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::::I have another question the regarding this wording change. What then of international broadcast ratings? If we aren't mentioning in the broadcast section, why then should we mention their rating info? - [[User:Favre1fan93|Favre1fan93]] ([[User talk:Favre1fan93|talk]]) 17:50, 22 February 2015 (UTC) |
::::I have another question the regarding this wording change. What then of international broadcast ratings? If we aren't mentioning in the broadcast section, why then should we mention their rating info? - [[User:Favre1fan93|Favre1fan93]] ([[User talk:Favre1fan93|talk]]) 17:50, 22 February 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::I think if we're mentioning a premiere rating, then you would also include the date of the premiere for context. If it's the average rating for a season, then I don't think that it matters in the big picture. Film doesn't necessarily include the release dates for overseas, but they will include the box office information that goes with it. [[User:Bignole|<small>'''<span style="background:Maroon;color:Gold"> BIGNOLE </span>'''</small>]] [[User talk:Bignole|<small>(Contact me)</small>]] 17:52, 22 February 2015 (UTC) |
:::::I think if we're mentioning a premiere rating, then you would also include the date of the premiere for context. If it's the average rating for a season, then I don't think that it matters in the big picture. Film doesn't necessarily include the release dates for overseas, but they will include the box office information that goes with it. [[User:Bignole|<small>'''<span style="background:Maroon;color:Gold"> BIGNOLE </span>'''</small>]] [[User talk:Bignole|<small>(Contact me)</small>]] 17:52, 22 February 2015 (UTC) |
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::::::So in an episode article we could add airing information for non-country-of-origin broadcasts if we also added ratings information for said broadcasts? - [[User:Adamstom.97|adamstom97]] ([[User talk:Adamstom.97|talk]]) 10:34, 24 February 2015 (UTC) |
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== [[WP:TVINTL]] and [[Da Vinci's Demons#International broadcast]] == |
== [[WP:TVINTL]] and [[Da Vinci's Demons#International broadcast]] == |
Revision as of 10:34, 24 February 2015
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WP:TVUPCOMING
I understand the new WP:TVUPCOMING guideline where years cannot be added to a section titles before episodes air, however, why is that, this article, a featured article which is similar to any List of episodes article, has years in section headings for future events? What's the difference? As an editor who is in favor of including future years ("2014–15") in headings for shows that have sourced air dates for those years, I think it needs to be addressed as to what the difference is. Sorry for bringing up an old topic; I'm not expecting a change, just an answer. Thank you. Drovethrughosts (talk) 21:48, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
- Well, first it's a film series article and not a TV article and they don't set those regulations (the real question there is how did the article become featured when it's going to continually growing and changing as new films come out...hard to establish "stability"). Even if you come across TV articles that have the future years in the section header that probably has more to do with the fact that we cannot police every article. When we see it, we change it. As for why we don't include it, that's outlined I the MOS itself. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 21:52, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Drovethrughosts: If you were for some reason looking for an "apples-to-apples" comparison in the MCU realm, you would be looking for this article, which you will see is following WP:TVUPCOMING because it is within the TV project and MOS. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 00:56, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I can see that, thanks. But still, there is no difference, regardless if it's film or TV, it's still putting future years in section headings. Weird why it's okay for that but not this. No biggie, not going to push it anymore. Drovethrughosts (talk) 13:52, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
- Again, there is a difference. The difference is that they are separate WikiProjects that provide separate guidance. Additionally, don't mistake not addressing it as agreement for use. We have a lot of things that appear and happen in articles that are not directly addressed by any MOS, guideline, or policy. Those items are often left to the discretion of the editors on that page until such time that it becomes a community wide issue that requires addressing. It was here, hence why it was addressed. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 14:16, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I can see that, thanks. But still, there is no difference, regardless if it's film or TV, it's still putting future years in section headings. Weird why it's okay for that but not this. No biggie, not going to push it anymore. Drovethrughosts (talk) 13:52, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Drovethrughosts: If you were for some reason looking for an "apples-to-apples" comparison in the MCU realm, you would be looking for this article, which you will see is following WP:TVUPCOMING because it is within the TV project and MOS. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 00:56, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
