Fixing PV's mistake - huge text attributed to me. only small portion at the end was by me. |
my view |
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What a "comic". |
What a "comic". |
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Keep your "day job", David. :D |
Keep your "day job", David. :D |
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I don't claim to be on your side 100%. I only said I tried to help you in Judaism in adding a critical links section. I later came to agree that not all your links were appropriate. I will vote to have you blocked if you continue in this manner. Your approach is disruptive and not helpful to a community effort. If you would like to reform and become a useful contributor I will help you as much as I can although I will retain my own opinion and disagree when your statements seem incorrect or excessive. From here it is up to you. You can continue to claim your cabal of anti-Pauls or you can contribute to a group effort. - [[User:Texture|Tεx]][[User Talk:Texture|<font color=red>τ</font>]][[User:Texture|urε]] 22:33, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC) |
Revision as of 22:33, 21 April 2004
Talk:Cosmotheism/Archive 1
Talk:Cosmotheism/Archive 2
Talk:Cosmotheism/Archive 3
Talk:Cosmotheism/Archive 4
I'm restoring (yet again) the text that Paul Vogel keeps deleting rather than editing. Others are more than welcome to weigh in on whether the deleted text is NPOV or not. BCorr|Брайен 01:06, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)
The deleted text was just complete POV nonsense, and most especially, that stupid and "invented" term by David Gerard, which NO TRUE COSMOTHEISTS actually consider themselves to be!-PV
Piercean
Piercean is not an aceptable term, its used by no one, as paul suggests. find a better word or way to say it, as I tried to do awhile back Sam Spade 02:08, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- So what do they call themselves, or do they just claim to be the entirety of Cosmotheism - which they aren't? The only problem I had with your previous wording was that it seemed to claim the site was officially associated with Pierce himself in some way - David Gerard 07:38, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)
No Cosmotheists anywhere do call themselves "Piercean", which is the point. The http://www.cosmotheism.net or Cosmotheist website is not officially associated with Pierce at all, but, it was dedicated to him due to his three main cosmotheist writings: "The Path", "On Living Things", and "On Society".-PV
Evidence?
"all could also be said to be Pantheist"
Mormons can also claim that Carl Sagan a Christian but that does not make it true and this kind of propaganda does not belong in Wikipedia. JWSchmidt 03:24, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The "evidence" is from Webster's Unabridged Dictionary of 1996/1998, of which states that "pantheism" and "cosmotheism" are true synonyms, meaning "All in GOD and GOD in ALL". Which Mormons can claim Carl Sagan as one of their own? Where is your evidence for that "propaganda", JWSchmidt?-PV
- Providing a definition for "X-ism" and then saying that the views of some dead person are in some way related to the definition of X-ism does not mean that the person was an X-ist.
I agree, unless of course, those views were quite obviously x-ism and x-ist!-PV
- "Carl Sagan .... could also be said to be Pantheist" <- Only by someone wishing to re-write history, an activity that is not promoted by Wikipedia.
Hardly.
Carl Sagan's own pantheistic words and writings has and had indicated that he was indeed a "pantheist".-PV
- Sagan often discussed the idea that it is the unity of the cosmos that provides some scientists with a sense of wonder. He was often asked about god and never embraced the idea that god is anything more than a creation of people seeking to express their sense of wonder. Sagan felt comfortable expressing his sense of wonder without introducing god into the equation beyond the MENTION of how OTHERS make a larger role for god. JWSchmidt 14:46, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Not exactly true. You need to re-read or watch Cosmos again, JWSchmidt.-PV
- You support the positive claim that Sagan in some way had the idea of "Cosmos = God". It is incumbent upon you to provide the evidence to support your claim. JWSchmidt 01:12, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- That they claim them is relevant to mention. Go on, remove it and watch the edit war ... I'll stand back here with the popcorn - David Gerard 08:18, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)
No, it is only true by definition.
Again, the "evidence" is from Webster's Unabridged Dictionary of 1996/1998, of which states that "pantheism" and "cosmotheism" are true synonyms, meaning "All in GOD and GOD in ALL".-PV
- The Cosmotheism page seems like a war zone for religious zealots. When they restrict their efforts to such fringe pages they probably serve a marginally useful community function. Eventually they will grow tired of the war and leave Wikipedia in peace.
