Richard Sorge (talk | contribs) No edit summary |
Andrew Zito (talk | contribs) No edit summary |
||
Line 96: | Line 96: | ||
<b>What documented evidence is there that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were Deists (as stated)?</b> |
<b>What documented evidence is there that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were Deists (as stated)?</b> |
||
THE CONTINUED CENSORSHIP OF THIS PAGE BY SOCALLED DIEST AGNOSTIC PANTHEIST LIBERAL ELEMENT CAN ONLY BE DISCRIBED AS TOTALITARIAN AND FASCIST |
Revision as of 14:38, 26 June 2004
I'm not sure if this is the best thing to do, but I've added this to the list of controversial issues, simply as a warning to expect abuse from Andrew Zito if you try to make any changes to the article. older ≠ wiser 22:22, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
A quick Google search shows passionate arguments on both sides of the claim that deism was popular among the U.S. Founding Fathers. I plan to research this further. <>< tbc
Thanks! When I get a chance I'll dig up my notes and see what I can add. – Anonymous#1
Please do not use searches on the Internet to try and research this claim. The 'net is full of websites written by Evangelical and otherwise right-wing Chrisitians who are not honest about this subject. I have seen, and on radio have heard, dishonest historical revisionism on this topic. The documentable historical truth is that many of the USA's founding fathers were Deists; many in fact found Christianity contemptible. Thomas Jefferson himself edited a radical version of New Testament to take out the miracles, and anything else imcompatible with Deism. All this talk about all of them them being Chrisitians is part of the Christian right's political agenda. RK
You might even find a source, like, say, Wikipedia via the Internet. :-) If you're going to discount the writings of Christians, then respond with your own evidence. I found a mix of Atheists and Christians writing about the subject. When I have time to research it (yes, on the Internet) I'll say more. Until then (despite my Christian bias), I'll leave it at that. I suggest you do the same until you back it up with your own evidence. And be prepared to defend it. The Founding Fathers' writings are available on the 'net. Use them. <>< tbc
- By the way, I am not discounting the writings of all Christians! I only say that we shouuld discount those that are demonstratably dishonest and misleading on this topic. RK
Look at tbc's page before you say this. For now, maybe we can say that some Founders were Deists and that Deism was an influential idea at this time. I certainly dont think they were ALL Deists. Some of them were probably devout Christians. – Anonymous#2
Thanks. The evidence shows that many of them indeed were devout Christians. And it's undisputable that virtually all were shaped by a Christian worldview—whether they believed in it or not. (There's plenty of evidence that Jefferson rejected Christian accounts of Biblical miracles, for instance.) <>< tbc
The American Christian right-wing does have a political agenda, and it does involve deliberately lying about the origins of our nation. For years they have been slandering historians who objectively discuss the formation of our nation and its founding fathers. Historians get in the way of their attempt to turn the USA into an explicitly Christian nation.
Do I have the authorship straight now? I apologize for mis-reading the diff. RK, you have twice declared that there is some deliberate spreading of misinformation going on. Just pony up with some evidence. Go ahead and put it here if it's not ready to incorporate into the article, but I see no reason for you to repeat yourself. I have nothing to "critcize" because you haven't produced any evidence. So far it's just been namecalling. <>< tbc
Actually ultra conservative christians consider any thoughts of the US being created as a christian country comeplete propaganda, and wholeheartedly attack the founding fathers for their deism (believing instead that the US and all countries should be christian countries.
What is this {{eo:Diismo}} code that is buried in the main entry for?
looks like a link to the Esperanto article. Koyaanis Qatsi
Others share the theistic outlook that God is still active today. Deists do not believe in miracles or revelations.
