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Fictional elements
List of Torchwood items
- List of Torchwood items (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I don't use the term CRUFT lightly, but this certainly feels like the definition of it. Nothing covers objects in Torchwood to a significant extent, and the bulk of the items covered here are minor and non-notable. I definitely feel this list should likely be deleted, or at the very least partially merged into the Doctor Who items list, though I'm not feeling confident on that list either. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 17:23, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Science fiction and fantasy, and Television. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 17:23, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Delete No indication of meeting NLIST, and it looks like it would fit in perfectly on a Fandom wiki. Ping me if anything comes up that could change my mind. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:26, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 19:03, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Delete - A complete mishmash of random things related to Torchwood, ranging from things that appeared in the background of an episode, to things mentioned once or twice, to just real world things that just happened to be shown on screen. There are very clearly no sources that cover this random gathering as a group or set, meaning it fails WP:NLIST, and probably runs afoul of WP:INDISCRIMINATE as well. I think even a Fandom wiki would think twice before including a page like this. Rorshacma (talk) 19:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep meets WP:CSC #2. The topic of this list is "Torchwood" not "Torchwood items", much like the topic of "characters of franchise" is "franchise" so the group does not have to be discussed as a set to meet NLIST, because Torchwood is already notable. No objection to renaming the article, but since we have other AfDs likely to close as merge to here (e.g. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cardiff Rift) deletion is particularly problematic as it would result in the destruction of content that could be better rewritten from history to be more encyclopedic. Jclemens (talk) 20:19, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Just because Torchwood is inherently notable does not mean this list should really be existing. It's a collection of indiscriminate information about random items from the show, none of which seem to have much of an indicator that they're actually important. There's no real encyclopedic value here, as there's nothing really to be discussed. Non-notable subsets related to shows have been removed in the past for these reasons (See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Doctor Who henchmen (2nd nomination) as an example from the same shared universe). As for the Cardiff Rift discussion, the Rift isn't really an item, so I'm not sure why it's being brought up in regards to that discussion, especially since the Rift isn't even mentioned in the Torchwood items article. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 21:19, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- WP:OSE applies both ways; previous removals aren't normative. If there's a need to edit a list, great, do it, improve it by editing rather than deletion. The fact that this is brought up in that deletion discussion gives us a hint that 1) there is a need for an article to cover not-individually-notable aspects from Torchwood, and 2) this may be it, but at the wrong title. I'm not the person to do this, since my wife peace out'ed after Countrycide so I'm hardly informed enough about the series. Jclemens (talk) 23:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Just because Torchwood is inherently notable does not mean this list should really be existing. It's a collection of indiscriminate information about random items from the show, none of which seem to have much of an indicator that they're actually important. There's no real encyclopedic value here, as there's nothing really to be discussed. Non-notable subsets related to shows have been removed in the past for these reasons (See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Doctor Who henchmen (2nd nomination) as an example from the same shared universe). As for the Cardiff Rift discussion, the Rift isn't really an item, so I'm not sure why it's being brought up in regards to that discussion, especially since the Rift isn't even mentioned in the Torchwood items article. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 21:19, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Lois Lane (DC Extended Universe)
- Lois Lane (DC Extended Universe) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I try again. Lois Lane is indeed an encyclopedic character but its counterpart from the DC Extended Universe seems to be irrelevant in a real world perspective. First thing first, this article does not meet the requirements of WP:NFILMCHAR: the character has appeared in three films, but not in a lead or titular capacity. Also, this iteration of Lois Lane does not have an extensive coverage. Redjedi23 (talk) 11:18, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements and Film. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 11:22, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- We meet again, old friend.