International Broadcasts
There is a dispute between me and Favre1fan93 about international broadcast on Agent Carter. Is it limited to only English-speaking countries? I added the Middle East and Southeast Asian broadcasts because they air it in English. Maybe changing WP:TVINTL to include all countries that air shows in English? Dcbanners (talk) 11:38, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- This issue was discussed, at length, at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Television in late 2013. Essentially, Favre1fan93's position is what was agreed upon. --AussieLegend (✉) 12:30, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- DC, the reason we don't include every country that is not English speaking is because it would ultimately be an never ending list. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, and the non-English speaking countries have their own Wikipedia. Yes, it was aired in English, but the country itself is not an English speaking country. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 12:53, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- What about Asian (Phillipines, Singapore, Malaysia) and Middle Eastern (UAE) countries that have English as an official language? Dcbanners (talk) 13:02, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- Theoretically, if "English" is the primary language of the country, then yes. Not an official language, the primary language. Again, we're not an indiscriminate collection of information, so the random Middle Easter country (which btw, English is not the primary language there, it's a secondary language that is taught) that is primarily English may not be relevant. In the end, you're right that the MOS needs to be updated. It should say "where English is the primary language", not "English speaking countries", as many countries speak it even though it isn't their primary language. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 13:30, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- Is this list sufficient to help guide the decisions? List of territorial entities where English is an official language I admit, I've added India, the Philippines, South Africa to some of these lists because someone once argued that these are English-speaking nations, which is what WP:TVINTL requires. If we mean "primary language", I propose we tweak TVINTL accordingly. Also I'm really bummed that Dcbanners was hit with a 72 hour block for edit-warring over this, considering it was based on a misinterpretation, and thus was easily-preventable. Dc, keep a cool head! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:35, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, I think we need to tweak the MOS to be "primary language". The list for "primary" is much smaller, and if we say "official" then, as you've provided, we're opening the door to an extremely long list that does not serve the readers. We're not here to list every single broadcast of a show (which is not the spirit of the MOS for international broadcastings). BIGNOLE (Contact me) 16:03, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- The MOS should explicitly list the countries to be included and not depend on a fuzzy definitions of inclusion per primary, official, de facto, de jure usage. I too am bummed by the excessive 72 hour block on a valued contributor for basically trying to do the right thing and tripping over something that deserves a slap on the wrist. 24hrs is normal for this, WTF. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:17, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- Sadly, I believe it was his second block for edit-warring. I agree with adding more specificity to the MOS. I pretty much always agree with adding more specificity to the MOS. So who do we care about? Australia, New Zealand, the US, Canada, the UK. Who else? The Caribbean? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:25, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- I wouldn't say "fuzzy definition" is accurate if you say only "primary" language. The countries kind of tell us if it is their primary language or not. "Official" isn't necessarily primary. I think if we get into the habit of going so specific that you say, "you can only use these ones", you're going to limit the page and create more problems and edit wars. This is because, by just saying "these countries" and not providing a rational reason, people that believe a particular country warrants inclusion are going to edit war over it. If you say, "just primary" then at least you have something to fall back on. You can point out that the country does not recognize "English" as the primary language. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 16:31, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- I think the 5 major English-speaking countries only as there is likely to be universal acceptance for inclusion as both major and notable. There should be demonstrated a strong consensus for inclusion of other countries in the list and that discussion should be part of the MOS discussion, not part of each article. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:38, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- I wouldn't say "fuzzy definition" is accurate if you say only "primary" language. The countries kind of tell us if it is their primary language or not. "Official" isn't necessarily primary. I think if we get into the habit of going so specific that you say, "you can only use these ones", you're going to limit the page and create more problems and edit wars. This is because, by just saying "these countries" and not providing a rational reason, people that believe a particular country warrants inclusion are going to edit war over it. If you say, "just primary" then at least you have something to fall back on. You can point out that the country does not recognize "English" as the primary language. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 16:31, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- Sadly, I believe it was his second block for edit-warring. I agree with adding more specificity to the MOS. I pretty much always agree with adding more specificity to the MOS. So who do we care about? Australia, New Zealand, the US, Canada, the UK. Who else? The Caribbean? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:25, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- The MOS should explicitly list the countries to be included and not depend on a fuzzy definitions of inclusion per primary, official, de facto, de jure usage. I too am bummed by the excessive 72 hour block on a valued contributor for basically trying to do the right thing and tripping over something that deserves a slap on the wrist. 24hrs is normal for this, WTF. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:17, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, I think we need to tweak the MOS to be "primary language". The list for "primary" is much smaller, and if we say "official" then, as you've provided, we're opening the door to an extremely long list that does not serve the readers. We're not here to list every single broadcast of a show (which is not the spirit of the MOS for international broadcastings). BIGNOLE (Contact me) 16:03, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- Is this list sufficient to help guide the decisions? List of territorial entities where English is an official language I admit, I've added India, the Philippines, South Africa to some of these lists because someone once argued that these are English-speaking nations, which is what WP:TVINTL requires. If we mean "primary language", I propose we tweak TVINTL accordingly. Also I'm really bummed that Dcbanners was hit with a 72 hour block for edit-warring over this, considering it was based on a misinterpretation, and thus was easily-preventable. Dc, keep a cool head! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:35, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- Theoretically, if "English" is the primary language of the country, then yes. Not an official language, the primary language. Again, we're not an indiscriminate collection of information, so the random Middle Easter country (which btw, English is not the primary language there, it's a secondary language that is taught) that is primarily English may not be relevant. In the end, you're right that the MOS needs to be updated. It should say "where English is the primary language", not "English speaking countries", as many countries speak it even though it isn't their primary language. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 13:30, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- What about Asian (Phillipines, Singapore, Malaysia) and Middle Eastern (UAE) countries that have English as an official language? Dcbanners (talk) 13:02, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- DC, the reason we don't include every country that is not English speaking is because it would ultimately be an never ending list. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, and the non-English speaking countries have their own Wikipedia. Yes, it was aired in English, but the country itself is not an English speaking country. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 12:53, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
That is a slippery slope to go down, I cannot think of the last time I've seen any project regulate such specifics in articles like that. Film doesn't do it, and that is our closest medium (they are released in far more diverse markets as well). I'll be interested to see what others think (though, it would probably be best to have this discussion at the MOS than on the main project page). BIGNOLE (Contact me) 16:57, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- Closest is MOS:Film#Release which basically says notable only. If we followed that we would only list broadcasts that had significant coverage in reliable third party sources with more than a directory listing for the broadcast section. That type of guideline I could get behind and it would significantly reduce the size of the International broadcast section if followed. That would also mean that whether or not the broadcast was in an English speaking country becomes irrelevant if there is significant coverage to support notability. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:16, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not saying that I agree with that approach, but it is certainly better than arbitrarily identifying a select few countries to include. It would definitely affect the international broadcast section, by virtually making it obsolete in most articles (which is not necessarily a bad thing, considering how prevalent the giant tabular lists are that contain every country and their TV channel that a show appears). BIGNOLE (Contact me) 17:24, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- I would be more supportive of changing the wording to "primary language". Using the article Cyphoid linked to above, if the show is in English, that would be: USA, Canada, UK, Ireland, Australia/NZ/"Australasia", Nigeria, Singapore, and Caribbean nations. Out of all of those, in a general case setting, you probably will not find info on the Caribbean nations or Nigeria. That leaves then a potential of up to six broadcast listings (again, for English). We have to remember that Wikipedia is not a TV guide, so we can't be listing things indefinitely. However, I would be supportive of using this language, with a mix of Geraldo's suggestion of including significant coverage broadcasters. In any event, whatever changes we make, they must have clear definitions. So if we go with the first option I mentioned, what exists for us to link to, for users to check if a language is the primary one for a certain country? And any more notability guidelines for the second option? Because some users may come out with "X show got picked up by this network. That's notable!" - Favre1fan93 (talk) 00:05, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- Just as an FYI to my first question I posed, this site may be an option, if we could link to it. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 00:10, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- Sounds reasonable to me. A wider range of acceptable nations isn't the death knell for TVINTL, but requiring sources would certainly help manage the cruft. Sure, Nigeria may be a primarily English-speaking nation, but if nobody can provide reliable sources, the content could be omitted. The lack of sources is probably the biggest obstacle for TVINTL. I barely trust the various "reliable" sources in the US (TVGuide.com/Zap2It/TV.MSN.COM) for accurate airdates for big-money US shows, but even beloved Canada has a dearth of reliable sources. Frankly, I'm not sure why TVINTL is even a thing with the source pool being so poor. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:19, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- I would be really happy to deprecate the International Broadcast section completely, grandfathered for existing articles but strongly discouraged for new and replace it with a release section similar to how it is done with film articles. I have never seen the value of a section that just lists a bunch of countries and dates. Table or not this is still TV guide type data. There should be more well-referenced meat in this type of section. Geraldo Perez (talk) 04:35, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- If you get rid of the section, then you cannot grandfather older articles. Articles would need to change. We've never grandfathered stuff in the past. When we got rid of trivia sections, we didn't let articles keep that that already had them. When we removed IMDb as a source we didn't let articles keep them that had them.
- I would be really happy to deprecate the International Broadcast section completely, grandfathered for existing articles but strongly discouraged for new and replace it with a release section similar to how it is done with film articles. I have never seen the value of a section that just lists a bunch of countries and dates. Table or not this is still TV guide type data. There should be more well-referenced meat in this type of section. Geraldo Perez (talk) 04:35, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- Sounds reasonable to me. A wider range of acceptable nations isn't the death knell for TVINTL, but requiring sources would certainly help manage the cruft. Sure, Nigeria may be a primarily English-speaking nation, but if nobody can provide reliable sources, the content could be omitted. The lack of sources is probably the biggest obstacle for TVINTL. I barely trust the various "reliable" sources in the US (TVGuide.com/Zap2It/TV.MSN.COM) for accurate airdates for big-money US shows, but even beloved Canada has a dearth of reliable sources. Frankly, I'm not sure why TVINTL is even a thing with the source pool being so poor. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:19, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not saying that I agree with that approach, but it is certainly better than arbitrarily identifying a select few countries to include. It would definitely affect the international broadcast section, by virtually making it obsolete in most articles (which is not necessarily a bad thing, considering how prevalent the giant tabular lists are that contain every country and their TV channel that a show appears). BIGNOLE (Contact me) 17:24, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- That said, I'm not against dismantling it. I think that any relevant international broadcasts can be listed in prose form in the basic "Broadcast" section. Most of the time, you're talking about (maybe) a paragraphs worth of information anyway. It is rare (not unheard of) for a TV article to have a really fleshed out international section that is more than just listing countries, dates, and probably TV channels. That said, I would not get rid of the sections that are fleshed out into well developed pieces.
