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: Mauro Lanari. --[[Special:Contributions/95.246.66.47|95.246.66.47]] ([[User talk:95.246.66.47|talk]]) 09:00, 10 September 2013 (UTC) |
: Mauro Lanari. --[[Special:Contributions/95.246.66.47|95.246.66.47]] ([[User talk:95.246.66.47|talk]]) 09:00, 10 September 2013 (UTC) |
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::You rightly say that it is the modern Jewish source, not ancient Judaism, that attributes to Isaiah a borrowing of his idea from a legend about the morning star. Gunkel is another modern source in comparison to pre-Enochic Judaism, although page xxi of the introduction to the cited translation of his work says he is already out of date in seeing as of Babylonian origin what later scholars see as Canaanite. The fall of the morning star recounted in the legend is, of course, not an actual "astronomical phenomenon". We must also take account of the doubt cast by the cited Eerdmans Commentary on this view of the origin of the image Isaiah used, but I think we can say that it is the generally accepted view. [[User:Esoglou|Esoglou]] ([[User talk:Esoglou|talk]]) 09:06, 10 September 2013 (UTC) |
::You rightly say that it is the modern Jewish source, not ancient Judaism, that attributes to Isaiah a borrowing of his idea from a legend about the morning star. Gunkel is another modern source in comparison to pre-Enochic Judaism, although page xxi of the introduction to the cited translation of his work says he is already out of date in seeing as of Babylonian origin what later scholars see as Canaanite. The fall of the morning star recounted in the legend is, of course, not an actual "astronomical phenomenon". We must also take account of the doubt cast by the cited Eerdmans Commentary on this view of the origin of the image Isaiah used, but I think we can say that it is the generally accepted view. [[User:Esoglou|Esoglou]] ([[User talk:Esoglou|talk]]) 09:06, 10 September 2013 (UTC) |
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:::I think that this latest version of the article is the one far less POV, giving comparable space and visibility to the two opposite exegetical perspectives. |
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::: Mauro Lanari. --[[Special:Contributions/95.246.66.47|95.246.66.47]] ([[User talk:95.246.66.47|talk]]) 11:16, 10 September 2013 (UTC) |
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Jonathan Black, etc.
I have undone the insertion into the lead of the ideas that Jonathan Black presented in his The Secret History of the World: As Laid Down by the Secret Societies, which another editor seemingly believes to be a reliable source worthy of mention in the lead of the article rather than under "Occultism". Black's idea of the identification of the snake of Genesis 2 with a being called Lucifer followed Christian tradition. The insertion presents it as preceding Christian tradition: "Before the rise of Christianity". Not even Black says this. The insertion, placed immediately before "Christian tradition influenced by this presentation came to use the Latin word for 'morning star', lucifer, as a proper name ('Lucifer') for Satan as Satan was before his fall", made nonsense of that statement. The presentation that influenced Christian tradition was of course not Black's: it was pre-Christian "interpreting Isaiah 14:12-15, with its reference to the morning star, as applicable to Satan, and presenting him as a fallen angel cast out of heaven", as the article says. Esoglou (talk) 07:45, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- You didn't indicate the page on which Billy Graham supposedly said that the serpent of Genesis 2 was "Satan as Satan was before his fall", surely a strange idea. And you again put in the strained idea, irrelevant for this article, that the forbidden fruit of Eden was an apple and that the association of that supposed apple with the serpent and so with Satan and so with Lucifer and so with Venus the planet (quite a lengthily roundabout association!) had a parallel in the association of the Apple of Discord with Venus the goddess of sexual love (as well as with the goddesses Juno and Minerva). Esoglou (talk) 15:56, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- 1) In the quote I linked the "page" (the digitized version of the text on Google Books is without indications of page) where for Graham Lucifer is the serpent according to a biblical foundation, and the serpent of Genesis is before its fall (prelapsarian status). The whole Christian tradition agrees on this fact, but there is not any mention in the article.
- 2) I consider of the utmost importance in the article the lack of any further exegesis according to a Gnostic and syncretistic mythology, not necessarily occultist.