- As discussed last time, I wouldn't do a straight up delete, but would merge to either Lois Lane in other media or Characters of the DC Extended Universe if it's decided this page isn't worth being a stand-alone article. WuTang94 (talk) 01:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Move to Lois Lane in film and merge in the film content from Lois Lane in other media (as we do with our separate articles for, e.g., Spider-Man in film and Spider-Man in other media). There is sufficient DCEU-specific content on casting and character development within the franchise that this content should not be erased from the encyclopedia altogether. BD2412 T 19:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Pit (Kid Icarus)
- Pit (Kid Icarus) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Article was brought back recently, and again I feel the arguments of the previous AfD hold true here. Every new source added- with few exceptions- are either unreliable or a very trivial mention in a review of Uprising. Even using sources from the previous iteration of Pit's article, there still isn't nearly enough for a whole article. I recommend to restore the redirect, since nothing has been proven to state that the discussion's consensus has changed. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 02:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements and Video games. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 02:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Pinging @Kazama16, who revived the article, for thoughts. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 02:10, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Restore Redirect - This was just Merged by pretty strong consensus at an AFD just three months ago, and really should not have been unilaterally restored without some kind of discussion first, which as far as I can see did not happen. But, regardless of that, the current version does not show any greater coverage in reliable sources that was presented or found in the previous discussion. All of the added sources in the reception section are simply reviews and coverage of Kid Icarus: Uprising as a whole, where the few sentences and quotes that specifically talk about Pit as a character are being cherry picked out to give the illusion of significant coverage. Uprising was a notable game that garnered many reviews, but cobbling together a dozen minor sentences of "reception" on the main character in them do not add together to give Pit his own notability separate from that of the games he appears in. Rorshacma (talk) 02:34, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect Sources that are used are press releases,
listicles, or articles about the game not the character. Still the same as the previous AfD. Update. Article still fails notability. Most were just trivia or passing mentions. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 03:05, 19 May 2024 (UTC) - Keep Boneless Pizza! Listicles??? where show me sources that cite "Top 10 best video game characters", Top 10 archers in video games" show me where are those sources? please carefully check the article before choosing your decision. Also what about page no 8 and 9 of this book in Portuguese about Pit.[1]] This whole article is about him.[2] and this too [3] (about his supposed design). There might be even more sources that are currently not present in the article, so stop being quick for deletion as I suggest. Kazama16 (talk) 09:37, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Perhaps I was exaggerating about listicles, but you're just throwing unreliable sources here except the book one which might be bit useful. Pls do not bludgeon the discussion and make any WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES argument. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 05:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- To be fair to your original assessment, I would say this one is definitely a listicle (and one that isn't even on Pit at that!), so you were not wrong. Rorshacma (talk) 05:35, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Actually there is a mention of Pit in it on 9# Tetris. Quote= How cool is that? Well, it’s even cooler than you think because it’s not only Link; Samus Aran joins him on the cello, Pit plays the violin Kazama16 (talk) 09:41, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- So you think "How cool is that? Pit plays the violin" is a valuable commentary to add at the article? 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 10:03, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- It's about the game he appeared in not reception Kazama16 (talk) 10:19, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't say he wasn't mentioned in it, I said that he was not the topic of the listicle in question. That sentence you quoted is the very definition of trivial coverage that is a very good example of showing what kind poor sources and cherry picked quotes are having to be used to try to make it look like the character has more coverage than he actually does. Rorshacma (talk) 15:16, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- So you think "How cool is that? Pit plays the violin" is a valuable commentary to add at the article? 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 10:03, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Actually there is a mention of Pit in it on 9# Tetris. Quote= How cool is that? Well, it’s even cooler than you think because it’s not only Link; Samus Aran joins him on the cello, Pit plays the violin Kazama16 (talk) 09:41, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- To be fair to your original assessment, I would say this one is definitely a listicle (and one that isn't even on Pit at that!), so you were not wrong. Rorshacma (talk) 05:35, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- They aren't really bludgeoning, they're just defending their reasons for making the article. Regardless, per above, 3 is only dev info, and that can only go so far given the lackluster Reception. The Fwoosh does not seem to be a reliable source. The book source is entirely plot summary from a quick read. None of these seem to be making an impact on notability, and per prior AfDs, searches for sources have historically turned up very little, making the THEREMUSTBESOURCES argument moot. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 05:35, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- The "so stop being quick for deletion as I suggest" doesn't sound right. