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Using old sources when an wikipedia page changes its name
If a company or organization changes its name, and the wikipedia page's name is changed to reflect that, it may happen that there are hardly any sources using the new name of the organization. My question is whether you can use sources that cite the old name as reference for the new article. E.G. Suppose a church called "church x" is renamed to "church y", and there is a source which states "church x is the largest church in America" - can you therefore say on the wikipedia page "church y is the largest church in america", using the old source as a citation?
Specifically, someone has deleted the entire contents of this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radha_Madhav_Dham The article used to be Barsana Dham, but was renamed to Radha Madhav Dham. The same person has tagged it for deletion because it is non-notable because it is a new organization. They are saying that it was founded in 2011, although using the old name, it was founded in 1990. However it is the largest Hindu temple in north America, and there are plenty of sources to say that, albeit referring to the old name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.240.67 (talk) 02:38, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Are Bus Routes Encyclopaedic?
Recently a number of Lists of UK Bus Routes have come up for AfD, two closed on Delete and more closed on No Consensus.
Postdlf's closing statement on the last of these would seem sum up the problems associated with these debates:
The result was NO CONSENSUS. ...to delete outright, at least. The principle Thyduulf supports is unresolved (see also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of bus routes in Peterborough) as to whether such bus route lists should be viewed as in furtherance of Wikipedia's coverage of real places, or should be viewed as a WP:NOTDIR violation. The assertion that "Wikipedia is not a bus directory" doesn't help answer the question, even if "true" (i.e., consensus-supported interpretation), as what makes an article a "directory" or not can be a matter purely of detail and presentation (e.g., including ephemeral info such as timetables, street intersections for bus stops) rather than subject matter. Particularly given the vast number of bus route articles that exist (take a look atCategory:Bus routes in England, for example) it would probably be best to have an RFC or other centralized discussion to resolve the issue, rather than try to delete individual lists here or there when the reasons for deletion target the whole subject rather than being specific to that list. This particular list is unsourced at present, but I do not see an argument that it is unverifiable, nor is there a clear way to apply WP:GNG here.
Some of these articles are sourced to Primary sources - Timetables, etc - others remain unsourced.
The arguments against are that the articles fail WP:N, WP:NOTESAL, WP:NOTDIR, WP:NOTTRAVEL, WP:SAL amongst others The arguments for are that such lists do not form a directory or travel guide (removing WP:NOT arguments), that the lists are WP:V, and that if the list meets WP:5P (section #1 - Wikipedia incorporates elements of general and specialized almanacs, and gazetteers.) then notability can be established by the number of sources even if those sources do not meet WP:GNG.
Whilst I've !voted Delete for these AfD's I think there are some ways the lists can be integrated into Notable Articles - For instance some lists are contained not in a SAL but within the articles on the operating companies within each region (articles on first Bus are good examples like First Aberdeen) , Also in some cities a SAL may actually meet GNG and could be justified in remaining.
Finally WikiProject Buses previously considered a set of notability guidelines for Lists of Bus Routes, their now inactive guideline read:
Generally, if the bus routes in an area descended from streetcars, a list is appropriate, and if the system did not exist at all until the 1990s, it is probably not. In between those extremes, use your own judgment.
currently I see no evidence that the age of the routes is being taken into account by the editors creating some of these lists.
So the questions needing discussed.
- Are lists of Bus routes automatically notable, even if GNG cannot be met?
- Do Bus route lists establish a directory or Travel guide failing WP:NOT?
- if not automatically notable, Should a Guideline be established to differentiate lists of routes that are automatically notable due to their longevity, and those that are notable for more recent reasons?
Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 14:56, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- I believe they should be treated the same as databases. The information contained is not notable, in fact shouldn't be referred to unless as a primary source relating to information given by a secondary source. Dmcq (talk) 15:10, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- Notability is NOT EVER automatic for anything. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 15:12, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- No special case of notability for any type of schedule that is subject to change - that includes busses, trains, subways, airlines, etc. If the route is notable via the GNG (which I'm sure there are some examples from major cities), an article about it would make sense but even then, the detailed route schedule wouldn't make sense (it's one thing to say "the route is renown for regular hourly punctuality" as a general comment, and a full list of every stop and timetable). --MASEM (t) 15:17, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
I think our coverage of transportation infrastructure in the U.S. and U.K. is an area where we are producing huge volumes of content that are unlikely to be the sort of thing that benefits our users. There is this idea that individual subway stations and now even bus stops and routes are notable and should be included here. What's next? Taxi stands? Cross walks? A major metropolitan transit authority is notable. The individual routes driven by it's buses are not. The individual stops on a railroad or subway are generally not, although there are some exceptions such as Victoria Station which has a fully fleshed out article with 40+ sources. A bus route is extremely unlikely to ever have that depth of coverage. Beeblebrox (talk) 15:23, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
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- Per WP:STATION If it does not meet GNG, include the station or line in a parent article. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 15:34, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- At least one bus route has GA status - The Witch Way, which I wrote based on a whole string of sources I found by accident. Others such as London Buses route 73 are notable but aren't as well written. Lists of bus routes are different in that the general topic doesn't usually receive coverage as a whole, but individual members or smaller groups often do. Perhaps prose articles about the buses in a town or county with written information about individual routes would be a better way forward. Buses in Bristol is a good example, but even that benefits from not having to cover the information in List of bus routes in Bristol. Alzarian16 (talk) 15:40, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- Per WP:STATION If it does not meet GNG, include the station or line in a parent article. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 15:34, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
A few thoughts:
- These articles are not schedules. Schedules contain times of arrival and departure, these articles don't (or shouldn't). Anybody who cannot even realise this basic fact before spouting off about how they violate this or that, doesn't deserve an opinion at Afd or in this Rfc.
- These articles are not directories. An actual directory of bus routes would contain information on all stops and all streets served. These don't (or shouldn't). Again, people who don't realise this should have their views weighted accordingly.
- These articles are not even decent travel guides. They are most certianly not intended to be travel guides, whatever anyone thinks. No date of last update is given, no tourist information or telephone helpline information is given, nothing you would find on an actual, useful, usable, travel guide is included in the articles, except the route number, operator, and major way points. This would appear in a travel guide, and it would also appear in an encyclopoedic record, if it wished to document bus routes in an area. These are as much travel guides as road maps are tbh. And Wikipedia has no problem with documenting what road goes where as being a 'travel guide'.
- Merging to company articles is not a satisfactory alternative. Right across the country many routes are operated by multiple operators, often with the same number, or if not, the exact same route. And a good many individual routes have two different operators - a daytime commercial operator and an evening/weeked subsidised one, again with the same route and number. Merging all of this to company articles would simply be a waste of reader's time, and be a pointless potential sources of confusion/obfuscation, if it is accepted that lists of routes is valid content. Infact, several companies don't even have articles, where would their routes get documented, if not in a 'bus routes in place' type article?
- Primary sources exist in abundance, verifiability of any of this content is never an issue frankly, and while it can get out of date if not updated by editors, that's never been a reason for deletion anywhere on Wikipedia
- Changes to bus routes, either individually if the change is siginificant enough, and especially if changing whole networks, will always get at a minimum, independent secondary coverage in the local news. Some will even be protested. Improvements or initiatives, especially governemnt funded ones, also always get their fair share of free publicity. There is no way that national coverage would ever happen, but then again, what national coverage ever exists for schools? Or any other local type of infrastructure that Wikipedia documents?
Having said all that, while I would never in a million years waste the time trying to looking for GNG type coverage of a route directory, I cannot see how anybody can predict what might be found by someone motivated to keep such an article. So, I see no way that the status quo can be improved by a guideline, or by declaring a straight yes/no as to automatic notability. Sending to Afd will have to remain the status quo imho. At best, I would recommend such articles should be kept to county level and above, as these are the level at which bus services are provided/regulated, and that such lists should be incorporated into wider 'bus transport in X' type articles (but per PRESERVE, not deleted until that happens). MickMacNee (talk) 16:07, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
There's also the issue of whether specialist sources like Buses Magazine or Buses Yearbook etc etc are GNG type coverage, as they do contain coverage of whenever major routes/networks are changed. I used to think not, but having seen what sort of aviation-porn type source is routinely held up as the reason for all the 'omfg meets GNG eeeasily' type votes at Afd whenever you dare to suggest to Aviation editors that a small plane crashing in the woods kiliing 10 people but never written about again except in the likes of Flight Magazine or primary sources (which is what NTSB reports are, whatever some people say), just might not be historically notable. MickMacNee (talk) 16:20, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- 1) If the article only cites primary sources, it's a good bet it won't pass notability. 2) The difficulty of AfD-ing something shouldn't deter us from setting a guideline on them. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 18:16, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yet, at the same time, if articles from a certain realm consistently survive AfDs, then the guideline needs to be revised to account for the consensus that these types of articles are considered typically notable. It's a classic case where guidelines don't accurately reflect a wider consensus. A potential pitfall, that is. oknazevad (talk) 20:44, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- We currently have 168 articles with intitle:"Bus Routes" - That suggests 168 lists (there may be a few that aren't lists) Of those 11 have been to AfD (with one 2nd nomination - London) 6 AfDs were No consensus on virtually the same grounds as above - 6 AfDs were keep - yet reviewing them I find them much closer to no consensus - for instance Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Colombo Bus Routes which only had one vote more towards keep. What's worse is that even when these articles are kept they can remain unsourced and unimproved for years after the AfD - even when the closing Admin specifically mentions this needs done. A further 18 not included in the current 168 have actually been deleted.
- Above this we have 305 Articles on individual bus Routes - I think 69 have been to AfD with 12 Keep, 8 NC, and a further 22 Deleted. So for both there is currently a balance of keeps and deletes. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 21:55, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- 305 sounds too low. Category:Bus routes in England and its four subcategories have 362 between them (it used to be over 600, but many have been redirected to lists or deleted). There are plenty more for other countries too (80 for Canada, about 60 for the USA and 40 in Bucharest to name but a few). So anything that comes out of this discussion will have wide-ranging consequences
- Speaking only for the UK, there have been two previous attempts to clean up bus route articles: one in May 2009 as a result of Wikipedia:WikiProject Buses/UK bus route quality drive, which redirected a lot of poor articles but did little to improve the 400 or so that survived, and one in April 2010 which took in this discussion, thirty AfDs and two ANI threads, and basically led to a few articles being improved, a few being deleted, and a proposed task force that never got off the ground. Let's hope this one achieves more, or we'll be at arbitration by next year... Alzarian16 (talk) 22:06, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, a quick look and I can see you're right I was using an intitle search which is fine if the title contains "Bus Route" or "Bus Routes" but would completely miss article titles like "Southern Vectis route 10" Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 22:29, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- Yet, at the same time, if articles from a certain realm consistently survive AfDs, then the guideline needs to be revised to account for the consensus that these types of articles are considered typically notable. It's a classic case where guidelines don't accurately reflect a wider consensus. A potential pitfall, that is. oknazevad (talk) 20:44, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'm agreeing with what Beeblebrox wrote above. While I admit to being a staunch inclusionist, I have a hard time imagining why anyone would want to consult Wikipedia for this kind of information. How does having having a separate list of bus routes, without detailed schedule or route information, meet a need that having articles like Public transportation in X or Public transit in X fails to address? Even interurban bus routes can be handled with a sentence in the respective articles, e.g. "Weekly bus service from here to there is provided by Acme Coach". I'm open to persuasion that I'm wrong, but I just don't see a need for these kinds of articles. -- llywrch (talk) 22:51, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- This comment by MickMacNee, caught my attention '"Infact, several companies don't even have articles, where would their routes get documented, if not in a 'bus routes in place' type article?", If the company is not notable enough for an article, how could it's product (a bus route) be notable? The answer to MickMacNee's question is that bus routes get documented in a bus schedule, which Wikipedia is not. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 10:58, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- I had the same question and you beat me to it; There was a comment in one recent AfD that suggested that "scheduled public transport are generally considered notable"; if this is a widespread presumption of notability it doesn't seem to be vindicated by available sources. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 11:14, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Bus routes aren't 'products', they are part of physical geography. A 'bus routes in X' article is in no way comparable to a 'list of company X's products' article. Not least because they include routes from different operators. To suggest we would only include routes by companies with an article is absurd. And that comment was a rebuttal of the merge argument, it was not an argument that the articles themselves are automatically notable, so you were rebutting a point I never actually made. And as I said above, people who cannot appreciate the difference between a route and a schedule should have their opinions weighted accordingly, they aren't the same. MickMacNee (talk) 11:56, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but Bus Routes are not physical geography in the way that a road or train line are. They are constructs that may have similarities to physical geography but they arbitrarily change at the whims of Drivers, Schedulers, Road Works, Weather conditions; even the time if day. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 12:31, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- No, not at all. While the actual route taken on any one day may change due to transient effects, the design of the route is very much a fixed item, which does not infact change, in the UK at least, half as much as some here might want to make out. And how many times has this got to be said? The issue is documenting routes, NOT schedules (timings, frequencies etc). And as someone else said I think, it's surprising how many routes have varied little from the (very fixed) geography of trolleybus systems, which were mostly dismantled in the 1950s. Just because they can change, doesn't mean they have, or even do. In London, the routes are infact fixed for 7 year periods, and most have not actually been altered for decades. In the rest of the UK, the design of the route is fixed for the term of the registration - penalties are imposed for not sticking to it in full, or simply withdrawing it. Active competition aside, which is also very regulated as to what you can and can't change, and why, the design of routes is only really substantially changed due to changes in physical geography, such as new roads/estates. Any large scale changes for simply operational reasons are likely to be covered by secondary sources for their basic impact on the town/city's basic transport system - just search for Firstbus and their large scale 'Overground' network changes made in many cities, and you'll find coverage all over the place in local news, for no other reason than it involves changes to the design of many long standing fixed bus routes. If all of this isn't convincing as to the physical nature of bus routes, one thing's for certain, bus routes in the UK certainly cannot simply be changed at a 'whim' of anybody, and certainly not in any unverifiable and unpredictable way, not at all. And on a side note, while trains tracks don't change, train services do - and Wikipedia devotes massive amounts of coverage to documenting such services in addition to the tracks they run over. In terms of encyclopoedic worth and verifiabiltiy/notabilty, there's really not much difference between train services and bus routes tbh, not in the UK at least. MickMacNee (talk) 13:53, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- "there's really not much difference between train services and bus routes"; Per WP:STATION If it does not meet GNG, include the station or line in a parent article. It is pretty simple either there are independent source the meet GNG or not, if there are add them to the article and it passes WP:N. Else delete or merge and redirect. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 15:24, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- I really don't see the revelance of guidance on what to do for individual station articles has to articles about whole bus route networks. Particularly when there would be no merge or redirect target for several of the routes, as already said. If your'e trying to claim that the millions of train services (not lines) are backed up by GNG type coverage, I think your'e just wrong. If you're trying to simply say list of bus routes must have GNG coverage, I haven't actually disagreed with you there have I? MickMacNee (talk)
- We agree that each article needs to meet GNG, I don't see what the relivance of what "no merge or redirect target" is. If it fails WP:N it either gets deleted or it merges, if there is no place to merge to then you either create the article (assuming it meets WPN), or you delete the content without merge. A completely off topic example would be an article on the "left foot of thumper", if his foot does not meet WP:N, then we can merge and redirect to the artilce on Thumper (Bambi), or up the next stage to Bambi, failing that up the next stage to Walt Disney. If the only place to merge to is content on "left foot of Thumper" is to Walt Disney, then merge and redirect there, where it may stay (or more likely) be deleted. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 16:00, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- I really don't see the revelance of guidance on what to do for individual station articles has to articles about whole bus route networks. Particularly when there would be no merge or redirect target for several of the routes, as already said. If your'e trying to claim that the millions of train services (not lines) are backed up by GNG type coverage, I think your'e just wrong. If you're trying to simply say list of bus routes must have GNG coverage, I haven't actually disagreed with you there have I? MickMacNee (talk)
- There's an important issue being avoided here: bus routes, unless shown otherwise, are transient. In other words, ignoring the asserted case of the UK, bus routes can be changed, dropped or renamed at any time. While in many cases the transit organization must negotiate some amount of government red tape, a bus route is far more transient than either a road or railway. In those cases, there is the cost & labor required in acquiring right-of-way, & creating the infrastructure. (Admittedly, there are temporary railroads -- they were common in the early 20th century & used in the NW United States to move harvested timber by loggers -- but these individual railroads would not be notable by Wikipedia standards.) This whole issue is, IMHO, just another example of Wikipedia editors confusing the trees for the forest: we have countless articles on specific subjects, some highly developed, yet generalized articles on more generalized subjects lack proper attention. -- llywrch (talk) 19:47, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- "there's really not much difference between train services and bus routes"; Per WP:STATION If it does not meet GNG, include the station or line in a parent article. It is pretty simple either there are independent source the meet GNG or not, if there are add them to the article and it passes WP:N. Else delete or merge and redirect. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 15:24, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- No, not at all. While the actual route taken on any one day may change due to transient effects, the design of the route is very much a fixed item, which does not infact change, in the UK at least, half as much as some here might want to make out. And how many times has this got to be said? The issue is documenting routes, NOT schedules (timings, frequencies etc). And as someone else said I think, it's surprising how many routes have varied little from the (very fixed) geography of trolleybus systems, which were mostly dismantled in the 1950s. Just because they can change, doesn't mean they have, or even do. In London, the routes are infact fixed for 7 year periods, and most have not actually been altered for decades. In the rest of the UK, the design of the route is fixed for the term of the registration - penalties are imposed for not sticking to it in full, or simply withdrawing it. Active competition aside, which is also very regulated as to what you can and can't change, and why, the design of routes is only really substantially changed due to changes in physical geography, such as new roads/estates. Any large scale changes for simply operational reasons are likely to be covered by secondary sources for their basic impact on the town/city's basic transport system - just search for Firstbus and their large scale 'Overground' network changes made in many cities, and you'll find coverage all over the place in local news, for no other reason than it involves changes to the design of many long standing fixed bus routes. If all of this isn't convincing as to the physical nature of bus routes, one thing's for certain, bus routes in the UK certainly cannot simply be changed at a 'whim' of anybody, and certainly not in any unverifiable and unpredictable way, not at all. And on a side note, while trains tracks don't change, train services do - and Wikipedia devotes massive amounts of coverage to documenting such services in addition to the tracks they run over. In terms of encyclopoedic worth and verifiabiltiy/notabilty, there's really not much difference between train services and bus routes tbh, not in the UK at least. MickMacNee (talk) 13:53, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but Bus Routes are not physical geography in the way that a road or train line are. They are constructs that may have similarities to physical geography but they arbitrarily change at the whims of Drivers, Schedulers, Road Works, Weather conditions; even the time if day. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 12:31, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'm surprised that there hasn't been any discussion yet of municipal/public bus service coverage versus commercial bus service coverage. From List of bus routes in Bristol, it looks like even the "city, suburban, and county services" are run by private companies (in addition to the "coach services") rather than government transit authorities? I can see an argument to some extent for treating municipal transit authority bus routes (the kind you will find in American cities) as infrastructure, even tolerating some primary sourcing for the sake of completeness (and such primary sources would ultimately be produced by municipal transit authorities, and so reliable). Given the vicissitudes of public funding, service coverage to needed areas, etc., you would even expect a good degree of (local) secondary source commentary on individual routes whenever changes are proposed, at least. But is there any reason to treat commercial bus lines the same way rather than impose the standard notability requirements, and the usual summary treatment of stating that "Company X services Towns A, B, and C"? postdlf (talk) 12:06, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- I see no reason to do so. Municipal ownership and operation is only a tiny part of UK bus provision - only in Northern Ireland and a few remaining outposts. There's no difference in reliability between sources from local authorities and private companies, and local authorities tend to provide information on both anyway - even wholly commercial services have to be registered as regards timing/route details for set periods of validitiy. London aside, where buses are still run by (many) private companies even though the network is municipally designed, on the whole the only role local authorities play elsewhere in GB is to subsidise socially necessary routes not provided commercially - and these in no way can be logically seperated from the commercial networks, not least as they mostly parallel them, just in the evenings/weekends. As such, I don't think comparisons to US authorities/practices is relevant really, and to consider one system notable and the other not, would probably be a case of WP:BIAS. MickMacNee (talk) 13:53, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Prior to 1986, we had three kinds of bus operator in Great Britain - those owned by one or more of the local authorities (which were generally confined within the boundaries of the local authorities concerned, except where one LA operated services on behalf of another); the state-owned operators, which agreed their areas of operation amongst themselves; and the independent privately-owned operators. Bus operators falling into either the second or third group had to get a license from the local authority, and if a bus route crossed a local authority boundary, it needed licensing by both authorities.
- Bristol was a city with no purely municipal bus operator - all the bus services there were provided by the Bristol Omnibus Company, which was jointly owned by the state and by Bristol City Council, and whose area extended many miles from the city boundary - they had depots as far north as Cheltenham, as far east as Swindon, and as far south as Warminster, and operated even further - such as to Oxford, some 70 miles from Bristol.
- In 1986 we had Bus deregulation in Great Britain, which had several effects: the larger operators were broken down into smaller units; all the state-owned operators were sold into private hands, as were the majority of the municipal operators (a minority, such as Reading Transport, remain owned by the local authority); all the boundaries and area agreements were dissolved; licensing was relaxed but not entirely eliminated - operators could, technically, run buses wherever and whenever they liked provided that they gave the local authority eight weeks notice.
- This is why there are now so many private bus operators in Bristol: the state aren't allowed to, and the city council is discouraged from doing so. Bristol is by no means the worst case; Manchester is utterly crazy. London is now the only part of Great Britain where the local authority has any proper control over the bus routes, and even there, they're all privately-operated. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:11, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think that modern bus routes are encyclopedic. I wouldn't necessarily object to a List of bus routes in Hometown that says things like "Route 2: serves northeast end of town, running from downtown to the Foo Hospital and Public School #3", but except for WP:SIZE issues, I think such a description should would be better off in the article about the agency that operates the routes. I would not include a complete list of stops anywhere: That job should be delegated to the bus agency's own website. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:31, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Break
This RFC never closed, as it was archived instead, however it has subsequently received a further comment whilst in the archive which may inspire further comment; and as it is relevant to a current AFD it seems prudent to get it closed formally. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 12:18, 21 April 2011 (UTC) Another comment from those supporting these articles which might inspire further debate on the subject:
- If these routes have been mapped interdependently of the operator (By Local authority, or Federal mapping agency) then this map is a reliable secondary source asserting the notability of the route system.
A few archived threads on both WP:OR and WP:RS suggest that this should not be the case. but it's certainly a claim being made here. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 14:48, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- YMMV Buses are much the same as trains, planes and other forms of mass transit. The extent to which they are notable varies and our coverage will vary accordingly. Each case therefore has to be judged on its merits. London buses certainly merit detailed coverage as there are copious sources which detail their history. Colonel Warden (talk) 09:55, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
- When in question, notability is pretty easy to show. Add independent reliable secondary references to the articles. If there are severel it is notable if, not... JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 10:24, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
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- I agree with both points but several AfDs are closing where the subject does meet what would be considered notability for any other subject and are bending policy and guideline in a manner that takes extreme liberties with the intent/spirit of these guidelines. However closing admin's have little guidance on whether the liberal interpretation is a valid interpretation and have been closing on no consensus rather than a keep or delete. In general the history of an extremely large city's bus routes are liable to be the subject of reliable secondary analysis so List of bus routes in London is sourced to the Guardian Newspaper and works specifically about the history of those routes, similarly List of bus routes in Manhattan is sourced to the New York Times, as well as Histories of the routes. By contrast a small city, large conurbation, county may have sources that discuss bus transport within the area but only give a general overview of any actual routes or network - in this case a prose article similar to Buses in London, or Buses in Bristol or a history of a specific operator such as History of Lothian Buses is more appropriate than these list articles and a condensed list of important routes should be discussed in that article. The only exception would be if the size of the Prose article is already large where spinning the list out into another article may be appropriate (and I don't see this as the current case with List of bus routes in Bristol which I feel should be condensed and merged into Buses in Bristol.
- The problem appears to be that lists of Bus routes are Fancruft to some people. On one users talk page, I saw him declare that he didn't care about types of bus or the general bus history of regions but he was a big fan of learning "where buses go" - to me recording "where buses go" is an indiscriminate list of information and essentially a database both of which are things that Wikipedia is not. Repeatedly I've heard the argument that these lists fulfil our remit to be a gazetteer - hence claiming notability from the existence of a map rather than a source giving an actual discussion of the route system, but even gazetteers have a level of discrimination which varies from gazetteer to gazetteer. Some gazetteers draw the line at towns of a specific size; others document every post box; we have no policy or guideline to set that level of discrimination for our articles other than the GNG, whilst some editors claim that the GNG doesn't apply to our remit to be a gazetteer - only to our remit to be an encyclopaedia. Ideally we need some sort of guideline to establish when articles for individual routes are appropriate, when articles for lists of routes are appropriate, and when articles on the general state of bus transport within a city are appropriate and this would help to guide both those editors churning out these articles particularly in the UK where a lot of the editors creating these articles (at least 3) are extremely young and perhaps need the extra guidance, but also Admins who could use a clear guideline/policy on which to judge the keep/delete arguments. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 12:25, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
- WP:Secondary does not mean independent. If someone unrelated to the transit operator creates an entirely new map from scratch, that new map is a primary source from an WP:Independent source.
