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There's a discussion of a proposal I made at [[WP:NOT]] to incorporate the Bright Line Rule over there. Some folks say that is just a repeat of what's said here. Any comments appreciated. [[User:Smallbones|Smallbones]]<sub>(<font color="cc6600">[[User talk:Smallbones|smalltalk]]</font>)</sub> 02:19, 13 October 2013 (UTC) |
There's a discussion of a proposal I made at [[WP:NOT]] to incorporate the Bright Line Rule over there. Some folks say that is just a repeat of what's said here. Any comments appreciated. [[User:Smallbones|Smallbones]]<sub>(<font color="cc6600">[[User talk:Smallbones|smalltalk]]</font>)</sub> 02:19, 13 October 2013 (UTC) |
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== Promote to policy == |
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Sorry for the ignorance in this question (although I did just read the last couple of years of archives). Can we discuss promoting this guideline to a policy? Every organization I know has an COI policy that is easy to find and actionable. Let's have one. Thanks. [[User:Jytdog|Jytdog]] ([[User talk:Jytdog|talk]]) 02:14, 14 October 2013 (UTC) |
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method for IP COI and risk of outing
I have just come across editing on an organization by an editor who works for that organization, but the editing was from an IP address that has a history of editing that article. I found out about who it was by following an external link, so following up an apparent COI would seem to risk outing. It's possible the editor has a Wikipedia username that they just didn't use to edit the article in question. This raises three questions, relevant both to the case at hand and to possibly clarifying the COI guideline:
- Procedurally, do we proceed with an IP COI just as we would with a non-IP COI?
- If so, and if we should present evidence, how do we prevent outing (other than by the editor themself)?
- If the editor does have an English Wikipedia username but never used it to edit this article (someone with the same username has edited one other article on en-WP), how does that affect COI procedures, since perhaps the editor is trying to avoid being outed?
Nick Levinson (talk) 15:37, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- If there is a risk of outing, see Wikipedia:Blocking policy#Confidential evidence for help. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 17:36, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- I would not be overly concerned regarding our outing guidelines when it comes to single purpose accounts editing with a likely COI. Those guidelines were written to prevent harassment of established and good faith editors on and off-wiki, and it's an overly conservative interpretation of them, in my opinion, to assume that they bind us from publicly investigating spammers and single-purpose COI editors. A common example of this come with every COI investigation that involves an autobiography, most of which we do publicly investigate. Obviously such things should be treated with extreme care and accusations and posting of names should not be made recklessly.
- All that said, how could you have conclusively tracked an IP to a real name? It would risk libel for you to publish such a claim if you weren't absolutely sure. It would be best to just publish the links you have discovered between the IP and the COI subject matter, and leave personal names out of it, if possible. Gigs (talk) 18:06, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
I have a different take on this. Nick, COI editing is not against policy. But IMHO what you are doing is getting close to crossing the line on a very important policy. North8000 (talk) 18:08, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- It sounds like you may know more details of the situation than I do, and that very well may be the case. Gigs (talk) 21:34, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- No I don't Here's what I meant:
- The policy rightly defines a COI as "When advancing outside interests is more important to an editor than advancing the aims of Wikipedia, that editor stands in a conflict of interest." So. unless their investigation has opened up the editor's skull to see if this "more important" exists, they don't have sufficient basis for accusing of a COI.
- IMO "Investigating" an individual is a case of the the cure being worse than the disease.
- Being just a member of an organization is not even remotely close to establishing a COI. Shall we investigate whether there are any persons of that party editing the Democrat or Republican Party articles?
- Getting dangerously close to wp:outing or partial outing.
- Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:45, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- It's hard to comment on this case without knowing the sorts of edits involved. Ultimately it's the nature of the edits that justifies the investigation, not the potential COI in and of itself. As you point out, we don't go on witchhunts when there isn't problematic editing. Gigs (talk) 17:40, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry that I missed these posts earlier.
