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**There's a difference between being a Disney tour guide and a television personality. Do Disney tour guides have [http://blogs.tampabay.com/media/2008/09/tammie-souza-co.html news articles] [http://blogs.tampabay.com/media/2007/12/former-local-tv.html written] [http://blogs.tampabay.com/media/2008/09/incoming-channe.html about them?] No. You're using a strawman here. --[[User:CFIF|CFIF]] [[User talk:CFIF|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/CFIF|⋐]] 05:50, 13 June 2009 (UTC) |
**There's a difference between being a Disney tour guide and a television personality. Do Disney tour guides have [http://blogs.tampabay.com/media/2008/09/tammie-souza-co.html news articles] [http://blogs.tampabay.com/media/2007/12/former-local-tv.html written] [http://blogs.tampabay.com/media/2008/09/incoming-channe.html about them?] No. You're using a strawman here. --[[User:CFIF|CFIF]] [[User talk:CFIF|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/CFIF|⋐]] 05:50, 13 June 2009 (UTC) |
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**:Sometimes. What sort of articles and how many and how in-depth would they need to be for a theme park clerk to be notable? Is this different from the standard for television personalities? Why? - [[User:A Man In Black|A Man In <font color="black">'''Bl♟ck'''</font>]] <small>([[User talk:A_Man_In_Black|conspire]] - [[Special:Contributions/A Man In Black|past ops]])</small> 05:57, 13 June 2009 (UTC) |
**:Sometimes. What sort of articles and how many and how in-depth would they need to be for a theme park clerk to be notable? Is this different from the standard for television personalities? Why? - [[User:A Man In Black|A Man In <font color="black">'''Bl♟ck'''</font>]] <small>([[User talk:A_Man_In_Black|conspire]] - [[Special:Contributions/A Man In Black|past ops]])</small> 05:57, 13 June 2009 (UTC) |
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I absolutely support any removal of a television news anchor mention from an article, much more supporting the deletions of such biography articles. I think Niteshift36 makes a good point: People who are merely doing a job, merely being seen a lot and merely being physically related to someone who is notable does not make you notable. Why whould we have articles on news anchors, or even mention them anyway? I don't understand. Such mentions are merely non-sense trivial and non-notable information any way you look at it, unless you're talking about someone like Matt Lauer, which would be a major exception to the matter, although now working for NBC News doesn't make his old job at WNBC notable by any means. I just [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=KFVS-TV&diff=prev&oldid=296091486 removed] such news anchor mentions on [[KFVS-TV]] a few hours ago. When you come to think of it, those so called "Where Are They Now" sections as refered to in this debate would violate the points being made behind the [[WP:NPOV|neutral point of view]] policy to a certain extent. —<font color="green">[[User:Mythdon|Mythdon]]</font> (<font color="teal">[[User talk:Mythdon|talk]]</font> • <font color="teal">[[Special:Contributions/Mythdon|contribs]]</font>) 05:58, 13 June 2009 (UTC) |
Revision as of 05:58, 13 June 2009
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Thanks. — Headbomb {ταλκκοντριβς – WP Physics} 09:45, 15 March, 2009 (UTC)
User:173.81.182.46 changes to DTV headings
I have reverted all of this IP's changes to the DTV headings, which removed specific information and PSIP numbers and removed referenced sections multiple times. IP has been warned, but please keep an eye on this user. Nate • (chatter) 06:42, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Dingbat2007 and his talk pages
In recent months, Dingbat2007 has been using his socks' accounts' user and talk pages to post his nonsense. Earlier this year, I've spent alot of time reverting this. Last time I did this, there were 138 socks to his name, according to Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Dingbat2007. Now, in that category, there are 105 socks. Is there anything we can do to seal these talk pages off to his socks for good? -- azumanga (talk) 02:39, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- Since they most of them are blocked, we should request indef page protection on all those talk pages. We would have to leave User talk:Dingbat2007 open for requests and what not, but if that was used like a toy like the other talk pages it could be blocked too. Just have to find an admin willing to block all those talk pages. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 02:57, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- I just reverted 7 of Dingbat talk pages. Powergate92Talk 03:59, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- I just reverted another. These need to be locked down. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 05:17, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- Since Dingbat2007 is a banned user, aren't any edits by such users suppose to be reverted immediately? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 06:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- They are, but when there are 100+ talk pages to keep an eye on, locking them down is just easier. We can always leave Dingbat2007's talk page open on his original account for requests (like he would actually be unblocked) and whatnot, but the rest should be indef protected. They aren't his toy to play with add his nonsense to when he feels like. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 06:09, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- Since Dingbat2007 is a banned user, aren't any edits by such users suppose to be reverted immediately? —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 06:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- I just reverted another. These need to be locked down. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 05:17, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- I just reverted 7 of Dingbat talk pages. Powergate92Talk 03:59, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Category structure
I've noticed that this project's guidelines for categorizing articles by geography are the same as those of the radio project. In other words, if the category "Television stations in state" exists, then don't include the article in "Television stations in country". Similarly, if the category "Television stations in city, state" exists, then don't also include the article in "Television stations in state".
