→Reasons editors leave: comments on these excellent suggestions |
John Carter (talk | contribs) →Reasons editors leave: verbose commentary with a few ideas and concerns mentioned in it |
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*Thanks Tamsier for your useful contributions. I especially appreciate your suggestions in regard to new editors. It might be possible to set up a list of experienced editors willing to assist newcomers as mentors. They could be supported by a facility providing access to recently deleted articles from newcomers (or those threated with deletion) allowing them to review the articles and the reasons for deletion so they can offer assistance. Maybe there should also be safeguards against immediate deletion of articles from new editors for at least an initial period of a month or so. Bots could also be reprogrammed so as not to pick up newcomers' articles such as biographries for deletion just because they do not contain references. On notability, I also agree that many of Wikipedia's checks are suspect. They do not take account of the vast amount of published literature which is not accessible on the internet or of newspaper or journal articles which are purposely restricted to paying customers. Nor do they appear to take sufficient account of Wikipedia articles on the same topic in other languages. What we need is a safeguard mechanism for newcomers which is just as efficient as the methods now in use for negative criticism and deletion. - [[User:Ipigott|Ipigott]] ([[User talk:Ipigott|talk]]) 16:35, 2 July 2012 (UTC) |
*Thanks Tamsier for your useful contributions. I especially appreciate your suggestions in regard to new editors. It might be possible to set up a list of experienced editors willing to assist newcomers as mentors. They could be supported by a facility providing access to recently deleted articles from newcomers (or those threated with deletion) allowing them to review the articles and the reasons for deletion so they can offer assistance. Maybe there should also be safeguards against immediate deletion of articles from new editors for at least an initial period of a month or so. Bots could also be reprogrammed so as not to pick up newcomers' articles such as biographries for deletion just because they do not contain references. On notability, I also agree that many of Wikipedia's checks are suspect. They do not take account of the vast amount of published literature which is not accessible on the internet or of newspaper or journal articles which are purposely restricted to paying customers. Nor do they appear to take sufficient account of Wikipedia articles on the same topic in other languages. What we need is a safeguard mechanism for newcomers which is just as efficient as the methods now in use for negative criticism and deletion. - [[User:Ipigott|Ipigott]] ([[User talk:Ipigott|talk]]) 16:35, 2 July 2012 (UTC) |
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A few comments. |
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*1) First, it would be very useful, if possible, to identify editors who are primarily or exclusively POV pushers of some sort or other. Regarding content about such things as religions and/or other "belief systems", like maybe [[communism]], [[atheism]], [[socialism]], [[political liberalism]], [[conservatism]], and maybe specific aspects of the [[paranormal]] in general, and such. I think we have now and have had a number of editors, including some who have been around a long time and have gained some respect from their colleagues, who are, basically, here to push their POV. Such editors when forced to face their POV pushing will, at least sometimes, blame other editors for their situation and leaving, accusing those other editors of being POV pushers and forcing them to leave as a result. This allows them to see themselves, and perhaps have others who seek to misuse wikipedia in the same way see them, as being "victims" of other established POV pushers. I have seen ''several'' editors falsely accuse others of POV pushing, and in some cases retire, at least in the short term, from editing on such bases. This misrepresentation of some other editors, including admins, probably helps contribute to the perception of evil admins. Perhaps establishing some sort of more active, perhaps informal if necessary, admin conduct review board where such retiring POV pushers' claims could be examined, and, if found baseless, rejected, might contribute to the general level of respect for admins who haven't engaged in misconduct. |
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*2) A greater emphasis on creating "child" articles, like perhaps on books and individual theories, would probably be very useful. Again, working primarily in religion, paranormal, and other related fields, there are a number of theories out there which are certainly notable enough for inclusion in wikipedia as individual articles, but whose acceptance or respect in the relevant fields is perhaps such that they are not significant enough to be included in the main articles on the topics, where supporters of such theories seem to very often consider to be the first and primary place material about those theories should be placed. This seems to be particularly common in hotly debated issues about controversial topics. I don't know how to address this, but I think if we could help promote creation of these child articles in such topics, that might help a lot. |