- What makes something be a "secondary" source is the fact that the author based his work on stuff written by other people. "Secondary" is about how the source was created. "Independence" is about who created it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:32, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
- Is representing someone else's data in a different format without adding some sort of analysis of the data even enough to move a source from primary to secondary? I would say no, though if the bus company routelist is assumed to be primary then that is what is being claimed about the map by those defending it as a reliable secondary source. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 20:14, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
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- I think bus routes could be encyclopedic, especially if someone can figure out how they get that way. I mean, some of the lunatic bus layouts in the U.S. seem like a five year old child could think of a smarter way to arrange them to get people around, and you wonder how such bad decisions are made.
- Actually, I think that Wikipedia should abandon WP:NOTDIR. We have the servers, we have the people, we have the inclination --- just make directory articles like this, give them a special tag, or put them in a special namespace. They'll serve the public and do no harm. Those limitations in WP:NOT aren't some kind of moral crusade, but just a statement of incapacity from the earliest days of Wikipedia. Get rid of them. Wnt (talk) 08:31, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
-
┌─────────────────────────────────┘
and another AfD closes as no consensus List of bus routes in Colchester there is a need for a clear guideline on the subject . Unlike Wnt, I believe notability serves the key purpose of maintaining the signal-to-noise ratio of the encyclopaedia. Allowing directory style lists just because something is verifiable fills the encyclopaedia with articles that are of very specialist interest and may be misleading to general readers. What would people think about working together and thrashing out a potential guideline at Wikipedia:Notability_(buses)? Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 14:16, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- Let's try to avoid making a new notability guideline just because something wasn't deleted (or was deleted) to one's disliking. The problem here is understanding what WP:NOTDIR is meant to apply to. Clearly details of bus routes should be falling under that, but there's some that feel that we should have that info somewhere. (Note: I see nothing wrong with putting details of bus routes to something like WikiSource or another sister project). Maybe the better solution is a larger RFC that is to identify the role of NOTDIR with public transportation schedules, instead of trying to focus on a single AFD. --MASEM (t) 14:25, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- There already is a projects specifically tailored to (at least the UK part) on Wikia but at least one of the editors responding in this latest AfD claimed that the wiki there wasn't popular enough (seen by enough people) and I could see similar arguments appearing for any sister project. My issue isn't that something wasn't deleted (or was deleted) but that now for the 5th AfD on the subject in a row no decision whatsoever has been made. It's also the second time this RFC has been delisted and a neutral summary of the points raised by an uninvolved editor or admin may assist in showing the direction required. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 14:51, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- Since this discussion seems to have died again, is there any benefit in moving it to a centralised discussion page e.g; Wikipedia talk:Centralized discussion/Bus Routes and is there anywhere that this discussion has not been advertised that might ignite further debate? My concern is that this discussion has generally erred on the "These lists don't belong" consensus but whenever an AfD is started a whole host of editors who are not involving themselves in this debate (despite the debate being raised at the relevant wikiproject) appear and lead to no consenus being formed. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 15:55, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
Should passing WP:RFA be a prerequisite for being granted CU or OS rights ?
- Related discussion: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Make userrights self-sufficient
The question has been raised occasionally, and as of now it's not a requirement, but recent events brought this back on the table, and subsequent discussion indicate that a clarification on the issue would be desirable. The question of this RFC is: Should adminship, obtained via WP:RFA, be a requirement for being granted checkuser or oversight rights by the arbitration committee ? This excludes CU/OS rights acquired through arbcom elections (this would have to be considered in another RFC). Cenarium (talk) 23:36, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Comments
- Actually, let's make this much simpler:
1. Is adminship a pre-requisite for appointment to advanced permissions?
2. If adminship is not a pre-requisite for appointment to advanced permissions, how shall non-admin functionaries be given the ability to view deleted revisions?
- a) adding the necessary permissions to checkuser and oversight bundles
- b) creating a new userright that includes the viewdeleted permissions
Risker (talk) 00:00, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- I would prefer that we leave question 2. for later as it would be a valid question in either case since 1. should exclude arbs. Cenarium (talk) 00:14, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- I've initiated a separate discussion on the technical aspects at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Make userrights self-sufficient. –xenotalk 15:18, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, election to adminship or the Arbitration Committee should be a requirement for access to CU/OS access and the functionaries list—rather than allowing the ArbCom to appoint anyone it chooses—for two reasons: (1) the fewer eyes are on a candidate, the greater the chance of an error being made; and (2) the tools should be handed out only if needed, and an editor who isn't an active admin working in areas where they're useful, or isn't member of the ArbCom, has no need for them. SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 00:08, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
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- Adminship is not an election, or so we keep being told. More particularly, there is nothing in the RFA process that vets users as potential checkusers or oversighters. Do I take it from your comments that you have no objections to having the toolkit realigned so that there is no barrier to non-admin arbitrators? Risker (talk) 00:12, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Risker, I think we should cross that bridge when we come to it. We've never had a non-admin elected to ArbCom. If we do, the community would be saying it had no objections to that person being given CU/OS access too (Foundation rules permitting). SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 00:22, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Well, according to Cenarium on the Arbitration Committee noticeboard, since the community hadn't explicitly been asked if it was okay to change the toolkits, we'd have to go through this then. Better to discuss this once and get it over with. Risker (talk) 00:36, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Just a note about the RfC bot: I believe it posts everything before the first signature, so anything after that won't be part of the RfC. I've therefore moved Risker's comment into the next section. Hope that's okay. SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 00:27, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
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- As I said, it's a bot issue. The RfC will be posted elsewhere as the post before the first signature. SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 00:52, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- I've moved Risker's cmt because I don't see how it makes things simpler to have three questions instead of one, not mention what 'advanced permission' means, or 'functionaries', 'view-deleted', etc. Cenarium (talk) 01:16, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps because it would be best to discuss it once, rather than two or three times? Could we move this to a separate page? The village pump's purpose should typically be to point to (or transclude) the relevant discussion, not to house it entirely. –xenotalk 02:37, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- This is standard practice at VPR, and also very common at VPT. I don't think there's a need for a separate page. I suggest to later make the proposal for the change in permissions at VPR. Cenarium (talk) 12:50, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see a need to draw this out over a period of months. I am drafting a separate page for the technical implementation. –xenotalk 13:20, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- This is standard practice at VPR, and also very common at VPT. I don't think there's a need for a separate page. I suggest to later make the proposal for the change in permissions at VPR. Cenarium (talk) 12:50, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps because it would be best to discuss it once, rather than two or three times? Could we move this to a separate page? The village pump's purpose should typically be to point to (or transclude) the relevant discussion, not to house it entirely. –xenotalk 02:37, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- I've moved Risker's cmt because I don't see how it makes things simpler to have three questions instead of one, not mention what 'advanced permission' means, or 'functionaries', 'view-deleted', etc. Cenarium (talk) 01:16, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- As I said, it's a bot issue. The RfC will be posted elsewhere as the post before the first signature. SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 00:52, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
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- No, there are level headed, thoughtful, experienced users that I'd be more than willing to trust with advanced permissions that simply won't run through RfA. He might kill me for using him as an example, but I think of Chzz in these situations. Chzz is a highly dedicated and competent user, AfC would probably disintegrate into mush without him, he runs several smaller operations which most people will never see but which do a lot of good for the project, and he'll just about help anyone with anything if you ask him too. In short, he's an ideal wikipedian. He, however, is too afraid of the monster that RfA has become to go through it. Wikipedia shouldn't prevent good, talented people from acquiring advanced permissions just because they don't feel a desire to run through hell week. Being a checkuser is more about technical knowledge than it is about being able to protect pages. Serving on a committee to investigate abuse is more about trusting the committee members than it is about blocking. Admin and AUSC or CU are totally different things. Sven Manguard Wha? 00:31, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- No While RfA is certainly one vetting option, ArbCom is entirely capable and willing to vet non-administrator candidates for the advanced tools, provide the vetted candidates for a period of community feedback as long as an RfA, and select only candidates who have a level of community support consistent with the gravity of the permissions being delegated. Likewise, there are plenty of Admin functions which are unnecessary for an AUSC community member, and might even bias their objectivity, leading to the perception that the insiders are policing their own. There is no particular reason why Checkuser, for example, which has nothing to do with edits, should be handed exclusively to the same people who have been chosen for their willingness to hand out blocks, protect pages, and delete articles. Jclemens (talk) 00:47, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
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- And how would arbcom alone be able to vet candidates equally well as all the community plus arbcom ? The more eyes, the better. Moreover, the community participation in the AUSC and CU/OS appointments process is marginal, there's been only a few comments by candidates, see below for statistics. Also, AUSC doesn't 'police' admins, it 'polices' CU/OS, AUSC members themselves have CU/OS, and furthermore every arb has CU/OS rights, so the insiders are in any case choosing their own policers, and policing their own. Cenarium (talk) 01:11, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
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- The community is no less able to vet candidates for advanced priveleges simply because we hold the discussion at a page without the prefix Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/. For the most recent appointment process, we accepted comments from the community of any form, transmitted by any method - editors could have even lined up along Support/Oppose lines if they wanted to. If you have suggestions on how to increase community participation with a view to providing additional meaningful feedback about the candidates, do not hesitate to let us know. –xenotalk 01:40, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
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- That's a progress that you make the suggestion. I recognize that there is a social argument for not requiring admin rights. The problem with the appointment is that arbs would still make the final decision. Users aren't inclined to participate because their participation has no clear weight on the final decision. A possibility would be to have a confirmation vote, i.e. users need a majority of support to be confirmed as candidate, but the comparative results between confirmed candidates doesn't bind in any way the final appointments by arbcom. This incitement would provide for more participation, and therefore scrutiny, comments. Regarding AUSC, I think they should be elected during the arbcom elections. Cenarium (talk) 01:56, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
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- Well that's just it - arbitrators will always be making the final decision on CU/OS, per Foundation-wide policy. I would not be happy to learn that a significant number of people are withholding relevant comments on the candidates because they think their comments will be ignored or not have a meaningful impact on the result: this is simply not the case. –xenotalk 02:23, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
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- The WMF policy allows for community selection if desired, but I don't think it's best. I think the community should participate more, the current practice marginalizes the community participation. What do you think of a confirmation vote ? Arbcom would still make the final appointments, but it would entice for more community participation. Cenarium (talk) 02:50, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
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- "Votes" traditionally have not provided meaningful feedback to either the candidate or the committee, but I'd like to explore these ideas separately ahead of the next appointment process - especially if significant numbers of editors feel the current process marginalizes community participation (of this, I am not convinced) –xenotalk 03:11, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, because also passing RFA provides greater scrutiny and feedback. RFAs have revealed evidence of sockpuppetry, copyright violation, and other difficultly identifiable inappropriate behavior. Checkusers and oversighers have had their rights stripped by arbcom because of sockpuppetry and other inappropriate behavior, all reasonable steps should be taken to ensure that the granting of CU/OS is made with the highest possible standards. CU/OS work is also similar to admin work, just more sensitive, how a user uses admin tools can help in determining if the user would use CU/OS well. You become trusted when you're scrutinized enough and nothing is found that can make you untrustworthy. CU/OS is so highly sensitive that it requires a high level of trust, so we should ensure that candidates are scrutinized enough. RFA is an imperfect process, but it helps in providing scrutiny, the AUSC or CU/OS appointment process alone is not sufficient, as currently practiced it doesn't invite much community participation, RFA has been consulted 4 times more than the AUSC appointments page during the community consultation period [1][2]. Of course plenty of non-admins are trustworthy, but we shouldn't think that the AUSC or CU/OS appointment process are in any way less daunting than RFA, arbs ask you private questions, you need to identify to the WMF which is a significant step, people can ask questions and comment on you in public. There are also practical reasons, in order to perform their work efficiently, oversighters need to be able to delete pages. Cenarium (talk) 00:58, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
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- Erm, everyone who has had checkuser or oversight permissions removed was an administrator. Risker (talk) 01:17, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Of course, what this shows is that even with all the scrutiny that RFA provides then that Arbcom and other users provide, we still have issues. So we need to use the highest reasonable standards, which includes requiring RFA. Cenarium (talk) 01:23, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- I'd suggest it reflects more on the fact that being an administrator and being a good checkuser/oversighter are not related issues. Risker (talk) 01:41, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- If someone finds evidence that the user has sockpuppets, then it doesn't matter that he's a CU/OS or admin, he should have all rights removed. Cenarium (talk) 01:45, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Cenarium, I believe you are doing a disservice to the few users who have had the checkuser/oversight permissions removed on this project. I've been involved in all of these removals, I think, and I don't recall any that involved sockpuppetry. I believe you are thinking about another project. Risker (talk) 02:19, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- That was an example of difficultly identifiable behavioral issue, not implying anything. To clarify, of course the rights are different, but all require common standards. Greater scrutiny can provide for more likelihood to detect difficultly identifiable behavior (such as sockpuppetry, copyvios, etc), and even if the appointment process were improved considerably, the appointment process + RFA would be better. Cenarium (talk) 02:46, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- There's so much wrong with this that I'm not sure where to start. The economic concepts of diminishing returns and opportunity cost are relevant here. More and more hoops to jump through will not necessarily produce better appointments, and could even make them worse by limiting the pool of potential candidates. I would also say that CU and OS, which require users to reveal their real-world identities and provide for easy removal of privileges, already provide a superior process to RFA. Good + bad != better. And I'll stop there because otherwise I'll go all TLDR. --RL0919 (talk) 04:11, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- That was an example of difficultly identifiable behavioral issue, not implying anything. To clarify, of course the rights are different, but all require common standards. Greater scrutiny can provide for more likelihood to detect difficultly identifiable behavior (such as sockpuppetry, copyvios, etc), and even if the appointment process were improved considerably, the appointment process + RFA would be better. Cenarium (talk) 02:46, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Cenarium, I believe you are doing a disservice to the few users who have had the checkuser/oversight permissions removed on this project. I've been involved in all of these removals, I think, and I don't recall any that involved sockpuppetry. I believe you are thinking about another project. Risker (talk) 02:19, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- If someone finds evidence that the user has sockpuppets, then it doesn't matter that he's a CU/OS or admin, he should have all rights removed. Cenarium (talk) 01:45, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- I'd suggest it reflects more on the fact that being an administrator and being a good checkuser/oversighter are not related issues. Risker (talk) 01:41, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Of course, what this shows is that even with all the scrutiny that RFA provides then that Arbcom and other users provide, we still have issues. So we need to use the highest reasonable standards, which includes requiring RFA. Cenarium (talk) 01:23, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Erm, everyone who has had checkuser or oversight permissions removed was an administrator. Risker (talk) 01:17, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
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- No. Requiring admin status to get other rights is the exact opposite of the direction we should be going. We already have too many responsibilities bundled into a single status that supposedly is "no big deal". Many voters in ArbCom elections already exercise an implicit requirement of adminship for ArbCom membership (sometimes explicit, as shown in some voter guides), and now we're talking about effectively imposing this as a requirement for Audit Subcommittee appointment. This is wrong, wrong, wrong. A stable long-term governance structure requires separation of the various responsibilities and authorities involved, so that there are some checks and balances. We should be demanding that ArbCom and AUSC members give up their admin bits (if they possess them when appointed) to eliminate the blatant opportunities for bias and conflict of interest that exist in wearing multiple hats. Now I'm not expecting that anytime soon, but at the very least we can avoid throwing even more weight into the admin role and not make it a mandatory gateway to other rights. If greater community scrutiny is desired for CU and OS permissions, then we should address that directly by altering the processes for those appointments, although frankly I'm not seeing the pressing need for that. --RL0919 (talk) 01:31, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed, administrator has never been a requirement for advanced privileges and I don't see why we should start making it one now. I actually tried to give up my administrative rights at one point, but they are currently required for my duties as a bureaucrat due to objections raised to a simple technical change. I think what some administrators are forgetting is that not everyone wants to be an administrator; and further, that not everyone wants to be an administrator forever. This does not make them untrustworthy people. The fact that it is currently a technical requirement for the proper functioning of other privileges should be remedied. –xenotalk 01:48, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Yes. Sensitive tools require very trustworthy people. Such 'powers' incentivize faking identities; people have subtle personality issues. We need many eyes to help spot early warnings. I do like the separation of powers idea. I'm primarily concerned with there being a stringent vetting process; if there were a separate process with participation and standards higher than RFA, that might be OK. However, requiring existing adminship is a great way to increase scrutiny, so everyone can see how they act with admin tools. IMO "So-and-so can't pass RFA but should get more-sensitive-than-adminship powers" argument is weak: if the community doesn't trust someone with adminship than why give them greater powers? While ArbCom might have better judgment than the broader community sometimes, going against the community's wishes itself is a bad idea. ArbCom would have to put in an incredible amount of work to equal the number of eyes something like WP:RFA provides. Quarl (talk) 02:09, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- No This is most definitely a social issue, as has been pointed out by Arbitration Committee members, and just illustrates the division of opinion between administrators and non-administrators. As Risker pointed out in the other discussion, all of the users who have said yes so far are administrators themselves. I remember past discussions of this nature, such as the perennially shot down VandelFighter user right of being able to block users and not having to be an administrator. In those discussions, the majority of the opposition came from admins, because the passing of such would strip down the abilities that admins had to themselves and, thus, would bring them closer to the rest of the editors on Wikipedia. I am in full support of any divestiture of user rights so that they have to be individually applied for and are not a part of the admin package. It makes it so that there aren't so much different levels of users as there are users that work in specific fields and are trusted with the user right(s) that apply to those fields. Such a system would make much more sense and would be more appropriate, since it would make it so users didn't have rights that they never use, they would only have ones that they specifically applied for because they wished to use it in their everyday activities. It would help in the trust category because it's easier to show that a user is trustworthy for this certain right than for a user having to prove they are trustworthy for the smorgasbord of, mostly unused, user rights that admins currently have. SilverserenC 02:45, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- No - (edit conflict) a consensus view is that RfA is for use of admin tools. Hence is not just about "is this user trustworthy?" Wikipedia should be a level playing field whereever possible. Restricting roles to admins is not conducive to this pathway. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:47, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- I would amplify this by saying that RFA does not prove trustworthiness. Never has and never could under anything like the current process. What RFA shows is that a significant portion of the community is already willing to trust the successful candidate, which is entirely different from showing them to be trustworthy. Trustworthiness is best proven by giving someone a role, and then closely watching what they do with it, with the option to take the role away if it doesn't work out. In this regard the process for CU and OS is far superior to RFA. --RL0919 (talk) 04:11, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Personally, I think the current RfA system has nothing to do with trust and instead has to do with how many users like the applying editor verses how many dislike them. This is why users that are active in contentious areas (and act perfectly well there) are rarely accepted as administrators, because the opposition in those contentious areas oppose their application. SilverserenC 04:15, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- I would amplify this by saying that RFA does not prove trustworthiness. Never has and never could under anything like the current process. What RFA shows is that a significant portion of the community is already willing to trust the successful candidate, which is entirely different from showing them to be trustworthy. Trustworthiness is best proven by giving someone a role, and then closely watching what they do with it, with the option to take the role away if it doesn't work out. In this regard the process for CU and OS is far superior to RFA. --RL0919 (talk) 04:11, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- No Adminship comprises a different set of rights than CU/OS and should be judged independently. As it's quite rare for non-admins to be granted CU/OS rights, this is not a major problem. I think ArbCom is competent enough to decide who should be given CU/OS permissions and who should not. And if we trust someone with CU/OS but not sysop, then there is a serious trust problem going on in the community. I think Risker's question, "If adminship is not a pre-requisite for appointment to advanced permissions, how shall non-admin functionaries be given the ability to view deleted revisions?", is more relevant. We could, of course, simply use the
researcher
flag for non-admins who will need to see deleted revisions, or just addviewdeleted
to OS. Either makes sense to me and should not be a big deal. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 03:09, 12 April 2011 (UTC) - No. Per longstanding policy, adminship is not a big deal. Roger Davies talk 04:07, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- If only said longstanding policy were more commonly adopted... Sven Manguard Wha? 06:56, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- No. ArbCom is trustworthy enough to hand out and remove tools from people as necessary. No need to turn these permissions into the clusterfuck that RFA has become (for the record I am an administrator). --Jayron32 04:57, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Comment The unasked question is this: Does the Arbcom have the authority to make changes in the way that permissions are granted without any prior discussion with the community. I believe it does not or should not. This RfC should have occurred prior to the request for this change, and the Arbcom should practice transparency whenever confidentiality is not required. Will Beback talk 07:05, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Very strenuously no for reasons laid out at the "subsequent discussion" link. This has little to do w/ Arbcom's trustworthiness and everything to do with preventing further spread of "adminship" as a social super-user rather than a technical position. It does not suit WP:RFA to be turned into a catch all filter for every advanced permission on the wiki. Protonk (talk) 07:33, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- No. Could not have said it better than Protonk. --Pgallert (talk) 08:36, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- No, precisely per Protonk. I'll repeat Protonk's last sentence for emphasis: It does not suit RFA to be turned into a catch-all filter for every advanced permission on the wiki.—S Marshall T/C 09:43, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- No, but...' Adminship should not be a prerequisite, though a non-admin functionary seems only marginally more useful than a chocolate teapot to me. What should be a prerequisite is some form of community scrutiny—be it RfA, an ArbCom election or some other vote or !vote. Inevitably, in an appointments process like the one used for AUSC (while light on drama, which was pleasant), the only people who comment are those who have strong opinions and I think the holders of permissions considered "higher" than adminship should be subject to the kind of scrutiny admins get at RfA. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 09:48, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- No as far as prescriptive policy is concerned.
I agree that all user groups should generally be self-sufficient. For that reason alone I support changing the user group setup to make this a reality.
We can still discuss which usergroups are considered as social prerequisites before (s)elections. In my opinion, Bureaucrats and AUSC members do not need to be admin, while Arbcom members, CheckUsers, and Oversighters should be admins. However, I see no reason to actually codify a prescriptive policy: Consensus can change anyhow till the next (s)election, and since we will always get an implicit consensus if a non-admin is (s)elected for any advanced permission we do not need to decide this now. Any editor can still maintain their personal set of requirements and test in the (s)election whether consensus is on their side. In the selection that prompted this RfC, I explicitly considered and approved the non-admin candidate, presuming that the community would welcome the diversity in that auditory role (Boy was I wrong). If consensus in the feedback was with me, well, then there you have it.
