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Planet of the Apes (novel)
Per a discussion at Talk:Planet of the Apes (novel)#EL regarding a link that was removed after nearly three years on the Planet of the Apes (novel) article. I only want to restore the link to the site, not reuse the images on Wikipedia. This is how the EL appeared:
La Planète des singes at The Sacred Scrolls - History of the novel's international editions with book cover images.
The book cover images are obviously accurate and very useful to people interested in the Planet of the Apes novel's history. When I first saw The Sacred Scrolls page it answered questions I had about the book's different title Monkey Planet in the UK, for example. WP:ELBURDEN says Every link provided must be justifiable in the opinion of the editors for an article. I've been maintaining the article for nearly two years, and I found The Sacred Scrolls site to be very useful in ways WP cannot. We obviously cannot post dozens of book cover images on a WP page. The Sacred Scrolls is the main "go to" site for people interested in the Planet of the Apes series. Removing it on the issue that the page enables copyright infringement is not appropriate, as this was resolved at WP:Media copyright questions/Archive/2013/March#External link copyright issue. It is not covered under WP:ELNEVER. WP:ELNO says one should generally avoid a list of certain EL types. Even if The Sacred Scrolls site meets one of those types, "generally avoid" does not mean in every case. The copyright has been cleared so there isn't a policy reason to keep the link out, we just need the intention behind ELNO#12 elaborated on. - Gothicfilm (talk) 18:23, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
- Consensus has determined that open wikis that do not have a significant number of editors do not make appropriate external links, and this is reflected by WP:ELNO #12. This wiki's recent changes shows that there are no active editors, aside from a small handful that make a few edits every week or so, but as of writing this, no named accounts have edited the wiki in over a week. Open wikis are subject to vandalism and inaccurate edits, and without an active community of editors there's no guarantee of such things being noticed and corrected, which means that Wikipedia should not be linking to it. Even looking through the archives of this noticeboard, there are indidents of wikis that are more active than this one that editors have determined have an insignificant number of editors. Even if the number of recent editors are ignored and just the raw Special:ListUsers is taken into consideration, in the ~7 years this wiki has existed, only 166 editors have made any edits. Compare that to other wikis even on the same wikia domain, most wikis that are actually linked from Wikipedia have tens of thousands of editors on their Special:ListUsers page, and hundreds of edits every single day from dozens of editors. These wikis have an active community with content quality control and that quickly spots and reverts vandalism within minutes, and this one cannot make that claim. Adding a few images to the bottom of the page does not make it a unique resource because (1) those images are nowhere near the focus of that article, and (2) it is not a unique resource because those same images can be found all over the internet, hardly unique. - SudoGhost 00:02, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
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- Let's see you back that up. Show me one other site where all those dozens of international book cover editions can be seen in one place, well organized. Or show me where you can see all of them spread out over different sites, which would be nowhere near as useful. And I know of at least two editors who will be watching The Sacred Scrolls and reverting any vandalism. There hasn't been much in the past, so there wasn't much call for revert activity. It's been a stable site, as was demonstrated at Talk:Planet of the Apes (novel)#EL. Future unreverted vandalism at The Sacred Scrolls is not a legitimate concern. ELNO #12 does not define a required number of editors. - Gothicfilm (talk) 02:53, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- "WP:ELNO #12 does not define a required number of editors" is a red herring that nobody ever suggested, so what point were you trying to make? This wiki has no editing community, and that's critical for the reasons given above. When your defense is that Wikipedia editors will be cleaning up an external wiki, which didn't happen until it was pointed out on the talk page, that should show you something; the wiki should be able to keep its content in check. When an external site has to do it for them, that's a huge red flag, in addition to the other reasons given. On the subject of the images, a simple Google search shows each and every book cover there, and it looks like that wiki just did what I did, used a Google search, and saved the results and put them on their site. This is supposed to make the site unique somehow? - SudoGhost 12:13, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- A huge red flag? In your opinion. You say the site is in danger of vandalism, even though it has little history of such, and when that concern is answered you don't like how unlikely future vandalism might be dealt with. All that matters is that it gets dealt with. And a Google search is not a good replacement for a well-organized site. - Gothicfilm (talk) 15:27, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- Unless you can get WP:ELNO #12 changed, the opinion that "future vandalism" might be dealt with is irrelevant, since that's not the concern nor it is why the link does not belong. It's not an issue of not liking it, it's that what hypothetically happens in the future is not a reason to include a link. WP:ELNO does not give that provision, because that amounts to WP:CRYSTAL and neatly avoids the concerns that were brought up. Google-search results on a website also does not make it unique, so it also fails WP:ELNO #1. - SudoGhost 15:37, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- Google-search results on a website? What's your evidence of that? Search results for images are not well organized. - Gothicfilm (talk) 16:07, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- The fact that every single image can be easily found through a quick Google search means the site is not unique, the criteria is not "well-organized". - SudoGhost 19:27, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- In your opinion. It is certainly better organized than a search result for images. - Gothicfilm (talk) 01:30, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
- The fact that every single image can be easily found through a quick Google search means the site is not unique, the criteria is not "well-organized". - SudoGhost 19:27, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- Google-search results on a website? What's your evidence of that? Search results for images are not well organized. - Gothicfilm (talk) 16:07, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- Unless you can get WP:ELNO #12 changed, the opinion that "future vandalism" might be dealt with is irrelevant, since that's not the concern nor it is why the link does not belong. It's not an issue of not liking it, it's that what hypothetically happens in the future is not a reason to include a link. WP:ELNO does not give that provision, because that amounts to WP:CRYSTAL and neatly avoids the concerns that were brought up. Google-search results on a website also does not make it unique, so it also fails WP:ELNO #1. - SudoGhost 15:37, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- A huge red flag? In your opinion. You say the site is in danger of vandalism, even though it has little history of such, and when that concern is answered you don't like how unlikely future vandalism might be dealt with. All that matters is that it gets dealt with. And a Google search is not a good replacement for a well-organized site. - Gothicfilm (talk) 15:27, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- "WP:ELNO #12 does not define a required number of editors" is a red herring that nobody ever suggested, so what point were you trying to make? This wiki has no editing community, and that's critical for the reasons given above. When your defense is that Wikipedia editors will be cleaning up an external wiki, which didn't happen until it was pointed out on the talk page, that should show you something; the wiki should be able to keep its content in check. When an external site has to do it for them, that's a huge red flag, in addition to the other reasons given. On the subject of the images, a simple Google search shows each and every book cover there, and it looks like that wiki just did what I did, used a Google search, and saved the results and put them on their site. This is supposed to make the site unique somehow? - SudoGhost 12:13, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- Let's see you back that up. Show me one other site where all those dozens of international book cover editions can be seen in one place, well organized. Or show me where you can see all of them spread out over different sites, which would be nowhere near as useful. And I know of at least two editors who will be watching The Sacred Scrolls and reverting any vandalism. There hasn't been much in the past, so there wasn't much call for revert activity. It's been a stable site, as was demonstrated at Talk:Planet of the Apes (novel)#EL. Future unreverted vandalism at The Sacred Scrolls is not a legitimate concern. ELNO #12 does not define a required number of editors. - Gothicfilm (talk) 02:53, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- Support I'm only going to quickly recap my comments at the article, since I have no desire to repeat everything I've already written. Three points were raised in opposition to the link, although I only opposed it on one: WP:ELNEVER. The copyright issue was addressed as detailed above, so I no longer have a problem with its inclusion in the article.