- 3) Excuse me for a moment: what do you mean with "fall of Lucifer"? I think you do not mean fall from Eden (Gen. 3:14: "So the Lord God said to the serpent: 'Because you have done this, / You are cursed more than all cattle'"), but fall from the angelic choirs as in Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite's De Coelesti Hierarchia. Thus the main problem seems to be this misconception. Is the article clear enough on this point?
- Mauro Lanari. --79.3.37.91 (talk) 23:31, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- 1) Thank you for your explanation. I clicked on your citation of the book, which only brought me to its cover. It would have been less confusing if the link there brought the reader to the page that you were citing.
- 2) I don't understand this. Do you mean that you think it extremely important that the article should lack more "exegesis according to a Gnostic and syncretistic mythology, not necessarily occultist"? Or do you mean (as I suppose is more likely) that you think it extremely important that the article should not lack more information on Gnostic and syncretistic mythology? In this latter case, start a section on Gnostic and syncretistic mythology that can then be summarized in the lead. That's what the lead is for.
- 3) Of course I don't think that the serpent-in-Eden story is presented as happening before the fall-of-Lucifer story. It was your edit that said that Satan, as he was before his fall, was the serpent of Genesis 3: "Christian tradition ... came to use the Latin word for "morning star", lucifer, as a proper name ("Lucifer") for Satan as Satan was before his fall: the serpent that Genesis chapter 3, while describing the story of "The Temptation and Fall of Man," in verse 3:13 calls 'the tempter'." Esoglou (talk) 08:17, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- 1) The tmp {{cite book}} allows the distinction between the URL of the book and the quote: I've used it. Anyway, no problem.
- 2) I meant: "I consider a problem of the utmost importance/relevance/seriousness in the article the lack of any further exegesis according to a Gnostic and syncretistic mythology." Yes, someone should start a section on this topic, but for which I do not judge myself an expert. So I simply added a postscript to a note of the lead, without editing it directly. I did not think it was a such (important/significant/severe) damage.
- 3) On this point it seems that I have problems with an understandable editing. Why then do you not fix it, now that we've clarified? Thanks, really.
- Mauro Lanari. --79.3.37.91 (talk) 10:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but the only way I see of "fixing it" is to remove from the lead the complicated insertion that I would have difficulty in formulating even as a section of the article. There would be a strong smell of Wikipedia-excluded synthesis from any presentation of the idea that, because strands of Christian tradition identify the serpent of Genesis 2 with Satan, and because strands of Christian and Jewish tradition identify Satan with Lucifer, and because strands of Jewish and Christian tradition think that Satan/Lucifer is referred to in Isaiah 14:12, and because most scholars (those, that is, who do not think Satan/Lucifer is referred to in Isaiah 14:12 - surely a gaping break in the chain of evidence!) think the word הֵילֵל, which is supposedly applied to Satan/Lucifer in that passage, means the morning star, you can therefore associate the Genesis 2 serpent with the planet Venus. Esoglou (talk) 14:18, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- It would already be a big step forward insert at least the simple concept: "strands of Christian tradition identifies Lucifer with the serpent cursed in Genesis (2-3)." That is, for example, what Billy Graham states and writes. And not only him, of course: see [1] or [2].
- Mauro Lanari. --79.53.68.216 (talk) 17:21, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- The sources you mention do not identify the serpent or Lucifer with the planet Venus, nor do they provide grounds for non-synthetic linking the serpent and/or Lucifer with the Apple of Discord. You can't follow up what they say with: "As a result, 'Lucifer has become a by-word for Satan in the Church and in popular literature'". Instead, they are examples of how by their time Lucifer had already become a by-word for Satan. Try putting it elsewhere in the article. Esoglou (talk) 19:56, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- I sensed that there was again a misunderstanding. What you say is related to the second point, and I've already answered: "Yes, someone should start a section on [Gnostic and syncretistic mythology], but for which i do not judge myself an expert." Instead what I asked you "to fix" is exactly this third point: could you help me in deciding where and how putting in the article these additional informations ("strands of Christian tradition identifies Lucifer with the serpent cursed in Genesis 2-3")? Thanks again.
