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Merger discussion for Disney La Chaîne
An article that is part of this wikiproject, Disney La Chaîne —has been proposed for merging with another article. If you are interested, please participate in the merger discussion. Thank you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Spshu (talk • contribs) 23:39, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Adding a "deceased" or "alive" field to Template:Infobox character
I just got through reverting 190.172.168.114 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) adding a "deceased" or "alive" field to Template:Infobox character at various The Walking Dead character articles. An example is here. I reverted the IP for the same reason that I reverted an IP with regard to List of Teen Wolf characters: We do not treat characters as though they are permanently alive or dead with a "status" field; the reason why is pretty much due to what MOS:PLOT states: By convention, these synopses should be written in the present tense, as this is the way that the story is experienced as it is read or viewed (see also WP:TENSE). At any particular point in the story there is a "past" and a "future", but whether something is "past" or "future" changes as the story progresses. It is simplest and conventional to recount the entire description as continuous "present".
This IP has found a way to get around Template:Infobox character not including such a field. So what should be done about this? Does anyone other than the IP agree with adding the field? I don't know if this field is used at any other character articles for shows or otherwise, and if the IP got the field from one of those cases, but, in my opinion, it should be removed in all cases. I'll leave a note at Template talk:Infobox character, Talk:The Walking Dead (TV series), and IP 190.172.168.114's talk page, about this matter, redirecting them to this section for discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 06:54, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
- I feel that too many fields in an infobox are a detriment overall, as they tend to lessen editors' focus on the article itself. If somthing is worth mentioning, it's worth putting in prose and citing. So I'm against the addition of such a field, or of anything of a similar ilk. GRAPPLE X 08:25, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
- Deceased/Alive is nonsense in fiction. Characters are not real persons. -- Magioladitis (talk) 11:31, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with the rationale of "We do not treat characters as though they are permanently alive or dead". --Izno (talk) 13:53, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
- Characters are alive or dead in a fictional work at defined points in the plot. Saying a character dies in episode <whatever> for a series or at some defined point in plot for a film is valid but it is nonsense in general to say a character is dead when obviously alive at some point in the work. Only exception (and this may apply for series in question here) is if concept of the work is that some characters may be a ghost, vampire, zombie throughout and that is more related to the type of character, not alive/dead status. I think the IP was trying for something like the "species" attribute for distinguishing type of character. Just wasn't doing it correctly. Geraldo Perez (talk) 14:24, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
- Disagree about adding the field. The series isn't about having a scorecard of how many days/episodes/chapters a character has survived. I've experienced similar problems with List of Divergent characters and it had even gone to the point of describing how the character was killed off in the infobox. The character infobox already has "first appearance" and "last appearance". Even then, characters can appear in later flashback episodes after they are dead. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 14:38, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
- Since we treat works of fiction (even serialized ones) as in the present, listing a character as dead or alive in an infobox is out of step with that. Details on characters in the body can discuss the episode when that character died but we have to remember with the magic of television that characters can still appear in later episodes (TWD being a prime case with flashback uses). (To extend this, coming more from the TWD video games, I find the huge tables of "alive"/"dead" for all the characters rather annoying, and in the same lines as the infobox here, absolutely unnecessary for how we treat fiction). --MASEM (t) 15:42, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
- I agree. This is a huge problem on the articles of Sons of Anarchy characters where listing "deceased" next to their names basically spoiled the whole show. EtherealGate (talk) 09:06, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
MOS:IDENTITY issues that affect TV articles
There are currently two discussions underway regarding MOS:IDENTITY at the village pump. One of these is relevant to the TV project. It addresses how to instruct editors to refer to transgender people when they are mentioned in passing in other articles. For example, if a person changes their sexuality and name, should this be reflected in an article about a TV series that ended 32 years ago? The discussion may be found here. --AussieLegend (✉) 02:23, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
Removal of episode section with only a series overview table
(moved from "Need your opinion on something..." on from my talk page to here for better forum) Geraldo Perez (talk) 13:35, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
Geraldo, can you share your opinion on this this reversion at The 100 (TV series)? The use of 'Series overview' sections with just a link the the "Episodes list" page and the 'series overview' table is extremely common at TV series articles (including, I'll note for example, at Girl Meets World), so I'm trying to determine if there's any policy basis for AlexTheWhovian's revision or not. Pinging AussieLegend on this as well, for another opinion... Thanks in advance. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:44, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- Also take a look at Talk:The Flash (2014 TV series)#Episode headline. Alex|The|Whovian 05:49, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- @AussieLegend: Am I missing something? That discussion seems to be about a section entitled 'Episodes' that simply has a {{Main}} linker to the "List of episodes" page. But that's not what we're talking about – we're talking about the far more common practice of a 'Series overview' section in which the 'series overview' table from the 'List of episodes' pages is transcluded over to the main article, as is done at say: Girl Meets World#Series overview. The situations aren't analogous, and even if they were the discussion at one series Talk page wouldn't overrule the much broader consensus use of these in a broad number of TV series articles. We need to have a broader discussion at WT:TELEVISION about this if we're suddenly going to rule this widespread practice "invalid" (and I'd oppose such a change, FTR). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 06:08, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- You pinged the wrong person. However, the discussion in question was over a user wanting a subsection titled "Episodes" (basically the same as "Series overview" here), that consisted of a link to the List of Episodes page, and a transclusion of the series overview table, exactly as per the discussion here. This was rebuked due to policy dictating that sections must contain prose, and not merely one link and one table. The content does not requires its own entire section, and can easily be added to the Premise section, given that a list of episodes (complete with plots) is merely an extension of this. "Common practice" does not overrule policy, and any instances of this should be changed on sight. Alex|The|Whovian 06:18, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- There is no "policy" that "sections must contain prose". As far as I can tell, there's not even a guideline saying that, but even if there were guidelines aren't "laws" and WikiProject consensus can certainly supersede them in some cases. However, it's been long-established practice that tables (e.g. like 'Series overview' tables) can have their own sections (the closest guideline I can find on this is Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Embedded lists). But, regardless, two editors on a single article Talk page don't get to unilaterally decide to overrule something approaching ten years of common WP:TELEVISION practice on this and declare it "consensus". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 06:25, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- Oh, and the way you've been doing it lately looks like crap (IMO) – I actually agree with the IP on this: having a link from the TOC to go directly to the Series overview table (as well as to the link of List of episodes article) is actually vastly preferable from a reader standpoint. (But Wikipedia:Readers first is the single most ignored essay on Wikipedia, which is shocking in its own right...) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 06:28, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- Tagging Bignole, who has taken on this discussion before. Alex|The|Whovian 06:34, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- There is no policy that sections have to include prose. Sections can contain just tables. Generally they shouldn't contain just links, that's what the "See also" section is for, but a section with a link and the series overview table is fine. The table doesn't really belong in the premise section because there is nothing about the premise in the table. Some premise sections contain a link to the LoE page, but that's not really correct because the LoE pages cover the plot, not the premise. It's even worse when the series has season articles, because the LoE page then contains neither plot nor premise. The series overview table should be in a separate "Episodes" section. Well, that's not really correct either. The table should be in the "Broadcast" section of an article because the series overview table is a summary of the broadcast history of a series. And, of course, when a table is not the first or only content in a section, the table should include a caption, per MOS:ACCESS/MOS:DTT, so that screen readers can navigate to the table. --AussieLegend (✉) 09:10, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- Tagging Bignole, who has taken on this discussion before. Alex|The|Whovian 06:34, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- You pinged the wrong person. However, the discussion in question was over a user wanting a subsection titled "Episodes" (basically the same as "Series overview" here), that consisted of a link to the List of Episodes page, and a transclusion of the series overview table, exactly as per the discussion here. This was rebuked due to policy dictating that sections must contain prose, and not merely one link and one table. The content does not requires its own entire section, and can easily be added to the Premise section, given that a list of episodes (complete with plots) is merely an extension of this. "Common practice" does not overrule policy, and any instances of this should be changed on sight. Alex|The|Whovian 06:18, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- @AussieLegend: Am I missing something? That discussion seems to be about a section entitled 'Episodes' that simply has a {{Main}} linker to the "List of episodes" page. But that's not what we're talking about – we're talking about the far more common practice of a 'Series overview' section in which the 'series overview' table from the 'List of episodes' pages is transcluded over to the main article, as is done at say: Girl Meets World#Series overview. The situations aren't analogous, and even if they were the discussion at one series Talk page wouldn't overrule the much broader consensus use of these in a broad number of TV series articles. We need to have a broader discussion at WT:TELEVISION about this if we're suddenly going to rule this widespread practice "invalid" (and I'd oppose such a change, FTR). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 06:08, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
The general guideline is we don't create sections that only house a link to a page (those are "See Also" sections) and we don't create multiple sections of the same topic. Not unless they are subsections of a main topic (e.g., Production --> Sub: Writing, Filming, etc.). In this case, what is being reverted is the unnecessary creation of a section that basically summarizes the episode information. You have a premise section that contains prose, and then an "overview" was created for the dates and numbers of episodes. They are both the same thing and should be housed together. It's about efficient, professional organization of articles. I get that a lot of pages do this, but they should be cleaned up to be more reflective of how to organize an article. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 12:27, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- The episodes section is an expected section for a tv series article and when a series just starts contains the episode list, without the overview table until there is more than one season. It is then WP:SPLIT out to the list of episode article, leaving summary info (the overview table meets that requirement) behind in accordance with normal split procedures. The series overview table does not belong in the premise section - it is awkward there and out of place from what is expected, it says nothing about the premise of the show. It is much better situated in the broadcast section if a decision is made to remove the episode section but why, it is fine there as it is. After years of tv series articles and some expectation of readers and editors about organization, removing the episode section goes against that expectation and in no way improves tv series articles. Geraldo Perez (talk) 13:52, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- It is indeed true that we don't create sections with just a link but that is irrelevant here because the "Episodes" section contains a transcluded table, and that constitutes content.
- "You have a premise section that contains prose, and then an "overview" was created for the dates and numbers of episodes. They are both the same thing and should be housed together." - That's not correct. The table contains no information about the premise. It's a record of the broadcast history, which is not the same thing as the premise, which is
the fundamental concept that drives the plot of a film or other story
. The series overview is more closely a summary of the broadcast history of the plot, not a record of the premise. If the table belongs anywhere, it should be in the "broadcast" section of an article. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:07, 17 October 2015 (UTC)- The premise of the show is based on a summary of the episodes that have aired (as it's typically a summary of every season). The overview table is a data summary of those seasons, thus they are connected. If you want to put the overview table in Broadcast, that's cool too. The point is really that we don't need a "Premise" section and then immediately following an "Overview" section that just contains a table of air dates. The link for the episodes page is still better suited for the Premise section than any other section. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 18:06, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- The premise is a statement of the proposition which forms the basis for the series. The series episodes are the implementation of the premise, but do not form part of the premise itself which should remain unchanging throughout the life of the series unless the series get a major rework at some point. It shouldn't take more then a sentence or two to describe the premise for any series. The episode summary is inappropriate for a section labeled "Premise". For a section labeled "Release", though, that includes all forms of how the series is distributed, DVD, streaming, broadcast, international; an episode summary may be more appropriate and point to the episode list article with a see also in the section. Still I think it unnecessary to get rid of the Episode section itself. It is part of the article from the start and as the article grows and a split is needed, that section remains and its content gets replaced by a summary and main link when that section is properly split out the episode list article. WP:SPLIT#How to properly split an article. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:50, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- The premise of the show is based on a summary of the episodes that have aired (as it's typically a summary of every season). The overview table is a data summary of those seasons, thus they are connected. If you want to put the overview table in Broadcast, that's cool too. The point is really that we don't need a "Premise" section and then immediately following an "Overview" section that just contains a table of air dates. The link for the episodes page is still better suited for the Premise section than any other section. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 18:06, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