- WP:ELNO#1 – Opposition to the site has been that the page in itself does not constitute "a unique resource". The criteria however applies to the site, not uniquely to a page on the site. The site hosts over 1600 pages of content which provides substantial coverage of the topic. It's my conclusion the site is a unique resource, in that it provides substantial coverage that we don't provide, and are likely to never provide, so linking to the site is justifiable in this regard, and a link to this page inparticular seems reasonable.
- WP:ELNO#12 – The interpretation of this guideline has proven contentious due to the ambiguous nature of the language. How is one supposed to interpret a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors? In one sense it's a drop in the ocean compared to the Star Wars open wiki, in another it easily surpasses the number we ask for when establishing a Wikiproject. Personally I think a raw number is somewhat arbitrary—a hundred editors can be more productive than a thousand depending on their commitment. Maybe the best way of looking at this is whatever it takes to create a substantial amount of content, which appears to be the case here.
- At the end of the day, it wouldn't hurt the article if the link weren't present, but it does provide readers with another research avenue if they don't find the information they are looking for on Wikipedia. Betty Logan (talk) 03:12, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
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- That sort of rationale renders the entirety of WP:ELNO #12 moot then. Consensus has determined that insignificant editing community means that an external link is inappropriate. That does not somehow mean that "there's no bright line number, so we can safely ignore a community consensus-established requirement". I have looked, and I cannot find a single instance of an external link being appropriate with such few editors, in fact wikis that have a lot more editors have still been shown to be insufficient in terms of WP:ELNO #12. If nobody editing is somehow still significant, what could possibly be insignificant? The external link fails WP:ELNO #12, and only weak protestations have been given in response saying "well it's a vague guideline so let's ignore it". In that case, WP:CONLIMITED would apply and the external link would be removed anyways, since the larger consensus addresses something, and that reasoning has panned out here, any consensus which would purposely ignore that issue would be superseded by the relevant guideline. A WikiProject is not an external link, so that's a horrible example, and has nothing to do with WP:ELNO #12 in any capacity. You asked how you're supposed to interpret a substantial number? Well for starters, the wiki's RecentChanges should have someting other than two edits from IPs, one of which is vandalism. That you are unsure how to interpret a consensus-established rule doesn't mean it can be ignored, because by all measures this wiki falls short. - SudoGhost 12:00, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- Support inclusion of the link. Along with Betty's summation of WP:ELNO#12 WP:IAR would certainly apply when all of the covers are available at one site. Far better one site than creating a linkfarm to numerous sites. MarnetteD | Talk 07:02, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- Support As has been stated above, the site does provide a unique resource beyond what is available here as required by WP:ELNO #1. In regard to WP:ELNO #12, while the concern of future vandalism is legitimate there is no evidence of any history of vandalism on this site. In fact, even the few incidents that strangely occured in the last few days were quickly reverted. So the site does have a history of stablity as required by WP:ELNO #12. Of course, if at some time in the future that is no longer the case, the link can be removed from the page here at that time. Finally, I agree that WP:IAR applies. The link does improve and enhance the article here. SonOfThornhill (talk) 14:36, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
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- See Wikipedia:What "Ignore all rules" means#What "Ignore all rules" does not mean. The site is neither unique (even a Google search can replicate the images, and that appears to be where the images came from), nor does it have an active community, and the raw number of editors isn't significant in the first place. "No history of vandalism" is not a requirement, a history of stability is required in addition to having a significant number of editors. Nobody has edited the wiki in over a week; obscurity and stagnation is not the same as stability, since the reason for that requirement is an assurance that vandalism will be quickly dealt with, and that has not been shown. - SudoGhost 14:46, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
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- What "Ignore all rules" means is an essay, not policy. You keep repeating the same opinions over and over. Soon this page will be as expansive as the article's Talk page. - Gothicfilm (talk) 16:22, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- ...and yet what it says is true, WP:IAR is a policy...but isn't being used correctly here. You also keep repeating the same comments over and over, yet yours lack any explanation as to how it meets WP:ELNO #12 other than saying it's a vague thing, and therefore can somehow be ignored. - SudoGhost 19:27, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- That was responded to above and below. We're not obligated to follow your opinion of what is correct use of policy. And I'm not writing out paragraphs of the same thing repeatedly. - Gothicfilm (talk) 01:30, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
- A diff supporting that assertion would help your case, because it is not "my opinion"; I did not decide that WP:IAR should specifically point out that essay, that was the result of countless editors and discussion because WP:IAR is often cited inappropriately. You don't have to "follow my opinion" because it's not my opinion, it's Wikipedia's consensus-formed opinion. - SudoGhost 03:20, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
- That was responded to above and below. We're not obligated to follow your opinion of what is correct use of policy. And I'm not writing out paragraphs of the same thing repeatedly. - Gothicfilm (talk) 01:30, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
- ...and yet what it says is true, WP:IAR is a policy...but isn't being used correctly here. You also keep repeating the same comments over and over, yet yours lack any explanation as to how it meets WP:ELNO #12 other than saying it's a vague thing, and therefore can somehow be ignored. - SudoGhost 19:27, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- What "Ignore all rules" means is an essay, not policy. You keep repeating the same opinions over and over. Soon this page will be as expansive as the article's Talk page. - Gothicfilm (talk) 16:22, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think it belongs. Wikia is an open Wiki with little or no editorial control exercised over its contents. However good a page looks, it is likely to be original research and of little or no value. We should not be linking to it. --Biker Biker (talk) 14:59, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
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- It has been demonstrated how the site is useful and valuable to readers who are interested in the article's subject. And I also agree that WP:IAR applies. The link does improve and enhance the article as a starting point for research. - Gothicfilm (talk) 16:30, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- Weak support. I can see merit in the arguments of both sides here. I'd almost always avoid placing such an external link in an article myself, and I fear the slippery slope that could lead from acceptance of such links. However, WP:ELNO is a guideline, not a policy, and as such its "bright lines" really aren't all that bright and can be overridden by WP:IAR fairly easily: all that should be required is someone making a reasonable case that the link provides a uniquely useful resource for our readers (that case was made) and that it's unlikely to do any harm (that case was made, too). I don't like it, but that's neither here nor there. Rivertorch (talk) 17:18, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
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- Be careful with saying "WP:ELNO is a guideline, not a policy", that suggests that only policies should be followed. Being a guideline doesn't mean it can be ignored when inconvenient, guidelines must be followed unless a good reason is given to ignore it. WP:N is a guideline, and WP:AFD shows that a guideline is not something that can be ignored just because a given thing is "unique" or "useful". Not to mention that in this case, "unique" is demonstrably false, it's not unique if the images can be found elsewhere, especially when the images are nowhere near the focus of that site, and are only found buried deep in the page after a bit of searching. - SudoGhost 19:37, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