- So, I think we have 2 decisions here. First, do we get rid of the idea of "international broadcast" and follow the film route of only including notable releases? Or, do we just more specifically define what should be included in an international section? BIGNOLE (Contact me) 05:28, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- I don't particularly see the value of the section since as a list it invites unsourced cruft, and as a prose section it is limited to a scant few examples of English-speaking nations, most of which are unsourced. Do we need an RfC to deal with this? I remember the Rayna Jaymes canvassing situation after we passed the Series Overview guidelines, and I think at least one other editor was critical of the changes, as if we were hiding the discussion or something... I could go either way though, between deprecating the section and being super-specific about what the section should contain. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 07:08, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- I don't see any encyclopaedic value in the current format. I actually see more value in the old tables as a way of demonstrating the world-wide recognition of the various series, but obviously we don't want to use tables again. Something along the lines of "The Real Wikipedians Who Have No Lives has been marketed in 33 countries including Angola,[1] Botswana,[2] Bolivia,[3], New Zealand,[4] South Africa,[5] and Yemini[6]." I feel that's likely to cause more problems than it solves though. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:28, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- I feel if we get into a situation where we go more the Film project route, we are going to get in a very murky area of what is notable and what isn't. To me, it is somewhat easier to define that with a film, because under that guideline, you have the generally single release date in the country of production, and then notable releases become known. With television series, you have so many other factors such as delayed broadcasts in other territories, broadcasters changing after so many seasons, etc. If we only go on notability, some series, in my opinion, would not feature info that, to me is worthwhile to have. For example would a series say as Doctor Who only be limited to the UK info, or would the US get included too? Also, at least for network shows, probably 90% of the time a US show is tied to a Canadian broadcast. That's why I feel there should be some thing like the primary language to define what is and isn't included. That way, we would have a clear cut knowledge of it (and again, with any broadcasts not falling under that heading if it is indeed notable). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 04:07, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
@Cyphoidbomb:, what we will need to do is decide here what we want to do and how it should look. Then, we go to the MOS and make an official proposal. Following that, we will need to do legitimate "canvassing" to all the projects to let them know of the proposed change to give them ample time to either agree or disagree. This way, no one can say we're hiding anything. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 12:38, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Amending the MOS
@Cyphoidbomb:, @AussieLegend:, @Geraldo Perez:, @Favre1fan93:, @Dcbanners:, We discussed at length what to do about the International Broadcast information, now we need to decide exactly how it will look. Let's start discussing the change here please. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 12:47, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
- In terms of organizing the framework of what needs to be done, shall we start with a to do list? I'm not sure where exactly we left off. We're not deprecating TVINTL. Did we agree on whether we want to add specific nations or keep the vague "English-speaking nations" as supported by List of territorial entities where English is an official language or the CIA world fact book. Please feel free to add and change below. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:08, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
- To Do
- Resolve consensus: Do we want to deprecate TVINTL compltely?
- Resolve consensus: If we do not want to deprecate TVINTL, do we want to name specific nations we are interested in, or keep it vague? ex: Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Nigeria, Republic of Ireland, US, UK vs. English-speaking nations only? Obviously we keep the language that tells editors what to do about noteworthy events in non-English-speaking nations. (Simpsons/ProSieben example).
- Require references as a deal-breaker for inclusion.
- ????
- Address backlash from editors who never participate in discussion here, but hate the new proposal...
Item 1
- Do not deprecate - Though I could go either way on whether or not the Broadcast section should be deprecated. In my experiences gnoming the kids' TV articles, I rarely see a broadcast section that conveys useful information. It's usually an long list or table of nations, typically unsourced, or a short list that is typically unsourced. I do, however, see the value in keeping the Broadcast section around for more significant TV series (like prime time comedies or dramas) for which there would naturally be more attention, more sources, and presumably more information to convey. For this reason I am somewhat reluctantly leaning toward not deprecating. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:07, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
- Deprecate - I'm ok with removing, with a new write-up that discusses how to identify notable international releases. I don't think that simply airing overseas is notable, at least not in a specific venue (unless otherwise stated). We can have a blanket statement, with sources, that says something to the effect of "it premiered internationally on date x". BIGNOLE (Contact me) 02:31, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Item 2
If we're not deprecating TVINTL completely, then my vote is to just stick with "Primary English" (as in that is the official language of the country), with notable exceptions provided via source. Said exceptions could be outlined in the MOS. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 02:54, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