I want to thank Geraldo Perez and AussieLegend for their comments here – what they say has been my understanding of the situation. I absolutely agree that there is no "Guideline basis" for the proposition that we need to remove the 'Series overview' or 'Episodes' sections from TV series articles. More to the point, use of these kinds of sections has been a long-standing practice at TV series articles, and the use of these sections shouldn't be "thrown away" like this before a widespread discussion (possibly even an RfC) is held to achieve consensus on the issue first. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:36, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- So the series overview table contains information on the broadcast of the various seasons, so why is this not already just put in the broadcast section? The list of episodes page can be placed in the premise section since it is an extension of the premise with the plot fully expanded. Just to pose another question (that you can ignore), but what is the purpose of the list of episode pages if the series has separate season pages? It just seems unnessary and is just a list of episode titles (that usually lacks sources for aired episodes as well).--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 20:10, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- support sections having prose. we are an encyclopedia, not random collections of factoids. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:26, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- Lots of articles have sections that are solely tables. Discographies, filmographies seldom have more than what is in the tables. The episode summary is content and not just a set of links. The episode info of a series, even the summary, is far from "random collection of factoids". Also note that most of the articles about TV series in WP:FA#Media have episode sections. Sometimes as subsections of some other section, sometime a top level section. Ya, ya WP:OTHER but still good practices exemplified and a change from that need to demonstrate some major improvement, this proposal doesn't. Geraldo Perez (talk) 21:15, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- No guideline requires that. As Geraldo Perez points out, plenty of articles have sections that are tables-only. And the way you want things done, 1) looks like crap in the TV series article pages, and 2) isn't serving our readership (WP:Readers first). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:35, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- What further understanding and information does a subsection with a link and a transcluded table give? Nothing. The link already exists in the infobox, so technically it's not needed, and if it is not appropriate to add it to the Premise section, the table can be added to the Broadcast section. Less sections, less clutter. And we're not a place to decide on something because it "looks crap" - do attempt a civil tongue. Alex|The|Whovian 21:37, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- A WP:FA#Media example of it being in the broadcast section is The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr.. Geraldo Perez (talk) 21:48, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- Putting the transcluded series overview tables and the link to the list of episodes in a section entitled 'Broadcast history' (likely in their own subsection of that) would be a perfectly acceptable way to do it as well, though I don't find it really all that functionally different than entitling the section 'Series overview', etc. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:55, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- If people want these sections gone, they're gonna need to hold an RfC at WT:TV to gain consensus for that (and I know what my vote will be...) It's that simple. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:51, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- A WP:FA#Media example of it being in the broadcast section is The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr.. Geraldo Perez (talk) 21:48, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- What further understanding and information does a subsection with a link and a transcluded table give? Nothing. The link already exists in the infobox, so technically it's not needed, and if it is not appropriate to add it to the Premise section, the table can be added to the Broadcast section. Less sections, less clutter. And we're not a place to decide on something because it "looks crap" - do attempt a civil tongue. Alex|The|Whovian 21:37, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- Geraldo, to your first point about the premise not taking more than a sentence or two, then it wouldn't need a section if that was the case. Hence why you don't see it that way. If you'd prefer, then rename "Premise" to "Plot summary", or something else. But if you contend that you only need a sentence or two (and I'm not actually disagreeing) to be a "premise" then you don't need an entire section devoted to that. Now, yes, we do have sections that are solely tables, but in the case of the series overview table it's basically a table that does nothing more than show release dates of a season (which is kind of already encompassed in the other tables on the page anyway). Thus, if you feel that it is important that it needs to be higher up (and not down in the broadcast section) then it should be placed with the "Premise", "Plot", or whatever you want to call it. It doesn't need an entire section devoted to a couple of points of data, which already exist elsewhere on the page. Also, we don't need an RfC to remove "sections", as we don't have anything at the MOS that says the sections need to exist. It's really about professional organization, and what I see more often than not is that people don't know how to properly organize pages (just like they don't know how to properly format paragraphs) and take shortcuts like just creating new sections for small information that can easily be housed elsewhere. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 21:54, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with GP that these tables don't belong in the 'Premise' or 'Plot' sections – they simply don't belong there. Again, putting them in a section called 'Broadcast history' is preferable to removing them entirely (which seems to be what some are implying we should do instead). And I disagree that they contain "little information" – I often am going to TV series articles just to find out either, 1) how many episodes aired in a particular season, or 2) how many episodes have aired in a current season (to try and figure out how many are left...). Forcing readers to go to the episode list article for such info is totally unnecessary. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:00, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- Geraldo, to your first point about the premise not taking more than a sentence or two, then it wouldn't need a section if that was the case. Hence why you don't see it that way. If you'd prefer, then rename "Premise" to "Plot summary", or something else. But if you contend that you only need a sentence or two (and I'm not actually disagreeing) to be a "premise" then you don't need an entire section devoted to that. Now, yes, we do have sections that are solely tables, but in the case of the series overview table it's basically a table that does nothing more than show release dates of a season (which is kind of already encompassed in the other tables on the page anyway). Thus, if you feel that it is important that it needs to be higher up (and not down in the broadcast section) then it should be placed with the "Premise", "Plot", or whatever you want to call it. It doesn't need an entire section devoted to a couple of points of data, which already exist elsewhere on the page. Also, we don't need an RfC to remove "sections", as we don't have anything at the MOS that says the sections need to exist. It's really about professional organization, and what I see more often than not is that people don't know how to properly organize pages (just like they don't know how to properly format paragraphs) and take shortcuts like just creating new sections for small information that can easily be housed elsewhere. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 21:54, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
If a separate episodes section is needed so badly, why not have it like Haven, Once Upon a Time and Castle? That is, where the section not only contains the link to the LoE page and the transcluded Series Overview table, but prose (as we're requesting) in the form of premiere and season renewals? Alex|The|Whovian 22:46, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- IJBall, when I say "little" I mean not a lot, not "not important". I.E. Dates and numbers. That's basically two things. You shouldn't be finding "current" season numbers, because that's not what that table is used for. If people are using it for that, then it's being used incorrectly. The problem that I see with Haven (I didn't check the others) is that they are using it like the Broadcast section and identifying when a show was renewed each season. The reality is, after that season airs, when it was renewed becomes trivial information. We've allowed a lot of articles to act as "current event" pages that include information as it comes out, yet we often times forget to remove that information later when it's no longer relevant. Knowing that random show Y was renewed in October of 2014 is not relevant 10 years later. Not unless there was something special about the event (e.g., it was two years after the previous season ended, it was likely to get cancelled but was given one more shot, etc.). BIGNOLE (Contact me) 00:22, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