Is there a difference between believing in an active God and believing in miracles? Evercat 21:04, 26 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- An active God could be one observing, answering small prayers, etc. etc, without ever actually doing a miracle. Lyellin
- Hmm. Isn't even a small miracle a miracle? What sort of things do you think the god could do and not count as miracles? Morwen 21:27, Dec 26, 2003 (UTC)
- Now we are getting into theology, not my strong point. I guess what I was trying to say is that it is possible to imagine a belief in God, an active god who is observing and perhaps even intervening, without doing miracles. Miracles referring to things like curing the blind, the lame, etc out of the blue. Miracle in the sense that one must be proved before sainthood ( or is it 3? I'm not RC, I don't know for sure), in the Roman Catholic faith. Lyellin
- As far as I am concerned, causing a lost sock to be found counts as a miracle. Would you not count that, then? Morwen 22:16, Dec 26, 2003 (UTC)
- IMHO, that would depend on HOW the lost sock is found. If I pray for guidance, "God please help me find my sock," and then say, "Gee, I've just received guidance in the inwardness of my soul and now I remember where I left the sock!" -- no miracle. Believers will call that inspiration and secularists can call it the power of positive thinking. Neither side will call it a miracle. On the other hand, if the sock suddenly acquires the power of speech, and yells "HEY! I'm Under Your Pillow!" -- that would have to be a miracle. Deists must disbelieve in miracles but it is possible they can believe in divine inspiration in the inwardness of the soul, including inspirations that come in response to prayer. Just my thoughts, FWIW. --Christofurio 01:04, May 28, 2004 (UTC)
A textbook (European History) I read used "The Mechanic" for the metaphor describing God as opposed to the "The Divine Watchmaker". Maybe this could be used to describe the theistic view as a Mechanic would be more likely to be active with his work after its completion (Maintenence, Repair, etc...). This is just an idea I want to throw out there.
NOW IF THE IGNORANT PEOPLE CREATING EDITING CONFLICTS WISH THEY CAN EITHER INACCURATELY ATTRIBUTE MY STATEMENT TO ALL DEISTS OR BE INCORRECT BY TRYING TO APPLY OTHERS COMMENTS (including Deists) TO ME either way you are ignorant.
- Who are you? - Hephaestos|§ 05:34, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Plastering your name all over an article is more than just tacky, it's vandalism. RickK | Talk 05:34, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
If you really want to contribute-do it right. Looks like you have some good information so do it correctly and everyone will benefit. Do not put your name or all those bold statements in. Thanks. GrazingshipIV 05:36, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)
Actually I am a theoretical authority if not the scholastic authority regarding deism having studied / pondered the questions and issues for over 20 years as a deist in a comparative and Deist specific manner as such my ideas on Deism are unique and relevant in being distinct from many calling themselves Deists but whom I recognize not as fellow deists (maybe they are agnostics). Rare references I consulted spoke of the Deist g-d as not mysterious but reasonable meaning not supernatural (and not just without miracles or revelations which would be found acceptable as the miracles of nature; not just christian mystics but Buddhist, Moslem, Hindu, Jewish etc., in that Atheists dont believe in the supernatural but can be equally evasive and metaphyical Berkley Kant they too are opposed as are Empirists for similar reasons; whence the reason why many if not most Deists evolved into one materialist school or another).
None the less NON-SUPERNATURAL UNMYSTERIOUS was the used by the common organizations were referred to as the Temples of Reason. Many of the religious fathers having been the protectors during the revolutionary war made efforts so as to protect their parishes and parishioners. Herbert Aptheker Noted American Historian accurately spoke at length as to how the American Public was divided during the American Revolution.
There is no doubt in my mind that the clergy of the official church establishments (yes state religion was sanctioned until so time later after the revolution [much later e.g. Papist Roman Catholics, and Jews etc who were burdened and precluded while he Protesant Elite who often maintained a pro-british loyalist position during the war on pretexts actually feigned support of the revolution after the war) often played a some what conservative modest if not questionable role as it was said that on supporting the revolution "One-third loyal, one-third patriot, one-third undecided." (John Adams (“2. Loyalists a. 100,000 left the colonies4. Declaring Independence (WAYCROSS COLLEGE DR. COREY LESSEIG http://www.waycross.edu/faculty/coless/Am1lec.htm)
(inaccurately said to be 10-15% loyalist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_War_of_Independence)
Considering that the clergy are more astute polititians tied to the bread and butter of the issues (than their flock it suggest) many of the establishment clergy are suspect as actually having often pro-British with the exception of Deists and Masons (the later distinguished by their acceptance of a esoteric aspect to enlightenment.
Thomas Paine was a highly read author in that his pamplet “Common Sense” in the period in question out sold the bible and that a sizable proportion of the literate population read his best selling works (just to keep up with the gossip if not the issues). ( Thomas Paine and Common Sense (1) January 1776 // 120,000 copies by May (2) attack on all monarchy, but especially the "royal brute" George, Ibid.)