The only actual "religious zealots" are some bigots here that only wish to add their own POV and their own biased and POV "invented terms" like "Piercean" into a serious article on the religion of cosmotheism or classical pantheism. These POV bigots had re-started the "edit war" with their own additons of such obviously "obnoxious" and POV statements and "invented terms" and such false and typically slanderous and biased and POV links, which I have only deleted to maintain a Wiki NPOV.-PV
- Please don't delete external links because you disagree with their POV -- BCorr|Брайен 13:52, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)
I didn't delete those two external links because I had disagreed with them, but, only because these both had really nothing to do with COSMOTHEISM, the actual subject of the article, nor even with White separatism, and they were also obviously very biased POV's verses any Wiki NPOV's, and they were falsely equating "White supremacy" with "White separatism".-PV
- You are deleting them because you don't agree with them. Your reply to BCorr proves that. - Tεxτurε 16:02, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Nonsense. I don't agree with Brad Whitsel's nonsense article, either, but since it actually addresses "Cosmotheism" it should stay as a "criticism".-PV
I have reverted 191's edit to this talk page since it duplicated all the text and created a mess. It looks like a cut-and-paste error. - Tεxτurε 16:09, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Ok. Deleted POV links not related to article.-PV
- The duplicated entries are on this talk page. Your deleted links are your own POV and not necessarily correct. - Tεxτurε 17:03, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
What are you talking about, now, Texture? You are not making any sense.-PV
A POV against many of PV's POVs
I have just joined with others in reverting a deletion of links that PV seems insistent on preventing others from seeing. Some people can't seem to get the hints that most rational human society, and maybe indeed the whole universe, is in some sense against their particular forms of bigotry, far more than they are in any way for it.
I am a rather patient person, and have simply observed without comment for several days now the attempts at honest dialog and commentary, and the attempts to disrupt and discourage it, that have been made on some of the pages that PV is inclined to promote his POVs. Hypocrisies exist to the extreme, when people strain to make positive and absolute associations with people who would likely be repulsed and revolted by their particular views and ideas, and seek to eliminate any direct criticism of such views as they are inclined to promote as "irrelevant", and unworthy of any consideration.
It is a certainty that labels are always limited in their application, and can be dangerously misused and abused by those who delight in manipulating others impressions and will in dishonest ways. The most absurdly obnoxious and pathetically narrow minded of bigots will often rely upon them and various connotations that they have, to try and make their own particular bigotries seem almost sane and reasonable. Sometimes they will succeed for a time, with some people who are ignorant of some important details, but where information is freely available few remain fooled for very long.
It is not an entirely original observation to say that when a person is inclined to interrupt others, and to break up or eliminate other people's coherent statements of their views, opinions, and expressions of facts, it usually reveals a marked lack of having many of their own. Such behavior is often manifest among those unusually obsessed with the idea of winning over others they like to presume are "inferior", and in making any efforts they can at seeming right rather than in making any sincere effort at being so. One who is not familiar with the actual progression of the attempts at dialog, as they have occurred, can become very confused as to who, or is not, actually speaking and what points are attempting to be made. That certain individuals insist on making such interjections as disrupt the flow of others expressions, to thoroughly ravage any attempts by others to make their points in a cohesive manner, reveals an extreme rudeness, and an extreme inability to even tolerate cohesive and rational dialog and argument. They say such things as if you don't like their rudeness, then "Don't talk to me", in attempts to mantain their own vain sense of superiority.
From one of the sites of advocacy of "Cosmotheism" one can find such statements as "My purpose is the Creator's Purpose" – This may be true of any individual, but is true of all individuals as well… and their own particular sense of their own purposes, and that of God's, are not therefore synonymous. Some people's primary purpose often seems to be to show others how stupid and bigoted a human being can become. It proceeds to "My path is the Path of the Creator's Self-realization", and "My path is the Path of Divine Consciousness", which again can apply to any individual no more than it applies to ALL individual's and ALL paths, something some people seem intent on ignoring or denying. And finally: "My destiny is Godhood". Most pantheists that I am aware of would totally reject the idea of mortals becoming "gods" let alone "God", and would vigorously assert that though God is indeed in all, and that all are in some sense "within" God, mortals do not ever become God, and cannot. The part may be entirely of the total and ultimate Reality, but never is nor can be the totality of Reality. Those who would insist otherwise are to that extent solipsists, rather than pantheists. I believe that most would assert that some mortals can and do become aware that their own existence, and that of everyone else's is to some extent, and for some reasons and purposes a portion of God's ultimate will and omnipresent being. Even so, some people are inclined to focus on the truths of love, and the love of truth, on honest and respectful communion with other souls and minds in a spirit of appreciation and generosity, and might be compared to brain cells and nerves, eager to form mutually beneficial connections, and some are more focused only upon themselves, their narrow concerns, and upon that which is to be excluded, ignored, and denigrated, often very improperly. These individuals can be more appropriately compared to cancer cells consuming an organ's resources while obliviously disdainful of the health of the whole organ or organism of which it is a part, or in a far more familiar and common analogy, to rectums. When the pressures of poorly digested facts and ideas are at work, there can often seem to be no end to the foulness that can emerge from them. One can refrain from calling any specific person a "rectal cavity full of bovine excrement", and still describe the metaphoric associations that are at work, in such ways as to make it plain as to whom, and to what ideas, such terms and metaphors most aptly apply.