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 05:38, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- I suggested the nominator not you, in a friendly way. Kazama16 (talk) 09:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- I know, but it still doesn't sound right to say it like that, and I don't think it is in a "friendly way". Sometimes it is really hard to help you, like I already told you before not to work on your Draft:Takeda Takahashi, because that character is not notable, but yet you still persist. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 10:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- I suggested the nominator not you, in a friendly way. Kazama16 (talk) 09:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- The "so stop being quick for deletion as I suggest" doesn't sound right. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 05:38, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Perhaps I was exaggerating about listicles, but you're just throwing unreliable sources here except the book one which might be bit useful. Pls do not bludgeon the discussion and make any WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES argument. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 05:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Restore Redirect My prior rationale remains the same. I agree that it should have been discussed before it was restored. Perhaps it's worth pinging the restorer to this discussion to maybe give their opinion? Personally, I would not have taken it to AfD knowing the outcome will be the same, just redirect it. Conyo14 (talk) 07:22, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- I felt it was likely going to cause some dispute if I did BLAR it, hence why I chose to AfD it. Additionally, I have already pinged the restorer, and they are actively participating in the discussion. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 17:47, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. While I think the article needs clean up and a trim to focus on best sources, from a search I'm left with a sense of sufficient coverage, beyond trivial mentions in a game review, of Pit as a multimedia character not reducible to a Kid Icarus redirect (perhaps only just, but even so). Participants in the discussion may already be aware of this IGN article which covers Pit across several media appearances outside Kid Icarus. In addition to that, I found this Bleeding Cool article reporting on and assessing a Pit figurine. And the first chapter of this academic book from Bloomsbury Publishing includes coverage of the Pit character in the Kid Icarus franchise. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 07:36, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- A figurine/merchandise doesn't help WP:GNG; thus the article is still in a weak state. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 10:02, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- The article has not been checked properly; the nominator has only looked over the reception section without checking the further reading section and assumed that it is not notable per the other two previous AFDS. Kazama16 (talk) 10:33, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Lacking evidence that the nominator has not done that, I must say that as someone who has, it would not have caused me to change my mind about nominating it. All of the further reading section is either WP:ROUTINE articles coming about due to Uprising's announcement or an interesting but unreliable student article for a student magazine. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 15:21, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Forgive me for missing that, most video game character articles lack significant external reading sections, and additionally, those with them typically cite the articles in the Reception. In any case, per Cukie Gherkin above, I see no real significant coverage on Pit as a character in here. One is a review of an action figure unrelated to Pit's character, and the majority of the others are routine Kid Icarus Uprising coverage. The Writer's Block Magazine source looks decent, but I am unfamiliar with their reliability. In any case, one good source out of a swamp of them isn't really enough to justify Pit as an article. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 17:57, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- The article has not been checked properly; the nominator has only looked over the reception section without checking the further reading section and assumed that it is not notable per the other two previous AFDS. Kazama16 (talk) 10:33, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't really see much commentary in the IGN article. It seems more to be a summary of Pit's appearances, and any commentary that could be taken out of it is cherry picking. The Siliconera article is less about Pit and more about the make of a figurine than anything. The book source seems to be more about the Kid Icarus game itself being compared to the game Athena. Anything relating to Pit is in regards to his character is just plot summary, though correct me if I've missed anything. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 17:53, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- A figurine/merchandise doesn't help WP:GNG; thus the article is still in a weak state. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 10:02, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Restore redirect Nothing against articles getting revived, but this is still in the same place it was from the last AfD.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 19:02, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Restore redirect I get the feeling the user who revived the article does not "get" what significant coverage is. Sheer amount of sources will not rescue an article, quality over quantity is needed. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 06:52, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
John Kelly (NYPD Blue)
- John Kelly (NYPD Blue) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:GNG. Character that was in under 30 episode. Article is all plot. Cant find anything good. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 22:57, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Police, Fictional elements, Television, and New York. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 22:57, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment LA Times still has content on Caruso's exit from this role. That was on the first page of a Google search, so I suspect there may be more. Jclemens (talk) 02:57, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - The problem with that source, and many others in reliable sources I'm finding, is that they aren't about the fictional character as much as they are on the actor and the real-world consequences from his exit from the show. Great sources for David Caruso's article, but not so great for an article on John Kelly. This article, from New York (magazine) and this one from the NYT were the best two I found so far that actually do talk about the character a bit in addition to the actor, though they still aren't super great in that regard. Rorshacma (talk) 05:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Jiang Li