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- A bit of searching? One has only to scroll down the page, and at least five here found it useful despite that hardship. "Unique" is not demonstrably false because of a Google search - you could obviously say that about anything on the web. And the most important rule is WP:Consensus. - Gothicfilm (talk) 01:40, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
- I really truly do not see how something is unique if it also exists elsewhere, that goes against the very definition of the word unique. You could indeed "obviously" say that most images on the web are not unique, and that is why images aren't convincing factors in determining if a resource is unique, especially a wiki that took the images from elsewhere on the internet. - SudoGhost 03:20, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
- A bit of searching? One has only to scroll down the page, and at least five here found it useful despite that hardship. "Unique" is not demonstrably false because of a Google search - you could obviously say that about anything on the web. And the most important rule is WP:Consensus. - Gothicfilm (talk) 01:40, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
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- No further comment after two and a half days. Five support restoring the link to the site. Two are against it. I think this process is done. Thanks to those who contributed. - Gothicfilm (talk) 16:04, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
- "Useful and unique" seems to be the consensus here, but that's only half the issue. Nobody has even tried to argue that the number of editors on the wiki is substantial, only that WP:ELNO #12 is too vague or should be ignored. A small group of editors, however, cannot decide that WP:ELNO #12 can be ignored or that it does not apply; the wider community consensus would supersede that, and that is policy. - SudoGhost 03:20, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
- I'd suggest an RfC at this point. I consider the consensus shaky, and SudoGhost makes a valid point about local consensus. Rivertorch (talk) 07:50, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
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- Betty, MarnetteD and SonOfThornhill all addressed WP:ELNO #12 in their Support statement. And I agree with the position that it is met - the site is useful and valuable to readers who are interested in the article's subject. I posted a request asking for more comments at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Novels. - Gothicfilm (talk) 05:22, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
- It would be most helpful if you made your notifications neutral, as required by WP:CANVASS. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:05, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
- The notification I posted briefly explains why this discussion is still going on. Those who see it can judge for themselves. - Gothicfilm (talk) 13:37, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
- It would be most helpful if you made your notifications neutral, as required by WP:CANVASS. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:05, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
- Betty, MarnetteD and SonOfThornhill all addressed WP:ELNO #12 in their Support statement. And I agree with the position that it is met - the site is useful and valuable to readers who are interested in the article's subject. I posted a request asking for more comments at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Novels. - Gothicfilm (talk) 05:22, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose link: a further reading source has been added that includes the cover images supplied by the site as well as additional information. This disproves the "unique resource" hypothesis. Furthermore, because open wikis are inherently unreliable, having a reliable source for such information is far preferable. Finally, a wiki with fewer than 30 active editors cannot be said to meet the "substantial number" clause of ELNO#12. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:05, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
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- It has well over 30 editors, but I'll leave that to the others who have debated that point on the Talk page. ELNO #12 does not define a required number of editors. Your book to be used as a further reading source does not include all the cover images supplied by the site. And an offline source is obviously not very useful for most online readers. Now that Betty Logan has added a Google preview link I can see some of it, but I only get a limited number of views and the page it's supposed to directly jump to, 269, does not display. Instead a msg says the page is unavailable for viewing. I can see that page 270 has 12 black-and-white cover images. That is not comprehensive, nor is it better than the dozens of color images of covers that can be seen at The Sacred Scrolls site. You have not demonstrated the site is inaccurate either, if anything this book backs up its accuracy. Though note the book describes itself as "unauthorized", and it's out of date, being published in 2008, three years before Rise of the Planet of the Apes. - Gothicfilm (talk) 14:09, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
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- It should be noted that The Sacred Scrolls site has over 40 cover images in full color vs. the dozen black & white cover images available in the Timeline book. Plus each of the covers on the The Sacred Scrolls site can be clicked on individually by the user for a larger detailed view of each cover. This is not true of the Timeline book preview link. This does make the The Sacred Scrolls site a unique resource for users. SonOfThornhill (talk) 14:26, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
- It should be noted that the book has over 350 cover images, most in full colour and detail - judging the book by a single page is a poor choice. Open wikis are inherently unreliable (and "unauthorized" too); books from identified authors are not. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:13, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry but that is just not so. Much more than a single page can be viewed in the link Betty provided, the cover images are not in color, they are all in black and white. Most of the 350 covers provided are not for the original novel by Pierre Boulle but for novelizations, comic books, home video, etc. The book is a good reference and should be included on the page but it is not a good replacement for The Sacred Scrolls site. SonOfThornhill (talk) 15:52, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
- It should be noted that the book has over 350 cover images, most in full colour and detail - judging the book by a single page is a poor choice. Open wikis are inherently unreliable (and "unauthorized" too); books from identified authors are not. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:13, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
- It should be noted that The Sacred Scrolls site has over 40 cover images in full color vs. the dozen black & white cover images available in the Timeline book. Plus each of the covers on the The Sacred Scrolls site can be clicked on individually by the user for a larger detailed view of each cover. This is not true of the Timeline book preview link. This does make the The Sacred Scrolls site a unique resource for users. SonOfThornhill (talk) 14:26, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
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- The book sounds great for the further reading section. Not so good as an EL. Accessibility is the main issue with this book. I saw the whole thing that's available online - many pages, but the covers are only seen together on that one page in black-and-white thumbnails. It has some thumbnail covers here and there on other pages. Only this book's cover itself is in color. The Sacred Scrolls has dozens more of the original novel's international editions well organized, in color, and easily accessible for online users. And you can click on them individually for a larger detailed view, as SonOfThornhill explained above. - Gothicfilm (talk) 16:00, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
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I don't have an opinion, because I haven't looked at the link or the page. I can answer the question above about "How is one supposed to interpret a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors?"
Generally speaking, the goal is enough active editors that if most of them quit, there would still be many available to catch vandalism on the page that we link to. This means that we need to have enough editors on both an absolute and a relative scale.
- In terms of the absolute number of editors, 10 editors making a change each day (or at least most days) is normally the minimum. IPs count, if the wiki allows them. More than 100 different contributors per day is always sufficient on this score.
- In terms of the relative number of editors, you need enough people-per-page that you can be reasonably sure that every page is being watched. There's no set ratio, but use your common sense here. 100 editors a day is obviously enough to keep track of changes on 100 pages, but obviously not enough for 100,000 pages. You might also consider whether the specific page that we're looking at is likely to be heavily watched.