I thoroughly expect that PV will break up my assertions with interjections of his own, and would be delighted if in this one instance at least he could actually resist his impulses to be rudely reactive, and actually prove me mistaken. - Moby 01:17, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I am "Rudely reactive"? Hardly. LOL! :D
Was your rant above, Mody, really just lying and hypocritical and typical Psychological projection? Absolutely. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Racialist This is quite typical of "SSEE" or "Malignant Narcissistic" mental pathologies. [2] -PV
- Sir, your behaviour on this talk page falls outside the bounds of our No personal attacks policy. Please familiarize yourself with this policy immediately, cease all personal attacks, and desist from engaging in this activity, or you risk being blocked from editing. - Fennec 13:44, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
These individuals can be more appropriately compared to cancer cells consuming an organ's resources while obliviously disdainful of the health of the whole organ or organism of which it is a part, or in a far more familiar and common analogy, to rectums.
Thank you for making my points so clear! LOL! -PV
Deleted these two slanderous, false, and POV links that are not related to the Cosmotheism article.
- Pseudo-Pantheism (Encyclopedia4U)
It is generally agreed that the most widespread form of pseudo-pantheism in existence today is the view sometimes termed "cosmotheism." Although an older edition of Webster's dictionary defines 'cosmotheism' as synonomous with pantheism, the term has taken on certain connotations in modern usage, owing chiefly to its use by Dr. William Pierce to describe his racially-hierarchical system of thought. Cosmotheism as it appears today, promoted chiefly on the internet, is widely considered to be a racist ideology which has appropriated the terminology of pantheism in order to legitimize itself.
- A Blemish on the Blossom: Pantheism and White-Supremacist Hate Groups by Esther Hugenholtz (Pantheist Index)
However, we should be alert and try to ‘ban’ these sort of nazi-characters from our own Internet pages and discussion forums. We should inform those new to Pantheism that the large majority of Pantheism is in fact benevolent and that these hate-groups luckily form a tiny, but loud, minority. Let’s make sure they stay that way.
Within our organizations we can formulate even more clearly our egalitarian and democratic stances to make sure that the message gets across as clear as possible. Formulating a Credo, like the World Pantheist Movement has done, may have a twofold effect: firstly, it clearly states our ethical position and secondly, it deters those with bigoted views from joining or seeking contact.
Neo-nazis try to infiltrate all sorts of religions and philosophies in order to recruit. We are not the only victims in their book. Nonetheless, their presence is a blemish on the blossom of Pantheism. But the blossom in itself is still as radiant as ever. Don’t be deterred from Pantheism because of a few hate-filled fringe groups.
It is quite clear just who or whom is the actual "HATE GROUP" and just who or whom is actually quite "hate-filled".
Another case of Psychological projection at it's typical worst!!!
-PV
- Restored links. Your assertion that they are slander is POV. The links are not POV, although the linked pages may be... and they are labeled as criticism. - Fennec 15:53, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
BS!
They are quite SLANDEROUS as anyone linking to them can CLEARLY SEE.
Fair criticism of one's religion is one thing, but, these two are so obviously quite false and biased and POV subjective.
Neither one fairly belongs within the article on Cosmotheism.-PV
Useful balance?????
Hardly!!!
Maybe then we should provide such biased and POV and clearly slanderous links critical of "Judaism", or of any other "religion", within the rest of the Wiki Encyclopedia?-PV
- See Judaism#Critics for such an external link - Tεxτurε 16:35, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Let us see if we can add quite a few more "external links" to it:
- [3] - Critics of current modern "Jewish/Zionist Supremacism" and the immorality of "Malignant Narcissism" and its typical lying hypocrisy and psychological projection
and then we will watch and see the hypocritical lying censorship and banning and reverting etc, etc, ad nauseum, that would soon follow?-PV
PS--That didn't take very long to prove my proven point at all! LOL! :D http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Judaism&action=history
- Depends on if they are responsible links and not more appropriate somewhere else. I think there is some latitude in the "critics" section. - Tεxτurε 16:45, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
It is quite clear that the two links I had deleted from cosmotheism criticism were not "responsible ones", whatsoever. However, it is also clear that the POV bias and slander of cosmotheism is really so over the top and is so completely false as only to make any actual and valid criticisms of cosmotheism also look quite stupid and petty and false and POV biased. If that is your foolish and POV intention, then, so be it.-PV
PS--The "latitude" for actually determining any such "credible or fair or inflamatory analysis or criticism", http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Judaism&action=history is really only given to all such typical lying hypocrites, obviously! LOL! :D
- Let's try removing inflamatory analysis that does not exist in the critical links on this page, shall we? Be fair about it if you plan to do it. - Tεxτurε 22:02, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
You don't seem to have any problem with the "false and inflamatory analysis" of those two "critical links" of yours to the religion of Cosmotheism, though, do you? That is why your asking for "fairness" for Judaism when you and your ilk are being so "unfair" yourself, regarding the criticism of cosmotheism is the just height of lying hypocrisy, Texture.-PV
- Are you aware that I do not write content for this article as you claim? I have only tried to prevent content removal or twisting that is not accepted by the majority. I am trying to be fair here just as I am trying to be fair at Judaism. Check my record. - Tεxτurε 16:09, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- To further clarify, those "two.. links" are not mine nor did I call them "critical" in any comment or summary - Tεxτurε 16:14, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"Fair"? For "Balance"?