- Jiang Li (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Redirect to Shang-Chi: Not sure how this article made it to the mainspace in the first place as it doesn't seem to pass WP:GNG. While the article may appear lengthy and have multiple sections at first sight, the Biography, Powers and abilities, and In other media sections are all focused on in-universe fictional content. The powers and abilities section lacks any citations, while the Biography and In other media sections solely rely on using the comics and the film as WP:PLOTSOURCE. This leaves only the Publication history section, but the majority of that section isn't even related to the subject person. The first paragraph discusses how Shang-chi's mother was supposed to be an unnamed white woman in early drafts (it is not about Jiang Li and that part is uncited). The subsequent paragraphs delve into the development of the Shang-chi comics, and has nothing to do with Jiang Li again. Only the final two paragraphs actually cover Jiang Li, with the first one focusing on the character's portrayal in the film, which already has its own section in the Characters of the Marvel Cinematic Universe: M–Z#Ying Li. Half of the second paragraph discusses the release of a new Shang-chi comic series based on the film. Only half of the final paragraph contains original content about the character, supported by one secondary source from Comic Book Resources.—Prince of Erebor(The Book of Mazarbul) 20:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
In short, the entire article has only two properly cited sentences and one source that actually introduce the character. I have conducted additional searches on the internet, but I could only find one more comic review from CBR that briefly mentions the character.[4] Therefore, I don't believe this comic character deserves her own article at this point, as it fails to meet the criteria of GNG. Normally I would suggest redirecting it to the comic book series Shang-Chi. However, since the series itself is not notable enough to have its own article either, I would recommend filing for deletion.—Prince of Erebor(The Book of Mazarbul) 20:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note: The first nomination was from 2009, and was thus about a different topic (a non-fictional — and also non-notable — musician) than this comic book character introduced in 2021. (No opinion or further comment at this time.) WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 21:08, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements and Comics and animation. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 21:09, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Merge to List of Marvel Comics characters: J#Jiang Li in the spirit of WP:PRESERVE. It has no benefit to let that section referring here hanging. Aside from the mentioned sources, there's a web page on the character with some commentary here. Refinery29 as an entertainment news website can be considered reliable for our subject area here, right? I believe with regard to notability, the comics version Jian Li and the Marvel Cinematic Universe version Ying Li should be looked at together, as they are closely related. But as Ying Li does not currently have its own page and I currently have no time for a more intense search, I can't tell if they meet the notability threshold. Please let me know in case anyone finds more secondary sources. Daranios (talk) 11:01, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to Shang-Chi - Unfortunately, I am not convinced at all that this character has even the small bit of notability needed to be included on one of the massive "Marvel Character Lists". As the nomination rightly describes, almost none of the content of this article, and very few of the non-primary sources, are even about this character at all or even mention her. And the few sources that do exist specifically on this character are extremely trivial. Rather than worrying about leaving the section at List of Marvel Comics characters: J#Jiang Li hanging, that section should just not be included on that list and should be removed. As her only claim to notability is being the mother of Shang-Chi, and her recent roles in the storylines where she was recently introduced are pretty extensively covered at that article, Redirecting to there would be a sufficient WP:ATD. Rorshacma (talk) 15:29, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Changed my vote to a Redirect. My original rationale for deletion was that both Ying Li and the Shang-chi comic series were not available destinations for moving the page. However, I find both Daranios and Rorshacma's arguments reasonable, and I believe Rorshacma's suggestion is slightly better. There isn't much to say about this character even if it were moved to the list article, aside from stating that "she is Shang-chi's mother" and "she is inspired by the film character." Therefore, I changed my vote to a redirect to Shang-chi.—Prince of Erebor(The Book of Mazarbul) 16:08, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Merge/Redirect to List of Marvel Comics characters: J#Jiang Li to avoid WP:FANCRUFT while retaining material to a more appropriate location for this subject. Redirecting to Shang-Chi would not prove as useful as we shouldn't merge more content on related characters to that article when a comics list entry already exists. Trailblazer101 (talk) 06:03, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - The issue, though, is that if we avoid WP:FANCRUFT, there really isn't anything left to merge to a character list. This is a very minor, recently introduced character that just does not really have any good sourcing to show even a small bit a notability. Merging every character to massive character lists, even ones that are completely non-notable, just makes massive lists filled with non-notable, poorly sourced information. Rorshacma (talk) 16:12, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
Lynn Minmay
- Lynn Minmay (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Profile on an idol singer from the original Macross Saga, a.k.a. arc #1 of Robotech in the West. Recently prodded per WP:NPLOT and WP:NCHARACTER; taking it to AFD to see whether the rest of the participants agree with my decision to get it merged into/redirected to List of Macross characters or List of Robotech characters.