- In terms of history, we expect the wiki to have been running for a couple of years, and to generally have had an acceptable number of editors throughout. We wouldn't want to accept a site based on activity during an unusual spike of popularity. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:26, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
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- The Sacred Scrolls is not like WP where a registered user needs to check their Watchlist, and it only shows activity on pages they've edited themselves or added to their list. If anyone looks at any page on the Sacred Scrolls site, they are shown a Recent Wiki Activity box on the right side of the page. It lists the last few pages on the whole site that have been changed. They can then easily click on any page listed there. The See more link there and the Wiki Activity link at the top of every page gives all activity going back weeks. Multitudes of people could be routinely making sure there's no vandalism, and as long as there isn't any, their watchfulness would not be registered as activity. So it's not necessary for hundreds of editors to be making changes everyday. Just one person checking any page can easily discover if there's been any vandalism anywhere on the site. And the site's history shows there's been very little. Its stability should not be held against it. There's no reason why a site like this should be getting updated every day. The original series is more than 40 years old. The original novel we're discussing here is 50 years old. - Gothicfilm (talk) 00:36, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
- It's "stability" isn't being held against it, it's the fact that there is no activity or editors making any edits, and that's what WP:ELNO #12 is looking for. We can't speculate on if someone is or is not looking at a site to ensure that it isn't being vandalized, it has to be shown that if vandalism were to occur, it would be dealt with. This is done by ensuring that there are editors around to check for those sort of things and showing a history of stability. When a wiki's RecentChanges only shows 5 edits within the last seven days, all from IP editors and two of them involving vandalism, that's not a case for "a substantial number of editors"; it would be difficult to find a wiki with fewer edits than that, so that's far from substantial. - SudoGhost 06:09, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
- The Sacred Scrolls is not like WP where a registered user needs to check their Watchlist, and it only shows activity on pages they've edited themselves or added to their list. If anyone looks at any page on the Sacred Scrolls site, they are shown a Recent Wiki Activity box on the right side of the page. It lists the last few pages on the whole site that have been changed. They can then easily click on any page listed there. The See more link there and the Wiki Activity link at the top of every page gives all activity going back weeks. Multitudes of people could be routinely making sure there's no vandalism, and as long as there isn't any, their watchfulness would not be registered as activity. So it's not necessary for hundreds of editors to be making changes everyday. Just one person checking any page can easily discover if there's been any vandalism anywhere on the site. And the site's history shows there's been very little. Its stability should not be held against it. There's no reason why a site like this should be getting updated every day. The original series is more than 40 years old. The original novel we're discussing here is 50 years old. - Gothicfilm (talk) 00:36, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
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- So you're admitting the site is stable, and when there is vandalism, it's dealt with. That is all that matters. - Gothicfilm (talk) 08:21, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
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Consensus is that the La Planète des singes at The Sacred Scrolls external link is appropriate for the Planet of the Apes (novel) article. -- Jreferee (talk) 07:42, 7 April 2013 (UTC)}}
- Welcome to ELN, Jreferee. It is not customary at this noticeboard to mark anything as resolved, and it is definitely not customary to do so while people are actively discussing it. You are doubtless not familiar with the entire guideline on external links, so I'll add that the rule is that contested links are always removed unless and until consensus emerges per WP:ELBURDEN. The standard for consensus is quite high for external links, because links are assumed to be relatively low-value for an encyclopedia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:47, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
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- What do you mean by this discussion should remain open until the participants are satisfied? Certain editors will never be satisfied. More people are for including the link than are against it. Six, if you include Jreferee, five if you don't. It should be noted Jreferee, an administrator, twice tried to close this discussion, with the summary Closed as particular external link is appropriate. This discussion has now become quite lengthy, with the same points made repeatedly. Five or six may not be a landslide, but it is a majority. That's consensus. If the standard was everyone has to be satisfied, nothing would be brought to a conclusion. The link is useful. It was there for nearly three years and no harm came from it. It should be restored per consensus. - Gothicfilm (talk) 18:12, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
- Wikipedia does not operate by "votes". Majority, especially a weak claim to majority, does not equal consensus, especially when (1) part of the "consensus" was to ignore a larger consensus, which according to Wikipedia policy cannot occur, and (2) yet another source has been given that shows that the resource is not unique, which means that the discussion that it was "unique" needs to be reexamined, since the basis for that conclusion is no longer true, and (3) a consensus that the resource is "unique", even if that occurred, does not mean the link belongs, because unique is not the only concern brought by WP:ELNO. - SudoGhost 18:59, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
- What do you mean by this discussion should remain open until the participants are satisfied? Certain editors will never be satisfied. More people are for including the link than are against it. Six, if you include Jreferee, five if you don't. It should be noted Jreferee, an administrator, twice tried to close this discussion, with the summary Closed as particular external link is appropriate. This discussion has now become quite lengthy, with the same points made repeatedly. Five or six may not be a landslide, but it is a majority. That's consensus. If the standard was everyone has to be satisfied, nothing would be brought to a conclusion. The link is useful. It was there for nearly three years and no harm came from it. It should be restored per consensus. - Gothicfilm (talk) 18:12, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
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- It has been re-examined, and the two people here who care about the subject have shown the offline book is not a suitable replacement for the EL. Since being on WP I've been lead to believe that WP:Consensus is the most important policy. You are trying to overcome it with all the above. People voted to include the link despite your concerns. That should be the end of it, but no, like others I've come across you refuse to acknowledge consensus, move the goalposts and try to draw the process out endlessly. You're trying to set up a new debate because you know people don't want to come back and vote over again on what's really the same thing - whether to include the EL. - Gothicfilm (talk) 19:27, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
- If WP:Consensus is the most important policy, WP:CONLIMITED is part of that policy. That people "vote" to include the link despite WP:ELNO doesn't mean it warrants inclusion, per the policy you believe is most important. You have argued that an offline book, which oddly enough I can view online, is "not suitable", but that's hardly an argument that the wiki is unique, and that's also not a consensus, especially since "unique" is far from the only criteria which is preventing it from being included. - SudoGhost 20:34, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
- It has been re-examined, and the two people here who care about the subject have shown the offline book is not a suitable replacement for the EL. Since being on WP I've been lead to believe that WP:Consensus is the most important policy. You are trying to overcome it with all the above. People voted to include the link despite your concerns. That should be the end of it, but no, like others I've come across you refuse to acknowledge consensus, move the goalposts and try to draw the process out endlessly. You're trying to set up a new debate because you know people don't want to come back and vote over again on what's really the same thing - whether to include the EL. - Gothicfilm (talk) 19:27, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
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- WP:CONLIMITED is about changing policy. We're not doing that. WP:ELNO says one should generally avoid a list of certain EL types. Even if The Sacred Scrolls site meets one of those types, "generally avoid" does not mean in every case. So your claim we're definitively going against some important rule is not true. The rule itself allows exceptions, and the consensus here fits in that exception. Anybody losing at consensus can come back with more arguments claiming they're right and consensus should be ignored. And I explained above you cannot see the whole book with that Google preview link, and you only get a limited number of views with it. Even if it was as accessible, it's not as comprehensive as The Sacred Scrolls. I've already explained this, but you love repetition. - Gothicfilm (talk) 21:41, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
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- CONLIMITED is not about changing policy pages. It is also particularly relevant, because the long-standing, community-wide consensus (as documented at ELBURDEN) is that disputed links are removed, even if a majority of editors at an article are in favor of the link.
