Template talk:Countries of the Indosphere
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Alleged Indosphere of Afghanistan
Let's discuss this matter through various aspects. Firstly how Afghanistan is purportedly in the "Indosphere?" I say: this notion is preposterous as it utterly strains credulity. Linguistically, there are numerous words in Hindi noticably taken from Afghanistan's official language of Persian. Moreover, the tourist wonders of India, including the Taj Mahal have Iranic imprints all over. Therefore, one can even reversably contend that a sizeable heritage of India falls within Persian influence. Additionally, the cuisines of Afghanistan and India are remarkably different whereas the Cuisines of Pakistan-India-Bangladesh-Nepal are strikingly similiar. Furthermore, even if Kabul was allegedly controlled by Hindus/Indians, it was of no moment since there hardly remains any significant influence and legacy of this alleged "control." Indeed, any alleged influence that supposedly came from Ashoka or any other Indian ruler is noticably missing as nothing really remains religiously, culturally or linguistically. The only notable legacy I see is that of a recent phenomena known as "Bollywood," though to suggest this as a main premise to this matter would be folly since Bollywood movies are found throughout Asia and even in Europe. I therefore am puzzled as to TheGreyanomly's reasoning behind placing Afghanistan in this list. Scythian1 03:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Scythian1, please read the South Asia article. I have several scholarly sources that do claim Afghanistan is South Asia. Also In 630 AD Kabul was of Buddhist majority. The source for that is in this book (Hazra, Kanai L. Rise and Decline of Buddhism in India. 1998th ed. New Delhi: Munishiram Manharlal, 1995). Also take a look at the following pages; Indo-Greek Kingdom, Greco-Buddhism, Indo-Parthian Kingdom, Pala_Empire#Peace_and_Expansion, Indo-Scythians, Maurya Empire, Kushan Empire. Both States were under the same rulers for long periods of time, and Buddhism (which is clearly non-Persian) was the majority religion of Afghanistan during these periods. There was plenty of Indian influence. Plenty of sources say that Afghanistan is South Asia (just about as many as say it is Central Asian or Middle Eastern). If this concerns you as for why, you should ask universities such as UC Berkeley, UW-Madison, and UPenn, and the US dept.s of state and interior all make claims that Afghanistan is South Asian. Some people declare Afghanistan MEern or Central Asian, but many still call them South Asian Thegreyanomaly 03:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- There is no argument here that Afghanistan can be considered to be in the Indosphere. We disagree that Afghanistan is labeled as South Asian. There is many reasons, for example Afghanistan's languages are either Iranian languages or Turkic languages, not Indic languages. Also the people are not Indic, they are either Iranic people or Turko-Mongol people. It can be considered in the Indosphere due to the Indian influence and some shared history, but we disagree that it is South Asian. -- Behnam 03:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- There most certainly is a disagreement as to weither Afghanistan and Balouchistan can be considered part of the "Indosphere". The concept is a nationalistic neologism, and not one based on scholarly undersdtanding. Atari400 19:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
- You may disagree, but many people disagree with you two. New news to me, BBC even calls you guys South Asian [4]. It is not necessary for a country's language to be Indic to be in South Asia. The Bhutanese and Tibetan languages and some lesser spoken Indian languages formed independent of the Indo-Iranian and Dravidic languages of the rest of South Asia, yet they are still called South Asian. Afghanistan is very commonly called South Asian, you may not like it, but that is the fact of the matter. There is nothing non-POV of this view. It is as well, if not more, supported than your views Thegreyanomaly 03:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- We are not talking about geographic South Asia, but rather a neologism that purports a greater cultural and social construct that is simply not backed up by facts. Atari400 19:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately you completly failed to address any matter that I raised and instead proposed two premises which is clearly flawed. Firstly, you maintain that since Afghanistan is South Asian, it follows that it falls within the Indosphere. I say, that even if I were to ignore the evidence that shows Afghanistan being Central Asian and take your premise, it still does not logically follow. For example, by using your reasoning, one can argue that Japan and Korean falls in the Sinosphere since they are commonly viewed as "far eastern nations." Moreover, even if Afghanistan falls within South Asia, how can one logically infer without any alterior motive, that the nation by default falls within the sphere of another nation? And why India? And why not fall within the sphere of Sri Lanka, Nepal or Tibet nations with substantially rich histories? Indeed, such chest-pounding ethnocentric nationalism does not belong in a reasonably subjective article devoid of any bias.