- I don't have a personal name for the person in question but I do have a username tied to the IP, but that does not eliminate that more than one person may have used the IP, which has appeared multiple times in editing the article, nor does it prove that no spoofing occurred spoiling the username linkage, thus those questions can be presented for investigation, but there is a prima facie case for a COI. If I say publicly how I linked the username to the IP, it would be very easy for anyone to out the person with what I would have said about how I know. I don't object to submitting the evidence in a way that avoids outing. There has been problematic editing. Whether a COI has infected the article's content does not require examining an editor's personal motives but, given our policies and guidelines, can be based on what is known about their motives plus what is in the article, what has been deleted from it by that IP, and what is available in an off-Wiki search for sourcing, including with respect to NPOV. The IP is not a single-purpose account and there may not be a COI for that IP at any other article; but, for this article, the user wrote that they "work for" the organization the particular article is about, thus, apparently, is not "just a member", and the organization is a small one (my guess is no more than a few hundred people), not nearly as large as the Republican party (I think the Democratic party is even larger). I'd post a notice on the IP's talk page, the article's talk page, or the article about the likely COI but for the outing risk.
- The responses by User:North8000 seem to object to any COI for an IP unless the editor is self-exposing. I don't read the COI guideline that restrictively, and it would almost certainly expose the Wikimedia Foundation to legal liability if an article is a disguised advertisement and uses someone's likeness so as to violate the law. So I assume the Foundation wants IP COIs to be prevented or repaired much as with non-IP COIs, quite apart from editorial quality issues (including NPOV).
- I therefore mainly need to know the procedural differences between IP and non-IP cases. For example, instead of posting a notice to the IP talk page, should I go first to the Checkuser procedure (which allows confidentiality) and state how, with high probability, I linked a username to the IP and then, if Checkuser produces a positive result, post about the apparent COI to the IP talk page?
- Nick Levinson (talk) 17:45, 14 September 2013 (UTC) (Deleted problematic nonnegative case: 17:51, 14 September 2013 (UTC))
- Nick, that's not what I meant. I meant that what you are implying (that merely being in the org flatly constitutes a COI) is in conflict the the definition of a COI. Sincerley, North8000 (talk) 21:18, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
- North8000, you're technically right that it doesn't but it virtually does, under the guideline. Someone who works for the organization, if paid by it and that's commonly what is meant by working for an organization at least in the U.S., is "very strongly discouraged" from much editing of Wikipedia, and that would likely include some recent editing from the IP in question on the article in question. Nick Levinson (talk) 17:12, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- Nick the link that you provided discusses getting paid for editing Wikipedia not just working for/getting paid by the organization. HUGE difference with respect to risk of COI. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:58, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- Clause 2 says "you expect to derive monetary or other benefits or considerations from editing Wikipedia (for example, by being an owner, officer, or other stakeholder of an organization; or by having some other form of close financial relationship with a topic you wish to write about)" and the next paragraph says "if you have a financial connection to a topic – including, but not limited to, as an employee, owner or other stakeholder – you are advised to refrain from editing articles directly". The notion that someone paid as a staff publicist responsible for influencing media but not specifically to edit Wikipedia who then edits Wikipedia on their employer's time should be considered as possibly violating their employer's rules on use of resources but is not in a COI relationship would be virtually unworkable regarding COI enforcement, would expose WMF to more legal risks, and, I think, runs counter to what seems to be the normal judgment among Wikipedians about who has a COI and what COI editors may do. I don't know what the editor in question means by working for the organization in question, but I think there's enough to raise the question about a specific COI. Nick Levinson (talk) 17:23, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- Nick the link that you provided discusses getting paid for editing Wikipedia not just working for/getting paid by the organization. HUGE difference with respect to risk of COI. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:58, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- North8000, you're technically right that it doesn't but it virtually does, under the guideline. Someone who works for the organization, if paid by it and that's commonly what is meant by working for an organization at least in the U.S., is "very strongly discouraged" from much editing of Wikipedia, and that would likely include some recent editing from the IP in question on the article in question. Nick Levinson (talk) 17:12, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- Nick, that's not what I meant. I meant that what you are implying (that merely being in the org flatly constitutes a COI) is in conflict the the definition of a COI. Sincerley, North8000 (talk) 21:18, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
- It's hard to comment on this case without knowing the sorts of edits involved. Ultimately it's the nature of the edits that justifies the investigation, not the potential COI in and of itself. As you point out, we don't go on witchhunts when there isn't problematic editing. Gigs (talk) 17:40, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
- No I don't Here's what I meant:
Making sure this is not a COI violation/issue
I have a personal friend who in his professional capacity has a financial interest in specific commercial publications (from a third party) but he is otherwise not an editor. He is well aware of COI issues on WP and knows that he should not edit on topics related to these publications. I have a personal interest in these publications only in that I want to buy and enjoy them and hope they do well, but otherwise have no profession or economic ties to them.
