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::Oh, and the nature of the second warning (red triangles and such) was because the editor making the edits had already received a level 3 warning for vandalism ''from a human editor'' in between. --[[User:Demiurge1000|Demiurge1000]] ([[User_talk:Demiurge1000|talk]]) 21:52, 22 May 2013 (UTC) |
::Oh, and the nature of the second warning (red triangles and such) was because the editor making the edits had already received a level 3 warning for vandalism ''from a human editor'' in between. --[[User:Demiurge1000|Demiurge1000]] ([[User_talk:Demiurge1000|talk]]) 21:52, 22 May 2013 (UTC) |
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:::Let's be very clear about that; I did ''not'' receive a level 3 warning from a human editor. [[User:Eric Corbett| <span style="font-variant:small-caps;font-weight:900; color:green;">Eric</span>]] [[User talk:Eric Corbett|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;font-weight:500;color: green;">Corbett</span>]] 21:55, 22 May 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 21:55, 22 May 2013
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Adios
Just so everyone knows, I will be taking a temporary Wikibreak for at least 5-7 days to let off some steam and get myself reenergized. Some of the stress has got to me, so I think it's best if I should take a couple of days off. I also have final exams coming up as well. I will only be back to work on certain articles. Till then, adios. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:09, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
- Final exams are much more important than anything that might happen here, so concentrate on them. They can change your life, but nothing here will. Malleus Fatuorum 20:15, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
- See ya when you get back. I was off for about two weeks myself for family issues.--Amadscientist (talk) 20:32, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, everyone. Also, just to clarify, some of the stress stems from the recent disputes that I have been involved in as well as my frustration over Wikipedia's inability to deal with a couple of persistently disruptive users (i.e. those with a bullying or battleground mentality in general or those who seem to be oblivious to their own uncivil behaviors), combined with the realization of my unintended immaturity in some of my approaches to dealing with these users (including my unintentional feeding of the Streisand effect), a couple of users' comments towards me were in a negative light and/or condescending (I have exceptionally low tolerance for these comments which were uncalled for, and one of these users has already apologized to me after I apologized to him). I have been recently subjected to very serious personal abuse and constant uncivil behavior by these users, but I have mostly moved on from that. Such things like these are considered a disgrace to the community and to some editors with an excellent contribution record, including myself. Also, I fear that if I engage a disruptive user while trying to avoid them, I may push the wrong buttons accidentally. These reasons are a couple of the factors in my Wikibreak, and are also why I refuse to get involved in dealing with other difficult users until the time is right because it causes me undue stress. In the past, while I have almost always been civil, I may have caused issues with other users (disruptive or not) in anyway or might have been uncivil in any way towards anyone and I do not appreciate it when people are incivil or condescending towards me, so if I have done that or anything wrong, I am terribly sorry and I really didn't mean for some things to happen... Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 15:27, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
- We all cross the line from time to time. I did with History2007s failed RfA and likely other times. Another time, Ent once told me I was stressed and needed to take a break, so I did. We are all human, we care, so we get caught up in events sometimes. Having the ability to see and understand our limits is what prevents us from repeating the same mistake too many times, and keeps us out of trouble. Taking a break is a good idea, we all need to from time to time, none of us are exempt. Don't beat yourself up over mistakes, just learn from them, get a break, come back and continue to do good things. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:38, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks, Dennis. I have been feeling a little isolated and betrayed by some of the Wikipedia community after that resentful heckling and negativity by some long-term abusive users over the past couple of months, which I find to be off-putting from the beginning (fortunately, part of that has already been dealt with and Ched has apologized to me after realizing he said some things in a negative light, which I am grateful for since I apologized to him in the first place if I caused any issues with other users and was uncivil in any way, as I am a level-headed person by nature). I think it's best to avoid contentious confrontations like these on Wikipedia, but life in general. That same thing happened to DarthBotto, a user who has kept himself busy with other things due to his dealings with a long-term abusive user. Also, before I go, I would like to make it clear to everyone that I have a very strict policy advising against all personal attacks and have an exceptionally low tolerance for uncalled for comments which I find to be harassing, haranguing, accusatory, inflammatory, incivil, heckling, insulting, condescending, disrespectful, abusive, venomous, yelling, annoying, embarassing, temperamental, rude or threatening, or those that are full of vulgarity. All of these can create a power imbalance in communication and are considered detrimental to the discussion. If these happen, I will remove and disregard them on sight if they are posted on my talk page. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 15:52, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