I've been noticing that a lot of the market and state network navboxes are set to automatically include articles in the applicable state category, even though that may conflict with existing city categories. For example, {{Other_California_Spanish_Network_Stations}} includes articles in Category:Television stations in California. On an article such as KBEH, which is already part of Category:Television stations in Los Angeles, California, this is a problem. This is just one example, but I've been bumping into this regularly over the past couple of days.
I'm just wondering whether this has come up for discussion before, and what thoughts people might have if it hasn't? My understanding was that category inclusion via template is generally a frowned-upon practice project-wide, other than for maintenance templates, disambiguation templates, etc. Mlaffs (talk) 16:44, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
PSIP field proposal
With so many stations using PSIP to redirect to their virtual channels, I think we need to put a PSIP field in the infobox. Thoughts? Blueboy96 23:42, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- I totally agree with this; we should have it as a field between analog and digital (while retaining the analog field for LPTV's and other North American stations). Also, keep an eye out for stations using the technical quirks of LPTV to keep their signals on the air; WDJT-TV in Milwaukee is converting a sister station to carry their schedule after 6/12, and these might be announced throughout the week. Nate • (chatter) 04:34, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Personalities - Where are they now Information
The "Where Are They Now" information in the personalities section of a few stations (see WBAL-TV and WUSA (TV) has been removed (I have reverted). User:Piano non troppo and User:Vicenarian are claiming, among other things, "fancruft", "careers of station personalities after they left the station is off-topic for the station's article", "Wiki is not an opportunity for anyone associated with station to promote", etc.
I have asked both users to bring their cases to this page for consensus, as of this writting, both have not. I would like some input on whether these sections should remain in part or whole. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 06:19, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Strong Keep "Where are they Now" sections. Aside from very technical info on when the station first took the air or its FCC frequency or network affiliations, the most interesting stuff in tv-station-related-articles is who worked at the station and where are they now. A television station is more than just a building with an antennae on top; it and its on air employees are part of the community. When a station cans someone, they don't put out a press release. This is information that you can certainly get no where else. Why not keep it? Are we running out of server space?--69.251.222.75 (talk) 15:56, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- The "running out of space" argument is specious. The primary cost is not in the disk space, but in the expert editorial time reviewing material. The response to this discussion today has taken me on the order of an hour. That's the major expense. Then factor in Wikipedia's diminished reputation by allowing vandalism to persist in articles for months -- which appeared to be the case in one situation that I checked. Uncited information being added lists of TV "personalities" is not neutral, but a large, significant loss to Wikipedia. Piano non troppo (talk) 11:57, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
- Strong Keep It is completely on topic....a lot of people actually use this....see this example article: Wait, these people aren't on Milwaukee TV anymore? --CFIF ☎ ⋐ 15:19, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think it's necessary to eliminate the names of former personalities entirely; it's information on their current status that's the problem. A "Former personalities" section with a list of names is fine as long as it doesn't go into extraneous detail. Vicenarian (T · C) 15:23, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
- It's not so much the updating and the sourcing. My biggest problem here really is 2) below. "Where Are They Now?" biographical material is not on the topic of the article - the station. The topic of this information is the former employees and is material should be included in their own, separate articles, or excluded altogether if the former employee isn't notable beyond their work at the station. Vicenarian (T · C) 15:50, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Arguments for Excluding "Where Are They Now?"
Unfortunately, "it's interesting" doesn't cut it when it comes to deciding what goes in Wikipedia. The generally accepted policies and guidelines of Wikipedia must be applied. The inclusion of this material, which we're calling "Where Are They Now?" for ease of reference, on station articles does not, in my opinion, conform with the policies and guidelines as currently accepted by the community as a whole, by letter or by spirit/principle. My primary reasoning is as follows:
1) Most of the people listed on these pages are not notable in of themselves; they are only notable insomuch as they were employees of the (notable) station. Since they aren't notable on their own, biographical information about them that isn't directly related to the station fails to meet the guidelines for inclusion based on notability.