If my friend gives me a suggestion that one of these publications does not have an article, and then I proceed to research the topic on my own, finding the appropriate third party/independent sources that already exist to satisfy WP:V/WP:N for a standalone article without any other input from my friend, would this be considered a COI problem?
I really don't see this being an issue - as long as those sources exist and I'm not being fed them via my friend, it would be the same as if anyone else, unprodded, wrote the article. It's just happening sooner than later. But I do want to double check to make sure that this isn't stepping on any toes with regards to COI. --MASEM (t) 16:52, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
- The issue is this: Would your creating the article or not creating the article affect your friendship in anything but the most trivial way? In short, would he thank you if you did it and/or wonder why you didn't if you didn't? The ethically safest course of action is to prepare a userspace draft then have a neutral editor review it or submit it as an articles for creation. Be sure to declare your COI to whoever reviews it, and don't make significant edits without discussion after it becomes an article. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 22:26, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
WP:COI guideline seems contrary to the interests of WP. Make it an essay? Delete? Or can you defend it?
After seeing it referenced at WP:AN, I just read WP:COI for the first time, and I don't get it at all.
All edits are made by humans biased by something or another. COI is a potential source of bias, sure, but how is it different from the bias of a biologist editing a controversial topic in biology, a lawyer editing a controversial legal topic, or a runner editing about a controversial running issue, or any other bias? In all these situations, what matters is that the resulting content is compliant with NPOV, notability, etc., not WHO is making the edit, or WHY they are making the edit, or what biases may or may not be influencing them. What's so special about a COI bias that it deserves this kind of attention and scrutiny?
I'm considering proposing demoting this "guideline" to an essay, or maybe nominating it for deletion, but would like to first give others a chance to defend it. --B2C 21:51, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
- The difference between COI and simple bias is that the COI bias is caused by an external relationship, not by something internal to the editor.
- So if you're editing in the interests of strawberry muffins because you believe they're nutritious and delicious, it's possible that you'll be persuaded to change your mind, or soften your views, or take other views into account. But if you're here because you're being paid by a manufacturer of strawberry muffins, you're not allowed to change your mind if you want to keep that job. Or, more accurately, if you do change your mind, you're not allowed to reflect that in your edits.