- Honestly, I've felt a weight on me as well, which is why I've chosen to bury myself deep into article content, finishing up a rather large project and taking it to GA, only my second and the only one where I was mainly alone on the content. It helps that it isn't a controversial topic. Sometimes, the best thing to do is ignore everyone and just find something fun to research and create. That is what we are here for anyway. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:07, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah. I feel mostly the same way as you, lad. I don't know why Fladrif and other users have gone so far just to demoralize me and be punished for my shortcomings, but I can't trust users like these no longer, as well as those who attempt to bludgeon me with rhetorics or venomous falsehoods. Dealing with a couple of abusive users has partially caused me undue stress on my part (and I admit that I have done that unintentionally) and have emphasized the fact that, in the immortal words of DarthBotto, "some things are just not worth the risk". I get a little upset whenever someone posts questionable aspects on my behavior (i.e. attempting to discredit me). If a user involved in a dispute for example, the best bet is to come back to it at a later time (whether it's a long time or a short time) and focus on content. Also, if a user has made negative observations about me in the past, it's always best to apologize if they realize those mistakes (as is the case here, where Ched apologized if he offended me personally (I felt that I was offended by some of his comments pertaining to some issues that need to be dealt with) and praised me for my efforts in improving Wikipedia and will not "hold grudges" and he said "it's all good.") I never intend to personally attack anyone nor do I want to risk feeding the Streisand effect or get blocked for unintended personal attacks. However, I have occasionally lost my temper and stepped on some toes from time to time. In any case, though, I am not at all humiliated. Nor am I a liar. The best strategy whenever you are involved in a dispute: Keep Calm and Carry On. Unfortunately, in other related news, Gwickwire has retired over a major incident at ANI. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:17, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
- Honestly, I've felt a weight on me as well, which is why I've chosen to bury myself deep into article content, finishing up a rather large project and taking it to GA, only my second and the only one where I was mainly alone on the content. It helps that it isn't a controversial topic. Sometimes, the best thing to do is ignore everyone and just find something fun to research and create. That is what we are here for anyway. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:07, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks, Dennis. I have been feeling a little isolated and betrayed by some of the Wikipedia community after that resentful heckling and negativity by some long-term abusive users over the past couple of months, which I find to be off-putting from the beginning (fortunately, part of that has already been dealt with and Ched has apologized to me after realizing he said some things in a negative light, which I am grateful for since I apologized to him in the first place if I caused any issues with other users and was uncivil in any way, as I am a level-headed person by nature). I think it's best to avoid contentious confrontations like these on Wikipedia, but life in general. That same thing happened to DarthBotto, a user who has kept himself busy with other things due to his dealings with a long-term abusive user. Also, before I go, I would like to make it clear to everyone that I have a very strict policy advising against all personal attacks and have an exceptionally low tolerance for uncalled for comments which I find to be harassing, haranguing, accusatory, inflammatory, incivil, heckling, insulting, condescending, disrespectful, abusive, venomous, yelling, annoying, embarassing, temperamental, rude or threatening, or those that are full of vulgarity. All of these can create a power imbalance in communication and are considered detrimental to the discussion. If these happen, I will remove and disregard them on sight if they are posted on my talk page. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 15:52, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
- Lord Jones, if I may be so bold as to make a suggestion. When you return from your R&R would you consider starting a page, somewhere, maybe in a sandbox or something, where we could collect the stated reasons that editors give for retiring. I suggest this to you because you seem to have an interest and awareness of retiring editors. We are Editor Retention and we are searching for ways that we can be a part of the solution to the problem. I think some of our answers as to our future direction lie in the soliloquies that frustrated editors "purge to anyone listening" as to what is wrong and why they can't take it anymore. As they are walking out the WP Door, they want us to know whats wrong and that we need to fix it. I would be more than happy to assist and should this sub-project get legs, I'm sure other editors will get involved. Thank You. ```Buster Seven Talk 13:47, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
- Attn Stalkers: Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Editor Retention/Soliloquies Any and all epitaphs are welcome. ```Buster Seven Talk 12:25, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
All right. Now that the dust has been temporarily settled, I am thinking about planning to take a look at a couple of events here that can lead to a retirement. Does anyone remember the recent Fladrif fiasco at ANI? I think that stemmed from Fladrif's personal attacks towards other users, including Dreadstar (which he was driven off of), Ched and myself, as well as his bludgeoning of other users as well including Penbat, a respected user who has created numerous articles pertaining to abuse and bullying. Penbat was wikihounded by Fladrif on some of his articles and according to him, he seemed to align himself with Star767, a possible sockpuppet of a banned user. Penbat was intrigued by the talk page information, so he had to compile that as evidence with other evidence provided by Bbb23, Keithbob and other users. So, in short, incivility and personal attacks often drives other good users away, but in the end, users will eventually end up being blocked, as is the case here. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:00, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
VisualEditor is coming
The WP:VisualEditor is designed to let people edit without needing to learn wikitext syntax. The articles will look (nearly) the same in the new edit "window" as when you read them (aka WYSIWYG), and changes will show up as you type them, very much like writing a document in a modern word processor. The devs currently expect to deploy the VisualEditor as the new site-wide default editing system in early July 2013.
About 2,000 editors have tried out this early test version so far, and feedback overall has been positive. Right now, the VisualEditor is available only to registered users who opt-in, and it's a bit slow and limited in features. You can do all the basic things like writing or changing sentences, creating or changing section headings, and editing simple bulleted lists. It currently can't either add or remove templates (like fact tags), ref tags, images, categories, or tables (and it will not be turned on for new users until common reference styles and citation templates are supported). These more complex features are being worked on, and the code will be updated as things are worked out. Also, right now you can only use it for articles and user pages. When it's deployed in July, the old editor will still be available and, in fact, the old edit window will be the only option for talk pages (I believe that WP:Flow is ultimately supposed to deal with talk pages).