- You have the option of continuing to discuss it here, or you can proceed to other forms of dispute resolution, such as an RFC on the article's talk page. Given that ELBURDEN clearly defaults against this disputed link, I recommend that the supporters of this link think about how to win friends and influence people, no matter which process they choose to engage in. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:50, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
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- It's already been discussed extensively on the article's talk page. WP:ELBURDEN does not clearly default against this link - it says Every link provided must be justifiable in the opinion of the editors for an article. Disputes about links can be addressed through the normal dispute-resolution process, particularly at the external links noticeboard. Disputed links should normally be excluded by default unless and until there is a consensus to include them. We did that, and got consensus to restore the link. - Gothicfilm (talk) 22:13, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
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- I have to concur with Gothicfilm here. This issue has been discussed for over two weeks now. Most of those involved in the discussion here and on the article's talk page support restoring the link. And I say restoring because the link was included for years until just a few weeks ago. At this point, all the arguments for and against restoring the link have been made and most have supported restoring it.SonOfThornhill (talk) 00:46, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
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- A few people agreed that it was unique and should be included on that criteria; larger Wikipedia consensus is that open wikis are held to a certain criteria that this wiki does not meet. Unless a consensus determines that this wiki meets WP:ELNO #12, WP:ELBURDEN does indeed apply here. As has been said numerous times, how long it takes for someone to notice an external link does not give it some immunity to the consensus formed at WP:ELBURDEN. There's no consensus to restore the link, there's an arguable weak consensus that it is even unique, but it seems like the "unique" aspect is being focused on because it cannot meet WP:ELNO #12. - SudoGhost 02:54, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
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If you still have people disputing the link, then you don't really have consensus (a word that means "agreement", not "majority"). WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:23, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
- That is not policy. I've been here a little while, and I know how consensus works. That is not it. Not when you're dealing with certain editors who believe they're right and will never back down. Majority has to rule, and it does. That is policy. I showed above how you misstated WP:ELBURDEN (as can be seen with this dif). So far you haven't answered that. Instead you come back with this general statement about the word consensus? That is not policy. WP:Consensus says Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity (which, although an ideal result, is not always achievable). - Gothicfilm (talk) 19:52, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
- ...and there is no consensus that this link meets the criteria that the larger consensus has determined it must meet. You did not "show above" anything other than your opinion, and your opinion is contradicted by WP:ELNO and WP:CONLIMITED, even if there were a consensus to include the link on "unique" ground, which there is not. As an aside, "majority has to rule" is not policy by any means. What the policy says is that "The quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view" so I don't know where "majority has to rule" came from. - SudoGhost 03:14, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
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- Yes there is a consensus among most of the editors who have reviewed this link. They have concluded that the link meets the criteria of both WP:ELNO #1 & #12 and that WP:IAR applies as well. And as stated by GothicFilm above, Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity. It should also be noted that according to WP:FIVEPILLARS, Wikipedia has policies and guidelines, but they are not carved in stone; their content and interpretation can evolve over time. Their principles and spirit matter more than their literal wording, and sometimes improving Wikipedia requires making an exception. SonOfThornhill (talk) 16:43, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
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- That's wishful thinking; there is no consensus that the wiki meets WP:ELNO #12, and there are few editors that even addressed the subject other than to say "we should ignore that one"; WP:IAR doesn't apply in the way you're suggesting, otherwise I could just as easily say that I'm removing the link per WP:IAR. If you believe that the "interpretation has evolved", then as has been suggested numerous times now, you're welcome to open a discussion at Wikipedia talk:External links and see if consensus has changed. - SudoGhost 19:34, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
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- ...and there is no consensus that this link meets the criteria that the larger consensus has determined it must meet. You did not "show above" anything other than your opinion, and your opinion is contradicted by WP:ELNO and WP:CONLIMITED, even if there were a consensus to include the link on "unique" ground, which there is not. As an aside, "majority has to rule" is not policy by any means. What the policy says is that "The quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view" so I don't know where "majority has to rule" came from. - SudoGhost 03:14, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
- I'm an admin on the Sacred Scrolls site in question. I'll try to clarify a few points here, purely so that you might be able to bring this to a conclusion. I know from being involved in a number of groups and online forums over the past decade that the number of Planet of the Apes fans worldwide - or at least those willing to get involved in anything online - is a tiny fraction of virtually all major sci-fi franchises, and this is reflected in the numbers of editors contributing to the Sacred Scrolls. It's pathetic when compared to the likes of Star Wars or Doctor Who, etc. And that was the main reason I got involved in the wiki in the first place - to help make this material, the facts and figures, more accessible and hopefully to generate interest. I have functioned as the site's main admin for 3 or 4 years now and I check recent changes on a daily basis (unless in exceptional circumstances), and make any corrections necessary. Of the top of my head, I can think of a prolonged attack of spam vandalism aimed at the site in the early months of this year, which was repaired on a daily basis, and also an unusual spate of vandalism over the last few days which, again, has been noticed and repaired quickly. I have gone to great effort to ensure that the site is as accurate and as unbiased as it can be, and I believe it now serves a useful purpose in presenting reliable facts on the subject. The alternative link which has been recently added to the Wikipedia article is to the excellent timeline book by Rich Handley - it may be significant that Rich himself is a named editor on the Sacred Scrolls (though under a pseudonym) and has praised the accuracy of the wiki on his blog and in print many times. He also invited me to serve as a proof-reader and fact-checker on his follow-up Planet of the Apes encyclopedia, because of my involvement with the wiki site. Consequently, I understand only too well the need for Wikipedia to refer only to safe and dependable sources. All I can add is that I believe the Sacred Scroll's content to be reliable, but having written much of it myself it's probably better if I leave that for others to decide. I'll answer any further questions anyone might have about the administration of the site, but I have no wish to get bogged down in a lengthy discussion about the definition of the guidelines. If you feel it doesn't meet the standards for a link from Wikipedia then so be it. - MagicManky (talk) 04:17, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
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- Thanks for giving this background on the The Sacred Scrolls site, and for your work on it. This thread will be archived sooner or later, and I believe your input should be seen at the novel's Talk page, so hopefully you won't mind me posting a copy of it there: Talk:Planet of the Apes (novel)#The Sacred Scrolls background. - Gothicfilm (talk) 19:22, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
RfC now posted
Others can comment at Talk:Planet of the Apes (novel)#RfC: The Sacred Scrolls external link. - Gothicfilm (talk) 23:35, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Inspire (magazine)
A recent email to OTRS questioned whether the external links are appropriate. I took the view that they were not per WP:EL and removed them. My edit was reverted, so I am seeking further comment. Thanks.--ukexpat (talk) 18:28, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
- I think WP:ELNO #3 might be a concern. I'm still searching around, but possession of that magazine appears to be illegal in Great Britain at least. I don't know if that is also the case in the State of Florida, or how that discrepancy would be handled, but I think it's a good idea to remove the links until the concerns with the links are resolved, per WP:ELBURDEN. - SudoGhost 18:43, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
- God bless Great Britain and freedom of inquiry. My concerns center on WP:ELNO #s 2, 11, and 19. More specifically, It may not be feasible to determine who is controlling a WordPress blog. If there were an official web site, that would be something else again, but that's not the case here. Rivertorch (talk) 19:52, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not suggesting that it being illegal is a good thing, or that Great Britain's laws concerning information is the same as Florida's, but I undid the edit to err on the side of caution. I agree that the WordPress blog part isn't much of a reliable source (and I don't know if that's a copyright violation or not). - SudoGhost 21:47, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, I think you were correct in removing the links. Rivertorch (talk) 05:33, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not suggesting that it being illegal is a good thing, or that Great Britain's laws concerning information is the same as Florida's, but I undid the edit to err on the side of caution. I agree that the WordPress blog part isn't much of a reliable source (and I don't know if that's a copyright violation or not). - SudoGhost 21:47, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
- Support the removal of the links, for the reasons stated.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:49, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose removal of links. (1) WP:CENSOR. (2) These links are important for classic free speech reasons. They give us a way of understanding the minds of people who are called "terrorists." Without direct information about them, we are just speculating and accepting the allegations of supposed "experts," who are frequently wrong. How do you know they're so wrong and evil if you haven't read their own words? (3) No one has offered any evidence that possessing these documents is illegal in Florida or anywhere else in the U.S. It's not. The First Amendment protections in the U.S. are very strong. Making these documents illegal would be prior restraint. A lot of Wikipedia content is illegal elsewhere in the world, and we don't remove it. For example, German laws protect the privacy of convicted criminals. British copyright laws protect historical paintings. (4) There are many cases in U.S. law allowing people to publish instructions on harming people. Online U.S. military manuals give much more detailed bomb-making instruction than this. Palladin Press publishes bomb-making instructions. The Anarchist's Cookbook was sold in bookstores. The Progressive published atom bomb plans. --Nbauman (talk) 20:07, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
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- The primary difference is that the articles of your other examples do not have links to copies of those works in the external links section when they would be a copyright violation. Nobody argued that the links should be removed because they are objectionable, so I don't see WP:CENSOR as being a rebuttal to that. However, the next section below that is relevant: Wikipedia is not a forum for unregulated free speech, so if the links are "important for classic free speech reasons", that doesn't warrant including them merely on that basis. - SudoGhost 22:23, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
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- "Nobody argued that the links should be removed because they are objectionable,"
- That's not true:
- (cur | prev) 04:27, 17 April 2013 89.69.131.15 (talk) . . (34,787 bytes) (-4,398) . . (→External links: it shows how to kill people constructing bomb!) (undo)
- In the history, people go through many different reasons for deleting it, none of them supported under WP guidelines. Now they've come to copyright violation.