- You may be right that I haven't used those tables for "current season" info (and so have maybe had to go to the episode lists articles for that info...). But I've definitely used those tables to, for example, figure out how many episodes certain series have aired in certain seasons, and I'd personally consider that relatively relevant information to display at the main series article. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:07, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
- @AlexTheWhovian: In some cases, that is how it's been done – it's just that sometimes that section has been called 'Broadcast history', sometimes it's been called 'Episodes', and sometimes it's been called 'Series overview'. It just that for a lot of (older) series either no one has added prose (or there's been no prose to add because of little in the way of overseas broadcasts?...). But the way it's done at the three articles you listed is the way this has generally been done in the past, whether with prose or without. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:02, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
- IJBall, for some reason I feel like you think I've said that the overview table needs to be removed. That was my stance originally (kinda of is in general), but I have not said that at all in this discussion. I've merely been arguing for where the location should be. Again, I'm not saying the information is important or trivial, I'm saying there isn't a lot of information in the table and doesn't really need an entire section by itself. The average reader has enough intelligence to know that basic information about the plot of a show can be found in places called "Premise", "Plot", or "Overview". Whether they are looking for a summary of the show, a link to the episodes, or a table outlining the number of episodes per season and when the season's started and ended. There's no reason all of that cannot be housed together in a neat section. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 04:14, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
- I actually haven't gotten that impression from this discussion. But on your other point, I think a number of feel like the 'series overview' table doesn't belong in the 'Plot' or 'Premise' section (I tend to agree with Geraldo Perez on this – 'Plot' is rather the story "what?", while the episodes table is more of the story "how?", and thus seem like different topics best served by different sections). It sounds like the consensus we're starting to come to is what AlexTheWhovian (and Geraldo Perez) suggested above – some kind of separate section (e.g. 'Broadcast history' or 'Series overview'), but preferentially with the section supplemented with some kind of text. It seems like that solution might satisfy nearly everyone. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:12, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
- I also suggested it.[1] A long time acgo, actually.[2] just sayin' ... --AussieLegend (✉) 08:40, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
- Broadcast sections typically already exist, except generally for domestic information (because we shouldn't just be writing prose that says "It was renewed on this date and then aired on this date". That just comes across like news reports that have remained after announced. The reason we generally include foreign ones is because they are often not reported on at all over here and it's important to note that a show has been released overseas from it's original location (whichever direction that is). The overview table could fit into a broadcast section (probably more appropriate). I just don't think it needs its own section for what amounts to dates and episode counts, which is better reflected in either broadcast, or the premise section (because you're linking to the episode list page that contains that information there as well anyway). BIGNOLE (Contact me) 13:56, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
- I also suggested it.[1] A long time acgo, actually.[2] just sayin' ... --AussieLegend (✉) 08:40, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
- I actually haven't gotten that impression from this discussion. But on your other point, I think a number of feel like the 'series overview' table doesn't belong in the 'Plot' or 'Premise' section (I tend to agree with Geraldo Perez on this – 'Plot' is rather the story "what?", while the episodes table is more of the story "how?", and thus seem like different topics best served by different sections). It sounds like the consensus we're starting to come to is what AlexTheWhovian (and Geraldo Perez) suggested above – some kind of separate section (e.g. 'Broadcast history' or 'Series overview'), but preferentially with the section supplemented with some kind of text. It seems like that solution might satisfy nearly everyone. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:12, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
- IJBall, for some reason I feel like you think I've said that the overview table needs to be removed. That was my stance originally (kinda of is in general), but I have not said that at all in this discussion. I've merely been arguing for where the location should be. Again, I'm not saying the information is important or trivial, I'm saying there isn't a lot of information in the table and doesn't really need an entire section by itself. The average reader has enough intelligence to know that basic information about the plot of a show can be found in places called "Premise", "Plot", or "Overview". Whether they are looking for a summary of the show, a link to the episodes, or a table outlining the number of episodes per season and when the season's started and ended. There's no reason all of that cannot be housed together in a neat section. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 04:14, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
So are the proponents of removing 'Episodes' sections at TV articles / adding text to them also proposing doing the same to 'series overview' and 'episodes' sections at List of episodes / season pages? Just wondering because this conversation seems pretty arbitrary/inconsistent to me (not that I'm suggesting breaking up any of these sections). What problem are we trying to solve here? -- Wikipedical (talk) 01:56, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- The series overview table in the LoE page simply summarises the broadcast history in the original country and no additional text is generally necessary. This is also true at the main series articles, where a separate "episodes" section can exist. However, there is a "Broadcast" section in most series articles that details broadcast history in other countries, so it is more appropriate that the series overview table go there, since the table summarises the original country, while the prose summarises other countries. The problem we are trying to solve is one of consistency. --AussieLegend (✉) 06:33, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
Cleared the entire GA Review backlog for Television
- Thank you all to all our editors who help to contribute to Quality improvement efforts on Wikipedia related to WP:TELEVISION.
- I've helped to clear the entire GA Review backlog for Television, which can be seen at Wikipedia:Good article nominations/Topic lists/Media and drama.
- I'd like to make a suggestion, here, which is optional, for you to please consider:
- Suggestion: This suggestion is optional only, but I ask you to please at least read over the Good Article review instructions, and consider reviewing two to three (2-3) GA candidates from good articles nominations, for each one (1) that you nominate. Again, this is optional and a suggestion only, but please do familiarize yourself at least with how to review, and then think about it.
Thank you,
— Cirt (talk) 03:23, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
Cast order
According to the MOS, "new cast members [are] added to the end of the list". But then, characters that enter a series earlier would be higher up in the character list, no matter how soon they leave the series. Thus, it is common practice to order (in particular) the recurring characters by number of episodes they appear in (to match IMDb style).
For currently airing seasons, according to the MOS, new characters start at the end of the list but then are diligently sorted up after every new episode (which is missing in the MOS), e.g., Empire (season 2), Scream Queens (2015 TV series).