The developers are asking editors like you to join the alpha testing for the VisualEditor. Please go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing and tick the box at the end of the page, where it says "Enable VisualEditor (only in the main namespace and the User namespace)". Save the preferences, and then try fixing a few typos or copyediting a few articles by using the new "Edit" tab instead of the section [Edit] buttons or the old editing window (which will still be present and still work for you, but which will be renamed "Edit source"). Fix a typo or make some changes, and then click the 'save and review' button (at the top of the page). See what works and what doesn't. We really need people who will try this out on 10 or 15 pages and then leave a note Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedback about their experiences, especially if something mission-critical isn't working and doesn't seem to be on anyone's radar.
Also, if any of you are involved in template maintenance or documentation about how to edit pages, the VisualEditor will require some extra attention. The devs want to incorporate things like citation templates directly into the editor, which means that they need to know what information goes in which fields. Obviously, the screenshots and instructions for basic editing will need to be completely updated. The old edit window is not going away, so help pages will likely need to cover both the old and the new.
As you know, minor changes are used as excuses for leaving Wikipedia (or at least for threatening to leave), and major changes really do cost us people and productivity, because there no matter how great the ultimate product, there will be people who are already on the point of leaving and who decide therefore that the learning curve is just not worth it. The WMF is committed to this long-requested improvement, and it's my impression that nothing short of a complete collapse of the servers will cause it to be reversed, no matter how outsized our sense of entitlement is. Changing how the website functions and appears is a listed exception to things controlled by editor consensus. So with all of that in mind, one of the main purposes for this message is to make sure that you know that this will be happening, so that you at least aren't surprised by it, and that you know that you don't need to use the new editor if you don't want to. The new editing system will become the default, not the only option. If you have any other questions and can't find a better place to ask them, then please feel free to leave a message on my user talk page, and perhaps together we'll be able to figure it out. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:38, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
- Unintended consequences It is possible that the VisualEditor when it's fully rolled out may bring in a flood of inexperienced users and we all know what the community thinks of newbies. We may have to upgrade WP:BITE to WP:FEEDING FRENZY. Something that the folks here at WER might want to think about as the devs make progress on the VE. Cheers. 64.40.54.171 (talk) 16:39, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree. Wikipedians sure don't like nubees (and slowpokes like me), but wp:wer is probably the wrong place to bring this up. Just my $.02 XOttawahitech (talk) 14:35, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- I'd query that overall positive thing. There are a lot of limitations in the visual editor. Hopefully more of the bugs will be fixed by rollout, and if we are losing section editing then I wouldn't be so sure it will get a nett increase in newbies. But it will get a change in the community if we have a whole subcommunity of editors who can't get involved in categorisation and who ignore infoboxes. I suspect we will have to educate oldsters not to try and get editors who use the visual editor to keep cats and infoboxes in line with text. ϢereSpielChequers 09:47, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
- It needs, as far as I can see, a heck of a lot more development. All I can think of is that it will make things a lot easier for the vandals and hence a lot more work for us. I'm an old fogey and I didn't exactly grow up with computers, but having used them for around 25 years I never had the slightest problems with the normal editing interface. I suspect that most new editors are a generation or two (or even three) younger than me, and should be even more computer savvy. I can envisage us losing a lot of editors if the current editing system were ever to be discontinued at any time. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:29, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
- You old fogey, you probably leave hand written messages instead of templates, too ;) I cut my teeth in DOS and still manage Linux servers in a bash shell, so the current system is fine for me. I even disable all buttons. However, a great many people just want to add information and find it intimidating. They aren't interested in mastering the finer arts of bracketing and instead want the interface to be Microsoft-like with buttons and cute clicky-things. I can hardly blame them. As for vandals, I doubt that the current learning curve has been holding back the floodgates. Vandals aren't particularly bothered by poor formatting nor compelled to follow WP:MOS when adding "U r teh sUx!" to an article. I haven't looked at the new visual editor yet, since I'm not likely to use it, but hopefully they will get enough of it right that it doesn't pose a burden to clean up on every article. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 16:24, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
- I bet you still use vi Dennis; at least I've upgraded to vim. I could give you a list right now of at least some of the things the new visual editor won't handle, all of which will cause additional work for those trying to add proper referencing, for instance. Malleus Fatuorum 16:31, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
- I lost a lot of good friends during the Editor war; really good friends. Being a conscientious objector during the war, I used pico and now nano for all my conf files. Forgot to add that I'm never at the servers when I work on them, it is always via ssh, often miles away. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 17:09, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
- I bet you still use vi Dennis; at least I've upgraded to vim. I could give you a list right now of at least some of the things the new visual editor won't handle, all of which will cause additional work for those trying to add proper referencing, for instance. Malleus Fatuorum 16:31, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
- You old fogey, you probably leave hand written messages instead of templates, too ;) I cut my teeth in DOS and still manage Linux servers in a bash shell, so the current system is fine for me. I even disable all buttons. However, a great many people just want to add information and find it intimidating. They aren't interested in mastering the finer arts of bracketing and instead want the interface to be Microsoft-like with buttons and cute clicky-things. I can hardly blame them. As for vandals, I doubt that the current learning curve has been holding back the floodgates. Vandals aren't particularly bothered by poor formatting nor compelled to follow WP:MOS when adding "U r teh sUx!" to an article. I haven't looked at the new visual editor yet, since I'm not likely to use it, but hopefully they will get enough of it right that it doesn't pose a burden to clean up on every article. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 16:24, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
- It needs, as far as I can see, a heck of a lot more development. All I can think of is that it will make things a lot easier for the vandals and hence a lot more work for us. I'm an old fogey and I didn't exactly grow up with computers, but having used them for around 25 years I never had the slightest problems with the normal editing interface. I suspect that most new editors are a generation or two (or even three) younger than me, and should be even more computer savvy. I can envisage us losing a lot of editors if the current editing system were ever to be discontinued at any time. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:29, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
- I believe that the goal is that the VisualEditor will eventually be able to handle everything. It's made substantial progress in available features just in the few weeks that I've tried it.