Sure.
Like this, for example?
Pseudo-Pantheism
Pseudo-Pantheism has been deleted in accordance with Wikipedia:Votes for Deletion. If you wish to recreate the article please discuss it at Wikipedia:Votes for undeletion. - Fennec 15:43, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"False accusations" are "personal attacks" are they not?
Would you ever ban yourself for ever doing so?
You had ONLY deleted the NPOV version of the article, and then added the slanderous POV version of it to cosmotheism in a link!!!
It is quite clear that what articles or links "deserve" deletion really has nothing to do with either "fairness nor even with factual accuracy or balance" but only with the selfishly subjective and egotistical and POV bigotries of a mob or cabal of censors, liars, and hypocrites, that actually do not uphold the wiki NPOV, whatsoever.-PV
There is no cabal. - Fennec 16:08, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The actual and objective facts here do indicate otherwise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AndyL#White_Separatist -PV
For example for Judaism and the Talk Pages:
Critics Is there any objection to listing an example or two of critics to Judaism? It does not need to have a POV analysis attached to it but should show who the critics are. - Tεxτurε 22:40, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Yes. Anti-Judaism and Anti-Semitism have no place on the Judaism website, and that is what these two links were. I have no objection to the article covering conflicts between Jews and other groups (e.g. Christians). I also think there is value to covering conflicts among Jews. But as a culture that has been in the minority for virtually 2,500 years, it is inappropriate and offensive to have a section on "critics." By the way, I wouldn't support a link on the "Christianity" page on "critics." Can you imagine a link on the German page called "critics?" Sure, the article can cover the Nazi period, or talk about current issues dividing Germans -- but that isn't the same thing as criticizing "Germany." Of the two links I deleted, one was purely anti-Semitic. The other was in my opinion a silly but certainly not offensive critique of a book by Telushkin. It can't be represented as a critique of "Judaism," it is practically a book review. Put it someplace else. Slrubenstein
The above is by another user. My text is below: Paul, what is your objection to "critical analysis" versus "analysis" for infidels.org? It is an accurate statement that the analysis does not agree with Judaism. - Tεxτurε 16:20, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Texture, the point is that if you can allow any pov "criticisms" of one religion, ie. cosmotheism, then the same should hold true for Judaism.
Therefore, this link:
[1] - Critics of current modern "Jewish/Zionist Supremacism" and the immorality of "Malignant Narcissism" and its typical lying hypocrisy and psychological projection This link should be allowed as a "criticism" or you must remove the similar offensive pov links from cosmotheism.
The title given to this link is POV. A more approproate NPOV title would be indicate somehow that the content at the other end of the link claims this, that, and the hypocrisy thing. Furthermore, I urge you to state your point, don't prove it. - Fennec 17:20, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Criticism The Turner Diaries and Cosmotheism: William Pierce's Theology of Revolution by Brad Whitsel (Nova Religio)
Gods of the Blood: The Pagan Revival and White Separatism, by Mattias Gardell (ISBN 0822330717) A Blemish on the Blossom: Pantheism and White-Supremacist Hate Groups by Esther Hugenholtz (Pantheist Index)
Pseudo-Pantheism (Encyclopedia4U)
Any hue and cry of "anti-semitism" or "nazism" etc. ad nauseum for such a link is not relevant, if one is being hypocritical in actually allowing similar pov and slanderous links on cosmotheism, or any other religion, within Wiki articles.-PV
PS-For quite clear examples of their typical lying hypocrisy and the removal and deletion of any "criticisms" of Judaism from the page history section on Judaism:
(cur) (last) . . 14:10, 13 Apr 2004 . . RK (Removing (again) a link which is clarly Nazi and anti-Semitic.)
(cur) (last) . . 14:04, 13 Apr 2004 . . 24.45.99.191
(cur) (last) . . 00:59, 13 Apr 2004 . . Slrubenstein
(cur) (last) . . 22:55, 12 Apr 2004 . . Mkmcconn (This link does not belong, if Wikipedia aims to be a credible source; but at least its contents should be more accurately described, as long as it remains)
(cur) (last) . . m 22:34, 12 Apr 2004 . . Texture (Reverted edits by 68.237.92.227 to last version by Texture)
(cur) (last) . . 22:17, 12 Apr 2004 . . 68.237.92.227
(cur) (last) . . 21:59, 12 Apr 2004 . . Texture (removing POV - link description should not be an analysis of what would be found)
(cur) (last) . . 21:13, 12 Apr 2004 . . 24.45.99.191
(cur) (last) . . m 20:46, 12 Apr 2004 . . Slrubenstein (Reverted edits by 24.45.99.191 to last version by Slrubenstein)
(cur) (last) . . 20:37, 12 Apr 2004 . . 24.45.99.191
Since any organization of your statements was lost I won't try to insert this in the proper place. Your latest addition to this talk page seems to be a rant against many people and not me. I have tried to support your inclusion of criticisms into Judaism although I disagree that you should be allowed to add detailed analysis to the link description.
