→Leftist?: R |
Rockpocket (talk | contribs) →First Northern European team to win European cup.: Good faith works two ways. |
||
Line 296: | Line 296: | ||
::::::::::Consensus was established when noone objected to the wording for months. While consensus can change, there is currently no such consensus to include 'Northern European' or anything similar. --[[User:Hippo43|hippo43]] ([[User talk:Hippo43|talk]]) 00:47, 31 October 2009 (UTC) |
::::::::::Consensus was established when noone objected to the wording for months. While consensus can change, there is currently no such consensus to include 'Northern European' or anything similar. --[[User:Hippo43|hippo43]] ([[User talk:Hippo43|talk]]) 00:47, 31 October 2009 (UTC) |
||
::::::::::: Indeed. There may be no consensus for the current version, but there is even less of a consensus for changing it to "Northern European" either. I'm counting 3 editors who are pro-Northern European and 4 or 5 who are pro-Britain/Scotland/UK. Which leaves us with the option of coming up with some sort of wording that will achieve consensus. Of course, that presumes a desire to work with people whose arguments consist of rubbishing the opinion of those who disagree with them. Good faith works two ways. [[User:Rockpocket|<font color="green">Rockpock</font>]]<font color="black">e</font>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<font color="green">t</font>]] 01:25, 31 October 2009 (UTC) |
|||
== Leftist? == |
== Leftist? == |
Revision as of 01:25, 31 October 2009
Football C‑class High‑importance | ||||||||||
|
Scotland C‑class | ||||||||||
|
Software: Computing Unassessed | |||||||||||||
|
Archives |
---|
Year Founded
Celtic were founded in November 1887, not '88. Somebody please change it, as I do not have editing rights.
its true that celtic were founded on the 6 of november 1887, but as the the clubs first season wasn't untill 1888. a football clubs founding year is most often the year of their first competitive season —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.22.76.14 (talk) 18:12, 30 September 2009 (UTC) Yes, but in the "formation and History" section it claims Celtic were formed on 6 November 1888, rather than '87. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quindie (talk • contribs) 19:13, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- yeh its when they play first competitive games, its already explained(Monkeymanman (talk) 22:48, 24 October 2009 (UTC))
- why does it say 1888 on the badge and all club related items?(Monkeymanman (talk) 00:18, 26 October 2009 (UTC))
- Because their first official game was in 1888. [1] Jack forbes (talk) 00:51, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- then i would think thats the year that they are founded in, lots of teams have played games and been an org before their official founding date but it is not until their official first match like you said, you are confusing the issue by having a diff date on the first page, if someone wants to read more about when they first met as celtic i.e. in 1887 then there is the club history page(Monkeymanman (talk) 01:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC))
- I'm not confusing anyone as it wasn't I who changed it to 1887. The confusion is that it was quite a while from the "founding" to their first game. I'd love to know what they were doing in between. The Celtic website does say that they were formally constituted in 1887 (why it says constituted and not founded I don't know). Hey, I'm a Celtic supporter and I've always been confused over the 1888-1988 centenary year. There must be an explanation out there somewhere, but I don't have it. Jack forbes (talk) 01:31, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- I've asked for some advice on this at Talk:Association football. Jack forbes (talk) 01:46, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- then i would think thats the year that they are founded in, lots of teams have played games and been an org before their official founding date but it is not until their official first match like you said, you are confusing the issue by having a diff date on the first page, if someone wants to read more about when they first met as celtic i.e. in 1887 then there is the club history page(Monkeymanman (talk) 01:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC))
- Because their first official game was in 1888. [1] Jack forbes (talk) 00:51, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- why does it say 1888 on the badge and all club related items?(Monkeymanman (talk) 00:18, 26 October 2009 (UTC))
- The problem is that we're trying to make the info fit the infobox. The details are clear - the club was constituted in 1887, and played its first game in 1888 - yet we are trying to make one of these dates fit the undefined term 'Founded'. We have to provide info for the benfit of readers - if they want to know when the club was constituted, it was 1887; if they want to know when the club played its first game, it was 1888. I've changed the infobox to reflect this. --hippo43 (talk) 10:44, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Hippo has moved my request for advice on this to the correct place, the football project talk page, WT:FOOTY#Celtic_F.C._founded_1887_or_1888. Jack forbes (talk) 11:13, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
"The Bumblebee"
The new Celtic away strip will be released on the 20th of July. Do we have an illuminous yellow, to display the ne kit? [[70.90.198.172 (talk) 01:01, 18 July 2009 (UTC)]]
The Womens Team
Celtic L.F.C have been playing now 4 a couple of years and are performing well and deserve to be mentioned to this page!
!?
All right, what's going on here!? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fry2000 (talk • contribs) 12:30, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Oh. That's that cleared up then.
