SashiRolls (talk | contribs) mNo edit summary |
→Discuss this story: Reply Tag: Reply |
||
Line 32: | Line 32: | ||
Strange enough, this is not the first time I heard about admin with sockpuppets. The Dutch Wikipedia had also a few cases. Probably the current election and control is failing. How can that be fixed? <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">[[User:The Banner|<span style="color:green">The Banner</span>]] [[User talk:The Banner|<i style="color:maroon">talk</i>]]</span> 11:40, 6 November 2023 (UTC) |
Strange enough, this is not the first time I heard about admin with sockpuppets. The Dutch Wikipedia had also a few cases. Probably the current election and control is failing. How can that be fixed? <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">[[User:The Banner|<span style="color:green">The Banner</span>]] [[User talk:The Banner|<i style="color:maroon">talk</i>]]</span> 11:40, 6 November 2023 (UTC) |
||
:In cases like this one, I would probably agree with what {{u|Anomie}} and {{u|OwenBlacker}} noted below (and I also liked {{u|Ganesha811}}'s reference to [[xkcd:810]]): Any "fix" would require a fundamental reworking of how editing on Wikipedia works since anonymity is a central corner-stone and that would most likely be even worse since there a number of highly respected editors and admins that do pride their anonymity and who would probably quit if they had to out themselves in the name of preventing such socking. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 19:35, 7 November 2023 (UTC) |
|||
If any saga needs an [[interrobang]], this is it. Self-selected [[Sleeper agent|sleeper agent]] and [[performance art]] come to mind... We can't foresee any and every [[edge case]], after all! [[User:Kencf0618|kencf0618]] ([[User talk:Kencf0618|talk]]) 12:34, 6 November 2023 (UTC) |
If any saga needs an [[interrobang]], this is it. Self-selected [[Sleeper agent|sleeper agent]] and [[performance art]] come to mind... We can't foresee any and every [[edge case]], after all! [[User:Kencf0618|kencf0618]] ([[User talk:Kencf0618|talk]]) 12:34, 6 November 2023 (UTC) |
Revision as of 19:35, 7 November 2023
Discuss this story
What does "extremely banned" mean? StAnselm (talk) 03:47, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- my guess is "unappealable indefinite ban". ltbdl (talk) 03:57, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Is it actually unappealable though? The remedy specified that Wifione can appeal after 12 months (whether the appeal would be accepted is another story). Ian P. Tetriss (talk) 19:07, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- I believe it's merely a turn-of-phrase, using a modifier for a term that can't be modified because it's binary. "I tried to ask Abraham Lincoln about the quote but it turns out he's exceedingly dead." GMGtalk 11:44, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
This is kind of a surprise, but I think this could easily have been avoided with proper screening measures. The fact they were able to fool the community for so long is more than concerning. I am not saying that all admins need to be screened, but there should be this expectation of trust. I don't think any person that has abused trust in the past should ever be allowed to become an admin, period. Awesome Aasim 03:48, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- What screening procedure do you have that would've "easily" detected that Lourdes was a sock? Certainly the many editors and admins who supported and nominated them for adminship didn't notice anything amiss. Galobtter (talk) 03:58, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- wasn't the "lourdes" account checkusered? ltbdl (talk) 04:02, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
* Pppery * it has begun... 04:11, 6 November 2023 (UTC)Just to put it to bed, Lourdes was checked last night. Common UAs and exclusive proxy use for the data retention period. Izno (talk) 15:34, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Aren't checkusers supposed to be done at the time of adminship? A checkuser will reveal stuff like proxy use and alternative accounts. The whole point of emailing ArbCom about any alternative accounts is to come clean that there was not any breaches of trust or community expectations. Awesome Aasim 15:05, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
Aren't checkusers supposed to be done at the time of adminship?
- no. never. ltbdl (talk) 15:08, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- I think we should, especially because adminship is a position of community trust. An administrator should be trusted to have disclosed all alternative accounts they know they have created and used currently to either the community or to the arbitration committee.