To give us the freedom and flexibility to actually focus on actual suitability of a candidate, without worrying about technical framework issues or predetermined requirements (this ad-hoc culture used to be a strength of Wikipedia), we need to change our user group setup accordingly. Amalthea 09:56, 12 April 2011 (UTC) - No, another per Protonk. Jenks24 (talk) 13:20, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- No. I think we should be able to split the CU/OS bits from admin bits. Speaking as an admin, CU, and OS, one does not have to be an admin, IMO, to receive the other bits. If the purpose of receiving the bits is for oversight of other CU/OSs, or even to run a CU check or judge if something is oversight-worthy, one does not have to be an admin. However, in my opinion, to follow through on said decision, such as blocking a sockpuppteer, I think the bit is necessary. I think it is reasonable to move the viewing deleted page ability into the OS usergroup. What I remain uncertain about is the ability to actually suppress or unsupress a a revision, as this is a "deletion"-type privilege which is in the admin domain. Whilst it is irrelevant for oversight of standard privilege users (as would be the case of an AUSC member), in order to follow through on a decision if something is suppression worthy, I think that the admin bit may still be necessary (although I, as always, reserve the right to change my mind if convinced by sound reasoning and arguments). -- Avi (talk) 15:19, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- No Not only are the talents used to become an admin not relevant to those needed to be a valued checkuser etc., I think, in fact, that it makes more sense to require that CUs not retain or use admin tools otherwise. The primary requirement for becoming an admin seems to be to "avoid angering any substantial group of editors", which primarily means maintaining a low profile. This has absolutely nothing to do with the technical role of a checkuser or oversighter whatsoever. In fact, having the community "vet" a checkuser or oversighter is likely one of the poorer methods for choosing such technical positions. I note, in fact, that those with such rights are fully vetted as to actual identity and character, which is the logical primary real requirement, rather than jumping through the flawed (IMO) RfA process. Collect (talk) 15:30, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- I don't know But there'd better be some kind of effective scrutiny before handing over Checkuser rights. Something more than just a vote at Arbcom. CU is among the most sensitive positions here, there needs to be some sort of process above and beyond Arbcom giving thumbs up on an editor. RxS (talk) 15:40, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- The Arbitration Committee, in vetting and appointing the candidates, most certainly did far more to scrutinize the candidates than a simple show of thumbs. The community was also invited to scrutinize all the candidates, and still no one has explained to me how the fact that the consensus discussion was held at a page that did not begin with Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/ made it any more difficult for the community at large to provide effective scrutiny of the candidates. –xenotalk 17:16, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- The name of the page isn't the question. The question is enticing community participation and scrutiny. In the current practice, most users don't see the point of commenting and scrutinizing since they don't consider that their input will be of noticeable weight to the appointments. The election process used before provided for enticement, but I agree it's not that good because arbs should retain discretion in the final appointments. This is why I suggest a method of confirmation, which I think is a good balance and allow to enfranchises the community, so enticing participation. The community would vote on confirming or not a candidacy among the candidates preselected by arbcom, provide comments (private or public), and then arbcom would finally choose the appointees among the confirmed candidates (those who received a majority of support for confirmation, with no regard to comparative results). Cenarium (talk) 18:20, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- You keep saying that ('most users don't see the point of commenting'), but I sure would like some way of determining if your statement is accurate. In any case, improving the community participation in the process is quite peripheral the question being asked here. –xenotalk 18:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- There has been much more questions to candidates in the 2009 elections, more than 300 users voted. In the 2011 elections, there's been only a handful of questions and public comments. You will note that the most supported views in the CU/OS selection RFC were for more community participation in the process. We'll likely have a definite answer on that point when the proposal is submitted (not any time soon). The question isn't quite peripheral as if we increase participation in the process, it weakens the argument for requiring RFA. Cenarium (talk) 20:25, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- You keep saying that ('most users don't see the point of commenting'), but I sure would like some way of determining if your statement is accurate. In any case, improving the community participation in the process is quite peripheral the question being asked here. –xenotalk 18:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Xeno, as I understand it, Bahamut (the person you're talking about) received a "limited purpose CU-ship" for the purpose of auditing other CU's activity. Unless I'm mistaken, he didn't receive the authority to conduct CU investigations on his own, which is what we usually think of when giving the CU bit. 69.111.194.167 (talk) 02:13, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
- Whether AUSC members use the tools for matters unrelated to AUSC business is something that is presently left up to the subcommittee member; also, subcommittee members may have to re-run checks or to run additional checks in the course of an investigation. I'm not exactly sure what the thrust of your message is; candidates for AUSC should be scrutinized just as much, if not more, than candidates standing for straight CU or OS. –xenotalk 13:10, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
- The name of the page isn't the question. The question is enticing community participation and scrutiny. In the current practice, most users don't see the point of commenting and scrutinizing since they don't consider that their input will be of noticeable weight to the appointments. The election process used before provided for enticement, but I agree it's not that good because arbs should retain discretion in the final appointments. This is why I suggest a method of confirmation, which I think is a good balance and allow to enfranchises the community, so enticing participation. The community would vote on confirming or not a candidacy among the candidates preselected by arbcom, provide comments (private or public), and then arbcom would finally choose the appointees among the confirmed candidates (those who received a majority of support for confirmation, with no regard to comparative results). Cenarium (talk) 18:20, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- The Arbitration Committee, in vetting and appointing the candidates, most certainly did far more to scrutinize the candidates than a simple show of thumbs. The community was also invited to scrutinize all the candidates, and still no one has explained to me how the fact that the consensus discussion was held at a page that did not begin with Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/ made it any more difficult for the community at large to provide effective scrutiny of the candidates. –xenotalk 17:16, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- No - RFA is a disaster, a Lord of the Flies-esque Cool Kids Club. Put the tools in the hands they need to be in, whether or not the editor has run the gauntlet. I, for one, never will and I assume that I'm not alone in my antipathy for the whole bizarroworld RFA culture... Carrite (talk) 20:47, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- No per Protonk. - Dank (push to talk) 22:55, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- ummm .. naa Protonk puts forth a compelling narrative here. I think that if you can trust someone to do a CU, or OS, then they should be trustworthy enough to have the few extra admin. buttons, but on the other hand ... RfA has sunk some folks that would have actually been a "net positive" with the tools. Usually because of some minor "he said a bad word" or they got 1 or 2 CSD things wrong over a year ago. Don't see a reason they need to be an admin to use the tools. What WP giveith, WP can takeith away. — Ched : ? 03:04, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
- No. I agree with Protonk that we need to consciously break the assumption that sysop is a necessary step, and with Carrite that RfA is a disaster — RfA should not be the only way to be deemed 'trustworthy' by the community. Candidates for different roles need to evaluated on their suitability for the role they are seeking. John Vandenberg (chat) 07:13, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
- No - while I find it hard ot believe that anyone who never became an admin should be a CU or OS, but aomeone who gave it up while in good standing should be able to have these rights without getting back adminship. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:21, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
- No - even if someone went through RfA and failed before - for whatever reason - either they may have grown out of that 'reason' but still not want to run the gauntlet again (please be honest with (y)ourselves here - we're all human, we all occasionally do something totally bloody stupid, and it's a bloody inhumane society that doesn't give people another chance to be trusted) - it doesn't mean that they couldn't now be trusted with CU and / or OS; likewise, there are almost certainly those who would use those tools very effectively and in a totally trustworthy manner who just don't want to 'do the RfA thing'. For whatever reason. Pesky (talk) 08:57, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
- No. I fully agree with Pesky's reasoning above; there are "those who would use those tools very effectively and in a totally trustworthy manner who just don't want to 'do the RfA thing'." Guoguo12--Talk-- 19:49, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
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- If they won't do the RFA thing, why would they do the "CU election" thing? 69.111.194.167 (talk) 02:13, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
- Much, much less blood loss. RfA is a cesspool of hatred and bad faith where old grudges are rehashed and small mistakes are overblown. It's where good editors go to be told that they're shit. It's like a dominatrix without the intercourse.... you get the idea. Nowhere else on Wikipedia is nearly that bad. People don't want to go through RfA because they don't want to suffer the process more than any other reason I've seen. Sven Manguard Wha? 22:58, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
- If they won't do the RFA thing, why would they do the "CU election" thing? 69.111.194.167 (talk) 02:13, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
- Yes Only people who have passed RFA should be authorized to do CU investigations, just like (supposedly) only duly appointed judges are authorized to order wiretaps. This discussion has confused receiving the CU bit with the authority to do investigations. We normally think of investigative authority as part of the CU appointment and that authority is what I'm saying should be limited to admins. This discussion arose because of someone getting the bit without the authority, in order to serve on AUSC. That's like a phone company security officer having the technical capability to wiretap a line by accessing the phone switch, but not the authority independent of a judge's. It's fine if the appointment process for such a person is different than that for a judge. As mentioned on the "technical RFC", I'd prefer to handle this with an "auditor" role, that includes the CU bit if necessary, but the policy difference should still be there regardless of the implementation. 69.111.194.167 (talk) 02:13, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
- Added: to be clear, I think CU is a social and not just technical role. CU's have to be able to discuss behavioral sock evidence in private with editors, and that means they have to have some knowledge of the personalities and dramas in various parts of the project, without getting sucked into the dramas themselves. This takes good human judgment and not just technical skills. 69.111.194.167 (talk) 02:32, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
- No. I don't see any reason why we should tie these together. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:01, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
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Yes (needed) for CheckUser. Checkusers routinely get involved in dispute resolution, and routinely make public posts in cases of user dispute. They routinely issue (or endorse) blocks and other actions as part of their role. They act on users and IPs, not just content, and have a far more "general" role than Oversight. This is a different skill, and as we have seen with admins, can be done gracefully or poorly. For that reason I would want to see evidence of how a CU candidate conducts themselves with admin tools before letting them loose on CU.
No (not needed) for oversight/suppression. Oversight/suppression is a very much narrower and more straightforward tool and usually non-contentious. Use of the suppression tools follows the format "does text X fall into categories ABC?", and access to suppressed text is trust not interaction based. If Arbcom and the community agree that a non-admin shows required maturity of judgment and trust, then they will probably do oversighting well. As a far more rule-based and off-wiki tool mainly working on edits rather than editors, the manner of tenure of admin tools wouldn't add much evidence.
- No, This will allow us to have non-admin members on the AUSC. The following is copy pased from WP:ARBN
- I had considered putting my name in for consideration of candidacy for AUSC to represent a community (non-admin) position. I observe that adminship, while claimed to be "no-big-deal", is a "big-deal". The recent RfAs have either been gigantic landslides, schadenfreude laced inquisitons, or snowball "not a chance in hell" closes. The landslide approvals see many administrators giving weak reasoning. To me it appears like a "old boys club". Having someone on the "review" board that is not part of the club gives the community at large an opportunity to select someone they trust to review the CU/OS decisions should a objection be raised. I liken the community non-admin representative to the role of the muslim familes controlling the lock and key for the Church of the Holy Sepulchre Hasteur (talk) 18:21, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, because, in my opinion, the sorts of tasks that checkusers and oversighters perform are similar enough to administrators' tasks in order for them to require community consensus if the admin bit does. The ability to suppress material, and to view previously suppressed material is, after all, something like an enhanced version of the deletion right – hence, in order for a user to be able to petition for permission to view suppressed material, surely they must first have been given community trust to view deleted material? Checkusers have the ability to access non-public information which is of an even more sensitive nature than that which admins can look at (e.g. a user's deleted contributions). Again, if they are to be trusted not to mess around with the former, then presumably they initially need to be trusted not to mess around with the latter? Thus, re. Protonk and others, I feel that in this instance adminship would not be a bauble/hoop to jump through/etc., but rather a relevant indicator of proficiency in relevant fields. It Is Me Here t / c 11:01, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
- No per RL0919. Many admins of olde would not pass RfA today. Tijfo098 (talk) 11:11, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
- No though per HJ Mitchell, I think that a review process for CU/OS access should be setup so that the community can have a greater say. —James (Talk • Contribs) • 9:35pm • 11:35, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
- No, but my bias is clear: I was the first and only non-admin functionary on the English Wikipedia. bahamut0013wordsdeeds 16:18, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
- No. Many excellent points are made here, and I'd like to add that in a Chzz-like situation. a non-admin candidate entrusted with such tools will be under an enormous amount of scrutiny, and I'm confident that any problems would be exposed in very short order. Lankiveil (speak to me) 21:36, 19 April 2011 (UTC).
- No, adminship should not be a prerequisite. Full disclosure is in order, however, as I did not pass my RfA. Cla68 (talk) 04:25, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
- No. I don't find the reasons advanced for requiring otherwise compelling. Restricting the pool of candidates artificially doesn't seem like the sensible position. Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:44, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
- No. I considered answering the call for CU candidates a couple years ago (but withdrew due to time constraints), before I became an admin. My qualifications then and now are no different; therefore, the fact that I happened to pass RFA should have no bearing on any decision to grant CU rights to me. The same should be true for any other trusted, high-volume editor, sysop or not. ~Amatulić (talk) 23:14, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
- Yes or they should pass a CU election with the same or tougher standards as an RFA. I do think the technological limitation should be removed so that each Wiki can make their own decision and so the decision we make isn't constrained by the software. Those who need CU tools by virtue of WP:OFFICE duties should of course be exempt provided they limit the use of their tools to OFFICE-related uses and give up the tools as soon as they are no longer working for or on behalf of the foundation. Also anyone currently holding checkuser who hasn't passed an RfA or higher should vacate that role within a year or stand for a confirmation election. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 16:35, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- Yes. Same level of trust as being an admin, if not higher. There could be an exception for WMF duties or a steward giving themselves checkuser temporarily for cross-wiki issues. --Rschen7754 09:13, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
- Not at all. This will make the admins more fraternity-ish. I fear that this will lead to the CU service being more enclosed and more requests being directed outside the public space. PaoloNapolitano (talk) 18:50, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
- No Adminship is certain, defined tools, and very narrowly defined social privilege (closing certain discussions, imposing discretionary sanctions). It should not be a gate through one must pass to stand for other roles- that makes RFA and the admin flag even more significant that they already are- which is too significant already. Courcelles 19:32, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
- admin required for oversight and checkuser but forbidden from 'crats Checkusers and oversight need to be trusted as shown by a successful RFA. I believe 'crats should be required to not be an admin or a bot operator, to remain neutral. Zginder 2011-04-28T02:21Z (UTC)
- Yes to oversight. Only admins are allowed to view deleted revisions; no one should be allowed to delete material but not to undelete it; oversight is a method of deletion. Hence all oversight should be done by admins. In my opinion, RevDel is already being done much too quickly and much too often, so no expansion of the candidacy is desirable anyway. Wnt (talk) 08:25, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
- That happens precisely because the revdel tool/bit was bestowed en masse to all existing admins even though their qualifying exam did not include anything about the use of the (then non-existent) tool. So having passed the frat hazing test did not actually make them anymore competent of the use of yet-to-be-created tool(s). Tijfo098 (talk) 00:13, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
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- Maybe so, but the last thing we need is more people getting access to this thing. Finding crossed-out revisions in the article history has reached what NOTW would call No Longer Weird. I just saw a bunch at Talk:PlayStation 3, for example, because of someone's moralizing about a now thoroughly compromised encryption key. Wnt (talk) 02:09, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
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- No. Adminship should not be a requirement. In my capacity as an administrator and volunteer, not as an employee action. - Philippe 16:55, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- No adminship is an old boys club. Restricting these user rights would be propping up that fact. --Guerillero | My Talk 02:47, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Absolutely not. I still believe adminship should be "no big deal", although I realize hardly anybody really believes that anymore in practice (though many may be willing to claim it's the case). Nonetheless, I'm not willing to support any proposal that unintentionally sets a further divide between two sets of users (I say unintentionally as I know this effect is not the intention of the user proposing this). Kansan (talk) 21:27, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Scientific citation guidelines too liberal?
I was recently shown the Scientific citation guidelines page by another editor. I believe this policy may be offering too liberal a precedent for attribution and verifiability, as well as the possibility of original research. In particular, the idea that a statement need not be referenced with an inline citation because it is well-known among string theorists, or even undergraduate physics majors, does not ring true to me. Am I totally off base here, or is this article not strict enough with regard to verifiability of scientific and technical content? Andrevan@ 04:25, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- The guidelines are an attempt to halt rediculous referencing requirements for what should be non-controversial facts. Water is a liquid at room temperature.[citation needed] is a completely silly thing to do. The question is whether or not the material is contentious, rather than whether it is well known. This is actually the standard in most Wikipedia articles, but it becomes a bit problematic in scientific articles where something which is universally accepted, with no real challenge to its truthfulness, is also completely impenetrable to a lay person. For example, just to take a random non-scientific article, Emmanuel Servais makes a claim that he was the fifth Prime Minister of Luxembourg. This claim is uncited, but it isn't unverifiable; there's any of a dozen highly reliable and easy to find sources where I could look this up, and it isn't a highly contentious fact. I suppose there's nothing stopping me from providing a reference for it, but there's nothing about it that makes a reader say "That's total bullshit!", even one who has never heard of the that politician before. It is an uncontentious fact. In scientific articles, the same standard applies, however the text is often only understandable to people in the relevent field. Take Wittig_reaction#Preparation_of_simple_ylides as a random example, there is the sentence, uncited "The Wittig reagent is usually prepared from a phosphonium salt, which is in turn made by the reaction of triphenylphosphine with an alkyl halide. To form the Wittig reagent (ylide), the phosphonium salt is suspended in a solvent such as diethyl ether or THF and treated with a strong base such as phenyllithium or n-butyllithium:" Now, unless you've taken an introductory organic chemistry class, most people couldn't understand even every third word from that sentence. However, that doesn't mean it needs to be specifically sourced. The sentence can be verified quite easily since the Wittig reaction is part of literally every single organic chemistry textbook written in the past 20 years, the description of how to produce an Ylide is an unsurprising and unremarkable thing in the field of organic chemistry, and requires no special citation. That is the core of the SCG. It does not override the citation requirements of Wikipedia, it merely clarifies them for scientific articles, and makes special emphasis on the fact that just because something is only understood by a smaller subset of the general population, doesn't mean that it is contentious or likely to be challenged. --Jayron32 04:43, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- I've taken organic chemistry and that still made no sense to me. Andrevan@ 04:53, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- That's the whole point. Making sense to a specific reader is not the standard we use, anywhere at Wikipedia. I just checked the three organic chemistry texts I have at the house, and they all dicuss the Wittig reaction. I also tutor students at several local universities; in the second semester organic class (Organic II usually, or some similar name), the reaction is taught as part of the normal curriculum. I learned it 15 years ago in much the same manner. If nearly every student who makes it through to second semester Organic chemistry is taught the Wittig reaction, and has been for decades, then it is pretty much in the realm of "common knowledge", even if that actually represents a tiny fraction of the total English speaking population of the world. So there is no need to cite a fact that is so common in its field. THAT is the core behind the SCG. --Jayron32 05:04, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- I agree that "Making sense to a specific reader" is not the standard we use. But, isn't that the standard you are using to claim that we don't need to cite the Wittig reaction? If it's so common in textbooks, why not just cite one? The argument that something is common as a reason not to cite seems backward to me; all the more reason to. Andrevan@ 05:13, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- Because then, in scientific articles, every sentence or every other sentence will have to have a reference, even when most of it is obvious information that is not contentious. While the layperson may not understand it, that doesn't change the fact that they won't dispute it (or if they do, they don't have a basis for doing so, since they don't know what it means). Not having to reference common facts is generally done on Wikipedia so as not to make a dense forest of reference numbers in the text that make reading articles more difficult. SilverserenC 05:16, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- The verifiability policy is very clear that any unsourced statement may be removed if challenged. I agree we don't literally reference every sentence as it would be impractical. But I feel like the scientific citation guideline as written is creating a looser standard, where a challenge to a statement could be refuted with reasoning like, "This is common knowledge to organic chemists." Andrevan@ 05:19, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- (ec) I am of the opinion that there is a distinction between "the sky is blue" and "the sky is blue because...". The latter is 'common knowledge', but the reason why it is in text books is that it needs to be taught as opposed to being a property which is known and shared by casual observers. One solution to the "source but don't be crazy" is to use the General Reference method . . . but this invites the potential for edit warring over which textbook to use (the one I wrote or the one you wrote, for instance). Just because there are many sources for a fact (set of facts) does not mean that the fact (or set of facts) should remain unsourced; it is a matter of whether to source in-line or as a general reference. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 05:28, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- The verifiability policy is very clear that any unsourced statement may be removed if challenged. I agree we don't literally reference every sentence as it would be impractical. But I feel like the scientific citation guideline as written is creating a looser standard, where a challenge to a statement could be refuted with reasoning like, "This is common knowledge to organic chemists." Andrevan@ 05:19, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- Because then, in scientific articles, every sentence or every other sentence will have to have a reference, even when most of it is obvious information that is not contentious. While the layperson may not understand it, that doesn't change the fact that they won't dispute it (or if they do, they don't have a basis for doing so, since they don't know what it means). Not having to reference common facts is generally done on Wikipedia so as not to make a dense forest of reference numbers in the text that make reading articles more difficult. SilverserenC 05:16, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- I agree that "Making sense to a specific reader" is not the standard we use. But, isn't that the standard you are using to claim that we don't need to cite the Wittig reaction? If it's so common in textbooks, why not just cite one? The argument that something is common as a reason not to cite seems backward to me; all the more reason to. Andrevan@ 05:13, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- That's the whole point. Making sense to a specific reader is not the standard we use, anywhere at Wikipedia. I just checked the three organic chemistry texts I have at the house, and they all dicuss the Wittig reaction. I also tutor students at several local universities; in the second semester organic class (Organic II usually, or some similar name), the reaction is taught as part of the normal curriculum. I learned it 15 years ago in much the same manner. If nearly every student who makes it through to second semester Organic chemistry is taught the Wittig reaction, and has been for decades, then it is pretty much in the realm of "common knowledge", even if that actually represents a tiny fraction of the total English speaking population of the world. So there is no need to cite a fact that is so common in its field. THAT is the core behind the SCG. --Jayron32 05:04, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- I've taken organic chemistry and that still made no sense to me. Andrevan@ 04:53, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
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- The point is that, if someone is challenging a sentence for a specific reason beyond the fact that they don't understand it, then that means that it is contentious. Obviously, there are limits if they are trying to push a fringe version of what should be common knowledge, but that is unlikely to happen very often. The standard is written not to be used as an argument, it is just used in general to not oversaturate with references. If someone ends up challenging anything with a valid reason, then that means that the sentence is contentious and requires a source. This guideline is not meant to be used as a defense against that. If you feel there should be a clarification in the guideline that states that it shouldn't be used in that way, then I agree with that, but that doesn't change the fact that it documents common practice across Wikipedia in terms of common knowledge. SilverserenC 05:39, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
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- I look forward to taking organic chem next year then so i'll be able to understand such articles. :3 SilverserenC 05:16, 21 April 2011 (UTC
- I may not have much (read: any) experience in scientific articles, but it sounds questionable to me that certain editors needn't follow the same verifiability guidelines. The cited examples like "Water is a liquid at room temperature.[citation needed]" can be solved just through the use of common sense applied on a case-by-case basis. What is contended is the stuff that a lot of people may not know. No one is knocking any editor's ability to scout out misinformation or original research, but if something ever went under the radar, an uninformed reader could read it and become misinformed on the subject (or at least misinformed from a verifiable theory to original research). Everyone agrees that stuff like "Water is a liquid at room temperature." is something that needn't be referenced. However, no verifiability period seems wrong. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 05:36, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- I look forward to taking organic chem next year then so i'll be able to understand such articles. :3 SilverserenC 05:16, 21 April 2011 (UTC
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- The point is that laypeople who do not understand the topic and what is or is not common knowledge would have no reason to challenge any of the information. And this guideline is not saying to put no references in an article, it's saying that you should have a few general references on the topic for a section and that's it, since there is no need to overspam every sentence. SilverserenC 05:42, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
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- There is no actual problem concerning citations within scientific articles because any reasonable request for a citation can be satisfied. The verification policy requires that all assertions are verifiable, so if someone wanted to put {{cn}} after the Wittig reagent text mentioned in Jayron32's excellent post above, it would be fine for an editor to remove the cn and post on the talk page with a brief outline of what Jayron32 said, while mentioning one textbook with the info. If someone wanted to take it further, the matter would have to be argued out, however the Wittig reagent text is verifiable and so satisfies the V policy. While an editor might have a reason to challenge a particular assertion, if they cannot explain a basis for their challenge on the talk page other than "I didn't know that", their case is unlikely to be supported by other editors. Obviously it would be unhelpful to cite every uncontentious assertion, and an editor needs to articulate a reason before claiming that standard textbook information is contentious. Johnuniq (talk) 06:47, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
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- There's nothing that says you are forbidden from citing; its just that it isn't a requirement to do so. That is, no one should be slapping "insufficient citation" tags at the top of such articles, no one should be littering them with "cn" tags, and no one should be raising objections to them at WP:FAN because of "insufficent referencing". No one is demanding that we remove sources for statements like the Wittig reaction, or a persons status as the Prime Minister of Luxembourg, nor is anyone forbidding you from adding one. But common knowledge simply doesn't need to be cited; it never has. I could also provide a citation for "Water is a liquid at room temperature". There are hundreds of books I could cite that to; but such a fact is common knowledge and so it doesn't need a citation. Lets make this clear; this isn't about forbidding people from providing citations, its about not requiring them to provide citations. --Jayron32 13:54, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
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- It might be worth reading WP:MINREF and WP:LIKELY.
- We do encounter editors who erroneously believe that the policies require every single sentence or every single paragraph to contain an inline citation, or that anything outside their personal (usually highly limited) experience must have been pre-supplied with an inline citation. Editors (vandals?) have tagged some of the most non-contentious sentences as requiring inline citations. (Real example: Someone once tagged a sentence that said "The human hand normally has four fingers and one thumb" as requiring an inline citation.) And I've run across another editor recently who thinks that he builds the encyclopedia by deleting vast swaths of material simply because the editor who added it (possibly years ago, before <ref> tags were in use on the English Wikipedia) didn't happen to supply an WP:Inline citation before he encountered it.
- The actual standard is "VerifiABLE", as in "people are ABLE to verify that the information is not made up, using the resources at their disposal, including their own favorite web search engine, local library, WP:General references, and other sources named in the article". The policy is not "somebody else must have magically known this paragraph would confuse me and have pre-supplied an inline citation before I happened to read the page". WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:53, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not saying that literally every sentence need be cited or that I previously understood that to be the case. I'm questioning the idea that scientific articles should be held to a lower standard than other types of articles. Andrevan@ 15:28, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- They are not held to a lower standard. The same standard applies to all areas. WP:SCG simply clarifies what the standard means in the context of scientific articles. As SCG says, "This page applies the advice in the policies, and in the citing sources guideline, to referencing science and mathematics articles." — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:43, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not saying that literally every sentence need be cited or that I previously understood that to be the case. I'm questioning the idea that scientific articles should be held to a lower standard than other types of articles. Andrevan@ 15:28, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
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- But they are not held to a lower standard. The requirements set out at WP:MINREF applies to all articles, regardless of subject.