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*3) Again, in religion and other articles about belief systems, paranormal, and the like, there is and I think has been for some time a disagreement about which sources are considered most reliable. Does perhaps the most recent book on a given topic count as the most reliable, even if it is clearly presenting a fringe or minority opinion, as many books do? [[Bart Ehrman]] said in I think ''Newsweek''? that the way many academics quickly establish themselves today is by at a comparatively early stage writing some book or paper promoting a plausible, if not likely, sensationalist idea. On that basis, they get invited to several talk shows, TV documentaries, and the like, and their names become known. Unfortunately, many people who know little if anything about a topic can be predisposed to believe in some sort of "conspiracy" about it, and accept these often ludicrous ideas right away. ''[[The DaVinci Code]]'' comes to mind here. Providing better, clearer, indications of how to deal with such questions, and where to find the more respected and accepted sources, would help a lot. |
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*4) Finally, one specific idea which maybe could be directly acted upon. I think we should very much encourage all editors to enable e-mail. Many editors of some standing will retire when they are faced with POV pushing or other misconduct which for whatever reason they personally cannot effectively work against. As a "last chance," I would hope to see some sort of way that after announcing a retirement a editor known to them, whom they might respect, could contact them and see if they could somehow deal with the issue which caused the retirement. |
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*5) Finally, and he is shutting up now, I would like to see maybe, perhaps even in the welcoming templates and new editor pages, some sort of clear indication of some kind of "reunion" period once or twice a year. I'm thinking here of college students and the like who write articles because, basically, they wrote them in school and wanted to share the results of their research with others. If they had e-mail established, and they kept it active, we could notify them of the times of such "reunions" in their topic areas, and maybe, if nothing else, get them back for a short time once or twice a year to help improve the articles they already developed and/or work on related articles. [[User:John Carter|John Carter]] ([[User talk:John Carter|talk]]) 16:40, 2 July 2012 (UTC) |
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== Increase retention of quality, experienced editors at Wikipedia == |
== Increase retention of quality, experienced editors at Wikipedia == |
Revision as of 16:40, 2 July 2012
Welcome
I'm seeing a lot of discussion in a lot of place regarding editor retention, but not a coordinated effort. This is that coordinated effort, a way for us to actually do something beside speak out in random venues. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 15:10, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
- Some of the frustration with editors is obviously the way that blocks are handled, which is confusing at best. Often one admin blocks where another would not. I don't think we will every get real parity, but a bit more consistency is needed, and I think we need to develop a consensus to be less quick to block in 3RR situations in particular. Dr. Blofeld attempted a policy that required notification before blocking at the pump, and while I don't think a policy is going to happen, I do think that having enough admins agree to this can lead to a consensus about the subject. This can be used to notify those that block too quickly, and provide a means to change some minds about drive by blocking. To me, it isn't about assigning blame as much as changing minds, and renormalizing the system to be less reactive when dealing with known editors. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 17:26, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
- It's not just blocks. When I was blocked (validity of which is highly questionable) there was a big rush to put only templates on my user page. But when Will Beback got banned by arbcom, there was this outcry to keep his user page intact, to the point that arbs got involved. Explain the equity in that. PumpkinSky talk 19:17, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
- One issue at a time :) You are welcome to start a whole different thread on templating, and add that to the front page as a bulleted concern. We have to focus on ONE, singular issue at a time (without ignoring others of course) to keep it focused on possible solutions. Otherwise it turns into a bitch fest. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 19:56, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
- It's not just blocks. When I was blocked (validity of which is highly questionable) there was a big rush to put only templates on my user page. But when Will Beback got banned by arbcom, there was this outcry to keep his user page intact, to the point that arbs got involved. Explain the equity in that. PumpkinSky talk 19:17, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