- Maybe we can add the following line to Wikipedia:Administrators: "An administrator who is found once to be using one more alternative accounts inconsistent with the policy on sockpuppetry shall have their administrator rights removed. The rights may only be regained after a successful request for adminship." Awesome Aasim 18:19, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Aren't checkusers supposed to be done at the time of adminship? A checkuser will reveal stuff like proxy use and alternative accounts. The whole point of emailing ArbCom about any alternative accounts is to come clean that there was not any breaches of trust or community expectations. Awesome Aasim 15:05, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Comment I was unaware of this arbitration case but had suspicions about Lourdes and was surprised when they passed their RfA (Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Lourdes 2) so decisively. I know hindsight is 20/20 though. Liz Read! Talk! 04:46, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- I voted for Eostrix... Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:35, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
This episode isn't just a one-off scandal; it's symptomatic of a more pervasive ailment that could undermine the very foundation of Wikipedia: trust. If an abuser can use their admin privileges for clandestine purposes until choosing to come forward, it stands to reason that there could be many more bad actors hidden in plain sight, wielding their editing privileges as a cloak for censorship or for commercial and political gains. Wikipedia prides itself on being the bastion of open-source information, but as this case indicates, the current vetting mechanisms for admin misconduct are insufficient. With the ascent of LLMs and generative AI, Wikipedia's human element is its unique selling point, but also its Achilles' heel. Without stringent and proactive measures to reinforce accountability and transparency, WP risks not only reputational decay but also obsolescence, as users turn to emerging technologies that offer reliable information with less human baggage. Normchou 💬 05:50, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed that this is a seriously concerning matter, that threatens to undermine confidence in the encyclopedia. Funcrunch (talk) 06:19, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
Bri, JPxG: The "Godfather" description seems to have been misquoted. Neither is the provided quote from the "case request", nor did "her request to Fermiboson that he archive the WP:AN thread he had opened" refer to that message. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 07:39, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- "The Godfather" was referred to in the "BADSITE", if it helps. Usedtobecool ☎️ 13:40, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- I picked it from Special:Diff/1183036383, I am pressed for time at the moment but I will have to review and see what I got wrong. ☆ Bri (talk) 16:12, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Changed the wording a little bit. Hopefully it wasn't a horrible faux pas, but I agree, correct attribution is important. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:45, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks! Special:Diff/1183811282 looks good to me; in the end it's RoySmith who knows what they have been referring to. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:51, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
This could certainly be the last sock from this user, and they may not have any other accounts at this point. Still, the paranoid side of me wonders. Will someone with a decade or two of experience in ban evasion give up for good, after surrendering this readily? It almost seems like a stunt. Mlkj (talk) 11:14, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Maybe he'll go for the sock-to-admin hat-trick. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:22, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
Strange enough, this is not the first time I heard about admin with sockpuppets. The Dutch Wikipedia had also a few cases. Probably the current election and control is failing. How can that be fixed? The Banner talk 11:40, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- In cases like this one, I would probably agree with what Anomie and OwenBlacker noted below (and I also liked Ganesha811's reference to xkcd:810): Any "fix" would require a fundamental reworking of how editing on Wikipedia works since anonymity is a central corner-stone and that would most likely be even worse since there a number of highly respected editors and admins that do pride their anonymity and who would probably quit if they had to out themselves in the name of preventing such socking. Regards SoWhy 19:35, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
If any saga needs an interrobang, this is it. Self-selected sleeper agent and performance art come to mind... We can't foresee any and every edge case, after all! kencf0618 (talk) 12:34, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Now this is a saga, but a better (funnier at least) saga would be a trilogy, next time ArbCom need to take some time to review every RfA candidate, but still very funny for what it's worth. This was just a what the hell moment and then when I saw Lourdes' name, a second what the hell moment. Zippybonzo | talk | contribs (he|she|they) 13:14, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
How did they get away with this for so long? [...] How did nobody notice?
Get away with what, exactly? Did they get away with becoming an admin by not doing the bad things that led to the earlier ban (or much other bad things)? Or did they get away with doing bad things before the "Godfather" thing? The first possibility I think we can't do much about without a significant risk of the cure being worse than the disease, and unfortunately that's the direction I see some pushing. The second has more promise, but doesn't necessarily result in us catching that a sock is a sock versus just a bad admin. Anomie⚔ 13:30, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- While I already have a bunch of concerns about on-wiki functionary processes, I'm including to agree — while obviously ban evasion is something we would want the community to pursue and punish, if the evader doesn't get noticed because they're acting like an exemplary editor then I'm much less concerned.
