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Contents
- 1 Proposal: MOS should apply to portals
- 2 RFC: Indefinitely blocked IP addresses
- 3 Another Question about how to interpret WP:NFCC images
- 4 ro.wikipedia on things across Dnestr river
- 5 Fair use video clips
- 6 Proposed naming convention (UK Parliament constituencies)
- 7 Primary usage for works with derivatives
- 8 Why are some articles removed?
- 9 Referencing for lists of internal links
- 10 Policy question about article content
Proposal: MOS should apply to portals
Should MOS applies to portals? Mitch Ames (talk) 08:13, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
There has been some discussion at
about capitalisation of portal names, for both the page name and the use of the portal name in the banner on the portal page - specifically whether they should use title case or sentence case. It has been suggested that portals do not need to follow the general MOS: rule of title case, because MOS only applies to articles, not portal namespace.
Given that portals are:
- explicitly intended for readers - according to WP:PORTAL, they are intended to serve as "Main Pages" for specific topics
- linked to from article pages using {{Portal}}
- required (by WP:P) to "comply with Wikipedia's core content policies"
I suggest that from the readers' perspective a portal page serves the same purpose as an article, and so we should update WP:PORTAL to explicitly state that portals should comply with MOS, and update MOS to state that it apples to portals. Mitch Ames (talk) 05:57, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
- Just a really quick comments for now: IMHO,
- WP:MOS should definitely apply to portals too, where possible (in this case page titles). Portals are already required to comply with WP:V, WP:OR, and WP:NPOV, and are meant for readers too. It would actually be great if the MOS could have quick line or two on its applicability; if such a section is created I think we would expect it to say that it applies to pages meant for readers in general.
- I don't think it's immediately obvious that portal titles are proper nouns. The phrase "Portal:Page" just describes the page as a member of the set of portals. That said, I'm no linguist.
- -Well-restedTalk 07:42, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
- I would expect that portal titles would follow the same rules as article titles - if it's named after an existing capitalised proper name then we keep that capitalisation (eg Portal:Janet Jackson), but otherwise use sentence case (eg Portal:Australian roads, because "roads" is not a proper noun). Mitch Ames (talk) 10:01, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
- I agree. The question shouldn't be whether all portal titles are proper nouns; it should be whether the phrase that comes after "Portal:" in the portal title, is a proper noun.-Well-restedTalk 15:01, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
- I would expect that portal titles would follow the same rules as article titles - if it's named after an existing capitalised proper name then we keep that capitalisation (eg Portal:Janet Jackson), but otherwise use sentence case (eg Portal:Australian roads, because "roads" is not a proper noun). Mitch Ames (talk) 10:01, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
- Do you also think WP:MOS#Section_organization and WP:MOS#Section_headings should apply to portals? That is, no section heading above the lead section, and using
== Heading ==
to create section headings rather than the boxes used by {{Random portal component}} and related templates. - Evad37 (talk) 10:37, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
-
- My intent was that portals should comply with MOS for issues such as:
- capitalisation (obviously),
- date and number formats,
- use of bold, italics, etc
- and the like. I hadn't actually thought about layout, sections vs boxes, although as you point out they are quite significantly different. Personally I'm a minimalist, and I'm not that keen on multicolour boxes - but don't expect anyone else to be convinced on that point. So I limit my proposal to things like the bullet points above, and exclude WP:LAY and the like. This obviously makes it a bit harder to codify, but I still think that it is worth doing. Suggestions as to "exactly" what should or should not be included are welcome. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:25, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
- Seems obvious that MOS should apply to portals, and if the nature of portals requires separate treatment, that is an editing issue for improving the MOS so that it meets all of our needs - including the any unique aspects of portals. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:19, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
- If every guideline in MOS applies to portals, then the first sentence ["The Manual of Style (often abbreviated MoS or MOS) is a style guide for all Wikipedia articles."] can be expanded with the two words "and portals" ["The Manual of Style (often abbreviated MoS or MOS) is a style guide for all Wikipedia articles and portals."]
- —Wavelength (talk) 02:50, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- As Mitch pointed out above, its unlikely that there will be consensus to completely restyle portal layout/sections to the current MOS standards. There may be other areas of the MOS that haven't been designed with portals in mind, because portals aren't articles – they are mini-Main Pages for specific subject areas. - Evad37 [talk] 04:18, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- Seems obvious that MOS should apply to portals, and if the nature of portals requires separate treatment, that is an editing issue for improving the MOS so that it meets all of our needs - including the any unique aspects of portals. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:19, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
- My intent was that portals should comply with MOS for issues such as:
(Note: I have placed on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style a notice of this discussion - Evad37 [talk] 01:36, 6 January 2014 (UTC))
Let me reiterate my views since the discussion have forked all over the place. As I raised earlier on the other page, this is a classical bicycle shed (aka Parkinson's law of triviality) discussion. Other than having a consistent "look and feel" on the header, nothing else is achieved (while at the risk of breaking many subpage components). And going along with the law of triviality, I see that no one raises WP:EMDASH and WP:ENDASH issues (both fall under MOS) on the Main Page today. Perhaps, like what "the law" described, everyone is too intimidated to touch it because the Main Page was deemed to be too technical and "so one assumes that those that work on it understand it" while WP:TITLEFORMAT is easy to understand so "everyone involved wants to add a touch and show personal contribution" (and we haven't even begun on whether MOS applies on portals)? I'm glad that portal is drawing more attention. But sadly this is more drama than actual content improvement. OhanaUnitedTalk page 08:07, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- Looking at the featured portal criteria, portals - or at least featured portals - are already required to comply with parts of the MOS... "It adheres to the standards in the Manual of Style and the relevant WikiProject guidelines; this includes conventions on naming, spelling, and style". Does this resolve the (main) issue in this thread? - Evad37 [talk] 16:14, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
-
- Ping @Mitch Ames: - Evad37 [talk] 10:17, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
-
- WP:FPO? does indeed imply that portals should follow MOS, in that "our very best work on portals ... adheres to the standards in the Manual of Style". Assuming that we all agree that portals should (in general) follow MOS, I do think we need to update WP:PORTAL and/or WP:PORTG to explicitly say so, and update MOS to say "applies to articles and portals". It ought only be few extra words on each page, and should then prevent future disagreements along the lines of "portals are not articles (because they are in different namespaces) and MOS says it (only) applies to articles".
- As far as WP:MOS#Section_organization and WP:LAY are concerned, I don't think there is a problem. They currently explicitly refer to articles, so we leave them unchanged. Lots of other parts of MOS probably also refer to articles, but I don't propose going through and changing them all (or those that are appropriate) to "articles and portals". I think one statement at the top of WP:MOS that "The Manual of Style ...is a style guide for all Wikipedia articles and portals" would be sufficient to express the intent. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:13, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
The proposed change
-
- I propose the following specific changes:
- WP:MOS, first sentence:
The Manual of Style (often abbreviated MoS or MOS) is a style guide for all Wikipedia articles and portals.
-
- WP:PORTG, lead section, insert new paragraph between the existing two:
Portals should normally follow the Wikipedia Manual of Style, although the nature of a portal will sometimes preclude this. (For example, WP:LAY will generally not apply to portals.)
- WP:PORTG, lead section, insert new paragraph between the existing two:
-
- Can I have some indication of agreement or objection to these changes. Naturally suggestions for improvements to the wording are encouraged. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:42, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't get it. This seems like trying to change the rules to force the renaming of a portal to what the proposer wants it to be. Am I missing something? Are there other examples where said "noncompliance" has been an issue? --Rschen7754 06:10, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- I've proposed the additions to the guidelines for the reasons that I listed in my initial post. Obviously I would prefer that the specific instance (Portal:Australian roads) follow the new guidelines - for the same reasons as listed in my original post, to present a consistent style to the readers. Note that my proposed change is not a radical change - it is consistent with the overall reason for having a Manual of Style (to present a consistent style to the readers), and is also consistent with what is stated (eg WP:FPO?) or implied (eg adding portals to articles) in other parts of the guidelines anyway.
- If you disagree with the proposed additions, and/or my reasoning for the additions, please say so explicitly, and also why you disagree. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:09, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- First of all, this needs a sitewide RFC, and posting to the appropriate pages (WP:FPOC?) Secondly, it's generally a bad idea to change a rule when we don't like one certain implementation of it. Have we thought through all the ramifications? In such a short discussion, I don't think so. --Rschen7754 09:46, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
- Also, when one of the Featured portal candidate directors is telling you this is a bad idea, you should stop and pay attention. And you still haven't answered my question "Are there other examples where said "noncompliance" has been an issue?" --Rschen7754 09:51, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
- "this needs a sitewide RFC, and posting to the appropriate pages"
I've raised an RFC. There is already an item at WT:PORTAL, but feel free to mention this discussion anywhere else you think appropriate. - "it's generally a bad idea to change a rule when we don't like one certain implementation of it"
It's not I "don't like one certain implementation" - I would "not like" any of the portals that use title case, when articles generally use sentence case, because it seems to me to be inconsistent. I raised the matter at one specific portal (Portal:Australian roads) because I was looking at that portal for other reasons and noticed the discrepancy in the use of capitalisation. When I raised the matter on that portal's talk page it was suggested that a broader discussion was required and then ultimately at WT:Portal#Capitalisation of portal names it was suggested that there was no need to change the portal(s) because MOS did not apply to portals. At that point it occurred to me that perhaps MOS should apply to portals, for the reasons I listed in my initial post here. - "Have we thought through all the ramifications?