At least for recurring cast, this IMDb sorting is used in a very large number of pages of past shows, too (all seasons of the following shows: American Horror Story, 24, Pretty Little Liars, Louie, The Good Wife, Community, The Vampire Diaries, Supernatural, Mad Men, Angel, Justified, Bones, Boardwalk Empire, True Blood, Alias, Damages, One Tree Hill, and there are many more).
This should probably be reflected in the MOS, too? –Dark Cocoa Frosting (talk) 12:17, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
- Firstly, the practice of "Character (X episode)" should not be used. It is not encyclopedic in main or season articles. As such, main characters are listed in billed order (which is what the production decides), with new cast members added to the end for each season. For individual season articles, the order should reflect how the main cast members are billed for that season. For recurring and guest cast members, it is best to just list them alphabetically by actor's last name. This way, there is no bias given to any particular person over the other, and removes the need for the "(X episodes)" distinction. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 00:46, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- For recurring and guest, I tend to list them in order of appearance on main and season pages, but either way, either way. It makes sense to order main cast members first in initial billing order, and then any newly added cast members to the end of the list. That way, it reflects the chronology of the main cast as best as we can.
- Besides all the other really good rationales, listing by episode number can get a little tricky sometimes, as when an actor is credited for an episode but doesn't actually appear in the episode. For example, if I recall correctly, Hal Ozsan is credited in an episode of The Blacklist that he doesn't appear in as part of his recurring role, so he's credited for five episodes but actually only appears in four. (Would one have to list him as five episodes or four?) Listing in alphabetical or order of appearance circumvents the odd moments like that. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 03:55, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you @Favre1fan93 and TenTonParasol: for the explanations. Those are good points that I can certainly agree with.
- On the other hand, the shows I gave above comprise already more than 100 articles of past and currently airing seasons (one of which is even a GA) of popular shows that use the "Character (# episodes)" format and sort the recurring cast by that number, which then probably set a, or better, lots of bad examples.
- Doing some more searches, it seems to me that a great part (maybe even the majority) of current or recent long-running shows' season articles use this sorting for recurring cast (speculatively, following IMDb style). Unfortunately, once the list is sorted by number of episodes (however that number was determined), it is not easy to restore the order of appearance. –Dark Cocoa Frosting (talk) 22:39, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- Pointing out that "Character (# episodes)" is IMDb style is exactly one reason why that format should not be used. We are not IMDb (nor is a reliable source for that matter) and I can probably guess that 95% of the users adding this formatting are IPs or unregistered users, who are copying the text from IMDb and just reformatting it for Wikipedia. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:52, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- Then it might be good to keep eyes on some seasons that have just started, such as American Horror Story: Hotel, Pretty Little Liars (season 6), Empire (season 2), Scream Queens (2015 TV series), Louie (season 5), The Good Wife (season 7), The Vampire Diaries (season 7), Supernatural (season 11), Bones (season 11), which I can guarantee to all end up IMDb-style very soon otherwise. –Dark Cocoa Frosting (talk) 18:12, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- Since it is mostly added on as the season airs, it can also lead to the constant rearrangement of characters, and in the past I've seen people add a character again because they don't see them already in the list when updating counts. And more recently for the fifth season of Once Upon a Time, some characters ended up being miscounted because they appeared briefly in one scene and didn't speak (he was a series regular to so the credits didn't help). Don't know how you guys go about adding things to the MoS for the season / main articles but it may be worth doing so for this, since it can look untidy.
- @Dark Cocoa Frosting:, when people are ordering them by episode number, are they doing so to the series regulars as well? Because if they are then that definitely should not be happening.--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 18:31, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- @Ditto51: I looked through a lot of them and the de-facto standard for current and recent season articles appears to include the (# episodes) for all characters, and then sort the lists for recurring / special guest / guest (but not main cast) by the number of episodes. Yes, this leads to continual reordering for current seasons. –Dark Cocoa Frosting (talk) 20:01, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- Then it might be good to keep eyes on some seasons that have just started, such as American Horror Story: Hotel, Pretty Little Liars (season 6), Empire (season 2), Scream Queens (2015 TV series), Louie (season 5), The Good Wife (season 7), The Vampire Diaries (season 7), Supernatural (season 11), Bones (season 11), which I can guarantee to all end up IMDb-style very soon otherwise. –Dark Cocoa Frosting (talk) 18:12, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- Pointing out that "Character (# episodes)" is IMDb style is exactly one reason why that format should not be used. We are not IMDb (nor is a reliable source for that matter) and I can probably guess that 95% of the users adding this formatting are IPs or unregistered users, who are copying the text from IMDb and just reformatting it for Wikipedia. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:52, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
Noting season and episode
I have found there is not a consistent way to notate season and episode for television series. Sometimes they are written as 1X19; 01x19; season 01, episode 19; or season 1, episode 19. Which is preferable? (I lean towards the last one. This was previously discussed at Manual of Style/Dates and numbers) LA (T) @ 21:12, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
- Where are you noting it out, and in what context? Also, are we talking about shows that don't have names for their episodes? BIGNOLE (Contact me) 21:21, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
- In most cases the actual episode number is of very little help, unless a lot of episodes from the same season are being referred to. Since I'm a big fan of MOS:NUMERAL, which says
Integers from zero to nine are spelled out in words
, and giving readers some extra help, I generally write something likeseason four episode "Murder in The Air"
. When referring to a series of episodes in a season, I use "season 4, episodes 1, 2, 4, 5, 17–23" or something like that (spelling out the numbers in such a case is messy at best). --AussieLegend (✉) 04:34, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- In most cases the actual episode number is of very little help, unless a lot of episodes from the same season are being referred to. Since I'm a big fan of MOS:NUMERAL, which says
- Bignole and AussieLegend: I am trying to wrest some sense from Oceanic Airlines and Morley Television sections and possibly other articles which lists television episodes like those two do. LA (T) @ 23:37, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- Ah. I'm not sure I would say "season, episode, episode title". I might just say, "season four's 'Episode Title'". The number becomes irrelevant when you have the title. As for writing, the seasons should always be spelled out (unless you're like The Simpsons with 25+ years. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 23:59, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- Honestly, it's not something likely to be covered at MOSTV. When it comes to just spelling out season numbers, that's already part of the WP:NUMERAL. It should always be spelled out (unless it's the article title). As for the order of saying "Season ten episode 'Title'", that's more of a professional writing standpoint and not something likely to be dictated directly by MOSTV. We don't typically cover basic writing guides at MOSTV, just layout, appropriate information, etc. What I would do is point people to WP:NUMERAL for spelling out the season numbers, and then just be clear that professionally it's better to write it as "season number's 'episode title'", or something like that. The actual episode number, if it has a title, is irrelevant at that point. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 13:07, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- It should be consistent within the article, so if it goes by season 4 for the bulk of the prose, then keep it as season 4, as if it were books and referring to volume 4 or chapter 4. So capitalizing "season" would not be needed. Sometimes I prefer the number in case I need to mention multiple seasons like "She was voiced by Katie Griffin in seasons 3-6." I don't see a reason to use SEE (e.g. episode 301) or SxEE (e.g. episode 3x01) format as typical of the TV references unless there's no other way to distinguish the episode like if it didn't have a title. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 17:36, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
- In most cases we should be using plain English, to suit the sentence and its context: In season 2, episode 13, "The BFG-9000", B.J. fends off a horde of demons; or In "The BFG-9000" (season 2, episode 13), B.J. fends off a horde of demons; or whatever (using "series" instead of "season" for British shows). Shorter forms should be reserved for infoboxes, tables, and highly compressed lists, and use abbreviations anyone can parse without being w@r3z d00dz: sea. 2, ep. 13 (British: ser. 2, ep. 13). If we wanted, sn. 2, ep. 13 (Brit.: sr. 2, ep. 13) would be slightly shorter but still parseable. We could also use s. 2, e. 13, for simplicity.
