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:::Just put 'reply' or 'reply to ____' in the edit summary box...it helps others who happen to wonder what x person did...I dunno, its not a ''huge'' deal when on discussion pages. <font face="Monotype Corsiva">'''[[User talk:the_ed17|<font color="8000000">the_ed</font>]][[Special:Contributions/the_ed17|<font color=font color="8000000">17</font>]]'''</font face> 01:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC) |
:::Just put 'reply' or 'reply to ____' in the edit summary box...it helps others who happen to wonder what x person did...I dunno, its not a ''huge'' deal when on discussion pages. <font face="Monotype Corsiva">'''[[User talk:the_ed17|<font color="8000000">the_ed</font>]][[Special:Contributions/the_ed17|<font color=font color="8000000">17</font>]]'''</font face> 01:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC) |
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::::It's useful for those watching an article talkpage to know what you're commenting about, tho "reply" or "cmt" are often enough; I prefer to clip a bit of my comment & quote it in the summary, so if you're looking for a particular comment, you can search the page without having to read it all. It's a matter of choice (like so much on WP). Only thing '''not''' to do is leave it blank. |
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::::And I don't know if there's a guideline on it, but when you start a new section, ideally, edit summary like this: <nowiki>"/* Indenting */ new section"</nowiki> (just leave off " & "). I think the system will do it for you (I've never opened a blank page & tried it), but in case it doesn't... [[User:Trekphiler|<font color="#1034A6"><small>TREKphiler</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font color="#1034A6"><sup><small>hit me ♠</small> </sup>]]</font> 05:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC) |
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== Respect == |
== Respect == |
Revision as of 05:33, 2 August 2008
Welcome!
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Surprise, surprise, surprise
Since, as Binksternet rightly pointed out, this was getting a bit OT, I wanted to reply here.
I think your basic argument is sound in the abstract. It's difficult to know positively when secrecy, let alone the passage of time, is involved. However, we can't ignore the personalities of the people in charge. Decisions are never made in a vacuum; they're driven by beliefs & values as much as aims.
That being true, you impugn the reputation of George Marshall, at least, if not FDR himself, by suggesting Marshall would knowingly go along with this. Marshall's integrity was unimpeachable & uncompromising. He would never stand for a conspiracy. And that means FDR would have had to be astonishingly careless, cavalier, or stupid to risk it (given you accept he did, & I don't). Marshall was supremely well placed to discover the putative conspiracy, & there can be no question he'd have exposed it if he had discovered one. Neither was FDR so stupid as he'd have had to be; whatever else he was, his grasp of political calculus was masterful. He cannot have failed to understand it would have ruined him to be caught in a fiddle like that, even presuming he wasn't impeached (& the anti-FDR climate in '40-41 wasn't unlike that around Clinton & Whitewater/Lewinsky, AFAIK).
Furthermore, the actions FDR did take belie the conspiracy theory. He tried everything he could to move Congress & public opinion to active support of Britain. He took measures to provoke Germany into declaring war (Lend-Lease, the Neutrality Patrol, reporting U-boats to RN, the "shoot on sight" order, none the actions of a true neutral). The conspiracy loons conveniently ignore all of this.
Beyond that, the benefit of a war with Japan would unquestionably fall on Germany, not Britain, & Hitler knew it. So did McCollum, author of that notorious memo the conspiracy loons use to try & defend their POV. McCollum wrote another memo (which the conspiracy loons conveniently ignore) in which he cogently & accurately points out what will happen if there's a war with Japan, hitting the exact points Hitler does in his own conference discussing the issue how it would benefit him; Hitler effectively says, "I wish." Then Japan gives him his wish. Unless FDR is a Nazi agent, unless everybody with access to ULTRA is a Nazi agent ('cause any one of them could have exposed the conspiracy)...it was legitimate strategic surprise.