The ramifications are much like any other change to the guidelines. With any luck new articles/portals will follow the new guidelines. Editors may or may not update existing articles/portals as they see fit. If specific portals can be updated easily, good. If there are problems on specific portals then we will ignore the new guideline and not change the portal. - "Also, when one of the Featured portal candidate directors is telling you this is a bad idea, you should stop and pay attention"
OhanaUnited's primary objection to this proposal (other than that it is not something more important) appears to be that it might break subpages - presumably on existing portals. However changing the guidelines does not automatically mean that we must change every portal to comply. What I hope it will mean is that over time, the majority of portals will become more consistent in style to the articles. I also remind both the Featured portal candidate director and Rschen7754 that the featured portal criteria already state that featured portals should comply with MOS. Given that featured portals "exemplifies our very best work on portals" and featured portals should follow MOS, it seems logical to me other portals would be better if they also followed MOS. - "Are there other examples where said "noncompliance" has been an issue?"
I'm not aware of other examples of editors debating whether sentence or title case should be used on a portal page. There are other portals that use title case, eg Portal:Molecular and Cellular Biology. Portal:History of science uses title case in the banner (but not the page title). - Mitch Ames (talk) 09:10, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
- In short, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I still don't see why this is a serious enough problem to justify the large page moves and cleanup that this would require. And now that this is officially a RFC, Oppose. --Rschen7754 09:39, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
- This proposal is not to move any pages, it is to change WP:MOS and WP:PORTG. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:42, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
- But it would require the portals to be moved to hit/keep featured portal status, no? --Rschen7754 08:05, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- According to WP:FPO? item 2, even without my proposed change, featured portals should already follow MOS, so strictly speaking my proposed change would make no difference to featured portals or candidates. As I said previously if portals (featured or not) can change to comply with MOS where appropriate without major problems then they should, although there's no urgency to do so. As with any other change to MOS, we don't all stop work on everything else just to make sure all existing articles comply with the new guidelines - we try to follow the guidelines on new material, and fix existing material when convenient. I'm not going to check every featured portal and insist that its status be revoked because it doesn't follow MOS, and I doubt anyone else will either. (But if I or anyone else was inclined to do that, we could do that anyway because of the existing WP:FPO? item 2.) Mitch Ames (talk) 04:00, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
- But it would require the portals to be moved to hit/keep featured portal status, no? --Rschen7754 08:05, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- This proposal is not to move any pages, it is to change WP:MOS and WP:PORTG. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:42, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
- In short, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I still don't see why this is a serious enough problem to justify the large page moves and cleanup that this would require. And now that this is officially a RFC, Oppose. --Rschen7754 09:39, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
- "this needs a sitewide RFC, and posting to the appropriate pages"
- Also, when one of the Featured portal candidate directors is telling you this is a bad idea, you should stop and pay attention. And you still haven't answered my question "Are there other examples where said "noncompliance" has been an issue?" --Rschen7754 09:51, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
- First of all, this needs a sitewide RFC, and posting to the appropriate pages (WP:FPOC?) Secondly, it's generally a bad idea to change a rule when we don't like one certain implementation of it. Have we thought through all the ramifications? In such a short discussion, I don't think so. --Rschen7754 09:46, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
Is there a proposal? It has been pointed out that the MOS already applies to portals. Can we leave it at that? Dicklyon (talk) 03:01, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
- The specific changes proposed are listed above - in particular this edit of 13:42, 9 January 2014 (UTC).
- Currently WP:MOS says it applies to articles and doesn't mention portals (which are a different namespace, so might be thought not to be articles), and WP:PORTG doesn't mention MOS. One can indirectly deduce that portals ought to comply with MOS by virtue of the mention on WP:Featured portal criteria, but I think it should be state explicitly on the "front page" of the relevant guidelines. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:16, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
- Support – the small reminders may he helpful if some editors are unaware or are claiming that MOS is not applicable to their portals. Dicklyon (talk) 16:39, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
- Support – if featured portals are already supposed to comply with the MOS then it stands to reason that the other portals would be better if they did, too. And these changes are extremely modest. AgnosticAphid talk 09:36, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - This seems to me to be yet another case in which the Manual of Style, rather than being used as a set of good writing practices, is used as a weapon by one side of a dispute. In one of the other forums where this came up, both Featured Portal directors told you that moving portals is a difficult and risky proposition. As one of the most active portal namespace editors other than those two, I am going to tell you the same thing. Literally a few hours ago, someone broke a portal by botching a move, and I had to track down someone with more experience and fancier tools than I have to fix the mess. There are plenty of portals that could be renamed. I'll note that three of the roads portals are Portal:Australian roads, Portal:Canada Roads, and Portal:U.S. Roads. Aside from that Roads is capitalized in one and not the other, we have one portal using the demonym (Australian), one using the simple name (Canada), and one using an acronym (U.S.). If you take a look at the running list of portals that I have, you'll note that Portal:Canada Roads and Portal:U.S. Roads are in the minority in capitalizing the second word; with the obvious exclusion of proper nouns, no one else is doing it that way. Portal:Alternative rock, Portal:Ancient warfare, Portal:Arab–Israeli conflict, Portal:Artificial intelligence, and Portal:Atmospheric sciences are some of the ones that don't capitalize the second word, while Portal:Aquarium Fish and Portal:Atlantic Archipelagoes do. Does this bother me? Yeah, a tiny bit. Am I going to force the issue? No. Considering that some portals will have to be manually fixed, which may take hours, I don't think it's worth it. If people spent as much time improving portals as they do arguing about them, we might not have so many terribly shitty portals out there. TLDR: I am not convinced that this is a good faith effort to improve the portal namespace, but rather an attempt to use the MoS to further a dispute. As such, I'll have no part of it. Sven Manguard Wha? 23:43, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
-
- My response to this is basically the same as to Rschen7754 (2014-01-18, 17:10 (UTC+8)) - just because we change the guidelines doesn't mean we must change every portal.
- "If people spent as much time improving portals as they do arguing about them, we might not have so many terribly shitty portals out there"
If we made the guidelines consistent (per my proposed changes), we might get slightly better portals in future. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:49, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose, portals are a niche area that should stay open to experimentation in style issues (and otherwise). Hard rules (especially rules that are codifications of best practices on non-portals) = less fun for portal creators. The capitalisation of portal titles seems like a complete non-issue to me, certainly not worth the substantial amount of work that renaming portals brings with it. —Kusma (t·c) 12:05, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
- Support in principle, with the caveat that all users present understand that there's no urgency in enforcing MoS on portal pages. Users can continue to ignore MoS where there's good reason and consensus to do so. SamBC(talk) 12:09, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose for now. I have always loved the idea of portals, but they aren't working right now - they barely get any traffic. If they are to re-invent themselves in something that are used more (and I hope they do, I think they could be really useful) they need to have as little interference of "but rule x says y" as possible. Once they start taking off and getting more use again, we could then (optionally) set up style guidelines in MOS that govern portals, but now MOS "interference" is the last thing that portals need, and if they can become better by ignoring MOS they should certainly do so. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 09:35, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
-
- "if they can become better by ignoring MOS"
How does portals having different styling (eg capitalisation) to the articles make them better? Perhaps the portals would be "better" if they looked more like they were a part of Wikipedia, with similar style. - "they barely get any traffic"
Perhaps we should pick the best of them, ones that we think exemplify our very best work. We could look at what makes them so good then propose that other portals should perhaps follow similar guidelines so the other portals would improve. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:05, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
- "if they can become better by ignoring MOS"
- Support this should be a no brainer but it nothing ever is any more... Portals are designed to be a front page for a topic area they should follow MOS. This isnt so much creating a another branch to the MOS stick beat people up in discussions with but ensuring that MOS/PORTG reflects best practices already in use by the community. Gnangarra 11:40, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose Virtually all discussions are directed towards WP:TITLEFORMAT part of the MoS. I just can't connect the dots on how adhering to TITLEFORMAT will bring "slightly better portals in future". Materials don't get written by itself nor having an MoS rule will encourage participation rate in portal namespace. Having stepped away from this discussion for close to a month allowed me to look at this issue from a fresh perspective. Up to this point, I have not seen an example where this issue results in content of inferior quality. Can anyone show an actual example where MoS non-compliance caused poor contents to appear in portal? If no evidence can be produced, then to me it appears to be a non-issue. OhanaUnitedTalk page 02:43, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
- "Virtually all discussions are directed towards WP:TITLEFORMAT part of the MoS."
The matter that caused me to raise this proposal in the first case was MOS:CAPS, rather than WP:TITLEFORMAT. ("Use lowercase [for artitle titles], except for proper names" is a subset of WP:TITLEFORMAT and MOS:CAPS.) So my specific example is about capitalisation, but it could just as easily have been any of (most of) the other things covered by MOS.