2) Because the topic of the article is the station, discussion of the current jobs of former employees is off-topic. (This is by definition - if they are former employees, that presupposes their current jobs aren't at the station.) Even if a former employee is notable per WP:BIO, the station article is not the proper place to discuss his or her current career status. Notable employees should have their own articles, and such information should be included there - properly linked so interested readers can go to those articles and find the information.
3) Much of this information is also included unsourced. "You can get it nowhere else" sounds a lot like the territory of original research. Wikipedia is not a place for information you can't get anywhere else. Everything in a Wikipedia article must be sourced and, to quote: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation." (WP:V) This is a basic, unmovable principle, ESPECIALLY true for biographical information on living people.
A procedural note: I suggest this be opened up as an RFC so as to get attention, and consensus, from the wider community.
Respectfully, Vicenarian (T · C) 19:47, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Agree - Pretty much what I would've said if I saw this first. Krocheck (talk) 21:50, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Agree, with support for each point: 1) WP:NOTINHERITED; 2) WP:Wikilinks are sufficient if they even have an article here; 3) WP:OR is a no-no. Frank | talk 00:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- Disagree, only if these are kept under the title "alumni" and is done through the use of reliable sources. Yes, many notable personalities have been famous for their beginnings at the local level. ViperSnake151 Talk 11:26, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
- See my argument 2. Notable personalities with beginnings at the local level certainly can be mentioned in a local station article, but any biographical material extraneous to their role at the station belongs in a separate biographical article, not the station article. Vicenarian (T · C)
- Pragmatically: 1) There's no logical stopping point for the information that could be added about somebody's history: any number of stations, jobs, external links. What's the limit, if the information is not related to the article topic? 2) Uncited lists are hard to check and keep up-to-date. Was somebody really at KXYZ? And KPDQ? Which first? In what capacity? Have they left? Were they fired? In many cases, incomplete information is worse than no information. Even cited lists have incorrect information. For example, I spotted this just in passing when I made my original edit: "Bill Kamal - meteorologist (1982–1993, formerly of WSVN-TV, incarcerated)", WUSA (TV). The implication is he's in jail. He isn't, he was released. (Just now, writing, it took me a few seconds to discover that Sam Donaldson's article does not say he was at WUSA. So was he or did somebody just slip this in to make WUSA look good?) Another example, and again this just took me a few seconds to find, Frank Herzog's entry in WUSA (TV) reads "sports anchor and reporter (1969–1983 and 1992–2004)". If true, that information should be in his Wiki article. Instead, it's misplaced here where it's liable to be difficult to find; 3) For editors who don't have regular experience reverting vandals, it should be emphasized that these errors and potential vandalism are very common. There were errors or issues with most of list entries I chose at random. I.e., even a superficial examination of the list uncovers serious problems. When notability is established, it's much more difficult for these errors to happen. Piano non troppo (talk) 18:09, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
- Agree, for reasons cited by Vicenarian, Frank, Krocheck. What tipped the scales for me were the pragmatic problems of: a) other editors not being able to review the accuracy of the information, and b) there being no logical limit to what could be added. In regards to review, the very first external link I checked (on Rudy Miller in article WBAL-TV) did not even mention Miller. (The site has since been changed, but the point stands.) In regards to logical limits, there was a disconcerting presumption that "personalities" are important, but for example, the station management is not. That writers, camera operators, sound technicians are not. If any people are especially important to the character of a TV station, they should be called out, with a reference, and explaining what made their contribution especially notable. One would expect to see a cross-section of a very limited few people in professions across the board. Piano non troppo (talk) 11:44, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
- Disagree --CFIF ☎ ⋐ 15:17, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
- Agree as it simply isn't the place for this information. It belongs in the articles on the people themselves. Frank has it spot on above with #s 2 and 3. (Nuggetboy) (talk) (contribs) 00:05, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- Disagree Notable station alumni are a part of a station's history and if important to the station's character, deserve to be included. There are many sections on Wikipedia where accuracy cannot be 100% verified; however that is not the issue at hand. I'd like to use an example: let's say I live in a small market, and remember an anchor by name. Maybe I am curious as to where that person's ended up. Perhaps that person has since slipped away from the spotlight, or changed their name as with Kym Kobasko, alum of WTOV-TV. Unless I know she's now "Kim Gable," a Google search wouldn't turn up results unless there's some way to connect the two-- Wikipedia. An alumni section on WTOV-TV's Wikipedia entry could serve that purpose, or step by step, I could Google WTOV, end up at Wikipedia-WTOV#alumni, locate "Kym Kobasko, n/k/a Kim Gable" and follow that to a probable article on her, her current station, or similar. If the personality in question is not notable enough to have an entry, I'd still have a way to research the information. The same goes for a "where are they now" section-- it is simply more user friendly. I am strongly against the removal of this material as it is a vital part of many research processes, should you be researching station personalities. There is an argument above that states " A "Former personalities" section with a list of names is fine as long as it doesn't go into extraneous detail." I wouldn't consider "Now at KXXX-TV" extraneous data. If you don't think a station's talent is notable enough to go into an article, consider the fact that newspaper TV and entertainment editors constantly answer viewer letters such as "Where is X? I haven't seen him or her on WXXX lately," or "Any idea where X has turned up?" (Google "rob owen vacation anchor" if you care to.) Certainly the station's viewers find it important and I think it's important that Wikipedia support a central location for this information when it is available. Most of this information can be cited with a simple reference to that personality's biography at whichever station happens to be their current home. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.3.223.164 (talk)
- Wikipedia is not a "Who's Who?" directory of all persons ever to appear on television.