- SCG does not tell you that you may not provide inline citations. It does not tell you that scientific articles are exempt form the normal rules.
- SCG tells you to stop assuming that trivially verifiable statements are WP:LIKELY to be challenged—unless and until they are actually challenged. (It also says that WP:General references are frequently a desirable alternative to WP:Citation overkill and refspamming in these articles.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:44, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
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Please see for example Cycle notation[3]. This seems like a misuse of the policy to me. Andrevan@ 07:55, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think that is even a proper example of what we're discussing here, since the information in that article is referenced. There's no need to spam that single reference to every line in the article. It is listed as a reference and it is a reference for all of the material (since information on such a notation will cover all of it in a textbook). The tag that asks for further references is appropriate, but there is no current need for inline citations at all. SilverserenC 08:23, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
- [Edit conflict] In what way is that example a problem? This seems to be a simply definition of a notation, plus a couple of simple consequences. As such, it doesn't involve much (if any) synthesis between multiple sources (other than adding an example). I would strongly suspect that it comes from a single page or two of the cited book. The only problem I see with this example is that it doesn't give the relevant page from the book in the reference. Bluap (talk) 08:30, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
- I couldn't see grounds for putting in that tag. I think it was wrong as it was perfectly obvious where to look up the term. Though I'll edit the article to say 'circular permutation' too as well. Dmcq (talk) 12:18, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
- This is very basic material. You would be able to find the same stuff in virtually any abstract algebra text in at least as much detail as in the article. There are three textbooks listed as references. (To compare perhaps more accessible examples, this is like requesting specific citations to statements like "Animals are composed of cells", "Eukaryotic cells have nuclei" and "George Washington was the first President of the United States".) --Danger (talk) 13:20, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
- Could part of the problem be that our deep science articles are generally written at a higher level than the layperson, or at least "skip" that necessary introduction and jump immediately into the deeper material where anyone that understands it is unlikely going to worry about references for it? Take for instance the Cycle notation article. Why is it important? (I know some modern algebra but this is a rhetorical question) If it is just defining a type of notation used in modern algebra, then why do we have an article about it? We don't have articles that are purely dictionary definitions, and in the same manner we shouldn't have articles that just define a set of symbols or term of art. Why couldn't this just be under permutation since it seems only to apply to that concept?
- The reason I ask these questions is that the types of references that usually inline are the ones that answer these questions for the layperson that is not familiar with the topic and giving them more places to go look up details. Cycle notation does not have anything short of one lead sentence that does this. And thus, I certainly can understand the need to say "these details are all obvious from the references at the bottom and no need to cite", but that's tied to assuming that the article is written in the fashion we want for WP. --MASEM (t) 13:54, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
- Usually "dictionary definition" refers to an article that is nothing more than a definition, and has no reasonable chance of being expanded. Otherwise, "Cat" and "Hydrogen" would also be a dictionary definition articles, since all they do is define a certain animal and a certain element. In this case, the article is a reasonable start-length article, including a couple examples. It may stay relatively short, but that's OK. We haven't traditionally tried to merge these all into a small number of long articles. That sort of long-but-shallow article is what Britannica does, and this is one reason their coverage of math and science is so much worse than ours. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:11, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
- I grant that the article is not likely fully fleshed out, but it still has problems. "Examples" have no place in an encyclopedia - that's for textbooks - unless assured understanding of that concept is necessary to understand a larger one. So I can understand why one would have to tell the reader what cycle notation is before proceeding into permutation theory, and likely giving the lay reader an example, but this should not be done in standalone. WP has redirects and the like, so it is still possible to make long comprehensive articles but with necessarily short sections on key topics for the reader. Not to get too far off the point above, but the fact that there's little here for the layperson to learn in context even though it is a fundamental basic idea for those in the know means that the main editors are likely rejecting any requests to make changes because they don't feel it necessary, but the article begs for more or otherwise to be put into the scheme of a larger topic. --MASEM (t) 14:27, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps it should be merged with Cycle (mathematics). Andrevan@ 16:54, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
- I grant that the article is not likely fully fleshed out, but it still has problems. "Examples" have no place in an encyclopedia - that's for textbooks - unless assured understanding of that concept is necessary to understand a larger one. So I can understand why one would have to tell the reader what cycle notation is before proceeding into permutation theory, and likely giving the lay reader an example, but this should not be done in standalone. WP has redirects and the like, so it is still possible to make long comprehensive articles but with necessarily short sections on key topics for the reader. Not to get too far off the point above, but the fact that there's little here for the layperson to learn in context even though it is a fundamental basic idea for those in the know means that the main editors are likely rejecting any requests to make changes because they don't feel it necessary, but the article begs for more or otherwise to be put into the scheme of a larger topic. --MASEM (t) 14:27, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
- Usually "dictionary definition" refers to an article that is nothing more than a definition, and has no reasonable chance of being expanded. Otherwise, "Cat" and "Hydrogen" would also be a dictionary definition articles, since all they do is define a certain animal and a certain element. In this case, the article is a reasonable start-length article, including a couple examples. It may stay relatively short, but that's OK. We haven't traditionally tried to merge these all into a small number of long articles. That sort of long-but-shallow article is what Britannica does, and this is one reason their coverage of math and science is so much worse than ours. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:11, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
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- Examples do have a place in an encyclopedia. They serve fundamentally the same goal as images: they help readers figure out what we're talking about.
- To give a relevant example ;-) imagine the average parent faced with the sort of awful education-ese that is used in a curriculum writing. A Kindergarten student should "develop geometric vocabulary and skills to describe spatial relationships". The parent may have visions of trying to prove whether triangles are congruent, until you explain that this simply means the teacher is going to have a "math lesson" about the words near and far, and another about above and below, and possibly a lesson how to use a simple ruler. The examples make the meaning behind the jargon clear—which is important, if you're trying to reach everyone, rather than the people who are already experts in the subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:25, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
- WP:MTAA recommends examples as well, and featured articles like group (mathematics) include them. — Carl (CBM · talk) 11:26, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
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- I see no reason for any specific exemptions to WP:V. "Water is a liquid at room temperature" is an unsourced statement. We should have an inline reference, because that way, there's a link to whatever kind of text is authoritative for that - it might be an elementary chemistry textbook or a sophisticated scientific study exploring the range of liquid water from deep space to Jupiter's core. The crucial point for all to understand is that if we don't have a source, the statement should not be arbitrarily challenged --- it should only be challenged and removed as an unsourced statement if the editor proposing the removal actually has some iota of suspicion that it isn't true. Nobody should be removing unsourced material purely because it is unsourced, if they don't actually think it might be wrong. Wnt (talk) 08:21, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
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- The whole point of this is to make sure that articles aren't over-referenced, at least in terms of the little numbers appearing in the text. In most scientific articles, if you had to also add references for the general knowledge, you would be impeding reader's abilities to follow the text, because they would be stopped by a little blue number every other two words. A better alternative may be to have such general textbooks for such general information in a Further reading section, without a direct link to it. That was, the reference is in the article, but it wouldn't be cluttering the article text. SilverserenC 03:34, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- And, as stated above, WP:MINREF applies here, showing that WP:V doesn't apply to general knowledge, but only to quotations and contentious/challenged information. SilverserenC 03:38, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- Well, maybe this is a bridge too far. My main point was that people shouldn't be challenging things as unsourced without some actual suspicion, and it is kind of a silly example. Wnt (talk) 06:34, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- Nah, far sillier examples have been observed in the wild. The Spirit of Neutrality and Truth (talk) 02:45, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- Well, maybe this is a bridge too far. My main point was that people shouldn't be challenging things as unsourced without some actual suspicion, and it is kind of a silly example. Wnt (talk) 06:34, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Using colorized images
Is there anything in either policies or guidelines concerning the use of colorized images? Is there a preference? I don't see anything in MOS:IMAGES or WP:IUP that addresses it. This question arises out of a discussion on Talk:Jefferson Davis#Jefferson Davis Photograph and community input is welcome.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 01:38, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
- A strong case could be made that colorizing (or more generally digital restoration or editing) is original research. In most cases, I think we should prefer an uncolorized version. This walks dangerously close to the unsolvable question of, "When does digitally editing a photo constitute original research?" That's a can of worms probably best left unopened. Jason Quinn (talk) 23:01, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Userfied versions of deleted articles
See previous discussion here and here.
For how long may userfied versions of deleted articles remain in userspace? I ask as a number of these pages are showing up at WP:MFD and there is no policy which gives an explicit description as to how long they may stay. WP:FAKEARTICLE, WP:NOTWEBHOST, and WP:USERPAGE do not provide an explicit length.Smallman12q (talk) 12:19, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
- In general, I believe six months is taken a a rough (unwritten?) guideline. Of course, for problematic pages (copyright violations, BLP violations, pure promotional stuff...) immediate deletion is needed (and accepted under the WP:CSD criteria). I also think that this 6 months limit isn't restricted to userfied deleted pages, but that the same standards apply to all pages in userspace that are article-like. Even when they are no-indexed and identified as a userspace draft, they may still appear in e.g. "what links here" from the mainspace, and in general they violate WP:NOTWEBHOST. Fram (talk) 13:11, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
- (basically copy-pasted from my earlier comments) Pages deleted by consensus should not be allowed to be archived indefinitely in userspace. The point of userfication is to give an editor the opportunity to improve the article so that it meets the community's requirements. In the case of BLPs deleted on grounds of notability, I think this is even more important. Non-notable people should be left alone and not only in the article space. Thinly sourced BLPs should be deleted and not just from the article space. Note also that to most readers, there's little difference between a mainspace article and a userspace page that looks just like an article. So while we should of course tolerate userfication for purposes of editing, userfication for purposes of archival should be discouraged. As for specific time limits, 6 months sounds reasonable but I'd prefer a shorter delay for deleted BLPs. It's trivial to undelete the draft when someone wants to start working on it. Pichpich (talk) 15:05, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
- I would add another criteria, if there have been no (substantial) edits to the content in few days to month, it should be deleted. If someone wants it in user space to work on they should be working on it, if they want to work on it off line, they can copy it to text program and work on it there. If it is deleted for copyright or BLP it should not be in user space at all. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 15:41, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
- (basically copy-pasted from my earlier comments) Pages deleted by consensus should not be allowed to be archived indefinitely in userspace. The point of userfication is to give an editor the opportunity to improve the article so that it meets the community's requirements. In the case of BLPs deleted on grounds of notability, I think this is even more important. Non-notable people should be left alone and not only in the article space. Thinly sourced BLPs should be deleted and not just from the article space. Note also that to most readers, there's little difference between a mainspace article and a userspace page that looks just like an article. So while we should of course tolerate userfication for purposes of editing, userfication for purposes of archival should be discouraged. As for specific time limits, 6 months sounds reasonable but I'd prefer a shorter delay for deleted BLPs. It's trivial to undelete the draft when someone wants to start working on it. Pichpich (talk) 15:05, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
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-There are a number of nominations at WP:MFD of non-BLP articles in userspace with nominations rationales such as "Long abandoned userspace draft. It's hard to imagine that a local chapter of this type would ever survive in mainspace." These nominations which don't cite any policy making only snark remarks as to how the page wouldn't survive in mainspace. The policy regarding user page deletions should be explicit.Smallman12q (talk) 23:42, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
- Snarky? Absolutely not: the point being made is that it fails WP:NOT even as a draft. Pichpich (talk) 01:40, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- I think it all depends on whether the article in the draft is being worked on. If there has been no activity on it in a year, then I would say that an MfD should be started (or it should be moved to mainspace automatically if it appears to be good enough to stay there). But if a userspace draft is being worked on, then it doesn't matter how old the draft itself it, the user is still working on it. The only issue with a user taking too long in finishing a draft is that the chances increase that someone else will create the article in mainspace themselves. I've had that happen to me before and I had to scrap the draft. But, either way, it all depends on if it is being worked on or not. If it isn't, then I would say inactivity of editing it for a year is long enough to put it up for MfD. SilverserenC 07:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- There is no deadline. While we should not have problematic BLP articles (userfied or otherwise) which contain uncited text, if the userfied article does not violate WP:BLP, is not a BLP article, or otherwise is not spam, etc, then there is no reason to nominate it for deletion. We already have enough problems with WP:BITE and the editor retention problems Sue Gardner mentioned in the March 2011 update which was also covered in the Signpost. I can think of at least a dozen editors who have left Wikipedia after getting fed up with others MFDing article drafts in their userspace, etc. --Tothwolf (talk) 08:36, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
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- Agree. From the a voice of experience. North8000 (talk) 08:52, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
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- Okay, let me put it another way, at the very least, the user should be reminded about the existence of the userspace draft if they haven't edited it in over a year. They have may forgotten it entirely. If they feel that they are never going to complete it, then it should probably be removed or perhaps someone else can move it over to their own userspace to work on it.
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- One question I have though is what about retired users? Users that have left the project? Clearly, their userspace drafts are never going to be finished unless someone else takes them over, which is unlikely to happen if they are buried away in the retired user's userspace. Maybe we should have a different process, something called Abandoned Drafts, where we list userspace drafts that have been abandoned and let other users decide if they want to take over for the page. If no one does, then it could be put up for MfD. Does that sound like a better process for it? (Of course, if we're talking about existing users, then we can first ask them if they plan on working on it anymore and, if not, then it could be moved to this Abandoned Drafts project.) SilverserenC 09:31, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- Why would a userfied article material be subjected to a higher standard/ongoing review than all of the other stuff that users are free to keep in their sub pages? (sandboxes etc.) Conversely, I would think that housecleaning of all subpages of a clearly retired-and-gone user might be in order. North8000 (talk) 12:38, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- Among other reasons: because when we reject junk articles (spammy, non-notable, original research) but userfy them as a courtesy, the authors then sometimes link to the fake article on websites, in forum discussions, etc. as if it were a real Wikipedia entry. --Orange Mike | Talk 13:41, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- Why would a userfied article material be subjected to a higher standard/ongoing review than all of the other stuff that users are free to keep in their sub pages? (sandboxes etc.) Conversely, I would think that housecleaning of all subpages of a clearly retired-and-gone user might be in order. North8000 (talk) 12:38, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- One question I have though is what about retired users? Users that have left the project? Clearly, their userspace drafts are never going to be finished unless someone else takes them over, which is unlikely to happen if they are buried away in the retired user's userspace. Maybe we should have a different process, something called Abandoned Drafts, where we list userspace drafts that have been abandoned and let other users decide if they want to take over for the page. If no one does, then it could be put up for MfD. Does that sound like a better process for it? (Of course, if we're talking about existing users, then we can first ask them if they plan on working on it anymore and, if not, then it could be moved to this Abandoned Drafts project.) SilverserenC 09:31, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- I would suggest that *any* userfied pages be automatically no-indexed. As Orange Mike correctly points out, these can sometimes turn into a top-5 google hit for the subject, and it is often difficult for the casual reader to realise that what they're looking at isn't a "real" article. In fact, I would recommend that we move toward no-indexing user space entirely. I can say honestly that many BLP-violating pages, attack pages, pages that provide inappropriate personal information, hoaxes and other problematic pages are present in user space, but are almost completely unpatrolled or identified by our routine review and patrol processes. We have a hard enough time trying to keep this stuff out of the encyclopedia proper, and it is poor use of our editorial resources to also have to patrol and monitor user space as well. Risker (talk) 14:03, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
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- I think the "no index" is a good idea. Also a guideline that says that anything that looks like an article has a "this is not an article" notice or template at the top. North8000 (talk) 14:10, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- "no-index" only works on search engines; it doesn't help with the editors who post the fake article's URL (with or without a redirect) themselves. Thus, the aforementioned mandatory header would be helpful, if we are able to enforce the mandate that such a header be present. --Orange Mike | Talk 14:15, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- Only a tiny proportion of our readers come to Wikipedia through direct links; most come through search engines. In particular, spammers have to ensure their non-mainspace stuff shows up in search engines or they've not filled their mission. If we address the larger part of the problem, it is easier to fix the smaller part. Let us not fall into the trap of seeking a perfect solution, and start off with a 'good' solution. Risker (talk) 14:42, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- I think that the same goes for both ideas. A guideline would do much, even even if it not enforced 100% by searches etc. North8000 (talk) 14:58, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- Only a tiny proportion of our readers come to Wikipedia through direct links; most come through search engines. In particular, spammers have to ensure their non-mainspace stuff shows up in search engines or they've not filled their mission. If we address the larger part of the problem, it is easier to fix the smaller part. Let us not fall into the trap of seeking a perfect solution, and start off with a 'good' solution. Risker (talk) 14:42, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- "no-index" only works on search engines; it doesn't help with the editors who post the fake article's URL (with or without a redirect) themselves. Thus, the aforementioned mandatory header would be helpful, if we are able to enforce the mandate that such a header be present. --Orange Mike | Talk 14:15, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- I think the "no index" is a good idea. Also a guideline that says that anything that looks like an article has a "this is not an article" notice or template at the top. North8000 (talk) 14:10, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
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- There is absolutely no reason to delete a userified article merely because it is old. All the userification states is that it is not suitable, or the author does not wish it to be in, article space. There is no saving of disk space by deleting the page. There are some reasons which may be valid, but which would require investigation and evidence, there are clearly content issues (BLP, copyvio, illegal content etc) which would be near-unanimously supported by the community as reasons for deletion or partial redaction. That should be it, lacking any serious evidence of problems in this area. Rich Farmbrough, 17:56, 29 April 2011 (UTC).
- What do you think of my Abandoned Drafts project idea? I mean, the main point of userspace drafts is for them to be finished and put into mainspace, not to sit in userspace forever. Thus, the project would take Abandoned Drafts and ask other users to adopt them in order to finish them. Userspace drafts of retired users would automatically be added to the project. For userspace drafts of active users that have not been edited in over a year, they would just be asked if they were planning on finishing the article or if they would like to submit it to the project for someone else to finish. If they say they are going to finish it, then that's fine. The point would be to remind them of the draft's existence, because they could have forgotten about it if it's been a year since they've edited it.
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- There may be reasons for drafts sitting for a long time in userspace. For example, a user may be waiting for more information or better references or some holiday time to get round to sorting it out. I fully agree that the exceptions mentioned by Rich - BLP, copyvio, illegal content, potentially offensive material - should be subject to scrutiny and weeding out. But uncontentious stuff... why bother? --Bermicourt (talk) 19:30, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- If the user has a reason to keep it, then they keep it. But some users may decide that they're just not going to have the time to finish it or aren't interested anymore, so they can donate what they have to the project. And what about retired users? I don't think their drafts should just be deleted. Most of their stuff is probably worthwhile to work on. SilverserenC 19:34, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- There may be reasons for drafts sitting for a long time in userspace. For example, a user may be waiting for more information or better references or some holiday time to get round to sorting it out. I fully agree that the exceptions mentioned by Rich - BLP, copyvio, illegal content, potentially offensive material - should be subject to scrutiny and weeding out. But uncontentious stuff... why bother? --Bermicourt (talk) 19:30, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
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- I think WP:NODEADLINE and the fact that Wikipedia does not have space requirements, and we shouldn't be deleting things just because "it is taking up unnecessary space" allows userspace articles to be open as long as they want. As long as it isn't a violation of a policy like BLP or copyright, it should be fine and left alone. Deleting these test articles just further pushes new users away from editing when they can't even edit in their own userspace without getting yelled at. Even if the articles never make it into mainspace, it still allows the user to practice writing an article. Blake (Talk·Edits) 19:52, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
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- What do you think about my Abandoned Drafts project idea outlined above? It wouldn't involve deleting drafts and they would only be transferred to the project in terms of active editors if the editors themselves agreed that they wouldn't be finishing the draft. SilverserenC 20:03, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
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- I am not sure how well that would work. It would essentially be WP:Articles for Creation, which I thought was already backloged as it was. I think if a user wants to be bold and move it into their own userspace, that is fine. I don't know how you would know what userspace articles to look at. Some userspace pages aren't even suggested articles, and are things like task management, sandboxes, and games. Unless they were tagged with {{Userspace draft}} it would be hard to find. The whole process sounds messy. Blake (Talk·Edits) 20:10, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
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- What if it just focused on drafts by retired users? It's not the same as Articles for Creation, since these drafts already have some form, they aren't needing to be made from scratch. Obviously things that aren't meant to be articles wouldn't belong with the project, but it's purpose is to utilize drafts that have been abandoned by retired users, but that could still be made into a good article. Finding them is the tricky part, but it could be more of a system where it works on things that are brought to its attention. SilverserenC 20:16, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
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- And instead of asking users whether they're going to be finishing a draft, what if it just has an open submission system, where it allows users to submit links to their drafts in their userspace, since they don't feel like working on it anymore or aren't going to finish it. That part of the project would be completely optional. SilverserenC 20:16, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- I think that that would be better. I'm thinking that those are such a mixed bag of situations that it would still be a challenge. For example, where they got AFD'd for not having yet established notability. And those could include subjects truly capable of meeting it and others not. And some articles in really good shape and others in such bad shape that it would be easier to start over. North8000 (talk) 20:19, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- I think those situations could be dealt with in the long run. I just feel that we need some sort of method of dealing with userspace drafts that have no way of being finished and will end up being forgotten in some corner of the userspace by users who have left. It would also be a helpful alternative to these constant MfDs of drafts. SilverserenC 20:35, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
- As someone who's had a userspace draft I haven't touched since July, I can say that setting a hard deadline could have undesired effects. It's not for lack of desire that I haven't done anything with mine; it's a matter of getting what I would need to write about it. I have every intention of finishing it, but it's awfully hard to write about a book when one doesn't have the book in question, and it's not a particularly easy book to come by. I think that the solution of poking users a year after the last edit to their draft would be a good idea, but setting a hard deadline could lead to someone returning from a month-long wikibreak to find an MfD that wound up deleting their userspace draft they finally got the things necessary to work on. Knocking out the attack pages and vandalism is important, too; as for copyvios, can't we run one of the bots over userspace pages too? I know CorenSearchBot and VWBot run through articles pace and EarwigBot (whatever the correct number is) runs through AfC space, couldn't one of those be programmed to run through userpages? That wouldn't take out everything, but it would nip some of it at the bud. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:57, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- My idea for an Abandoned Drafts project wouldn't have any drafts be deleted (unless they broke the rules in general) and it wouldn't remove drafts that belong to users unless they don't want them anymore. So your example draft that you plan on finishing doesn't apply. It would only be if you weren't sure if you were going to finish it, that you could then donate it to the Abandoned Drafts project in order for someone else for adopt it. I'm actually thinking about making this a real idea.