One other reason? There were plenty of reasons to disbelieve an attack would fall there, or Japan would/could attack there, & even more reasons the Hawaii command was unprepared, all listed on the Attack page. Conspiracy is more fashionable, but plain stupidity is more common. So is luck. And so is the enemy being better prepared & taking an unprepared opponent by surprise. At bottom, the conspiracy loons aren't prepared to believe the Japanese could do it without help.
Or have I completely missed your point? Objectivity, to me, demands consideration of the credibility of the source. I don't, won't, give equal weight to a conspiracy loon as to a serious historiographer. They aren't functionally equivalent. If there's serious evidence it wasn't a genuine strategic surprise (which needs to take account of the above points), I'd favor including mention of it. I'm unaware of any. Absent any, the objective view is, it was a surprise. Absent any, saying it wasn't a surprise isn't objective, it's promoting a view contradicted by the overwhelming weight of evidence, & that's a small step from fiction. TREKphiler hit me ♠ 23:46, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- If you do want a pvt reply, you can email me. (I think you can access it through the sidebar.) TREKphiler hit me ♠ 14:13, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, I'm still new to Wikipedia. Which sidebar on which web-site/page would have your e-mail address? Also, if we do exchange e-mails, can we agree not to post anything said in the e-mails? It allows me to be more open and honest rather than a forum here where I have to be more careful not to say something that anyone and everyone would be able to read for the rest of time... Also, I'm sorry if I was a bit tough on you in the other page. I think there is more possibility for common ground or at least a better understanding of opposing views with what you said above, especially regarding the "impugning" of reputations... If we can come to some understanding then maybe there will be a way to present some of that on the public site for all to see...
- --David Tornheim (talk) 20:37, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- You should be getting a side or top bar with a variety of link options (Main Page, Contents, your Watchlist & such) that will give you my email. We can sure agree not to share. If you can't find the sidebar, try changing your skin. Your account signup should let you access it. To clarify, after you sign in, you should get a sidebar with options, & "My preferences" lets you change the skin. The top bar is the default, & maybe it doesn't have this, so you may have to change preferences to get to it. I've never tried using somebody else's...but I know it's there somewhere, 'cause I've gotten email. If you still can't find it, let me know & I'll try contacting somebody who found mine to talk you through it.
- I just remeembered 1 other thing... I may not be able to reply to an email right away; I just switched to a Mac, & I'm having trouble getting into my email account.... I will get back to you, tho. TREKphiler hit me ♠ 20:44, 21:48, & 21:59, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- For now I've decided to stay clear of e-mail. I think my responses on the discussion page, especially the end, cover a lot what I feel the most strongly about at the moment, which in short is, I can't really follow either side's primary argument in total, except your side's claim to "expert" knowledge. That argument is completely unconvincing at this point because no list of historians was provided, and because of Howard Zinn, a reputable historian who argues towards the "not surprise" side. In fact, he is the only person I know of in the debate who I know for certain is a historian. I know you have a couple of tomes of information on your side, but I think the other side does too. I'm not sure why you expect me to trust your people more than theirs without more evidence giving their credentials. Again, since I don't know the CV's for each of the people referenced of either side, without it, I'm sticking with Zinn, who I know I can trust. I would like to point out that I imagine Zinn draws a lot of criticism for challenging the official story of the American government and popular cultural and nationalistic beliefs that encourage the masses to have more faith in the government (and history) and certain leaders than is deserved. That's why your claim that FDR and Marshall are really stand up guys is not too persuasive. I'm not saying that either knew for certain there would be an attack or would let it happen, but I don't trust they were looking out for those at the bottom, but rather like most most Presidents and leaders throughout this country and others, they protect THEIR PEOPLE at the top, while SAYING they are protecting everyone at the bottom. People who really want to look out for those at the bottom have little chance of getting elected. The people at the top do their best to make sure of that. I can not think of a SINGLE president of the U.S. that was an exception.