If you'd like, you can create your own Wiki on former TV people. ButWikipedia has certain standards agreed to by the consensus of the community as a whole. This is not in line with those standards, IMHO. Vicenarian (T · C) 01:06, 13 June 2009 (UTC)- It is in the WP:TVS rules which were created with the Wikipedia rules in mind. You, of all people, should be showing some WP:AGF to that fact, but you seem to be dismissing that people put alot of thought into the rules of WP:TVS, took the rules of Wikipedia into affect and laid down a set of rules that have stood unchallenged for many years now. You are essentially challenging those rules and AGF itself. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 01:20, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- Please keep your comments directed at the topic at hand and not at me. Challenging content is not bad faith. Now, for one thing, we differ on the interpretation of what the guidance at WP:TVS says - I don't see anything in there about current career blurbs for former personalities. It just says "information on personalities, past and present." It's vague, and for a reason, because not every station has the same sort of information about its personalities available for inclusion. But I don't see how it could be construed to mean you must include current career information for former personalities. For another thing, the WP:TVS guide is just that - guidance. They're not rules. And even if they were asserted as rules, the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia supersede them, and I've already laid out my argument for why I believe this information is against those policies and guidelines. Vicenarian (T · C) 02:37, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- It is in the WP:TVS rules which were created with the Wikipedia rules in mind. You, of all people, should be showing some WP:AGF to that fact, but you seem to be dismissing that people put alot of thought into the rules of WP:TVS, took the rules of Wikipedia into affect and laid down a set of rules that have stood unchallenged for many years now. You are essentially challenging those rules and AGF itself. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 01:20, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- NOTE: Please see Talk:WBAL-TV#RfC: "Where Are They Now?", where I have opened a formal RfC on the inclusion of this information on that particular station page. Vicenarian (T · C) 00:38, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- Neutralhomer, it's acknowledged that you and a lot of other people have put considerable work into refining the information in WP:TVS and related articles. But because there is such a wide range of issues to struggle with, naturally some aspects are less well addressed. I just spent 20 minutes skimming last year's history of WP:TVS discussion. I found a couple articles about the notability of particular stations, and one inconclusive discussion specifically addressing the notability of anchors [1]. This present discussion about lists of employees is not a reflection on the outstanding body of other work that's been done. It seems these issues simply haven't been addressed. Regards, Piano non troppo (talk) 04:26, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think we need two discussions on the same thing. Either let this be the RfC or move the RfC to here. Two discussions on two different pages would just space out a conversation that needs a central place. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 01:17, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- The RfC is particular to that article. I've cross-linked the discussions so that those interested in both can participate in both. Vicenarian (T · C) 02:37, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Personality articles
A few anchor articles have found their way to AFD, and I'd like to bring up one of my deletion arguments there, in the hopes that someone can show me where I'm wrong.
Delete. There is a difference between artists and people who merely have a public job. There are two possible notable article subjects for an artist (or actor or writer or musician etc.): the artist's life and the artist's work. The fact that a body of work is widely distributed, published by major publishers, and so on is a good sign that there will be sufficient commentary in reliable sources to write an article. A similar principle applies to professional athletes (although I think that current inclusion standards are far too wide there for reasons of completeness) and elected officials: you can reasonably write an article about their athletic accomplishments or politics. In all of these cases, their accomplishments are noteworthy acts, events, or artefacts, not merely the products of a job done in the public eye.