Block policy essentially requires that an editor admit his guilt, then explain what he will do in the future to make sure it doesn't happen. What about the times when the blocked person is innocent? This can happen when an admin is acting improperly, or is acting properly and just makes a mistake. For this discussion, I would prefer we assume it was a mistake and simply focus on what the solution should be. When it isn't an innocent mistake, then we have two problems, not one, so limiting the discussion to the one will keep it on topic. First reading the article Innocent prisoner's dilemma is required to get a full understanding of the problem here. The ideas proposed here are just rough ideas, and I wouldn't suggest running off an proposing them anywhere too soon. The purpose of the discussion is to try to find solutions and work out the bugs before proposing changes, to give a higher chance of reaching a consensus. Keeping arguments on topic and pithy is also helpful
A few facts
Currently, when a person is blocked for policy violation, they only have access to their talk page and to ask for an unblock. WP:UNBLOCK states: ...the blocking administrator should not decline unblock requests from users they have blocked. as well as Except in cases of unambiguous error, administrators should avoid unblocking users without first attempting to contact the blocking administrator to discuss the matter. If the blocking administrator is not available, or if the administrators cannot come to an agreement, then a discussion at the administrators' noticeboard is recommended.
Third party assistance for unblocking isn't covered specifically in policy, and acceptance of third party requests are inconsistent.
While it doesn't specifically state this (and perhaps it should), if an editor makes multiple requests for unblock, a different admin should review the unblock each time. The only exception would be if one of the previous declining admins decides to accept and unblock.
It should be obvious that no "justice system" is perfect, and that means that sometimes, innocent people ARE getting blocked, just as innocent people are convicted of crimes in the judicial system. What is needed is a system to allow review, but won't be used primarily as a source for abuse.
Since sometimes good admins make mistakes in blocking, we have to create an environment that doesn't attack the blocking admin when they are wrong. Accountability is important and should be part of the system, but we have to allow that mistakes will be made in good faith. In order to get admins to freely admit a mistake, you have to not bludgeon them for that occasional mistake, and encourage self-review.
Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 18:54, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
Discussion
- Depends on whose version of the truth you want to believe. What's civil? What's incivil? Depends on your background, beliefs, and culture.PumpkinSky talk 19:19, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
- This is the first time the word "civil" is used on this page, so at a loss as to what you mean. I'm trying to start conversations in singular, digestible chunks. Of course, I can't control where the discussion goes, but I try to keep it focused on ideas for solutions, and put different problems in their own full thread, all on the same page. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 19:57, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
- I like the idea in theory, but in practice how do you handle those admins who are not amiable to self-review? Admins are human, too, which means there will always be those who do not feel that they make mistakes or bad calls. Intothatdarkness (talk) 16:05, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
Reasons editors leave
Not sure how these were chosen, but from my personal experience pov editing and personal attacks are as important as the 4 listed (I'd list the top 3 as edit warring, pov editors and personal attacks, but obviously other people's experiences differ). Dougweller (talk) 19:51, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
- updated. You are free up update it yourself, as well. The project is only a few hours old, so watch out for wet paint and all that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 19:54, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. I don't think that "Suspicion of admin cliques" is a major, or even minor reason. And I hope this isn't going to be part Admin bashing. I think Admins make mistakes, but I think the main thing is lack of Admin action in fields such as pov editing and editwarring. Various reasons for that ranging from lack of knowledge/stamina etc, lack of community support at times, etc. Boredom is another reason people leave, or an interest only in adding one article. An incorrect understanding of Wikipedia is another - people start to edit thinking it's like writing an essay or a place where they can tell the world something new, and find that they are expected to add references from reliable sources. Dougweller (talk) 06:49, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