--David Tornheim (talk) 22:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- A colleague of mine made another point I forgot to mention: History is written by the winners. Imagine what the story of Pearl Harbor would have been if the Japanese and/or the Germans had won the war. It is my understanding that since the Greeks beat the Persians, the only history we have is of the "evil" Persians and valiant Greeks--no history by the Persians. And it can be subtle: The people with money and power establish universities and help determine standards that make a scholar, and determine what projects get funding. The government does not fund educational research equally. Look at the FDA and FCC how they are corrupted by the businesses they are supposed to oversee. The "official" story frequently has far more resources and funds available to support their work, even if it is not true. --David Tornheim (talk) 22:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
<--The problem with relying on a single "trusted" source is, what POV is he coming from? "sticking with Zinn, who I know I can trust"? What makes you think you can? Morison & Prange, 2 of the most respected historians in this area (Prange formerly on MacArthur's staff, Morison responsible for the 14v USN official history) don't credit conspiracy; Prange's Verdict refutes in detail most of the revisionist claims. And we get into "duelling sources"; who's got more isn't really an indication of the quality of the information. (I can only say the overwhelming majority of historiographers refuse to take the conspiracy claims seriously.)
Re your outlne, suggest you look at PHAND. It covers most of the points objectively (if you can get past the conspiracy mania).
I won't suggest FDR or Marshall were necessarily staunch defenders of Joe Average, nor Pvt Average. I do think you can't baldly dismiss character or judgment. I don't argue Marshall's reputation alone is defense; I do argue his behavior is a product of who he is, & that doesn't change for being Chief of Staff, so on balance, I simply can't believe he'd go along. If you accept there's a conspiracy, you're also compelled to accept he & FDR, among others, would act contrary to their natures, & that strikes me as contrary to everyday experience.
You also have to accept they'd act contrary to U.S. interests (because loss of those BBs was no minikin) &, more important, contrary to their express objectives (& the objectives the conspiracy theorists ascribe to them), namely aid to Britain.
You also have to ask yourself why a devestating attack was a necessary condition. Wouldn't the discovery of the Kido Butai a couple of hundred miles from Hawaii be enough? Wouldn't intercepting an inbound attack have done the job? It's perfectly possible to imagine a clear, unambiguous warning from DC to Kimmel & Short, on the order of, "We have unimpeachable information Japan planning air attack. Take precautions accordingly." This would have led, arguably, to the destruction of the inbound strike force. Instead, the USG continued business as usual, building up in the Phillipines, which was seen as the station at most risk, while keeping Hawaii on a training status, 4000nm from Japan, safely out of harm's way, because, surely, IJN couldn't carry out two major naval operations (Kra Isthmus & Hawaii) at once.... Ooops. And we are back at stupidity & underestimating the enemy being more common than conspiracy. What I don't understand is, why that is so hard for some people to grasp. I guess Damon Knight was right. Or Sawyer was. TREKphiler hit me ♠ 01:36, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi there, I have warned the user regarding this, if he/she continues I will report them to WP:AIV. Unexplained blanking of article content, especially entire sections constitutes vandalism. You did fine on my talk page, the only thing you didn't do was create a header for the subject. You do this by clicking the 'new section' tab (up at the top) and entering a subject, or you can put two equal signs on either side of the discussion topic and it will generate a header for you. The archive box on my talk page is for archiving outdated discussions that are no longer relevant. Rather than deleting the discussions most editors archive them for easy access, and so other editors can view old discussions without having to dig through the page history. I'll keep an eye out for the editor removing the controversy section, he gets one more warning then he can be reported. If you see them delete the section again feel free to revert, the WP:3RR rule does not apply to vandalism. Is there anything else I can help you with? Cheers, Landon1980 (talk) 00:17, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for the help. I see they did it again, but maybe a separate person. Should we do Wikiscan? I haven't tried that yet. This is correct to reply here instead of your talk page?