=Prussia and the land of the Prussians= |
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You '''ought''' to remember that the land of the Prussians predates the foundation of Königsberg!<br> |
You '''ought''' to remember that the land of the Prussians predates the foundation of Königsberg!<br> |
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--[[User:Ruhrjung|Ruhrjung]] 16:14, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC) |
--[[User:Ruhrjung|Ruhrjung]] 16:14, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC) |
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==[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Marienkirche_of_Danzig&action=history St Mary's Church in Gdansk]== |
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Nico, sorry to say so, but you are a problem user. You start edit wars without using the discussion page and without even trying to answer our arguments. I understand your love for the German language, but please remember that this is English wiki, not German. If you can prove that all St Mary's churches are called in English ''Marienkirchen'' - please do so. Otherwise please stop moving the page. |
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And please be so kind as not to force me to start the whole ''problem user'' thing.[[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 17:41, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC) |
Revision as of 17:42, 31 March 2004
Earlier discussion: archive1 (October, 2003 - January, 2004)
Nico, what was wrong with my version of the Gdansk intro? The "formerly Danzig" clearly isn't going to stand... john 03:22, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hey Nico, I agree that it's useless to reason with User:Gdansk or whoever that is. I am currently going to stick with the formulation I've been using, as some form of it seems to have been acceptable to most everyone, and it is, so far as I am aware, completely accurate. It indicates that the city normally used to be called Danzig without denying that it might also at that time have been called Gdansk, which I think the Polish users object to. Let's not worry about this until User:Gdansk loses interest, at any rate. john 04:51, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Czaja This is correct, that he was born in Teschen, but in this historic moment 1939 it is very confusing, because it suggests Austrian anschluss. In addition, I am not sure if he still lived in Polski Cieszyn or maybe he moved somewhere else in Silesian Voivodship. He seems to me more adhere to Silesia then to particular part, like Austrian Silesia. Better state simply, that all parts of Silesia were annexed by Germany at this moment, as simple as it is possible for avarage reader. Cautious 13:20, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Nico, I've protected Pila now. Can you please stop and converse with the person you are reverting? Follow Wikipedia:Conflict resolution. If you feel it's broken down, request comments, request mediation, do what you have to do. Just please stop the revert wars. I know, it takes two sides. I'm asking you not to be one of those sides right now. Let's settle things. Thanks, Nico. Jwrosenzweig 20:57, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Image centring
Hi Nico! Thanks for your response to my re-centring of the picture caption on Mozart. I have to accept what you say about IE5 making a mess of the picture positioning but I'm still puzzled (I have IE6). I've just done a count of how many pictures I have put on WP since I began in January 2003 and it's 800 (800 thumbnails and 800 larger versions).
Every single caption is centred so why has no-one told me about this problem before! Any theories? Best Wishes,
Adrian Pingstone 17:54, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)
invitation
Please see Talk:American twenty dollar bill. You get this invitation because your name appears in Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (US vs American). Feel free to ignore if you are disinterested. - Optim 05:16, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hi Rick (or John)! Why do you have to claim Polish like Copernicus were Germans? Aren't there any famous German people you could edit? Copernicus didn't even speak German. Mestwin 02:40, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Copernicus did speak German, BTW :)
Adolf Hitler claimed Copernicus for the German nation I have a collection of stamps by Adolf Hitler, issued in 1940, claiming the Copernicus was a German astronomer. I just thought they may be of interest for you.
Hi Nico - thank you for your kind words. I guess i am wikipediholic and couldn't stand more than a month away from wikipedia Szopen
Would You call planned mass extermination of Jews during WW II - Germanization?
And then, there are many Jewish holocaust deniers. World is a twisted place.
Space Cadet 15:36, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- The comparison is ridiculous. And you know it. Nico 15:41, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Can't say that I do. It's actually a very good analogy, despite huge differences in the historical era. But like I said, there will always be people who deny the most obvious.
Changing the subject: since you are the omly one questioning genocide/extermination, how about coming up with some sources for "Germanization". Not from some XIX century (or XIV century, for that matter)historian and not from some Landsmannschaft site, though, please!
Truly,
Cadet
And what's wrong with XIX century historians? Nico 16:03, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
The same as with XIX century physicists, chemists, linguists, archeologists etc. Newtonian mechanics, although taught to this day in high schools, cannot explain high speed phenomena, spacetime curvature or twin paradox. Phlogiston theory although charming, loses to the oxidation as explanation of combustion. Vis Vitalis theory stating that no organic compound can be synthesised from non-organic matter outside of living organisms is a joke since the synthesis of uric acid. And so on and so forth. Science constantly moves forward, verifies and rewrites itself. While the Pythagorean theorem survived millenia, other "canons of knowledge" cannot survive half a decade. The number of resources available to scientists increased unimaginably since XIX century. Also science became more independent from the political indoctrination. The so called "scientific method" crystallized into a very well defined process.
Do you consider yourself an educated, well read person (as I always considered you to be)? Because if don't, then what are you doing at an encyclopedia? Making waves? Excercising shock value?
