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I agree -- although I do think that theological and philosophical critiques ought to be situated and contextualized. [[User:Slrubenstein|Slrubenstein]] |
I agree -- although I do think that theological and philosophical critiques ought to be situated and contextualized. [[User:Slrubenstein|Slrubenstein]] |
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:Thank you for the responses. I agree that jewwatch is inappropriate. I am glad that critical links will remain. I hope to see at least one more link that is truly critical of Judaism (not jews). I think an internal criticism would be most appropriate. - [[User:Texture|Tεx]][[User Talk:Texture|<font color=red>τ</font>]][[User:Texture|urε]] 03:44, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC) |
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== willful misunderstandings == |
== willful misunderstandings == |
Revision as of 03:44, 16 April 2004
Older discussions may be found here:
Talk:Judaism Archive
Talk:Judaism/Archive 2
Talk:Judaism/Archive 3
Talk:Judaism/Archive 4
Criticism
- Home Page of "Jew Watch" The "anti-Jewish" critics of past and of current "Jewish/Zionist" Supremacism ]
- Judaism and Jewish Apologetics - Critical analysis of the moral aspects of parts of Judaism; from Infidels.Org
- Piety and Power: The World of Jewish Fundamentalism David Landau, Hill and Wang, 1993
- David Duke's critical historical analysis of "Jewish Supremacy" and its impact on the modern world
- http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0745308198/102-2015385-6701711?v=glance Jewish History Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3000 Years]
Editorial Reviews From Booklist: Israel Shahak, who came to Israel in 1945 after surviving the concentration camp in Belsen during the Holocaust, contends that the potential for Israel's right-wing Jewish religious movements to seize power represents a threat to the peace of Israel and to the Zionist movement. He posits that Israel as a Jewish state constitutes a danger not only to itself and its inhabitants, but to all Jews and to all other people and states in the Middle East. Shahak, who was raised as an Orthodox Jew, condemns what he sees as discrimination against non-Jewish citizens of Israel. The real test facing both Israeli and diaspora Jews is the test of their self-criticism, which must include the critique of the Jewish past. Most disturbing, Shahak insists that the religion, in its classical and talmudic form, is "poisoning minds and hearts."
This controversial attack of Israel by a Jew is bound to alarm Jewry worldwide. George Cohen --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.
First, let's put away the red-herring of the Israeli Palestinian conflict. I am not taking any stand on this position here, nor does the article. It is appropriate for another article. Anyone who brings it up is clouding the issues here. If you are doing so and do not understand why it is unproductive I will explain it to yo; if you are deliberately clouding the issues know that you are using an anti-Semitic tactic. Second, that a website has the highest googles must -- as with all facts -- be taken in context. Anti-Semites link and search certain pages specifically to influence their position in Google. So, finally, the link in question is anti-semitic and has no place in this article. Period. If you feel wikipedians should have access to it, link it to the page on anti-semitism. Slrubenstein
- What makes you think that the judaism article is unique in being able to remain w/o criticism? You point about palistinians and such is valid. Your second point is flat out wrong, period. Sam Spade 05:06, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
You are wrong. One can criticize things that people say, and things that people do, but to criticize a whole people is racist. You also seem to be wilfully misunderstanding my point. The link that I and others have been deleting is blatantly anti-semitic. Slrubenstein
- Will it be acceptable if it is labelled as anti-semitic? Sam and Paul, would you accept this label if they keep the link? - Tεxτurε 16:37, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Put it in the article on anti-Semitism. Slrubenstein
- So, you don't find it to be acceptable criticism. Worth a thought, anyway. - Tεxτurε 17:41, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- How would you define acceptable criticism? (I'm on neither side of this but looking for the boundaries.) - Tεxτurε 17:41, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
As I said above, there is acceptable criticism within the community -- for example, debates between Orthodox and Reform Jews. There have been debates between Judaism and other religions, though not -- to my knowledge -- recently (e.g. debates between Jews and Christians in the Roman and Middle ages). There are other "criticisms" that I canimagine are legitimate, but may not belong in this article -- for example, secular humanist Jews may have criticisms of Judaism (I hesitate only because their criticisms are probably criticisms of all religions, and would be more appropriate linked to a religion article). There are other criticisms that are legit but definitely belong on another page -- for example, criticism of Israeli policies (the wall, the settlements, second class citizenship of Israeli Arabs, and so on) that belong on the Israel page (many Jews, most Jews, are not Israeli and these policies that are being criticized are not strictly "Jewish"). Completely unacceptable criticisms would be anti-Semitic slurs like "The Jews control Hollywood" or "The Jews control the banks." These slurs are no more acceptable than racist slurs against Blacks would be, especially when linked to a page on African-Americans! Slrubenstein
- Not referring to the links in question, I can see plenty of non-Jewish criticisms that would belong here. You do not need to be of a religion in order to have valid criticisms. In fact, I would think that a balanced article would need criticisms from outside the object in question. (Atheist analysis, perhaps.) I do agree with you that slurs and slandar alone are not criticisms. Since this page is on Judaism I am sure that there are non-Jewish criticisms that belong in the critics section. (The current links aside) can you tell me that there could never be a non-Jewish criticism that would belong on a Judaism article? Are you of the opinion that only Jews can criticize Judaism? If so, we will have some issues on an Islam article. - Tεxτurε 18:08, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