--David Tornheim (talk) 17:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- It dosen't matter where you reply, but just make sure that the user knows that you replied to them on your talk page--leave a message on their talk page saying something like "I replied to your message on my talk page". Good day! the_ed17 01:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- It's usual to reply on the poster's talk, unless you want to limit it to your own talk; if so, custom (as I've seen it) is to place a notice prominently on your talk saying "I'll reply here" & advise 'em to watch your talk. (Don't sweat how, unless you want an explanation....) Personally, I prefer to reply on usertalk so they'll know I've added, but it's your call. TREKphiler hit me ♠ 08:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for all the help!!--David Tornheim (talk) 17:39, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, if they do it one more time they will be blocked from editing. If you see that same user make that edit again report them to WP:AIV, there is a level 4 warning on their talk page. Anytime a user vandalizes after a level 4 warning their blocked. IP's are not usually blocked indefinitely, but where this is a registered user they will most likely be blocked indefinitely for using a 'vandalism only' account. Have a good day, Landon1980 (talk) 17:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for all the help!!--David Tornheim (talk) 17:39, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Indenting
To indent something, just put it like this:
:blah, blah, blah
It will appear as so:
- blah, blah, blah
To bullet/number something, it goes like this:
*The Shannara series is written by Terry Brooks.
- </nowiki>The Shannara series is written by Terry Brooks. </nowiki>
It will appear like this:
- The Shannara series is written by Terry Brooks.
- The Shannara series is written by Terry Brooks.
(The bolding was for emphasis, by the way. =]) Hope that helped some! If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to Cheers! the_ed17 01:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for all the help!!--David Tornheim (talk) 17:39, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Anytime...and here's another thing. =) When you reply to someone else's comment, indent your reply, like I did just now to your comment--it just makes conversations a lot easier to follow. Two more quick thoughts: don't get frustrated if you are not doing stuff right...Rome wasn't built in a day, and you won't learn everything about Wikipedia anytime soon, if you even could. I've been here since March of 2006, (my first edit!) and I'm still learning a lot every day I am on here. Good day! the_ed17 20:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Also, here's something that isn't required, but can help other users out:
When editing an article on Wikipedia there is a small field labeled "Edit summary" under the main edit-box. It looks like this:
The text written here will appear on the Recent changes page, in the page revision history, on the diff page, and in the watchlists of users who are watching that article. See m:Help:Edit summary for full information on this feature.
Filling in the edit summary field greatly helps your fellow contributors in understanding what you changed, so please always fill in the edit summary field. If you are adding a section, please do not just keep the previous section's header in the Edit summary field – please fill in your new section's name instead. For the record, though, you are one of the most amicable newcomers I have ever met! Thanks you for that! the_ed17 20:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for the further tips. Yeah, I knew about indenting, not immediately, but caught on--forgot about it for the outline. Sometimes it's unclear when it is best to indent. For example, on the "conspiracy thing", I was really really responding to just the most recent jab back & forth, I was responding to the ENTIRE DISCUSSION (that to me seemed to be leading nowhere in a hurry) and I was hoping to draw attention to the bigger picture--that's why I didn't indent there and at another place.
- I was also aware of the revision comments section. Except in my first edit, I pretty much always use it when revising an ARTICLE, except for reverts of deleted sourced material (on Lennar). I haven't been doing it for the discussion page, since I'm just adding to an existing conversation, and it seems redundant--what else are people doing other than continuing the discussion. What's the protocol on that? Any guidelines on comments in the discussion section. I have experience with revisions from programming & understand the concept for being able to see the history of changes to a product or program, etc., but it doesn't exactly make sense to have a revision history of a conversation--instead, I would think you just watch the conversation which is basically sequential anyway, right?--David Tornheim (talk) 04:53, 24 July 2008 (UTC) [Actually I submitted this an hour or so ago, along with the continuation of the next topic...]
