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Apologies to the people in charge of the featured articles, but this is not good optics [[Special:Contributions/50.29.253.217|50.29.253.217]] ([[User talk:50.29.253.217|talk]]) 17:45, 26 June 2022 (UTC) |
Apologies to the people in charge of the featured articles, but this is not good optics [[Special:Contributions/50.29.253.217|50.29.253.217]] ([[User talk:50.29.253.217|talk]]) 17:45, 26 June 2022 (UTC) |
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: I don't think I agree. It would be hard for me to identify anyone else who has so successfully mobilized queer people (and others) in support of trans rights in online spaces - albeit as an unintended reaction. [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 17:51, 26 June 2022 (UTC) |
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TFA reminder, June 26
@4meter4, A. C. Santacruz, Adam Cuerden, AleatoryPonderings, Aza24, Barkeep49, Bastun, BilledMammal, Bodney, Buidhe, Crossroads, Czar, Ealdgyth, Endwise, Extraordinary Writ, Firefangledfeathers, FormalDude, Guerillero, Hog Farm, Hurricane Noah, Innisfree987, Ipigott, Ixtal, Johnbod, LokiTheLiar, Newimpartial, Olivaw-Daneel, RandomCanadian, Sdkb, Sideswipe9th, Silver seren, SMcCandlish, Serial Number 54129, Vanamonde93, Victoriaearle, Xxanthippe, Zmbro, and Z1720: Pinging all involved in the FAR and TFAR for extra eyes on TFA day. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:38, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'll try to take as much of a look as possible, but I'll be asleep or at church for most of the first half of the run. Hog Farm Talk 16:41, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- I will be watching all except for two hours towards the end of the run, and when I try to sleep :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:47, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Both articles have been on my watch-list for a long time. I'll definitely be keeping an eye out tomorrow whenever I'm online. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:37, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Will keep an eye on this when I can today. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 10:16, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I will be watching all except for two hours towards the end of the run, and when I try to sleep :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:47, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Won't be involved as I'm recovering from surgery but I'll respond to pings if urgent help or my opinion is needed. Enjoy your weekend everyone and be proud of the formidable work done by all of you to take this article back to FA quality and to curate its nomination for TFA. The work we do not only to cover notable topics well but to recognize and maintain quality articles is something you should congratulate yourself in the mirror for regularly. This is important work that y'all are doing and you should feel proud of your contributions. I am proud of you all :) — Ixtal ( T / C ) ⁂ Join WP:FINANCE! 20:58, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Get well soon, and thanks for the kind words. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:37, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm here (thanks for the ping, I'd lost track of the date), but not feeling great so will be in & out and not up to any great long discussions. Victoria (tk) 23:05, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- 35 minutes in, and three changes have been made. I've picked this revision from 16:57, 25 June 2022 to restore to, though I was tempted to pick one further back and closer to the FAR. Not sure if this is the right version to go back to, but the work from @Ham II: hasn't diverged too much from the FAR. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:37, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Adding relevant links:
- Wikipedia:Featured article review/J. K. Rowling/archive1 April 2022
- including five talk archives at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/J. K. Rowling/archive1 from December 2021
- TFA blurb Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article/requests/J. K. Rowling April 2022
- Lead RFC Talk:J. K. Rowling/Archive 11 January 2022
- AN Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Eyes on J. K. Rowling TFA June 2022
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:46, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Good luck. If my clearing of POTD/Unused was a bit controversial, this could be a powder keg. But, y'know, I can respect all the hard work you put in as editors without needing to respect the article's subject that much (her twitter is one of the biggest internet horrorshows at the moment, and not in the Nadsat meaning of "horrorshow". It's about 90% attacks on trans people, especially given she's pinned a bunch of her favourite attacks.) I'm a bit concerned for all of you (I don't want to see any of you hurt if this blows up) but, well, in the end, there's never going to be a good time to run it anymore, so, y'know, good luck. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.9% of all FPs 23:39, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
BLP vio allegation
JeffUK The well-vetted content you removed was not a BLP violation, nor was it thinly sourced. There are boatloads of mainstream sources discussing where JKR has been referred to as a TERF; here's but one easily found sample: [1]. Your edit also left a grammatical error in the article; please self-revert. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:38, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Note I had already reverted this by the time you got this typed up and posted! Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:39, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I suggest you may have reverted too far back; the edits before the article went live were not problematic, at least IMO. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:43, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Possibly, though I wasn't too sure about the edits by Wubslin and Kleinpecan, as they diverged pretty far from the FAR in some sections and I'd rather be overly cautious and re-do those after the TFA is finished. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:56, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Note, per the section below the edits by Wubslin and Kleinpecan have both now been restored. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:00, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Possibly, though I wasn't too sure about the edits by Wubslin and Kleinpecan, as they diverged pretty far from the FAR in some sections and I'd rather be overly cautious and re-do those after the TFA is finished. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:56, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I suggest you may have reverted too far back; the edits before the article went live were not problematic, at least IMO. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:43, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- The topic of this thread is also under discussion at the Biographies of living persons noticeboard. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:51, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Broader discussion of this text continues below at #"and she has been referred to as a TERF". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:13, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Casual Vacancy
Kbabej, the source you added here is not a high quality reliable source as required for Featured articles, and Casual Vacancy has its own article, where detail about it can be explored. Please review WP:FAOWN and the Featured article review linked above, and discuss further edits on talk. I suggest you self-revert. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:42, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Note, I've also reverted this by the time you'd typed this up and posted. Sorry @SandyGeorgia:. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:44, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Slow and steady wins the race :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:52, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
"and she has been referred to as a TERF"
I'm certainly not trying to upset the apple cart right before it's on the main page (it's already there), and I know it took a lot of discussion to get to where it's at now, but when the article says "...and she has been referred to as a TERF..." would it perhaps be beneficial to say who has referred to her as such? With the current wording it's not really clear if this is just something that Twitter users have called her, or if some expert in some social field or something had said? I know the source cited just mentions her responding to such accusations and not who was doing the accusations, but is this something that was previously discussed or that can be sourced to specific people or groups? - Aoidh (talk) 00:48, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Aoidh: this was discussed at length during the FAR at: Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_review/J._K._Rowling/archive1/Archive_5#Workshopping_the_transgender_section Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:50, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- For now, I have double-cited it: [2] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:58, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- She has been called that by various groups as mentioned on several sources-- enough that further specificity might not be helpful. Have you a suggested wording change we might discuss? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:52, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I know I'm probably being less than helpful in even bringing it up, but I only saw this and this as far as sources. I wasn't able to identify sources showing who said it so I don't have any suggested wording change. I didn't see in the FAR where the attribution of the term was discussed, but if it's been said by enough people that attribution isn't really helpful I'm certainly not trying to press the issue, I just thought it might help, but if it doesn't then I'm happy to drop the suggestion. - Aoidh (talk) 01:02, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Give me a moment to work something up :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:03, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I know I'm probably being less than helpful in even bringing it up, but I only saw this and this as far as sources. I wasn't able to identify sources showing who said it so I don't have any suggested wording change. I didn't see in the FAR where the attribution of the term was discussed, but if it's been said by enough people that attribution isn't really helpful I'm certainly not trying to press the issue, I just thought it might help, but if it doesn't then I'm happy to drop the suggestion. - Aoidh (talk) 01:02, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Looking at just a few sources:
- This USA Today "splainer" refers to it generally, and indicates JKR herself suggested she had been called that: [3]
- NBC News says she referred to it herself: [4]
- Dave Chapelle says the "transgender community" call her a TERF. [5]
- The Independent refers to her reference to the term: [6]
- The Advocate outright calls her a TERF: [7]
- CNN says "critics" have called her a TERF: [8]
- The LA Times references her statement that she was called a TERF: [9]
- The Scotsman puts it on a Twitter trend: [10]
So just from that sampling, it seems widespread. Our text currently says:
Rowling's statements have been deemed transphobic by critics and she has been referred to as a TERF (trans-exclusionary radical feminist). She rejects these characterisations.
I'm at a loss for how to improve that; suggestions welcome. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:28, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks so much for those sources, I didn't see those when I made this topic. But after reviewing the sources, it does look like it's not something that can be attributed to a person or group of people, the only suggestion I would make is possibly rewording it to
so that way both the transphobic part and the TERF part are both attributed to critics? That way there is that attribution and acknowledgement of who is making those assertions, even if it's just the broad "critics"? - Aoidh (talk) 01:35, 26 June 2022 (UTC)Rowling's statements have been deemed transphobic and she has been referred to as a TERF (trans-exclusionary radical feminist) by critics. She rejects these characterisations.