regarding the club physio entries..has gavin mccarthy left and when did ross harvie and the other physio join the club? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.239.159.5 (talk) 12:04, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Greatest ever team - diagram
Anyone know why this diagram has 'SIMPSON' in yellow and 'JOHNSTONE' in gold? hippo43 (talk) 07:22, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- I'm presuming Simpsons is yellow due to the colour of his jersy. Why Jinky's is gold I don't know. Jack forbes (talk) 21:14, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
- I've changed them to white. If there is a very good reason for the different colours I'm sure someone will explain it. Jack forbes (talk) 21:19, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
- Johnstone was almost certainly depicted in gold because the supporters' vote named him as the greatest player in the club's history as well as a member of the greatest ever team. Simpson, being the goalkeeper, would wear a different coloured jersey to distinguish him from the outfield players. Henry Clarson (talk) 20:26, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Largest foreign travelling support at the time
I wonder if this statement is actually correct. We know that Rangers took more fans to Manchester for their UEFA cup final. Where they a foreign travelling support? Since when has Manchester been deemed a city in a foreign land? If the Rangers article mentions that they took the largest away support for a European game that is quite correct. If we say that Celtic have the record for the largest support to a foreign country that is also correct. Why does it say at the time? It is still true. Jack forbes (talk) 15:55, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, if you look, none of the cites actually confirm what is said. We can say there was 80,000, but whether this is the largest travelling or foreign support, either then or since, is not mentioned. So perhaps the entire sentence needs to be reworded, unless someone has a reputable source that can confirm it? --Escape Orbit (Talk) 17:58, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
- Reference added. I agree with your first point above, there must be a more elegant way of putting this. However we would probably need a recent source to say "largest foreign travelling support" or similar, or it would be original research to suppose that Manchester does not count as a foreign venue. ----hippo43 (talk) 18:32, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
- Would it be original research to say that Manchester does not count as a foreign venue? Rather, I would think it would be original research to say it is a foreign venue and would need a source to confirm just that. Jack forbes (talk) 18:55, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
- Very good point. I had assumed there would be sources 'confirming' the Rangers fans' record because I seem to have heard it so often, but I struggled to find one with a quick Google search. maybe one will turn up. --hippo43 (talk) 20:41, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
- Unfortunately other events in Manchester rather masked any chance of this being noted or publicised. I've looked before without any success. I also suspect that the claims that a proportion of those who turned up were not supporters, but trouble-makers, also makes it complicated. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 23:41, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
- I propose to remove the word 'at the time' from the above sentence. As I said, whether or not Rangers had a larger following in Manchester, there is no source to say it was a foreign travelling support. Jack forbes (talk) 16:01, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
- Unfortunately other events in Manchester rather masked any chance of this being noted or publicised. I've looked before without any success. I also suspect that the claims that a proportion of those who turned up were not supporters, but trouble-makers, also makes it complicated. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 23:41, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
- Very good point. I had assumed there would be sources 'confirming' the Rangers fans' record because I seem to have heard it so often, but I struggled to find one with a quick Google search. maybe one will turn up. --hippo43 (talk) 20:41, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
- Would it be original research to say that Manchester does not count as a foreign venue? Rather, I would think it would be original research to say it is a foreign venue and would need a source to confirm just that. Jack forbes (talk) 18:55, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
- Reference added. I agree with your first point above, there must be a more elegant way of putting this. However we would probably need a recent source to say "largest foreign travelling support" or similar, or it would be original research to suppose that Manchester does not count as a foreign venue. ----hippo43 (talk) 18:32, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
You've got this the wrong way around. "At the time" is essentially correct, what needs to be removed is 'foreign', as there is absolutely nothing in the cites that says this. The cite states that it was, at the time, "the largest travelling support to have assembled for a single game".
Any concern about whether Manchester is "foreign" to Glasgow is irrelevant, as it's not a specification that UEFA used. I suspect this additional definition was added in an attempt to prevent it being "trumped" by the Rangers figure. (It can't be a coincidence that it appeared after the Rangers UEFA final.) It may remain accurate, depending on how you want to define 'foreign', which is a POV, but basically it is lovely example of subtle original synthesis. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 17:41, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
- Your suspicions have no relevence. Since when have we needed a cite to say that Sevilla is foreign? You say yourself it is accurate. Whether or not you think it is just trying to trump Rangers, the fact it is true trumps your argument. Jack forbes (talk) 17:57, 25 February 2009 (UTC)PS: The cite does not mention 'at the time'. Jack forbes (talk) 18:05, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
- You can't go creating new definitions of records that are not in the cite, while simultaneously discounting the Rangers figure until it is cited with the same newly invented definition. Particularly when the new definition is open to interpretation and opinion (i.e. what counts as foreign?).
- But I'm not asking for a cite that says Seville is foreign, I'm saying that this is classic original synthesis. It is adding one fact (Seville is foreign) to another fact (a record 80,000 travelling supporters were at the game in Seville) to construct a new fact that advances a position; (a record 80,000 foreign travelling supporters were at the game). And that's even before we consider whether Manchester is foreign. It's exactly because of this matter of debate that Wikipedia insists editors don't go constructing facts in this manner. No-one here should be deciding if either set of supporters are "foreign travelling" or not.
- And of course it doesn't say 'at the time'. Everything written is 'at the time'. If you don't like the phrase then how would you rephrase it?
- And anyway, all this is doing is diminishing the significance of the record. Is it not more impressive that the 80,000 was greater than even any domestic fixture? --Escape Orbit (Talk) 18:48, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
- Agree with Escape Orbit. Although Seville is 'foreign' to Celtic, without doubt, we can only go with what the source says. It says "largest travelling support to have assembled for a single game" so that's what the article should say. If there is a more recent reliable source which says the same thing about another team's fans since, then the sentence should be changed to say "at the time". --hippo43 (talk) 19:03, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
- Fair enough. We should go with what the cite actually says. Jack forbes (talk) 19:09, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks. I've been looking for a better cite, maybe one that actually has official supporter numbers for the two finals, without success. Best I've got so far is this, which is ok, but not exactly what I'm looking for. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 22:28, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
- Fair enough. We should go with what the cite actually says. Jack forbes (talk) 19:09, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
- Agree with Escape Orbit. Although Seville is 'foreign' to Celtic, without doubt, we can only go with what the source says. It says "largest travelling support to have assembled for a single game" so that's what the article should say. If there is a more recent reliable source which says the same thing about another team's fans since, then the sentence should be changed to say "at the time". --hippo43 (talk) 19:03, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Recent seasons
I've removed the Recent Seasons section as is doesn't comply with the policy of avoiding recentism on Wikipedia. However, there ought to be a longer history section on this page, so long as it can be kept nicely condensed and equally weighted in the impotance of the different periods of the club's history. Dancarney (talk) 15:23, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
- I've reverted this. I agree there may be too much, but I can't see that WP:RECENT supports removing it all without discussion. Perhaps you could edit it, tag it, or ask for suggestions on this talk page? --hippo43 (talk) 19:15, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
European Cup Home Country Players
I have removed from the lead and Records section the claim that Celtic were the first club to win with players all from the team's home country. As an IP editor pointed out, this is demonstratively incorrect;
What the cites in the lead also say is that Celtic were the first team with entirely "home grown" players to win the cup, nothing is said about "home country". I imagine by this they mean all the players came through their youth system, rather than being transferred in, but can't be sure. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 19:39, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- I think what makes the "home grown" players part to be mentioned so often is that all of the players were born within a 30-mile radius of Celtic Park and this is 30-miles because one player was born in Ayrshire. It is more the radius aspect and not the "home grown" which is the important part which I think has been lost over the years to the "home grown" label.