- I don't believe that it is copyright. Wired called it "open source jihad". Inspire was distributed by being circulated through web sites. As a publishing lawyer once told me, it's not a copyright violation to use a document in the way it was intended.
- BTW, what's the source of the section labeled "Contents" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inspire_%28magazine%29#Contents ? It seems to be the same source as the original issues. If you can't link to the original issues, then you can't link to the Contents, and if you can't find a WP:RS, the Contents section must be removed. --Nbauman (talk) 03:36, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- I was talking about in this discussion, not what an IP address did on an article a week ago. Unless there's actual documentation showing that it's released under some sort of copyleft license or something like that, then it is under copyright. Wikipedia is an "open source encyclopedia", and the contributions are specifically released under CC-BY-SA 3.0. Wikipedia articles about magazines do not have external links to infringing copies of the magazine; that this one happens to be potentially offensive does not give it special consideration just because of WP:NOTCENSORED. - SudoGhost 04:16, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- I just checked Inspire issue No. 2. On page 3, they say, "Open Source Jihad." They're explicitly saying that it's open source. That's clear documentation that it's issued under something like a copyleft license. So it's not infringing to copy it and post it on a web site, and it's not infringing to link to a web site that copies it. That should satisfy your objections. --Nbauman (talk) 04:41, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- That's not clear documentation of any such thing; unless by "open source" they mean that the source code is available for public use (which they don't) then the use of "open source" is a buzzword, that's all. There are plenty of "open source" things that have nothing to do with a copyleft license, and plenty of open source software that still retain certain things under copyright, so using the words "open source" doesn't mean anything. Unless it specifically says what type of license it is released under, or that it is released into the public domain, then it is under copyright. - SudoGhost 04:53, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- That's as clear a statement as you can reasonably expect to get from a magazine that's written in such poor English. What do you expect them to do, contact the EFF for legal advice on releasing their copyright? Did you read the magazine? --Nbauman (talk) 06:28, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- It would need to be completely, unambiguously clear that the work is not under copyright in order for Wikipedia to provide an external link to blogs and other sites reproducing the content. Using the words "Open Source Jihad" is a clear statement that they wanted to use a buzzword for their content, that's all. If it's such poor English, that wouldn't suggest using the words "open source" is a clear statement, if you're suggesting the authors have a poor grasp of English that would do even less to convey some sort of relinquishing of copyright. - SudoGhost 13:41, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- Let me see if I understand this correctly. Copyright law (and interpreting ambiguous legal situations) is based on thousands of cases, and requires a lot of legal judgment that lawyers get over years of practice. You're not a lawyer. You haven't consulted any lawyers. You're just giving your non-lawyer's opinion that it would be a copyright violation to even link to this site. You don't have any of that legal experience. It just seems that way to you. It seems obvious to you. Right? --Nbauman (talk) 16:50, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- No, I don't think you do understand it correctly. You're suggesting that a claim to copyright can be ignored solely because the work contains the words "open source"; not a CC-BY-SA notice, not a declaration that the work is public domain, just those two words. Are you suggesting that because copyright law has "thousands of cases" and "a lot of legal judgement" that this is somehow nullified on Wikipedia? I don't see how you working on the assumption that I'm not a lawyer would somehow grant any merit to this external link being any more appropriate than it otherwise would have been. - SudoGhost 17:31, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- In order to confidently know what copyright law says, you have to be a lawyer. You are making claims about copyright law, and you have removed content from Wikipedia based on those claims. I'm asking you whether you know as much about copyright law as a lawyer knows. The answer is no. Everything you say about copyright law is a layman's speculation. Right? --Nbauman (talk) 18:12, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- ...are you asking my if it is a layman opinion that a claim to copyright is not nullified merely because the magazine contains the words "open source jihad"? Yes, I am confident beyond any doubt that using the words "open source" in an article does not relinquish an owner's copyright. There is no speculation on that in any capacity; unless the owner voluntarily gives up his rights, he retains them, and there is no evidence that anything like that occurred; that is certainly not demonstrated by using the words "open source jihad" in an article. - SudoGhost 18:25, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- It occurs to me that external links are an optional component of articles—a convenience but hardly essential, since our readers can easily use search engines to find a given site. If that's the case, it probably would be better to err on the side of caution and not link to something that may be a copyright violation. Personally, I'm not a zealot about copyright, but in a borderline case where other valid concerns about the external link have been raised (as they have here) . . . well, it just seems safer to avoid including such links. Rivertorch (talk) 18:09, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- OK, Sudo, in your non-lawyer's opinion, this is a copyright violation.