- (That nobody seems willing to do anything about attacks and harassment from an on-wiki BADSITE is something I find substantially more problematic — I think people behaving poorly on a BADSITE should be blocked from here without it being considered OUTING to raise the complaint. But that's a different conversation.) — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 15:09, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Anomie, OwenBlacker, agreed. This came up after Eostrix was blocked too. Malicious behavior is the core problem, not socking, which is just a mask. This XKCD is relevant. —Ganesha811 (talk) 18:07, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
This wasn't the news I was expecting to read today. I'm not going to lie, it's actually kind of impressive that Wifione/Lourdes was able to successfully go through RfA twice as a sockpuppet. - ZLEA T\C 14:44, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah. Must have had considerable passion for their project, so to speak. Perhaps your username in short for Zillionth Lourdes' Editor Account. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:56, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- I've revealed the meaning of my username to only a few. Perhaps one day you will be one of them. - ZLEA T\C 18:12, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'll strive to be worthy of it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:30, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- I've revealed the meaning of my username to only a few. Perhaps one day you will be one of them. - ZLEA T\C 18:12, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- I was as surprised as anyone, I thought Lourdes was a terrible admin because they rushed into things and tended to chose the "Path of the Most Drama" more often than not. That was all I expected to be addressing in the request I filed. I would suggest that it is not a worthwhile endeavor to ponder why someone like this does the things they do, and also don't be fooled by them implying they confessed out of some sort of kindness to me either, that's just as much of a lie as all the other lies they told. They did email the committee a while back to say they thought I was losing it and should be forced into some sort of counseling. That made me laugh and also almost certainly made the rest of the committee less likely to take "her" seriously. Now that we are reasonably certain of the connection between the accounts, in hindsight there are some other indicators that have come up, things that might habve tipped this situaion over a bit sooner, but per WP:BEANS I don't think it is prudent to be discussing them here. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:54, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- What goes unmentioned here is that Wifione was impersonating a moderately famous celebrity with same first name behind the scenes, going all the way back to their first edits on the Lourdes account late in 2015, including in their emails, and going as far to use a VPN to appear to be in the same country that person was living in. Back in 2021, in the aftermath of the RexxS case, they were complaining about OUTING when their supposed real identity was mentioned offwiki, and managed to then get the original edits they made pretending to be the celebrity oversighted (these edits have now been restored). Ideally, they should have been blocked under Template:Uw-ublock-wellknown after making the initial edits pretending to be the celebrity. Overall, this is undoubtedly one of the most elaborate ruses in Wikipedia history, and a clear demonstration of the fact that you never really know who's behind the mask. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:11, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- I don't understand why so many are so surprised. Today is election day in Ohio, where I will be required to present a government-issued photo ID in order to be allowed to walk into a voting booth. Yet some MAGA Republicans still cry that thousands of sock-puppets voted in the 2020 election. I expect that more "surprising" socks will be outed in the coming years. You just asked where all the administrators were – I choose to focus on the content of the encyclopedia, rather than editor behavior. There are shortages of admins in many areas; you can't help in them all so you need to prioritize. Besides, if I were more active in looking for editors who weren't who they said they were, I'd still need to assume good faith and tiptoe around the "outing" policy to avoid getting in trouble myself. Want to really surprise me, Lourdes? Show up in Toronto this week, ready to perform. – wbm1058 (talk) 11:37, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Asking Lourdes to come to Toronto and make miracles is not how it's supposed to work. :) -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 14:48, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Why did the Signpost chose to cover only the "news at eleven" story in this issue of the Arbitration Report? -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 11:44, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- The answer is obvious (though I'm not speaking for @Bri and JPxG:). It would be journalistic malpractice for The Signpost *not* to cover this story. A bent admin with special privileges has been watching over other Wikipedians (as well as their paid clients) for about a decade. As far as why other stories weren't published - we've all got time pressures - but please feel free to submit a full story, or even just a brief paragraph for inclusion for the next issue. Smallbones(smalltalk) 17:36, 7 November 2023 (UTC)