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Non-English content; robust markup
Two related issues:
I've just opposed a FAC on the grounds that included non-English place- and company-names, that weren't marked up with {{Lang}}.
This touches on the wider issue on checking that FACs uses the proper mark-up in other cases, such as quotations, lists and headings, rather than kludges.
If there is general agreement that such things should be checked, I'd be willing to help draft guidelines (or a checklist), based on existing MoS criteria, and suggest that we add a new criterion 2(d), to the effect that "Markup: is consistent, accessible and semantically meaningful".
Thoughts? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 12:01, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- The criteria state that articles should follow the MOS. Why do we need to get more specific than that? Karanacs (talk) 23:04, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- For full disclosure, the article in question is A1 (Croatia), a road article. --Rschen7754 02:36, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- That's not the only one; and irrelevant to the general point discussed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 10:15, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- It's clear that FAs are being passed, without such issues being addressed. I'm proposing something to help reviewers make sure they are. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 10:15, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- This appears to already be covered by the criteria. We've had a long-standing dearth of reviewers who specifically look at MOS issues, so some of the more obscure MOS points can be overlooked. I don't think the answer is to make the criteria longer - it's to have reviewers look at the MOS more in-depth. Karanacs (talk) 13:33, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- OK. how do you prose that we do that? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 15:38, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- (reply to Karan) Or ... crazy idea... quite piling every little hobby horse of a style issue into the MOS. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:34, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- So, accessibility and semantic markup are "little hobby horses of style issues"? Thanks, I'll try to remember that. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 15:22, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Coordinates are part of "accessibility"? The lang template, I can see, but the coordinates seem to me to be a totally personal choice... they don't really fit into the "comprehensiveness" category, because quite honestly most folks won't have the gear to interpret the longitude and latitude figures... a good map should be enough to pinpoint a location enough to satisfy the 'comprehensive' concerns. And frankly, yes, there are way too many details in the MOS - and a lot of them boil down to things that I personally think should be left out so that we can concentrate on the important things - like accessibility issues. Instead, the important bits get buried under the increasing bits of minutiae that make it impossible to know what we need to be concentrating on. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:31, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Where, in this section, do I mention coordinates? Which of the things I have referred to are minutiae? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 15:38, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- I was replying to Karan's general point about MOS issues. I didn't specifically mention you, did I? Calm, calm... Im sorry I didn't make that perfectly clear - I shall do that now... May I suggest, however, that adding a specific criteria to the FAC things about markup IS minutiae, especially when the elements you are specifically mentioning in this section are already covered in the MOS - and every FAC needs to meet the MOS. I get that you want this checked for... the best method to do that is to ... review FACs. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:45, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- ... but it's much easier of course to try and force others to do the work. This discussion reminds me somewhat of the editors who tag articles as needing X, Y or Z and then swiftly move on, leaving their tags in place for years in many cases because frankly nobody else gives a damn. Malleus Fatuorum 16:31, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Which bit of "I'd be willing to help…" in my original post in this section did you miss? Wikipedia is a collaborative project, is it not? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 17:05, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- So far as the MoS is concerned I am firmly of the opinion that it's already too big and sprawling, and seriously wrong in certain places, therefore I'm most definitely not in favour of expanding it. For better or for worse, as far as FAC is concerned I would never oppose an article because it failed to conform to a MoS guideline I fundamentally disagreed with, no matter what the criteria say. Malleus Fatuorum 16:34, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- ... but it's much easier of course to try and force others to do the work. This discussion reminds me somewhat of the editors who tag articles as needing X, Y or Z and then swiftly move on, leaving their tags in place for years in many cases because frankly nobody else gives a damn. Malleus Fatuorum 16:31, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- I was replying to Karan's general point about MOS issues. I didn't specifically mention you, did I? Calm, calm... Im sorry I didn't make that perfectly clear - I shall do that now... May I suggest, however, that adding a specific criteria to the FAC things about markup IS minutiae, especially when the elements you are specifically mentioning in this section are already covered in the MOS - and every FAC needs to meet the MOS. I get that you want this checked for... the best method to do that is to ... review FACs. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:45, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Where, in this section, do I mention coordinates? Which of the things I have referred to are minutiae? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 15:38, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- Coordinates are part of "accessibility"? The lang template, I can see, but the coordinates seem to me to be a totally personal choice... they don't really fit into the "comprehensiveness" category, because quite honestly most folks won't have the gear to interpret the longitude and latitude figures... a good map should be enough to pinpoint a location enough to satisfy the 'comprehensive' concerns. And frankly, yes, there are way too many details in the MOS - and a lot of them boil down to things that I personally think should be left out so that we can concentrate on the important things - like accessibility issues. Instead, the important bits get buried under the increasing bits of minutiae that make it impossible to know what we need to be concentrating on. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:31, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- So, accessibility and semantic markup are "little hobby horses of style issues"? Thanks, I'll try to remember that. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 15:22, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- This appears to already be covered by the criteria. We've had a long-standing dearth of reviewers who specifically look at MOS issues, so some of the more obscure MOS points can be overlooked. I don't think the answer is to make the criteria longer - it's to have reviewers look at the MOS more in-depth. Karanacs (talk) 13:33, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- For full disclosure, the article in question is A1 (Croatia), a road article. --Rschen7754 02:36, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
The easiest answer, Andy, would be to review articles for compliance with the minutiae of the MOS that aren't normally reviewed, and enter declarations on those points in the reviews. Compliance with the MOS is already required by the FA Criteria, so an additional point isn't really needed. Imzadi 1979 → 02:14, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
Criteria 1c - exhausting reliable sources vs desired article structure
I didn't bring it to FAC but someone did try to renominate My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic again for FA, but it was closed, quickly and quite appropriately.