On a related note, stay tuned as I pitch a potential decade-old (and Waybacked) source that the page on the 1986 tie-in movie--a.k.a. Megazone 23's first go at U.S. licensing--could sure benefit from. Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 17:51, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Science fiction and fantasy, Music, and Anime and manga. Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 17:51, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note The character first name is alternatively spelled Lin, and last name Minmei, and I can see additional sources (that I have not evaluated for appropriateness) under those variants. She is the antagonist of the first arc (a la Jenny from Forrest Gump) and a pretty major character. If not retained, this should be merged to List of Robotech characters which uses alternative spellings for the name and does not link here. Jclemens (talk) 01:13, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - I have certainly never been a fan of Minmay, but describing her as "the antagonist" of Macross seems a bit harsh! In any case, I would say that List of Macross characters be the more appropriate Merge target, as that was the original version of the character, and this page is focused a lot more on the Macross version of the character, including her roles/influence in later Macross series. Though, that page would obviously have an appropriate redirect to List of Robotech characters to direct people to those versions of the characters as well. I took a quick look at the Japanese Wikipedia's article on the character, but it seems like most of the references being used there are primary, largely being official Macross publications/products. Rorshacma (talk) 15:57, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Minmei hate aside (which is purely tongue-in-cheek on my part), this is one good reason to maybe maintain an independent article: We have the same animated figure, with similar name, associated with two stories, both Macross and Robotech. How do we best represent that: at the character level o/r show level? No comment on primary sourcing--I haven't really done a search yet. Jclemens (talk) 17:17, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - I have certainly never been a fan of Minmay, but describing her as "the antagonist" of Macross seems a bit harsh! In any case, I would say that List of Macross characters be the more appropriate Merge target, as that was the original version of the character, and this page is focused a lot more on the Macross version of the character, including her roles/influence in later Macross series. Though, that page would obviously have an appropriate redirect to List of Robotech characters to direct people to those versions of the characters as well. I took a quick look at the Japanese Wikipedia's article on the character, but it seems like most of the references being used there are primary, largely being official Macross publications/products. Rorshacma (talk) 15:57, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Weak keep. This is a classic and I'd think reasonably famous anime character. While I have not done an in-depth source query, Google Scholar returns 48 hits for the primary spelling. That said, the article is bad and I'll see if I can start a reception section or such. Ping User:Daranios (as I am a bit busy right now). Anyway, I am pretty sure this meets WP:GNG (if not in the current fancrufty form). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:27, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. The current version of the article strangely elides what seems to be Minmay's main attribute of real-world notability: she was, as this Kotaku article explains,
the first fictional singer to garner major real world success
, before characters more familiar in the present like Hatsune Miku. The 1984 release of the song "Do You Remember Love?" (the Macross theme song) featured the character Minmay as vocalist, and the release reached #7 on the Oricon music charts. This is covered in the linked Kotaku article. Additional attentive coverage of the character appears in chapter six of the anthology Media Convergence in Japan, edited by Patrick W. Galbraith and Jason G. Karlin and (published under a Creative Commons license by the academic collective Kinema Club). From a cursory look, a good deal of the GoogleScholar hits are similarly about Minmay's history as the first 'virtual/fictional idol'. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 07:51, 18 May 2024 (UTC) - Weak Keep per Hydrangeans - I somewhat suspected that, even if sources regarding the notability of the in-universe character might be weak, there would be some regarding the real-life popularity and influence of the music attributed to her. I am not entirely happy with the English sources as none of them are super long - there's quite a number of reliable sources that all talk about her notability as one of the earliest examples of a "virtual idol" that gained popularity in the real world, but don't say much more than that. But the sources available, combined with the issues regarding the best way to cover the character in other articles as mentioned by Jclemens above, make me lean towards keeping. I would guess there might be some good Japanese-language sources regarding the topic of the real-world notability of Minmay as well, but unfortunately, as I mentioned above, the Japanese Wikipedia article is currently all made up of in-universe information attributed largely to primary sources, so no luck using that as a resource for more non-English sourcing. Rorshacma (talk) 16:03, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
Thor (The Asylum)
- Thor (The Asylum) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Does not meet WP:GNG--coverage is limited to within the context of reviews of Almighty Thor. Cribbing a reception section out of snippets of reviews of that film that comment on the titular character borders on absurd. Restoring the redirect to Almighty Thor seems most appropriate. signed, Rosguill talk 17:29, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Science fiction and fantasy, and Film. signed, Rosguill talk 17:29, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to Almighty Thor, the first movie this character appeared in. As described in the nomination, none of the sources are really about the character himself at all. They are general reviews or coverage of the films as a whole, without any kind of significant coverage specifically on the character that would warrant splitting it out into a separate article. On top of that, a number of these reviews are from websites that I am not sure would even qualify as being valid reliable sources. I honestly doubt this is going to be a very likely search, but as redirects are cheap, redirecting it to the main movie article would be fine. Rorshacma (talk) 18:09, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Merge to Almighty Thor; I'll note the sequel to that film has no article, but AGF that the first film should merit a single article. Jclemens (talk) 20:59, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Ghosts (Pac-Man)
- Ghosts (Pac-Man) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Recently unredirected by another user, who reverted on the basis of wanting a proper discussion as opposed to the previous BLAR. Adhering to this user's request for discussion, I have opened an AfD to determine what should happen to this article. The article's current sourcing state is particularly weak, with many uncited statements and a weak Reception section. If additional sources can be found to justify a split, then it would help the article's case, but right now it's very weak and not quite getting there, in my view. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 02:23, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements and Video games. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 02:23, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Additionally pinging @Kung Fu Man, who previously BLAR'd the article, and @Grapesoda22, who reverted the BLAR, for their inputs in this discussion. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 02:24, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect Per my previous AfD. While as usual I feel like a BLAR was unwarranted as there is no way in heck this is "uncontroversial", especially since it passed a previous AfD, I still feel precisely the same way about the article I did before. There is not much here to warrant a standalone character article. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 06:51, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep While being bold is all nice and well, the consensus of the last deletion discussion of keeping from 2020 is not so old as to be ignored. The nomination claims there to be
many uncited statements
, but actually there is only the lead, where references are not generally expected, and one more unreferenced part where still the primary source is present. So just taking the referenced part, we already have an article which is beyond the length of a stub, ergo this topic fulfills the requirements of notability WP:GNG/WP:WHYN. Additionally, while the BLAR claims thattrying to find sources has proven fruitless
, the previous deletion discussion lists three web articles with the ghosts as the main topic (+ the CNN video), only a fraction of one of which has been used in the article, as listed by (Oinkers42) and detailed by Darkknight2149. Lastly, if the sources here weresignificant *to* Pac-Man, but not on their own
, again as claimed in the BLAR, then why have no attempts been made to integrate at least some of them into Pac-Man as is suggested by Wikipedia:Deletion policy?