Secondly, you contend that because Afghanistan was once "majority" Buddhist, it therefore follows that Afghanistan falls in the Indosphere. I say, this is utterly flawed since there is substantial evidence indicating that sizeable areas of Afghanistan were Zoroastrian. Just as you can mention Buddhist relics, one can take notice of the Zoroastrian relics and coins found in Afghanistan. Therefore, this matter is not a fully undisputed area as one can only speculate as to which reliion was the predominate one. Nonetheless, EVEN IF I were to accept your premise and acknowledge that Buddhism was the majority religion, that still is of no circumstance for the following reason: There are many "majority" Buddhist nations that seen Buddhist missionaries make inroads into their nation, as in China, Tibet and Korea. It would be folly to think these nations, just like Afghanistan fall into the Indosphere just because they are or were "majority Buddhist." I therefore question your reasoning. Scythian1 03:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. Atari400 19:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Buddhism: Buddhism in Afghanistan grew directly out Indian Buddhism. Much of the Greco-Buddhism of the Indo Greeks grew directly out of Afghanistan. Many of India's past Buddhist rulers, descended out of Afghanistan and made plenty of strides in the Afghanstani-Pakistani-Kashmiri crossroad region Why Indosphere?: India is obviously larger than the other South Asian states, that could be why the notion Indosphere was chosen. Indian civilization is among the world's oldest, just as Mesopotamian, African, and Chinese civilization. I did not create the notion of the Indosphere, I am just following it. Thegreyanomaly 04:17, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
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- You have repeatedly opted not to address any matters I raised in my first post and instead chose to quibble about India's past Buddhist rulers who allegedly "descended out of Afghanistan." Your new premise which you erroneously select to reconstruct your earlier position is yet again entirely spurious since one can effortlessly contend that Zoroaster, the founder (emphasis on FOUNDER) of Zoroastrianism is reported to be from Afghanistan, and therefore the balance decisively tips against your flawed assertions. Moreover, Afghanistan has seen significant leaders from Arabic descent - does this follow that Afghanistan falls within the Arab World? Hardly plausible.
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- Lastly, you wrongfully argue that since India is the oldest and "obviously larger" of other South Asian nations, it would follow that Afghanistan would somehow fall within the Indosphere. Again, this argument holds no weight since any regionally large nation, like Brazil has absolutely no right to assert that nations around it fall within its "sphere." Moreover, just as in India to Afghanistan, Brazil hardly asserted its influence on its closet neighbors since not one bordering neighbor of Brazil speaks Portuguese. Scythian1 01:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
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- You did not read my last sentence it appears I did not create the notion of the Indosphere, I am just following it. Those were my assumptions of why India was chose over Tibet, Sri Lanka, or Nepal. If this were the Lankasphere, Nepalosphere, or Tibetosphere, I would have added the countries declared to be part of the Indosphere. Putting Afghanistan in the Indosphere, does not mean it is not in a Persian or Arab sphere of influence too. Thegreyanomaly 02:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- You may not have created the nationalistic notion and neologism of an Indosphere, but it appears you are using Wikipedia as a means to further the notion of this highly charged and very questionable political concept as "fact". On a side not, are you User:Afghan Historian by any chance? He/she had a very similar agenda on Wikipedia. Atari400 19:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
- You did not read my last sentence it appears I did not create the notion of the Indosphere, I am just following it. Those were my assumptions of why India was chose over Tibet, Sri Lanka, or Nepal. If this were the Lankasphere, Nepalosphere, or Tibetosphere, I would have added the countries declared to be part of the Indosphere. Putting Afghanistan in the Indosphere, does not mean it is not in a Persian or Arab sphere of influence too. Thegreyanomaly 02:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
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- The fact that Afghanistan at one point was a place where Buddhism was practiced is irrelevant. After all, are Chinese Buddhists part of the "Indosphere", simply because they practice Buddhism? Is India part of the Greater Middle East, or a Greater Iran, simply because Islam is practiced there? What about Zoroastrianism? The concept of an Indosphere very well applies to the nations of South Asia, but it most certainly does not apply to either Central Asia, or the Iranian plateau. Baluchistan and Afghanistan are culturally not connected to India, and thus the nationalistic concept of a Greater India and an Indosphere. Atari400 19:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Because you are merely "following" it, does not exculpate you from this particular matter. Moreover, because you have repeatedly and erroneously insisted that "Afghanistan" should be in the the template, you appear to take the role as an advocate of this dubious notion rather than a "follower." I also question your last assertion. You obviously concede that Afghanistan has Persian and Arab influence, yet I am puzzled then as to why Gandhara was not a suitable replacement in the Template. Indeed, if there was any alleged Indian influence it was in Gandhara. Have you read the Gandhara article? It effectively describes what you erroneously try to comport Afghanistan to represent. Accordingly, Gandhara has been inserted in lieu of Afghanistan. Scythian1 02:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