If you don't appreciate my support I will back off and let you deal with the issue in the all-or-nothing manner that seems to be the only solution for you. I would rather see your POV included in others POV in a stable manner. I'm sure you don't agree with how I see it, but what can I do. - Tεxτurε 18:07, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I have revised the critical link description there, at Judaism to be far more NPOV and factually accurate, even if what it links to is not.
However, I am quite sure that your ilk will still delete it and then will still only keep the exact same kind of critical slanderous and pov linked nonsence about cosmotheism, like the hypocritical liars and bigots and psychological projectionists that they usually and almost always are.
We shall see.-PV
- I formatted your new addition and did not find it preblematic in the current form. BTW, what is my "ilk"? - Tεxτurε 18:26, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Ok. FYI: Entry Word: ilk Function: noun Text: Synonyms TYPE, breed, character, description, kidney, kind, nature, sort, stripe, variety It is only up to you, to some extent, to actually decide that question.-PV
- No, it isn't up to me. I am asking you to define your terms as you have used them. You have made a statement of my "ilk" will do this or that and I'm curious what you may be mislabelling me as. - Tεxτurε 20:55, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This same "ilk", perhaps, that always refuses to learn the lessons of history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AndyL#White_Separatist -PV [signature added by No-One Jones]
- I find this to be a personal attack. You know nothing about me and are grouping me with some unrevealed group that does not learn from its history. - Tεxτurε 14:30, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
That is not any any "personal attack", whatsoever.
However, your falsely calling me a "vandal" and then falsely "censoring me" and then falsely "banning me", was actually a "personal attack". Here too:
"Thanks for the heads-up on PV. It looks like it is temporarily being managed. The problem is, anyone who uses anonymous IP numbers is hard to block effectively. A temporary solution is to protect the page. I am a sysop but I have been involved in the dispute so I cannot protect the page. I suggest that if he reappears you ask another sysop to block the page. I brought up the matter on the list-serve and it was pretty much ignored. I think we have managed to control PV by reverting, but if he comes back there is a need for something more serious and I am not sure if the mediation process is the appropriate thing. Slrubenstein
The above is by another user. My text is below: anon IP are normally hard to block but he obviously has dedicated IPs that would be easy to block indefinitely. The same ones get used repeatedly making me believe (depending on time of day) that these are work and home. - Tεxτurε 20:16, 20"
- Reread your quote above now that I have separated out the only portion by me. - Tεxτurε 22:26, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Vandal is a term I use because it applies in my opinion. I don't know why you put "censoring me" in quotes since that is your claim, not a quote from me. I have never banned you. (I am involved in the conflicts that I would ban you for, therefore, I am constrained from doing so.) - Tεxτurε 15:15, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The ilk of which you are a demonstrated "member" is the same ilk or group of typical "lying hypocrites" that have here "censored" any valid criticism of Judaism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Judaism by falsely calling it "Anti-semitism" and that have only allowed or that have always falsely inserted and reverted only their own quite bigoted pov's and only their own quite deliberately false slanders and "criticisms" of other religions, such as cosmotheism, but, do not allow any valid "criticism" of their own Jewish or Marxist "religion" or "dogmatisms": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AndyL#White_Separatist
- Really? Then why was I fighting to get your critical links included in Judaism? - Tεxτurε 15:15, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Jewish/Marxist slanderous "Criticisms" of cosmotheism:
The Turner Diaries and Cosmotheism: William Pierce's Theology of Revolution by Brad Whitsel (Nova Religio) Gods of the Blood: The Pagan Revival and White Separatism, by Mattias Gardell (ISBN 0822330717) A Blemish on the Blossom: Pantheism and White-Supremacist Hate Groups by Esther Hugenholtz (Pantheist Index) Pseudo-Pantheism (Encyclopedia4U)
If you are not a member of that "ilk", then don't BEHAVE like such "ilk", and lie and censor any valid "criticisms", or only allow your own pov and quite slanderous and false "criticisms":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AndyL#White_Separatist
-PV
ps-I have revised the critical link description there, at Judaism to be far more NPOV and factually accurate, even if what it links to is not.
However, I am quite sure that your ilk will still delete it and then will still only keep the exact same kind of critical slanderous and pov linked nonsence about cosmotheism, like the hypocritical liars and bigots and psychological projectionists that they usually and almost always are.
We shall see.-PV
Really?
"Thanks for the heads-up on PV. It looks like it is temporarily being managed. The problem is, anyone who uses anonymous IP numbers is hard to block effectively. A temporary solution is to protect the page. I am a sysop but I have been involved in the dispute so I cannot protect the page. I suggest that if he reappears you ask another sysop to block the page. I brought up the matter on the list-serve and it was pretty much ignored. I think we have managed to control PV by reverting, but if he comes back there is a need for something more serious and I am not sure if the mediation process is the appropriate thing. Slrubenstein
The above is by another user. My text is below: anon IP are normally hard to block but he obviously has dedicated IPs that would be easy to block indefinitely. The same ones get used repeatedly making me believe (depending on time of day) that these are work and home. - Tεxτurε 20:16, 20"
Some "help"?