- "Virtually all discussions are directed towards WP:TITLEFORMAT part of the MoS."
-
- A specific example is Germ theory of disease, which includes in its See also section a link to Portal:Molecular and Cellular Biology. If we accept the MOS:CAPS guideline that we should consistently use sentence case – not necessarily because sentence case is better, but because consistency is better – then Germ theory of disease would be a better presented article if it consistently used sentence case, including in its See also section. Likewise if the reader decides to further investigate the subject of molecular and cellular biology by clicking the link (an internal link, not an external link) from See also, the reader is still reading Wikipedia so would get a more consistent, and thus better, experience if the portal generally followed the same styling guidelines where feasible (eg not WP:LAY). I know it's not a major improvement in the grand scheme of things, but if we think it's important enough to have a Manual of Style at all, presumably it ought to apply all of the pages that we explicitly want our readers to look at. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:24, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
- Support We should support our standards. We have WP:IAR, so there is nothing here that forces bad decisions. Unscintillating (talk) 01:02, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
- Support. As previously noted, MOS compliance is already specified in WP:FPO?, so why not explicitly say so in WP:MOS and WP:PORTG. - Evad37 [talk] 13:45, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
RFC: Indefinitely blocked IP addresses
Hi, this RFC is meant to facilitate discussion as part of an ongoing cross-wiki trend of various discussions and discussion boards I've noticed recently opened concerning the issue of indefinitely blocked IP addresses. Specifically the purpose of RFC is twofold, namely:
- The unblocking of currently indefinitely blocked IP addresses at Special:BlockList.
- Deprecation of the
{{Indefblockedip}}
template and updating of several policy pages to prohibit future indefinite blocks, which are variously located at Wikipedia:Blocking policy#IP address blocks, Wikipedia:Blocking policy#Indefinite blocks and Wikipedia:Blocking IP addresses#Block lengths.
As I have explained elsewhere on other wikis, my reasons for doing so are thus:
- IP addresses should never be indefinitely blocked as they can change hands pretty quickly.
- In the event that any single IP address does need an indefinite block, the Meta Stewards have already undertaken the necessary measures to solve that issue.
Please add your comments to the discussion below. Thanks! TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 20:47, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Support 1 (unblock existing indefed IPs)
- Per OP. NE Ent 21:05, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- Partially, I think we should change from indefinite blocks to ~5 year blocks, all ip blocks that are currently indefinite should be changed to 4 years plus a random nubmer of days between 180 and 360, that way each ip gets released slowly and we aren't re flooded with a bunch of vandals on one day. CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:18, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Oppose 1 (leave indefed IPs blocked)
- Some IPs are open proxies that have been stable for a very long time. Others are blocks designed to counter specific vandals, or hotbeds of vandals. A blanket unblock is not helpful. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:06, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - they are indefinite, not infinite. Some are stable cases that simply should be shut down for a long time. No need to have to wait until the vandalism/abuse/whatever starts again from that address. It is easier to have a regular review of indefinite blocks than to have to block again and clean up the mess. --Dirk Beetstra T C 04:00, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose I oppose because I would be happy to require a log in for all purposes other than talk pages.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:31, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose. Just as one size doesn't fit all, there can be varying reasons for blocks. I'm fine with the idea that indeff blocks of IPs should be done cautiously, etc., but there can be circumstances when such blocks are helpful and appropriate. Review them, and unblock case-by-case on the merits, but not this proposal. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:28, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - most of these IPs were blocked for good reason (usually vandalism). As for the argument that IP addresses can change hands... If that occurs, the new owner of the IP can easily contact an admin, explain the situation and have the address unblocked. Deal with them on a case by case basis. Blueboar (talk) 19:52, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- I think part of your argument is a good point except no admin is going to unlock an IP just because they say its a new user and most users wouldn't bother or know what to do. They would just give up and Wikipedia would be out an editor. 138.162.8.59 (talk) 19:59, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - we should unblock them gradually, at least a year after the beginning of the block of each. Unblocking them all at once will cause too big a rise in vandalism and sockpuppetry; and keeping IPs blocked with an indef and unblocking them later, as opposed to reducing te block length, will prevent the vandal from knowing when (s)he can vandalize from there again. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 09:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose Chris Troutman (talk) 20:54, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose not a great deal to be gained by unblocking open proxies. Unblocking them at all is probably a bad idea, unblocking them all at once is a horrible idea. -- Bfigura (talk) 01:07, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose - Absolutely awful idea. Many of these IP's will pick right back up where they left off, as the worst vandals we have. Leave matters as they are, per Blueboar. IP's can ask nicely to be unblocked if they change hands and don't want to register an account. Jusdafax 06:12, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose Bad idea. Little to no benefit to the encyclopedia and plenty of risk. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:02, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose: If we have a ceiling block limit, then it might deter a lot of vandals, but there'll still be some that come back. As per Dirk Beetstra, they can always be unblocked. Supernerd11 :D Firemind ^_^ Pokedex 00:17, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Support 2 (stop creating new indefed IPs)
- Per OP. NE Ent 21:06, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- But we do need to take some time in going through all the current blocks. Mr.Z-man 21:33, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- Support, the longest block should be ~ the age of the encylopedia. When wikipedia started did you know what it was going to look like now? Do you know what it will look like in (12?) years? Indefinite blocks are unlikley to ever get reviewd and are too easy to put in place, making them very long forces a review every <very long> atleast.CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:20, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Oppose 2 (stop creating new indefed IPs)
- Opposing for essentially the same reason I'm opposing proposal 1. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:06, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- Not sure how one would either oppose 1 and support 2, or support 1 and oppose 2 - but since I oppose 1, this is a good one to keep and to explain to the rare cases where the IP does get reassigned and an editor needs to get through what they have cab do to appeal. --Dirk Beetstra T C 04:02, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Well, one is about removing current indef-IP blocks and the other is about preventing future indef-IP blocks. I think Mr.Z-man has it about right, though we still need to hammer out the details for implementation of the review process. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 07:02, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose Same reason as under Oppose 1NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:33, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose. Given what I said in opposition to 1. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:29, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose Chris Troutman (talk) 20:54, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose Why make things harder on editors and easier on vandals? Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:05, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose Per my opposition to 1. Come on, really? The majority of hardcore vandalism comes from IP's. Some of them will vandalize for years. Without the vital tool of indef blocking them, you create a situation where the cycle can repeat endlessly. This and the first proposal need to be rejected firmly as ideas that will eat up massive amounts of editor time with no benefit to the 'pedia. I reject the concept that we are discouraging new editors, because those who newly own an IP number can ask to have it unblocked or merely register an account. Jusdafax 20:25, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Discussion (indefed IPs)
Why do we need to have the RfC on this page? If my watchlist starts filling up, I shall unwatch. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:01, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- The Villiage Pump Policy would of been a far better location for an RFC than here, with a note left on technical to advise. This isn't really a technical RFC.Blethering Scot 22:14, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, I thought unblocking IPs was mainly a technical matter up for discussion. You can move the discussion to VPP as appropriate but please don't forget to update the links at Wikipedia talk:Blocking IP addresses, Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject on open proxies and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 22:27, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- Done, I've moved it from Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 123#Indefinitely blocked IP addresses to the policy section of the Village Pump. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 02:52, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Proposal 3 (indefed IPs)
Last October, there was an RFC on reviewing Indefinite IP Blocks, the consensus was that we should review them regularly to make sure they were still needed. However that review required the input of advanced permission holders, Other then some more talk about it, as far as I know, nothing ever happened. As a middle ground, recognizing that some portion of the indefinite blocks are still needed, I propose that all existing IP blocks be reduced to 1 year from the end of the RFC. Going forward, they may be reviewed by holders of appropriate permissions, and after review, if still justified, periodically extended up to a maximum of 2 years duration. New blocks would be limited to a maximum of 2 years. This would give us time to review them, while at the same time, any forgotten blocks would start to release 1 year from now. Monty845 03:25, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Note that that RFC applied specifically to rangeblocks. There are only 200 indef rangeblocks, there are 20,000 indef blocks of single IPs. Reviewing all of them annually isn't really practical. 