- As someone who's had a userspace draft I haven't touched since July, I can say that setting a hard deadline could have undesired effects. It's not for lack of desire that I haven't done anything with mine; it's a matter of getting what I would need to write about it. I have every intention of finishing it, but it's awfully hard to write about a book when one doesn't have the book in question, and it's not a particularly easy book to come by. I think that the solution of poking users a year after the last edit to their draft would be a good idea, but setting a hard deadline could lead to someone returning from a month-long wikibreak to find an MfD that wound up deleting their userspace draft they finally got the things necessary to work on. Knocking out the attack pages and vandalism is important, too; as for copyvios, can't we run one of the bots over userspace pages too? I know CorenSearchBot and VWBot run through articles pace and EarwigBot (whatever the correct number is) runs through AfC space, couldn't one of those be programmed to run through userpages? That wouldn't take out everything, but it would nip some of it at the bud. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:57, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- I think those situations could be dealt with in the long run. I just feel that we need some sort of method of dealing with userspace drafts that have no way of being finished and will end up being forgotten in some corner of the userspace by users who have left. It would also be a helpful alternative to these constant MfDs of drafts. SilverserenC 20:35, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
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- As for your search bot and copyvios question, the issue is that, in running through article space for these subpages, it will also run through main userpages. And a lot of userpages, mine included, have things like quotes and other stuff in them that could set off the bot. I think too many false alarms would result from this idea unless we could somehow exclude main userpages, but I don't know how to set them just on subpages, since they are categorically set directly from userpages. SilverserenC 04:05, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- I'm liking the sound of that. Seems like a really good solution. As to the bot issue, I'll let those who know how they work comment. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:07, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- The inverse of this discussion, which I have seen, and is relevant; What about a good draft, with promising potential, found in what appears to be an abandoned state? I would be far more interested in a process which located these abandoned efforts not primarily for deletion, but for the good ones too; Mostly! This {{helpme}} request is why I know the inverse to also be true. My76Strat (talk) 04:54, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- My Abandoned Drafts project idea would cover that. Though it depends on whether it is an active editor. If it is a retired editor, then all of the drafts would be linked to from the project for users to adopt and move to their own userspace. If action, then it is optional, though users would be free to donate their drafts that they don't have time to finish or aren't interested anymore to the project to find someone else to take care of them. Though if it's a user that is active and wants to keep it, then that is their right to do so, though reminding them of its existence would probably prompt them to finish it up. SilverserenC 05:36, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- The inverse of this discussion, which I have seen, and is relevant; What about a good draft, with promising potential, found in what appears to be an abandoned state? I would be far more interested in a process which located these abandoned efforts not primarily for deletion, but for the good ones too; Mostly! This {{helpme}} request is why I know the inverse to also be true. My76Strat (talk) 04:54, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
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Userfied articles should be moved to the Incubator
The project should really move towards putting potential articles in the Article Incubator instead of userspace. Particularly deleted material should not be kept in userspace, but in a project with defined goals and timelines where the community encourages everyone to participate. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- Why are all of the recent responders not reading the discussion? In the discussion above, I came up with an idea for a Abandoned Drafts project, a counterpart to AfC (since partially made drafts don't really fall under the purview of AfC and they're already going to be overloaded with the non-confirmed no article creation proposal going through). This project would automatically make links to drafts that have been made by retired users, in order to have other users adopt these drafts. And then, active editors can submit drafts that they don't have time to finish or don't have an interest in anymore to the project for others to adopt as well. That way, there won't be any deletions of userspace drafts unless they violate actual policy rules for articles. What do you think of the idea? SilverserenC 06:33, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- And that's the fourth time i've explained this. *sighs* SilverserenC 06:33, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- I did read what you wrote, and it seems like most of that (functionality, if not the actual mechanics) is covered by the Incubation process. Why remake it? SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- Because no one really uses the Incubator. It's essentially defunct at this point. See the discussion here. And I feel that it would be better to start a whole new initiative that works differently rather than trying to revive a process that has been shown to not have all that much participation. We need to do something new that will get some more life into things like drafts and other stuff. SilverserenC 07:19, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- Viewed independently, there is nothing wrong with your proposal and I would endorse it. The problem is attracting participation, which is the Incubators problem, the 3O problem, the article RfC problem, etc. Any process (incubator, your proposal, anything) that forced abandoned userspace drafts along with the deleted and userfied articles into a deadlined process you'd have many desperate editors working on these things instead of both the drafts and the processes going stale. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- I think you've misunderstood. The project would only be involved in abandoned drafts from retired users and donations from active users (making them essentially self-abandoned). It won't deal with deleted articles or even ones that have been userfied, just so long as they're not attached to a retired user. And it won't have any deadlines, because the purpose is to get other users to adopt the drafts. There will probably have to be some sort of process as well to determine whether submitted articles to the project, if they've been sitting there for an excessive amount of time, are actually going to be able to be turned into valid articles (which would be the assumed reason or why they hadn't been adopted.) But that's something that can be determined at a later point in time. The whole purpose is getting it set up first and then getting some abandoned drafts into it and then we'll see about how to get people to adopt them. SilverserenC 08:01, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- Viewed independently, there is nothing wrong with your proposal and I would endorse it. The problem is attracting participation, which is the Incubators problem, the 3O problem, the article RfC problem, etc. Any process (incubator, your proposal, anything) that forced abandoned userspace drafts along with the deleted and userfied articles into a deadlined process you'd have many desperate editors working on these things instead of both the drafts and the processes going stale. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- Because no one really uses the Incubator. It's essentially defunct at this point. See the discussion here. And I feel that it would be better to start a whole new initiative that works differently rather than trying to revive a process that has been shown to not have all that much participation. We need to do something new that will get some more life into things like drafts and other stuff. SilverserenC 07:19, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- I did read what you wrote, and it seems like most of that (functionality, if not the actual mechanics) is covered by the Incubation process. Why remake it? SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- And that's the fourth time i've explained this. *sighs* SilverserenC 06:33, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- In a word: no. The Article Incubator is merely a delayed deletion mechanism, and doesn't really accomplish what I'd previously proposed (and SilverSeren reinvents in part above): a central place where not-currently-encyclopedic, yet non-problematic (no BLP/attack, copyvio, promotion) articles can exist indefinitely, searchable via explicit user selection only, awaiting the day some user will come and spiff them up and make them presentable for mainspace. Jclemens (talk) 04:27, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
Abandoned Drafts proposal
I have created the proposal for such a Wikiproject here, feel free to voice your support for the idea or add a comment to the discussion section if there's some part of it that you feel needs clarification. If you wish to be a part of it, please say so along with your support vote. Thank you. SilverserenC 05:23, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
deleting a page about me
I have a theoretical question on wikipedia policy, since I couldn't find an answer in existing discussions, disclosures. Let's say someone creates a biographical page about me. Apart from other information it contains some personal details, such as my name and place of birth, current residence, employer and past achievement. Information that links this article directly to my persona.
According to data privacy legislation in many countries, such information cannot be published without my consent. Furthermore, I may be strongly opposed to the existence of a page about myself altogether. My question is - what rights do I have to ask for the deletion of such a page, whether it infringes on my country's data privacy laws or even if I simply dont want to have a page about myself? And how do I prove that I am the person this page is about?
Thank you all for considering and perhaps forwarding this question to the powers that be at Wikipedia
Kromcuich —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kromcuich (talk • contribs) 12:13, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- Wikipedia only writes or has articles on information that has already been covered in reliable sources. Information seldom originates on wikipedia. That would be what we call original research. So if there is information that has already been published, that information can be used to build the encyclopedia, as long as it follows other guidelines as well.--JOJ Hutton 12:32, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- It should also be noted that a page written about a person, for whom the only reliable data is basic personal data, like dates of birth, employment record, etc, would be deleted on notability grounds; generally what is needed is that someone outside of Wikipedia has written extensively about their lives, in the form of reliable books, magazine articles, newspaper articles, etc. However, if you are the kind of person who routinely receives coverage in the mainstream press, if someone has written entire books about your life, etc. then Wikipedia articles will be written from those already existing sources, and likely will not be deleted. --Jayron32 12:56, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- To add to that, I believe there is a small grey area where people are only just about notable enough for an article. Such people can have articles but they don't make a big hole in the encyclopaedia if we don't have them. Those articles have occasionally been deleted by the subject's request. This would not happen if a major controversial public figure, say like Donald Rumsfeld or Henry Kissinger, were to request deletion of the articles about them. It would damage the encyclopaedia not to have coverage of such important people. The best they could hope for would be to have any unreferenced, biased or trivial coverage removed from the article and maybe to have it protected if it was particularly prone to vandalism. --DanielRigal (talk) 13:36, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- To answer the question about how you prove who you are, you would have to email Wikipedia from an address that proves who you are, such as a work email address. --DanielRigal (talk) 13:52, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- Also, Wikipedia/Wikimedia is under US jurisdiction, which lacks an equivalent to the EU's Data Protection Directive. --Cybercobra (talk) 10:04, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- To answer the question about how you prove who you are, you would have to email Wikipedia from an address that proves who you are, such as a work email address. --DanielRigal (talk) 13:52, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- To add to that, I believe there is a small grey area where people are only just about notable enough for an article. Such people can have articles but they don't make a big hole in the encyclopaedia if we don't have them. Those articles have occasionally been deleted by the subject's request. This would not happen if a major controversial public figure, say like Donald Rumsfeld or Henry Kissinger, were to request deletion of the articles about them. It would damage the encyclopaedia not to have coverage of such important people. The best they could hope for would be to have any unreferenced, biased or trivial coverage removed from the article and maybe to have it protected if it was particularly prone to vandalism. --DanielRigal (talk) 13:36, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- It should also be noted that a page written about a person, for whom the only reliable data is basic personal data, like dates of birth, employment record, etc, would be deleted on notability grounds; generally what is needed is that someone outside of Wikipedia has written extensively about their lives, in the form of reliable books, magazine articles, newspaper articles, etc. However, if you are the kind of person who routinely receives coverage in the mainstream press, if someone has written entire books about your life, etc. then Wikipedia articles will be written from those already existing sources, and likely will not be deleted. --Jayron32 12:56, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts MfD
See Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts (3rd nomination). Hopefully anyone who has any involvement anywhere in conflict resolution on WP can weigh in after thinking about it a little. Essentially I see the page as superfluous and negative and a guide to how not to do conflict resolution....Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:28, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- Please reference the same discussion on WP:AN where the nominator displayed the same notice and was thoroughly chastised for a non-neutral notification intended to influence the decision. This is the second place I've seen this notice with the original notification in place.Hasteur (talk) 18:09, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
PS: I've taken folks' advice, so MfD is closed (too polarising) discussion reactivated at Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/dispute_resolution#Streamlining_boards - hopefully a better and more collaborative venue. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:38, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
ArbCom Ban -> IRC Ban
I have been privately asked to shelve this for at least 24 hours while the immediate issue that prompted this is being dealt with. Once the immediate issue is dealt with, then I will reopen this, as it's still an issue very much worth dealing with. Sven Manguard Wha? 02:53, 2 May 2011 (UTC) |
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This is something that isn't going to be popular, but I'm giving it a go. If a user is indefinitely blocked or banned by ArbCom, and either
then I propose that the blocked user is also indefinitely blocked on WMF IRC channels. This will be a small minority of banned users, even a minority of ArbCom banned users, but it's important that we do something like this. This situation came about because an ArbCom banned user (who meets both of the above criteria) was spotted in a WMF channel earlier today. The user was banned, as far as I have been told, for pedophilic behavior, or at the very least for pretending to be someone much younger than xe actually was and for using Wikipedia and the WMF IRC channels to talk to younger users. Even if that type of person isn't posting in the threads, their very presence there, and their ability to read everything that is said by other users (who are unaware of the allegations against the banned user,) is a serious problem and a possible danger. The IRC operators frequently say 'the IRC isn't Wikipedia' and that bans don't carry over. However we as a community can demand that in these cases, where ArbCom has made the judgment that a user is using Wikipedia in ways that are dangerous or illegal, that bans do carry over. This isn't a matter of turf wars or ideology, it's a matter of safety and integrity.
The underlying issue is being looked at. Please stop making more work for Arbitrators by using multiple venues. John Vandenberg (chat) 02:47, 2 May 2011 (UTC) |
Must a template be used on more than one page?
The PlayStation Network outage article has a timeline at the very top of the article, which results in a user seeing a wall of table code before they actually get to the article head. Yesterday to make it easier for editors I moved the timeline text and turned it into a template (Template:PSN outage timeline). It made the edit window clear and easier to understand, and even received a thank you from one editor on the talk page. Last night the template was Speedy Deleted with the proposer stating that because it is only used on one page the Template must be deleted on sight. Is that correct? I can find nothing in the Speedy deletion criteria that says that. I'm also unhappy with the deletion process, deleted with a G8(dependent on a non-existent or deleted pag) after an incorrect page move. Can Speedy deletions be challenged at deletion review like a normal deletion? - X201 (talk) 07:22, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- No to your first question, yes to your second one. It expected that you tried to resolve it directly with the deleting admin before you start a DRV though. Yoenit (talk) 07:34, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- That looks like a really awful call by the admins involved. If they don't respond within 24 hours, I'd go to DRV and ask for an expedited process. Sven Manguard Wha? 07:52, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- Dunno if it falls under any CSD, but this is in line with guidelines: "Templates should not masquerade as article content in the main article namespace; instead, place the text directly into the article." I've only seen 1 case of this being disregarded. --Cybercobra (talk) 09:58, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- At the very least this should have been moved to a subpage of the article and transculded like that. The "get rid of it entirely" solution isn't constructive in this situation. Sven Manguard Wha? 17:39, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- In past cases single-use templates have not fared well at Templates for discussion, but the result is usually substituting the content back into the page that uses it, not just deleting it. And it's definitely not a speedy criterion. --RL0919 (talk) 18:13, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- At the very least this should have been moved to a subpage of the article and transculded like that. The "get rid of it entirely" solution isn't constructive in this situation. Sven Manguard Wha? 17:39, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- That is just downright destructive to delete a page with citations just because it resides in the Template namespace. It is pretty obvious that the deleting admin was more concerned with following the rules that building an encyclopedia. Quite unfortunate. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:01, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
I believe I saw someone propose something similar for the (very large) infobox at the top of Earth once. Transcluding from a subpage seems like a sensible intermediate approach, particularly if there were a way to add an 'edit this box' button to it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:37, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Single-use templates are very acceptable in several cases, but there's no real universal rule. For example {{Infobox hydrogen}} is used on hydrogen, because this cleans up the edit window significantly (likewise for all the other element infoboxes), and just makes everything easier to deal with (infobox maintenance, vandalism monitoring, etc....). But there's no {{Infobox up quark}} for the up quark article, and I think that one would be kinda useless considering it's not a very big infobox. Template:Infobox Earth would make a lot of sense to me (likewise for the other main bodies of the solar system), but not so much for some random exoplanet or star.
- For the PSN outage, I don't see why this needs to be templatified, or even presented like it currently is, that looks really awful to me. A section list seems much better to me. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 16:58, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
Errr I think you guys are forgetting something really important about the article namespace: subpages are not permitted in the article namespace so the subpage-of-article idea won't work. I, for one, support the idea of having the chunk of code turned into a template. Having a large chunk of code at the very top of the edit window would deter many potential new editors. — Preceding signed comment added by Cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 03:52, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- It looks like the folks discussing this at Template talk:Drugbox have gotten around that by making the subpage belong to the template, rather than the article. Also, they seem to have a convenient v•d•e editing button installed in the box, making editing it easier. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:38, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
ridiculous restrictive use of WP:POLITICIAN
Nicole Seah is a very prominent Opposition candidate in Singapore that has received widespread press in both pro-government (print media) and pro-Opposition (alternative media) sources, and Tin Pei Ling is a ruling party candidate that has been widely ridiculed in real life and on the street, but is likely to be elected -- er -- appointed into the parliament, despite massive backlash.
Yet, despite such massive evidence (millions of google hits!) that show these two candidates are notable -- and their contests symbolises an entire nations' elections -- such notability fails to convince some editors say that these two fail WP:POLITICIAN because they are candidates that have not been elected yet, and therefore automatically their articles must suffer through rounds of afd against common sense. I find this puzzling. Did Wikipedia change that much in my two years of absence? I don't recall such inflexible use of policy before.
What I primarily do wish to comment is that WP:POLITICIAN's guidelines really are only fit for candidates in liberal democracies. There must be an alternative set of criteria established for candidates who run under less-than-free political systems. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 19:37, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- Wouldn't this be covered by point 2: "Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage."? It's important to remember that any subject can be notable if the appropriate coverage exists. Ntsimp (talk) 19:53, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
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- There appears to be a group of several editors (who have little expertise on the subject) that opposed my suggestion to speedy close (which I withdrew but initially thought reasonable) and seem to have some sort of crusade against these two articles. I like to think myself as rational, so could there be comment on their reasoning? They assert that these two candidates have no notability at all, fail general notability guidelines and should be speedy deleted, when the local print press coverage has been hot, the online coverage massive and even the international media is commentating. I am simply exasperated. I am a veteran editor, or so I thought. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 20:02, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
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- Also, I wonder with how much zealousness these WP:POLITICIAN criteria has been applied. I would think that even American small town candidates who make significant local press (i.e. for notable, nonroutine issues, e.g. unique environmental issues that would attract scientific attention) should be included, and rightly these guidelines say they should be so, but whether these types of candidates too, face overzealous deletion. This "not notable until elected" rhetoric really puzzles me. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 20:08, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- The best solution is for you to provide as many WP:Inline citations to WP:Reliable sources as possible in the articles. It's very hard to get an article deleted if someone has gone to the trouble of naming 20 or 30 separate newspaper articles about the subject.
- Remember that reliable sources do not need to be free, online, or in English. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:46, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- The "non-notable until elected" issue is primarily to keep independent candidates of essentially no significance from writing articles about themselves to give themselves undue weight right before an election. It's not meant for someone like Doug Forrester, who although he lost his Senate bid generated a great deal of attention. However, this "non-notable until elected" meme, like other things as basic as WP:V and WP:N, gets taken literally by some people, so it's sometimes a fight to apply basic common sense. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:06, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
Suggested new user right: Ability to edit fully-protected pages in Template space
For articles, full protection means that something should not be edited.
In the template space, however, full protection just means it's used a lot. I have done a lot of work creating templates, and face the problem that many of the Templates I created I now cannot edit, and will never be able to again, because they are so widely used.
While not a problem for simple templates, for complicated templates, this means that I - the person who knows the template best - am unable to do any maintenance work anymore. There is no way I'm going through the hell of RfA, so I ask that, per the recent decoupling of the move right, that we should decouple this right as well.
Another possible right that could be decoupled is the ability to change protection settings on templates, which is often helpful, but not a necessary part of this proposal. Adam Cuerden (talk) 19:52, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- This suggestion is just a band aid. In a reasonable world, any user who needs adminship would be given it. Especially template experts. Of course, some templates should not be edited even by admins unless truly necessary (no idea how much work it would be for the servers to work through changes on the heavily transcluded metatemplates). —Кузьма討論 20:18, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- There is no chance I'm going to become an admin given Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Matthew_Hoffman, which, although withdrawn, have left me completely unwilling to engage with the Wikipedia activities which would get me through adminship, because that single arbcom case put me under so much stress I had to drop out of University. I am never again going to do anything but poke around the borders of Wikipedia, in things that suit me.
- Something like the ninth-highest search for my real name is an alt-medicine site, WikiSynergy, creating a lying attack page using that case as truth, even though Arbcom withdrew it. Arbcom havce denied any responsibility for the fact that I will now find it that much more difficult to get employment in perpetuity.
- No, I decline to help Wikipedia in the extensive way you want me to,a nd if anyone wants to blame me because User:Charles Matthews' power tip has had devastating Real-life consequenses on me, I trust they know what to do to themselves. And if you're going to try to claim I should have withdrawn from the case, note that it was my only chance to avoid having a real-life impact on my employment possibilities for the rest of my life, given my unique surname. It failed, and Arbcom are 100% at fault. Adam Cuerden (talk) 20:45, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
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- Is there a case for a lower level of adminship for more editors but with fewer rights? --Bermicourt (talk) 20:39, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- It's come up, regularly, and gotten shot down, loudly. Non-admins blame admins for being 'protective of their little club', however a good number of non-admins, myself included, are against it. I have my reasons, which I won't bore you with, but as a general statement, the issue of trust, or a distinct lack thereof, combined with a lack of a consistently effective method of removing advanced rights, will kill this before it ever gets off the ground every time it comes up. Sven Manguard Wha? 07:25, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Is there a case for a lower level of adminship for more editors but with fewer rights? --Bermicourt (talk) 20:39, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
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- Have you considered a subpage to start the formulation of the template, present it for community review, and then let an admin move the changes over (with your consultation)? It's nice to take credit for our own changes, but if it improves the community why does credit matter? Hasteur (talk) 21:00, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
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- Hasteur has the correct idea here: There are ways to fix a template without directly editing the currently visible version; copy the template code, paste it as a user subpage, fix it, use {{editrequest}}, and ask for the new version to be pasted in place. Problem solved. --Jayron32 21:24, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
- Proposed solution does not work. Many templates interact with 37 other templates. Have you looked at the backend for, say, Commons' MOTD (which I coded), WP:OPERA's Composer of the month system, also coded by me, or, to give an example which is similar to what I'm working on at the moment, the system behind POTD These things cannot be tested in isolation, and {{editrequest}} is a good way to not be able to fix bugs if anything goes wrong in very complicated code. {{editprotected}} isn't at all appropriate at a level where the next step after making a change is meticulously checking that the dozens of other templates haven't run into any trouble; there's no point making a change if you can't undo it quickly.
- Hasteur has the correct idea here: There are ways to fix a template without directly editing the currently visible version; copy the template code, paste it as a user subpage, fix it, use {{editrequest}}, and ask for the new version to be pasted in place. Problem solved. --Jayron32 21:24, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
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- If you didn't know,. I am currently (rather slowly, but that's due to the free period I had devted for it getting frittered away by Wikidrama, putting me in a very busy period, with little free time, and, once again, beginning to wonder why the hell I bother with this site) working on the Main page backend for Featured Sounds and lists. I am also Featured sound director, so need to be able to edit protected description pages for files on the main page if maintenence is needed. {{Editprotected}} doesn't even begin to be practical.
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- If anyone hasn't gathered, I have a very much love-hate relationship with Wikipedia. Love the idea of it, but have no tolerance for all the bullshit that happens anymore. Adam Cuerden (talk) 21:57, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
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- If it's all that complicated, have you considered copying it over to Test Wikipedia, where you could tweak and test the changes until you were certain that they were perfect, and then use editrequest to get the proven versions pasted in? WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:19, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
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- Support - I've been suggesting this for a while. Some users are not willing to become admins. Some users the community is unwilling to make admins. I feel I fall in both, but I am very talented with template syntax. Editprotected edits work fine and dandy when there are no subtemplates. When you get into multi-level templates, complicated infoboxes, etc, it becomes next to impossible to test out changes. Often the admins that come in to the editprotected call (unless its one of the two or three templating admins) are ignorant of the changes being made, requesting links to discussions for consensus, etc, for minor changes. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 00:31, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support Full protecting templates is to keep them from becoming vandalized or to keep someone who has no idea what they are doing from messing things up. If a person can be shown to be competent with templates I see no reason for them to be left behind. Can I please ask that if this approved that it is not handed out like candy by admins. Unlike the filemover, this could have disastrous consequence in the wrong hands. --Guerillero | My Talk 02:39, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Strongest Oppose - I'm sorry, but no. If the templates are so commonly used that they have the potential to break vast swaths of the wiki if malformed, an example MUST be created that demonstrates the change. I'm expected to trust Admins because they've been reviewed by the community and know that edits to fully protected pages are done only for very good reasons. The fact that you are wanting to improve the templates without any sort of community consensus, procedure for testing, or roadmap to completion really worries me. "Make a change and see if stuff broke" is not the right way to make improvements to critical portions of the Wiki. Hasteur (talk) 15:03, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
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- You obviously don't know how Template protection is applied. A template used on only a handful of pages is very often protected if it's considered too complicated for average users. Also, some changes are very safe: For instance, if one wants to add an alternative name for a parameter, one can safely change {{{color|}}} to {{{color|{{{colour|}}}}}} and not worry too much about surprises, if one is diligent. Adam Cuerden (talk) 00:10, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support - The {{editprotected}} system really doesn't work well for anything other than small, minor edits, or edits to simple templates. Even a little bit of complication can make using the editprotected system inefficient and difficult. It becomes difficult to explain how to conduct the change and often what the change does. Even admins who do work with templates don't work with every template; they may not know the intricacies and inner workings of templates that they're asked to edit. I agree with Guerillero though that approval for this needs to be a lot more stringent than approval for rights like rollback. This also isn't technically possible with the current software, so implementing this would require more work than rights like rollback. @Hasteur: I think you're overestimating the skill of admins when it comes to templates. While there are some that are skilled in editing templates, most aren't and template editing isn't something typically reviewed at RFA. I would be surprised if any actually followed something like that process outline. A roadmap for what might be a single edit? "Community" consensus for things that may not even be noticeable? Mr.Z-man.sock (talk) 18:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
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- Go back and read the request. The OP is talking about several templates/edits. I don't expect the Admin to understand fully the template change, I expect them to read the consensus and to understand why the change should be made. Think about it like software development. You don't randomly put changes into a production system. You test it thoroughly and take into account every potential dependancy before putting it into production. If the template can't be demonstrated prior to main space deployment and the change can't be explained to an administrator (via the editprotected template) the person wanting the change hasn't done their job correctly. Hasteur (talk) 19:59, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Why should they have to be able to fully explain the change to a non-expert? That's just unnecessary work that's a byproduct of the current inefficient system. Yes, in software development, you do test the changes before implementing them, but you also don't prevent the people who know how to do the changes from actually doing them. If testing should be a requirement, then we can have a policy that says so. But there's no reason such a policy needs to be enforced by technical limitations. The OP is not the only person who would potentially get this right. Just because his plans may not be ideal doesn't mean the proposal is a bad idea. But, on re-reading it, I don't see what the problem is there either. He's not asking to do major changes, he's asking to do maintenance work. This is a wiki, every edit is easily reversible. The world will not end if a template is broken for a few minutes. Mr.Z-man.sock (talk) 20:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed. Most admins are clueless about template syntax. I hardly see what qualifies them to perform these edits. If anything, admins should also be limited to editing high-use templates, and only users that have shown competence in the language should be allowed to modify them. None of the other skills pertinant to adminship are relevant to template editing. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 00:58, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- One would assume that most admins have the sense not to mess around with things they don't understand. Dragons flight (talk) 02:45, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Exactly. It's a matter of trust, not expertise. —David Levy 02:50, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- One would assume that most admins have the sense not to mess around with things they don't understand. Dragons flight (talk) 02:45, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed. Most admins are clueless about template syntax. I hardly see what qualifies them to perform these edits. If anything, admins should also be limited to editing high-use templates, and only users that have shown competence in the language should be allowed to modify them. None of the other skills pertinant to adminship are relevant to template editing. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 00:58, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Why should they have to be able to fully explain the change to a non-expert? That's just unnecessary work that's a byproduct of the current inefficient system. Yes, in software development, you do test the changes before implementing them, but you also don't prevent the people who know how to do the changes from actually doing them. If testing should be a requirement, then we can have a policy that says so. But there's no reason such a policy needs to be enforced by technical limitations. The OP is not the only person who would potentially get this right. Just because his plans may not be ideal doesn't mean the proposal is a bad idea. But, on re-reading it, I don't see what the problem is there either. He's not asking to do major changes, he's asking to do maintenance work. This is a wiki, every edit is easily reversible. The world will not end if a template is broken for a few minutes. Mr.Z-man.sock (talk) 20:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Go back and read the request. The OP is talking about several templates/edits. I don't expect the Admin to understand fully the template change, I expect them to read the consensus and to understand why the change should be made. Think about it like software development. You don't randomly put changes into a production system. You test it thoroughly and take into account every potential dependancy before putting it into production. If the template can't be demonstrated prior to main space deployment and the change can't be explained to an administrator (via the editprotected template) the person wanting the change hasn't done their job correctly. Hasteur (talk) 19:59, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. Such a proposal is based upon the very attitude causing the problem that it's intended to address.