The problem with the geeky formats is they are not used consistently, on or off WP, and they are meaningless to people not already familiar with them. If for some reason we were to settle on one of them, s2e13 is much clearer than the alternatives. Also, the "x" in the examples given above is actually × and should be rendered thus, per MOS:NUM. There's no need to use a leading zero (that is mostly done with TV-pirating torrents, for alphanumeric sorting reasons, and torrent sites mostly use s02e03 format, anyway, not "02x13"). If we actually came to a consensus to use ×-format in a table, it should be "The BFG-9000" (2×13), "Return of the BFG-9000" (10×3), but the s2e13 format really is easier to understand. If for some reason we want a leading zero (I argue against it), that would only be done for the short numeric form: s02e13 or maybe 02×13, not for plain English: season 02, episode 04 or abbreviations thereof; we don't use leading zeroes for any other such constructions (e.g. dates, measurements, book volume numbers, etc.), also per MOS:NUM. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 04:46, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
From The Doctor to my son Thomas - featured article candidate
I've nominated the article about the video From The Doctor to my son Thomas for Featured Article consideration.
The article is about a message sent from actor Peter Capaldi in-character in his role as the Doctor on Doctor Who, to console an autistic young boy over grief from the death of his grandmother.
Comments would be appreciated, at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/From The Doctor to my son Thomas/archive1.
Thank you for your time,
— Cirt (talk) 01:06, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
The View (U.S. TV series)
There is some very concerning content at The View (U.S. TV series) in the "Notable episodes" section; in particular, the two subsections titled "Doctor's stethoscope controversy" and "Refusal to hire people with black names". I have not edited the article, nor do I plan to. Putting aside the misleading headings, these subsections send up all kinds of warning flags, especially with regard to violations of WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV. This show has been on the air for nearly 20 years and there have been an endless amount of controversial incidents and statements by various co-hosts, like these, that received wide media coverage for a few days, then disappeared for good.
It should be noted that the editor who added all the "black names" content first put it in Raven-Symoné, then, over the past few days, added all of it into The View via dozens of edits. So now, all of the content is in both articles.
Since these controversy incidents were just a few of literally dozens of similar random incidents over the years, I don't even know if any of the content from the two subsections should be included, let alone in such massive detail. In any case, I have no idea where to even begin with this, so I hope that some interested and experienced editors with TV show articles could review the entire "Notable episodes" section and make necessary edits to eliminate the over-the-top tabloid feel and turn it back into an encylopedia article.
Czoal (talk) 01:07, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
Proposed deletion of Dual Survival season articles
The 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 articles have been proposed for deletion. The proposed deletion notice added to the articles should explain why.
While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.
You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}}
notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.
Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}}
will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.
Blue for low ratings, red for high ratings?
Hey all, I've noticed a minor trend in some TV articles, and this seems the most appropriate place to get some consensus happening. Across numerous articles, I see the use of blue to indicate low ratings numbers, and the use of red to indicate high ratings numbers. This seems the exact opposite of what it should be (assuming it should be at all). Red connotes danger, a warning, so in TV, red seems the proper indication for "uh oh, this show's doing poorly." Any thoughts? Anyone care? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:10, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- I've seen this sort of thinking elsewhere. Blue=cold=low temperatures, red=hot=high temperatures. The same thinking uses green to denote rainfall instead of blue for water because rainfall makes everything green. --AussieLegend (✉) 18:23, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- I generally think that this sort of color coding should be avoided because 'low' and 'high' are relative terms. Low for NBC might be high for TV Land; low for Agents of SHIELD might be high for Impastor. While Hannibal might experience a precipitous ratings drop (again, I don't know if that's true, just an example), from a different standpoint, its rating may appear as high scross the board. Setting a hard and fast point for what is considered high and low impossible and seems imprudent due to the relativity of this from network to network, show to show. As for within the show, it seems a constantly shifting marker, and it seems to be not worth the effort of upkeeping what the highest and lowest numbers are. Oddly, based on a quick look, it seems to be prevalent in Asian shows? ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 18:42, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- This just seems like a highly unnecessary use of color in articles. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 06:01, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- Judging a rating to be high or low without standardized published criteria would be synthesis or original research. If the broadcast company lists such criteria up front (e.g. "All our shows must gather an average 2.0 rating or higher to be retained" or "must score over 5.0 during sweeps") as with some contracts for performance, then it could be possibly notable. Distinguishing which shows had the highest ratings for their time period or for the night might be worth a footnote. But such information can be detailed in the reception section for the article/season. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 14:28, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- This just seems like a highly unnecessary use of color in articles. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 06:01, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Correction Hey everybody--My communication was faulty: They're not using the color to indicate "hey, this is a great rating" or "hey, this is a bad rating", which would obviously be WP:OR. They're using colors to indicate the highest and lowest numbers in a range. 1, 2, 2, 3, 5, 9. Sorry! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 14:38, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- You mean like season high and season low? Okay, that could make sense but should it also be footnoted with such information so it is compliant with MOS:DTT? I think the princess one already does that. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 16:51, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- If the table is sortable, you can find out this info, and if it is notable for some reason, you can mention it in prose. I still don't see the need for this. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:24, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Deletion to Quality Award
I've created the WP:Deletion to Quality Award.