90% are proxy blocks. ProcseeBot only blocks proxies it finds for 60 days to 1 year (what criteria it uses to determine block length isn't really clear). So it would probably be safe to downgrade all of the current proxy blocks to 1 year. Mr.Z-man 04:33, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Just to note, that I think that having them automatically become unblocked and having vandals coming through them isn't really practical either. Actually, it might be what certain 'contributors' are waiting for (well, I know they are). --Dirk Beetstra T C 05:07, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- I think the answer to this RFC really boils down to one question, do we want to encourage editing to Wikipedia or do we not? If the answer to that question is yes, then we should review these blocks and eliminate some of them. Probably a lot of them because although there is a limited number of range blocks, some of them include a huge number of IP's and potential editors. Will some be vandals, almost certainly, but it will also advocate more helpful editors as well contributing to the site. Some are valid certainly but probably less than half are still valid. I also agree that an annual review isn't practical but some of these have been blocked for years and in that time the use of proxy servers as a security measure has been adopted as an industry best practice, a few years ago it would have earned you an indef. We also need to look at the validity to ProcseeBot IMO. I never liked the argument of blocking only because its a proxy, most of which have never even done one edit which means blocking it is both pointless and a waste of resources akin to creating a bot to move a stub tag. The use of ProcseeBot is an afront to AGF. So if you want to continue to foster the culture of exclusionism and elitism that has been increasingly visible in Wikipedia, then continue to leave all these blocked and perhaps even pursue forcing people to create an account like Facebook. If you want to encourage people to participate and collaborate to build an encyclopedia then we need to unblock as many as possible to encourage that. 138.162.8.59 (talk) 15:09, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- "the use of proxy servers as a security measure has been adopted as an industry best practice" - There is a difference between a proxy and an open proxy. Only open proxies, which can be used by anyone, are blocked. There is nothing wrong with blocking open proxies pre-emptively, as they are used almost exclusively for abuse. There are few legitimate reasons to be editing through an open proxy, and these are generally dealt with through IP block exemptions. Mr.Z-man 18:17, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Your right there is a difference, but regardless of whether they are open or not, if they have never edited, there is no point in blocking thousands of them for no reason other than speculation that someone, someday might be a vandal. Certainly we could setup a filter or something so that these can be monitored more easily, even have a bot notify someone or a WikiProject, but just blocking tens of thousands of edits "preemptively" is frankly not a good practice and worse at least a borderline violation of Wikipedia policy. Its still a lack of AGF. Not that folks care about either policy or AGF these days. If they aren't vandals then the action isn't being done to protect the project. Its just laziness on the part of admins that don't want to do their work and would rather block everyone so no one can edit and eliminate the potential that a vandal might masquerade as an editor. The bottomline is its being done to prevent editing...good and bad and really not even then because most have never edited. You say there are few valid reasons....but you admit the reasons are there. Let me ask this even though I suspect no one even bothered to look, partially because I honestly don't know and partially as an extension of good faith to bot and its operator, how many have actually been used to vandalize and which ones were used to do meaningful edits? I looked at a few and the only one of the ones I found that had even done an exit was a vandal, several didn't add much value I grant you (minor typos and such) but it still helps incrementally. 138.162.8.59 (talk) 18:51, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- An open proxy does not represent a "person" like a residential IP. They are typically servers that no one would normally be editing from. Anyone editing via an open proxy is connecting to it from somewhere else, which means they can edit without it. AGF is not a suicide pact. We know from years of experience that open proxies are heavily abused by vandals, spammers, and sockpuppeteers, with very few good edits (because, again, there are very few reasons for legitimate users to use an open proxy). And we have procedures in place to help the few legitimate users. Note that just because you see no edits on the IP's contributions page doesn't mean they're not being used. That just means they aren't being used by unregistered users. The biggest problem with open proxies is not casual vandalism, but spammers and sockpuppeteers using open proxies with registered accounts. The time and effort spent dealing with a persistent abuser is much higher than with a regular vandal. Mr.Z-man 21:32, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Ok, case in point, I tried to reply again and now I am getting a messagem because I am editing as an IP, stating A"n automated filter has identified this edit as potentially unconstructive, and it has been disallowed. If this edit is constructive, please report this error." There is absolutely nothing in the statement that was negative or a swear word so why should it be blocked? 138.162.8.59 (talk) 21:59, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
-
- Oh I see it failed for common vandal phrases. Way to go Wikipedia, way to go!. I submitted it to Wikipedia:Edit filter/False positives/Reports but really, how many IP's are going to do that and how many are going to make sense of that crappy template? 138.162.8.59 (talk) 22:07, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
-
- Ok, case in point, I tried to reply again and now I am getting a messagem because I am editing as an IP, stating A"n automated filter has identified this edit as potentially unconstructive, and it has been disallowed. If this edit is constructive, please report this error." There is absolutely nothing in the statement that was negative or a swear word so why should it be blocked? 138.162.8.59 (talk) 21:59, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- An open proxy does not represent a "person" like a residential IP. They are typically servers that no one would normally be editing from. Anyone editing via an open proxy is connecting to it from somewhere else, which means they can edit without it. AGF is not a suicide pact. We know from years of experience that open proxies are heavily abused by vandals, spammers, and sockpuppeteers, with very few good edits (because, again, there are very few reasons for legitimate users to use an open proxy). And we have procedures in place to help the few legitimate users. Note that just because you see no edits on the IP's contributions page doesn't mean they're not being used. That just means they aren't being used by unregistered users. The biggest problem with open proxies is not casual vandalism, but spammers and sockpuppeteers using open proxies with registered accounts. The time and effort spent dealing with a persistent abuser is much higher than with a regular vandal. Mr.Z-man 21:32, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Your right there is a difference, but regardless of whether they are open or not, if they have never edited, there is no point in blocking thousands of them for no reason other than speculation that someone, someday might be a vandal. Certainly we could setup a filter or something so that these can be monitored more easily, even have a bot notify someone or a WikiProject, but just blocking tens of thousands of edits "preemptively" is frankly not a good practice and worse at least a borderline violation of Wikipedia policy. Its still a lack of AGF. Not that folks care about either policy or AGF these days. If they aren't vandals then the action isn't being done to protect the project. Its just laziness on the part of admins that don't want to do their work and would rather block everyone so no one can edit and eliminate the potential that a vandal might masquerade as an editor. The bottomline is its being done to prevent editing...good and bad and really not even then because most have never edited. You say there are few valid reasons....but you admit the reasons are there. Let me ask this even though I suspect no one even bothered to look, partially because I honestly don't know and partially as an extension of good faith to bot and its operator, how many have actually been used to vandalize and which ones were used to do meaningful edits? I looked at a few and the only one of the ones I found that had even done an exit was a vandal, several didn't add much value I grant you (minor typos and such) but it still helps incrementally. 138.162.8.59 (talk) 18:51, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- "the use of proxy servers as a security measure has been adopted as an industry best practice" - There is a difference between a proxy and an open proxy. Only open proxies, which can be used by anyone, are blocked. There is nothing wrong with blocking open proxies pre-emptively, as they are used almost exclusively for abuse. There are few legitimate reasons to be editing through an open proxy, and these are generally dealt with through IP block exemptions. Mr.Z-man 18:17, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- I think the answer to this RFC really boils down to one question, do we want to encourage editing to Wikipedia or do we not? If the answer to that question is yes, then we should review these blocks and eliminate some of them. Probably a lot of them because although there is a limited number of range blocks, some of them include a huge number of IP's and potential editors. Will some be vandals, almost certainly, but it will also advocate more helpful editors as well contributing to the site. Some are valid certainly but probably less than half are still valid. I also agree that an annual review isn't practical but some of these have been blocked for years and in that time the use of proxy servers as a security measure has been adopted as an industry best practice, a few years ago it would have earned you an indef. We also need to look at the validity to ProcseeBot IMO. I never liked the argument of blocking only because its a proxy, most of which have never even done one edit which means blocking it is both pointless and a waste of resources akin to creating a bot to move a stub tag. The use of ProcseeBot is an afront to AGF. So if you want to continue to foster the culture of exclusionism and elitism that has been increasingly visible in Wikipedia, then continue to leave all these blocked and perhaps even pursue forcing people to create an account like Facebook. If you want to encourage people to participate and collaborate to build an encyclopedia then we need to unblock as many as possible to encourage that. 138.162.8.59 (talk) 15:09, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Based on what you tried to post, I suspect the phrase that tripped the filter was "Wikipedia sucks". I don't think automated filters can be smart enough to understand you were quoting a hypothetical person's reaction. I can't think of a way to improve on the filter without letting in a lot of vandalism. As for the message, I suspect it's deliberately vague so vandals don't get hints on how to avoid the filter. See what the guys who work on the edit filters have to say, anyway; they will know better than me. – PartTimeGnome (talk | contribs) 22:24, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Your probably right, in addition to the fact that I am an IP that is. Which only validates my point that Wikipedia, regardless of their bantor that they want to allow it, really doesn't want IP's to edit. I recently tried to add a citation and it required me to put in a captcha 3 times. I finally gave up and just posted the info without the citation...its still there....no citation. Not because I didn't have it or want to put it in, because Wikipedia's filtering and mecahnisms prevented me from doing it. 138.162.8.59 (talk) 22:31, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- In general, I think I would support laxing restrictions to encourage chances for possibly constructive editors to join us as more important than holding back vandalism like "you suck", especially considering how high the vetting process is for AbuseFilter managers. Besides we got a lot of RC patrollers and Twinkle users and random bots running amok doing that anyway, and it's not like they won't
appreciate more chances for adminshipworry about rolling back Vandalism™ to our website with less AF restrictions. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 00:52, 4 February 2014 (UTC)- I would point out that many of these features exist not to pointlessly harass anonymous editors, but so that we can still allow anonymous editing. Imagine if the #6 website in the world allowed anyone to edit any page, but made almost no attempt at preventing spam? We basically have 3 options:
- Require registration to edit. This would drastically reduce the amount of spam and vandalism, but would also hinder positive contributions.