- There are a number of people who do think that admins are part of the problem, and the perception alone is part of the problem. Often problems are due to a lack of clarity in policies, leading to inconsistent results from admins, meaning we need to clarify the policies. As I stated early on, my goal is to get other admins like myself to join and bridge some of the misunderstandings. This should be a solutions based project, and bashing wouldn't be tolerated. I've tried to make that clear from the start, this is about positive changes, not a place to point fingers. At the same time, you have to acknowledge that frustration with admins IS one problem and where we can find solutions, like better engagement and policy clarification, we should seek to do so. The goal of retaining quality editors should encompass all methods toward this goal. Seeking out quality editors that never get noticed and finding ways to reward them is another, as encouragement is a beneficial tool in retention. And there are hundreds of great ideas out there that I've never thought of, but at least we can have one place to discuss them. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 12:18, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. I don't think that "Suspicion of admin cliques" is a major, or even minor reason. And I hope this isn't going to be part Admin bashing. I think Admins make mistakes, but I think the main thing is lack of Admin action in fields such as pov editing and editwarring. Various reasons for that ranging from lack of knowledge/stamina etc, lack of community support at times, etc. Boredom is another reason people leave, or an interest only in adding one article. An incorrect understanding of Wikipedia is another - people start to edit thinking it's like writing an essay or a place where they can tell the world something new, and find that they are expected to add references from reliable sources. Dougweller (talk) 06:49, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
- To add one more point about admins: I'm new enough that I've screwed up a few blocks and perhaps made the problem worse for an individual or two. Not bad blocks per se, but I've removed talk page access through ignorance or accidentally at SPI and those are problems as well. It doesn't make me evil, but it was mistakes that I would like to see the next new admin not make if we can find ways to add clarity to the new admin training, etc. From my experience, most admin "mistakes" are due to simple mistakes or not understanding policy on a point, not malice. I'm only 2 months into the mop and often find it frustrating that when I do have to block, it isn't always clear what is and isn't appropriate. These can lead to frustration that I would like to see reduced, just based on my own experiences. I don't want to be bashed either, but it would be nice to be better educated. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 12:32, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
- I hope this discussion is not merely for admins but open to all contributors. If it is for admins only, feel free to remove my edits. Reasons why editors leave :
- 1. Administrator problems (some, not all) : abuse of powers, rudeness especially in edit summaries and talk pages, assuming bad faith, revenge edits, threats (e.g. do as I say or I will block you), abuses of blocking policy, etc.
- Solution : Better vetting and examining past history especially how they deal with people they have had problems with before being made administrators. The editing practices of current admins should also be evaluated and those who breach Wiki policies should have actions taken against them. Action must be seen to be taken against those admins who abuse their power. Normal editors sometimes feel like they have to "pussy foot" around admins even when they are in the right. This must be erradicated in order to make Wiki more inclusive and equal place.
- 2. Deletion of new articles especially those contributed by new editor.
- Solution : Wiki needs these new editors. They must have been passionate about the subject to write about it. Nominating for the deletion of their article they had spend a long time writing is disheartening and discourages them. Wiki has too many rules and these editors may not be familiar with them. From my experience as an inclusionist, I find that in many cases, had the new page patroller done proper checks they could have established the notability of the subject and add the necessary sources themselves rather than adding a AFD/Prod tag. The problems, defensiveness and negativity in the AFD talk page could have been avoided had the patroller done that followed by a quick message on the editor's talk page of how to do things next time. This encourages and educates. Once we loose new editors we loose them. It will take a special editor not let that affect them and continue editing. Experienced editors know that they should not take the deletion of their articles personally. However, we should not expect new editors to feel the same way. All they see is that the article they spent a long time writing is not considred important enough to be included in Wiki. We should be very careful.
- 3. Also linked to the above, do not be too quick to assume lack of notability just because you cannot find much on the internet. A small typo in the name or a variation of spelling e.g. French, English or the local language may explain for this. A short message to the editor's talk page to verify the spelling or add all the possible variations can sometimes establish notability. Assume good faith. Tamsier (talk) 14:03, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
- 1. Administrator problems (some, not all) : abuse of powers, rudeness especially in edit summaries and talk pages, assuming bad faith, revenge edits, threats (e.g. do as I say or I will block you), abuses of blocking policy, etc.