Adminship, in theory, is "no big deal." It's supposed to be given to any trustworthy user who can demonstrate a legitimate need.
Some of the sysop permissions carry relatively little potential for harm (and therefore require relatively little trust), so it's sensible to split them out. In my view, the ability to edit protected pages (irrespective of namespace) is not one of them.
So if someone needs to edit protected pages, it's simply a matter of whether he/she is trustworthy. In this context, that means that we can trust him/her to not use the sysop permissions in a manner harmful to the wiki. Any user who can be trusted to edit protected templates can be trusted to handle the other sysop permissions responsibly (even if that means not editing protected pages in the other namespaces, deleting pages, blocking users, et cetera).
As noted above, most editors (including administrators) are largely unfamiliar with complex template syntax. Nonetheless, the only thing stopping administrators from fiddling with protected templates that they don't understand is their knowledge that this would be imprudent. We trust them to edit appropriately (and not edit inappropriately), which is why we've made them administrators. Likewise, I cannot envision a scenario in which someone is simultaneously trustworthy enough to edit protected templates and not trustworthy enough to possess the other sysop permissions.
The real problem (and the issue that needs to be addressed) is the recent trend toward applying arbitrary criteria to prospective administrators (e.g. "wrote x featured articles" and "performed y edits within z process"). The misguided notion that an administrator must demonstrate expertise in every area is making adminship "a big deal" and preventing trustworthy editors from possessing tools that they wouldn't misuse. It's understandable that this would fuel the sentiment that the individual permissions should be separated, but doing so only reinforces the aforementioned belief that an administrator is intended to possess expertise on (and a demonstrable need for) all of them.
Let's fix the real problem instead of working around it (and exacerbating it in the process). —David Levy 02:19, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
-
- I don't think applying a workaround exacerbates the problem. It provides a stopgap until such time as the community is willing to accept that. I've had issues with my temper, and I'm willing to accept WP:NBD. Generally, that excludes me from being provided the admin tools, regardless of whether or not I can guarantee that I'd never use those tools to leverage my position in any sort of way. This is the same reason provided every time this user right is suggested; nothing has progressed on that front, so this solution is unfortunately needed, at least in the interim. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 02:28, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Applying a workaround exacerbates the problem by seemingly legitimizing the logic behind the aforementioned adminship opposition. Every standalone permission (apart from those truly requiring a lesser degree of trust) will serve to justify this stance. ("You can just become a 'protected template editor' and a 'deleter', so you don't need adminship.") It reinforces the misguided notion that an administrator is something more than a trustworthy editor who sometimes needs to reach into a toolbox. —David Levy 02:50, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Fixing RFA is hardly a viable alternative proposal. That's like saying armies would be unnecessary if we had world peace. It's true and would be great, but short of a concrete proposal it is entirely unrealistic to expect it to happen anytime soon. Mr.Z-man 02:36, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- It isn't really an alternative proposal. It's a plea to not make the problem worse.
- A solution might not be immediately forthcoming, but I believe that it's realistically attainable unless we head down the proposed path. —David Levy 02:50, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think applying a workaround exacerbates the problem. It provides a stopgap until such time as the community is willing to accept that. I've had issues with my temper, and I'm willing to accept WP:NBD. Generally, that excludes me from being provided the admin tools, regardless of whether or not I can guarantee that I'd never use those tools to leverage my position in any sort of way. This is the same reason provided every time this user right is suggested; nothing has progressed on that front, so this solution is unfortunately needed, at least in the interim. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 02:28, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose Editing highly complex templates is not a problem of trust. We do not have template compilers (as far as I know) so I would say that any change should be performed somewhere else and tested before adding it to the template itself. Even if the user knows the code and has admin rights, he should test the changes first anyway. Cambalachero (talk) 02:58, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- This is true. I'm an administrator with knowledge in this area, but I never perform major edits to complex templates without first testing the changes (no matter how many sandboxes are required to simulate the transclusions involved). —David Levy 03:05, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Obviously if we are unsure, we do that. However, many edits are very trivial (in the sense that someone who has learned to read the syntax like english can write it in their head on the drive home) but take place over several templates. Many other major changes are initially sandbox testing, but then require a test through the hundreds of variable transclusions. Problems are then fixed as they are realized. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 03:44, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I wasn't referring to trivial edits (which I why I used the term "major edits").
It's true that unforeseen issues can arise (despite advance testing), and the ability to edit protected templates certainly is useful in such a circumstance, but anyone who can be trusted with this permission can be trusted with all of the sysop permissions. —David Levy 04:34, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I wasn't referring to trivial edits (which I why I used the term "major edits").
- Obviously if we are unsure, we do that. However, many edits are very trivial (in the sense that someone who has learned to read the syntax like english can write it in their head on the drive home) but take place over several templates. Many other major changes are initially sandbox testing, but then require a test through the hundreds of variable transclusions. Problems are then fixed as they are realized. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 03:44, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- This is true. I'm an administrator with knowledge in this area, but I never perform major edits to complex templates without first testing the changes (no matter how many sandboxes are required to simulate the transclusions involved). —David Levy 03:05, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support - The painful truth is the Sysop selection process is all but broken. Kudos to those that have been selected but all too often its as much luck as skill that's gets one through and the process and the Gauntlet frequently frustrates and confounds even the most devoted editor. Even if one does get through the process and after they finish licking their wounds from the ordeal nearly all of them focus on one or 2 things (very few use the whole suite of tools provided to them) so unbundling the various rights that admins perform not only allows editors to focus on the tasks they are interested in and are able to do but it also give users a stepping stone approach rather than unleashing the whole toolbox at once. I do agree however that perhaps some templates (Such as WikiProjectBannerShell) should possibly have a restriction level that limits to only a select few and I also agree that all testing should be done in a sandbox prior to implementation but I think we can assume that just as the previous permissions that have been granted the ones who request it will use it wisely (mostly) and those that don't will have it revoked. --Kumioko (talk) 03:35, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- The fact that "very few use the whole suite of tools provided to them" is not a problem, nor should we treat it as one or reinforce such a perception. When it comes to permissions requiring this level of trust, no "stepping stone approach" is warranted. A user either can or cannot be trusted to use the tools appropriately (which includes not using tools in a manner with which he/she lacks sufficient knowledge). —David Levy 04:34, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose Two reasons. First, I think there is a tremendous danger here. Core templates are protected for a reason, they keep a whole lot of stuff afloat. If anything, I'd restrict template edit access to an even smaller group, MediaWiki devs and other people who demonstrate a high level of aptitude with the weird-ass system Wikipedia runs on. Most admins stay away from high level templates, but it's not perfect. Second, I can gaurentee that people that are not qualified or deserving of the right will get it. There is a small but seemingly dedicated group of administrators that give userrights to people that clearly have no use for those rights, or even worse, have a demonstrated history of screwing up in areas where those userrights were related. Simply put, I don't trust anything short of a 'crat chat in a public forum to determine who would get something this powerful. Sven Manguard Wha? 03:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- This proposal is just to decouple the right, there isn't anything explicit yet about how it should be handed out. Mr.Z-man 03:59, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I also agree that it should be handed out sparingly and I also agree that there are some templates that should be tightly restricted. --Kumioko (talk) 04:01, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I won't name names, but when filemover became a right, one admin went and gave it to several people that had 0 edits to the file namespace, while another gave it to a user who applied, got rejected, hastily changed usernames, then posted a request on the admin's talk page. Had this admin done any homework, he would have seen that the user a) had been rejected for having almost no experiance, and b) had a history of getting things totally wrong, especially in the file namespace. I forget why, but the user who got the right was later indef blocked. However that does not make any better the fact that one admin gave the right out to friends who didn't qualify for and had no use for the right, while another gave it out blindly to a clearly bad candidate. That's why I don't trust this becoming a right. Sven Manguard Wha? 07:19, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose The {{editprotected}} system works fine for any types of templates, especially heavily used ones or those that have a hundred or so transclusions. Both administrators and editors alike should anyway be using the /testcase and /sandbox template subpages to make sure that they have the template correctly coded before applying any patches to it, which would then be confirmed by a relative administrator. Instead of making changes to the template outright, these features should be used more often, and changes committed to the protected template one at a time. Besides, anyone who is trusted enough to edit the ugly code of a protected template without breaking a million articles that use it should be trusted enough to have the administrator tools. :| TelCoNaSpVe :| 07:58, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Several very talented template compilers (can you edit that ugly code?) are telling you that is just not the case, and that it does not work for complicated or multi-level templates. Editprotected places a burden on the system. Even code tested a million times is almost certain to find some issues somewhere, and not being able to tinker and fix those essentially means either taking an extreme length of time to iron out any creases, or finding an admin who will stand by for an hour or two. That my friend, is a broken system. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 10:33, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Any "very talented template compiler" sufficiently trustworthy to edit the templates in question should be an administrator.
When someone is hired to clean a restaurant, a lock isn't placed on the oven to ensure that he/she won't be tempted to do some experimental baking. If someone can't be trusted to mop the kitchen floor without starting a fire, I don't want him/her anywhere near my food. —David Levy 11:32, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Any "very talented template compiler" sufficiently trustworthy to edit the templates in question should be an administrator.
- Several very talented template compilers (can you edit that ugly code?) are telling you that is just not the case, and that it does not work for complicated or multi-level templates. Editprotected places a burden on the system. Even code tested a million times is almost certain to find some issues somewhere, and not being able to tinker and fix those essentially means either taking an extreme length of time to iron out any creases, or finding an admin who will stand by for an hour or two. That my friend, is a broken system. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 10:33, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose by the reasons indicated in Wikipedia_talk:Protected_editing_rights, which I shall not repeat here. Nothing has changed since then. Ruslik_Zero 08:04, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support As someone who has been highly active in the template namespace in the past, [4] I discovered first hand that the {{editprotected}} system does not work very well. Because of how much trouble it is to even get even minor edits made to protected pages, I often don't even bother anymore.
Templates were originally protected for two reasons. One, before the job queue existed, edits to heavily transcluded templates could cause slowdown problems for the site. Two, to stop vandalism from being transcluded across large numbers of pages. When the protection of templates gets in the way of improving Wikipedia by those of us who have a very firm understanding of templates, then the system is broken.
Being an admin was also not supposed to be a big deal, however with the current political climate, more often than not the exact opposite seems to be true.
Just so others can understand my background, I've previously contributed to quite a number of heavily used/high profile templates such as {{Citation/core}}, {{Infobox software}}, etc. I also created the original {{Wikipedia-Books}} template and wrote {{Cite IETF}} after discovering we had no unified way to cite these complex documents. Here is some of the work I did on {{Citation/core}}: [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]
Would those making opposes to the proposal here be opposed to me editing these templates? --Tothwolf (talk) 13:43, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Even if you were granted 'editprotected' userright, you would still be unable to edit {{Citation/core}} because it is cascade-protected. Ruslik_Zero 15:49, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Let's go over the list. Is Tothwolf a Admin? No. Does Tothwolf have a history of well founded Template space edits? Yes. Should edit requests from Tothwolf recieve the Spanish Inquisition treatment for changes to templates? No. Should Tothwolf be given the same privilages to edit through full protection as Administrators/Bureaucrats? No. The verdict: While you don't have the authority, an admin who is familiar with the template space should be able to rubber stamp your proposed changes into final work. The delay on implementation is small enough to not be a deadline worthy concern. Hasteur (talk) 16:11, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Rubber stamping doesn't help when there are 1000s of templates which have been protected like this [10] when they need a minor tweak to fix something. Both {{Autopatrolled topicon}} and {{File Mover topicon}} have something amiss with the image size compared with {{Rollback topicon}} and {{Reviewer topicon}} but I see no point in bothering to even figure out what it is when I can't easily edit the templates to fix them. {{editprotected}} is too much trouble for minor things such as this so these days I just tend to ignore them. I'm sure I'm not the only one, either.
I also should point out that more often than not, {{editprotected}} requests sit there for hours or days before someone is willing to make the edit. The more complex the template, the more this happens. For example, see this edit request for {{Citation/core}} which I also linked above. That code had already been heavily tested in the sandbox/testcases and was ready for use. --Tothwolf (talk) 16:59, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Among templates you mentioned above {{File Mover topicon}}, {{Reviewer topicon}} and {{Cite IETF}} are not protected, {{Wikipedia-Books}} is semi-protected and, as I said above, you would not be able to edit {{Citation/core}}, even if you had 'editprotected' userright. Ruslik_Zero 18:42, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- The protection status of those specific templates isn't the issue being raised here though. The issue is the {{editprotected}} system we have in place isn't working very well and hasn't been for quite some time. (Did it ever?) The current system was never intended to prevent the improvement of Wikipedia, but that is exactly what has begun to happen when those of us who are able to work with template code end up giving up because it tends to be too much trouble to get something done. --Tothwolf (talk) 19:21, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Among templates you mentioned above {{File Mover topicon}}, {{Reviewer topicon}} and {{Cite IETF}} are not protected, {{Wikipedia-Books}} is semi-protected and, as I said above, you would not be able to edit {{Citation/core}}, even if you had 'editprotected' userright. Ruslik_Zero 18:42, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Rubber stamping doesn't help when there are 1000s of templates which have been protected like this [10] when they need a minor tweak to fix something. Both {{Autopatrolled topicon}} and {{File Mover topicon}} have something amiss with the image size compared with {{Rollback topicon}} and {{Reviewer topicon}} but I see no point in bothering to even figure out what it is when I can't easily edit the templates to fix them. {{editprotected}} is too much trouble for minor things such as this so these days I just tend to ignore them. I'm sure I'm not the only one, either.
- Would those making opposes to the proposal here be opposed to me editing these templates?
That depends. Can you be trusted to possess such a tool without misusing it? —David Levy 17:23, 4 May 2011 (UTC)- That depends how the community defines trust. Wikipedia is currently not defining trustworthy (if that is the lone requirement to be given access to these tools) as "the ability to do what you say you are going to". Right now Wikipedia defines trustworthy as not swearing, NEVER getting into confrontations, and remaining completely civil when douchebags run you ragged. In my eyes, thats being a receiver for a reaming rod. I've never once shown any kind of deceit, just a lack of willingness to cooperate with people who are uncooperative. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 21:23, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- The community's definition of "trust," whatever that may be, is as applicable to the tool in question as it is to the other sysop permissions. Technical expertise simply doesn't suffice.
Templates, like pages in other namespaces, are subject to good-faith disputes. If someone has a tendency to not get along well with fellow editors, there's reason for concern that he/she might abuse the tool to gain an advantage over users lacking it (by disregarding their concerns and editing templates in accordance with his/her personal preferences).
I don't know you well, and I don't mean to imply that this describes you. That would be for the community to decide. And if the community were to determine that you were sufficiently trustworthy, this would apply to all of the sysop permissions.
You've noted that some RfA respondents apply unreasonable criteria, and I agree. However, I must say that I would be reluctant to support the administrative candidacy of someone who refers to fellow editors as "douchebags." The language doesn't offend me, and I know how frustrating it can be to deal with "people who are uncooperative." Nonetheless, an administrator must exhibit thick skin and considerable patience in order to cope with and avoid escalating the over-the-top conflicts that inevitably arise. It isn't easy, fun or even fair, but it's absolutely essential.
The same is true of a hypothetical "protected template editor" (for whom "You don't know what you're talking about. Go away." would not be an appropriate response to a good-faith objection, irrespective of its validity or lack thereof), so an identical level of trust would be needed. And if it exists, that individual should simply be an administrator. —David Levy 22:15, 4 May 2011 (UTC)- I don't think minor formatting and cosmetic changes to a few protected templates are all that great an issue. Proposed changes that have gained significant consensus or some deep template coding should be made in batches and tested in /sandbox and /testcases, which are then implemented by a template coder with administrator status (and I'm sure we have a few of those around). Editprotected requests only have to wait a few days (WP:NOTFINISHED); it doesn't have to be done immediately. :| TelCoNaSpVe :| 05:05, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- The community's definition of "trust," whatever that may be, is as applicable to the tool in question as it is to the other sysop permissions. Technical expertise simply doesn't suffice.
- That depends how the community defines trust. Wikipedia is currently not defining trustworthy (if that is the lone requirement to be given access to these tools) as "the ability to do what you say you are going to". Right now Wikipedia defines trustworthy as not swearing, NEVER getting into confrontations, and remaining completely civil when douchebags run you ragged. In my eyes, thats being a receiver for a reaming rod. I've never once shown any kind of deceit, just a lack of willingness to cooperate with people who are uncooperative. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 21:23, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support. Perhaps ideally, this needn't be decoupled, but RFA involves much too much politics now, shutting out template maintainers with technical expertise. Contrary to what has been suggested, I don't imagine many situations where you can abuse template editing rights all that much. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 01:03, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- Expertise simply isn't the relevant criterion. As noted above, most editors with permission to edit protected templates lack sufficient knowledge to modify complex syntax. Nonetheless, we trust them to act within their capabilities and not harm the wiki. Someone lacking said trust shouldn't be editing protected pages, irrespective of his/her expertise.
Are you suggesting that good-faith disputes regarding template contents don't arise? —David Levy 02:09, 5 May 2011 (UTC)- While you are correct in that many editors aren't familiar with complex markup and functions, I can't agree with the second part of your statement. In effect what you are saying is we can't trust anyone who does not have the full admin toolkit not to get involved in a content dispute. I don't think any of us can state that everyone with the admin bit has never gotten involved in a content dispute. Your statement also has has the effect of putting those with the admin bit up on a pedestal which is contrary to WP:NOBIGDEAL.
The "content dispute" argument really isn't the point here anyway, there will always be content disputes everywhere on Wikipedia, irrespective of who holds what permission bits. What's important is how the individuals with whatever permission bits handle potential content disputes. If we are going to unbundle the editing of protected templates or pages from the rest of the admin toolkit, we would still need to figure out how we are going to assign the permission bit to those who can be trusted to use it. With a permission bit such as rollback, if someone makes a habit of misusing it, it tends to be removed. I don't see why this would be any different.
The point again is the way templates are currently protected prevents people who should otherwise be able to freely edit them from being able to quickly and efficiently make improvements and by extension improve Wikipedia. To take this a step further, by limiting the editing of many templates to administrators only, we are taking something which would otherwise be low-hanging fruit and placing it out of reach by those who should be able to reach it. See Low-hanging fruit and sustainability from the April 2011 Signpost.
The original reason for full protecting heavily used templates prior to the implementation of the job queue made sense back then, but in many cases it largely doesn't apply today. It still applies to a degree when you have a template transcluded across say 100,000 pages, (See: Wikipedia:Database reports/Templates transcluded on the most pages) because the MediaWiki software still has to rebuild all those pages if the template is edited (invalidating the cached copy), but this is still less of an issue than it once was (WP:DWAP). In a given day we probably have far more cached pages invalidated site-wide by people making minor updates to navigational templates than would be invalidated by updating a commonly transcluded infobox template.
The second reason, to help prevent disruption across a large number of pages due to template vandalism, does still apply, but it still comes at a collateral cost of preventing editors familiar with template markup from being able to quickly and efficiently update templates to help improve Wikipedia.
We also currently have the situation where the editing and maintenance of editnotices has been assigned to the accountcreators group because we don't currently have a way to protect these templates while still allowing non-administrators to edit them. This too could be addressed by re-assessing either how we protect templates (perhaps a different level of page protection?) or by unbundling the ability to edit protected templates from the admin toolkit.
One final note in reply to another comment above, changes I made to templates such as {{Citation/core}} are not exactly "minor formatting and cosmetic changes". When you edit a template such as {{Citation/core}}, you generally try to bundle as many bug fixes and changes into a single update as possible because of how widely the template is transcluded (i.e. make all your incremental changes in a sandbox and test the finished product before updating the real template). You may have a cosmetic fix or two included in the final update, but when I made changes to {{Citation/core}}, I was mainly dealing with bugs which were manifesting while using the various Cite x templates which themselves use {{Citation/core}}. While I agree that such changes must be tested with sandbox/testcases (I even do regression testing for highly complex cases; Template:Cite IETF/regression tests) it really is not appropriate to brush off changes such as those I made to {{Citation/core}} with a statement such as "I don't think minor formatting and cosmetic changes to a few protected templates are all that great an issue." --Tothwolf (talk) 12:00, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- In effect what you are saying is we can't trust anyone who does not have the full admin toolkit not to get involved in a content dispute.
No, that isn't even close to what I'm saying.
I don't think any of us can state that everyone with the admin bit has never gotten involved in a content dispute.
Content disputes are a normal, everyday occurrence. I'm sure that most (if not all) Wikipedia administrators have taken part. I certainly have.
The "content dispute" argument really isn't the point here anyway, there will always be content disputes everywhere on Wikipedia, irrespective of who holds what permission bits.
Of course there will. That's why we strive to ensure that certain participants aren't placed at an unfair disadvantage by opponents who abuse their permissions.
What's important is how the individuals with whatever permission bits handle potential content disputes.
Exactly. That's what I was saying above. That's why a particular level of trust is needed; we must be reasonably confident that the tools won't be misused (either intentionally, e.g. in a content dispute, or otherwise). I don't know why you thought that I was claiming that administrators never dispute content with other users.
Your statement also has has the effect of putting those with the admin bit up on a pedestal which is contrary to WP:NOBIGDEAL.
No, that's what this proposal does. It relies upon the assumption that adminship is a "big deal." Every rung added to the proverbial ladder serves to further elevate the aforementioned "pedestal."
Indeed, adminship is supposed to be "no big deal." It isn't an elite club to which only special people can belong. There's no need to separate the tools (apart from those truly requiring less trust, such as rollback) and distribute them to "semi-administrators" (a new class of users whose specialness falls somewhere between that of administrators and mere mortals). Such notions are rubbish.
Certain functions require a particular level of trust from the community. An administrator is simply a normal editor possessing said trust and a need for one or more sysop tools. Coding expertise, while potentially useful, is not a requirement, nor is it sensible to base any form of "semi-adminship" upon such a criterion. Anyone given permission to edit a protected page must be trusted to do so responsibly (and not do so if his/her understanding is insufficient).
If we are going to unbundle the editing of protected templates or pages from the rest of the admin toolkit, we would still need to figure out how we are going to assign the permission bit to those who can be trusted to use it.
Indeed. And my point is that anyone who can be trusted to not misuse the ability to edit protected templates can be trusted with the other sysop permissions (and therefore should be an administrator, assuming that he/she needs and desires one or more of these tools).
With a permission bit such as rollback, if someone makes a habit of misusing it, it tends to be removed. I don't see why this would be any different.
The rollback function is significantly less potent/abusable; it merely provides a convenient means (duplicable via scripts) of reverting edits. It can be used inappropriately, but it can't be used to accomplish anything that wouldn't otherwise be possible.
The point again is the way templates are currently protected prevents people who should otherwise be able to freely edit them from being able to quickly and efficiently make improvements and by extension improve Wikipedia.
All page protection has this unfortunate side effect. That's why it's of the utmost importance that users able to edit protected pages can be trusted to not use this permission to gain an unfair advantage over users unable to edit them. (This, of course, is not the only aspect of the trust placed in administrators.)
You go on to explain that some of the original reasons for protecting high-use templates no longer apply, and you suggest that we rethink the manner in which we go about protecting them. In particular, you mention the possibility of creating a new type of template protection. All of this seems reasonable to me. If the current method is outmoded, let's change it. But we should do so by modifying the protection itself, not by devising new ways around it.