- Use fairly standard anti-spam measures like captchas and link blacklists. This can slow down positive contributions, but still allows them.
- Have no filtering. This would make contribution easiest, but comes at the cost of wasting immense amounts of volunteer time reverting spam.
- The abuse filter was developed for similar reasons (pagemove vandalism, long-term abusers). We could have simply locked pages down, raised the autoconfirmed threshold, restricted pagemoves to a smaller subset of users, or continued wasting more volunteer time reverting. But a more targeted approach, despite being considerably more effort to develop, was decided to be more preferable. There may be some filters that are overly broad, but when we're discussing these systems, we have to look at them in the proper context. Mr.Z-man 17:04, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
- The autoconfirmed threshold is almost like a filter all on its own, and it has existed long before the AF extension did. That's interesting, I'll research the history behind the user group rights some more. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 21:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
- I would point out that many of these features exist not to pointlessly harass anonymous editors, but so that we can still allow anonymous editing. Imagine if the #6 website in the world allowed anyone to edit any page, but made almost no attempt at preventing spam? We basically have 3 options:
- In general, I think I would support laxing restrictions to encourage chances for possibly constructive editors to join us as more important than holding back vandalism like "you suck", especially considering how high the vetting process is for AbuseFilter managers. Besides we got a lot of RC patrollers and Twinkle users and random bots running amok doing that anyway, and it's not like they won't
- Your probably right, in addition to the fact that I am an IP that is. Which only validates my point that Wikipedia, regardless of their bantor that they want to allow it, really doesn't want IP's to edit. I recently tried to add a citation and it required me to put in a captcha 3 times. I finally gave up and just posted the info without the citation...its still there....no citation. Not because I didn't have it or want to put it in, because Wikipedia's filtering and mecahnisms prevented me from doing it. 138.162.8.59 (talk) 22:31, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't know why but I must have missed the previous discussion when I tried to search through the Village Pump archives for them; that's probably the thread that started this crosswiki trend of removing indefinite IP blocks anyway, as with most cases on the English Wikipedia. Well anyway now that the RFC is underway I don't think there should be anything to stop the process of consensus formation, so I feel I can't close it now. I've found lots of interesting points and arguments raised in this thread, but curiously enough I haven't seen anyone try to rebut my second point on letting Meta Stewards handle abusive open proxies with indefinite blocks, and I'd like to see someone at least attempt to counter that argument, besides the vapid "I don't like Meta" argument. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 00:46, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
- One word: manpower. There are currently only 36 stewards, and thus there can be periods where none of them are active online. Meanwhile, we have 1,417 administrators, and there are usually several of them active at all hours of the day. If there is a severe attack from several open proxies, do you really want to wait hours for the nearest steward to arrive on the scene? The English Wikipedia is the most visible and visited wiki, let alone one of the top visited web sites, and thus always a larger target for vandals than all the other wikis combined. Zzyzx11 (talk) 14:33, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
- I do not want to encourage more new editors, especially among the general populace. I would support blocking all IPs from editing since they are not people. Chris Troutman (talk) 20:54, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
- Re: ProcseeBot (@User:Mr.Z-man), it's 60 for the first discovery, 1 year for each subsequent (to prevent spillover on DHCP pools). The main reason for indefinitely blocking an IP or IP range would be school vandalism—not proxies (see also: transclusions of
{{repeatvandal}}
). As far as anyone complaining about "the validity" of the bot, you're more than welcome to re-experience the joys of trying to hunt down, block, and clean up rapid-fire, ip-and-account-hopping vandalism across multiple articles, but I wouldn't recommend it. I was there for that, and it was the reason the bot was made and that the pragmatic decision to proactively—not simply reactively—block open proxies came about. --slakr\ talk / 18:44, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Another Question about how to interpret WP:NFCC images
I have been concerned that many of our discussions over NFCC images have inappropriately placed concerns over the possible loss of revenue to the copyright holder over the value to the public over the "fair use" of the image.
At its base, the reason nations grant copyright protection to intellectual property is that new ideas, new inventions, new ways of expressing ideas, new ways of expressing our culture(s), are all in the public interest. Almost every nation on Earth believes in progress. Copyright holders and inventors, are encouraged to go on and create new inventions, new works of art, because there is a limited term where they can make a profit from their earlier works.
Well, at its base, nations also allow the "fair use" because lawmakers recognized there are certain limited circumstances where making an image that would normally be protected by copyright, available to the public is in the public interest. I suggest when the conditions where the law allows a re-user to claim "fair use" apply, the fair use usage takes precedence over the copyright owner's rights.
If copyright owners could challenge any and all claims of "fair use", solely on the grounds they might lose money, could any claim of "fair use" withstand a court challenge?
I am not a lawyer, probably almost none of us in their fora are, and since no wikimedia contributor participating here who is coincidentaly a lawyer, is putting their professional reputation on the line, and has presented any credentials showing they have any genuine expertise in intellectual property law, we shouldn't regard any of us as having any reliable legal expertise.
The wikimedia foundation has employed lawyers, lawyers whose credentials were on record, who were paid for their legal advice, and whose legal reputation rested, to some extent, on whether that advice turned out to be well-advised. I don't believe the WMF legal advisors have offered an opinion on this issue. But I suggest there are parallels to the legal advice offered with regard to when we should treat images that were taken outside the copyright protection of US copyright law as if they were protected by international intellectual property right protection.
Afghanistan had never passed any copyright laws, patent laws, trademark laws, and had never signed the Berne agreement, or any other international intellectual property right agreement. Up until recently we regarded images taken by Afghans, in Afghanistan, and published in Afghanistan, and not "simultaneously" published in Berne-world, as being in the public domain. The flip side of this for Afghans is that there was nothing in Afghan law that prevented them from using any intellectual property from anywhere else as freely as they wanted. A couple of years ago we learned that Hamid Karzai, the President of Afghanistan, had enacted the Afghan equivalent of an Executive Order on intellectual property, and we started to treat images from Afghans as if they were as protected by International intellectual property right agreements as any other image.
My recollection of the legal advice we received from our legal team was that we had a legal obligation to respect the intellectual property of images of citizens of any country that had both passed its own intellectual property right laws, and had signed an intellectual property right agreement. Our legal team went on to say that the Wikimedia Foundation was free to enforce its own further restrictions, but we weren't obliged to do so, and such restriction had no legal force.
So, although many people involved in the discussion of Afghan images asserted we were "legally obliged" to treat Afghan images as if they protected by intellectual property laws, they actually remain in the public domain.
Similarly, nothing prevents us from agreeing on a policy on fair use images that offered copyright holders far more extensive protection of their right to make a profit than that we are legally obliged to offer. Fine. But if that is what we choose to do, let's make sure we all continue to understand the difference between the restrictions we are legally obliged to offer, and the more extensive protection we chose to offer.
Did we ever really explicitly decide to provide revenue stream protection to copyright holders, or did that clause get included into WP:NFCC due to an excess of enthusiasm or an excess of caution?
Personally, I don't see why we should protect the revenue stream of copyright holders, in those rare and limited circumstances when their images do legitimately qualify for fair use usage. Geo Swan (talk) 17:17, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
- Our concern with non-free images is not the legality side of IP, but the fact that anything burdened with IP will be an issue to a potential redistributor of our content. As such, we will take careful steps to make sure anything that carries a recongized copyright to be treated as non-free. Jimmy Wales has also gone on record (I'd have to search for this) that we should respect the copyright of countries that do not have reciprical copyrights with the United States , even though under US law material copyrighted in those nations would not be considered copyright here. --MASEM (t) 18:29, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
-
- Thanks for your reply.
-
- WRT your first point, "anything burdened with IP will be an issue to a potential redistributor of our content." Are you referring to readers, who see an image on one of our articles, and decide to re-use it on some non-WMF site? Potentially, any of our readers could download an image we were using in a valid "fair use" context, and re-use it elsewhere in a way that would never qualify as a "fair use". But how would that be different than one of our readers re-using a creative commons or gfdl image, and either treating it as public domain, or crediting the wikipedia contributor who uploaded it instead of the actual photographer?
-
- It isn't different. In both cases we have fulfilled our obligations when the information templates we used accurately stated the source, and the license or fair use rationale. There have been a couple of dozen times when I have seen a free image I merely uploaded has been credited to me, personally, or to the wikipedia -- rather than to the actual copyright holder.
-
- What should I do in that case? Well, what does the WMF do, when a WMF contributor has uploaded one of their own images, only to find one of our readers is lapsing from compliance with the license the uploaders chose? If I am not mistaken it is WMF policy to do nothing. Haven't we left the legal burden of making sure the remaining IP rights of our contributors are respected totally up to the individual contributors.
-
- Way back in 2005 or 2006 there was a change in what kind of licenses we accepted. Up until that time licenses that "no commercial reuse" were allowed. As I recall, the explanation offered at that time was that the "no commercial re-use" clause was that someone thought it complicated a deal being cooked up that would see a canned version of the wikipedia distributed with a linux distros.