Winning every competition
The article states that Celtic won every competition they entered in the 1967 season: the Scottish League Championship, the Scottish Cup, the Scottish League Cup, the European Cup and the Glasgow Cup, and the article also states that they are the only team to achieve this. It's not clear what they are the only team to achieve. I think the implication is that they are the only team ever to have won all competitions they entered in a given season but this would not be factually correct. Can someone explain what achievement is being claimed, and suggest an altertative description that is unambiguous? --Bab Nyc (talk) 03:48, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
The achievement is that every tournament Celtic entered that particular season they won - 1 European (UEFA) trophy, 3 Scottish FA trophies and 1 Glasgow FA trophy (then the First Teams of Glasgow football Clubs competed in the Glasgow Cup now it is the youth teams which participate in this tournament). They were the first and possibly the only club who have completed a quadruple of major trophies in the one season and the only club to win a quintuple (if that is the correct grammar).
- There are examples of other teams winning every tournament they entered. In fact, Rangers did it prior to Celtic (albeit there was no European competition back then). I think it needs to be made clear that Celtic are the first to win a European trophy and all domestic competitions in the same season (if a reference can be found backing it up).--Bab Nyc (talk) 11:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
red star belgrade have acheived the same feat —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.26.11.108 (talk) 00:56, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Red Star never won their National Cup in 1991 so in fact they never won every trophy in the same season. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.254.234.251 (talk) 12:12, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
European Competition
Teams have runners in in European competitions listed in their honours therefore I think Celtic should have the 1970 European Cup Final and The 2003 UEFA Cup Final listed too —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.254.234.251 (talk) 12:13, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
The sole remening?
"and the sole remaining Seville UEFA cup finalist Bobo Balde also left the club as their contracts had not been renewed". Couldn't Maloney be included even if he left then came back? --81.103.46.138 (talk) 20:48, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Old Firm and Sectarianism
This section should be expanded to give a better indication of sectarianism involving Celtic fans and examples from the past. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Monkeymanman (talk • contribs) 18:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
WHY??? what does it matter what one club does and does not do. Are you going to have things like "I was on a bus and overheard one fan saying to another....."
- There should be a full story good and bad and it is not only meant to be written by people with one sided views (i.e. a fan who only wants one viewpoint expressed and everything else is censored) it should be all fully covered. (Monkeymanman (talk) 21:29, 29 September 2009 (UTC))
The section should include in detail that although celtic have tried their best some of their own fans still harbour sectarian and racist values against the United Kingdon, brittish armed forces and have a history of supporting terrorist organisations namely the IRA. This is very important for a neutral to understand as they may be unaware of this (Monkeymanman (talk) 16:10, 30 September 2009 (UTC))
If you want some references regarding sectarianism / racism involving celtic fans then i shall supply some, the Northern ireland sports minister regarding the IRA songs at celtic games [2], celtic supporters trust chief who spoke in faviour of IRA songs at celtic games [3], Celtic fans disrupt minutes silence for 9/11 victems with IRA chants [4], celtic chief executive embarrassed by ira chants at game [5], mark walters debut at celtic park he was subjected to racist abuse / bananas thrown at him and monkey chants from celtic fans Andrew Smith - The Scotsman (December 2007). "A Black Day For Scottish Football". The Scotsman. Retrieved 6 July 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Monkeymanman (talk • contribs) 17:43, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
- Monkey, I removed your partisan edits to this section. Not only did you editorialise significantly beyond what the sources you supplied actually said, you chose to cherry-pick material based on the clear POV you have shown on this discussion page and elsewhere. Per WP:UNDUE, I removed your effort. If you have thoughts on how best to reflect the numerous incidents where Celtic and its fans have been the victims of sectarian abuse and violence, in proportion to how these issues have been reported in reliable sources, I'd like to hear them. --hippo43 (talk) 12:10, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- I am dissapointed that you deleted that post as i felt it was very low key, to the point, briefly stated what the articles said in the public media and it was well referenced with high profile papers including the bbc. I did not over editorialise what was said in the articles but actually edited a lot less than could have been. A clear POV would be what I think correct? I was simply stating a general public perception in the media using good references, none of which were my own making and none were from non moderated websites. I have tried to get opinions on how best to show what sectarianism involving Celtic fans has / does involve but have been unsuccessful as people seem reluctant to talk / add to the article. This I believe is censorship. The article should show both sides and not just the one that you want to hear. (Monkeymanman (talk) 12:34, 2 October 2009 (UTC))
- I can't speak for others, but I have no interest in censoring the article. I would be happy to see it include balanced, proportionate coverage of sectarianism as it relates to Celtic and its fans. In keeping with what is published by reliable sources, this would undoubtedly include much more on sectarianism perpetrated against, rather than by, the club and its fans. Your attempt included precisely nothing on the sectarian abuse, discrimination and violence directed towards Celtic. Can you explain this?
- The "general public perception" you tried to get across was not supported by the sources you supplied. They did not describe the IRA as "a known sectarian terrorist organisation" - you did. They did not state that some Celtic fans "have traditionally supported" the IRA, and definitely did not say that they "continue to do so" - you did. Your version of the Northern Ireland sports minister's complaint omitted that this occurred in the wake of the outrage around the famine song being sung at Celtic fans. Aside from the obvious explanation, that you are cherry-picking sources to push an unpleasant and unencyclopedic agenda, can you explain your unbalanced edits on this issue? --hippo43 (talk) 13:03, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- The general public perception would be that the IRA are a ‘a known sectarian terrorist organisation’[1] ‘Having traditionally supported the IRA’, would that not mean having repeated instances of IRA songs / propaganda over many years. ‘Continue to do so’, would the evidence not say that IRA songs have been heard / propaganda seen in recent times. I did omit that the Northern Ireland sports minister had been subjected to sectarian abuse on a ferry by Celtic fans 1 year prior to any ‘famine song’. As you have already admitted you have edited the rangers fc page, can you explain the very unbalanced edits on that one regarding sectarianism? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Monkeymanman (talk • contribs) 15:59, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- What you are describing here is original synthesis. You are combining sources in order to advance a point and the whole thing is opinion driven and undue weight. I am in agreement with hippo43. Your discussions on talk pages suggest that your contribution is pointy, and has more to do with settling an imbalance you perceive on another article than with improving this article.