- 64.40, I don't believe that a "flood of inexperienced users" is exactly an unintended consequence. People here have been squawking for years now that we aren't getting enough new users to replace the ones who get fed up, or who move on due to life circumstances. The WMF has decided that our many-years-long begging for a more WYSWIG-like editor could fit into their strategic plan to bring in more new editors, as well as to increase diversity away from people who personally remember the editor war or who learned about it as part of their computer science courses. (Speaking of which, obviously, all right-thinking people used DEC's EDT back in the day, because all right-thinking people wanted a system with actual security, which automatically ruled out every available version of U*ix). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:58, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
- It may have done back in the day of ancient stuff like DECs, but there have been secure versions of Unix around since at least the 1980s. As for the visual editor, I'll wait and see before I say "I told you so", as I inevitably will given the track record of the developers to date. Malleus Fatuorum 21:13, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
- I suppose it depends on your definition of "secure". Last I heard, there were still exactly zero stock exchanges that were willing to run Unix, but most of them are happy running VMS (DEC was the company). WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:17, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- It may have done back in the day of ancient stuff like DECs, but there have been secure versions of Unix around since at least the 1980s. As for the visual editor, I'll wait and see before I say "I told you so", as I inevitably will given the track record of the developers to date. Malleus Fatuorum 21:13, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
- I agree (having tried it out myself) that it needs work...getting it to do citations and templates is going to be interesting. If they get it to work, I do think it will be a positive thing, not being in the "oldschool" category myself :-) I think it will open up Wikipedia editing to a wide range of editors who would edit, but don't because they think it's too complicated. ~Adjwilley (talk) 02:37, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- Speaking of categories, it appears that they're working on categorization. Perhaps that will appear in a few weeks. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:17, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- I agree (having tried it out myself) that it needs work...getting it to do citations and templates is going to be interesting. If they get it to work, I do think it will be a positive thing, not being in the "oldschool" category myself :-) I think it will open up Wikipedia editing to a wide range of editors who would edit, but don't because they think it's too complicated. ~Adjwilley (talk) 02:37, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- As long as we're all reminiscing How about actually knowing the net topology because you had to write out bang paths to send email. I miss the days when everything was text and there was no point-and-click interface. Everybody you worked with then was bright and we were building the future decades before it caught on. We would embrace any newbie that was willing to learn and take them under our wing. Great days.
- @WAID, I was thinking the possible flood of newbies was hoped for by some, but the pouncing on them part would be the unintended consequence. I can see I didn't convey that very well. My mistake. The net is a very different place today. Not many people are willing to take a newbie under their wing like we did in the good old days. Sad. 64.40.57.162 (talk) 03:30, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- I don't miss bang paths at all, but I didn't need to use them very often.
- I suspect that the WMF is aware of how hostile the English Wikipedia is to newcomers, or to anyone, really. Software can't fix culture problems. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:17, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- I suspect the WMF doesn't realise just how hostile they are to the main core of regular volunteers... (ever been to Wikimania, WhatamIdoing?) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 16:50, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- I've had a couple of encounters whereby their insensitivity took my breath away. I certainly don't blame the bulk of the Foundation employees who are often ordinary editors and admin here like you and I, but there is a systemic problem in how the Foundation as a whole relates to the larger community. It often feels like I'm being told "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain", by a singular illusion called "The Foundation". Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 15:40, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
- I suspect the WMF doesn't realise just how hostile they are to the main core of regular volunteers... (ever been to Wikimania, WhatamIdoing?) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 16:50, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- About a decade ago, I spent about five years on the board of a non-profit, and over those years, I came to see a pattern--the organization was largely broken into two groups--not by conscious choice, but by what work they were doing--into two groups that didin't ordinarily need to communicate much, but each made decisions that had a lot of effect on the others. Most of the people on both sides of that particular fence were unpaid and passionate volunteers, but there were a few paid people as well, mostly on my side of that fence. It was difficult to get volunteers to spend much time at "maintenance communication", in fact, it was arguably asking too much of people who were already having too much asked of them. So inevitably, someone, often the staff, would make a decision, there would be drama, after much angst, there'd be communication and reconciliation, real attempts and putting better long-term communication in place, that would slack off, and the cycle would begin again. I was never able to find a structural way of fixing the problem, only mitigating it. But it came in large part from the fact that most of the people involved on both sides of the fence were passionate about the work they were doing.