-
- But, as I wrote above, is policing our readers, to make sure they comply with the licenses our text and images were released under, our job? If we really thought it was our job the simplest solution would be to only use public domain images. If policing our readers is not our job, readers who mis-use fair use images are no more of a problem for us than readers who misinterpret and mis-use gfld or cc licensed material.
-
- With regard to Mr Wales' opinion that we should "respect the copyright of countries that do not have reciprical copyrights with the United States"... This might seem respectful, but it is actually a kind of colonialism. Inherent in our attitude about IP rights, their need for protection, etc, is the idea that "progress is good". (Limited) protection of IP rights is good, because inventors and creators of works of art, cultural expressions, get a monetary reward, that encourages more scientific, technical and cultural progress.
-
- Well, the Taliban, and a lot of our non-Taliban Afghan allies, don't believe in progress, and would happily see several centuries or millenium of progress rewound. The reason why the Afghanistan legistlature has never passed laws protecting copyright of images from Afghanistan, or endorsing and signing on to international IP agreements is not they were too stupid to know how to run their countries, and too stupid to understand that such laws would encourage progress. I suggest that there was not enough political support for "progress" in Afghanistan and the other nations with no IP protection for such laws to be passed. I suggest they weren't too stupid to pass those laws; they weren't too slow to have apssed those laws yet; rather, they knew what they were doing, they didn't believe in "progress", and so did not pass laws to encourage "progress".
-
- There are small slivers of anti-progress people in the USA too. Lovely, peaceful old order Amish and Mennonites have stuck with horse and buggy, and foregone electricity, because they do not subscribe to the idea progress is always a good thing. Well-armed and dangerous survivalists like the Unabomber don't believe in progress either.
-
- When a nation, like Afghanistan, whose legislature have never passed copyright laws or passed legislation endorsing international IP right agreements, it is colonial to act like their passage of such laws is inevitable. If my recollection is correct the Wolesi Jirga and Meshramo Jirga did not pass a copyright law, rather President Karzai issued something like an Executive Order. His proclamation was taken so seriously it took us years to even hear about it.
-
- Karzai's term is almost finished. Allied presence in Afghanistan is almost at an end. The USA proved in Iraq you can't easily force a whose other country to adopt a whole new set of values.
-
-
- We are not here to fight copyright problems and incongruities around the world. We are here to build an encycloped with a free content mission as to allow end users to be able to reuse and redistribute it. As such, we have no control on what the end user does with the material (and we have disclaims to disavow WP from anything wrong they do), but that's why we focus on media that is free for reuse and modification. The FOundation does allow otherwise non-free images to be used in limited circumstances and readers are expected to verify that they are allowed to do what they want with these images before reusing/modifying. We are not policing readers but editors to make sure that if there is a chain of copyright we have properly documented it so that readers know what they are getting if they're doing more than reading on WP. --MASEM (t) 22:52, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
- With regard to the international copyright treaties, most (including Berne) are both for reciprocal protection and at least some harmonisation of law. This means that a country may not want to sign, not because they don't want progress, but because they don't see the law changes that would be necessary for them to sign up for the treaty as promoting progress. MChesterMC (talk) 11:23, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
-
SARS, anti-virals, and IP protection -- a cautionary tale
SARS started in China, but Canada was one of the first nations where it spread, and, after China, it had among the most casualties. The USA was orders of magnitude more lightly hit.
When SARS hit it was recognized that it was viral, but no one knew how it was spread, but a particular anti-viral drug was believed to be of value in preventing front line health workers from acquiring it from infected individuals, and in preventing front line health workers from spreading the virus to previously uninfected patients visiting hospitals for other reasons.
Allan Rock was Canada's Minister of Health during the SARS crisis, and he personally contacted the management of the pharmaceutical company that owned the rights to manufacture and distribute the trusted anti-viral drug in Canada. He asked if they could ship enough doses to give a preventive dose to all the front-line health workers in Toronto, the city most seriously affected by the crisis. And he was told "no", the company couldn't ship that many doses.
Rock then invited bids from other pharmaceutical companies in Canada -- could they provide the urgently needed anti-virals?
Well, the original pharmaceutical company went ballistic. THEY owned the IP rights to that drug in Canada, and they promised to use every means at their disposal to impede the emergency delivery of this drug.
I think this incident highlights why we always have to remember why nations grant IP protection. Nations grant (limited) IP protection because it is seen to be in the public interest. If that pharmaceutical company really didn't have a stockpile of the anti-viral, they could have volunteered to license other firms to manufacture the anti-viral, for the duration of the crisis.
My recollection was that the company in question was only nominally a Canadian company, that it was really the Canadian face of a much larger US company, and that most or all of its senior management we US citizens. My recollection was that their stock of anti-virals was large enough they could have supplied Rock's entire order, but that they decided not to ship any drugs to Canada, and to reserve the entire stock for distribution within the USA.
Even from a purely US public health standpoint this was extremely short-sighted. It would have been far better for public health, far better for world public health, to use the anti-virals to stop the spread of the virus from cities that were the most heavily affected, without regard to borders.
So, with regard to those whose feeling is that we have to protect the revenue stream of those who hold intellectual property rights -- at all costs, I offer this example as to why we should not protect IP rights owner's revenue streams at all costs. Geo Swan (talk) 17:17, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
- I personally think you're looking at this the wrong way. Wikimedia projects go beyond what the law requires in not using nonfree material because free is better than nonfree. Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia project. We're working on producing a free product here. Regardless of what different legal regimes allow us to do with nonfree material, every introduction of nonfree material adulterates the free product. We place a high priority on trying to minimize the impact of that. It's not about the revenue streams of rights-holders; it's about our free encyclopedia. Ntsimp (talk) 05:01, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
ro.wikipedia on things across Dnestr river
Dear friends,
I find it's just a shame the language used by ro.wikipedia as soon as it comes to issues across river Dnestr.
We all know there is an unresolved conflict. And those who are not biased also know who, by slogans calling for ruthless expulsion of all Russian and Ukrainian taxpayers, started the tensions leading to the break-off.
I deem it is NOT wikipedia's role to blame and slander the citizens of Transnistria. They have several parties; they elect their president and parliaments. The constant use of "terrorist", "separatist", "illegal" is unworthy of Wikipedia and unfit to its style. So my question is: Is there anyone in position to suppress those outbursts of chauvinism - be it in Wikimedia, be it in ro.wikipedia?
Apart of being full of bias, the articles are stubs and are full of spelling mistakes - cf. e.g. Grigoriopol city and rayon, and compare it to the Ukrainian version. Thank you for reply to: Lillian Happel on facebook.com (as you warn against publishing one's email address)
P.S. I did follow those revengeful and fruitless discussions prior to the closure of the Moldovan Wikipedia. In fact, those wanting to express themselves in Cyrillic script just publish in ru. or uk.Wikipedias. The ideal solution would be like the Serbian Wikipedia - a two-scripts Wikipedia, but I know it is politically not feasible. 131.188.2.11 (talk) 16:13, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
- Er, we can't help with other language wikis here. You might try [1]. KonveyorBelt 16:30, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
Fair use video clips
Hello,
Can we use, in Wikipedia articles, short video clips of non-free content as "fair use"? For instance, to show the specific ambiance and graphic style of a film like Sin City, or to show on Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn how the line is delivered (voice tone, facial expression, ambiance, etc.). I think it would significantly add to an article about a movie line, to show the line itself being delivered, no?
The same kind of thing is done with numerous images or short audio clips (e.g. a screenshot to show the ambiance of Sin City, an extract of "I Have a Dream" to show King's voice and intonation, an extract of "We Are the World" to show its musical structure), and they generally add really useful information to the article; but I've never seen it done with a video clip, is there a specificity about video that prevents to do the same? Was there a consensus to try to avoid non-free videos on Wikipedia? Wouldn't that be useful? Or is it simply that nobody did it yet, but we can?
I haven't found a precise recommandation about that; Wikipedia:Non-free content #Unacceptable use simply says that "a short video excerpt from a contemporary film, without sourced commentary in the accompanying text" would be unacceptable use.
Thanks for your help! - Cos-fr (talk) 11:46, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
- For examples, there are File:Janeway's exit in Tuvix (reduced).theora.ogv for GA Tuvix, and File:Dredd (film) - Visual Effects.ogv for FA Dredd. If this helps. Chris857 (talk) 16:25, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
- Video clips can be used as non-free media, but they should be as short as possible (we don't have exact advice but I would recommend no more than 30s, and trimmed to the most important portion), need to be low resolution, and encoded properly. But the use needs to be something where either the combination of video or audio, and/or the actual motion/direction is the subject of discussion of the article (and nearly always going to need sourcing to explain its importance); if the same can be done by stills, it is better to use that. Take for example Sin City - I know the movie is noted for capturing the harsh black and white world with very limit color use, but this can be done with a screen shot showing this palette; the motions aren't as critical in terms of discussion (but this is off the top of my head). In contrast, the Dredd clip is there to show the use of the slow motion effects of the drug-induced state which was discussed critically in the article.