- What would you say about linking to the MEMRI web site? In a similar way, on their web site they reproduce works in translation without permission of the copyright owners. Many of the authors and copyright owners have complained that MEMRI's translations distort what they actually said. It seems to me that using the same logic, you should agree that we should not link to the MEMRI site, since they commit massive copyright violations. Correct? --Nbauman (talk) 18:37, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- In order to confidently know what copyright law says, you have to be a lawyer. You are making claims about copyright law, and you have removed content from Wikipedia based on those claims. I'm asking you whether you know as much about copyright law as a lawyer knows. The answer is no. Everything you say about copyright law is a layman's speculation. Right? --Nbauman (talk) 18:12, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- No, I don't think you do understand it correctly. You're suggesting that a claim to copyright can be ignored solely because the work contains the words "open source"; not a CC-BY-SA notice, not a declaration that the work is public domain, just those two words. Are you suggesting that because copyright law has "thousands of cases" and "a lot of legal judgement" that this is somehow nullified on Wikipedia? I don't see how you working on the assumption that I'm not a lawyer would somehow grant any merit to this external link being any more appropriate than it otherwise would have been. - SudoGhost 17:31, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- Let me see if I understand this correctly. Copyright law (and interpreting ambiguous legal situations) is based on thousands of cases, and requires a lot of legal judgment that lawyers get over years of practice. You're not a lawyer. You haven't consulted any lawyers. You're just giving your non-lawyer's opinion that it would be a copyright violation to even link to this site. You don't have any of that legal experience. It just seems that way to you. It seems obvious to you. Right? --Nbauman (talk) 16:50, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- It would need to be completely, unambiguously clear that the work is not under copyright in order for Wikipedia to provide an external link to blogs and other sites reproducing the content. Using the words "Open Source Jihad" is a clear statement that they wanted to use a buzzword for their content, that's all. If it's such poor English, that wouldn't suggest using the words "open source" is a clear statement, if you're suggesting the authors have a poor grasp of English that would do even less to convey some sort of relinquishing of copyright. - SudoGhost 13:41, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- That's as clear a statement as you can reasonably expect to get from a magazine that's written in such poor English. What do you expect them to do, contact the EFF for legal advice on releasing their copyright? Did you read the magazine? --Nbauman (talk) 06:28, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- That's not clear documentation of any such thing; unless by "open source" they mean that the source code is available for public use (which they don't) then the use of "open source" is a buzzword, that's all. There are plenty of "open source" things that have nothing to do with a copyleft license, and plenty of open source software that still retain certain things under copyright, so using the words "open source" doesn't mean anything. Unless it specifically says what type of license it is released under, or that it is released into the public domain, then it is under copyright. - SudoGhost 04:53, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- I just checked Inspire issue No. 2. On page 3, they say, "Open Source Jihad." They're explicitly saying that it's open source. That's clear documentation that it's issued under something like a copyleft license. So it's not infringing to copy it and post it on a web site, and it's not infringing to link to a web site that copies it. That should satisfy your objections. --Nbauman (talk) 04:41, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- I was talking about in this discussion, not what an IP address did on an article a week ago. Unless there's actual documentation showing that it's released under some sort of copyleft license or something like that, then it is under copyright. Wikipedia is an "open source encyclopedia", and the contributions are specifically released under CC-BY-SA 3.0. Wikipedia articles about magazines do not have external links to infringing copies of the magazine; that this one happens to be potentially offensive does not give it special consideration just because of WP:NOTCENSORED. - SudoGhost 04:16, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- Rivertorch, according to WP:EL: "External links in an article can be helpful to the reader, but they should be kept minimal, meritable, and directly relevant to the article."
- These links are directly relevant to the article. Muslims are being demonized, al-Qaeda is being demonized, and it's not only helpful but important for people to know whether the accusations against them in the media (and Wikipedia) are true. In Wikipedia, everything has to be verifiable. People should be able to go to the original sources and see whether they're being quoted accurately. So it's more than a convenience. It's essential to getting the facts.
- I read a couple of the issues, and while I don't sympathize or support their goals, I understand them much better. They do have reasonable complaints about US policies in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Israel, for example. When you read the issues, you find out that they're not insane zealots (which is what you usually find out when you get both sides of an argument).
- As for the search engines -- The original site is down. I used Google to find other sites with those issues, and I couldn't find one. Supposedly some sites have those PDFs with malware embedded, so it's significantly safer to lead readers to a safe site. --Nbauman (talk) 18:42, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- While I deplore the demonization of Muslims, I really couldn't care less whether al-Qaeda or any other acknowledged terrorist organization is demonized, no matter how reasonable their complaints may be. But neither my RL opinions nor yours matter here. It is not up to Wikipedia to counteract the demonization of anyone; our remit is to present verifiable content as neutrally as we know how, using what the community has decided to be reliable sources—including, sad to say, some that engage in demonization (FOX News, anyone?). If we could determine beyond a reasonable doubt that the links in question lead to content that is controlled by the entity in question, then, everything else being equal (i.e., no copyvio or other issues), I would support their inclusion. But afaik we have no way of verifying that that's the case. Rivertorch (talk) 19:08, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Christadelphians
We have an editor who insists on adding the following to the article:
"Go to YouTube and search 'Christadelphian Bible Prophecy Channel'on-line collection of Christadelphian HD Video's,Suitable for Preaching or Ecclesial use, Inc Bible Class Studies, Gospel Address, Thought For the Day,Spotlight on Bible Prophecy,Prophecy Day Events recorded 'Live',Slide Presentations and Exhortation"
I've reverted twice as has Xlinkbot and I've warned the editor, who has an obvious COI with anything Christadelphian. I don't want to get to 3RR myself. Dougweller (talk) 17:42, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
- Warned user for EW, watching. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 18:04, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'm also checking to see if anyone thinks this is a suitable link. Not that it's a link anymore. Dougweller (talk) 20:58, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Church Committee#Sections of the Church Committee report
Looking for a second opinion in the above section in that a bunch of ELs within it come back with "Reported Attack Page!" warnings. Thanks! Location (talk) 05:12, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
- There is no need to list and link to every chapter of the report, so I've removed the entire section. Location (talk) 15:43, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
IP trying to push hate site link
Germar Rudolf is the author of a Holocaust denying report. We have a link to his website which links to his report. An IP is trying to push another link to the same report which is on vho.org - Holocaust denying hate site. I've removed it - it's been discussed before on the talk page and there's no reason to link to a hate site when we already have a link. Does anyone think that there is a reason to include this link? Dougweller (talk) 05:42, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
- It isn't a hate site (despite its despicable content), rather it is the commercial book publisher started by Rudolf to sell his and other people's books from a country (the UK) where they are not illegal. There are two reasons why we shouldn't have the link - firstly it is plain and simple spam, just there to promote the sales of books; and secondly it is already linked from the front page of Rudolf's on website, which is linked from the Wikipedia article. Bottom line, it doesn't belong. --Biker Biker (talk) 06:57, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