- Reread your quote above now that I have separated out the only portion by me. - Tεxτurε 22:26, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
You had falsely and personally insulted me by calling me a "vandal".
What do you expect?
I have demonstrated the "lying hypocrisy" and psychological projection of all those that have "slandered" cosmotheism in their false and slanderous and pov Jewish/Marxist criticisms, whilest these same pov bigots only reverted and banned anyone that linked to any valid "criticisms" of Judaism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AndyL#White_Separatist
-PV
PS--For example:
From: Fred Bauder <fredbaud@...> Subject: Re: Paul Vogel's anti-Semitism Newsgroups: gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.english Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:44:26 +0000
Believe it or not, it is best to request mediation on this matter with him, although I would vote to accept this matter for arbitration as it sits now (although I know certain other arbitrators would not).
Fred
From: "steven l. rubenstein" <rubenste-GtutR9TLYbWHXe+LvDLADg <at> public.gmane.org> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l-g2DCOkC13y2GglJvpFV4uA <at> public.gmane.org> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 15:04:58 -0400 To: wikien-l-g2DCOkC13y2GglJvpFV4uA <at> public.gmane.org Subject: [WikiEN-l] Paul Vogel's anti-Semitism
Paul Vogel has been adding an anti-Semitic link to the Judaism page. I explained in detail on the talk page why I think this is inappropriate, and I deleted the link. Although some other users believe that such a link is acceptable as long as it is clearly identified, I think if Wikipedia is going to have any links to anti-Semitic material it should be on the anti-Semitism page.
In any event, after I explained why I deleted the link, Vogel responded, "Any hue and cry of "anti-semitism" or "nazism" etc. ad nauseum for such a link is not relevant, if one is being hypocritical in actually allowing similar pov and slanderous links on cosmotheism, or any other religion, within Wiki articles.-PV " -- a response that ignored my explanation entirely.
I replied, "I am not "allowing" slanderous links on the cosmotheism page. Two rights do not make a wrong. If you have a problem on another site, seek mediation -- don't take out your frustrations here."
And then Vogel made clear the anti-Semitic logic by which problems on the cosmotheism page are really "Jewish" problems: "Aren't you? Each one of those 4 slanderous POV articles and each one linked as "criticisms" on the cosmotheism page have been written by "Jews", and you have not ever protested and ever insisted upon their actual "removal" have you? The problem is on THIS SITE, WIKIPEDIA. The lying hypocrisy of your own "ilk" is responsible for this nonsense, and so it actually is YOUR OWN PROBLEM. Unfortunately, there is no effective medication for psychological projection on your and your own ilk's part, but, hope springs eternal!.-"
Do I need to explain my outrage? Vogel doesn't identify the people working on the cosmotheism as wikipedians but as "Jews." He doesn't identify me as a wikipedian but solely as a "Jew." And because I am a Jew, he holds me responsible for what other "Jews" have done on another site.
This use of "Jew" as a slur; the identification of my "ilk" as hypocrites, reeks of anti-Semitism. If this itself does not merit banning, I certainly think some strong action should be taken.
Thanks,
Steve
Steven L. Rubenstein Associate Professor Department of Sociology and Anthropology Bentley Annex Ohio University Athens, Ohio 45701
- So, no response to your false accusation that I banned you? No response to the fact that I tried to support your additions of criticisms to Judaism? I supported your point that it was not above similar critical links. I did not expect your attack after I did so. I have learned. - Tεxτurε 16:17, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
So, no apologetic response to your false accusation and personal insult of calling me a "vandal"??? Your own censorous "ilk" had banned me, even if you, personally, did not.