- Unfortunately, experience shows that parties on both sides of this tedious and petty rivalry will argue the supposed crimes of the other until the end of time. But Wikipedia is not the place it. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 16:36, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- So, Monkey, no explanation for your POV edits, unsurprisingly; just some stuff about "general public perception", which is in breach of WP:V.
- In brief, as this isn't the place to discuss other articles, my edits to the similar section on the Rangers article have focused on cases which involved the football club itself, as opposed to the few incidents you have pointed out here involving fans only. If you want to discuss this further, bring it up at the talk page for the Rangers article. -hippo43 (talk) 16:38, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- 'Wikipedia is not the place for it', i would be in agreement if both pages were like the celtic one where a general description of the situation is described and the fundamental basis of it is the good steps that BOTH clubs have made for the better rather than one sided affairs. That would end any 'tedious and petty rivalry' whereby each side 'will argue the supposed crimes of the other until the end of time.' (Monkeymanman (talk) 16:48, 2 October 2009 (UTC))
- So the sources are not reliable now? (Monkeymanman (talk) 17:15, 2 October 2009 (UTC))
- Again, not exactly addressing the real issue. The sources are reliable, your analysis of them not so much. My point was that the material at that page is about incidents which involved the club, not just the fans. There are a substantial number of incidents there, and your idea of a common generic section would be an unencyclopedic whitewash. If you want to discuss that article, this is not the place. --hippo43 (talk) 17:18, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- So anything to do with fans is nothing to do with the club is that what your saying? I was told different on a certain other page. (Monkeymanman (talk) 17:29, 2 October 2009 (UTC))
- No, that's not what I said. However, it seems obvious to me that if the club is sanctioned by UEFA for sectarian chanting, for example, that is more relevant to the subject of the article than a story about some fans singing IRA songs. Look at the incidents mentioned in the Rangers article - the club's sectarian signing policy, the club's vice-chairman being forced out for singing sectarian songs, the club being roundly criticised for cashing in on the sectarian tendencies of some of their fans by selling an orange strip, the club refusing to condemn the famine song, the club being sanctioned twice by UEFA for sectarian singing - all reliably sourced. So far, noone has suggested anything similar should be added to this article.
- NPOV rules, thats fine by me, but you contradict yourself on that a bit. Anyway, relavence is part of NPOV is it not.(Monkeymanman (talk) 18:54, 3 October 2009 (UTC))
- You contradict yourself because although you say on this page one thing about 'weight' 'POV' 'Pointy argument', on other pages people have acted in the manner that you have been arguing against and you say nothing like that. A relavent topic would be to the opinion of the person who reads it which is their own point of view.(Monkeymanman (talk) 19:53, 3 October 2009 (UTC))
- I made that contribution or tried to because i have that opinion and i felt it could have improved the article and cleared some things up. But now i realise that if you have an opinion then you are not allowed to be an editor on wikipedia, unless that opinion is the same as everyone else on the editing side of the page.(Monkeymanman (talk) 18:34, 5 October 2009 (UTC))
- Your opinion is not relevant if it is completely at odds with the coverage of an issue by reliable sources. You say that you wanted to improve the article, yet it seems that you only wanted to add material which denigrated Celtic's fans. Can you explain why you added this material but failed to add a single sentence about the numerous well-reported incidents where Celtic fans have been abused, attacked and even killed for sectarian reasons? In what way did this "clear some things up"? --hippo43 (talk) 21:26, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
- Your opinion is not relevant if it does not go along with what the opinion of the article is. Reported incidents that you refer to although may envolve celtic fans, but anything outwith a stadium / stadium environment is outwith club control (as stated by uefa) and should not be reflected upon in a clubs article.(Monkeymanman (talk) 22:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC))
- What does UEFA have to do with this article? We are discussing Celtic FC and that subject includes its fans - your opinion is not reflected in policy here. You were happy enough to include stuff which happened "outwith a stadium environment"
when you made this edit. Your lack of consistency on this is unreal, yet strangely predictable. I don't want to sound repetitive, but can you explain why you added nothing on the sectarianism directed towards Celtic and its fans? Or should I just draw my own conclusions? --hippo43 (talk) 22:12, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
- The reason why i had my edit weighted in one direction i.e the way you dislike for some reason, was that i thought a moderator, sorry, editor would have just copy and pasted the sectarianism section from another article into this one afterwards. If you want to discuss where the football club and instances outwith a football clubs control change then uefa have set those boundaries already.(Monkeymanman (talk) 22:36, 5 October 2009 (UTC))
- Monkey,I've no idea why you keep mentioning what you think UEFA have decided. Their view about what they can hold clubs accountable for is entirely irrelevant to our discussions about content. Try reading the relevant policies, or take a quick look through most football clubs' articles - there is a ton of stuff about things which have taken place outside the stadium. --hippo43 (talk)
Celtic FC and European Sanctions
There is no reference to the fact that in the past few years celtic have had serious crowd trouble at parkhead and have been sanctioned by uefa because of this. There should be a new section detailing the facts so that an outside observer would be aware of this. (Monkeymanman (talk) 19:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC))
There have been NO crowd disorder at Celtic Park in the past few years. Celtic have been fined by UEFA for fans encroaching the pitch.
Monkeymanman your 2 points are pointless and are invalid with regards to Celtic Football Club.
- Celtic football clubs article is about the club and the supporters come under that. Being fined by uefa for fans encroaching the pitch is serious and has happened on numerous occasions. There has also been an occasion where an opposition player was struck by a fan who ran onto the pitch and had to be strechered off. Not to mention a certain old fim game a few years ago when numerous fans ran onto the pitch to confront the referee, hitting him and opposition players with coins and confronting their own players.
I think these are very serious points that a neutral should know about. (Monkeymanman (talk) 21:35, 29 September 2009 (UTC))
- Monkey, on this point and the section above, we have to go with what reliable sources say. If there are reliable sources which give substantial coverage to these issues, they may be wirth including, in line with WP:NPOV, WP:NOR and WP:V. Do you know of any sources and can you give references? --hippo43 (talk) 03:11, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
- what about the idiot who ran on to the pitch at Ibrox Park when Rangers played Hapoel Tel-Aviv and handcuffed himself onto the goal post - that won't be mentioned in the Rangers pages and i think quite rightly so - the page and articles should only be about football fact and not about a minority of individuals who certainly do not represent the vast majority.