There are 28 links to vho.org in articles:
- Adolf Hitler [1]
- Animal fat [2]
- Association des anciens amateurs de récits de guerre et d'holocauste [3]
- Black supremacy [4]
- Eliezer Livneh [5]
- Florentine Rost van Tonningen [6]
- Freda Utley [7]
- Germar Rudolf [8] [9]
- H. Keith Thompson [10]
- Harry Elmer Barnes [11]
- Hitler's Table Talk [12]
- Holocaust denial [13]
- Israel Shamir [14]
- Jhenaidah Cadet College [15]
- John G. Schmitz [16]
- Jürgen Graf [17]
- Michèle Renouf [18]
- Norberto Ceresole [19] [20]
- Panfilov's Twenty-Eight Guardsmen [21]
- Siegfried Verbeke [22]
- Soviet Anti-Zionism [23]
- Soviet offensive plans controversy [24]
- Stellio Capo Chichi [25]
- The Death of the West [26]
- Uckfield [27]
- William Tyrrell, 1st Baron Tyrrell [28]
Johnuniq (talk) 07:58, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
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- The personal webpage linked does more to promote books. The argument that other pages on a site promote books so we can't link to a relevant page is fallacious. The link to the page containing the text of the report is more relevant than the personal webpage. Where is the link to the report on the personal webpage, I do not see it. Why can we not have both links? This smacks of censorship borne of personal dislike. 175.193.212.64 (talk) 08:01, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
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- I've told you and others have to now - his official website has a link to the paper. That's all we need. And you now have several editors disagreeing with you and no one agreeing with you. Dougweller (talk) 11:16, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
- And this is another reason: the link at Jhenaidah Cadet College is to Fateful Triangle by Noam Chomsky - the entire text is illegally copied there. We should not link to sites that have copyvio links. Dougweller (talk) 11:21, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
- Why not link straight to the paper. It's the crux of the issue. Are you personally uncomfortable with that paper? 175.193.212.64 (talk) 12:09, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
- And this is another reason: the link at Jhenaidah Cadet College is to Fateful Triangle by Noam Chomsky - the entire text is illegally copied there. We should not link to sites that have copyvio links. Dougweller (talk) 11:21, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
- I've told you and others have to now - his official website has a link to the paper. That's all we need. And you now have several editors disagreeing with you and no one agreeing with you. Dougweller (talk) 11:16, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
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(edit conflict)Partially because it's against our guideline. I've told you and others have to now - his official website has a link to the paper. That's all we need. And you now have several editors disagreeing with you and no one agreeing with you. Dougweller (talk) 11:16, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
- What guideline? Some of my points remain unaddressed. 175.193.212.64 (talk) 15:35, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
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- And this is another reason: the link at Jhenaidah Cadet College is to Fateful Triangle by Noam Chomsky - the entire text is illegally copied there. We should not link to sites that have copyvio links. Dougweller (talk) 11:21, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
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VHO is not actually Rudolf's site, although he seems to be largely responsible for it. It's a Belgian extremist right wing site. There are 28 links to vho.org in articles:
- Adolf Hitler [29] copyvio copy of a book by Trevor Roper
- Animal fat [30] the website is the home page of The Revisionist - Journal for Critical Historical Inquiry and this is an article from it, so no copyvio
- Association des anciens amateurs de récits de guerre et d'holocauste [31] This one is interesting. This organisation had it's Internet sites shut down by French courts for anti-Semitic content, and Vrij Historisch Onderzoek (VHO) is by court judgment not accessible from any French territory. But not copyvio.
- Black supremacy [32] copyvio article from the journal Politica hermetica
- Eliezer Livneh [33] copyvio from The Washington Report on Middle east Affairs with a note justifying the copyvio referring to the UN Declartion of Human Rights
- Florentine Rost van Tonningen [34] says it has permission from the Institute for Historical Review
- Freda Utley [35] copyvio copy of a book by Freda Utley
- Germar Rudolf [36] [37] these seem to not be copyvio
- H. Keith Thompson [38] IHR article, has permission
- Harry Elmer Barnes [39] not copyvio
- Hitler's Table Talk [40] copyvio Trevor Roper book
- Holocaust denial [41] not copyvio
- Israel Shamir [42] copyvio copy of subject's Flowers of Galilee: The Collected Essays of Israel Shamir
- Jhenaidah Cadet College [43] book by Noam Chomsky
- John G. Schmitz [44] not copyvio
- Jürgen Graf [45] not copyvio
- Michèle Renouf [46] dead link, probably not copyvio
- Norberto Ceresole [47] [48] not sure what this is but as it has the 'we can print this because of freedom of expression' bit, probably copyvio
- Panfilov's Twenty-Eight Guardsmen [49] almost certainly copyvio although in Russian
- Siegfried Verbeke [50] he is an owner of VHO, "content may be illegal in some jurisdictions"
- Soviet Anti-Zionism [51] copy of a book "published in 1969 by The Publishing House for Political Literature, entitled Caution, Zionism! By Yuri Ivanov"[52]
- Soviet offensive plans controversy [53] in Russian, but copyvo of this book[54]
- Stellio Capo Chichi [55] copyvio from Politica hermetica'
- The Death of the West [56] not copyvio (interesting EL's, 3 to Lewrockwell.com)
- Uckfield [57] this said "A Holocaust denial group headed by the infamous Siegfried Verbeke has its postal address in Uckfield.http://www.vho.org/store/pay.html Details of Verbeke's beliefs]" not copyvio, but their store
- William Tyrrell, 1st Baron Tyrrell [58] not copyvio
So we have maybe 13 copyvio links, and that isn't an attempt to count the number of copyvio links on the website. And I'd still call it a hate site, especially as it's the site for Association des anciens amateurs de récits de guerre et d'holocauste as well. Dougweller (talk) 12:37, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
- I agree, the site exists to literally sell a discredited antisemitic conspiracy theory, and there's no reason to link to it. Frizzmaz (talk) 01:43, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
- It's not actually our place to designate theories discredited, merely to report those theories, along with other sources that may dispute them. 175.193.212.64 (talk) 15:33, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
- We should not be using sites on historical things as references where the contents aren't written by accredited experts or peer reviewed in any way. There are enough good sites and sources. Dmcq (talk) 20:39, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
- "It's not actually our place to designate theories discredited" - unless the theories are all but universally recognized as discredited, as is clearly the case with Holocaust denial, an ideology which is fascist-right in origin and which is embraced only by those comfortable with its requisite antisemitism. You might want to take a look at WP:FRINGE. Frizzmaz (talk) 12:48, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
Like Well said. Rivertorch (talk) 18:12, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- "It's not actually our place to designate theories discredited" - unless the theories are all but universally recognized as discredited, as is clearly the case with Holocaust denial, an ideology which is fascist-right in origin and which is embraced only by those comfortable with its requisite antisemitism. You might want to take a look at WP:FRINGE. Frizzmaz (talk) 12:48, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
- We should not be using sites on historical things as references where the contents aren't written by accredited experts or peer reviewed in any way. There are enough good sites and sources. Dmcq (talk) 20:39, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
- It's not actually our place to designate theories discredited, merely to report those theories, along with other sources that may dispute them. 175.193.212.64 (talk) 15:33, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
DMOZ on Amateur radio
Please take a look at recent edits at Amateur radio. I've reverted several attempts to add direct Exlinks in spite of the article already using DMOZ, which it has done for a considerable time, it's not a recent change. I'm already at two reverts with one of the editors concerned so I don't want to break 3RR. Please help the editors understand the point of using DMOZ, if every national amateur radio society was linked directly (in addition to all the other "deserving" websites) the article would be drowned in links as there are hundreds such organisations. Thanks (I'm going to bed now and will be away from my computer all day tomorrow so I will be unable to participate in or respond to any questions about this matter before about 07:00 UTC on Monday, 22 April). Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 22:53, 20 April 2013 (UTC)