- The sources don't restrict it to only critics: Dave Chapelle proclaims he is "team TERF". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:54, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Ah, fair point. I really don't see anything I could suggest that would be an improvement then. - Aoidh (talk) 01:57, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for raising this; I've added now a scholarly source, and someone may come up with better wording because of your effort! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:59, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Reading through that source, I don't believe it supports the line; it says that Alice Schwarzer was
branded a ’Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist’ (TERF)
, but it doesn't make such a statement about Rowling. BilledMammal (talk) 12:51, 26 June 2022 (UTC)- My apologies for the delay, BilledMammal; it took me some time to figure out where I had stored the source. You are correct, I misread, and I will shortly self-revert. Thank you for noticing my error. The direct statement about Rowling is "storm of insults and death wishes" (hence my offer above that one option is to broaden the statement beyond just TERF). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:04, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Here are some other journal possibilities:
- Gulley " As a result, Rowling was called a TERF (trans-exclusionary radical feminist) by many in the LGBTQIA+ community (Ivy 2019)."
- I do not have access to this one: Thomsen ... anyone?
- Vaitoska "Recently, the author of Harry Potter J. K. Rowling was called TERF – a mock- ing term meaning “trans-exclusionary radical feminist.” She was proclaimed such for supporting the opinion that sex change is biologically impossible."
- I do not have access to this one: Schwirblat ... the preview shows it seems to support the text.
- There are quite a few others I do not have access to; I believe it apparent that the statement can be cited to a scholarly source, but we should discuss which to use after closer examination. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:28, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- The Thomsen, et al. paper doesn't have a single quote that supports it. Instead Rowling is mentioned as one of several anti-trans and TERF individuals named in a larger section titled "Kill the feminist, kill the lesbian".
- The Schwirblat, et al. paper does not appear to have been published yet, as the publication date is 27 June 2022. Sideswipe9th (talk) 15:41, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- So ... the Thomsen paper directly calls her a TERF by including her there ?? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:47, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I've emailed you a copy of the Thomsen paper now. By my reading it does support it, but unlike the Gulley and Vaitoska papers it does not do so in an easy to quote manner. Sideswipe9th (talk) 15:54, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- So ... the Thomsen paper directly calls her a TERF by including her there ?? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:47, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm only able to see Gulley, who cites to this NBC News piece re TERF, [11] (not sure if we have this one?). Victoria (tk) 15:51, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Adding: in fact the NBC opinion piece does not even mention the term anywhere, so Gulley has miscited or misattributed. I wouldn't use it. Victoria (tk) 15:55, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thx, and I have now viewed Thomsen, which I think not sufficient, so those two are out. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:09, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Had a closer look at the Vaitoska paper. It cites a Forbes piece from December 2019 for it, though upon closer inspection of the Forbes piece it seems to be from a Forbes contributor which we generally consider to be unreliable and a self published source, unless the contributor is a subject matter expert. I don't know enough about the author, Dawn Ennis, to tell if they are such an expert. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:26, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thx, and I have now viewed Thomsen, which I think not sufficient, so those two are out. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:09, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Reading through that source, I don't believe it supports the line; it says that Alice Schwarzer was
- Thanks for raising this; I've added now a scholarly source, and someone may come up with better wording because of your effort! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:59, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Ah, fair point. I really don't see anything I could suggest that would be an improvement then. - Aoidh (talk) 01:57, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- The sources don't restrict it to only critics: Dave Chapelle proclaims he is "team TERF". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:54, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
I think this should be removed. it's not appropriate for an article to list all of the slurs and insults that have been made about someone, even if it is proven that those slurs and insults have been made. Rowling's own essay is the ultimate source of many of those articles, where she says in full " I was transphobic, I was a cunt, a bitch, a TERF, " Should we add 'She has been referred to has a cunt, a bitch, and a TERF, characterisations she denies'? I don't think we should be using terms like 'TERF' in articles unless it's a label they accept for themselves; even if we try and weasel out of it by not using wiki-voice. JeffUK (talk) 10:06, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not aware of numerous sources listing the other things she has been called, although if they do, an option is to replace TERF with something more general about the speech and threats directed at her, which scholarly sources do cover. I am satisfied with the use of TERF only. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:02, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- My concern is not verifiability. Reporting that an offensive slur has been used against someone is not appropriate for an encyclopaedia biography article without a very good reason to explore it in detail, more than anything it's WP:Undue Especially when the subject has vehemently denied the claim, and spoken out specifically about the chilling effects of that label. JeffUK (talk) 13:23, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- The "very good reason' is that a noted and so-called feminist turned out to hold views that are widely considered to be bigoted. Similarly, white supremacists don't like to be called white supremacists, they prefer identitarian. Personal opinions of the subjects in these cases is not relevant. Zaathras (talk) 14:09, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- My concern is not verifiability. Reporting that an offensive slur has been used against someone is not appropriate for an encyclopaedia biography article without a very good reason to explore it in detail, more than anything it's WP:Undue Especially when the subject has vehemently denied the claim, and spoken out specifically about the chilling effects of that label. JeffUK (talk) 13:23, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I see that what TERF stand for is spelled-out, but is there a reason why it isn't linked to TERF? Was this a conscious decision made? Zaathras (talk) 12:47, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Confused ... ?? ... it is linked? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:49, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Can confirm it is wikilinked. I've also checked the revisions shortly before the time Zaathras made their reply, and it seems to be linked in all of them. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:29, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Confused ... ?? ... it is linked? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:49, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- The current wording seems ideal. Certainly no convincing arguments to change it here. ––FormalDude talk 15:51, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- As long as we're linking to the TERF article which explains the larger issues around the recently coined term I don't see the slur issue... Its common for an objective description to be described as a slur by those its directed against. If a white supremacist is adequately described as such by WP:RS but considers white supremacist to be a slur (most of them do) and instead wants to be called a "white identity activist" we're not going to honor their wishes. Not sure why we would treat this differently from any other form of bigotry. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:40, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Options on "referred to as a TERF"
Rowling's statements have been deemed transphobic by critics and she has been referred to as a TERF (trans-exclusionary radical feminist). She rejects these characterisations.
Per the discussion above, we have several options:
- Leave well enough alone based on source list above
- Add a scholarly source to the general statement
- Broaden the statement to encompass "storm of insults and death threats"
- Qualify the statement somehow (wording would be tricky)
Please suggest ideas and preferences .... NOT A VOTE ! If we get sufficient or diverging opinions, then we can consider a survey. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:38, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Why do you feel 'Removing the phrase 'TERF' from the article is not even an option? JeffUK (talk) 17:31, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Removing it entirely leaves the content without context for her essay rebuttal, in which she clearly outlines that issue ... that is, IMO the best option should we opt to remove the term entirely is to replace it with something about the general insults aimed at her, so that context is supplied. That said, if others support it, we could certainly consider going that direction. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:40, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Other discussion
Oddly (???) I have just now been pointed to a discussion that was started at BLPN hours ago: see here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:50, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Wubslin edits
@Wubslin: Per the request made at my talk page, could you elaborate on what the outright errors are please? For convenience here is a diff of all of your edits made that were rolled back. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:00, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I did not have an issue with any of those edits; how to reinstate them now, though ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:02, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Shouldn't be too difficult to do. Give me ten minutes and I should have em restored. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:07, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- apartment --> flat
- British Royal Navy --> Royal Navy
were the two outright errors. The rest were just minor copyedits which I thought made the flow better. Thanks for your prompt attention, both of you. --Wubslin (talk) 01:09, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I've restored all edits made by Wubslin except for one that I wanted to query first. In this edit @Wubslin: you removed a sentence about Rowling's relationship with her father. Could you explain why? Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:22, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Ah ha ... I had forgotten ... I also did not understand that one, except that the flow is a bit off. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:29, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Note. I've also now restored the changes made by Kleinpecan after getting a chance to look at it in closer detail, and offered apologies over at her talk page. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:38, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- As regards this, I was basing the removal on the fact that we have "Rowling's home life was complicated by her mother's illness and a strained relationship with her father" in the section just before, so there is probably no need to say "She had a difficult relationship with her father..." just a few lines later. Worth saying once, but not twice in quick succession. Does that make sense? Sorry, I should have done a better edit summary. --Wubslin (talk) 01:44, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Ah, I see, and do not disagree. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:52, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Cool. I'll restore that bit now then too. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:53, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- All good now, I think ? Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:57, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Content restored. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:57, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Cool. I'll restore that bit now then too. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:53, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Ah, I see, and do not disagree. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:52, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- As regards this, I was basing the removal on the fact that we have "Rowling's home life was complicated by her mother's illness and a strained relationship with her father" in the section just before, so there is probably no need to say "She had a difficult relationship with her father..." just a few lines later. Worth saying once, but not twice in quick succession. Does that make sense? Sorry, I should have done a better edit summary. --Wubslin (talk) 01:44, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Done, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:03, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