- Is the primary language of a country really the right deciding factor? It seems to me the Broadcast section should be focused mainly on country/countries of origin, and other English-speaking countries should be subject to the same notability considerations as non-English-speaking countries, and covered in the same way. To do otherwise would seem to involve an English-centric POV, wouldn't it? --Fru1tbat (talk) 20:55, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
- That's my point. If we go by what you're suggesting, that would basically deprecate the idea of "TVINTL", and turn into a purely case-by-case basis instead of a "accept everyone" approach that it is now. I'm saying, if we don't do that, then we need to set a standard for how to identify which are appropriate to list, which to mean should be only countries where English is the official language (there's a list). BIGNOLE (Contact me) 21:49, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Another suggestion: Should we include premieres for future seasons internationally. They are reliably sourced and English broadcasts. It's important to keep international broadcast up-to-date. Dcbanners (talk) 02:18, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- I disagree with this approach. We'd just end up with a giant list of "this season aired in this country on this date, and this country and this date. Then this season aired....". You'd have an entire page devoted to broadcast dates for a show like The Simpsons. Remember, being verifiable does not mean it should be included. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 02:25, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- Multiple season information is just as important as the premiere date. I was thinking about adding it so the international broadcast doesn't get out of date. If there are a lot of seasons (example: CSI), then I will agree with your idea. The premieres can go on the season pages. If there are few seasons and there aren't separate articles, then it can all go on the main page. In addition, there are tons of articles (such as Grimm) that are like this. Dcbanners (talk) 10:54, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- We're not a current events website, so there isn't a worry about "out of date". Just listing every date of broadcast, for every season, in all countries (whether limited or not) is just creating a collection of indiscriminate information, not to mention getting back to this TV Guide type of approach (which is forbidden as well). The fact that there are articles that already do this does not mean that it should be done. There are ton of articles that list every broadcast in a giant table, and the MOS clearly says not to do that. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 13:16, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- We actually are a current events website. The main page lists them in the "In the news" section. We're not listing every broadcast date for every season, just only a few. A lot of good/featured articles list future seasons. If you think it's a "TV Guide", then we should just remove the broadcast section entirely. If so, then we need to remove timeslots that are in virtually all ratings tables. I don't mean listing every broadcast in a table. Information that's "out of date" is not useful. Dcbanners (talk) 18:13, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- We're not a current events website, so there isn't a worry about "out of date". Just listing every date of broadcast, for every season, in all countries (whether limited or not) is just creating a collection of indiscriminate information, not to mention getting back to this TV Guide type of approach (which is forbidden as well). The fact that there are articles that already do this does not mean that it should be done. There are ton of articles that list every broadcast in a giant table, and the MOS clearly says not to do that. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 13:16, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- Multiple season information is just as important as the premiere date. I was thinking about adding it so the international broadcast doesn't get out of date. If there are a lot of seasons (example: CSI), then I will agree with your idea. The premieres can go on the season pages. If there are few seasons and there aren't separate articles, then it can all go on the main page. In addition, there are tons of articles (such as Grimm) that are like this. Dcbanners (talk) 10:54, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- The question that needs to be answered is what is notable. Why do we need to have season premiere dates for all countries that air a show? Why are they notable? I think it's safe to say that it has been agreed that the country of origin is notable. It has not been established, though, that all other countries are as well. And just having a "broadcast" section does not make it a "TV guide" - some of it is valid encyclopedic information. --Fru1tbat (talk) 18:59, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- What about listing info for only Canada, United Kingdom/Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa. Those are considered the "major" English countries and reliable sources for those countries abound. Dcbanners (talk) 19:54, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- I think what Bignole and Fr1utbat are saying, is that there is no inherent notability. If Canada releases a TV series that airs first in Canada, what does it matter that it airs in the US on ABC? Maybe in an article on "Series broadcast on ABC" there would be relevance. There are some exceptions. For instance if a Canadian series first aired in the United States, or was produced for a US audience, then it might be noteworthy to include information about both national premieres. But providing this information for all English-speaking nations without any real context to indicate the importance of the information doesn't seem particularly useful. It's like we're just ticking boxes on a form—"South Africa, check. Ireland, check." Would we reasonably expect to find this information in a print encyclopedia? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:08, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- Is enwiki meant to be a collection of notable encyclopedic articles that happens to be written in English or is a collection of notable articles of interest only to the English speaking world? If the former, then restricting content to only what is assumed to be important in primary English countries would go against those goals and that includes what is in the broadcast section of TV series articles. A simpler standard would include info that we can demonstrate with reliable sources meets our notability standards irrespective of country or language and exclude info that we can't demonstrate notability for. Generally we can assume notability in the country of origin or first airing or we probably couldn't demonstrate notability for an article all. As I mentioned before, I think MOS:Film#Release strikes the correct balance and I suggest we do something similar. Geraldo Perez (talk) 20:32, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Also look at Category:Television series by country - will the manual of style cover all that is listed there? Geraldo Perez (talk) 20:45, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Geraldo Perez. If we remove non-English broadcasts, then we might as well remove anything that isn't related to an English-speaking country. MOS:Film#Release won't work here because there isn't a website that lists every international release. IMDB lists foreign release dates for films. In addition, several "primarily English" nations (such as Jamaica) don't have sources for this, but large non-English countries (like Germany; this website is very good because it has episode guides) do. Dcbanners (talk) 21:00, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- I think Geraldo's point is that in WP:FILM, they only list foreign information when it is notable, not simply because it exists (or doesn't exist). We're not here to track every international release of a TV show, but if something notable happened in Japan, Germany, or the United Kingdom with relation to the broadcasting of say Jane the Virgin, then we would note it. If not, then we wouldn't simply note "Jane the Virgin premiered in Country X on date Y." It's just indiscriminate information. There is no context as to why that is relevant. Timeslots are relevant in ratings tables because there is context. You're seeing how the show compared to other shows in that slot. That is not true for broadcasting dates. It holds little value other than to say, "Hey, it appeared here too". Since we're not a TV Guide, then it isn't like people should be coming here to find out if a show is airing in their home country. Also, Wiki itself is not a current events website. We have a section on the main page for current events, that is not intended to mean that articles are written from that perspective. See WP:NOTNEWS, specifically the "not all verifiable events are suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia", and #2 in that list. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 21:11, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- I think we should go with something like "The series airs in (number) countries". Many television shows (such as SpongeBob SquarePants and The Walking Dead) air on the same channels in different countries through various feeds. I believe it's unnecessary to list every broadcast if they air like that. Dcbanners (talk) 21:15, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Geraldo Perez. If we remove non-English broadcasts, then we might as well remove anything that isn't related to an English-speaking country. MOS:Film#Release won't work here because there isn't a website that lists every international release. IMDB lists foreign release dates for films. In addition, several "primarily English" nations (such as Jamaica) don't have sources for this, but large non-English countries (like Germany; this website is very good because it has episode guides) do. Dcbanners (talk) 21:00, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- Is enwiki meant to be a collection of notable encyclopedic articles that happens to be written in English or is a collection of notable articles of interest only to the English speaking world? If the former, then restricting content to only what is assumed to be important in primary English countries would go against those goals and that includes what is in the broadcast section of TV series articles. A simpler standard would include info that we can demonstrate with reliable sources meets our notability standards irrespective of country or language and exclude info that we can't demonstrate notability for. Generally we can assume notability in the country of origin or first airing or we probably couldn't demonstrate notability for an article all. As I mentioned before, I think MOS:Film#Release strikes the correct balance and I suggest we do something similar. Geraldo Perez (talk) 20:32, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- I think what Bignole and Fr1utbat are saying, is that there is no inherent notability. If Canada releases a TV series that airs first in Canada, what does it matter that it airs in the US on ABC? Maybe in an article on "Series broadcast on ABC" there would be relevance. There are some exceptions. For instance if a Canadian series first aired in the United States, or was produced for a US audience, then it might be noteworthy to include information about both national premieres. But providing this information for all English-speaking nations without any real context to indicate the importance of the information doesn't seem particularly useful. It's like we're just ticking boxes on a form—"South Africa, check. Ireland, check." Would we reasonably expect to find this information in a print encyclopedia? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:08, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- What about listing info for only Canada, United Kingdom/Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa. Those are considered the "major" English countries and reliable sources for those countries abound. Dcbanners (talk) 19:54, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- The question that needs to be answered is what is notable. Why do we need to have season premiere dates for all countries that air a show? Why are they notable? I think it's safe to say that it has been agreed that the country of origin is notable. It has not been established, though, that all other countries are as well. And just having a "broadcast" section does not make it a "TV guide" - some of it is valid encyclopedic information. --Fru1tbat (talk) 18:59, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