For your first point Hippo i gave you some references which you kindly deleted so that you could then make this accusation of WP:NPOV, WP:NOR and WP:V. You say i quote 'the page and articles should only be about football fact and not about a minority of individuals who certainly do not represent the vast majority' but as i was sternly told from all moderators on the rangers fc page that the fans come under the bracket of the club and it is important to note all points both good and bad never mind the fact that it might be a minority, so in that sense these points should be included in all fairness. (Monkeymanman (talk) 15:42, 30 September 2009 (UTC))
- There is no such thing as a moderator of an article. We are all just editors who must have a reliable source and reference to include important information on the article. There can also be discussions on whether that information is relevant. Jack forbes (talk) 15:46, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
- Fan behaviour within their own stadium is important to a neutral who may not be aware that celtic had been sanctioned for the acts that i mentioned (Monkeymanman (talk) 16:05, 30 September 2009 (UTC))
- Monkey, I have contributed to both articles you are discussing and my stance is the same on both - we need to reflect what appears in reliable sources, in proportion to its coverage. In this case, I don't think there has been much coverage of Celtic and European sanctions as a topic, except in covering a few specific instances (similar to many clubs) so I don't see any need for such a section here. Perhaps a short mention of specific cases in the History of Celtic FC article. If you want to discuss other articles, this isn't the place.
Hi there, I was thinking about working on Malky's article, and hopefully take it to at least GA. I was wondering if anyone could help me out with his Celtic days, or give me a nod in the right direction with sources I could possibly use? Thanks, WFCforLife (talk) 16:08, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
First Northern European team to win European cup.
Ok, I'll start it off. First off, is it more notable that they were the first northern European team to win it or first British team? Or both perhaps? Jack forbes (talk) 17:48, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- Surely if they are the first northern European team then it follows that they are the first British team?! Pretty straightforward I think, unless one specifically wants to stress the Britishness of Celtic for emotional reasons. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:50, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with you that being the first northern European team to win the trophy negates the need to include Britain. Hippo believes the reference is not reliable enough. If that's the case is there a more reliable reference out there? Jack forbes (talk) 17:57, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- I don't believe that has anything to do with it. Having read the previous threads, it looks like Hippo just wants "British" included, and is prepared to edit-war to achieve this. The edit-summary is a pretty unconvincing excuse to me. Or maybe I'm being cynical. At any rate, even if he does care I don't think reasonable editors should, as all one needs to do is look over the previous winners ... previous winners come from Italy and Iberia. Chasing references to prove something everyone already knows is a game unbefitting of intelligent humans. :) @ Hippo, please see WP:Consensus can change. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yep, I too believe searching for a reference for something so obvious is not needed. I have no idea though (and wouldn't like to guess) why Hippo prefers "first British club". Jack forbes (talk) 18:14, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- I don't believe that has anything to do with it. Having read the previous threads, it looks like Hippo just wants "British" included, and is prepared to edit-war to achieve this. The edit-summary is a pretty unconvincing excuse to me. Or maybe I'm being cynical. At any rate, even if he does care I don't think reasonable editors should, as all one needs to do is look over the previous winners ... previous winners come from Italy and Iberia. Chasing references to prove something everyone already knows is a game unbefitting of intelligent humans. :) @ Hippo, please see WP:Consensus can change. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- The crap ref is not an issue for me - I accept that it is true. However, the ref given was a copy of a previous version of this article! Reliable sources simply don't report that Celtic were the first Northern European team, because it doesn't matter to anyone. 'Northern European' is a strange phrase - where is Northern Europe? And so what? Celtic were only the fifth team to win the thing, and the first team from outwith Spain, Portugal and Italy to win it. They were also the first team not based in Madrid, Milan or Lisbon to win it. And the first/only Scottish team. And the first team who play in green...
- Previous consensus, after tedious discussion, was to include British, with more detail (since removed, but I'll put it back soon) in the history section. This is how reliable sources in English generally report it, so it seems a sensible choice to me. Particularly, on Celtic's own website [6] they say first "British (and non-Latin)", so I'd go with British, as 'non-Latin' isn't really an encyclopedic term. Deacon, you are the edit warrior in this case - you changed the text, then reverted my revert rather than discussing it, per WP:BRD. I'm well aware that consensus can change, but until it does, let's stick with the existing consensus version. --hippo43 (talk) 18:23, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- I actually haven't performed any reverts ... each time trying to accommodate yourself with adjustments. You have performed three and are one away from violating the WP:3RR. Are you seriously opening the idea of "Northern Europe" to question? Sorry for my lack of patience for bs just now, but unless anyone believes Iberia and Italy are in northern Europe (the north part of Europe), or Scotland is not, then this is just games. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why being the first British team to win it is any more important than the first Northern Europe team to win it. If we don't say first northern European team then why not just say Scottish team as the Scottish league has as much in common with any other league as they have with the Welsh or English leagues. Celtic don't represent Britain in football. Jack forbes (talk) 18:38, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- My concern with "Northern Europe" alone is it doesn't have a defined meaning that everyone can recognize and agree on (unlike "British" or "Scottish"). The point is not whether Italy or Iberia is in Northern Europe, the point is what countries were are including (excluding) in that statement (for example, will the reader know whether a German is considered Northern European.) Rockpocket 18:41, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- Previous consensus, after tedious discussion, was to include British, with more detail (since removed, but I'll put it back soon) in the history section. This is how reliable sources in English generally report it, so it seems a sensible choice to me. Particularly, on Celtic's own website [6] they say first "British (and non-Latin)", so I'd go with British, as 'non-Latin' isn't really an encyclopedic term. Deacon, you are the edit warrior in this case - you changed the text, then reverted my revert rather than discussing it, per WP:BRD. I'm well aware that consensus can change, but until it does, let's stick with the existing consensus version. --hippo43 (talk) 18:23, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- You carried on with this after being informed that there was a previous consensus reached via discussion, so your claims of "bs" and "games" on my part are horseshit.