If one thinks about Hindu Kush was also greatly influenced by Indian thought (the [[[Kushans]]). Hindu Kush and Gandhara weren't exactly next to each other http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/images/en/map08.jpg. Bactria too was the home of the Indo-Greeks. Gandhara is too specific and is only one location of influence. It wouldn't be a good idea to specifically list out all the regions of Afghanistan that were influenced by India, so "parts of Eastern Afghanistan (sometimes considered South Asian)" seems pretty fair —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thegreyanomaly (talk • contribs) 18:35, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
debate over?Thegreyanomaly 19:11, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- Debate not over. Your historical references to the Kushans(not of Indian origin) and that of Gandhara not only are very questionable in your interpretation to the notion of a Indosphere, but also have little to do with the modern world. Atari400 19:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Thegrey, in spite of my numerous posts pointing you to directly respond to my posts, you insist on searching other premises to support your unavailing contention. Not even withstanding that, your more recent attempt to comport Afghanistan into the "Indosphere" is meritless since you grossly accentuate the phrase "Indo-Greeks" to improperly mean that they were Indian and thus Indians somehow had control of Bactria. This utterly strains creduility and reason since the Indo-Greeks were NOT Indian nor were they indigenous to India. The Indo-Greeks were ethnic Greeks who controlled substantial portions of India, and what is today known as Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan and a host of other areas. Scythian1 03:51, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- My sentiments exactly. Atari400 19:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Categorise the template
Hi Thegreyanomaly, I dont see any category which the template is part of, could you include it in some category. Otherwise I may need to create one.
Hope Afghanistan issue is over, definitely its part of Indosphere..... We rae talking about history and Indosphere takes into account the last 4000 years of History.
As an aside, Is there a corresponding Sinosphere Template? I would definitely like to see one being built.
Bdebbarma 11:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- Well, Indian nationalists think Afghanistan and Baluchistan are part of some notion of a "greater India". Unfortunately, neither the facts, nor the people who live in those regions, see this as the case. Atari400 19:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
RfC: Are Afghanistan and Balochistan relevant
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Is it proper and relevant for Afghanistan and Balochistan to be on this template? Atari400 claims that there is a consensus against them, yet I do not see much of a concensus against them. Thegreyanomaly (talk) 07:53, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
- Giving into the fact that the term Indosphere is a neologism with potentially nationalistic overtones, I would say no. After all, what exactly connects such a region as Baluchistan, or a nation like Afghanistan, to the "Indosphere"? Where are the factual sources to back up such a claim? Atari400 07:50, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Atari, you have nothing close to a consensus
You are basing your false consensus of Beh-nam and Scythian1.
Scythian acknowledges Gandhara and Balochistan as valid. When he tried to revert the template, he generally left those two entries on the template. Beh-nam also left both of them on the template. You do not have a consensus amongst the people from the region who tried to edit this page. Wait for the RfC. Also, an admin User: Danny took down the dubious tags, so I reverted the page without them Thegreyanomaly (talk) 20:17, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
- Either way, I want to see some scholarly work that actually shows Baluchistan and Afghanistan as part of the "greater" culture of India. Without such facts, this is nothing more than original research. Atari400 20:58, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
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- We are talking about the concept of the Indosphere, and not the geographic definition of South Asia, which your sources link to. Tibet, mind you, is also included in your geographic links, as well. Please keep this discussion on topic. You are trying to confuse these two very different terms and concepts, one being geographic, and the other being cultural and idealogical. As of yet, not one of your links shows an academic, non-politically nationalistic usage of the term Indosphere. Feel free to define Afghans, Baluchs and Tibetans as being Indian for yourself, if you like. Please do not do so on an open encyclopedia such as this, since it can be construed as being both nationalistic and racist in intent by many potential readers. Atari400 22:30, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
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You seem to be mistaken, South Asian Studies departments focus on the culture, linguistics, and histories of peoples, not geography. These dept.s view Afghanistan as culturally similar to or culturally influenced by South Asia. Tibet is most clearly geographically Central Asian, but its peoples are most culturally aligned with the people of Bhutan, Nepal, and India, which are South Asian. Similar logic is being used by them in terms of Afghanistan. Also Indospheric does not equal Indian in my mind. Thegreyanomaly (talk) 03:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
References
- ^ Center for South Asia Studies: University of California, Berkeley [1]
- ^ Center for South Asia Outreach UW-Madison [2]
- ^ Department of South Asia Studies: University of Pennsylvania [3]
- ^ University of Washington Jackson School of International Studies: The South Asia Center http://jsis.washington.edu/advise/catalog/soasia-b.html
- ^ Syracruse University: The South Asia Center http://www.maxwell.syr.edu/moynihan/programs/sac/