"User:66.2.156.69 Anonymous troll vandalising Judaism, and Holocaust. Reverts etcAndyL 03:13, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC) Do we need to quickpoll this user? If he continues, I'd feel comfortable giving him a day off on my own discretion - and I suspect dozens of admins would agree with me. Pakaran. 03:11, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I agree with you Pakaran. This is an IP user, and the activity seems to be simple vandalism that clearly violates NPOV. If the user continues I will ban the IPs for 24 hours and protect any of the pages if nessecary, such as the user coming back under another IP and re-editing the pages in question with the same vandalism. Seems a simple issue to me. --Flockmeal 03:17, Apr 14, 2004 (UTC)
As I understand it this person had been blocked at one (or more) points for 24 hours with no effect. Now that it is clear that he is an anti-semite using Wikipedia as a platform to spread anti-semetic views, I believe his should be banned. His contributions to articles are at the very best contentious -- but usually they amount to no kmore than adding obscure and self-serving links to neo-nazi websites. On talk pages his anti-Semitism is clear. When I wrote, on the Judaism talk page, that a link to an anti-semitic site is inappropriate, he replied that people were placing inappropriate remarks on the cosmotheism page. This is very bad behavior at wikipedia -- no contributor should "punish" one page begause of something that happened on another page. More importantly, he is punishing me for what others have done, an example of collective guilt that makes perfect sense in his anti-semitism, but not in a wikipedia community. He practically said that Jews control wikipedia, which is a classic anti-semitic stance. I think he should be banned. Slrubenstein 12:31, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
No change, no improvement. When is there going to be some action?AndyL 03:41, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Just ban this idiot. Don't go through quickpolls since this is unambiguous vandalism. And do it quick. Ban the IP before he/she gets a user name, which complicates things when we need to ban vandals. 172 20:20, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I've just banned the IP. Along with hard-banned User:Zog, this Nazi scumbag has no place on WP. 172 20:26, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This should not be the place to list vandalizing anons. I agree with 172. - Tεxτurε 20:38, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This user has not vandalized anything, only expressed a strong POV. silsor 20:43, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)
I was not voting. Only agreeing that anon vandals should not be Quickpolled and should be banned. I haven't voted (and I don't even see anywhere to vote.) - Tεxτurε 20:54, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Silsor, this user wasn't guilty of, say, childish Michael-style vandalism, but he/she's in league with other POV trolls/hard-banned vandals (e.g., JoeM and Zog) who couldn't function as constructive editors or writers on WP. 172 21:05, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Vandalism is deliberate mischief, but it seems this user believes what s/he is writing. Antisemitism is not against any policy and neither is being "in league" (which I have not seen) with other people. I have reviewed all of this user's edits and I think we need to treat his/her POV in the same way we would treat any other user's POV. silsor 21:16, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)
User:216.99.245.135 possibly same anonymous troll as 66.2.156.69. Same behaviour as above. AndyL 03:13, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
See my comment above. Slrubenstein 12:31, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)"
It is clear that those "criticism" links to cosmotheism are both very slanderous and false, and yet you have "done nothing" to have them deleted.
My "attack" only came after your own quite "false accusation" and "personal insult" of "vandalism" about me.
Learn from your own bias and slander of others, Texture, such that
people in such selfish and pov "glass houses" should not throw such stones!-PV
- You can continue to quote other people but you have made no proof of me. I openly admitted my opinion of your earlier activities as "vandalism". I explained why on numerous occassions. I won't take your time to define it again.
I am not any "vandal", regardless of your own "definition" of it.-PV
- You haven't answered my question. Instead you quoted a lot of other people who you feel are personally against you and tucked into those quotes is one from me: "I was not voting. Only agreeing that anon vandals should not be Quickpolled and should be banned. I haven't voted".
You hadn't answered nor apologized for your own false accusation and personal insult of "vandalism" and your own bigoted agreement with banning me, thereby. -PV
- You repeatedly ignore my attempt to help you. I guess you can't generate a good "righteous indignation" by giving credit to any assistance you get. Feel free to reply although I may not. This is not a conversation, discussion, or debate. It is a chance for you to rant against others. (made clear by the verbatim posting of this in Judaism and here.) - Tεxτurε 17:16, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I find it quite curious that you consider falsely calling me a "vandal" and being in agreement with banning me, thereby, "helping me" or "assisting" me??? What I would consider "helpful" or "assisting" would be your own "righteous indignation" of insisting that alternative POV's be allowed within Wikipedia and that a "cabal" of Wikipedia pov bigots not be allowed to only have their own POV's represented here, as opposed to upholding the Wiki NPOV policy? My rants are all about maintaining the Wiki NPOV, and that means ALWAYS allowing alternative POV's within ANY articles, and whether you "personally support" them or not.-PV
PS--If you allow such "criticism links" to cosmotheism then the same should apply to Judaism:
Criticism
- Freud's criticism of the ancient origins of Judaism and how it de-evolved away from the original ethical Judaism also later advocated by the prophets
- Jews as a chosen people
- Jewish ethnocentrism
- David Duke's critical historical analysis of "Jewish Supremacy" and its impact on the modern world
- Anti-Semitism
- http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/guido_deimel/judaism.html Judaism and Jewish Apologetics] - Critical analysis of the moral aspects of parts of Judaism; from Infidels.Org
- Piety and Power: The World of Jewish Fundamentalism David Landau, Hill and Wang, 1993
- http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0745308198/102-2015385-6701711?v=glance Jewish History Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3000 Years]
- I supported you when you first added critical links to Judaism. I reverted the first attempts to remove the links without discussion. (Check the page history and discussion page.) I later agreed that specific links were excessive and not valid for balance. Later efforts instead provided links inside wikipedia that seemed appropriate and some of the critical links were kept. I was satisfied with this compromise as it retains links critical of Judaism. I don't agree with your current additions and will not enter into further discussion about Judaism on the Cosmotheism talk page. The discussion is not related to Cosmotheism. - Tεxτurε 18:57, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Stop deleting the valid links to "criticisms", http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Judaism&action=history just because you don't happen in your own pov to like them and do falsely call them "Anti-Semitic". Thanks! :D -PV
While I agree that there should be critical links to Judaism I do not agree with the extreme links being suggested by Paul. - Tεxτurε 17:52, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Why not?