- It means that someone external to Wikipedia – an invisible hand – is in control of your edits, and therefore of Wikipedia's content. That's what's objectionable about COI editing, just as COI is objectionable in every other area of life. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:07, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
- I think it should remain a guideline. In the examples you gave, if the biologist's career or reputation would be affected by the issue he is writing about, that's a conflict of interest under this guideline. The same goes with a lawyer writing about a topic in which he has a current case or which he reasonably expects to have cases on in the future or when his writing about it would otherwise impact his professional life. If the runner were writing about something that affected his running career, such as an article about a fellow runner he knew personally or about an official race sanctioning body in which he was a member or in whose races he ran, that would also be a conflict of interest. On the other hand, a biologist, lawyer, or runner contributing their expertise in areas that aren't closely tied to their profession, such as a runner creating articles about races or runners from before he was born, is likely not a conflict of interest under these guidelines even though, as you suggest, bias may be present. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 22:08, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
- If COI conflicts with another guideline I would favour altering the other guideline. Who makes the edits matters, that's why we block editors. COI editors have an inherent difficult in editing neutrally, even when they think they are editing neutrally. The distinction between paid and unpaid COI is largely irrelevant. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:18, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
- We block editors who demonstrate repeatedly problematic behavior when other attempts to rectify don't work. Yes, in that case who makes the edit matters, but that's an exception for very good demonstrable reason. Prohibiting editors with a COI from editing is not that. --B2C 23:26, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) At first blush I thought this was a shocking suggestion. But I am not sure. If it were eliminated entirely, it would remove any doubt that about Wikipedia's utter absence of integrity and independence. A disclaimer could be put at the top of every article, warning readers that Wikipedia makes no claims about the completeness, accuracy or objectivity of the article, and that the subject of the article, or its/his/her paid representatives, may have created, instigated or shaped the development of the article. That's an honest approach, and it most closely approximates the reality of Wikipedia. Coretheapple (talk) 22:20, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
- Every page has Disclaimers at the bottom. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 22:29, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
- Most readers, myself included, have never noticed that. I'm talking about a visible disclaimer, one that every reader can see, prominently displayed. Coretheapple (talk) 22:31, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
- Every page has Disclaimers at the bottom. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 22:29, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
- WP:COI is a legal protecton against the Wikimedia Foundation getting successfully sued if an article turns out to be a disguised advertisement posted by some editor and someone's likeness was commercially used without the latter person's consent. Such a lawsuit has happened regarding another publisher. I don't think COI applies merely to a member of a profession; e.g., a lawyer working as one can write about law, but not about the firm that employs that lawyer. Nick Levinson (talk) 22:40, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
- What I said about the hypothetical lawyer was approximate relative to WP:COI. I should have said that then. Nick Levinson (talk) 18:41, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- Our policies are not fig leaves for WMF. If they need legal protection, they can say so transparently and set up whatever rules they need. This is not our job. Jehochman Talk 00:39, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, it is our job to include legal protection. Everyone needs legal protection; the Foundation doesn't have to say so. Policies and guidelines are part of that protection, even while they fulfill other functions. Nick Levinson (talk) 18:41, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- After having worked on this guideline for a number of year, spending time at WP:COIN long ago, and then thinking about it for half a decade since, I find this guideline to be problematic. I think it causes more problems than it solves. We should simply enforce our content policies without reference to the user's real life identity. Our content policies, especially WP:NPOV, are relevant to cases of problematic COI editing. As for non-problematic COI editing (e.g. a company corrects trivial errors on their Wikipedia page, such as spelling and grammar because that might make them look bad), if editing is no problematic, why should we care? Jehochman Talk 00:39, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- Noncontroversial editing is sometimes allowed now by WP:COI where the COI is nonpaid. In paid cases, good arguments lie both ways, one because institutions often need to lean over backwards to avoid coming so close to the line between good and bad that people cross over. Nick Levinson (talk) 18:41, 13 October 2013 (UTC) (Indented & releveled as list item: 18:53, 13 October 2013 (UTC))
- You would presumably agree that a judge should recuse if her husband is the defendant, or that a journalist should avoid praising a business if he owns part of it. The same principle applies here. We can't judge whether articles are neutral a lot of the time, because it requires background knowledge. We therefore ask that editors have no COI so that they're approaching the issues honestly, rather than under pressure from an external source.
That editors have internal biases is unavoidable, but we can at least ask that they have no external relationships that control or undermine their relationship with Wikipedia. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:48, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- You would presumably agree that a judge should recuse if her husband is the defendant, or that a journalist should avoid praising a business if he owns part of it. The same principle applies here. We can't judge whether articles are neutral a lot of the time, because it requires background knowledge. We therefore ask that editors have no COI so that they're approaching the issues honestly, rather than under pressure from an external source.
