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::That list is obviously bogus - it is the list of Lieutenancy areas from the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973, not a list of postal counties. In any case the Act didn't come into force until 1975 anyway! [[User:Owain|Owain]] 09:31, 7 October 2005 (UTC) |
::That list is obviously bogus - it is the list of Lieutenancy areas from the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973, not a list of postal counties. In any case the Act didn't come into force until 1975 anyway! [[User:Owain|Owain]] 09:31, 7 October 2005 (UTC) |
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I have used [http://www.gwydir.demon.co.uk/uklocalgov/counswni.htm] to construct a list for Scotland. Its odd that the Post Office still had a list of all the English & Welsh ones but not the Scottish. The islands were each a postal county according to this link. So that part is still missing. I will try and find a list of the islands that were definitely postal counties... [[User:Mrsteviec|Mrsteviec]] 07:54, 13 December 2005 (UTC) |
I have used [http://www.gwydir.demon.co.uk/uklocalgov/counswni.htm] to construct a list for Scotland. Its odd that the Post Office still had a list of all the English & Welsh ones but not the Scottish. The islands were each a postal county according to this link. So that part is still missing. I will try and find a list of the islands that were definitely postal counties... [[User:Mrsteviec|Mrsteviec]] 07:54, 13 December 2005 (UTC) |
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Hi. This is a list I found on a leaflet issued by Royal Mail leaflet issued in the 1980s: |
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Isle of Arran |
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Isle of Barra |
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Isle of Benbecula |
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Isle of Bute |
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Isle of Canna |
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Isle of Coll |
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Isle of Colonsay |
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Isle of Cumbrae |
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Isle of Eigg |
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Isle of Gigha |
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Isle of Harris |
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Isle of Islay |
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Isle of Iona |
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Isle of Jura |
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Isle of Lewis |
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Isle of Mull |
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Isle of North Uist |
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Isle of Rum |
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Isle of Scalpay |
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Isle of Skye |
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Isle of South Uist |
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Isle of Tiree |
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Hope this helps, [[User:Lozleader|Lozleader]] 16:03, 20 December 2005 (UTC) |
Revision as of 16:03, 20 December 2005
BBC News item
For an example of current Royal Mail usage of the county boundaries, take a look at this list, released through BBC News, of disrupted areas in the last postal strike. [1] I've undone the mass deletion because the new text was very POV. Whilst the current Royal Mail policy may be in place, it has not filtered through in many areas - many organisations and individuals still include the county line as a matter of course. A lot of online sites will not process an order without an entry in the county box (which can lead to the notion of "London, London"!). And the policy changeover was only 8 years ago (and even then not very well flagged) - many people still instinctively use the county on their postal address as the county they live in, regardless of what set of administrative boundaries are used this week. Timrollpickering 14:56, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
- There's nothing wrong with instinctively using the county on their postal address, in fact so long as it's the right one it helps to re-inforce the fact that traditional counties still exist. What I object to is getting things through the mail, or using online address validators that have old administrative areas on them (that only existed for 22 years) instead of my traditional county. In this regard, it's no longer the Royal Mail's fault (although they created this mess in the first place) - it's the resellers of PAF data that re-include the nonsensical postal counties in their products. We should be lobbying them! Owain 15:25, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Former postal counties at 1974
Prior to their abolition, the postal counties appear to have been the 1974 counties, except that
- Greater Manchester remained split between Lancashire, Cheshire. (Hmm, where was Saddleworth postally?)
- Greater London not adopted, instead it continued to be split between
But the following _were_ adopted
- Avon
- Cleveland
- Cumbria
- Humberside
- Merseyside
- South Yorkshire
- North Yorkshire
- Tyne and Wear
- West Midlands
- West Yorkshire
In Wales it followed the local government reform.
Obviously there were many border differences
Recent Changes & PO Archive
Thanks to Mrsteviec for the recent improvements.
One section that's still not quite right is the Popular Usage section. I remember an official Post Office leaflet from 1974ish that said that postal counties were not needed for places like Hereford and Reading. I'd like to have the complete list and could probably reconstruct the post towns as counties part but not the large towns part.
I have been looking on the PO Museum and Archive site for the leaflet but the nearest I can find is Post Office Postal Services information sheets relating to effects of the Local Government Act 1974 on postal addressing. If that link doesn't work, search this page for Finding No = POST 17/273.