- I'd strongly recommend avoid using this to show how movie lines were delivered, unless, like in the case of your "Frankly..." example, the line itself is notable, and been discussed a lot of times in context, so a video might be appropriate. But again, before using a video clip, make sure that it is the combination of video and audio that makes it notable or if we can get away with just audio, a still, or the like. --MASEM (t) 17:08, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with Masem's take on this... while short clips are allowed, we don't want articles to include gratuitous clips... just because we can. The clip should clearly illustrate something said in the article... and if there is a better method of illustration (a still, an audio file, etc), use that other method instead. Blueboar (talk) 17:56, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
- I'd say 30 seconds is on the long side, and to be safe you should keep it very short. -- Fuzheado | Talk 23:18, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
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- Thanks a lot for all this advice, and the existing examples (which led me to Category:Non-free video samples). Yes, I meant short clips, strictly reduced to the most relevant part, and when I mentioned movie lines I only thought about those notable enough to be heavily discussed in a dedicated article or section.
- I understand the general guideline like this: don't put gratuitous clips, i.e. use them when needed to illustrate something discussed in the article, and only use video when any "less rich" medium (still image, audio clip) wouldn't suffice to illustrate.
- I suppose that this "no gratuitous clips" limitation was more decided by the Wikipedia community (because we're writing an encyclopedia here, or other reason decided in the project; and also to minimize legal exposure hazards), than it is really required by fair use strictly speaking? I mean, for instance, if Wikipedia wanted to include for each film a short video excerpt to show what it looks like, that would be something legally feasible as fair use, right? (Disclaimer, just in case: no, I don't plan to do it. I'm just asking this theoretically, to better understand the rules regarding non-free content here.)
- Cos-fr (talk) 03:01, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
- From a true fair use standpoint, short video clips should not be any legal problem. Our issue with video clips from non-free sources is two fold:
- Accessibility - we're still working on getting it easy for video clips to be played. One should assume that not everyone yet can play them or have the bandwidth for them.
- Our free content mission, or more specifically the Foundation's Resolution that we minimize non-free use, means we should consider the least amount of non-free media that does the job. Take the Sin City case - while a video clip and a still will show off the color palette equally well, the extra content in the video part will likely be excessive. As such, the still is generally preferred over the clip.
- We're otherwise do allow clips but we just ask to consider if there are better alternatives before resorting to them. That's why you see so few of them around. --MASEM (t) 04:17, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
- From a true fair use standpoint, short video clips should not be any legal problem. Our issue with video clips from non-free sources is two fold:
- I agree with Masem's take on this... while short clips are allowed, we don't want articles to include gratuitous clips... just because we can. The clip should clearly illustrate something said in the article... and if there is a better method of illustration (a still, an audio file, etc), use that other method instead. Blueboar (talk) 17:56, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
Proposed naming convention (UK Parliament constituencies)
Advertising the proposed Wikipedia:Naming conventions (UK Parliament constituencies) here, as specified in Wikipedia:Article_titles#Proposed_naming_conventions_and_guidelines PamD 13:41, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
Primary usage for works with derivatives
Suppose you have a work, Foo, that has spawned one or more derivative works. Assume that the title "Foo" is unique enough that all significant occurrences refer to the original work or derivatives thereof. What belongs at the article "Foo": the original work, the disambiguation page, or perhaps the most famous derivative work?
A related question occurs when there are a cluster of similarly-titled works, e.g. the original work was entitled "The Adventures of Foo: A Novel", but is more commonly known as just "Foo". Other complications include when the work is part of a series or franchise with the same title, or when the work's title is also the name of a character or entity within the work.
Here are some examples I have collected. Note that in most of these examples the original work is written and the derivative work is a film, but this need not always be the case.
Examples where "Foo" contains the original work:
- Frankenstein
- The Hundred and One Dalmatians, although "101 Dalmatians" redirects to a disambiguation page
- The Hunger Games
- Oliver Twist
- Pride and Prejudice
Examples where "Foo" contains a disambiguation page:
- Little Shop of Horrors - original work's title was The Little Shop of Horrors
- One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
- Planet of the Apes
- The Wizard of Oz - original work's title was The Wonderful Wizard of Oz
Examples where "Foo" contains a derivative work instead of the original:
- Fast Times at Ridgemont High - no article exists for the original book
- Forrest Gump
- The Graduate
- Ordinary People
Other interesting examples:
- 2001: A Space Odyssey - article is about the concept (interestingly enough, the film and novel were produced in parallel so there is no single original work)
- Mary Poppins - article is about the eponymous character, not any particular work
- King Kong - article is about the monster, not the original film
- Shrek - article is about the film, not the original novel Shrek!, with a separate article about the franchise
- Star Trek - article is about the franchise, not the original series
- Star Wars - article is about the franchise, not the original film (which has since been retitled)
- Titanic - redirects to "RMS Titanic", the passenger liner about which several works with the title Titanic have been produced
This is somewhat covered by WP:PRIMARYUSAGE but I think a more specific guideline might be helpful, as this question seem to come up pretty regularly. The general policy is often difficult to apply because users have differing opinions about which work is the most well-known or significant and this often changes over time, for example a book that was once extremely popular might be now almost unknown, while a film adaptation may have become hugely popular. Thoughts? Augurar (talk) 02:18, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- Every decision here can be justified, except one (the omission of an article for the book Fast Times at Ridgemont High. ) not only justified, they actually match what I would think of first most of the time, except that for some of the ones with a disam p. the film is by far the most notable to me, tho I know the book also., Obviously, people's individual experience will differ, and cultural knowledge and fashion will change, so there is no way of doing it right. , When popularity changes, so can our handling of the title.
- But if I had to suggest a guide, I would say, that normally the original work is the primary title, unless the derivative is very much better known. For works about events (eg. Titanic, the RW event or whatever is always the primary) However, for popular media franchises in many forms, the franchise should be used when rational, because it can list all the manifestations. DGG ( talk ) 07:19, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- There are other options that are often overlooked in discussions over WP:PRIMARYUSAGE... one option is to Merge articles. Nothing says we have to have separate articles on each version of a work. There is always the option to combine our coverage into one single article that discusses all of the versions (the original work and its various derivatives)... each in its own section. Another, similar, option (good when a merged article would be overly long) is to create an "overview" article... this "overview" article would summarize the key information about all the various versions of the work (and essentially do double duty as a dab, taking the non-disambiguated title)... and would point readers to (disambiguated) articles on each of the various versions. Blueboar (talk) 15:19, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- I think that DGG and Blueboar both have excellent advice.
- I only add that my first impulse on seeing this was to see whether you're involved in WP:ANIME, because that's the usual source of disputes (e.g., a few editors insisting that "original" works must be primary, even when they are barely known and the derivative is wildly popular [so that's what our readers expect to see] and extensively discussed by reliable sources). So while this advice is excellent, and while I agree with it, in practice it is unfortunately possible that you will not be able to apply it quite as widely as it deserves. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:44, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- There are other options that are often overlooked in discussions over WP:PRIMARYUSAGE... one option is to Merge articles. Nothing says we have to have separate articles on each version of a work. There is always the option to combine our coverage into one single article that discusses all of the versions (the original work and its various derivatives)... each in its own section. Another, similar, option (good when a merged article would be overly long) is to create an "overview" article... this "overview" article would summarize the key information about all the various versions of the work (and essentially do double duty as a dab, taking the non-disambiguated title)... and would point readers to (disambiguated) articles on each of the various versions. Blueboar (talk) 15:19, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
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- I also agree in general with what Blueboar and DGG said above. One caveat: it sometimes happens that a relatively obscure real event becomes the basis of a well-known literary work. Usually the natural article titles will differ in such a case, but if they do not, the literary work might be the primary topic if the actual event is known largely through the work. DES (talk) 01:52, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
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Why are some articles removed?
What is the policy on removing articles that seem significant?
