of the Poles), so the language they spoke was West slavic 3. Your last edits could be considered Wikihounding...--Sobiepan (talk) 07:44, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, I suspect that Sobiepan's contributions need to be investigated. This is not a one-off incident over whether Silesian is a language or a dialect but, rather, part of a distinctly POV-push for the Polonization of content in a multitude of articles. I'd be happy to introduce a number of dubious & misleading changes flying under the radar (such as slipping WP:OR links contrary to the sourced content). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:12, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
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- Judging by the context of your 'adjustment' to 'po more', I have to say that your explanation strikes me as being less than honest.
1. You did not leave an edit summary;
2. You changed the link to 'West Slavic', but left the text as 'Slavic';
3. I know several Slavic languages and know that the term is not exclusively West Slavic. Nevertheless, I checked the cited source which explicitly used the term 'Slavic'.
- Judging by the context of your 'adjustment' to 'po more', I have to say that your explanation strikes me as being less than honest.
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- I have no interest in 'hounding' you but, after your exchange with me on my talk page yesterday, should I see any changes made by you on any articles on my watchlist, I will be checking them thoroughly to ensure that you don't accidentally slip unreferenced information into cited text. It's common sense. Thank you for your patience and understanding. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:27, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
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