“Loyalists, that sizeable pro-British element, perhaps a majority when open war began, who had stood by established law and imperial unity against revolutionary upheaval” (http://www.canadianheritage.org/books/canada4.htm) “New York City, which was at that time more pro-British than England itself.“ (The Tribes and the States W. J. Sidis chapter 23, http://www.sidis.net/TSChap23.htm)
The question the colonial elite must have repeatedly asked each other is if the growing class hatred developing in the colonies could be focused against the pro-British elite, and be deflected from themselves, the national elite? (Lecture Notes 3 - The American Revolution African American History - Spring 1999 Department of History, St. John's University by Omar, Ali http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/4275/StJohnsLec3.html ). "about 40% of the population was pro-British. (The Presbyterian Rebellion ( by Harry Seabrook (harry@littlegeneva.com" http://www.littlegeneva.com/docs/presbyterian.htm )
If and specific sources are desired they should be requested though at present these should suffice though the insulting demands placed upon me were unreasonable and in fact fashioned not based on facts but close minded impresssions for which appologies will not be accepted and remembered. By the way as most "Deists" will tell you all "Deists" don't agree as to what is "Deism" or "Deists" hence the need for proper placement of quotation marks, references and notes (just like a doctoral theses. Does spelling really count if the message is conveyed? Einstein couldn't spell.).
It seems like some people enjoy changing this page without discussion here so two can play that game.
To Andrew Zito
Whatever sort of authority you claim to be on this subject, your style of writing is entirely inappropriate for Wikipedia. Please do note include self-references and self-citations in the body of the article. If you have published materials or websites, you can list them at the end of the article. Please refer to the Wikipedia:Manual of Style and the entire Wikipedia:Style and How-to Directory. older ≠ wiser 19:35, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
TO ALL YOU <snip>
ok I deleted all references to myself so you <snip> who don't know how to edit out personal referemces (eg user names) but hypocritical can discriminatorily and biasedly figure out how to delete everything thing including Thomas Paine's Photo and the extrenal links to groups you dont like <snip>.
- You're intemperate response does not inspire any confidence in your contributions and you do yourself a disservice with such outbursts. If your contributions have merit, then they'll stay, and if not, they'll be edited. Speaking for myself only, I saw no easy way to separate the bogus self-serving parts of what you write from anything that might be of value. I'm not an authority on Deism and so did not want to try to edit the article, but I could very easily spot the self-serving and inappropriate nature of your contributions. Hence the revert. Sorry if that offended you, but you might want to learn how things work around here before you get all huffy and start calling people names. older ≠ wiser
OH SO YOU ADMIT
YOU ARE NOT SPEAKING BASED ON MY MENTION AS AN AUTHORITY? THEN AREN't YOU THE IGNORANT PARTISAN SINCE YOU CAN"T DISTINGUISH ONE FROM THE OTHER? Doesn't that show how faulty your belief that every thing should be objective? But you wouldn't admit that? By the way my foul mouth and Fin temper and mood has nothing to do with it as John Lennon said you learned to "smile as you kill" and are as phony as they come. BY THE WAY THIS IS THE FOURTH OR FIFTH ATTACK ON MY PERSON WITHOUT YOU <snip> ADDRESSING THE SUBSTANCES OF ISSUES AS YOU ADMIT YOUR IGNORANCE SO YOU ARE MOSTLY DECEITFUL <snip>. AND AS I HAVE BETTER THINGS TO WASTE TIME WITH.Andrew Zito
- Then please, by all means, go and do better things with your time and leave us alone. older ≠ wiser 20:25, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC) BY THE WAY THIS <snip> Bkonrad very much admited he has no basis to revert the text he did so he can <snip>
Since this page doesn't accurately reflect the topic and since people wish to make arbitrary changes without discussion and mere accuse me wrongfully for the sake of accuracy it is better to have nothing insteand of the biased one sided inaccurate domatic views which are finding prominence in Wikipedia to which I OBJECT.
What documented evidence is there that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were Deists (as stated)?
THE CONTINUED CENSORSHIP OF THIS PAGE BY SOCALLED DIEST AGNOSTIC PANTHEIST LIBERAL ELEMENT CAN ONLY BE DISCRIBED AS TOTALITARIAN AND FASCIST