- Now as the first deletion discussion was not that long ago, pinging the further participants in case they are still around and interested in the topic: @Namcokid47, Eddie891, Jhenderson777, Balle010, TTN, Rtkat3, Toughpigs, Captain Galaxy, Piotrus, Dream Focus, Shooterwalker, and Ret.Prof:. Daranios (talk) 11:22, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Source analysis Let's break this down:
- This Kotaku article is an examination of notes regarding the character AI...which pertains strictly to the scope of the original Pac-Man as a game element within Pac-Man. It's the equivalent of making an article for a video game gun because the gun is the strongest in that particular title.
- Business Insider's article is also regarding Pac-Man development info, though at least gives a bit more commentary on the ghosts separate of the source in terms of design. It doesn't however help to establish why they should be separate.
- This Game Informer article is weirdly more reception for Pac-Man than the Ghosts? It can be cited for reception but won't be the biggest amount of commentary, but it's also the strongest source for actual reception. And this information is mostly already cited in the article.
- the aforementioned CNN article which goes hand in hand with the Kotaku ref.
- Now these are just the sources brought up during the AfD, but one has to seriously consider what a source is saying. Additionally trying to hold up a 2020 AfD as a gold standard for a Keep when things have improved (including several Smash Bros. related character articles that had similarly weak reception) is a folly. Previously I made a comment that the Koopa Troopa article should have been kept because there was nowhere for that information to go. Here I contend the opposite: the worthwhile information is perfectly fine to merge into the Pac-Man game or series article, and what's here when that's considered is just too weak relying on lists, quips and WP:ITSPOPULAR.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 11:41, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: Given the explanation of the sources above, we should still be ok for !keep. 2020 was around when I started participating in AfD and the discussion seems to be about of the same quality as the ones now... Oaktree b (talk) 14:07, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- They've even done peer-reviewed articles about them: [5], although some might be tongue-in-cheek, we could at least argue the social impact of the ghosts. clicking on the Gscholar link in the lead brings up several journal articles; it seems the "Pac Man ghosts" are used as an analogue for a variety of things being studied in several fields. Oaktree b (talk) 14:09, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per Oaktree and Kung Fu Man's source analysis. Conyo14 (talk) 16:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: The previous consensus still holds. Kung Fu Man's source analysis didn't mention the source that I added and mentioned in the AfD discussion -- Television Cartoon Shows: An Illustrated Encyclopedia, 1949-2003 (McFarland & Co, 2005), which discusses how the creators of the 1982 cartoon handled the problem of depicting the hero eating the ghosts. Toughpigs (talk) 17:29, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Weak Keep for now. I may come back to this later, but I feel like there is room for expansion with the sourcing this article has right now. If it can't be for whatever other reason that gets brought then I will lean towards redirect (merge). That being said, has anyone checked for Japanese sources yet? Just thought would be worth mentioning...... CaptainGalaxy 19:03, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep https://www.destructoid.com/blinky-inky-pinky-and-clyde-a-small-onomastic-study/ and https://kotaku.com/pac-man-ghosts-are-smarter-than-you-think-1683857357 prove reliable sources give them significant coverage. Dream Focus 20:52, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Weak keep Despite BLAR-ing it (and still feeling BLAR is a positive motion), I feel the found sources now do indicate some notability. I would however suggest to any editors currently not engaged in other projects to work the sources in, as "well it's on the AfD page!" doesn't really give a good indication especially four years later, and not in light of improving standards.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 21:03, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- The Destructoid reference was in the section you deleted. I think the information is better portrayed in a table than just text in the article. Does anyone else have an opinion on this section? [6] Dream Focus 21:12, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- A better approach would probably be bullet points and using the Nihongo template to be honest, but that can be done when the dev section is rewritten. Tables in the middle of character articles unless you're doing a list tend to be pretty rough on the reader. (I also feel some consideration should be done that most of the later added ghosts may not have the same level of notability, especially given those citation needed tags, but I digress as that's another matter).--Kung Fu Man (talk) 21:23, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- The Destructoid reference was in the section you deleted. I think the information is better portrayed in a table than just text in the article. Does anyone else have an opinion on this section? [6] Dream Focus 21:12, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per the sources provided above. MKsLifeInANutshell (talk) 11:06, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
- Strong Keep, characters are well known and article is well sourced. Davidgoodheart (talk) 04:49, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per above Cos (X + Z) 19:39, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep, as this discussion has demonstrated there is coverage in games media journalism and peer-reviewed academic research. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 20:03, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. I have some concerns about the level of independence from the original game, but I think that there is something to be said about the AfD result of Koopa Troopa essentially boiling down to Koopa Troopa being iconic enough, as demonstrated from sources, that it should be kept even if the reception was a little light. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 19:39, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Good faith re-statement from last AFD. Consensus can change, but I believe this is settled. Even as thinly characterized sprites, they have received more than enough discussion in reliable sources. The sources explain their importance to gaming history. Shooterwalker (talk) 18:47, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Vette (Star Wars)