Here, we don't have a performer: instead, we have a person with a public job. All of the coverage is coverage of her (large, notable) employer, not the (interchangeable) employee. "WFOO holds charity event, Heidi Jones, Foo Barson, and Tex Ample to participate" is the typical news story, both for this article in particular and this class of article in general.
In short, there's no direct coverage of this person save for direct coverage of her employer employing her services. Other articles do exist, but they are dissimilar.
Can anyone refute this and argue that, yes, anchors and meteorologists and reporters and such are notable as a class? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 04:48, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- I have to agree with AMIB (can't believe that is happening) some anchors/reporters/meteorologists are notable, but "John Q. Reporter" at KXXX-TV isn't. Where Matt Lauer has reported...that is notable. This is where the "Where Are They Now" sections fall into play. For 95% of anchors/reporters/meteorologists, that is the only place they are notable. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 04:54, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- I want to emphasize that I'm not making the argument that all reporters, etc. are non-notable, but that reporters, etc. are not automatically notable. I'm also talking a bit more about proper biographies of news personalities, although I suppose the arguments also apply to biographical elements of station articles. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 05:10, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Some are, some aren't. I think major-market anchors and reporters definitely are....when you have hundreds of thousands of people knowing of the person there's an element of notability of it. This debate has been going on for a few years now and that seems to be the general consensus. I'm all for deleting articles on small-market reporters. --CFIF ☎ ⋐ 04:59, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- But where should that information on the small-market anchors/reporters/meteorologists go? "Where Are They Now" sections? Somewhere else? - NeutralHomer • Talk • 05:05, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- Nowhere. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 05:10, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- I think AMIB is talking about separate articles, not the "WATN" sections. --CFIF ☎ ⋐ 05:06, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- I thought he was tying the two together. My goof. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 05:09, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- Why are "major-market" anchors and reporters notable? Why does working in a job that exposes you to hundreds of thousands of people make it easier to write an article, or make the concerns of biographies of living persons less pressing?
- To turn that around, how are markets of > X,000,000 people different from markets of < X,000,000 people? What's the threshold, and what's the reason for that threshold?
- The debate has been going on for a long time, but I don't think there's been a lot of reasoned discussion about it. It's mostly been gut calls, as far as I've seen. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 05:10, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- It is like the image galleries. Lots of debating from both sides, none of it goes anywhere. It begs the question...should we really bring it up, rehash the whole thing over, and come to the same "nowhere" conclusion? - NeutralHomer • Talk • 05:27, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- I look for notability beyond simply doing the job they are paid to do. Simply being exposed (known) to thousands (or millions) of people isn't really the criteria. For example, a tour guide on a ride a Disney World is seen by tens of thousands of people a year. Does that make them notable? Tens of thousands of people know that Prince Michael Jackson II is the son of Michael Jackson, but he isn't notable on his own. "coverage" like a reporter riding on a parade float or speaking at the local Kiwanis dinner are trivial. They might be local celebs, but that doesn't rise to the notability criteria. What made them different than simply doing their job? Someone like Marie Torre for example might not have been that notable, but she got national coverage due to a lawsuit brought by Judy Garland and she went to jail for refusing to name her sources. That is the sort of thing that makes someone notable. Simply showing up for work and being recognized in a local market (no matter how large) shouldn't be considered notable. Niteshift36 (talk) 05:42, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- This doesn't really clarify anything. Everyone agrees about theme park clerks and Marie Torre and that there's a line somewhere between them. Where's the line, and why is it set there? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 05:57, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- There's a difference between being a Disney tour guide and a television personality. Do Disney tour guides have news articles written about them? No. You're using a strawman here. --CFIF ☎ ⋐ 05:50, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- Sometimes. What sort of articles and how many and how in-depth would they need to be for a theme park clerk to be notable? Is this different from the standard for television personalities? Why? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 05:57, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
I absolutely support any removal of a television news anchor mention from an article, much more supporting the deletions of such biography articles. I think Niteshift36 makes a good point: People who are merely doing a job, merely being seen a lot and merely being physically related to someone who is notable does not make you notable. Why whould we have articles on news anchors, or even mention them anyway? I don't understand. Such mentions are merely non-sense trivial and non-notable information any way you look at it, unless you're talking about someone like Matt Lauer, which would be a major exception to the matter, although now working for NBC News doesn't make his old job at WNBC notable by any means. I just removed such news anchor mentions on KFVS-TV a few hours ago. When you come to think of it, those so called "Where Are They Now" sections as refered to in this debate would violate the points being made behind the neutral point of view policy to a certain extent. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 05:58, 13 June 2009 (UTC)