British English
Zmbro regarding this edit (from a boy called Harry to a boy named Harry), Ham II had earlier changed that per British English. I don't speak British English; could others sort this? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:16, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oh is it? My bad. To me that sounds odd but then again I'm not British so.... – zmbro (talk) (cont) 04:23, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I have spent time in England, which I know is very weak supporting evidence, but it is my understanding that called is more commonly used there. I tried to find evidence online supporting this, but outside of forum posts, I could find nothing. However, Collins dictionary (which is a British English dictionary) and theFreeDictionary both state that called is the more commonly used word in this instance. With that in mind I think keeping it as called would be the best option. - Aoidh (talk) 05:24, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I have spent 66 years in England, except for the years I didn't, and called is used more often than named, though either is acceptable. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 05:46, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I am thinking of turning in for the night now; it sounds like we should go back to called, but not urgent, so we can wait for more opinions. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:07, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- As a Brit, I would use "called" in speaking, not quite sure about in writing. PamD 06:27, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I have spent 66 years in England, except for the years I didn't, and called is used more often than named, though either is acceptable. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 05:46, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I have spent time in England, which I know is very weak supporting evidence, but it is my understanding that called is more commonly used there. I tried to find evidence online supporting this, but outside of forum posts, I could find nothing. However, Collins dictionary (which is a British English dictionary) and theFreeDictionary both state that called is the more commonly used word in this instance. With that in mind I think keeping it as called would be the best option. - Aoidh (talk) 05:24, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Done, [12] (awake now and following). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:55, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Last sentence of the lead
It currently reads: These have been criticised as transphobic by LGBT rights organisations and some feminists, but have received support from other feminists and individuals.
I propose changing to: These have been criticised as transphobic by some LGBT rights organisations and some feminists, but have received support from other feminists and individuals.
The current wording implies "LGBT rights organisations" as a group condemn Rowling's comments. Surely we would need a very good source for such strong wording. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 13:32, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- It is adequately sourced in the body text, and not required to be cited in the lead, which is a summary of the body. -Roxy the bad tempered dog 13:41, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- As far as I can see, none of the sources say she has been called transphobic by a majority of "LGBT rights organisations". This is why I want to qualify the statement with "some". 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 13:45, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- The WP:WEASEL word "some" is used in the transgender section of the article, and I personally would not support using it in the lead, which is well crafted. -Roxy the bad tempered dog 13:48, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- If the qualification is included in the body, why is it not appropriate in the lead? 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 13:52, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- because it is a summary. - Roxy the bad tempered dog 13:58, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- You haven't addressed my point. The current wording gives a misleading impression of a consensus against Rowling from "LGBT rights organisations". 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 14:05, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Let's see what others say, shall we. I have addressed your point though. Things will be omitted from a summary, that is the point of summarising. - Roxy the bad tempered dog 14:08, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- You haven't addressed my point. The current wording gives a misleading impression of a consensus against Rowling from "LGBT rights organisations". 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 14:05, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- because it is a summary. - Roxy the bad tempered dog 13:58, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- If the qualification is included in the body, why is it not appropriate in the lead? 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 13:52, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- The WP:WEASEL word "some" is used in the transgender section of the article, and I personally would not support using it in the lead, which is well crafted. -Roxy the bad tempered dog 13:48, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- As far as I can see, none of the sources say she has been called transphobic by a majority of "LGBT rights organisations". This is why I want to qualify the statement with "some". 