- Thanks Tamsier for your useful contributions. I especially appreciate your suggestions in regard to new editors. It might be possible to set up a list of experienced editors willing to assist newcomers as mentors. They could be supported by a facility providing access to recently deleted articles from newcomers (or those threated with deletion) allowing them to review the articles and the reasons for deletion so they can offer assistance. Maybe there should also be safeguards against immediate deletion of articles from new editors for at least an initial period of a month or so. Bots could also be reprogrammed so as not to pick up newcomers' articles such as biographries for deletion just because they do not contain references. On notability, I also agree that many of Wikipedia's checks are suspect. They do not take account of the vast amount of published literature which is not accessible on the internet or of newspaper or journal articles which are purposely restricted to paying customers. Nor do they appear to take sufficient account of Wikipedia articles on the same topic in other languages. What we need is a safeguard mechanism for newcomers which is just as efficient as the methods now in use for negative criticism and deletion. - Ipigott (talk) 16:35, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
A few comments.
- 1) First, it would be very useful, if possible, to identify editors who are primarily or exclusively POV pushers of some sort or other. Regarding content about such things as religions and/or other "belief systems", like maybe communism, atheism, socialism, political liberalism, conservatism, and maybe specific aspects of the paranormal in general, and such. I think we have now and have had a number of editors, including some who have been around a long time and have gained some respect from their colleagues, who are, basically, here to push their POV. Such editors when forced to face their POV pushing will, at least sometimes, blame other editors for their situation and leaving, accusing those other editors of being POV pushers and forcing them to leave as a result. This allows them to see themselves, and perhaps have others who seek to misuse wikipedia in the same way see them, as being "victims" of other established POV pushers. I have seen several editors falsely accuse others of POV pushing, and in some cases retire, at least in the short term, from editing on such bases. This misrepresentation of some other editors, including admins, probably helps contribute to the perception of evil admins. Perhaps establishing some sort of more active, perhaps informal if necessary, admin conduct review board where such retiring POV pushers' claims could be examined, and, if found baseless, rejected, might contribute to the general level of respect for admins who haven't engaged in misconduct.
- 2) A greater emphasis on creating "child" articles, like perhaps on books and individual theories, would probably be very useful. Again, working primarily in religion, paranormal, and other related fields, there are a number of theories out there which are certainly notable enough for inclusion in wikipedia as individual articles, but whose acceptance or respect in the relevant fields is perhaps such that they are not significant enough to be included in the main articles on the topics, where supporters of such theories seem to very often consider to be the first and primary place material about those theories should be placed. This seems to be particularly common in hotly debated issues about controversial topics. I don't know how to address this, but I think if we could help promote creation of these child articles in such topics, that might help a lot.
- 3) Again, in religion and other articles about belief systems, paranormal, and the like, there is and I think has been for some time a disagreement about which sources are considered most reliable. Does perhaps the most recent book on a given topic count as the most reliable, even if it is clearly presenting a fringe or minority opinion, as many books do? Bart Ehrman said in I think Newsweek? that the way many academics quickly establish themselves today is by at a comparatively early stage writing some book or paper promoting a plausible, if not likely, sensationalist idea. On that basis, they get invited to several talk shows, TV documentaries, and the like, and their names become known. Unfortunately, many people who know little if anything about a topic can be predisposed to believe in some sort of "conspiracy" about it, and accept these often ludicrous ideas right away. The DaVinci Code comes to mind here. Providing better, clearer, indications of how to deal with such questions, and where to find the more respected and accepted sources, would help a lot.