- This isn't precisely what's happening here, but the WMF (the editing community, and arguably the devs form three such clusters for Wikimedia) but there are days where all this Wikifuss sure seems to rhyme. --j⚛e deckertalk 16:07, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
- I see that the next big Foundation project that is going to be impoed on us is the way we communicate on our talk pages. Again, I belive this is a solution looking for a problem, and I'm surprised yet again that the Foundation refuses the need to address the issue of a proper landing page for new users/new page creators. Jorm made a half-hearted attempt at something to quieten us down, but in spite of many reminders, AFAICS, no further development was undertaken and the project seems to have been brushed quietly under the carpet. Several WMF projects have been proven to be a waste of resources and money, and a test of volunteers' patience, endurement, and dedication. The net result is that they will lose editors for us, which seems to be a rather cack-handed way of addressing their aggressive expansion goals. I hope WhatamIdoing, who vociferously supports and campaigns for everything the WMF does, will take note. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:44, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
- I seem to recall... ahh, here it is. You, WhatamIdoing, and I discussed the "new page creator" problem in September 2011: [1]. --j⚛e deckertalk 01:57, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
- I see that the next big Foundation project that is going to be impoed on us is the way we communicate on our talk pages. Again, I belive this is a solution looking for a problem, and I'm surprised yet again that the Foundation refuses the need to address the issue of a proper landing page for new users/new page creators. Jorm made a half-hearted attempt at something to quieten us down, but in spite of many reminders, AFAICS, no further development was undertaken and the project seems to have been brushed quietly under the carpet. Several WMF projects have been proven to be a waste of resources and money, and a test of volunteers' patience, endurement, and dedication. The net result is that they will lose editors for us, which seems to be a rather cack-handed way of addressing their aggressive expansion goals. I hope WhatamIdoing, who vociferously supports and campaigns for everything the WMF does, will take note. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:44, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
- My experience with the WMF has been consistently positive. As a dynamic IP, the community treats me just like any other new user (i.e. not very well at times). But over the last decade, the WMF has been consistently courteous and helpful everytime. For example, when I helped write the 4 million article blog post, they asked if I wanted attribution. I said no, then changed my mind at the last minute and they were happy to help. I have even had the WMF come to my defense when people forgot to follow our WP:AGF guideline. Just to clarify, I don't mean one or two events. I mean the folks at the WMF have been consistely cordial and helpful for the last 10 years. I know they have helped multiple people conduct surveys of our editors. They have also actively sought out input from the community when designing the new WP:NPT interface. I am very thankful that the WMF maintains the servers and helps fix bugs in the software. And if you think I'm a WMF cheerleader you'd be correct. The folks at the WMF have always treated me with respect and courtesy. I can't say the same for the general enwp community, though I'd say most of the folks here at WER are also respectful. But I think the folks here at WER are the exception rather than the rule. 64.40.57.33 (talk) 02:18, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, we can cite plenty of sources and instances where the Foundation staff have been very much other than courteous and helpful. Sometimes even downright rude. Sounds accusing, but those are sadly the facts. The core team at the WMF usually functions well but when the volunteers intervene to upset their office room comfort, they tend to polarise, hence no one takes either responsibility or initiative. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:28, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
- It is strange to hear you say that they never take initiative, in the context of you complaining that they are taking the initiative, and that they have taken the initiative in the past, including on projects that publicly failed. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:56, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, we can cite plenty of sources and instances where the Foundation staff have been very much other than courteous and helpful. Sometimes even downright rude. Sounds accusing, but those are sadly the facts. The core team at the WMF usually functions well but when the volunteers intervene to upset their office room comfort, they tend to polarise, hence no one takes either responsibility or initiative. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:28, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
- @Kudpung, I heard about the Wikimania incident and I agree the WMF was in the wrong. I hope you were offered an apology, if not you are definately owed one. But It is my belief that those types of incidents are few and far between. I may be wrong (and i often am wrong), but I think the WMF (as a whole) is far more encouraging and helpful then the general enwp community (as a whole). But like I said, I am often worng and I'll be the first to admit that. 64.40.57.33 (talk) 02:53, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
- Open mounth. insert foot I'm still a WMF cheerleader, but the Foundation wiki de-admining was a serious mistake by the WMF. 64.40.54.136 (talk) 02:17, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
- It does seem very strange, but I imagine they felt they had a good reason. After all, the Foundation had to know it was going to cause a stir. AutomaticStrikeout ? 02:33, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
- The question isn't whether they knew, but if they cared. While I would like to think so, the way they do things every now and then (ham-fisted), it makes you wonder. I wish I didn't have to wonder. This is exactly the kind of thing that causes members of the community to feel like they are just tools, and hurts editor retention. I know they have to make tough calls, I work in the business world so I understand, but how you do something is often as important as what it is you are doing. Particularly since we are talking about volunteers. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 02:46, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
- It does seem very strange, but I imagine they felt they had a good reason. After all, the Foundation had to know it was going to cause a stir. AutomaticStrikeout ? 02:33, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
- Open mounth. insert foot I'm still a WMF cheerleader, but the Foundation wiki de-admining was a serious mistake by the WMF. 64.40.54.136 (talk) 02:17, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
- @Kudpung, I heard about the Wikimania incident and I agree the WMF was in the wrong. I hope you were offered an apology, if not you are definately owed one. But It is my belief that those types of incidents are few and far between. I may be wrong (and i often am wrong), but I think the WMF (as a whole) is far more encouraging and helpful then the general enwp community (as a whole). But like I said, I am often worng and I'll be the first to admit that. 64.40.57.33 (talk) 02:53, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that "how" matters as much as "what" in some cases. That cuts both ways, of course: volunteers who earn a reputation for being disagreeable shouldn't be surprised if no one wants to do them any favors, just like devs who develop such a reputation can expect every action to be received with suspicion.