A page's full protection inherently implies that it should not be directly editable (at least for the time being) by users lacking a particular level of trust. If said level of trust isn't needed, the page shouldn't be fully protected. If it is needed, the fact that someone possesses a high level of expertise simply doesn't suffice. (This is equally true of a markup expert seeking to improve a template and an astronomy expert seeking to improve an astronomy-related article protected due to a dispute.) If someone possess said level of trust (and needs and desires one or more sysop tools), he/she should be an administrator. —David Levy 18:48, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- In effect what you are saying is we can't trust anyone who does not have the full admin toolkit not to get involved in a content dispute.
- While you are correct in that many editors aren't familiar with complex markup and functions, I can't agree with the second part of your statement. In effect what you are saying is we can't trust anyone who does not have the full admin toolkit not to get involved in a content dispute. I don't think any of us can state that everyone with the admin bit has never gotten involved in a content dispute. Your statement also has has the effect of putting those with the admin bit up on a pedestal which is contrary to WP:NOBIGDEAL.
- Expertise simply isn't the relevant criterion. As noted above, most editors with permission to edit protected templates lack sufficient knowledge to modify complex syntax. Nonetheless, we trust them to act within their capabilities and not harm the wiki. Someone lacking said trust shouldn't be editing protected pages, irrespective of his/her expertise.
- Support. Full locking pages that are the frequent target of deliberate vandalism makes sense. Fully locking templates because someone might make a genuine mistake doesn't. If they get it wrong they, or anyone else, can revert it easily and quickly enough. I have found it very irritating that I cannot make simple and sensible changes to a template in my area of expertise because it's locked. I then have to find an admin, who may not understand the subject or template formatting, to make the changes for me. I can see exceptions for some basic and widely used templates that rarely change being locked, but in general full protection should be used sparingly. And, as an aside, whilst "being an admin" is supposed to be "no big deal", "becoming an admin" looks to me like a pretty difficult and bureaucratic process! --Bermicourt (talk) 19:59, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Inline defined references versus list defined references
List defined references has been available since September 2009, but isn't much used sadly. At the moment they are merely described as an advanced features under the MOS, and I think this should be changed. In my opinion all references should always be defined inside the <references/> and not inline. I've done an example conversion at Death of Osama bin Laden (had to use a script (https://gist.github.com/ec7220609b5449cc4023) due to the 20sec edit conflict window), and while it increases the page size a but, it makes the running text readable, and not the usual tagsoup that can exists when there are many references.
The steps I want to be introduced is:
- remove recommendation for inline reference definitions form mos and make list defined references the norm
- convert all current inline definitions to list definitions
- be happy when people actually can edit the pages again :)
I hope yee all agree on the issue. →AzaToth 18:07, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Personally I find it an annoyance to work with List defined references, and I only use the |group= feature for separating notes (as in asides) from the actual refs. Now it may be I work on relatively unfinished or developing articles where I am adding referencing bit by bit but it's my opinion that it should not be forced on any editor. GraemeLeggett (talk) 18:35, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- The problem I see is that when a page has become like , it's impossible for normal folks to edit. →AzaToth 18:40, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- that's more a case of using too many refs - and putting them in as one footnote - to support a short paragraph. I can show you a worse case (IMHO) than that: That and other articles done in the same style are a terrible pain to edit - you try and take out one ref as un-needed and have to hunt through the rest of the text for its definition. An article in that condition probably could use your script to make it more editable but in most articles there's not so much of a problem. GraemeLeggett (talk) 19:54, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- The problem I see is that when a page has become like , it's impossible for normal folks to edit. →AzaToth 18:40, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- I strongly prefer list defined references and have converted a number of articles to them. If you introduce the use of {{R}} at the same time, you can usually reduce page size instead of increasing it. My one hesitancy is that I don't much like scrunchedalltogetheronasingleline refs, like at Runescape, on readability grounds, but people use that form in inline cites as much as list-form. I support establishing a MoS preference for using list defined references and converting inline definitions at will. —chaos5023 (talk) 19:17, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- The biggest problem with inline refs in relation to the above is that the default editing tools that put those in place will leave no spaces between terms, thus resulting in a huge mess. These templates all allow for spaces between the argument separators "|" and "=" and other parts of the template turns. Done this way, it is usually second nature to find where the references start and stop and thus make editing easy. But it is a matter of familarity too... --MASEM (t) 21:04, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- I personally like list-defined references, but I don't think that we should have an official preference, any more than I think we should have a preference for the highly newbie-friendly parenthetical references over ref tags, or the legible plain text over citation templates. There are advantages and disadvantages to every approach. With consensus (=ask on the talk page first), editors are free to change citation systems on articles. Without consensus, you should stick with what's there, just like most similar "personal preference" issues in the English Wikipedia.
- And if you'll let me climb up on my soapbox for a minute to talk about a tangent I think far more important: One of the wonderful things about LDR is that it is 100% compatible with the old style of placing ref-tagged citations in the middle of paragraphs. IMO—and I'm sure that most of you agree with me—folks who notice someone using the "wrong" style in an LDR-using article help the encyclopedia best by silently fixing it, not by fussing at the other user for not noticing the style or not knowing how to add the new citation to it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:40, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose Not a fan at all of LDR's - Firstly they are not newbie friendly in the least bit. Secondly they force editors to have to edit the "whole" page, rather then just a section (or have to edit 2 sections -thus creating an error in the mean time between edits). I dont believe this format should be used at all in new high traffic articles were many non experienced editors will edit. Thirdly new addition later in time will most certainly not use this complicated ref system - but rather will simply add them normally then we are stuck with 2 different formats being used. Death of Osama bin Laden is a great example of were it should not be used in a newly created article - were it has already raised concerns. lots of editors (new ones at that) will/and are simply adding refs by way of <ref>ww.whatever.com</ref>. I have no problem if someone wishes to run after ever edit and convert them by hand - but will they be there in the future to covert refs over time? Moxy (talk) 20:58, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose any preference for the use of LDRs. They are difficult to work with, especially in longer articles where editing by section is the norm. References should be in the edit window right where the inline indicator is. This makes it far easier to locate and repair dead links, reuse a named ref within the same section, or simply identify a reference within the edit window. I shouldn't have to edit a section that needs a correction as well as the References section to fix anything. This creates more edits, more chances for edit conflicts, and a less clear change when reading a page diff to determine what another editor has done. Jim Miller See me | Touch me 21:16, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. We can get around the whole 'cluttered up with tags' business with a better editor, but moving to LDRs eliminates the ability to make a full edit within a single second edit - you either have to edit the whole page, or you have to edit the second then edit the references section. And that kind of jumping back and forth is asking for problems. However, {{R}} is pretty swanky and I could find several uses for it, but please, unless we're going to have a semantic citation system, don't suggest deprecating in any way inline-defined references. (And maybe I'm a little bitter that LDRs came about long before alpha groups did :P) --Golbez (talk) 21:55, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Wikipedia needs a proper citation-as-metadata (i.e. extra-article transcluded content) management system; this isn't it. Much as I like how LDRs make the markup easier to read, they have a deficiency when it comes to editing, as explained by Moxy's 2nd point. --Cybercobra (talk) 01:56, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I find it much easier to work on the text of an article that uses List Defined References, so I always use them. BTW, I wrote List-defined reference how-to guide to help make it easier for people to use list defined references. - Hydroxonium (T•C•V) 11:08, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Removing socks and SPAs from AfD discussions
I was brought to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nicole Seah by another VP posting, where I noticed several socks and SPA accounts all voting keep. Mind you, it's going to get kept anyways, but I wondered if a policy might be in order:
"In cases where any reasonable contributor can tell that comments at an AfD were left by single purpose or sock accounts and/or single purpose or sock IPs, users may move those comments to the talk page of the AfD or to the bottom of the discussion in a {{hat}} template. If comments are moved to a talk page, a note must be left at the main AfD page."
This will save us all a bit of time and sanity, as sorting through a long discussion where half the votes are tainted is somewhat maddening.
Thoughts? Sven Manguard Wha? 07:42, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Can easily become an excuse to ignore new users and IP adresses completely, definitly a bad idea. If you really have problems with socks contact a checkuser and ask him to clean it up (I have seen that done before). Yoenit (talk) 07:56, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I could agree about socks, but only if they have been banned already since they made the vote (because how would you know they were socks otherwise?). Actually, I believe it's already common practice to put a
strikethrough votes that have been made by identified socks. Even to nominators of AfDs, if they turn out to be socks. But I definitely don't agree about SPAs, because even if they focus only on a single area, that doesn't mean their vote and reasoning isn't valid. Doing such to SPAs seems like a method of silencing those that may know most about the subject in order to get the AfDs passed as Delete. SilverserenC 08:02, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- This gives the appearance of invalidating comments made by SPAs, even if they were made in good faith, and furthermore it gives “autoconfirmed” users more “power” over confirmed users and IP editors. The simple SPA tag at the end of the comments is enough to indicate to the closing administrator to discount a few votes or note that it has less weight in a deletion discussion. And some SPAs even make valid points about articles too! C.f. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gemma Mewse. Moving the comments to the talkpage would just complicate things and basically hide them from administrator review, if the sysops aren’t careful enough. In all, this is a Bad Idea™. :| TelCoNaSpVe :| 08:08, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I can see this working for socks, open proxies, and/or banned users (see WT:MOSFLAG for an example of the latter), whether sitebanned or topic banned from commenting in that area. Beyond that, it becomes a bit of a slippery slope. But in those three instances, it makes perfect sense to collapse their comments. Just my thoughts, though. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 15:32, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- (EC)If the SPAs are making ill formed !votes, challenge them to point at the specific Wikipedia policy that justifies their viewpoint. 90% of these SPAs will be unable to do this and it also has the benefit of demonstrating to the closing editor (whether Keep or Delete) that the viewpoint the SPA is trying to advocate is not supported by policy and therefore should be minimized in the final evaluation of consensus. If the same user shows up on multiple AfDs in the same context consider putting a SPA template tag on their comment to draw the attention of the closer to the fact that the viewpoint is made by someone who has a controversial viewpoint Hasteur (talk) 15:38, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Hmm, this is my bad. When I said SPA, I meant that the single purpose of the account was to vote in that one AfD; i.e. that someone posted about the AfD elsewhere and a bunch of people created accounts just to vote keep (meatpuppetry). I did not mean SPA as in a person that works only in politics areas but has a history of working on Wikipedia, I only meant the one shot accounts. Sven Manguard Wha? 01:56, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- Interaction between Wikipedians and non-Wikipedians (SPAs in AFDs) is already one of the more controversial areas, the recent Old Man Murray debacle comes to mind (Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2011-03-07/Deletion controversy). If SPAs are well-meaning and willing to provide sources/expertise to Wikipedia, we should take their opinions into account. Courtesy should be extended to SPAs in IPs first, and some Wikipedia terms - Meatpuppet especially - can sound insulting. Complete ignoring or removing SPA votes might well harm Wikipedia in the long term. MKFI (talk) 12:10, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- Hmm, this is my bad. When I said SPA, I meant that the single purpose of the account was to vote in that one AfD; i.e. that someone posted about the AfD elsewhere and a bunch of people created accounts just to vote keep (meatpuppetry). I did not mean SPA as in a person that works only in politics areas but has a history of working on Wikipedia, I only meant the one shot accounts. Sven Manguard Wha? 01:56, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- You can tag such !votes with {{spa}}. There is absolutely no need to hide the brand-new account's comments from other editors or from the closing admin. "Assuming good faith" also means assuming that your fellow editors are capable of noticing classic votestacking patterns in deletion discussions, just like we all assume you aren't blind to this behavior. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:48, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Verifiability, not truth
I disagree with Wikipedia's policy on verifiability, not truth and I think it should be modified. For example, if Wikipedia had been around in the time of Nicolaus Copernicus, the Copernican theory would have been dismissed as "not verified" although it was true. I think Wikipedia should aim to be more truthful than other media and not just follow the herd. Biscuittin (talk) 08:30, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
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Facepalm. Pray tell, how would we distinguish this "truth" from "lies"? I know it is true Jimbo is actually an alien who eats old people and can only be defeated by shaving his beard, but keep getting in conflict with heretics who tell me it is false. How would I resolve this dispute? Yoenit (talk) 08:40, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Do you have a better metric of measuring truth than majority opinion? :| TelCoNaSpVe :| 08:43, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Well, why not join the very very long discussion and host of alternative proposals at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Verifiability.2C_NOT_truth.3F.3F.3F.3F....Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:47, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- This came out of Talk:2011 Libyan civil war. Honestly Biscuittin, the only way you could actually ensure that you have the truth would be to be omnipotent, have a perfect memory and be able to maintain a constant NPOV with regard to any and all stimuli. That is just my opinion. Also, cool, we can do facepalms? =D Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 08:50, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Even worse is when people agree by consensus on a talk page that something is okay but it is just wrong. Dunno what to do about that because a lot of things in reliable sources really are just wrong. By the way I didn't know that about Jimbo that one could defeat him by cutting his beard, that really should be in his article, it is necessary information and the world should know it. Dmcq (talk) 09:39, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, we really should seek to find the WP:TRUTHiest of all the WP:TRUTHs out there. Encyclopaedias need not have verifiable information reported on in a multitude of reliable sources. Let's just report on our own subjective opinions! Because that would make us the reliablest of the reliable. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 11:02, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Truth, facts, are important to the reader. The reader is looking for facts. Verifiability is important to Wikimedia for legal concerns. The objective should be the searching out and presentation of facts with verifiable resources utilized to cover the legal aspects concerning provision of the information. ...my thoughts. Doc2234 (talk) 12:40, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- No. Verifiability is important for far more than legal concerns. Indeed for most articles verifiability is irrellevant for legal concerns. The exceptions are articles on persons or corporations where verifiability provides protection against accusations of libel. The main reason for the demand for verifiability is that we have no way to determine truth. Taemyr (talk) 12:49, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Truth, facts, are important to the reader. The reader is looking for facts. Verifiability is important to Wikimedia for legal concerns. The objective should be the searching out and presentation of facts with verifiable resources utilized to cover the legal aspects concerning provision of the information. ...my thoughts. Doc2234 (talk) 12:40, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Well, why not join the very very long discussion and host of alternative proposals at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Verifiability.2C_NOT_truth.3F.3F.3F.3F....Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:47, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
I have explained this at the essay Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth, and the opening postulation is correct: if wikipedia existed at the time of Copernicus, by the time he proposed his model Wikipedia would be telling the ptolematic model, which was by then the accepted theory. Afterwards, it would have described the scientific dispute about it, and finally the acceptance of the heliocentric model; but always one step behind the discussions held in the scientific world. That's because Wikipedia would not have then the resources to verify by itself if copernicus was a revolutionary or a mere crook; and neither today: a new and unpublished idea may be factually true, but we require that it is verifiable to make sure that it has been checked. Cambalachero (talk) 13:12, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I think the problem is that some Wikipedians are obsessed with "verifiability not truth" and push it to ridiculous extremes, or use it to support their own prejudices. On science and technology, I often find media reports which I, as a scientist, know to be wrong and it would be unethical for me to report them without questioning them. Biscuittin (talk) 13:26, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- There have been extensive discussions about this. The most common concerns about those particular three words are:
- Why the heck does a core statement about verifiability have to get into "NOT" examples?
- "not truth" is taking an backhanded swipe at the ideal of striving for accuracy. First by using the ambiguous red herring word "truth" which has multiple meanings, some of which are the opposite of accuracy. Second by dissing the concept of accuracy in a lead phrase.
- North8000 (talk) 13:32, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- The current discussions are, on the face of it, about possible ambiguity of the word "threshold" before it. IMHO the undercurrent to that discussion is possible "ownership" issues exerted through a variety of mechanisms, e.g. double standards such as requiring a much higher standard for one side's ideas to go in than others. North8000 (talk) 13:32, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I looked at [11] and the first comment I saw was from User:Sbharris who seems to be saying something similar to what I am saying. I think you will find a lot of the opposition to the current policy comes from scientists who don't like to see rubbish reported as fact just because it appears in a newspaper. Biscuittin (talk) 13:39, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Why do some people have difficulty with the word "truth"? To me, the word "truth" is completely unambiguous. Biscuittin (talk) 13:47, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- "Truth" is often used to describe opinions and dogma rather than factual material. North8000 (talk) 13:54, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- That is a misuse of the word "truth". When used correctly, the word "truth" is completely unambiguous. Biscuittin (talk) 14:02, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- "Truth" is often used to describe opinions and dogma rather than factual material. North8000 (talk) 13:54, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Biscuittin, you might like to read WP:MEDRS, which includes information about the difficulties that the mainstream media has with scientific work. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:44, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Why do some people have difficulty with the word "truth"? To me, the word "truth" is completely unambiguous. Biscuittin (talk) 13:47, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I looked at [11] and the first comment I saw was from User:Sbharris who seems to be saying something similar to what I am saying. I think you will find a lot of the opposition to the current policy comes from scientists who don't like to see rubbish reported as fact just because it appears in a newspaper. Biscuittin (talk) 13:39, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
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- As I also pointed in the essay, some topics have no "truths", like social sciences, and in others it's the truth itself which is still unknown. Cambalachero (talk) 14:07, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
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- The practical value of verifiability is that it sometimes resolves disputes. You'll never get WP editors to agree on the truth. You can sometimes get them to agree what's verifiable. But by no means always. WP:RS and WP:DUE are vague enough to be manipulated by cabals of editors in articles where the community isn't sufficiently intereste4d to study the issues carefully. Peter jackson (talk) 14:25, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
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- Responding to Biscuittin, IMHO the common meanings of the term are meanings, and common meanings of "truth" often include opinion and dogma. Tell me, if you see a writing titled "The Truth About Evolution" or "The truth about Barack Obama's citizenship" or "the truth about abortion", would you expect factual material to follow? North8000 (talk) 14:30, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
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(jumps up and down, waves arms and wolfwhistles) if anyone has read down past the wall of text, there are a bunch of alternative proposals for rewording the page at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Verifiability.2C_NOT_truth.3F.3F.3F.3F. It would be good to actually get some numbers of folks voting there. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:36, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- The alternative proposals are too complex. All that is necessary is to delete the words "not truth" because they give the impression that Wikipedia does not care about the truth. Biscuittin (talk) 14:49, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes indeed. The thing could more usefully say "Wikipedia is a summary of referenceable truths, NOT unreferenceable truths" and be more clear. Alas, the previous policy writers are in love with the word "verifiable" which needs internal definition, and they like the shock value of "not truth" and also the word "threshold" and changing this policy to be more clear by fixing these words, has been about as pleasant as proposing to relocate a graveyard. Still I advise all who are interested to go to Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Verifiability.2C_NOT_truth.3F.3F.3F.3F, read, and vote. If you find it too complex, then the discussion is not for you. Still, we have only about 20 people right now participating, and we need more eyes and brains.SBHarris 17:21, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I am afraid your pleas will fall on deaf ears. =( Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 18:28, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes indeed. The thing could more usefully say "Wikipedia is a summary of referenceable truths, NOT unreferenceable truths" and be more clear. Alas, the previous policy writers are in love with the word "verifiable" which needs internal definition, and they like the shock value of "not truth" and also the word "threshold" and changing this policy to be more clear by fixing these words, has been about as pleasant as proposing to relocate a graveyard. Still I advise all who are interested to go to Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Verifiability.2C_NOT_truth.3F.3F.3F.3F, read, and vote. If you find it too complex, then the discussion is not for you. Still, we have only about 20 people right now participating, and we need more eyes and brains.SBHarris 17:21, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
The discussion is fouled due to the use of the word truth, when the proper word is fact or factual. The 2 categories of information are Fact and/or Opinion.WFPM (talk) 15:28, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- "What is truth?" - Denimadept (talk) 15:34, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- It is what most of the people believe at the time. Biscuittin, I am a scientist too (or will be when I get my archaeology degree next year), and believe me, we deal with a lot of garbage presented as fact and truth to the masses by people with dubious credentials, and we are only saved by most of the reliable sources saying that their claims are rubbish. (six links btw) Though millions still accept it as the truth because they have been thoroughly convinced it is the truth and think know better than the actual archaeologists. Why is this relevant? Because we as editors are the same in certain cases and are in no place to think that our interpretation is better than that of the RSs (I am thinking mostly of 2011 Libyan civil war here) as we quite frankly don't know anything more than what they are telling us. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 18:28, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Truth is not "what most of the people believe at the time". That is "majority opinion". The problem is that some people are using the word "truth" in areas where it is not appropriate. Biscuittin (talk) 18:49, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I've just looked at the links in Sir William's piece above and I think he has an axe to grind. Biscuittin (talk) 18:52, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I was using that as an example. =p Every archaeologist dislikes them as they misrepresent archaeology, but you see the point. How do you properly distinguish truth from majority opinion without 20/20 hindsight in some cases and omnipotence in many others? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 18:56, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- One cannot establish truth if there are no living witnesses. Truth is personal to individuals. Biscuittin (talk) 19:01, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- So, the very nature of truth is that the idea of "what is true" is unique to every person? So everyone has their own version of it then? That is how I understood what you said. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 19:05, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes. If we want to talk about things outside the realm of the individual, we should use a different word, such as "fact". Biscuittin (talk) 19:11, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- So you say, "I disagree with Wikipedia's policy on verifiability, not truth and I think it should be modified. For example, if Wikipedia had been around in the time of Nicolaus Copernicus, the Copernican theory would have been dismissed as "not verified" although it was true. I think Wikipedia should aim to be more truthful than other media and not just follow the herd. Biscuittin (talk) 08:30, 4 May 2011 (UTC)" You want us to go based on the truth as the individual editor sees it? Their own "truth"? O_O Seems an awful lot like an opinion to me. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 19:33, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I distinguish between the words "truth" and "true". Truth is what one is supposed to tell in court. True can mean the same as "majority opinion". If I say 2+2=4, true or false? Most people will answer "true", although a few people might disagree. My problem is with the misuse of the word "truth" which, for me, can only be used in a personal sense. I suggest replacing "verifiability, not truth" with "verifiability, not certainty". Biscuittin (talk) 19:49, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- The problem is when people believe that 2+2=5, not everything is as clear cut as 2+2=4. Someone can have a completely different thought process built-in either by upbringing, propaganda, personal opinion, etc. So where you think 2+2=4, others will say it is 5, still others will say it is 22. =p You talk about truth being that which one tells in court. Now while I'm the son of two lawyers (neither of whom are trial lawyers mind you), I don't think any legal knowledge is required to know that what you hear in court is someone's own version of the truth coloured by all manner of things. There is no such thing as truth (except in mathematics at times, as you tried to point), only someone's version of the truth. As another example think of a car crash and the old saying about how when a car crashes, there are three different versions of how it happened. How do we know which is the truth? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 19:58, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I agree. One can have two witnesses in court who give different versions of the event. Each is telling the truth as he/she sees it but they have different recollections. This is why I say truth is personal and has no meaning outside the personal. The jury has to arrive at a verdict but the verdict is a verdict and not a statement of truth. Biscuittin (talk) 20:08, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- And we do that as per WP:DUE. We give the sides of each thing (except the conspiracy theories), whose wait we decide upon based on prevalence (like a jury). In the context of the the Libyan conflict, we have been trying to put the versions of events put forward by the RSs. The only people who can really give a story of what is happening are the reporters. Your objections were that these had a Western bias, and we said go find some from Xinhua and such that do not. We can't really rely on the testimony of the Libyan on the street for the truth, partly because his/her version of the truth has been coloured by propaganda from either side and he/she probably knows nothing of the bigger picture, and our interpretations of what is going on are worthless as we only know what we read in the news, hear on the tele and read on Wikipedia. So our only reliable witnesses are the reporters. The jury that is the editors decided this sort of thing a long while back. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 20:26, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- This has become a two-horse race. I think it's time we had input from other people. Biscuittin (talk) 20:39, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- And we do that as per WP:DUE. We give the sides of each thing (except the conspiracy theories), whose wait we decide upon based on prevalence (like a jury). In the context of the the Libyan conflict, we have been trying to put the versions of events put forward by the RSs. The only people who can really give a story of what is happening are the reporters. Your objections were that these had a Western bias, and we said go find some from Xinhua and such that do not. We can't really rely on the testimony of the Libyan on the street for the truth, partly because his/her version of the truth has been coloured by propaganda from either side and he/she probably knows nothing of the bigger picture, and our interpretations of what is going on are worthless as we only know what we read in the news, hear on the tele and read on Wikipedia. So our only reliable witnesses are the reporters. The jury that is the editors decided this sort of thing a long while back. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 20:26, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I agree. One can have two witnesses in court who give different versions of the event. Each is telling the truth as he/she sees it but they have different recollections. This is why I say truth is personal and has no meaning outside the personal. The jury has to arrive at a verdict but the verdict is a verdict and not a statement of truth. Biscuittin (talk) 20:08, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- The problem is when people believe that 2+2=5, not everything is as clear cut as 2+2=4. Someone can have a completely different thought process built-in either by upbringing, propaganda, personal opinion, etc. So where you think 2+2=4, others will say it is 5, still others will say it is 22. =p You talk about truth being that which one tells in court. Now while I'm the son of two lawyers (neither of whom are trial lawyers mind you), I don't think any legal knowledge is required to know that what you hear in court is someone's own version of the truth coloured by all manner of things. There is no such thing as truth (except in mathematics at times, as you tried to point), only someone's version of the truth. As another example think of a car crash and the old saying about how when a car crashes, there are three different versions of how it happened. How do we know which is the truth? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 19:58, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I distinguish between the words "truth" and "true". Truth is what one is supposed to tell in court. True can mean the same as "majority opinion". If I say 2+2=4, true or false? Most people will answer "true", although a few people might disagree. My problem is with the misuse of the word "truth" which, for me, can only be used in a personal sense. I suggest replacing "verifiability, not truth" with "verifiability, not certainty". Biscuittin (talk) 19:49, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- So you say, "I disagree with Wikipedia's policy on verifiability, not truth and I think it should be modified. For example, if Wikipedia had been around in the time of Nicolaus Copernicus, the Copernican theory would have been dismissed as "not verified" although it was true. I think Wikipedia should aim to be more truthful than other media and not just follow the herd. Biscuittin (talk) 08:30, 4 May 2011 (UTC)" You want us to go based on the truth as the individual editor sees it? Their own "truth"? O_O Seems an awful lot like an opinion to me. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 19:33, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes. If we want to talk about things outside the realm of the individual, we should use a different word, such as "fact". Biscuittin (talk) 19:11, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- So, the very nature of truth is that the idea of "what is true" is unique to every person? So everyone has their own version of it then? That is how I understood what you said. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 19:05, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- One cannot establish truth if there are no living witnesses. Truth is personal to individuals. Biscuittin (talk) 19:01, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I was using that as an example. =p Every archaeologist dislikes them as they misrepresent archaeology, but you see the point. How do you properly distinguish truth from majority opinion without 20/20 hindsight in some cases and omnipotence in many others? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 18:56, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I've just looked at the links in Sir William's piece above and I think he has an axe to grind. Biscuittin (talk) 18:52, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Truth is not "what most of the people believe at the time". That is "majority opinion". The problem is that some people are using the word "truth" in areas where it is not appropriate. Biscuittin (talk) 18:49, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- It is what most of the people believe at the time. Biscuittin, I am a scientist too (or will be when I get my archaeology degree next year), and believe me, we deal with a lot of garbage presented as fact and truth to the masses by people with dubious credentials, and we are only saved by most of the reliable sources saying that their claims are rubbish. (six links btw) Though millions still accept it as the truth because they have been thoroughly convinced it is the truth and think know better than the actual archaeologists. Why is this relevant? Because we as editors are the same in certain cases and are in no place to think that our interpretation is better than that of the RSs (I am thinking mostly of 2011 Libyan civil war here) as we quite frankly don't know anything more than what they are telling us. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 18:28, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Since "truth" is a word often used to describe opinions and dogma, why don't we simplify this discussion by substituting the word "accuracy".