- Just put 'reply' or 'reply to ____' in the edit summary box...it helps others who happen to wonder what x person did...I dunno, its not a huge deal when on discussion pages. the_ed17 01:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- It's useful for those watching an article talkpage to know what you're commenting about, tho "reply" or "cmt" are often enough; I prefer to clip a bit of my comment & quote it in the summary, so if you're looking for a particular comment, you can search the page without having to read it all. It's a matter of choice (like so much on WP). Only thing not to do is leave it blank.
- And I don't know if there's a guideline on it, but when you start a new section, ideally, edit summary like this: "/* Indenting */ new section" (just leave off " & "). I think the system will do it for you (I've never opened a blank page & tried it), but in case it doesn't... TREKphiler hit me ♠ 05:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Respect
For the record, though, you are one of the most amicable newcomers I have ever met! Thanks you for that! the_ed17 20:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for the compliment. I've been doing political stuff for years and used to be as argumentative as so many people here and on newsgroups are and have been. I have learned how futile it is to argue like this (although it can be fun, I guess)--when someone is invested in another side emotionally, which is often the case in these heated discussions, bashing your opponent over the head with your superior facts is generally not going to work: they will not want to feel beaten & humiliated, so they will simply do the same back, even if they have inferior facts. It's a matter of pride. The more aggressive or condescending you are, the more they will dig in their heals and fight fire with fire.
- Instead, if you really want the other side to listen, you have to start with respect, listening, and striving for common ground, and seeing the other side as an equal. In fact, if you see them as not the ENEMY, but a potential supporter of your viewpoint, you'll have a much better chance of convincing them. If you think they are an idiot and other condescending things about them, they'll pick up on that FIRST and FOREMOST and instinctively want to fight and disagree with you, even when they know you are right and no matter how solid your position. (As a good example, I met this one guy and he would come at people like a steamroller or tank, aggressively arguing his position. When I first met him, he did the same for me, implying I was totally wrong to think certain things. Unfortunately, he didn't know that either I didn't know or didn't think any of those things he seemed to be attributing to me, and I ALREADY agreed with his position before I met him. But because he was so nasty in his style of argumentation and towards me and those the disagreed with, I instinctively felt the need to defend the people I disagreed with and then disagree with the position he was taking, despite the fact that I originally agreed with it before he opened his mouth. What he really wanted was to argue, not to convince me. He had a chip on his shoulder. Fortunately, I didn't take the bait. I steered clear of his negative energy.)
- Back to the people being attacked--they'll simply hear the negativity you feel about them and vigorously insist you have no right to say such negative things, or think so badly of them and they'll throw in everything but the kitchen sink to protect their dignity and defend facts they know are sketchy--the argument on the surface appears to be about facts, but in reality, the desire to have one's opinions and viewpoints respected and heard is really what's going on. And both sides vigorously insist their viewpoint is not being heard for any number of reasons.
- On the other hand, when the person you disagree with has room to be mistaken gracefully, and the person doing the convincing does not thereby claim victory and say "See I was right; he's an idiot", if their acceptance of the contrary view is safe and they will not lose face by agreeing, then you will have a chance to bring them to your point of view. If agreeing with your opponent invites further ridicule and harsh treatment, they simply are probably not going to concede if they have any pride. It becomes more a game than an investigation into the truth.
- And last, and most important: My experience with politics is that you really waste your time, if you expend all your energy arguing with those who disagree with you, because as I said before, those who strongly disagree are unlikely to change their position, no matter what the issue and no matter how much energy you put into trying to convince them. Probably the best you'll get is that they will understand WHY you think what you think, may even be able to cogently make your argument to someone else, but will continue to disagree with you, but hopefully will leave with more respect for you than you started--that's probably your best case.