- The problem is that Wikipedia editors are anonymous. There's no way to know who anybody is, unless that person declares their identity. We don't allow anonymous people to be judges or journalists. I think it is a lot simpler to evalate the edits without regard to the editor's identity. If the edits are good, we accept them. If they are bad, we don't. The COI guideline is good when it warns COI editors what problems they face and how to avoid them. The COI guideline is bad when other editors wield it as a club. Jehochman Talk 00:55, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- For all but the simplest of articles there's no way to judge whether an article accurately reflects the majority and significant-minority views reported in the secondary literature, unless you're willing to spend weeks educating yourself. Most of the time we have to trust, despite the anonymity, which is why the idea of AGF is so important on Wikipedia. But it's impossible to extend trust when an editor is employed by the company he's writing WP articles on behalf of. It's a very simple bright line. If you could reasonably be said to have a COI, edit something else instead, please, or stick to the talk page. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:12, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- Do you support the animal rights movement? Do you recuse from editing any articles on topics that are important to you? I think editors who are employed as PR professionals need to disclose their involvement. Once involvement is disclosed, editors can scrutinize the contributions to make sure they are good. The question to ask is whether PR professionals can make our articles better. In many cases, the answer is yes. Jehochman Talk 01:18, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- Having opinions about something doesn't in itself give rise to a conflict of interest. A COI is created by external relationships: being employed by someone, having an involved family member, volunteering for a campaign, etc. The point you make about scrutiny ignores the point I made above, namely that a lot of the time it's impossible to judge whether the edits are neutral and accurate, because the issue is so complex. We had that problem exactly at BP. There was a BP person suggesting text and sources, and you had to be really knowledgeable about the issues to spot when things were being minimized or omitted. It can take months or even years for the average Wikipedian to get up to speed, so the "scrutiny" argument just doesn't scale. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:27, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- I don't get this either. Either the content in question is verifiable to reliable source or it isn't. --B2C 01:32, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- If you think it's that simple, by all means go to Chevron, BP, or any of the big oil or pharmaceutical companies (and their products), then come back here – after you've read all the sources and the sources people have omitted – and let us know whether the articles are accurate and neutral. I'll see you in a couple of years' time. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:39, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- I'm with SlimVirgin on this issue. Born2cycle appears to have no experience working with contentious corporate articles in which the corporation has a strong on-wiki presence. It is a nightmare for NPOV, I can tell you. Many times I have brought verifiable and reliable sources to the BP article and had the material removed. I say keep the COI page as strong as possible. Binksternet (talk) 02:04, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- Somebody who works for BP can't touch the article, even if fully disclosed, to correct an error such as a wrong title associated with a corporate officer, or a wrong name associated with a corporate office. However, an activist who hates BP can do whatever they like to the article. That seems...asymmetrical. Jehochman Talk 02:07, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- A paid opponent is just as restricted in editing as a paid advocate. Nick Levinson (talk) 18:41, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- The asymmetry is that a corporation can hire a team of editors who can argue forever. Violations of NPOV take lots of time to confirm, behavioral guidelines are loosely enforced, sock-puppetry is difficult to uncover. It all takes time, and a volunteer editor often cannot stand up to the hordes of paid editors employed. That's asymmetry. Smallbones(smalltalk) 02:17, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- That would be a stupid thing for them to do because when outed, they would get written up in mainstream media and take a huge PR hit. I constantly advise clients not to do that, and think that all smart PR professionals would dispense similar advice. Whenever I'm hired as an expert witness one piece of the assignment is usually to look at whether the opposing party has been doing anything dirty. Big companies are constantly involved in lawsuits, and constantly have adversaries looking to find any dirty activities. Hiring shills to turn their Wikipedia pages into advertising or fluff would be extremely stupid. This is something done primarily by small companies or the unsophisticated. Jehochman Talk 02:21, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- Yelp Inc., a highly controversial company forever being dragged into all manner of litigation, has a paid editor working actively on the article. I am not aware of any articles being written about it. BP and Chevron's paid editors were the subject of publicity and those editors continued their good work for the company, undeterred. Coretheapple (talk) 02:49, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- I didn't see a declaration for a Yelp, Inc., COI on the article or the talk page, unless it's suggested/mentioned in a talk topic/section, which isn't prominent enough, assuming there should be a declaration. Could someone please rectify the absence or counter the claim? Nick Levinson (talk) 18:41, 13 October 2013 (UTC) (Reworded: 18:53, 13 October 2013 (UTC))
- You have to go to an archive page to find the COI disclosure by one of the most active editors involved in this article. Coretheapple (talk) 19:40, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