- Vette (Star Wars) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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It still feels like the only good source is [7] that. The controversy were mostly discussed about the game, similarly like Controversies surrounding Mass Effect 3 and not the character. It doesn't help notability about the character either, AND may be WP:UNDUE or whatever it is. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 13:51, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements and Video games. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 13:51, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- Merge to the character list. As with the last AfD, most coverage about her is about a single controversy, and it feels undue to spin off into its own page. Still, I doubt this will reach a different outcome than last time. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 15:39, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science fiction and fantasy-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 17:55, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- Merge per Zxcvbnm's statement. MKsLifeInANutshell (talk) 07:40, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting, always specify a target article if you are proposing a Merge or Redirect. We have hundreds (thousands?) of articles on Star Wars, its worlds and characters on many different platforms (film, TV, books, video games, maybe board games (?)) and the closer should be guessing which one you think is the most appropriate.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 16:48, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Merge per Zxcvbnm, as WP:ATD. Doesn't meet WP:SIGCOV but can be preserved in a logical place. Shooterwalker (talk) 18:46, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Merge per Zxcvbnm's analysis. For the target, I would assume everyone above meant for it to be merged to Characters of the Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic series, as that was the target proposed in the last, No Consensus AFD discussion. Rorshacma (talk) 19:53, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Malhun Hatun (fictional character)
- Malhun Hatun (fictional character) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:GNG. Having hard time to find any valuable source per WP:BEFORE + character has no reception at all. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 10:48, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Science fiction and fantasy, and Television. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 10:48, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:14, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the film. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 04:49, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: I searched Malhun Hatun without "fictional character" and went to Google News and found tons of sources about her. Perhaps you should tag it for notability for a week or two weeks, then nominate it for deletion or maybe an assessment, although that's just my opinion. Kazama16 (talk) 14:11, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 11:33, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, voorts (talk/contributions) 01:08, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
List of recurring Entourage characters
- List of recurring Entourage characters (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Adding together many non-notable topics still gives you a non-notable topic. The individual character articles like Ari Gold (Entourage) or Vincent Chase might reach the threshold of significant coverage required by WP:NOTABILITY. But this miscellaneous list does not. Jontesta (talk) 22:04, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Jontesta (talk) 22:04, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Television and Lists. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 00:12, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Entourage is notable, and WP:CSC #2 applies to a list of individually NN characters from a notable show or franchise. Jclemens (talk) 06:01, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:01, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: Fails NLIST, nothing found showing this has been discussed as a group by independent reliable sources. fancrufty article, does not serve a nav purpose, fails CLN. WP:CSC #2 does not say that a stand alone list is always notable or appropriate. // Timothy :: talk
- Delete: per TimothyBlue. Couldn't find significant coverage per WP:BEFORE. Shooterwalker (talk) 18:45, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: per TimothyBlue too. This list is fine on Fandom but I cannot see how it deserve a spot on Wikipedia, they are recurring characters after all. WP:ATD will be to prune it down and rename it as List of Entourage characters. SpacedFarmer (talk) 08:36, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- A couple things. First, "adding together many non-notable topics" is one of three standard ways to make a list. Second, what's really being asked is whether, in an ideal version of a very long article on Entourage, there would be a listing of recurring characters. If so, using primary sources for basic information isn't a problem and spinning that list out to its own page isn't a problem. Personally, I'm skeptical that such a list would be merited, so probably err on the side of weak delete, but I'm not especially familiar with the show or the sourcing around it. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 13:04, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Cardiff Rift