- It is also as big a waste of time to try to convince those who don't care about the subject at all. When you say to them, "You SHOULD CARE MORE about the environment", (or, say, Pearl Harbor), for example, they will immediately get defensive, just like the person who disagrees with you about whether drilling for oil in Alaska will have a negative impact on the environment. The person who does not care will resent your trying to drag them into a discussion about something they are not interested in, and will shut down, disagree to be annoying, pretend to be listening, nod their head in agreement when they actually disagree, etc. Either way, you are wasting your time and theirs, they are not listening and likely no substance is going to get in, they don't care. If they had any viewpoint on the subject before, it will be unchanged by whatever you said, which will be like the noise of a fly they would prefer to swat. If anything they will think, "People arguing for X are really annoying and pushy--I'm not sure I want to be associated with people arguing for X; they're jerks." Basically, they too feel disrespected for your trying to convince them of something they don't want to be convinced about; so you lose their respect as well. If you want their respect, which again is the most important, you let them continue not to care, go on their merry way and worry about whatever they do care about. If they later start listening, and this often happens when they get bored with whatever stuff is happening their lives and they see how excited you get about what you are doing, they start showing interest and asking questions, THEN you talk about that subject, but until then, you let them not care, and accept that, just like accepting those who disagree. It can be hard to bite your tongue when that's what you really want to talk about. In the meantime, maybe you can find another subject that both you and he or she DO want to talk about. You'll have a much better chance on the subject that does interest them.
- So in politics, to make something happen, instead of arguing ad nauseum with those who vehemently disagree or don't care, you first energize those who DO agree with you and support you. They are easy to convince--they are instinctively on your side anyway. Next, you convince those who are on the fence and have not made a decision, but are open to listening (unlike the people who don't care). They are going to listen to you AND to the other side, then come to a decision. If you're being mean to those who disagree, you're going to lose respect in their eyes and they may listen more attentively to the other side. If you are respectful, then they are more likely to think you are confident enough in your position to not get so defensive. And if you can accept that other people have different opinions (and even argue them WITHOUT resentment), they're also more likely to listen to you: They'll think, hey that person is reasonable and level-headed, not narrow-minded with an inflexible and emotionally invested based agenda; that person looked at ALL THE EVIDENCE and then came to a conclusion--they are not biased and have blinders on. That's my 2 cents...
--David Tornheim (talk) 04:15, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- Nice novel! Fun to read. I'll try to reply in depth later, I have to go for now. the_ed17 01:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- Ever think of being a crisis negotiator? (That's my in-depth reply =]) Wow. the_ed17 02:13, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- Glad you liked it. I put a lot of work into revising it, probably spent 2 hours on that. But I think it was worth it, even if you are the only one read it. I wrote something similar to an activist a few weeks ago, having put just as much work into it (don't know how much she actually read). I probably should have just cut and pasted that and revised accordingly. Of course, when I started, I had no idea I was going to say so much. Happens a lot to me. Sometimes drives me crazy... I'm saving this one, maybe I'll make a book out of essays like this... --David Tornheim (talk) 02:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
That would be a good idea...I think that many people would buy something like that! (like, um, crisis negotiators.... =]) Don't forget the section above too.the_ed17 02:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- After reading your [User:David Tornheim|user page]], I agree that, no, you are not neutral on some subjects. On the flip side, who is? People can be completely biased and still want a neutral article, right? Ugh. Disgusting, how people can just attack someone else because they think that they know them, and "know" what they are going to do. the_ed17 23:36, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Outlining
Two minor things. New topics start at the bottom, & use a new header, like so: ==Outlining== which gives you the effect you see, & the "edit" link for the section. You missed the bottom of the page here & left off the header, so I moved & added (which is within guidelines if somebody goofs; just be sure you put it back in...)