No, I do not think that only Jews can criticize Judaism. But since Jews have been in a minority for (with the exception of a couple of hundred years, and, since 1949, Israel) most criticism of Judaism has occured in a political context of oppression. One cannot evaluate a criticism against Judaism without being clear about what motivates it (I think this is generally true of course). It is very important to distinguish between such criticism and other criticisms. Also, there is a crucial difference between Judaism on the one hand and Christianity and Islam on the other -- a difference that, while fundemental to Christianity, is nevertheless one that many people who grow up in a Christian society find hard to understand. Judaism is, as Paul suggests, a religion of the flesh. It is not about what someone believes, or feels in one's heart, so much as belonging to the nation of Abraham, through Isaac and Jacob. (Atheism is not really a criticism of Judaism since one can be Jewish without believing in God, although this is admitedly rare. What are other "criticisms" you imagine? That the Torah is not written by God? Well, many Jews do not believe it was written by God, so this isn't a criticism of Judaism). It used to shock me when a Christian friend would explain that the child of a Christian is not automatically or necessarily Christian -- a child of a Jewish mother (and for some, a Jewish father as well) is autonatically Jewish, and stays so unless they consciously renounce being Jewish. In this sense, perhaps "criticisms of Judaism" is less like a criticism of Islam and more like a criticism of "Arabs." Slrubenstein
- Good response. The last line is a good evaluator of criticism of Jews but not of Judaism. My understanding is that the term refers to the religion and now the people. (Somehow the culture is in there but still this is really about the religion since you can be Jewish and not believe in Judaism.) I have listed to a woman named Irshad Manji speak on Islam and her belief that the Quran was not written by God. She has much to say about Jews that are not well received by Moslems and much against Israel that is well received. Do you read criticisms from non-Jews? Have you found any that are credible? - Tεxτurε 19:13, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
My main point is that the very nature of Judaism makes it difficult if not impossible to distinguish between "religion" and "ethnicity" -- concepts that are culture-bound, and meaningful in modern Western societies but not necessarily useful in other contexts. When you say that one can be Jewish and not believe in Judaism, I think you are applying a Platonic/Christian binary between being and believing. A male Jew is Jewish by virtue of circumcision -- this is not a volitional act by the circumcised person, and does not represent belief (although many Greek-influenced Jewish philosophers, like Paul, have suggested this -- my point is that the suggestion reflects Greek thought more than Jewish thought and has no basis in the Hebrew Bible). A secondary but still important point is that "criticism" has to be understood in context. Do I accept criticism by non-Jews? Well, I don't know why not -- but I woold need to know why they are making the criticism, and what the effect of the criticism might be. Of course I feel the same way about "praise" of Judaism. Surely you know many Jews and even many Zionists are skeptical if not suspicious of right-wing fundamentalist Christian support for Israel. And is the "criticism" really a criticism? As I said, most Jews would not take the statements "God does not exist" or "The Bible was not revealed by God" as criticisms of Judaism. Slrubenstein
- I think its one thing to have *theological* or philosophical criticism of the Jewish religion (and this can be internal or external, I have no problem with a link from a Christian viewpoint arguing, for example, that the Jewish religion is wrong not to accept Christ etc or from a Islamic viewpoint arguing why Jews should accept Islam or why Jews should accept Buddah or what have you or a secular or athiestic viewpoint on why Jewish religious beliefs do not hold water). I think it's also valid to have criticisms, internal or external, say of the Haskalah and moves towards Jewish assimilation or criticisms of Jewish nationalism (though if it gets into Zionism it belongs in that article). But that's all quite different from anti-Semitic Jew-baiting or Jew-hatred, ie criticisms that have no scholarly or intellectual basis (or even factual basis) but are just propaganda attempts at spreading hatred against Jews rather than engaging in a serious debate on Jewish issues. Jew-Watch brings nothing to the debate, it is not "criticism" but abuse and vitriol and it is ridden with factual errors and distortions. I don't see any reason why Wikipedia should list it in an article on Judaism as some sort of source of either information or criticism. If it belongs anywhere it's in an article on Anti-Semitism as an example of the practice. AndyL 21:47, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I agree -- although I do think that theological and philosophical critiques ought to be situated and contextualized. Slrubenstein
- Thank you for the responses. I agree that jewwatch is inappropriate. I am glad that critical links will remain. I hope to see at least one more link that is truly critical of Judaism (not jews). I think an internal criticism would be most appropriate. - Tεxτurε 03:44, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
willful misunderstandings
Actually I didn't see the subtlety you were trying to get at, the distinction of race/culture vrs. religion/philosophy. Maybe you are right, and racial critisisms shouldn't be present in the form of external links, but rather a link to racism, or anti-semite, or whatever. It brings up a more important issue to me, which is 'are jews a race or a religion, or both?'. Every Jew I have ever known insists it is a religion, not a race, but then my jewish friends tend to pride themselves on their family 'going back' to moses, and so forth. Ethnic history/tradition is an important factor amongst jews. In summary, your view about the external link makes sense to me, so long as jews are to be viewed not as a religion, but as either as a race/ethnicity, or some conglomeration of race and religion, much like sikhs, jains, or hundu's. Regardless, critisism not based on race, but rather on religious doctrines should be present, altho I agree that is not what jew watch appears to be about, and despite its high google rating, it does seem to be a site of rather poor quality. Cheers, Sam Spade 01:15, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)