All of the above discussion is depressing; bordering on disturbing. What I'm hearing is a lot of experienced and respected editors essentially saying WP policies on notability and verifiability, etc. are a failure. What I have always loved about WP is that on any controversial issue the coverage would be reasonably fair because editors from each side would be involved to keep the other side honest. It seemed to me that as long as you had some people from each side involved, and it didn't even have to be close to balanced, all of the biased POV material would be kept out, and the result would be solid/balanced coverage. It's a brilliant system. I still see that. I still believe that. If some on one side are paid does not change this one iota. To believe it does, to argue it does, is to argue that the underlying system on WP is a failure. I don't buy it. I don't see it. This campaign against COI editing undermines the pillars upon which WP sits. It sanctions going after WHO and WHY instead of WHAT. It's a horrible idea which goes against WP interests. It needs to go. --B2C 05:16, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- The real issue is that we are allowing paid advocates and that the COI policy does not have enough teeth to effectively deal with them. We do not want the pharmaceutical industry writing about themselves and their products. They already write much of the literature (through ghost writers with MDs names applied after the fact), they hide evidence that is not to their commercial advantage, they are the top advertiser on TV, they fund the committees that draft up guidelines, there is more than one lobbyist per member in Washington acting on their behalf, NO they do not get to write Wikipedia too. Wikipedia is respected because we are different. Because we are independent. This suggestion would irreparablely harm the project. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 05:27, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- I agree, but I think that you'd have to admit that this incredibly depressing conversation indicates that the so-called "community" is utterly clueless on the subject of COI, hasn't the foggiest idea why it's important, and has its collective head buried so far up its collective rear that the situation is going to only get worse. That's why I'm coming around to the view that perhaps all vestiges of COI restraints should go, Wikipedia should surrender to the p.r. people, as long as a clear disclaimer is written at the top of each article indicating that the content may be compromised by COI. Coretheapple (talk) 05:41, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- No! Our policies and guidelines about content keep THE CONTENT from being compromised by all kinds of bias, including COI bias. If the policies don't protect the content from COI bias, they don't protect from other biases either. That's simply not the case. --B2C 06:06, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- The problem I've found is that having one person on one side being a paid editor does unbalance things, so that established policies don't always have a chance to work. In particular, I feel that paid editors (n general) are far more willing to act against other policies to get the requested change through. I've seen false representation, vote stacking, false references, (including reviews paid for in order to provide reliable sources), socks, meat puppetry, and at one stage, I saw what looked like someone being hired to take on the role of a mediator in dispute resolution. Money changes the equation, perhaps because people are more willing to compromise on other aspects when there is a decent reward sitting behind them. I agree with DocJames that we need teeth - personally, I'd be happy just to see a requirement that editors with a financial COI must declare their COI before they edit an article, even if we don't stop them from editing completely (which won't happen anyway), and have sanctions that we can use if problems arise. I feel that paid editing is going the be a given on WP - what I'd like is to make editing within policy more effective than editing outside of it, and for that we need clear rules and an ability to act against those who go against them. - Bilby (talk) 06:39, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- I hear you. But it just seems to me that the magnitude of the COI problem is greatly exaggerated, and measures taken to combat it are largely ineffective and cost more harm to WP than the COI problem itself. It's like the war on drugs. Some wars are just not worth fighting. I have faith in our CONTENT polices and guidelines that they will keep problems caused by COI editors in check. Will there be problems? Of course. Will they be dealt without special COI rules? Yes. --B2C 14:01, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- I think we have a tendency to underrate the size of the problem, because we base it on what we see, while we overrate the ability of existing policies to cope. NPOV and other policies are great when faced with articles watched by enough (or just the right) people, but fall down where the editors have different levels of experience and resources, or where the articles fall under the radar. Just to clarify, though - I don't feel that we should ban editors with a COI from making changes. I do feel we should follow the sorts of established practices in other areas, such as journalism, by requiring editors to disclose any financial conflict of interest if they wish to work on an article where that applies. - Bilby (talk) 22:11, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- WP:COI is a behavioral guideline about editing. Its purpose along with multiple other WP policies and guidelines is to create and maintain a neutral encyclopedia. If someone is editing non-neutrally it should be apparent in their edits. If it is not, then they are functioning as a productive contributor to the project and should be supported. Everyone has bias and editors are naturally drawn to subjects and topics that they are interested in, that they have opinions about based on their education, lifestyle, training, occupation, life experiences, religion, moral values etc. Some have very strong opinions and clear agendas like this skeptic group which recruits and trains like minded people to edit WP.