- The reason, IMO, that 'British' is so widely used is because Scotland and England are part of the same British media market, so reliable sources in English (often based in England) make the point that Celtic were the first British team. Winning the European Cup before any team from the bigger English league is a significant achievement in that context. I agree with Rockpocket - Northern Europe is undefined - and it is not a term used in any reliable sources I have come across.
- The club itself uses 'British', so it's obviously significant to them. I'd have no objection to "first British team and only Scottish team" in the lead. In the later History section, there should be mention of this achievement, and in the past I supported something like "...which had previously been won only by Spanish, Italian and Portuguese clubs." I'd have no problem with a similar sentence in the History section now. --hippo43 (talk) 23:42, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- "first British team and only Scottish team" is the best solution, fully support that sort of wording. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- The club itself uses 'British', so it's obviously significant to them. I'd have no objection to "first British team and only Scottish team" in the lead. In the later History section, there should be mention of this achievement, and in the past I supported something like "...which had previously been won only by Spanish, Italian and Portuguese clubs." I'd have no problem with a similar sentence in the History section now. --hippo43 (talk) 23:42, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
This is a British team so its useful information to point out that they were the first British team to win it, that is far more clear than "Northern Europe" but i dont oppose that being included aswell. Although i must confess when you look at the flags many of their supporters wave youd be stunned to learn the team is from Great Britain. :) BritishWatcher (talk) 11:42, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- Hippo, if you want to highlight your misunderstandings of our policies, do it in your userspace. Rock, "Northern Europe" is not any more undefinable or ambiguous than "British", and is inclusive of the latter. That's where the argument starts and stops; the rest is just silliness, and I'm actually mildly insulted it was thought acceptable form of argument. ;) I mean ... "will the reader know whether a German is considered Northern European" ... seriously? With just "British", no-one will know if Northern Ireland is British, and it will still be up for question whether or not a Northern Irish side won it previously, nor will they know any more about the previous success or lack of it for German sides. This argument is a joke. And great, if people wanna be parochial and boast that Celtic beat the English by a year, northern Europe still does that. Trust me, no-one will doubt that England is in Northern Europe.
- Ah wikipedia .... I just love it. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:17, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- Just because you disagree, there is no need to disparage other's comments as "silliness" or "a joke". I did you the courtesy of taking your opinion seriously, I would expect the same. I'm happy to rectify your misunderstanding by stating that it is not a joke on my part; I hope that clarifies the issue for you. If you are concerned about the ambiguity of "Great Britain" vis Northern Ireland, we could easily resolve that by using the term "The United Kingdom". Rockpocket 20:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- Deacon, I'm with Rockpocket - your rudeness is not going to help build consensus. I'll assume you were having a bad day. If you think I've misunderstood a policy, please explain. 'British' is the adjective relating to the United Kingdom, and the pipe-linked form British is widely used on Wikipedia without confusion. --hippo43 (talk) 20:34, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think British produces any more confusion than northern European is contrived to. I'm sorry, I can't take this discussion seriously because I see ideology, tendentiousness, and conclusions chasing arguments ... I'll just leave it and see if anyone else chimes in. But Hippo, please refrain from calling the current version "consensus". Just because you are prepared to revert more than the numerous people who've objected to this line doesn't mean the line has consensus. It certainly doesn't have consensus.Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:43, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- Awesome. "Ideology, tendentiousness, and conclusions chasing arguments" based on what? A single, justified expression of an opinion. You are doing a great job of convincing me of the merits of your argument. Guess what, just because we disagree doesn't mean our motives differ. Someone of your experience should have read WP:AGF by now. Rockpocket 21:52, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- In my last edit, I said that your rudeness would not help build consensus - clearly implying that we are trying to move toward consensus. I also suggested above that 'first British and only Scottish team' would be worth including, which should suggest I'm open to changes, and a new consensus. Further, the wording was stable for some time before your recent changes - other editors' silence on the issue is proof of consensus, per WP:CON. I've no idea what ideology you see here. --hippo43 (talk) 21:10, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think British produces any more confusion than northern European is contrived to. I'm sorry, I can't take this discussion seriously because I see ideology, tendentiousness, and conclusions chasing arguments ... I'll just leave it and see if anyone else chimes in. But Hippo, please refrain from calling the current version "consensus". Just because you are prepared to revert more than the numerous people who've objected to this line doesn't mean the line has consensus. It certainly doesn't have consensus.Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:43, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) British is just as ambiguous as Northern European, First Northern European is a greater achievement than first British and therefore Northern European should be used.--Vintagekits (talk) 21:14, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- VK, your contribution to the last discussion on this subject made it clear your objection is personal (something about the word 'British' making your skin crawl) and has no basis in policy. I've reverted to British (adding '..and only Scottish') while this discussion is ongoing. Reliable sources do not generally use 'Northern European', so I can't see any good reason to do so here. --hippo43 (talk) 21:50, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- Hippo, I don't see how admitting why one dislikes this phrase makes an opinion less valid. As you may or may not know Hippo, "British" is often a sensitive term in Scotland which is used according to taste, but especially so for an institution so closely connected with Irish nationalism. You wouldn't describe Alex Salmond as British, and certainly not Gerry Adams, even though both of them technically are. I must say, this is pretty much the only context where you could describe Celtic as British ... but I think this point should be respected as an additional one. And Hippo, I must respectfully restate my displeasure at the way you are edit-warring on the page. You don't have to act like that .... :( Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:57, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- I didn't say his opinion was less valid. I understand his view entirely but it's not a legitimate basis for making content decisions in an encyclopedia, and shouldn't be allowed to over-ride policy. I'm well aware that some people dislike the word, but it is still the correct adjective to describe people or things from the UK. Salmond and Adams are British - it's not "technically" the case, it's their legal nationality. I would certainly describe either as British if it was appropriate for the context. As for edit-warring, your criticisms don't have a lot of credibility. --hippo43 (talk) 22:12, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- Vintagekits never claimed in this section that skin-crawling was the basis for his dislike of this sentence here, so your response to this makes no sense and seems a bit provocative. The only difference to me is that he's fessed up to his ideology, whereas you haven't fessed up to yours. If I am wrong, I am very sorry. And "legal nationality" has no more validity in wiki "policy" than actual nationality ... in wiki practice, sometimes less so, as you'll discover by reading the appropriate wiki articles. Cheers, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:23, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- VK has stated in other discussions on this point that "in general Celtic fans would never consider themselves as British or the club as a British club and despise everything British" and "that term British actually makes my skin crawl". I may be incorrect in assuming that his views remain the same, as those comments were made some time ago, but I doubt it. In any case, my response makes perfect sense. I don't know what ideology you think I should fess up to - perhaps you could let me know. Or if you assume everyone has some ideology, fess up to your own?