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 13:45, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Another possibility: These have been criticised as transphobic by some LGBT rights organisations and feminists, but have received support from other feminists and individuals. -- Just as concise as the current wording, and it more accurately summarises the body 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 14:22, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Do we need a headcount of how many LGBT rights organizations have condemned Rowling's transphobia? What number is the tipping point, where you'd drop the call for "some" ? Zaathras (talk) 14:42, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- We'd need sources saying something along the lines of: "a majority of LGBT rights organisations have condemned R's comments" or "LGBT rights organisations have banded together in condemning R's comments -- some kind of collective language which suggests there is a consensus or majority opinion among "LGBT rights organizations". It's not up to us to make a headcount. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 14:59, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Are you aware of a recognized or major LGBT org that did not condemn Rowling? At any rate, considering the lead was subjected to a recent and extremely well attended RFC, it is unlikely that sentence will be changed without very strong consensus, or possibly a new RFC which should only be launched after carefully crafting the wording, as discussed on the FAR, to avoid another no consensus outcome. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:53, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Some editors may be under the impression that the LGB Alliance is in some sense an LGBT rights organization, in the sense of this paragraph. It is not. Newimpartial (talk) 16:05, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Looking at the article as it stands, the only reference to the LGB Alliance is in a cite which makes it clear that they're a bunch of transphobes, so at least that's not a problem as it stands. Black Kite (talk) 17:34, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Some editors may be under the impression that the LGB Alliance is in some sense an LGBT rights organization, in the sense of this paragraph. It is not. Newimpartial (talk) 16:05, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Paragraphing in the lead
While this edit introduced only a paragraph break, such an edit can be construed as POV by breaching the WP:LEAD guideline to create a separate (short and stubby) paragraph to highlight one issue. Considerable consensus went in to building the lead; I have reverted that edit and left a message to lettherebedarklight. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:02, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Overlinking
Neveselbert in this edit, why did you delink fantasy literature (directly relevant in a literature article)? Also, could others opine on the delinking of pen name? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:14, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- While I could somewhat see value in delinking Gloustershire per OVERLINK, I don't agree with delinking fantasy in the infobox, fantasy literature, or pen name. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:19, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Agree with Sideswipe. "Fantasy" and "pen name" are directly relevant to the subject and should be linked imho. Victoria (tk) 16:33, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I am in agreement with Ss and Victoria; unless neveselbert weighs in shortly with a good reason, I suggest we restore the links. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:40, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed, I see no issue in restoring those links in lack of a response by Neveselbert. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:18, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
"temp jobs"
Is there a reason this article uses an abbreviation of "temporary"? Is that consistently reflected in the literature? Otherwise, I am inclined to expand it for the sake of formal writing. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 16:21, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- To describe succinctly, it's a British English thing. Describing oneself as a "temp" or in a "temp job" was until recently, when it was replaced with zero hour contracts, just how we used the term here. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:26, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- We discussed this at length somewhere; give me a moment to find that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:28, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Have a look here: Talk:J. K. Rowling/Archive 12#Not an improvement. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:30, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- PS, thanks for asking :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:31, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- FWIW, we also use "temp work(er)" in American English; it's just not an abbreviation I had assumed would be appropriate in formal written English. Interesting that there's some controversy over whether the abbreviation is itself meaningful; I agree you made the right choice, then. Thank you both, God bless. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 16:39, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, too ... so glad you asked before editing :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:41, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- @SandyGeorgia: Yeah, I've learned that wording choices that strike me as "obviously" wrong in TFAs have usually been discussed before. I always ask instead of being bold now. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 16:40, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- FWIW, we also use "temp work(er)" in American English; it's just not an abbreviation I had assumed would be appropriate in formal written English. Interesting that there's some controversy over whether the abbreviation is itself meaningful; I agree you made the right choice, then. Thank you both, God bless. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 16:39, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Who’s idea was it to have this be the featured article during pride month?
Apologies to the people in charge of the featured articles, but this is not good optics 50.29.253.217 (talk) 17:45, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think I agree. It would be hard for me to identify anyone else who has so successfully mobilized queer people (and others) in support of trans rights in online spaces - albeit as an unintended reaction. Newimpartial (talk) 17:51, 26 June 2022 (UTC)