I'm in Northern Ireland so it's not too handy to pop into the Archive in London to see if the sheets or something like the leaflet I remember are available. The record for the sheets does say "AccessStatus Not Yet Opened" so they might not be available anyway. There is an e-mail address on the site for enquires if anyone is interested enough to follow this up. --Cavrdg 21:41, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
- Many thanks. I've changed the wording to reflect that the direction came from Royal Mail rather than users. It would be great to include a full list of these places. Mrsteviec 07:06, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Coventry
Morwen wrote: "Coventry remained within the postal county of Warwickshire, whilst Birmingham became part of the postal county of West Midlands". Are you sure? I just entered "CV1 1AA" into http://www.capscan.co.uk/mcd5demo.htm and it came back with:
Traditional County WARWICKSHIRE Administrative County COVENTRY Postal County W MIDLANDS
Owain 14:02, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
- Well, since that has the administrative county line wrong, why should we trust any of it? ;) I shall try to find a source for it. Until then I shall take it out. Morwen - Talk 14:04, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
- Fair enough, although it must be noted that the Royal Mail don't acknowledge the existence of 'administrative counties with no county councils' such as West Midlands or Berkshire - the field contains the top level administrative area in much the same way as the ISO 3166-2:GB code does. Owain 14:14, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
- The administrative county isn't wrong. The City of Coventry is a Unitary Authority (for all practical purposes it is a top-level authority, albeit one that used to form part of a metropolitan county which has since had its nominal 'county council' abolished). Thus Coventry is in Coventry for those people who want to use top-level administrative areas as a basis for geography. The Royal Mail doesn't list ceremonial counties because, like most people, it thinks they are pretty irrelevant. 80.255 21:30, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
- Confusingly, the metropolitan counties (and Berkshire) are administrative counties even though they don't have county councils. --Cavrdg 06:55, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
- Which is another example of the messed-up local government situation we find ourselves in. These are all relics of the creaky old Local Government Act 1972. Its about time this was repealed and replaced with something fresher. Milton Keynes is a county? Bah! Berkshire is an administrative county without any administration? Bah! Owain 10:19, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
- From memory when the Act abolishing Berkshire County Council was passed I happened to be in the public gallery of the Commons for John Gummer's introduction to one of the stages. He seemed to be falling over backwards to emphasise that although the council was being abolished "the royal county of Berkshire" was not and that the Lord Liutenant would still have a job. I suspect this was primarily a sop to make it clear to sentiment that "Berkshire" was not being "abolished" but it reflects the general mess. Timrollpickering 12:06, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
- Here's what he said:
- "The second area is Berkshire. Much is made of the fact that it is the only county council of an historic county that is being abolished as a result of the local government review. We are also told that this means the end of the royal county of Berkshire. I want to put an end to that claim immediately. This order means the end of Berkshire county council, but not of the royal county of Berkshire. After all, it is the county that is royal, not the county council. Berkshire itself is not touched. For example, there will still be a Lord Lieutenant of Berkshire, and I have no doubt that people who live in the county will refer to themselves as coming from Berkshire." [2]
- Also note his use of the present tense when refering to the historic county. Saying that "After all, it is the county that is royal, not the county council" is also interesting. Which county is he refering to? It can only be the traditional county - i.e. the county that wasn't abolished in 1889. Berkshire was, after all, 'Royal' since before 1889, whereas the County Council has never been 'Royal'. He says that Berkshire itself is not touched - having just abolished the administrative area, the thing that we're meant to refer to as 'Berkshire' according to wikipedia policy... 80.255 12:20, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
- I don't think he is using "historic county" in the same way you are, you will note that he refers to Berkshire County Council, which did not cover Vale of White Horse, as "the county council of an historic county". Morwen - Talk 12:56, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
- Maybe so, but the "royal" epithet was assigned to Berkshire before 1974, and therefore includes the Vale of White Horse. If he has no doubt that "people who live in the county will refer to themselves as coming from Berkshire" then it's just another indication that the government sees a detachment of local identity from administrative areas. Owain 13:19, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
- I think he was going out of his way to say that the abolition of a local government authority is not the same thing as redrawing the map and saying that Berkshire does not exist (whatever that would mean).
- By the way has anyone checked the Wiktionary defition of "county" to see that it actually fits with Wikipedia policy? Timrollpickering 13:20, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
- I don't recall anything special about Coventry. It's on the list of large towns that didn't need a county so it would seem odd for the PO to specify a non-standard one as well. --Cavrdg 14:27, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
- I distinctly remember reading somewhere that Coventry, Warwickshire and Southport, Lancashire were both the preferred usages. I will consult my books when I get home. (I have several about the 1970s local government reform, which might have mentioned this, so isn't just something off a website.) Morwen - Talk 14:31, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Scotland
I've moved this from the page as some are very dubious e.g. City of Edinburgh - that was post town that did not require a postal county - not a postal county itself. Will try and get a verified list. Mrsteviec 10:20, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Aberdeenshire Angus Argyll and Bute Ayrshire and Arran Banffshire Berwickshire Caithness City of Aberdeen City of Dundee City of Edinburgh City of Glasgow Clackmannan Dumfries Dunbartonshire East Lothian Fife Inverness Kincardineshire Lanarkshire Midlothian Moray Nairn Orkney Perth and Kinross Renfrewshire Ross and Cromarty Roxburgh, Ettrick and Lauderdale Shetland Stirling and Falkirk Sutherland The Stewartry of Kirkcudbright Tweeddale West Lothian Western Isles Wigtown
- That list is obviously bogus - it is the list of Lieutenancy areas from the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973, not a list of postal counties. In any case the Act didn't come into force until 1975 anyway! Owain 09:31, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
I have used [3] to construct a list for Scotland. Its odd that the Post Office still had a list of all the English & Welsh ones but not the Scottish. The islands were each a postal county according to this link. So that part is still missing. I will try and find a list of the islands that were definitely postal counties... Mrsteviec 07:54, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi. This is a list I found on a leaflet issued by Royal Mail leaflet issued in the 1980s:
Isle of Arran Isle of Barra Isle of Benbecula Isle of Bute Isle of Canna Isle of Coll Isle of Colonsay Isle of Cumbrae Isle of Eigg Isle of Gigha Isle of Harris Isle of Islay Isle of Iona Isle of Jura Isle of Lewis Isle of Mull Isle of North Uist Isle of Rum Isle of Scalpay Isle of Skye Isle of South Uist Isle of Tiree
Hope this helps, Lozleader 16:03, 20 December 2005 (UTC)