If you want to get tricky you can add * to get more indent,
- indent
- indent
- indent
- indent
or use #
- indent
If you want to get really fancy, you can [[User talk:Trekphiler|hide out]]... Cheers. TREKphiler hit me ♠ 08:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for all the help!!--David Tornheim (talk) 17:39, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Misusing Vandalism Warnings
Hi, I am an administrator. You just left me a vandalism warning [1] for an edit I made to Lennar Corporation in a good faith effort to improve the article. Wikipedia has an assume good faith policy. Attempts to improve an article, even if misguided, are not vandalism. You need to immediately stop misusing vandalism warnings in editorial disputes. Instead, discuss concerns with other editors and then go to dispute resolution, if needed. Jehochman Talk 21:31, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Conspiracy?
I've no problem with it, but it will need sourcing (& I don't have access to paper copies of the said reports, or I'd do it), so it's going to get promptly taken out again. I can only suggest, if it bugs you a lot, post a complaint on the PHAND talk page. Trust me, there are people with access to the docs who will address the issue. If not, try here; you might be surprised, & I know there are serious, interested people that will see it there, & act on it, if they realize there are uninformed people getting lost in the crossfire of esoterica. Hope that helps. TREKphiler hit me ♠ 04:18, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
TIND
See this essay on deadlines. If you have a concern about the article, you can start a request for comments on the get more editors involved, or you could try third opinion. Happy editing. Jehochman Talk 20:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- I can't disagree with that. It takes as long as it takes. Best you can do is watch the page, hope there are people as interested as you (& there probably are, check the talk page), & if it doesn't move at all, message the talk of somebody who's posted to the talk often. Or who created the page (click "page history" on the article page) & ask for comment. Give it at least a couple of weeks on a contentious issue with lo traffic on the talk page. (Something like PHAND, you'll tend to see it in a couple of days, 'cause it attracts a lot of attention; this has gone weeks with only 3 of us seeming to notice it, & that was after a msg to the WP Autos talk page.) You could also try a msg to the project talk page. (The article will fall under a project; follow the link, & beware posting on the project page instead of the project talk, 'cause it's all to easy to do. I learned the hard way. ;) ) And yeah, sometimes the application seems a little capricious. All I can say is, don't let it bug you too much, 'cause there really isn't much you can do about it. Post the messages, prod people if you can, & above all, keep your temper, 'cause frustration will only bite you when it comes to getting results. (That's the hardest thing for me.) Hope it's some help. I'll have a look at the page, too.
- I gotta tell you, I don't see the beef, either. I'd say both sites are outside NPOV (neither is neutral on it), but beyond that, you got me beat. Might ask here for more info. Calling it vandalism was over the top; bad call, maybe, but clearly not bad faith. And you overreacted in the tone of your edit summary; all caps is SHOUTING. (Yeh, there's all kinds of wikiquette to learn...) Better to post a comment to the talk page with detailed concerns or questions, & your reasons for including, reverting, re-adding, whatever, after it's taken out, especially when you're getting somebody citing guidelines. That's obviously somebody who knows his way around.
- And when it comes to what's OK for EL sources, I'm not the best one to ask, 'cause I took out ELs & had the original poster complain about it & win. I thought I understood the standards... TREKphiler hit me ♠ 20:46, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- I moved our discussion to the talk page of the Lennar article, and replied to your last post there. Landon1980 (talk) 21:42, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Day code: style section
"what's the best way to add emphasis?" Not having read it, I can't say if this addresses it. I find it's more a matter of personal taste. I prefer bolding ('cause I find ital doesn't show up well on my monitor), but I've gotten ragged a bit for it; some wikipeople consider it shouting. It's really your call; you're not gonna get warned off for much past a lot of ALL CAPS, which is over the top, especially in edit summaries. (Why that's treated diff, I'm not really sure, but it is; deal with it. ;) ) Oh, & style questions like that, really, are better posted to a usertalk page, rather than an article page, since they don't deal with the article content/format. (Unless you mean emphasis within the article...) No, that's not a rule, just a convention, a bit like the diff between a party line & a private one. Hope this helps. TREKphiler hit me ♠ 04:53, 2 August 2008 (UTC)