- I've no idea what you think is the diffence between 'legal' and 'actual' nationality. As far as I can tell, the guideline WP:MOSBIO states that "the country of which the person is a citizen or national" (ie their legal nationality) is generally used, and the essay WP:UKNATIONALS states that there is no consensus on how to refer to British people's nationalities. If there is some policy on stating nationality that you're aware of, can you point it out? --hippo43 (talk) 22:50, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- If there is some policy on stating nationality that you're aware of, can you point it out?
- You already know about WP:UKNATIONALS ... that sums it up. I suppose what I meant by actual nationality is the nationality people have on an individual and community basis, as held by themselves and any community. As a purely historical point, nationality predates the attempts by states to legalise it. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:59, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- If there is some policy on stating nationality that you're aware of, can you point it out?
- I've no idea what you think is the diffence between 'legal' and 'actual' nationality. As far as I can tell, the guideline WP:MOSBIO states that "the country of which the person is a citizen or national" (ie their legal nationality) is generally used, and the essay WP:UKNATIONALS states that there is no consensus on how to refer to British people's nationalities. If there is some policy on stating nationality that you're aware of, can you point it out? --hippo43 (talk) 22:50, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Anybody who knows football knows Celtic and their fans are extremely proud of being the first British winners of the Cup, and for pretty obvious reasons. They would never be so daft as to object to the word when used in this context, it would be tantamount to cutting off their nose to spite their face. And 'Northern Europe' from a football records perspective is utterly meaningless and made up, and would mean nothing to people who know about European football, let alone people who don't. MickMacNee (talk) 03:39, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oh look, another editor with a "joke" opinion full of "ideology, tendentiousness, and conclusions chasing arguments." (i.e. who has the temerity to disgree with Deacon of Pndapetzim) *rolls eyes* Rockpocket 06:36, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- " 'Northern Europe' from a football records perspective is utterly meaningless and made up" - whereas British is what? Do Celtic play in the "British League"? --Vintagekits (talk) 19:48, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- I don't want to step in a minefield here and I'm not intimately familiar with the naming conventions and the related disputes, but what would be wrong with "... the first team from the United Kingdom...?"68.82.136.142 (talk) 01:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- Also what would be wrong with "the first Northern European team and still the only team from Scotland"? - that pretty much sums it all up. Unless there are any objections to that then I propose that that is the preferred wording.--Vintagekits (talk) 13:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- Because the term "Northern European" is imprecise and is not recognised within the organisations and authorities of football. Nor does it have any political, cultural or even geographical significance. You'd be as well defining their European Cup win in terms of what bus the team arrived at the stadium in. It is an entirely made up definition that would appear nowhere other than in this article. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 23:02, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- "imprecise and is not recognised within the organisations and authorities of football" - its no less imprecise at "British" - a. there is an article on Northern European and once link there is no definition that doesnt include Ireland, Great Britain and other countries. b. Authorities in football dont recognise Britain either! Anyway it is a reference to a geographic area not a footballing term.--Vintagekits (talk) 00:08, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- VK, apart from the objections already stated above??
- 'First Northern European' is a spurious, made-up 'first' involving an undefined area, and which reliable sources do not use. 'British', on the other hand, is perfectly clear, has obvious significance (Celtic being the first club from the UK), and is widely used by reliable sources, including the club itself! In football sources, British records are often discussed, despite there being no British league - the British transfer record, for example.
- IP, 'British' means 'from the United Kingdom'. Re-wording the fact because some don't like 'British' is a form of censorship. --hippo43 (talk) 23:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- "spurious, made-up 'first' involving an undefined area" - wrong on all accounts. Why not say they were the first Glaswegian, Scottish, British and Northern European team? I'll tell you why because you would only include the greatest achievement of them all. Even the Scum agrees! or maybe you prefer non-Latin! --Vintagekits (talk) 00:08, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- Because the term "Northern European" is imprecise and is not recognised within the organisations and authorities of football. Nor does it have any political, cultural or even geographical significance. You'd be as well defining their European Cup win in terms of what bus the team arrived at the stadium in. It is an entirely made up definition that would appear nowhere other than in this article. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 23:02, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- Also what would be wrong with "the first Northern European team and still the only team from Scotland"? - that pretty much sums it all up. Unless there are any objections to that then I propose that that is the preferred wording.--Vintagekits (talk) 13:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- I don't want to step in a minefield here and I'm not intimately familiar with the naming conventions and the related disputes, but what would be wrong with "... the first team from the United Kingdom...?"68.82.136.142 (talk) 01:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- "Wrong on all accounts"?? Because you say so? Or do you have an explanation? Did you even read the sources you just mentioned? The BBC source says "first British team" in its first sentence! And the Sun article is a list of British sporting achievements! --hippo43 (talk) 02:26, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- I gotta say, I'm really still with Vintagekits on this one. There is clearly no consensus for the current version, and the argument that "British" tells the reader more than "northern European" I find incomprehensible. I think it is important to say they are the first northern European club. Contrary to assertions above, there is a recognized difference in football terms between northern and southern (Mediterranean) European teams (the stereotype is that southern teams are small and slick, northern teams big and rough, and so on), and thus it is notable. Germany in this sense is definitely a northern country. The tricky ones are France and the countries in the Balkans, not Germany. As a compromise, how about "First team from the United Kingdom (precise and less counter-intuitive, which "British" isn't) and indeed from northern Europe to win ..." No Balkan team, French team ... nor even a German team ... won previously, so this shouldn't be an ambiguity issue. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:39, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- But it is a totally pointless distinction recognised by no-one. "Northern Europe" is not a political, cultural or footballing entity with any meaning to it. The stereotypes you speak of dividing the continent are exactly that; stereotypes that mean nothing and have dubious accuracy or value. Why stop at "Northern European"? Why not state that Celtic were the first team ever to win the European Cup... except for some teams in Italy, Spain and Portugal. That's more accurate than this imprecise Northern Europe definition, equally true, and just as ridiculous. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 17:57, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- You are exaggerating the imprecision of "northern Europe" and precision of "British", unrealistically and irrelevantly so. To me this point has already been established above. Cheers, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:07, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- But it is a totally pointless distinction recognised by no-one. "Northern Europe" is not a political, cultural or footballing entity with any meaning to it. The stereotypes you speak of dividing the continent are exactly that; stereotypes that mean nothing and have dubious accuracy or value. Why stop at "Northern European"? Why not state that Celtic were the first team ever to win the European Cup... except for some teams in Italy, Spain and Portugal. That's more accurate than this imprecise Northern Europe definition, equally true, and just as ridiculous. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 17:57, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- I gotta say, I'm really still with Vintagekits on this one. There is clearly no consensus for the current version, and the argument that "British" tells the reader more than "northern European" I find incomprehensible. I think it is important to say they are the first northern European club. Contrary to assertions above, there is a recognized difference in football terms between northern and southern (Mediterranean) European teams (the stereotype is that southern teams are small and slick, northern teams big and rough, and so on), and thus it is notable. Germany in this sense is definitely a northern country. The tricky ones are France and the countries in the Balkans, not Germany. As a compromise, how about "First team from the United Kingdom (precise and less counter-intuitive, which "British" isn't) and indeed from northern Europe to win ..." No Balkan team, French team ... nor even a German team ... won previously, so this shouldn't be an ambiguity issue. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:39, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- 'British' is precise - it means 'from the UK'. Not only is 'Northern European' a dubious stereotype, the supposed significance of different footballing styles is obviously original research. So it is not universally understood, and it is very rarely used by reliable sources. On the other hand 'first British team' is very widespread, and is used by the club itself. Per WP:NPOV, 'first British team' is preferable.
- Consensus was established when noone objected to the wording for months. While consensus can change, there is currently no such consensus to include 'Northern European' or anything similar. --hippo43 (talk) 00:47, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed. There may be no consensus for the current version, but there is even less of a consensus for changing it to "Northern European" either. I'm counting 3 editors who are pro-Northern European and 4 or 5 who are pro-Britain/Scotland/UK. Which leaves us with the option of coming up with some sort of wording that will achieve consensus. Of course, that presumes a desire to work with people whose arguments consist of rubbishing the opinion of those who disagree with them. Good faith works two ways. Rockpocket 01:25, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
- Consensus was established when noone objected to the wording for months. While consensus can change, there is currently no such consensus to include 'Northern European' or anything similar. --hippo43 (talk) 00:47, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Leftist?
The article currently characterizes supporters of Celtic F.C. as "Leftist". I see no source for this, and I doubt it's accurate. To the extent that Celtic supporters identify with Irish ethnic nationalism, that is surely a right wing impulse?Irvine22 (talk) 16:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed. Uncited and largely irrelevant. If there is any relationship between being a fan of Celtic and political leanings of any sort, then all that is required is a good cite to establish it and offer some explanation. Presently there isn't one, so this should be removed. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 16:58, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- Why has it been allowed to stand on the article for so long then, with well established editors such as jack forbes and hippo not bringing this up. So you would say to change it to right wing? I would probably leave it with a citation required sig next to it for now until someone comes up with something better. (Monkeymanman (talk) 17:58, 28 October 2009 (UTC))
- As I said above; I would remove it. I do not believe a person's affiliation to Celtic has any causal relationship to their politics, so it is irrelevant. Happy to be corrected if a good cite can be produced, but until then... --Escape Orbit (Talk) 22:37, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- Why has it been allowed to stand on the article for so long then, with well established editors such as jack forbes and hippo not bringing this up. So you would say to change it to right wing? I would probably leave it with a citation required sig next to it for now until someone comes up with something better. (Monkeymanman (talk) 17:58, 28 October 2009 (UTC))
- Is it any different to the fact that rangers fans are all portrayed on their article about being unionists, but thats not the point here. It has been up there for a long time and Hippo has never said anything about it and still has not(Monkeymanman (talk) 22:39, 28 October 2009 (UTC))
- As has been repeatedly explained to you; what is on the Rangers article plays no part in improving the Celtic article. I also believe that other editors can speak for themselves without you. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 22:42, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- Is it any different to the fact that rangers fans are all portrayed on their article about being unionists, but thats not the point here. It has been up there for a long time and Hippo has never said anything about it and still has not(Monkeymanman (talk) 22:39, 28 October 2009 (UTC))
- i hope they can, but they seem to be awfully quiet(Monkeymanman (talk) 22:52, 28 October 2009 (UTC))
- Your prob right but what i dont understand is how it was allowed to stand for so long thats all(Monkeymanman (talk) 23:13, 28 October 2009 (UTC))
- Monkey, while I am obviously the arbiter and supreme overlord of all Celtic and Rangers-related articles, I'm afraid I just haven't had time to fact-check every sentence. You're always here - why hadn't you noticed it?? I also have other things to do and can't always comment within a few hours! Escape Orbit is correct - this is unsourced speculation. It definitely shouldn't be changed to right-wing - that would be OR. --hippo43 (talk) 01:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- Well you said it. I did notice it but thought that because it had been there for quite a while it must have gained consensus from the supreme overlords of the article. I did not mention to change it to right wing that was someone else, i only asked if they wanted to change it to that. You are right tho it has no place on a football clubs article wouldnt you agree(Monkeymanman (talk) 15:15, 29 October 2009 (UTC))
- So say a respected ref came out and said 'celtic fans are leftist' then it would be ok to put in the article, i disagree(Monkeymanman (talk) 20:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC))
- Not much point arguing over hypotheticals. --hippo43 (talk) 22:42, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- "Respected refs" are not reliable sources for the political allegiance of football fans (unless they are also notable scholars of football and/or politics). Rockpocket 22:55, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- Ok if a 'reliable source' mentioned that celtic fans were leftist then would that be ok, i disagree(being hypothetical)(Monkeymanman (talk) 14:45, 30 October 2009 (UTC))