The cases where objective accuracy exists (whether or not the answer is known) can be identified by when nearly 100% of the people agree on the framework of the question and the answer. The score of yesterday's White Sox game is the score per the rules and decision making process of the governing body for the sport. The age of a burial/grave in years (even if unknown) is the number of times the earth went around the sun since the burial. When the "question" is agreed on, but the answer is unknown, it still exists, but the information is not available. North8000 (talk) 22:19, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
My biggest gripe with this is its abuse: certain editors will heavy-handedly remove unattributed statements due to the lack of appropriate citable sources, even if they are clearly correct. This borders onto secondary vs primary sources. It is important to read the whole story on the policy pages, which is often much more reasonable (e.g. sources being required for *disputable* facts).
On example where I felt WP fell down was during the Mavi Marmara incident. The Turkish organizers and others quickly asserted that there had been no violent resistance to the boarding Israelis, this was echoed by media, and subsequently presented in WP as "verifiable" facts. Regardless of the fact that a) somebody at his desk in Ankara is very unlikely to know anything about the actual events, and b) video footage and images was available - first from IDF, later from people aboard the vessel - clearly showing the reception committee attacking and beating the boarding party. Thus, WP's criteria for trusted sources includes stuff that is obviously wrong, and excludes stuff that is obviously right - because it is primary sources. In particular, the smuggled out video would be great for establishing the sequence of events, but as far as I can tell, nobody bothered to do it in the press, and on WP it would be "original research" and a "primary source". So we're stuck with a hodge-podge of journalistic speculation and political manipulation. (The article is a bit cleaner now, but still contains things I think must be incorrect, like paintball ammo with glass shards in them).
Another place WP falls down is on some vaguely defined terms, see for instance the article on Type Systems. It conflates a bunch of concepts arbitrarily, and I can't for the life of me see anybody reading that and coming out any wiser. But trying to clean it up is impossible, because there are no usable sources that talks about all the different things that are called type systems, and my edits to try to clear things out were quickly deleted by somebody obsessed with WP:this and WP:that. Currently, we're locked by policy to an article that only serves to confuse, and which WP would be more valuable without.
I agree that using majority opinion as "fact" is preposterous (unless you want to claim that \pi=3.14), but I think a consensus by informed individuals would be a lot better in some cases than the current situation). Ketil (talk) 10:58, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- Here is a diatribe on WP:SCUM mostly: Unfortunately what I was writing was lost, so I'll summarise the first bit. I agree with you on the basis of common sense that a video is a lot more informative and a much better source of info than someone at a desk, and that. Accuracy should be more important than verifiability when you have things like those videos. Even if it is considered to be WP:OR to talk about what is in the video, people could, and should, be able to reach a consensus through repeated watching of a certain video and agree on what is happening in it. That is the whole reason people make videos in the first place, to convey information anyone can understand (except if it is not in a language you speak ofc =p). You could also have a few sources analysing it from a separate perspective. In fact in terms of weight, I think that undoctored footage and proper analysis of said footage should be given much more WP:WEIGHT than someone who might not know what they are actually talking about, but is treated as an expert.
- I think we need to revise WP:SCUM, where we actually look at someone's credentials seriously and then determine if they are really someone to be talking about this or they know about as much as we do. Don't just blindly accept what they are saying. I was once hit with a WP:SUCM just because I wanted to see the credentials of a professor in relation to 2011 Libyan civil war (idr who said it to me =p) so it could be determined if his opinion of it being a civil war was actually from a credible expert. After the person gave the credentials I was ok with it, but still it should not have been an unusual or inappropriate question.
- A prime example of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about being treated as an expert is Cindy Sheehan on the death of Osama bin Laden. I respect her work and all, but quite frankly she has about as much knowledge as we do on this. Probably less given that she hasn't been combing over the article over and over. Yet her reaction is pretty much being put in with other experts.
- Now there are some cases like on stuff that has been well-documented for ages, like the history of Ancient Egypt, the mating habits of various animals, Nuclear power plants etc. where common sense says call in the expert as they know will know much better than an editor and convey info better than a video of a steamy reactor. There are other cases, like Mavi Marmara, like Operation Geronimo where you cannot really have the opinion of an expert over that of a primary source because the person branded as an expert can't possibly know what happened better than a participant in said op, unless he/she read all of the after-action reports. It's especially problematic if you keep the testimony in of someone who was not there and whose story contradicts video that you know could not have been doctored and was released by both sides.
- Bare in mind that I am very elitist (as stated before, because of working in archaeology and dealing with charletons (though not firsthand yet)) when it comes to picking the expert with a doctorate in the relevant field, but there are certain cases where you really need to ask yourself "is this person really an expert?" "Do they know what they're on about or do they have as much a clue as I do?" "Should I really put what they're saying in if these videos or other evidence completely contradict what they are saying?"
- Now one on jargony articles: As for Type Systems, if I get what you're getting at, I am kind of irked by certain articles on scientific concepts that are so full of jargon and so hard to understand that it's almost like reading an in-universe summary of idk, how the engines of that Enterprise ship work. I cannot see anyone, other than someone with a thorough education and bit of experience in the relevant field, reading through many of these articles and actually learning anything. I think those articles should be written in a way that makes more sense to at least 70% of the population and then put the jargony one on some Wikiscience wiki, but it would make it a lot easier to tell if something is wrong other than when someone puts in "hurrrr Amanda Summerss is so hawt!".
- Sorry if these are kind of disjointed thoughts, definitely didn't get enough sleep and went back to dif parts. =p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 15:41, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- How we define truth on an individual basis doesn't matter, since "truth" is what we're not trying to publish here. We put into articles what is verified by reliable sources. We might hope that giving due weight to information based on what we can find in reliable sources comes close to "truth" but it really doesn't matter. --Onorem♠Dil 17:37, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Page ratings
What brought about the voting of how people thought whether certain pages are comprehensive etc? I stumbled across this looking at the bottom of London Waterloo station. Simply south...... trying to improve for 5 years 19:40, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I think somebody just put it into Category:Article Feedback Pilot. Biscuittin (talk) 20:45, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
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- I believe (but may be wrong) that it started with with the student programs at WP:USPP. So long as someone is doing something with the data we're collecting, it seems good to me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:38, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia is losing its freedom and policy of "Anyone can Edit" mantra
Over the past few years, the freedom awarded to Wikipedia contributors has been slowly eroded. We now see multiple threats and warnings displayed on discussion pages, and there are the self-righteous veterans who have made it their duty to enhance their own causes by deleting others' work.
Articles are now often locked up; often, people find very few articles where they can even make their writing heard because of the intense fireball of criticism and non-openness projected by veteran Wikipedians. The sheer mass of threats and anger projected at new users has been discouraging new ones from joining; they are bombarded with messages, angry responses from other users, etc....pushing them to leave.
I believe we should eliminate the hosh-posh that has contaminated this encyclopedia and return it to the past policy of openness maintained before people began trying to lock articles and better their own online reputations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nbarile18 (talk • contribs) 19:40, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Can you provide an example regarding the loss of openness? SMP0328. (talk) 19:48, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Articles are locked only when experienced users believe that many new users do nothing but degrade the article. Usually, locking only happens on huge articles which most of the time are GA or FA already, and do not need much editing. Chances are, if a new user wants to edit a Good Article, it's for the wrong reasons. They are "bombarded with messages" only when they don't listen to reason, and continue to edit articles incorrectly. If the edits are in good faith, then editors should not be giving them angry responses. Blake (Talk·Edits) 19:50, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I think the most obvious examples are 2011 Libyan civil war and Death of Osama bin Laden. Admittedly, these are controversial articles but what annoys me is that there have even been attempts to discourage discussion on the talk pages. Biscuittin (talk) 19:58, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, because wikipedia is not a forum. Apparently you have been told this several times [12] already, so I am not sure why it needs to be repeated yet again. Nbarile18 also doesn't seem to understand we are not a forum to vent his opinions. Yoenit (talk) 22:42, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- The purpose of a talk page is to discuss information, and get other people's views on it, before it is put into the article. This information will often include personal opinions but these will be filtered out before the information goes into the article. If you rigidly exclude personal opinions from the talk page then there is no point in having a talk page - you might as well put the information straight in the article without any prior discussion. Biscuittin (talk) 23:27, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, because wikipedia is not a forum. Apparently you have been told this several times [12] already, so I am not sure why it needs to be repeated yet again. Nbarile18 also doesn't seem to understand we are not a forum to vent his opinions. Yoenit (talk) 22:42, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I think the most obvious examples are 2011 Libyan civil war and Death of Osama bin Laden. Admittedly, these are controversial articles but what annoys me is that there have even been attempts to discourage discussion on the talk pages. Biscuittin (talk) 19:58, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Articles are locked only when experienced users believe that many new users do nothing but degrade the article. Usually, locking only happens on huge articles which most of the time are GA or FA already, and do not need much editing. Chances are, if a new user wants to edit a Good Article, it's for the wrong reasons. They are "bombarded with messages" only when they don't listen to reason, and continue to edit articles incorrectly. If the edits are in good faith, then editors should not be giving them angry responses. Blake (Talk·Edits) 19:50, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- People have been making this charge for years now, but the OP was still somehow able to start an account just three weeks ago, and has contributed to nine unique pages so far, so it can't be completely locked down.
- Looking at the contributions, I'd guess that the semi-protection on Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories is another sore point. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:35, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Use of jargon
I think there is far too much use of jargon on Wikipedia. For example: "Removing socks and SPAs from AfD discussions". I have no idea what this means and I've been editing Wikipedia for several years. No doubt I shall be told it's my own fault for not trying to find out but imagine what it must be like for newcomers. Biscuittin (talk) 20:55, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Maybe we can just include a pointer to Wikipedia:Glossary in all of the welcome messages. <shrug> VernoWhitney (talk) 21:02, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Possibly. I mean I hate to say it, but it seems people use more jargon the more accustomed they become to working around other people that use that jargon. It also just pops up naturally in the same way that in-jokes do. It's kind of unavoidable. Biscuittin, you said you are a scientist, so you know what I mean on this. Jargon in the various scientific fields is rampant (especially archaeology, but some archaeologists just do that to seem more clever). =p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 21:07, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- £37'$ 3n4b£3 4 bµ770n 1n pr3ƒ3r3n(3$ 7h47 4µ70m471(4££¥ £1n|{$ 3v3r¥ 4bbr3v14710n 1n 7h3 9£0$$4r¥ 70 17$ 3n7r¥. 7h3 ƒ4(7 7h47 ¥0µ (0µ£Ðn'7 r34Ð 7h1$ 3n7r¥ 1$ $µb$74n71473$ wh¥ 7h1$ m19h7 b3 900Ð, $1n(3 7h1$ 1$ 0n£¥ $0m3wh47 £3$$ (0nƒµ$1n9 70 7rµ3 n0v1(3$ wh3n 7h3¥ $33 4bbr3v14710n$ 3v3r¥wh3r3..--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 21:21, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I think you just gave me brain cancer. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 22:06, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
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- Somewhere in the existing guidelines (I don't know where offhand), recommendations are made for people to try to use plain English - nobody actually does it; I'm guilty of it myself (though I admit to often feeling stupid when corresponding with people on or off wiki and having people throw abbreviations at me that leave me befuddled). I also suspect that many new users who are puzzled are afraid to ask due to "outing" themselves as a newbie. I think, in the abstract, most of us would agree this is a problem, but I genuinely don't know what could be done about it. Maybe a "don't be afraid to ask" essay could be written and added to the standard welcome template. Kansan (talk) 21:34, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Not a guideline, but I know there's WP:OMGWTFBBQ. VernoWhitney (talk) 21:40, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- WP:SHORTCUTS was helpful to me as a glossary of acronyms. The acronyms begin as shortcut links informing the reader of another informative page, but after a while, continuing to blue-link them the acronym starts to feel patronising. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:25, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Somewhere in the existing guidelines (I don't know where offhand), recommendations are made for people to try to use plain English - nobody actually does it; I'm guilty of it myself (though I admit to often feeling stupid when corresponding with people on or off wiki and having people throw abbreviations at me that leave me befuddled). I also suspect that many new users who are puzzled are afraid to ask due to "outing" themselves as a newbie. I think, in the abstract, most of us would agree this is a problem, but I genuinely don't know what could be done about it. Maybe a "don't be afraid to ask" essay could be written and added to the standard welcome template. Kansan (talk) 21:34, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
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- Possibly. I mean I hate to say it, but it seems people use more jargon the more accustomed they become to working around other people that use that jargon. It also just pops up naturally in the same way that in-jokes do. It's kind of unavoidable. Biscuittin, you said you are a scientist, so you know what I mean on this. Jargon in the various scientific fields is rampant (especially archaeology, but some archaeologists just do that to seem more clever). =p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 21:07, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Censorship at Talk:Death of Osama bin Laden and Talk:2011 Libyan civil war
Some editors are misusing Wikipedia policy to control what is said on the page Talk:Death of Osama bin Laden and Talk:2011 Libyan civil war. If they agree with the discussion, they allow it. If they disagree with the discussion, they claim that the contributors are posting personal opinions. I think this should be stopped. Biscuittin (talk) 23:11, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- This was just your personal opinion. You are not citing or attributing that comment to any reliable source to discuss editing of the article; you are offering your personal judgment about the subject matter. That is not a proper use of an article talk page, and the more you do that and the more you flood the talk page with unfounded claims that you are being unfairly censored when these opinions are removed,[13],[14] the more likely you are to just be blocked for disruption (what we might call a self-fulfilling prophecy). So knock it off. If you can't discuss how to change the article in accordance with what reliable sources have said about it, then you have nothing to say on its talk page. postdlf (talk) 23:24, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Three points. 1. For me, using the word censored has echoes of Godwin's Law, which is to say that whoever reaches for that word has lost the debate. 2. Without diffs providing examples of the supposed censorship, there's not much that anyone will do. Right now, you're just bleating. 3. I did take the trouble to look at the most recent page of talk history, and came across at least one post which looked highly inappropriate to me [15]. IN short, you have to be fairly careful on wikipedia; if you are a pain in the arse and confuse talking about articles with a general forum for debate, you're likely to come away disappointed. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:32, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- That sounds like a threat. Biscuittin (talk) 23:36, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- No, it's not just my personal opinion, it's all stuff I've heard BBC News or Sky News or RT News. I just want to hear other people's opinions on it before I put it in the article. Would you rather I put it straight in the article without any prior discussion? Biscuittin (talk) 23:37, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- You can't put 'stuff you heard' in an article without a properly-cited source, end of story. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:40, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Right. If you can actually provide a stable source (such as an online news story, with url), then comment on how you think that source's information might be incorporated into the article. But it sounds like you're trying to use the talk page to live-blog your thoughts on a newscast you're watching on TV. postdlf (talk) 23:45, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- My question about American culture seems to have been seen as very inflammatory but it was not intended to be. American culture is very different from British culture (I am not claiming that one is better than the other) and I think this cultural difference may be one of the reasons why this debate has generated so much heat. Biscuittin (talk) 23:48, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Well, Wikipedia culture requires that you back up with some substantial evidence (reliable sources) before making unfounded claims. Please read policies before doing this. :| TelCoNaSpVe :| 23:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- My question about American culture seems to have been seen as very inflammatory but it was not intended to be. American culture is very different from British culture (I am not claiming that one is better than the other) and I think this cultural difference may be one of the reasons why this debate has generated so much heat. Biscuittin (talk) 23:48, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Right. If you can actually provide a stable source (such as an online news story, with url), then comment on how you think that source's information might be incorporated into the article. But it sounds like you're trying to use the talk page to live-blog your thoughts on a newscast you're watching on TV. postdlf (talk) 23:45, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- You can't put 'stuff you heard' in an article without a properly-cited source, end of story. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:40, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- No, it's not just my personal opinion, it's all stuff I've heard BBC News or Sky News or RT News. I just want to hear other people's opinions on it before I put it in the article. Would you rather I put it straight in the article without any prior discussion? Biscuittin (talk) 23:37, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- That sounds like a threat. Biscuittin (talk) 23:36, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Three points. 1. For me, using the word censored has echoes of Godwin's Law, which is to say that whoever reaches for that word has lost the debate. 2. Without diffs providing examples of the supposed censorship, there's not much that anyone will do. Right now, you're just bleating. 3. I did take the trouble to look at the most recent page of talk history, and came across at least one post which looked highly inappropriate to me [15]. IN short, you have to be fairly careful on wikipedia; if you are a pain in the arse and confuse talking about articles with a general forum for debate, you're likely to come away disappointed. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:32, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I've looked through both talkpages and can't find a single instance where someone would abuse Wikipedia policy to push their own point of view. And even if they had made the claim, they are just doing that making claims, i.e. personal opinions. We should all be entitled to our own personal opinions wherever it may be, but simply bringing drama from one forum onto another, as if this deal of censorship had come straight from administrators, smells a bit like forum-shopping. :| TelCoNaSpVe :| 23:51, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Forum shopping? I came here because I was told to by one of the editors who disagrees with me. Biscuittin (talk) 02:28, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- I removed some of this user's comments from the bin Laden talk page. It wasn't a POV pushing thing, it was a WP:NOTFORUM thing. If he had written "America, fuck yeah!" I still would have removed it. BurtAlert (talk) 00:17, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- I think Biscuittin is a she, but I only say that based on -in being a German feminine ending and having never seen that ending used outside of German. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 00:41, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- From Biscuit tin, surely? (and there's another article I didn't think we'd have, but do...) AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:48, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oooooh, fancy. Though if he/she wanted the tin part to be known then the second T should have been capitalised or a space should have been putin<--- example of bad things that happen without spacing. =p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 01:26, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- Interesting. Biscuittin (talk) 02:30, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- It remains a mystery. :X Anyway, Biscuittin, I have been editting the 2011 Libyan civil war article (mostly the talk of course) almost every day since the 23rd of February (the day it was featured). There has not been any censorship that I have seen. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 04:38, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- Interesting. Biscuittin (talk) 02:30, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oooooh, fancy. Though if he/she wanted the tin part to be known then the second T should have been capitalised or a space should have been putin<--- example of bad things that happen without spacing. =p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 01:26, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- From Biscuit tin, surely? (and there's another article I didn't think we'd have, but do...) AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:48, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- I think Biscuittin is a she, but I only say that based on -in being a German feminine ending and having never seen that ending used outside of German. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 00:41, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
when can we use pending changes again?
Semi-protection has been used for an article on Singapore's elections in light of the fact that polls are in two days but I think this is too drastic. Using pending changes is really really attractive. Is there a reason administrators shouldn't be using this feature in place of a semi-protect? Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (be free) 06:29, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, this RfC is pending (no pun intended) administrative close, and until then consensus seems to be in favor of suspending the use of pending changes entirely, until consensus for how it's used can be formed. :| TelCoNaSpVe :| 06:53, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
3RR and Tag-teaming
This may well have come up before (although I couldn't find it). Why isn't tag-team edit warring specifically not included in WP:Edit warring as a breach of that policy? The only thing I could find is WP:Tag team which is an essay not a policy and seems to spend most of its time saying don't accuse people of tag teaming. Should it be made clear that tag team reverts (if determined to be so by an admin) should be treated as reverts by a single editor for the purposes of 3RR etc? I think at the moment it's much vaguer and seems to only be considered some sort of generalized disruptive editing (if dealt with at all, which seems rare.) DeCausa (talk) 09:35, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- I'm very surprised that tag-teaming is not included in the policy. It definitely should be. I'm sure ArbCom has written multiple motions telling editors not to conduct tag-team edit warring; can't we just insert this into the policy right now? Nanobear (talk) 10:43, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- First you need to identify/define that it is tag-teaming and not a number of like-minded editors dealing with am awkward editor. GraemeLeggett (talk) 10:57, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- Exactly. Pretty much, the idea is that if more people oppose you then are with you, then you lose. "Tag team" reverts most of the time are helpful because it is dealing with only 1 disruptive editor with a few others reverting them. Making them have to be punished for doing that is silly. Blake (Talk·Edits) 13:37, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- That's not tag-teaming as it's usually meant. I'm referring to the situation where one does three reverts and the other does the fourth, or they do two each. And they regularly do it to support a particular POV. It's a form of gaming 3RR - but rarely ends up at AN3 as it's not as straightforward to establish "acting in concert". DeCausa (talk) 14:03, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- First you need to identify/define that it is tag-teaming and not a number of like-minded editors dealing with am awkward editor. GraemeLeggett (talk) 10:57, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
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- Situations where multiple editors do the same edit/revert can range from things that are a very good (such as implementing or enforcing a very strong consensus) to very bad things (to edit war while circumventing edit war rules/conditions such as 3RR or 1RR). Even the worst case of them I think is not as serious/ blatant / clear cut cause for action as one editor violating 3RR. But it might be good to try to address this more than we do right now. North8000 (talk) 13:49, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
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- The problem with this, is it would be difficult to distinguish between "gaming" and actual preservation of factual data in a particular article. IMO, a user who "competes" against more than one other user to retain content may need to consider other methods of preserving his/her content, ie., dispute processes such as WP:RfC. In my limited experience though, these users seem many times, to have an agenda or biased POV. Dijcks | InOut 18:21, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
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Suggest that changes (clarification of instructions) be made at WP:MOS as follows:
Recently, I made use of the Block Quote following the instructions here. According to the Manual of Style, certain colors are not allowed to be used, yet the instructions use those same colors that are not allowed?
This is/was the exact insertion that was reverted:
On questions about his refusal to release photos[16] of bin Laden at the time of his death..
- "..the fact of the matter is, you will not see bin Laden walking on this Earth again"
- —U.S. President, Barack Obama
In every respect, the above edit follows the formatting and colors as in Block quotation instruction. My Suggestion is, IF.. ..the color "GREEN" is NOT allowed to be used by editors, that it should also be removed from the content in the Manual of Style as well.
NOTE: I'm aware that I may have mistakenly used a block-quote given the size of the quote, however this is more about the manual following its own guidelines as relates to text color! ..much respect, Dijcks | InOut 16:46, 5 May 2011 (UTC)