Specifically, why was an article on "Dr. Geza De Kaplany" removed, while the article on "Richard Speck" was not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.237.77 (talk) 18:51, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- I see that Geza de Kaplany was speedy deleted four years ago as an "attack page" or "negative unsourced BLP", but this appears to have been incorrect to me. There are multiple references included in the last article version that was deleted (including a whole book about this convicted murderer), just no inline citations. Looks like a good WP:DRV candidate to me. postdlf (talk) 19:05, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
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- There are not "multiple references", there is actually only one cited source, an encycloedia referenced at the end and there are no details or page numbers and so it is impossible to say what, if any, of the negative material came from it. It's a crime bio, so it is all negative. However, if someone wants to write a new article, properly referenced there there's no problem with that, and no reason an admin wouldn't e-mail them the contents of the deleted article to assist them. Review the WP:BLP policy (unless you've got cited sources saying he's dead) and go ahead. Nothing to discuss on DRV.--Scott Mac 21:09, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- You must've also missed the sentence in the article beginning "As recounted by San Francisco Chronicle reporter Carolyn Anspacher in her 1965 book, The Trial of Dr. De Kaplany..." And why is it "impossible to say what, if any" came from the cited Encyclopedia of American Crime? Presumably one would consult the printed work and look for an entry on De Kaplany in the TOC or index, really no harder than if a page number was given. Whether it would have survived AFD at the time may be another question, but this was an inappropriate speedy deletion. Now in 2014 we also have numerous Google books hits clearly about this murder case, with visible previews that verify many of the details even if we ignore the two print references for some reason in the deleted article history. postdlf (talk) 01:01, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- For negative BLPs, I think it's best we err on the side of deletion rather than keeping, in the best interests of the article's subject. The deletion at least has not caused further harm to the encyclopedia, but the article is, if what you say is true, a valid candidate for reexamination at deletion review. In which case it would probably need to be restored and userfied with NOINDEX so the rest of us non-admins can examine it. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 11:22, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- There is no need for this to go to deletion review. If someone is wanting to work on it, and ensure that all negative claims are precisely referenced, I'm willing to give them the material right now so that they can do that.--Scott Mac 14:03, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- Postdlf, you are missing the point. No one is commenting on whether the subject deserves an article - if there are sources out there then there can be an article. What there cannot be is negative information on a living person that isn't properly referenced. That's why this was speedied - and quite properly so. But there's no objection to a recreation, providing it meets the highest standards of BLP. And no, we don't undelete BLP violating material, even with a NOINDEX.--Scott Mac 15:40, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- The point is it wasn't unsourced. You didn't even notice one of the references mentioned in the article (a whole book just about the criminal trial) apparently because it was given in the body of the article, and you concededly did not consult the one you did notice that was under a "references" header because you thought it too difficult to look up (in a print encyclopedia, no less, which should have a fairly straightforward organization). The general fact of the subject's murder conviction is easily verifiable from the references given, and if individual details about the crimes proved too difficult to readily verify then those details could have been removed pending further research. It's unfortunate that this article, which is about an apparently notable subject and was actually pretty well written, was deleted without discussion four years ago and this was only now brought to light. WP:CSD#G10 is limited to negative articles that are "unsourced". This wasn't unsourced when it was deleted. As far as what BLP requires, as is consistent with policy at WP:PRESERVE, WP:BLPDEL says "Biographical material about a living individual that is not compliant with this policy should be improved and rectified; if this is not possible, then it should be removed." (emphasis added). And that's even just talking about removing bits of content from an article, not speedy deleting the whole thing. To the extent that the lack of inline citations was not BLP-compliant, this is and was easily fixable with the references given.
What's the best Wikiproject to notify to get interested editors at work on this? I'll restore it for their improvement once someone voices interest. postdlf (talk) 17:01, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- No you will not restore it, unless you want desysopped for wheel warring. There is no way in hell this is referenced adequately for a negative BLP. I'm not disputing it could be fixed, but we remove such material until it is fixed. We don't rely on eventualism for negative BLPs. I will userfy the article (blanked) and someone can rebuild it with all negative material properly referenced. I will do that as soon as someone indicates a willingness to do this. Until then it remains deleted.--Scott Mac 20:54, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
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- Scott, if an admin restores the article now they would not be wheel warring. Wheel warring is when an administrator's action is reversed by another admin, but rather than discussing the disagreement, administrator tools are then used in a combative fashion to undo or redo the action. It would only be wheel warring if an admin re-deleted it after it was restored. GB fan 00:02, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- Not with BLP. If content is removed by someone citing BLP concerns, you may not restore it without a consensus that it is safe to do so. Thus with a BLP deletion, you either need the deleting admin to agree or a DRV.--Scott Mac 10:25, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- Scott, if an admin restores the article now they would not be wheel warring. Wheel warring is when an administrator's action is reversed by another admin, but rather than discussing the disagreement, administrator tools are then used in a combative fashion to undo or redo the action. It would only be wheel warring if an admin re-deleted it after it was restored. GB fan 00:02, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
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- I kindly suggest you re-read what I wrote again, and think about how your comment could improved to be more responsive to the whole of what I said, more substantive, and more constructive. Cheers, postdlf (talk) 21:46, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- I generally deny such passive aggressive requests, can't see a reason to vary that here.--Scott Mac 22:56, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- Having looked at it just now, it's pretty gruesome so you'd want sources. The article would make no sense if the most gruesome bit was removed as that is what it is (supposedly) notable for, so as far as being on wiki and publicly accessible, it is easiest to do from scratch, however there are several ways of sending the written material to someone to work on in the meantime. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:10, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- I generally deny such passive aggressive requests, can't see a reason to vary that here.--Scott Mac 22:56, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
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- No you will not restore it, unless you want desysopped for wheel warring. There is no way in hell this is referenced adequately for a negative BLP. I'm not disputing it could be fixed, but we remove such material until it is fixed. We don't rely on eventualism for negative BLPs. I will userfy the article (blanked) and someone can rebuild it with all negative material properly referenced. I will do that as soon as someone indicates a willingness to do this. Until then it remains deleted.--Scott Mac 20:54, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- The point is it wasn't unsourced. You didn't even notice one of the references mentioned in the article (a whole book just about the criminal trial) apparently because it was given in the body of the article, and you concededly did not consult the one you did notice that was under a "references" header because you thought it too difficult to look up (in a print encyclopedia, no less, which should have a fairly straightforward organization). The general fact of the subject's murder conviction is easily verifiable from the references given, and if individual details about the crimes proved too difficult to readily verify then those details could have been removed pending further research. It's unfortunate that this article, which is about an apparently notable subject and was actually pretty well written, was deleted without discussion four years ago and this was only now brought to light. WP:CSD#G10 is limited to negative articles that are "unsourced". This wasn't unsourced when it was deleted. As far as what BLP requires, as is consistent with policy at WP:PRESERVE, WP:BLPDEL says "Biographical material about a living individual that is not compliant with this policy should be improved and rectified; if this is not possible, then it should be removed." (emphasis added). And that's even just talking about removing bits of content from an article, not speedy deleting the whole thing. To the extent that the lack of inline citations was not BLP-compliant, this is and was easily fixable with the references given.
- For negative BLPs, I think it's best we err on the side of deletion rather than keeping, in the best interests of the article's subject. The deletion at least has not caused further harm to the encyclopedia, but the article is, if what you say is true, a valid candidate for reexamination at deletion review. In which case it would probably need to be restored and userfied with NOINDEX so the rest of us non-admins can examine it. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 11:22, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- You must've also missed the sentence in the article beginning "As recounted by San Francisco Chronicle reporter Carolyn Anspacher in her 1965 book, The Trial of Dr. De Kaplany..." And why is it "impossible to say what, if any" came from the cited Encyclopedia of American Crime? Presumably one would consult the printed work and look for an entry on De Kaplany in the TOC or index, really no harder than if a page number was given. Whether it would have survived AFD at the time may be another question, but this was an inappropriate speedy deletion. Now in 2014 we also have numerous Google books hits clearly about this murder case, with visible previews that verify many of the details even if we ignore the two print references for some reason in the deleted article history. postdlf (talk) 01:01, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- There are not "multiple references", there is actually only one cited source, an encycloedia referenced at the end and there are no details or page numbers and so it is impossible to say what, if any, of the negative material came from it. It's a crime bio, so it is all negative. However, if someone wants to write a new article, properly referenced there there's no problem with that, and no reason an admin wouldn't e-mail them the contents of the deleted article to assist them. Review the WP:BLP policy (unless you've got cited sources saying he's dead) and go ahead. Nothing to discuss on DRV.--Scott Mac 21:09, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
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- PS: Yes, just looking now, I can see the book on google though not sure how extensive or limited the preview is...so let's frame this positively....we'll be most happy to make available the deleted page one way or the other once someone says they want to work on it and inline/rework the text. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:14, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
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- THanks for reviewing. Yes, I've no problem with that. Not disputing an article can be written, and not trying to deny anyone access to the deleted content to create it. --Scott Mac 23:44, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
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- PS: Yes, just looking now, I can see the book on google though not sure how extensive or limited the preview is...so let's frame this positively....we'll be most happy to make available the deleted page one way or the other once someone says they want to work on it and inline/rework the text. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:14, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
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Sooo......ummmmm, anyone wanna work on the article then? If not now, there is a category of admins who will explore ways to make deleted content appropriately available. Cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:13, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Referencing for lists of internal links
We seem to have a slight disagreement on this subject at Talk:Sports in Alaska. I recently converted what was an extremely poorly constructed article into a more comprehensive list consisting solely of internal links. As the individual articles linked to would have the actual content on this subject I deliberately removed the few refs that were attached. As a result another user tagged it as unreferenced and we've been playing "dueling policy links" since then. So what would be great would be if more users comment on the situation so that we know what, if anything, needs to be done to the article. Beeblebrox (talk) 08:20, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Policy question about article content
Can somebody help me with a phrase which is embodied within Wikipedia?
I have heard that it is the goal of wikipedia that articles should be able to reach the general public.
Does anyone know one place where this policy is stated online? Thanks! --HowiAuckland (talk) 19:25, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- Are you looking for WP:MTAA? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:51, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- I would ask what you mean by "reach the general public". Do you mean be written in a manner that can be understood by the general public or are you asking about the distribution of content to the general public? Wikipedia is free, but you do have to have some sort of internet access to use it, although there was the Wikipedia CD Selection some years back as well that was intended for use in schools. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)