[1] Creating a police state on WP where we investigate, or worse deduce, someone's occupation or income source or belief level, based on anything other then the same editing standards as others, only serves to calcify a specific, limited POV and create an insiders only project. WP works through collaboration and diversity (the wisdom of crowds). Any attempts to set up more rules with bigger "teeth" will only serve to bite WP in its arse and limit its diversity and progress. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:02, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- Some journalism publishers have much more stringent restrictions on journalists than Wikipedia has, and the ones I regularly see do good journalism. Nick Levinson (talk) 18:41, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- Keithbob's "police state" concerns are unwarranted as all of the most problematic COI situations that I'm aware of involve editors who have declared themselves to be paid editors, so the COI is not in doubt. Nick's points are correct, and I would add that Wikipedia is unique in its lack of integrity, for not disclosing the COIs of article contributors, even when open and declared, to readers. Coretheapple (talk) 18:46, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- It also appears to be a "slippery slope argument" which makes no sense because financial conflict of interest is a well known, widely observed concept, limiting the issue. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:25, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- Some journalism publishers have much more stringent restrictions on journalists than Wikipedia has, and the ones I regularly see do good journalism. Nick Levinson (talk) 18:41, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- I hear you. But it just seems to me that the magnitude of the COI problem is greatly exaggerated, and measures taken to combat it are largely ineffective and cost more harm to WP than the COI problem itself. It's like the war on drugs. Some wars are just not worth fighting. I have faith in our CONTENT polices and guidelines that they will keep problems caused by COI editors in check. Will there be problems? Of course. Will they be dealt without special COI rules? Yes. --B2C 14:01, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- The problem I've found is that having one person on one side being a paid editor does unbalance things, so that established policies don't always have a chance to work. In particular, I feel that paid editors (n general) are far more willing to act against other policies to get the requested change through. I've seen false representation, vote stacking, false references, (including reviews paid for in order to provide reliable sources), socks, meat puppetry, and at one stage, I saw what looked like someone being hired to take on the role of a mediator in dispute resolution. Money changes the equation, perhaps because people are more willing to compromise on other aspects when there is a decent reward sitting behind them. I agree with DocJames that we need teeth - personally, I'd be happy just to see a requirement that editors with a financial COI must declare their COI before they edit an article, even if we don't stop them from editing completely (which won't happen anyway), and have sanctions that we can use if problems arise. I feel that paid editing is going the be a given on WP - what I'd like is to make editing within policy more effective than editing outside of it, and for that we need clear rules and an ability to act against those who go against them. - Bilby (talk) 06:39, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- No! Our policies and guidelines about content keep THE CONTENT from being compromised by all kinds of bias, including COI bias. If the policies don't protect the content from COI bias, they don't protect from other biases either. That's simply not the case. --B2C 06:06, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- I agree, but I think that you'd have to admit that this incredibly depressing conversation indicates that the so-called "community" is utterly clueless on the subject of COI, hasn't the foggiest idea why it's important, and has its collective head buried so far up its collective rear that the situation is going to only get worse. That's why I'm coming around to the view that perhaps all vestiges of COI restraints should go, Wikipedia should surrender to the p.r. people, as long as a clear disclaimer is written at the top of each article indicating that the content may be compromised by COI. Coretheapple (talk) 05:41, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- The real issue is that we are allowing paid advocates and that the COI policy does not have enough teeth to effectively deal with them. We do not want the pharmaceutical industry writing about themselves and their products. They already write much of the literature (through ghost writers with MDs names applied after the fact), they hide evidence that is not to their commercial advantage, they are the top advertiser on TV, they fund the committees that draft up guidelines, there is more than one lobbyist per member in Washington acting on their behalf, NO they do not get to write Wikipedia too. Wikipedia is respected because we are different. Because we are independent. This suggestion would irreparablely harm the project. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 05:27, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
As I argued here we should make changes to some of our core policies. If medical science isn't as reliable as the other hard sciences, then our core polcies shouldn't assume that it is. Doing so mkaes Wikipedia vulnerable to COI editing, but enforcing the COI policy is itself problematic. Therefore it's better to deal with the source of the problem. Count Iblis (talk) 19:48, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
Something that should be changed for such a discussion
- Proposal: "Any User who participates in discussing changes to WP:COI or any conflict of interest policy or guideline, if the User has been compensated for participating anywhere on Wikipedia, must disclose that the User is or has been so compensated."