You seem to agree with the "extreme" critical "links" to cosmotheism??? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmotheism#Criticism If you allow these Jewish/Marxist slanderous "critical links" within the cosmotheism article, then, so should you allow my "critical links" to Judaism, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism#Criticism both here and above and within that article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cosmotheism -PV
Your "lying hypocrisy" has just been exposed above and made quite clear.
Obviously, any such "censorship" of "criticism links" is only ok with you and only when certain "topics" and only when a certain "religion" or only when some specific and certain "ilk" is "concerned", right Texture?
[snip rant -- Paul, if you must babble about a different article, do it on that article's talk page. This page is for talking about cosmotheism, not whatever article is sending you into a tizzy right now. —No-One Jones]
(cur) (last) . . 01:50, 20 Apr 2004 . . Mirv (talk:cosmotheism is for TALKing about COSMOTHEISM, not ranting about whatever subject happens to be on your mind)
My "tizzy"? LOL! Hardly. :D
Well, Mirv, I am talking about cosmotheism, and the "ilk", like you, that is responsible for slandering it, lying hypocritically, and then censoring the TRUTH by always falsely calling me a "vandal", "troll", "anti-Semite", "Nazi", etc, ad nauseum, or whatever false pov bigoted "personal insult" that you and your "ilk" has smeared me with in your own typical pov hatred, bigotry, and obvious psychological projection. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AndyL#White_Separatist If you don't like it, stop doing it.-PV
- Okay, then, explain what this text has to do with cosmotheism . . . and this too, please. —No-One Jones 02:29, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
[text from talk:Holocaust snipped as irrelevant to this article]
- To be clear: By "explain" I did not mean "paste the text back in again"; I meant "tell me why that text from talk:Holocaust is relevant to cosmotheism". It's not that difficult, really. . .
--No-One Jones
Indeed!
That is why I did so, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Cosmotheism&oldid=3260950 and that is why you had "deleted it".
What they ALL DO have to do with cosmotheism is that the TRUTH is considered SACRED to all TRUE COSMOTHEISTS, and for its OWN SAKE, period.
This is not something that I would really expect either you nor your pov ilk of "lying hypocrites" to ever actually understand.
Therefore, we do not appreciate such censorous "lying hypocrites". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Quickpolls
-PV
I told you so...
But, you had to find out for yourselves. Ah well. Soon he will be gone, I'm sure. Wikipedia will join the other 20-30 internet sites and forums that have banned him.
Nat 03:00, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"20-30 other internet sites and forums have banned" me, Nat?
Really?
Even if it actually had been that many, what "Naturyl", Nat, aka James D. Quirk, the Director of the Universal "Pan-Atheist" Society, and his "ilk" has ever honestly ever actually said is WHY, and that being that they can't stand nor abide ANYONE posting only the WHOLE TRUTHS of REALITY, as opposed to only THEIR OWN SELFISHLY SUBJECTIVE and EGOTISTICAL and EGOISTIC POV and DOGMATISMS.
IF ever I was banned or censored, from any site or forum, that has been the actual factual REASON, totally regardless of what such "lying hypocrites" like "Jim" have ever said only to "slander me" and to "personally insult me", and to "smear me" and to "character assassinate me" and all only to ultimately "ban and censor" me and thereby CENSOR and BAN ANY ALTERNATIVE POV or even ANY NPOV that they won't actually ever uphold nor allow. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Naturyl -PV
Indeed! :D And most especially, those that do so, and by doing so, are only being typical "lying hypocrites" and pov bigots and censors! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Naturyl -PV
PS--Here is my own "prediction", Sam. If you continue to uphold "fairness" and "rationality" and the "Wiki NPOV", against these "ilk" of "lying hypocrites" and censors, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Paul_Vogel and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AndyL#White_Separatist and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sam_Spade/_-_archive_April_2004#I_must_object etc. ad nauseum... then soon you will be the "next target" of their SSEE pov slander and smear campaigns and then you will be banned and censored, too!
- But only if he "greatly" increases his "use" of quotation "marks" - DavidWBrooks 14:47, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
What a "comic". Keep your "day job", David. :D
I don't claim to be on your side 100%. I only said I tried to help you in Judaism in adding a critical links section. I later came to agree that not all your links were appropriate. I will vote to have you blocked if you continue in this manner. Your approach is disruptive and not helpful to a community effort. If you would like to reform and become a useful contributor I will help you as much as I can although I will retain my own opinion and disagree when your statements seem incorrect or excessive. From here it is up to you. You can continue to claim your cabal of anti-Pauls or you can contribute to a group effort. - Tεxτurε 22:33, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)