But the comments from that and the first FAC attempt have highlighted a problem that I see us having with criteria 1c. As a (the?) primary author of most of the article, and continued vestiment in it, I wholeheartedly believe we have exhausted the available sourcing for the show from reliable sources, and yet we are running into comments in the FAC that more reliable sourcing is needed.
That is: this is a kids show on Saturday mornings on a second-tier cable channel. It is not going to be attracting a lot of media attention (barring future changes, but I can't CRYSTAL what might happen to do that). The only reason we have so much is because of the internet following which has highlighted this specific show from the Saturday morning block there. To flesh out parts of the article that would be normally required for a TV show (like origin and production) we are forced to turn to the presently most notable fanblog and specifically interviews with the show runners that the blog performed. (I do note there are other sources in the article presently there that probably can be removed or the like).
So basically, in terms of 1C, we have exhausted what sources are available to us, and thus I can confidently state that the article does reflect what the sources say. But if we're demanded to use more reliable sources, we're stuck there, and/or we have to cut out information that is generally part of FAs for TV that otherwise we can't back by more reliable sources than the leading fanblog.
The case that we're in should not prevent the article from becoming FA - as long as we have used every possible RS to us, and assuming all the other criteria is met, that can't be considered a barrier, otherwise there are likely numerous articles out there on topics that can never get to FA. So, the question in general here is: when considering a topic that has limited (but otherwise sufficient) coverage in reliable sources, do we weigh in favor of using the most reliable sources knowing that this will remove or curtail key sections of an article that are backed by weakly reliable sources, or do we favor having a more complete article and incorporate the weaker reliable sources (as long as we are assured they are reliable) to support all appropriate sections for an article? Or is it some place in between? --MASEM (t) 16:33, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- There are, in fact, numerous articles out there on topics that can never get to FA. Whether this particular article is one of those I don't know, but I don't think the general principle is a bad one. If the sources don't exist to write an FA-level article, then such an article cannot be written, and I don't feel we should respond by weakening the criteria to allow them to (again, speaking generally). Nikkimaria (talk) 16:53, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- If there are mainspace articles that can never get to FA, with the understanding that it a limit set by how much sourcing there is, then we shouldn't be having articles on them at all. All of our core content guidelines are discouragements to creating an article that can never get more than weak sourcing in time. --MASEM (t) 16:58, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- WP:N and WP:V in practice set a much lower barrier for inclusion than the sourcing/comprehensiveness aspects of WP:WIAFA. You're welcome to try deleting all articles that can never get more than weak sourcing, but I don't think you'd get very far. Unfortunately, it seems to be a fact of the wiki that articles will always exist with no possibility of ever achieving FA. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:03, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I don't necessary say deletion, because almost always there's ways to merge upwards to a broad, better sourced topic where such topics can be included. And there have been short FAs too (I believe several tropical storm FAs fall under that); again, it's about covering a topic to the depth that sources will allow while being sufficiently complete coverage.