But at least I'm happy you don't question my request not to use Landsmannschaft sites. Theoretically, you could've asked what's wrong with them, too. After all, you made reference to them several times in various articles.
Hopefully, I was able to clarify some issues troubling you. Count on that always!
Sincerely,
Space Cadet
As you may have noticed, I have nothing against the Landmannschaften. But I don't think they in this particular case are more relevant as historical sources than, say, CDU, SPD, Labour or any political party or organisation.
And I still think genocide and extermination are not the right words when dealing with the issues of the Teutonic Knights and the Baltic Prussians or similar cases in history. Nico 19:17, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
And that's your opinion, which I respect. Whether it belongs in an encyclopedia, is a different issue however.
Space
I can find no evidence that what you say is true. And aren't you the person who was claiming only the other day that East Germany should be about the lands currently described at Eastern Germany? Morwen 18:18, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC)
Do you think you ought to write to dw-world.de to tell them they've made a terrible mistake here? [1]. They seem to be using 'Eastern Germany' to mean the six states, not areas annexed by Poland etc! Morwen 18:25, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC)
Argh, I found another one. This time the german tourism board have got it wrong. They think that Berlin is in Eastern Germany, when you say it is in Middle Germany. Here is the link - [2].
And the British Council in germany have got it wrong too - see [3]. They say Eastern Germany is Berlin, Brandenberg and Mecklenberg-Vorpommern! In fact, I can't find anyone who has got it right! Morwen 18:28, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC)
But you must agree the _primary_ use of the term 'Eastern Germany' in English refers to a region entirely confined within the borders of the Federal Republic, whatever its exact boundaries may be. Certainly we should mention the historical usage of the term, but we shouldn't try and present that as the primary usage of the term. I will rewrite the introduction a bit to match what I found. Morwen 18:33, Mar 3, 2004 (UTC)
Hi, Nico, Please don't get carried away with reverts on the East Germany article. It is enough to occassionally return to the article and edit it to your satisfaction, but please don't engage in revert wars. Fred Bauder 15:04, Mar 6, 2004 (UTC)
Neumark is only part of East Brandenburg. Cautious 23:31, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Well, it comprised the area of Mark Brandenburg east of the Oder, as far as I know. Nico 23:37, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
You are ingnorant, as far as I know. Neumark was the Eastern part of Brandenburg. Frankfurt was not a part of Neumark, while Naumark never reached Oder river. I know much more about German East then you. Cautious 23:39, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Do you have any source that Expelees really make such a nonsense claims? Cautious 10:33, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Why do you attack the Polish cities, forge historical articles, rename Polish cities into German, translate English language articles into German? Do you enjoy this??? Mestwin of Gdansk 22:23, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Indeed, I do, Grzez. Especially I enjoy cleaning up after you. Nico 22:25, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Do yoy fight ghosts, Nico?????? - Grzes is busy right now and have no time to Wikipedia, but he promised to come back soon. Mestwin of Gdansk 22:37, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Fine. I'm sure you will let him know that I miss him a lot. It shouldn't be too difficult for you. Nico 22:41, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Thank you for speedy revertion of User:AntiNaziWatch in Szczecin despite controversion resolution in progress. Neverthless, please do not to mark reverts as minor edits. Przepla 15:59, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Hi, Nico, What I put on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (disputed place names) is so far only my sugestion and I suppose it would be better to wait a bit till more people actually agree it's either a good solution or adopt a different one. Kpalion 12:02, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Mediation
You have been invited to join in mediation regarding placenames in Central Europe. Please accept or decline this request at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation# English/Polish/German/Nazi names of the Polish cities . You may also indicate who, if anybody, you would like to act as your representative if you do not want to participate personally, as well as your preferences regarding the choice of mediator. Tuf-Kat 23:18, Mar 17, 2004 (UTC)
Nico, the fact that some morons do something does not mean that you have to act equally idiotic. It's something wrong with them, be sure not to let them infect you, since you're not striking back at them but at all Poles here and reliability of Wikipedia at all.Halibutt 15:15, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Also, it was you who started it in October. Don't blame everythng on the others.Halibutt
BdV's struggle for our homes
I think "ancestral homes" implies that only the ancestors of the current expellees in Germany actually were expelled. This is not the case. Million of Germans living now were expelled themselves. It's not only their ancestral homes, but their own homes we are talking about. Nico 17:01, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
There is a contradiction in the message of BdV. One must chose between arguing to represent a sixth of the population, in what case one must include also the generations born after the war, or to represent only the pensioners, in what case one credibly can demand their homes back (although the actual owners in all but the rarest cases are dead). This doesn't bother BdV much, but now we are to write articles meeting somewhat higher ambitions, and the propagandisms will 1/ lower the credibility of the text, and 2/ give fellow wikipedians (who are not involved in the current disputes) an impression that you-know-whom deserve support (see: Wikipedia:Unencyclopedic).