- 4) Finally, one specific idea which maybe could be directly acted upon. I think we should very much encourage all editors to enable e-mail. Many editors of some standing will retire when they are faced with POV pushing or other misconduct which for whatever reason they personally cannot effectively work against. As a "last chance," I would hope to see some sort of way that after announcing a retirement a editor known to them, whom they might respect, could contact them and see if they could somehow deal with the issue which caused the retirement.
- 5) Finally, and he is shutting up now, I would like to see maybe, perhaps even in the welcoming templates and new editor pages, some sort of clear indication of some kind of "reunion" period once or twice a year. I'm thinking here of college students and the like who write articles because, basically, they wrote them in school and wanted to share the results of their research with others. If they had e-mail established, and they kept it active, we could notify them of the times of such "reunions" in their topic areas, and maybe, if nothing else, get them back for a short time once or twice a year to help improve the articles they already developed and/or work on related articles. John Carter (talk) 16:40, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
Increase retention of quality, experienced editors at Wikipedia
I certainly welcome this initiative which I interpret as an attempt to keep good people involved in Wikipedia. I think, however, that it is equally important to make sure that reasonably new editors who show interest and ability are given the encouragement they need to continue working with us. I constantly see new editors frightened away by all the templates plastered on their initial attempts or indeed by good contributions being deleted on technical grounds (e.g. lack of properly presented references). Wikipedia's many bots are often play a part here. Now that young people are increasingly happy to spend their time on Facebook or Geocaching where they are likely to get immediate and usually positive responses to their contributions, Wikipedia by contrast often unintentionally creates a feeling of mistrust, incompetence and even hostility. Even for some of the more experienced editors, this can lead to disputes which in turn provide grounds for blocking and then socking.
I would therefore suggest first that we change this goal to the more inclusive "Increase retention of competent editors at Wikipedia". Secondly, rather than becoming bogged down in emotional reactions, that we attempt to base our work as far as possible on an objective, statistical analysis of who drops out, after what period of involvement and, if possible, for what particular reason(s). We will of course need to call on the assistance of those who can develop templates able to detect the pertinent data and symptoms (unless such tools already exist?). But for the time being, and before I make any changes to the project page, I would be interested to hear whether there is any interest in following this approach. - Ipigott (talk) 09:35, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
- I hesitate to use "competent" only because that is a bit subjective, but that is the goal, to keep good people here and not scare away new users. Personally, I try using hand written warnings or notifications rather than templates in all but the most obvious cases for that reason. And I agree 100% that getting bogged with emotions should be avoided. We do need to objectively seek out the problems and we should calmly and steadily work toward real world solutions, not just complain about them. Sounds like you are right on target with the objectives. I like the idea of the project being a broad one, dealing with anything that is related to maintaining quality editors here, from rewards to removing abuses, and everything in between. Making changes to the front page is encouraged, the project is less than a day old. I just haven't seen a centralized project to deal with retention, a place to discuss policies before attempting an RFC (which often fail due to a lack of planning), and to learn what the real problems are so they can be addressed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 12:06, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
I used "competent" to cover "quality, experienced" but on this basis, unless anyone disagrees, I think we should go for Increase retention of editors at Wikipedia. We could perhaps also include collaboration with Wikimedia initiatives such as their strategy for participation and specifically their participation priorities. They also have a recent page titled Growth and Contribution Program/FAQ which may be of interest. It may be a good idea to keep these initiatives informed of this new Wikipedia project. - Ipigott (talk) 13:16, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
Equality in Enforcement?
One issue that seems to come up with some regularity, and does resonate with me when I consider my participation here, is the question of equal enforcement of policy. The perception that admins (and possibly some established users and/or skilled newcomers who know how to work AGF) can "get away" with behavior that would see lesser contributors blocked or admonished is a powerful thing. Badgering seems to be more acceptable than standing up to those who badger, to give another possible example. I've been on the fringes of a couple those things, and seeing the level of passive-aggressive bullying that can slide under the radar is disappointing. Intothatdarkness (talk) 15:59, 2 July 2012 (UTC)