- To this specific article and the case in general, it is still a question whether either reliable sourcing or article completeness - or both - are important to the FA. --MASEM (t) 17:32, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- WP:N and WP:V in practice set a much lower barrier for inclusion than the sourcing/comprehensiveness aspects of WP:WIAFA. You're welcome to try deleting all articles that can never get more than weak sourcing, but I don't think you'd get very far. Unfortunately, it seems to be a fact of the wiki that articles will always exist with no possibility of ever achieving FA. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:03, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- If there are mainspace articles that can never get to FA, with the understanding that it a limit set by how much sourcing there is, then we shouldn't be having articles on them at all. All of our core content guidelines are discouragements to creating an article that can never get more than weak sourcing in time. --MASEM (t) 16:58, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- I've opposed articles at FAC because while they do meet notability, they aren't really comprehensive. I think there's lots of leeway as far as "allowable" structure for articles, but if I can't get the bare essentials on gameplay, development, reception, etc. from a video game article, I don't see how it can stand as Wikipedia's best, merely a polished piece. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 17:38, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Following on David Fuchs, while I have sympathy with editors who exhaust the reliable sources without being able to comprehensively portray their topic, this is perhaps the time when publishing original research off wiki is appropriate. Journal of Fandom Studies seems to suit MLP content in the scholarly mode. Convincing a fan website to enact an edited section with a Named Meat Editor and editorial board taking responsibility for the factual accuracy wouldn't be too hard. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:45, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
External links in addition to references
Hello - I'm hoping for some guidance on a point of discussion over at South African Airways Flight 295. There are a number of external links that various editors wish to keep in the external links section on account of their "importance". These links are already used in the article as references, and my understanding is that this would preclude them from being listed in the external links section too. I think WP:LINKFARM might apply, as the discussion seems to be centered around the prominence given to these links in the article. What does the FAC criteria have to say about this, as point #1 of WP:ELNO defers to here. Thanks in advance. Socrates2008 (Talk) 08:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
RfC claims everything must have a cite
In Talk:Electrical engineering#Unsourced material one editor claims that all material in every article must be supported by a citation, including well-known easy-to-verify material. Another editor does not claim this is required for all articles, but that it is required by FA criterion 1c. Jc3s5h (talk) 01:28, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Need a new criteria
The FA criteria currently do not take into account the popularity or the importance (there is a difference) of an article. We have ended up with a situation where featured articles are not representative of popular or important topics. As an example, which has prompted this comment, Birth control movement in the United States was given featured article status yet there was no Birth control in the United States article. The latter article is more important and should have existed prior to the granting FA status to Birth control movement in the United States.
The FA criteria can be used to shape the workload of editors and we should use the criteria to do what is important or popular rather than what the editor wants to do. I realise that the vast majority of editors are volunteers and therefore do whatever they want to do. Most of them abide by guidelines so we should tweak the guidelines to improve WP.
My preference is to improve the important topics before we move on to the popular ones. The FA criteria can be used to do this and so I want the addition of a new rule:
- 1. Necessary - it is a level four vital article.
Once the level four vital article are done we could move on to popular articles. We might need an RFC for this? -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 02:00, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm glad to know that I'm going to be paid to edit these "vital" articles .. oh. Wait. No, I'm not getting paid. I'm a volunteer. But somehow someone else thinks they can dictate to me what I want to edit on? I'll get right on those vital articles as soon as I see the proposer producing FAs on those topics he is so blithely trying to force other editors to write. Oh, wait, the proposer hasn't even ever nominated a successful FAC... (As an aside ... I'm currently working on two "vital articles" towards getting them to FA... so yes, folks do work on them...). If anyone thinks I'm being cranky... gee, I wonder why? Ealdgyth - Talk 02:06, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
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- Um, why are you cranky? -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 02:13, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
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- Is it because you think that I am trying to control editors? -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 02:19, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
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- Writing article to reach FAC is not my forte. If it was I may do it. Categorisation, patrolling, some writing to fill gaps etc is what I do. This may be a wiki but there is still some dictating of what we can and cannot do. Look at the stack of policy and guidelines that we have to wade through! -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 02:19, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
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- Because this is an insane proposal and flies totally in the face of the concept of a volunteer project? I don't tell other editors how they can spend their time - for example, you appear to be very interested in templates and categories but neither area is a place I'm interested in. So should I say "no one can add or subtract categories from an article unless they add content to that article"? No, I don't, I don't impose my concepts of what other editors should work on .. so others shouldn't impose strait jackets of "importance" on other project areas. Of COURSE you're trying to control editors.... it might actually be sorta bearable from someone who has brought up a couple of FAs through the process but from someone who hasn't... May I suggest that if you really find the encouragement of "vital articles" important you check out Wikipedia:The Core Contest... and volunteer to help Casliber with another iteration of the contest. Or perhaps get involved in getting grants for folks writing "vital articles" ... carrots work so much better than sticks. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:22, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
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- Gee! Sorry I asked.... 02:27, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
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Not to put too fine a point on this, but no, we are not going to require that an article is "vital" in order promote it to FA. This proposal is a non-starter, for the reasons Ealdgyth described above. Raul654 (talk) 02:48, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
- What about at least some sort of nod in the direction of importance and popularity? -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 02:53, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
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- "Oops..." said Alan as he quietly tip-toed away.
- "I was going to have a browse of the archives" he thought to himself, trying to justify the intrusion. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 03:29, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
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It's not an accident that importance/notability are not part of the FA criteria. I've said for a long time that any article can survive AFD can become a featured article, at least theoretically. The reasons are both philosophical (in that FA is an evaluation of the quality of article and not of the merits of the subject) and practical (saying that something can't become an FA tends to dissuade people from putting in the effort to improve it. However, Alan, you are wrong in assuming that they'll instead put in the effort to get something else up to FA standards).
Nothing makes me happier than when someone does all the heavy lifting to get an important article up to FA standards, because it's much harder taking an important article up to FA status than it is to get a niche article there. I want to do all I can to support these editors and make their jobs easier. And I do use importance/notability for deciding which stuff should go on the main page.
But with all that said, other than main page featurability and AFD survivability, the FA designation and importance are totally orthogonal. Raul654 (talk) 04:11, 4 May 2012 (UTC)