- I think the devs are also suffering from the usual IT disease: nobody notices unless you screw up. I understand that the software normally gets updated every two weeks. I doubt that anybody notices, unless something goes wrong. Then we complain about how horrible they are, without noticing that the previous dozen updates caused no significant problems. There's no practical solution for this; being ignored unless something goes wrong, and then being blamed even when it's not your fault, is just part of the job.
- (I find that I can't get myself worked up over who's permitted to be an admin on the WMF's "corporate" website and who's not. It is perhaps the least important of the websites, existing only for official communication. If the WMF wants to deal with it entirely, then let them. Our volunteers could do something more important, since that's why we're WP:HERE.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:01, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
- My take on the de-admining The Foundation has known that there's been a rift between the community and the WMF since 2009, which peaked during the ACTRIAL ferfuffle. They brought in Maggie and Oliver specifically for community relations because they wanted to improve things. They've also been engaging the community at every turn, asking for input on software changes, etc.. They have been doing a fantastic job in my opinion. But the de-admining was a mistake—a BIG mistake. It's like WAID said, Nobody notices until you make a mistake. The thing is, they have been conscientiously making their best effort to improve WMF/community relations. So the wholesale de-admining of everybody set them back considerably. They should have at least asked Maggie or Oliver,
how do you think the community will react if we de-admin all non-employee admins
before they did anything. The "how" was far more important than the "what" because—regarless of what people say—many admins do view adminship as a badge of honor that they have earned through countless hours of selfless dedication to the project. Taking that away—even if it is justified—is still a slap in the face. They should have told people what the problem was and asked if people would voluntarily turn in their bits to help the situation. I'm still a going to be a cheerleader for the WMF, but this was a very bad move on the WMF's part and it makes me wonder how much they care about the individuals that make up the community. 64.40.54.96 (talk) 01:36, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
18 Editors of the Week
User:Dismas has over a decade worth of block-free work primarily on content (over 70% of 65000 total contributions). Editor of the Week was founded to recognize under-appreciated content contributors, and Dismas meets the requirements. With over 120 members, WER should be able to create more than a handfull of congratulations@ Dismas' talk page. Dont hesitate to Nominate. You will be happy that you did! ```Buster Seven Talk 06:21, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
- There a currently 6 editors in the Q for EotW. More nominations are always welcome.
- Visiting the Awardee's page a day or two after and offering your congratulations is extremely rewarding and empowering. Just ask some of the editors that have been doing it since the first Sunday. If you already visit the recepients page, thank you. If you don't, this is just a gentle reminder to participate.```Buster Seven Talk 12:36, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Merchandise Nominations
- Kelvinsong.......................
Done
- Eric Enfermero.................
Done
- Coal town guy..................
Done
- Diiscool...........................
Done
- Benzband...........................
Done
- Wetman...........................
Done
- Always Learning...............
Done
- Another Believer..............
Done
- Bleaney................................
Done
- Sagaciousphil...................
Done
- BlueMoonset......................
Done
- Surtsicina.........................
Done
- Anna Frodesiak..............
Done
- Anne Delong...................still to do
- Tomobe03.......................