This recognizes editors who've taken a page previously considered for deletion — to Featured Article or Good Article quality.
The award is inspired by the Wikipedia:Million Award, the Wikipedia:Article Rescue Squadron, and the Wikipedia:WikiProject Quality Article Improvement.
Please see Wikipedia:Deletion to Quality Award.
Thank you,
— Cirt (talk) 00:35, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Episode count templates
Category:Episode count templates contains a number of templates that consist of "onlyinclude" tags and a raw episode count, and occasionally a date. All of these templates have been nominated for deletion. The discussions for each may be found at the following locations:
- Template:Aqua Teen Hunger Force episode count
- Template:Coronation Street episodes
- Template:Degrassi episodes
- Template:Emmerdale episodes
- Template:Family Guy episode count
- Template:Futurama episode count
- Template:South Park episode count
- Template:SpongeBob SquarePants episode count
- Template:Supernatural episode count
- Template:The Simpsons episode count
--AussieLegend (✉) 13:32, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
All of the templates in the category have now been nominated so I have completely updated the above post. Most of the discussions are on the same page. --AussieLegend (✉) 06:32, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Needs further action
All of the above discussions have now closed as delete, with the exception of the discussions for {{South Park episode count}} and {{The Simpsons episode count}}, which have closed as "No consensus". However, even these templates are no longer in use. It seems to me that we should be discouraging use of these templates, as they are unnecessary. If it is necessary to transclude episode counts there is a simpler way than creating templates specifically for the purpose. Simply wrapping the episode count in <includeonly> and </includeonly> so that you see something like "| num_episodes = <includeonly>140</includeonly>" allows the episode count to be transcluded anywhere. At the article where the count is to be transcluded, it is done the same way that we do when transcluding episode lists. Instead of adding "{{Futurama episode count}}" to an article, you add "{{:Futurama}}", which is a lot simpler. This is the process now being used at many episode lists. See, for example, this edit and this one, in which AlexTheWhovian added the feature to Scorpion and List of Scorpion episodes. This is far easier than creating {{Scorpion episode count}} and having to update it constantly, since we already update the main series articles. Opinions? --AussieLegend (✉) 09:57, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
As a note, I have started an RfC here. Your input is requested. Primefac (talk) 18:08, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- Since this discussion was started in order to gain input from TV editors per the TfD closer's instructions, the RfC should never have been opened. --AussieLegend (✉) 18:19, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- All remaining templates should be deleted, and transclusion implemented. It is much easier and simpler and removes redundancy. Update the number once on the main page infobox and the correct number appears everywhere else you need it. And this works because you shouldn't be transcluding anything else off the main page, so this won't present any issues of unwanted content moving over. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:32, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- This also goes against WP:TG guideline 1: "Templates should not normally be used to store article text, as this makes it more difficult to edit the content." - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:36, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- Since this discussion was started in order to gain input from TV editors per the TfD closer's instructions, the RfC should never have been opened. --AussieLegend (✉) 18:19, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- I suppose we should delete the templates and transclude. However, in my heart of hearts, I think we could significantly reduce the amount of numerical vandalism through the use of semi-protected templates, however this is a proposition that irritates a lot of editors who are into the whole "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit" concept. I'll avoid rambling further. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:49, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- I am not sure what the discussion is about, as the above templates are in fact already deleted (with one exception). Transclusion seems to be better, if one really really really (really) needs this information on different pages at all. What remains to be done is to document this standard solution: a good place might be the {{Infobox television}} documentation. Furthermore, if there really is a big need for those, maybe it is possible to build this feature directly into the infobox, so that the episode number is automatically put into a transclusion section? –Dark Cocoa Frosting (talk) 22:17, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
- There should be no problem enabling transclusion in the infobox. Since the vast majority of TV articles are not transcluded, this should not cause any problems. A switch can be included so that it is possible to turn transclusion off in the event that it is not needed. --AussieLegend (✉) 05:23, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- I'd support building the feature into the infobox. Though we'd really have to document this well, because based on what I've seen, I don't know how much the average user or IP user knows about transclusion and how it works. Shall we move the discussion over to the infobox talk at this point? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 06:52, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- There should be no problem enabling transclusion in the infobox. Since the vast majority of TV articles are not transcluded, this should not cause any problems. A switch can be included so that it is possible to turn transclusion off in the event that it is not needed. --AussieLegend (✉) 05:23, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- I am not sure what the discussion is about, as the above templates are in fact already deleted (with one exception). Transclusion seems to be better, if one really really really (really) needs this information on different pages at all. What remains to be done is to document this standard solution: a good place might be the {{Infobox television}} documentation. Furthermore, if there really is a big need for those, maybe it is possible to build this feature directly into the infobox, so that the episode number is automatically put into a transclusion section? –Dark Cocoa Frosting (talk) 22:17, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
Got the message on my talk page, not sure what I can contribute to the discussion. I implemented the "includeonly" tags on multiple series' pages after finding another where it had been done, and had only one user have an issue with it before I explained it and the accepted it. Also not sure how we can implement it within the infobox template... Adding the tags will affect the transclusion of the template itself. (Noted, I'm also guilty of creating {{DW episode count}}, where this transcludes to two instances on Doctor Who and one instance on List of Doctor Who serials, so it only needs updating once and not thrice.) Alex|The|Whovian 10:14, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Need help figuring out what to do with Kalyeserye articles
Hey all, Kalyeserye is a strange case. Quick background: there is a long-running show in the Philippines called Eat Bulaga!, some sort of daily daytime variety show. Within that show, is a segment called "Kalyeserye" a somewhat serialized show-within-a-show that has recurring characters, and seems to center on a love story between a "love couple" Alden and Yaya Dub. Now here's where it gets weird: It's mostly improvised, as far as I can tell although there seems to be some semblance of a story, which they do in a kind of soap opera parody style. Some of the characters seem to not actually speak, rather, they pantomime to other actors' voices and sound effects and communicate with one another over a video chat app. I really am having a hard time explaining it, because it doesn't make any frickin' sense! Here's a video (official GMA network site) to give you an idea. At 2:19, one of the Lolas (grandmothers) has a dramatic telephone call over dramatic music (perhaps speaking to the show's Mysterious Caller?). There is also interaction between some of the characters and the show hosts. Blah blah blah.