- Cardiff Rift (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:GNG its WP:ALLPLOT and has been tagged for notability for 12 years Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 14:31, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Science fiction and fantasy, and Wales. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 14:31, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment Well, for one, Illuminating Torchwood has a lot to say about the topic at various places, but usually calls it "the Rift" or "the rift" rather than the Cardiff Rift. Daranios (talk) 15:09, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Daranios Any chance you could add this to the article (and ping me)? There is a receptions section already, but sourced to a meh newspaper so far, and nothing else. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 00:55, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Piotrus: I've added what I had thought to from Illuminating Torchwood, tough there is some more, as can also be seen in previews of pages not available at Google Books. Daranios (talk) 20:30, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Daranios Thank you. Weak keep for me considering the current state of the 'reception and analysis' section. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:43, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Piotrus: I've added what I had thought to from Illuminating Torchwood, tough there is some more, as can also be seen in previews of pages not available at Google Books. Daranios (talk) 20:30, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Daranios Any chance you could add this to the article (and ping me)? There is a receptions section already, but sourced to a meh newspaper so far, and nothing else. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 00:55, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment Collecting further sources, shorter but still relevant are: Once Upon a Time Lord, pp. 129-130, "'You guys and your cute little categories": Torchwood, The Space-Time Rift and Cardiff's Postmodern, Postcolonial and (avowedly) Pansexual Gothic", and very brief but calls it "a key point in the mythology of Doctor Who during the Tenth Doctor era", this web article. Daranios (talk) 07:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- That web aticle doenst count for very much. Valnet sources are not great for showing notability. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 12:36, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- @OlifanofmrTennant: I agree, was just listing it for future reference, useable as ScreenRant still counts as "reliable for entertainment-related topics". Might have phrased that better. Being convinced of the notability of the topic based on the other sources, I've gone ahead and added that to the article as low-hanging fruit. Daranios (talk)
- That web aticle doenst count for very much. Valnet sources are not great for showing notability. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 12:36, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Keep I believe the existing sources together establish notability. While there is currently an imbalance between plot and non-plot in the article, it is also not all plot, as I believe the criticism of the Cardiff Rift being a plot device for lazy writers is relevant despite being presented in a satirical manner. (The Register is considered a reliable source.) And these problems can be solved by normal editing with the listed sources. Daranios (talk) 11:11, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect or merge: This isn't really a separate topic from the fiction itself. I do see some mentions in sources, but not enough to reach WP:SIGCOV. Shooterwalker (talk) 18:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 22:31, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment The non-plot content has been expanded now since the beginning of this AfD. Daranios (talk) 11:27, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect or merge. This is dictionaty-definition fancruft.TheLongTone (talk) 14:22, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- @TheLongTone: WP:Fancruft: "The use of the term ... is not a substitute for a well-reasoned argument based on existing Wikipedia policies." Daranios (talk) 15:16, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Not if I was voting for deletion but its a valid argument for merging of redirecting. The article is fancruft; the topic can be adequately covered in a para elsewhere.TheLongTone (talk) 13:28, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- @TheLongTone: WP:Fancruft: "The use of the term ... is not a substitute for a well-reasoned argument based on existing Wikipedia policies." Daranios (talk) 15:16, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment Where should this be redirected/merged to? Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 14:58, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Divided between editors arguing to Keep this article and those advocating a Merge or Redirect but who have offered no target article so it would be impossible to carry out their recommendation.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 22:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)- Weak Keep this article needs a heavy rewrite but I feel there's enough to show notability, especially since there really isn't a viable merge target. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 13:09, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Merge target What about Wormholes in fiction? Keeping this ludicrous mass of cruft as a standalone article simply because of doubt as to where it should be merge/redirected to is lame beyond belief.13:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- TheLongTone, it's a real and practical concern. XFDcloser can't close a discussion as Redirect or Merge without a target article identified. It just can't be done if that is the consensus opinion. And there has to be agreement on what that target article is. That's how the software works. Liz Read! Talk! 03:47, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Possibly List of Torchwood items? Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 18:15, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- Merge target as list of Torchwood items. I'd also support a merge to the main Torchwood series article. Shooterwalker (talk) 18:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Possibly List of Torchwood items? Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 18:15, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
Fictional element Proposed deletions
no articles proposed for deletion at this time