Done
- FeydHuxtable....................still to nominate
- Delaywaves....................still to nominate
- Dismas...........................Recent EotW
- Coreapple........................Most recent EotW
Like Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 16:25, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Discussion notification
There is a a discussion going on at Wikipedia talk:Kindness Campaign regarding the organization of a Kindness Day or something similar. I am mentioning it here as it may be of interest to some of you. AutomaticStrikeout ? 14:50, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Editor Retention
Copied from User talk:Dennis Brown
A while ago we had a conversation about editor retention. One thing I don't think we discussed was the role Cyber Bullying and Cyber Stalking plays in editors quitting wikipedia. Because if you're a victim of such abuse, its been my experience over the last year there is an unwillingness for admins to look at such problems, they make a presumption that both sides are equally to blame and sanction both victim and culprit. Anyway, whilst I have come close several times (and meant it at the time) I have finally had it. Wee Curry Monster talk 18:50, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- Its hard to voice an opinion on the general topic of cyber bullying, and you didn't provide links for me to review any particular case. It isn't a term I use around here very often, and I see it thrown around here pretty often, including in some circumstances where it might apply, and others where it really doesn't. Sometimes people have heated discussions, or someone is just flat rude, which I don't consider cyber bullying as much as it being, well, rude. If someone is WP:HOUNDING you, ANI is the place to go. Without more information, I'm not sure what else to say. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 19:01, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) WCM, this kind of thing happens in school. Generally, who ever is to blame, the solution is to separate both parties - and that's what's being suggested. it doesn't mean you have to give up your studies. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:31, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- Not so simple. Expert bullies and stalkers are subtle, underhand and two-faced and attempt to demean, humilate and harass in ways that are difficult to document. Cordial communication with others masks the nastiness. There's a lot of it about. J3Mrs (talk) 21:24, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- Yep...and it all too often flies under the radar. Intothatdarkness 21:51, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- Honestly, it is sometimes difficult to make the call being on this side of the admin bit. What we admin love is situations where it is cut and dry, one sided, but when both parties are a bit rude to each other, filing through hundreds and hundreds of diffs (I mean this literally, btw) is confusing and sometimes it is just impossible to get all the context. In those cases, if we have any doubt, we can't take action, or we are the abusive admin. Not making excuses by any means, I'm just saying when you are the one with the buttons and you have to explain in excruciating detail every single action you make, you have no choice but to err on the side of "do nothing" unless you are very sure. Even when you are right, there is the risk that the blocked editor's 100 friends will pound you at ANI, scream bloody murder, and apologists will line up to lynch you as the blocking admin, wasting a lot of time and causing a great deal of stress. Wikipedia can just quite be brutal to admin trying to do the right thing at times, just as it is to editors. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 22:04, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- No need to text wall...my comment refers more to an overall lacking in wiki-type policy on the whole. A lack that takes a toll. It's always easier (both to do and to explain) to block someone for calling someone a "fuckface" than it is to deal with OWN of policy, passive-aggressive POV pushing, and the hundreds of other little things that can make time here unpleasant. Intothatdarkness 22:18, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- Pithiness isn't my strong suit, but yes, clearly demonstrating POV is very difficult if you aren't very familiar with the topic, and if you are very familiar, you might have edited it and would be WP:INVOLVED... Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 22:23, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- And to an extent that's one of the things that is exploited by the passive POV pusher. Those who know the subject will be painted as OWNing the article somehow, and the one who appears so nice and polite is often taken at face value. Nasty business we're at here... Intothatdarkness 22:31, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- Walking into these situations, I sometimes feel like a blind dog in a meat packing plant: I just don't know which way to turn. We admin aren't any brighter than the non-admin, you know. We just muddle along and do the best we can. That often comes up short but not for a lack of effort. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 22:36, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- I was replying to Kudpung as I thought his reply was way too simplistic. I can see that you make strenuous efforts to be fair, but even in the real world bullying is hard to prove and the victim is really the only one who knows precisely what is going on. Details may seem trivial in themselves but they can add up to something far more sinister. J3Mrs (talk) 08:52, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
- Walking into these situations, I sometimes feel like a blind dog in a meat packing plant: I just don't know which way to turn. We admin aren't any brighter than the non-admin, you know. We just muddle along and do the best we can. That often comes up short but not for a lack of effort. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 22:36, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- And to an extent that's one of the things that is exploited by the passive POV pusher. Those who know the subject will be painted as OWNing the article somehow, and the one who appears so nice and polite is often taken at face value. Nasty business we're at here... Intothatdarkness 22:31, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- Pithiness isn't my strong suit, but yes, clearly demonstrating POV is very difficult if you aren't very familiar with the topic, and if you are very familiar, you might have edited it and would be WP:INVOLVED... Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 22:23, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- No need to text wall...my comment refers more to an overall lacking in wiki-type policy on the whole. A lack that takes a toll. It's always easier (both to do and to explain) to block someone for calling someone a "fuckface" than it is to deal with OWN of policy, passive-aggressive POV pushing, and the hundreds of other little things that can make time here unpleasant. Intothatdarkness 22:18, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- Honestly, it is sometimes difficult to make the call being on this side of the admin bit. What we admin love is situations where it is cut and dry, one sided, but when both parties are a bit rude to each other, filing through hundreds and hundreds of diffs (I mean this literally, btw) is confusing and sometimes it is just impossible to get all the context. In those cases, if we have any doubt, we can't take action, or we are the abusive admin. Not making excuses by any means, I'm just saying when you are the one with the buttons and you have to explain in excruciating detail every single action you make, you have no choice but to err on the side of "do nothing" unless you are very sure. Even when you are right, there is the risk that the blocked editor's 100 friends will pound you at ANI, scream bloody murder, and apologists will line up to lynch you as the blocking admin, wasting a lot of time and causing a great deal of stress. Wikipedia can just quite be brutal to admin trying to do the right thing at times, just as it is to editors. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 22:04, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- Yep...and it all too often flies under the radar. Intothatdarkness 21:51, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- Not so simple. Expert bullies and stalkers are subtle, underhand and two-faced and attempt to demean, humilate and harass in ways that are difficult to document. Cordial communication with others masks the nastiness. There's a lot of it about. J3Mrs (talk) 21:24, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- WCM has retired and added a wikibreak enforcer as his last edit. Darkness Shines (talk) 20:34, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- That's hardly conclusive. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:38, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- It's difficult to come in uninformed at the 11th hour and change the outcome of an unfortunate situation. It is difficult enough if you are along for the ride. I still don't have all the facts (I'm currently pulled in a dozen different directions on different projects) but I hope he takes a break, reassesses the situation, and reconsiders the retirement. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 21:04, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- I also agree that there are a lot of bullies in Wikipedia and a lot of stalking and baiting that goes on. I have seen it first hand and I have, in several cases, tried to stop it. Unfortunately as Dennis said above its easier to block someone for telling a user off than to deal with the problem which may have culminated over months or years. There has also been a lot of occasions where admins were bullying editors in one way or another and nothing was done about it. I have been known (and blocked for it) to tell a user off from time to time when they were bullying other users and largely because of my rather aggressive stance dealing with these cyber bullies I will never be allowed to have access to the admin tools. An Ironic twist really but that's like on Wiki. It does cause a lot of users to leave and is a significant contributor IMO to the decreasing civility of the Wikipedia and a steady decline in our online culture and presence. Kumioko (talk) 09:38, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Bullies/Thoughts on the subject
In all my travels around WikiLand, I'm not sure I've seen a discussion entirely focussed on Bullying. Maybe WER provides a perfect empty canvas for editors to weigh in with their thoughts. Who wants to continue what ws started above? ```Buster Seven Talk 03:57, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- User:Penbat has some useful views on bullying and is active in topics surrounding it. They and I have worked together on some of them. There is also WP:CYBER which may interest you. Fiddle Faddle 21:44, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Sunday is EotW Day
For the past 19 weeks, WER clerks have been dispensing the highly successful Editor of the Week Award. 19 low-key, out-of-the-limelight editors have been acknowledged for their efforts on behalf of the Encyclopedia. Fellow WER members have been visiting their respective talk pages and offering further thanks and support. The recipients have responded with some truly special comments. Every editor that is reading this wastes so much time with the "crap" @ WP. Invest a couple of minutes in congratulating a worker bee. You will be happy that you did. This week's recipient is User Closeapple. Go tell him how important he is to this effort of Encyclopedia building. ```Buster Seven Talk 04:10, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Collaboration request, please
I have started an embryo essay in my userspace and I am inviting folk here who wish to collaborate and make ot an essay worth releasing into the wild. Yes, this really is an invitation to edit something in another user's space!
I'm trying to address the sometimes extremely poor treatment of well qualified academics who find the environment here to be inhospitable. I'm hoping to address from from the perspective of the academic and from those who sometimes berate them. So please join in at User:Timtrent/Relationships with academic editors, ideally contributing text, but, if you prefer, using its talk page.
The end game is to move this and the associated talk page into Wikipedia: space when it is judged to be ready Patently that is not today. Fiddle Faddle 21:39, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- You may want to review the existing essays WP:RANDY and WP:SCUM and consider expanding one of them instead fo starting an entirely new essay as they seem to be covering the same ground. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- Having looked at the latter, it describes the symptom well. It does not advance any solution, though. I want to attempt to work towards a solution. The latter almost reveres the 'experts are scum' approach. I think each acts well as source 'data', but neither works well as a solution. Fiddle Faddle 22:43, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- In my experience, many of the people who go on about their expertise not being respected, are usually feeling disrespected when editing on topics in which they do not hold any advanced qualifications (and thus are not, by the academic world's standards, "experts"). There are exceptions, of course. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:44, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
ClueBot NG
If an editor made these two edits to Middle Ages and to Hengistbury Head, then received these two warnings (Warning Eric Corbett - #1) and (Warning Eric Corbett - #4) within the space of two days, how do you think they would feel about continuing to contribute to Wikipedia? Should this project be worried about a bot that performs like that in case the editor really was a newcomer? --RexxS (talk) 21:34, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I think we ought to report them as false positives so that the bot has a chance to learn. From a machine's perspective, one edit might have appeared to be "changing" lots of dates/numbers, and the other might have appeared to be inserting characters into a word. Cluebot probably needs to learn that such edits aren't so likely to be vandalism when accompanied by an edit summary. (I presume it checks for the existence of edit summaries.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, and the nature of the second warning (red triangles and such) was because the editor making the edits had already received a level 3 warning for vandalism from a human editor in between. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:52, 22 May 2013 (UTC)