- Mauro Lanari. --79.23.69.162 (talk) 22:55, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- The sources you mention do not identify the serpent or Lucifer with the planet Venus, nor do they provide grounds for non-synthetic linking the serpent and/or Lucifer with the Apple of Discord. You can't follow up what they say with: "As a result, 'Lucifer has become a by-word for Satan in the Church and in popular literature'". Instead, they are examples of how by their time Lucifer had already become a by-word for Satan. Try putting it elsewhere in the article. Esoglou (talk) 19:56, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but the only way I see of "fixing it" is to remove from the lead the complicated insertion that I would have difficulty in formulating even as a section of the article. There would be a strong smell of Wikipedia-excluded synthesis from any presentation of the idea that, because strands of Christian tradition identify the serpent of Genesis 2 with Satan, and because strands of Christian and Jewish tradition identify Satan with Lucifer, and because strands of Jewish and Christian tradition think that Satan/Lucifer is referred to in Isaiah 14:12, and because most scholars (those, that is, who do not think Satan/Lucifer is referred to in Isaiah 14:12 - surely a gaping break in the chain of evidence!) think the word הֵילֵל, which is supposedly applied to Satan/Lucifer in that passage, means the morning star, you can therefore associate the Genesis 2 serpent with the planet Venus. Esoglou (talk) 14:18, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Lucifer and King James version?
This opening of the article is a completely distorted definition of Lucifer:
- "Lucifer (/ˈluːsɪfər/ or /ˈljuːsɪfər/) is the King James Version rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל in Isaiah 14:12."
Lucifer has nothing to do with the King James version, and has everything to do with the Latin Vulgate version. Roman Catholics used the Latin Vulgate translation of Lucifer for 1500 years before King James every came along, and Roman Catholic translations into any other language (not just the King James version) are still going to have "Lucifer".Jimhoward72 (talk) 00:55, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
- Because the article lacks a section on the process of personification of heōsphoros in Heosphoros, of phōsphoros in Phosphorus, and of lucifer in Lucifer, which occurred already in the pre-Christian Greek and Roman mythology. "Lucifer, as a personification, is called a son of Astræus and Aurora or Eos, of Cephalus and Aurora, or of Atlas. By Philonis he is said to have been the father of Ceyx. He is also called the father of Daedalion and of the Hesperides." (A New Classical Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, p. 449). See also Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia Of Literature, p. 544.
- Mauro Lanari. --80.181.182.61 (talk) 06:35, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
- To Jimhoward: In Isaiah, the Vulgate did not speak of Lucifer (the Devil or Satan). It spoke, not of the Devil/Satan, but of the morning star. Catholic translations into English are certainly not "still going to have 'Lucifer'". They don't. Nor do other translations into English. They translate the word more accurately.
Demonizing the son of Aurora
- To Mauro Lanari: To make Wikipedia say the ancient Roman personification of the morning star explains the use of the name Lucifer for the Devil, you must find a reliable source that says so. (Greek mythology did not use the Latin word "lucifer".) Esoglou (talk) 07:27, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
- If the Roman mythology is basically a Latin translation of the Greek myths, and if Heosphoros/Phosphoros has been translated into Lucifer, he pre-existed to Christianity as divinities in Roman religion/mythology. Then if Christians have demonized him and why, it is a next step, but I do not think that this whole process should be excluded from the article.
- Mauro Lanari. --80.181.182.61 (talk) 07:56, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
- That argument of yours is as clear an example of forbidden WP:SYNTH as can be imagined. The only place where the Vulgate used lucifer to translate a Greek word is 2 Peter 1:19 ("et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris"), where it renders φωσφόρος, and you surely don't imagine that there either lucifer or φωσφόρος was ever taken to be a reference to Greek or Latin mythology. Of the other four instances of the Vulgate's use of the word (all as translations from Hebrew, not Greek), only in Isaiah 14:12 does it mean "morning star". In the other three uses it means "the light of the morning" (Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the dawn" (Psalm 109(110):3). Only a statement of what a reliable source says "clearly and directly" (WP:V) can be put in Wikipedia, not a statement that an editor attributes to a source that he uses only as an element in an original-research argument or synthesis.