This day is, by the way, symbolically a very gloomy anniversary. Although the crisis of international diplomatics that surrounded the invasion of Iraq temporarily led to closer contacts with the Russian post-Communist government, ultimately it only cemented the souring relations between Russia and USA, which in the long run means that we can forget any accommodations with respect Soviet WWII-gains, as cooperation on development of Karelia as many Finns had put their hopes to, or East Prussia, which could have been such a nice cooperational project serving to deepening the trust between Russia and EU. :-(((
--Ruhrjung 20:43, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Should we maybe elevate the debate from the most personal levels?
You know better than me what you've done. I propose that we remove your last comment[4] and my reply from Talk:Gdansk. If we don't, maybe someone gets the idea to dig up some examples of what you have done. (In other articles, but it will in any case neither be good for you nor for the goal I try to reach.)
--Ruhrjung 00:42, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I have nothing to hide. There is no need to remove any comments. Nico 01:09, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I have to say that I don't think that removing comments is a good way to accomplish anything constructive, especially as they're still available in history. To be honest, I don't think anything constructive can possibly be achieved so long as User:Gdansk continues to be involved in this dispute. john 01:16, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Is there then maybe need for peace keeping forces from the rest of wikipedia?
--Ruhrjung 01:32, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I do not believe so. In most cases, it's possible to cooperate with other people, even those with strong POVs - like me ;-) but also most Polish contributors. Caius2ga/gdansk was the only real problem in the Silesia case, and when he left, the remaining users reached a compromise, which also was defended by the Polish side. At the moment User:Gdansk is blocked from editing, after vandalizing numerous articles on German cities "in retaliation action for blocking Gdansk and Szczecin" - hopefully he will be permanently banned at some point. Nico 01:49, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I can only hope you are right. My fear is that we see a problem with an individual where he is only the visible representative for a localized POV.
BTW: ...if their issue had been only German actions during the world wars, it would have been much less of a problem. On that point they are in agreement with dominant opinions in the world (or at least in the West and in Wikipedia). But their problem is rather a long-lasting German dominance, which obviously hurts the national dignity, in addition to their feeling of having been betrayed by "Europe" and left to the eastern wolves. ...more than once.
This makes representatives for the opinion User:Gdansk mirrors problematic. It has parallells with bitternes nurtured by Finns and Palestinians, and shows pretty clear in how quick otherways lucid contributors, as for instance User:Space Cadet can detoriate. If wikipedia succeeds to chase User:Gdansk away, we might see other representatives for his opinions sooner than we would have wished. (And I do not think of sockpuppets.)
--Ruhrjung 01:55, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Hey, Nico. I'd like to ask you to refrain from editing and reverting Expulsion of Germans after World War II? For some time maybe, just enough to enter the discussion. Perhaps explaining what is factually or logically wrong with my header:
- Expulsion of Germans after World War II refers to the ethnic cleansing of the Germans remaining outside of German territory as defined by Potsdam Conference.
I'd really like to work out some compromise, defending even that ethnic cleansing but you seem to take no notice just forcing your views. Views that can be contested on grounds of factual accuracy. See Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II
Sorry, I have to revert Cautious' pure revionism. His edits are unacceptable, and he knows it. You should ask him not to revert.
- Please do not ask me to resolve your own conflicts. Prhaps try to talk with people before acting. Moreover - below - you misquote my words to perpetrate your petty war. And yes, this makes me angry, because I'd like to be source of compromise not a tool for conflict.
Also, "remaining outside Germany" is offensive. When they were expelled, it was not outside Germany. The German government did not recognize these borders until 1990, and the areas are generally considered parts of Germany by the expellees. There should also be a link to the Eastern Germany article. Nico 22:46, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Did I really wrote "remaining outside Germany"? No, I wrote "remaining outside of German territory as defined by Potsdam Conference". Is this logically false or something? Note that I'm not speaking of Germany but of Potsdam Conferrence decisions! Are Potsdam conference's decisions offensive to you? Even if they are, they are the undisputable historical fact, the prime basis for expulsions and you should mention it. And believe me - for many Poles it is offensive and even traitorous as well. Poland has lost much more territory than Germany after all. -- Forseti 09:13, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Would you support something like a very brief wording in the initial sentence? For instance:
- Gdynia (formerly also Gdingen and Gotenhafen) is...
--Ruhrjung 14:52, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Yes, it's fine. But it's not necessary to bold Gotenhafen. I'm only bolding names which have been used in English (Gdynia and Gdingen). Nico 14:54, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
You are right!
I believed there was a redirect from Gotenhafen, but it doesn't seem so, and I see really no reason to.
See also: User_talk:Cautious#Gdynia,_briefer and User_talk:Ruhrjung#Gdynia.
--Ruhrjung 15:11, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Prussia and the land of the Prussians
Don't forget Wikipedia:How_to_revert_a_page_to_an_earlier_version#Revert_wars_considered_harmful_(the_three_revert_guideline)!
You ought to remember that the land of the Prussians predates the foundation of Königsberg!
--Ruhrjung 16:14, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)