- Reason: Seems needed otherwise you would have Users who are paid to skew the discussion. Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:19, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
Discuss
- Probably agree. Sounds reasonable, although I'd tighten the wording a bit, especially about "rule" and in "that are". Nick Levinson (talk) 18:41, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- Done. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:14, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- Agree. It is reasonable and intelligent, and any place but Wikipedia would go almost without saying. This being Wikipedia, which is totally lacking in integrity on such matters, I do not expect this to be adopted. Coretheapple (talk) 18:47, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- I would support this change. Right now, I brought an issue to AN about someone actively refusing to do that, and it's turned into a big blowup. The editor we have here from the company thought it was essentially optional to do so. This would, in the end, help these companies know what our expectations are when they come here, and for that, the clearer the better. It would also give us something crystal clear to point to and say "If you are COI, you must disclose." Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:02, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- Agree - this is just such common sense that it is implicit in every discussion of COI. Otherwise Wikipedia policy and guidelines could simply be brought by the highest bidder. It's probably already covered in our rules about meatpuppets but it bears repeating in this context. Smallbones(smalltalk) 20:51, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- Disagree - I couldn't care less about the reasons anyone has for presenting whatever argument they are presenting, including whether those reasons are to earn some money. I hardly pay attention to who is saying what, much less why they are saying it. What I care about about is what they are saying, and how well founded in policy, guidelines and accepted practices are the arguments. WP would be much better off if there was more emphasis on WHAT and much less on WHO and WHY. --B2C 21:29, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- We're talking about creating and changing policy, accepted practice is to reject COI. See, "putting the fox in charge of the hen house." Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:14, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- No to thoughtcrime. People can express whatever opinion they like. Wikipedia allows anonymous editing. Each idea can be evaluated on its merits. Jehochman Talk 21:48, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- Thoughtcrime? We're talking about conflict of interest disclosure not thought crime. The idea is not to be overwhelmed with paid accounts that throw out any reason to disrupt or create a consensus because they are gain financially by doing so. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:14, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- Has that been happening routinely? I think we've been overwhelmed by other problems of greater magnitude than this. We should not be punishing any editor for expressing a wiki-political view. Blocks and bans should never be political. Jehochman Talk 01:56, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- What block or ban? The proposal is for disclosure. That has nothing to do with politics, and why are you changing the subject? Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:02, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- Has that been happening routinely? I think we've been overwhelmed by other problems of greater magnitude than this. We should not be punishing any editor for expressing a wiki-political view. Blocks and bans should never be political. Jehochman Talk 01:56, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
- Thoughtcrime? We're talking about conflict of interest disclosure not thought crime. The idea is not to be overwhelmed with paid accounts that throw out any reason to disrupt or create a consensus because they are gain financially by doing so. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:14, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
Discussion at WT:NOT
There's a discussion of a proposal I made at WP:NOT to incorporate the Bright Line Rule over there. Some folks say that is just a repeat of what's said here. Any comments appreciated. Smallbones(smalltalk) 02:19, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
Promote to policy
Sorry for the ignorance in this question (although I did just read the last couple of years of archives). Can we discuss promoting this guideline to a policy? Every organization I know has an COI policy that is easy to find and actionable. Let's have one. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 02:14, 14 October 2013 (UTC)