Anyhow, this weirdness apparently makes it very difficult for editors to write episode summaries, for instance this one, which introduces a lot of facts from the episode, but leaves you wondering what the hell the story is. And if we don't really understand what the story is, how does anyone write effective episode summaries? Some of the earlier ones at List of Kalyeserye episodes come close, but then some of the more recent ones really go off the rails. It seems that the tendency is to just point out things that happened, rather than to deliver a cohesive explanation of plot, if there is one. Also, the main Kalyeserye article doesn't do a fantastic job of explaining what the series is. Anyone have any thoughts about how to improve these articles? Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:21, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
Additionally, I'll mention that the show is live, so I imagine WP:V factors in here. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:37, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
A little help
- I've helped to clear the backlogs at Wikipedia:Good article nominations/Topic lists/Media and drama.
- It previously looked something like this ----> and now looks something like this.
- But there's still two (2) nominations there at Wikipedia:Good article nominations/Topic lists/Media and drama -- that I cannot review myself. :)
Any help would be appreciated. :)
Thank you,
— Cirt (talk) 17:28, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
Miniseries template TFD
Please join the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2015_October_27#US_miniseries_decade_templates.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:27, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
Interested in nominating an article for Good status?
I considered posting this message on the assessment page, but figured this talk page was on more watchlists. I have worked on Eaten Alive (TV special) some, but not enough to feel comfortable with the content. The individual who expanded the article to its current state does not seem interested in nominating it for Good status, but I think it may meet criteria. If there is a project member who enjoys promoting article to GA status, this may be an easy project to take on. Thanks for your consideration, ---Another Believer (Talk) 06:48, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
The X-Files (2016 miniseries/season 10/miniseries/other?)
It would be great to have input from this project's editors on the naming conventions for the upcoming "event series" of The X-Files, which is being called "Season 10", "revival", "reboot", "event", "miniseries".... Please chime in, thanks: Talk:The X-Files (2016 miniseries)#Season 10?. Jmj713 (talk) 16:32, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Question about TV shows and production
Should we only include TV shows that have begun production in "List of programs broadcast by X"-type articles? TV networks perpetually have thousands of shows in development, and only choose around a few to go into production. I cut a few shows from Nickelodeon's programs article since no further word about them was made since they were initially announced.
So, to re-iterate my question, should we only include shows that have begun production in these kinds of articles? ElectricBurst(Electron firings)(Zaps) 13:15, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
- I'd say wait until they've actually been broadcast, as there's no telling how late in the game a show might be cancelled and not make it to air. GRAPPLE X 13:54, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Infobox television changes
I recently modified {{Infobox television}} and {{Infobox television season}} to comply with WP:IMGSIZE, which states that image sizes should not be forced without good reason. This change should not have been noticeable, but it does make image formatting easier. In the old days it was necessary to fully format the infobox image: e.g. | image = [[File:image name.jpg|250px|caption text|alt=alt text for image]]. Implementation of Module:InfoboxImage some time ago supported the old format but added some parameters so that it was only necessary to include unformatted information:
| image = image name.jpg | image_size = 250 | image_alt = alt text for image | caption = caption text
The latest changes support both formats but now also allows for automatic image sizing based on user preferences. Most TV articles that I checked used 250px as the default image size, so this is reflected in the infobox changes meaning that, since captions are not normally necessary, only the following needs to be entered:
| image = image name.jpg | image_alt = alt text for image
In the event that a size other than 250px needs to be specified, the image_upright
parameter my be used to specify the image size:
| image = image name.jpg | image_upright = 1.22 | image_alt = alt text for image
The value required for image_upright
is easily calculated by dividing the desired image size by 220. For a 270px image, image_upright
= 270 / 220 = 1.23. A convenient table has been included in the template documentation. Please note that the previous methods of formatting are still supported. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:29, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
Ordered episodes' list
On any page of an "episodes' list", to prevent the disorder I found a system: in place of "width:%" insert this method (<'br />) on a determined space of a title or writers of that episode. Example on the animated series Be Cool, Scooby-Doo!:
- Actual: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Be_Cool,_Scooby-Doo!&oldid=690051410;
- My Version (if you click Edit): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Be_Cool,_Scooby-Doo!&oldid=689984664.
Luigi1090(talk) 11:00, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- Settings widths is actually preferable to adding line breaks (and easier to do with {{Episode table}}), especially for readers with larger screens. Alex|The|Whovian 10:08, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
- I have to praise Luigi for finally soliciting feedback from the community about this. Thank you, Luigi. If any of the regulars have some input on this, I'd like to understand what the impact of line breaks would be for data parsing. Would a machine interpret this as two titles, or one title? Obviously it would depend on the machine, I guess. I do, however, think that breaking up a title with a forced break is not the ideal way to populate tables. It also creates a problem whereby, if I wanted to edit in the area of "Where There's a Will, There's a Wraith", and I copy the title from the live page, go into edit and CTRL+F and paste the title, my browser won't find it, because it should be looking for "Where There's a Will, There's a<br />Wraith". So it's one more hoop that editors have to jump through. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:32, 11 November 2015 (UTC)