I agree. That was something that I proposed above, that we just have a basic statement of, "The Walking Dead has also been broadcast in various international countries, the earliest broadcast being January 29, 2015." (or something like that). Everything else, in my opinion, should be based on notability of the broadcast. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 22:38, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Item 3
Sorry I'm late, guys. I personally believe that we should not deprecate the International broadcast parameter, but we should make the countries mentioned specific to each language Wikipedia. Much of the international broadcasters I've seen are, for the most part, unsourced and hard to verify for those who don't speak a particular country's language. Unless a show originated in a non-English speaking country (in example, Japanese anime), we should stick with English-speaking countries when dealing with international broadcasts. ElectricBurst(Electron firings)(Zaps) 08:44, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
- Are you saying any country that speaks English, or where English is the primary language? Those are two different things, as many countries speak English, and you can technically translate their websites on Google Translate. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 14:20, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Bold edit made
I've made a bold edit to the section in question that brings it in line with the MOS:FILM understanding of this. If someone wants to revert my edit, I'd appreciate it if reasoning was provided as to why such wording shouldn't be used here. Mdrnpndr (talk) 15:57, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- I'm ok with it. It just removes any need to define it beyond notable releases. I say we give this a bit, and notify the other projects (not sure if we did that when we started this discussion) and if there are no clear objections we start updated articles. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 16:33, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- So if my understanding is correct, a network show that originates in the US, where we would previously mention broadcasts in Canada, the UK, and the Australasia region, based on this wording change, we would not be mentioning these three regions along with the US, unless there is some notability to them? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:54, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- That is basically my understanding of the change—which I agree with. Notability should be more than a line in a scheduling guide and should be supported by some meat in a reliable source such as a review or some discussion about the series at the very least. Geraldo Perez (talk) 19:05, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- I have another question the regarding this wording change. What then of international broadcast ratings? If we aren't mentioning in the broadcast section, why then should we mention their rating info? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:50, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
- I think if we're mentioning a premiere rating, then you would also include the date of the premiere for context. If it's the average rating for a season, then I don't think that it matters in the big picture. Film doesn't necessarily include the release dates for overseas, but they will include the box office information that goes with it. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 17:52, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
- So in an episode article we could add airing information for non-country-of-origin broadcasts if we also added ratings information for said broadcasts? - adamstom97 (talk) 10:34, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
- I think if we're mentioning a premiere rating, then you would also include the date of the premiere for context. If it's the average rating for a season, then I don't think that it matters in the big picture. Film doesn't necessarily include the release dates for overseas, but they will include the box office information that goes with it. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 17:52, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
- I have another question the regarding this wording change. What then of international broadcast ratings? If we aren't mentioning in the broadcast section, why then should we mention their rating info? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:50, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
- That is basically my understanding of the change—which I agree with. Notability should be more than a line in a scheduling guide and should be supported by some meat in a reliable source such as a review or some discussion about the series at the very least. Geraldo Perez (talk) 19:05, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- So if my understanding is correct, a network show that originates in the US, where we would previously mention broadcasts in Canada, the UK, and the Australasia region, based on this wording change, we would not be mentioning these three regions along with the US, unless there is some notability to them? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:54, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
This is related to the above discussion (WT:Manual of Style/Television#International Broadcasts), but more specific in scope so I am asking it as a separate question.
Does "Da Vinci's Demons#International broadcast" satisfy "WP:TVINTL"? As currently written, in my opinion, it seems to be nothing more than a "TV guide" type listing of channels airing the show worldwide. Thanks in advance. - Marchjuly (talk) 02:49, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
- As it is currently written...no it doesn't. First, it's a giant table of channels and dates. That immediately brings in WP:NOTGUIDE. Second, it isn't a list of solely English speaking countries. Yes, they speak English in Germany, but that isn't an official language (let alone the primary language). So, in a nutshell, it doesn't meet the current guide and it certainly won't meet the new one that gets established (whenever we all have the free time to write it). BIGNOLE (Contact me) 02:52, 27 January 2015 (UTC)