- Matthias Albani says: "The Vulgate translates the Hebrew Helel as Lucifer who in Roman mythology is the son of Aurora." He does not say what you have put in the article with this edit, that "the Christian tradition has demonized [Lucifer] who in Roman mythology was the son of Aurora". This too is synthesis of yours to link Christian tradition with the mythological Lucifer son of Aurora. What Albani says is that "this account", meaning the interpretation in the Life of Adam and Eve of the fall of Helel as the fall of Satan and his angels (of which no trace is of course to be found in Roman mythology!), became widespread in Christian theology. Quite a different thing from what you are attributing to him. Esoglou (talk) 15:00, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
- To Mauro Lanari: To make Wikipedia say the ancient Roman personification of the morning star explains the use of the name Lucifer for the Devil, you must find a reliable source that says so. (Greek mythology did not use the Latin word "lucifer".) Esoglou (talk) 07:27, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Attributing to (pre-Enochic) Judaism modern interpretations of Is 14:12
I have had to remove the unsourced claim that "Judaism interpreted Isaiah 14:12-15, with its reference to the morning star, as an astronomical phenomenon which gave rise to a myth ..." The cited source says (as its own opinion) that Isaiah borrowed his account of pride followed by a fall from a popular legend, and it approves Gunkel's idea about the astronomical origin of the legend. It does not say that Judaism had that idea. The information in the source belongs to the "Mythology behind Isaiah 14:12" section, where it is already referenced. Esoglou (talk) 20:06, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- Even worse: in fact, the reliable source attributes the idea to Isaiah himself and not to Gunkel, who simply agrees with this idea ("is undoubtedly correct [when he holds] that it represents a Babylonian or Hebrew star-myth"). Your "modern interpretation" is an exegesis of 1895, fully accepted by the Jewish Encyclopedia, of a Hebrew or even more ancient idea and/or myth. This exegesis, available in an English translation of 2006, as every exegesis can not be evaluated on the basis of its modernity or antiquity, but of its correctness or wrongness. I gave you this explanation of astronomical origin already months ago, the only one that provides a justification for the demonization of Venus and of the king of Babylon, and from which emerge the features of deception and fall subsequently attributed to Satan and/or Lucifer, but did not find sources in English. I had them only in my idiom and on paper books, while not now. If you want to, expand the concept in a subsection, but this concept is so important that it must already be present in the lead.
- Mauro Lanari. --95.246.66.47 (talk) 09:00, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- You rightly say that it is the modern Jewish source, not ancient Judaism, that attributes to Isaiah a borrowing of his idea from a legend about the morning star. Gunkel is another modern source in comparison to pre-Enochic Judaism, although page xxi of the introduction to the cited translation of his work says he is already out of date in seeing as of Babylonian origin what later scholars see as Canaanite. The fall of the morning star recounted in the legend is, of course, not an actual "astronomical phenomenon". We must also take account of the doubt cast by the cited Eerdmans Commentary on this view of the origin of the image Isaiah used, but I think we can say that it is the generally accepted view. Esoglou (talk) 09:06, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- I think that this latest version of the article is the one far less POV, giving comparable space and visibility to the two opposite exegetical perspectives.
- Mauro Lanari. --95.246.66.47 (talk) 11:16, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- You rightly say that it is the modern Jewish source, not ancient Judaism, that attributes to Isaiah a borrowing of his idea from a legend about the morning star. Gunkel is another modern source in comparison to pre-Enochic Judaism, although page xxi of the introduction to the cited translation of his work says he is already out of date in seeing as of Babylonian origin what later scholars see as Canaanite. The fall of the morning star recounted in the legend is, of course, not an actual "astronomical phenomenon". We must also take account of the doubt cast by the cited Eerdmans Commentary on this view of the origin of the image Isaiah used, but I think we can say that it is the generally accepted view. Esoglou (talk) 09:06, 10 September 2013 (UTC)