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Is there really an argument over whether this is a stub or a start class article? Time would be much more productively spent just expanding the thing to where this is moot. [[User:Jonathunder|Jonathunder]] ([[User talk:Jonathunder|talk]]) 01:03, 17 September 2013 (UTC) |
Is there really an argument over whether this is a stub or a start class article? Time would be much more productively spent just expanding the thing to where this is moot. [[User:Jonathunder|Jonathunder]] ([[User talk:Jonathunder|talk]]) 01:03, 17 September 2013 (UTC) |
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::::::As of this date 9/16/2013, I am in totum '''UNINVOLVED''' with the rating of ANY NRHP article. I will contribute pics, I will add data. '''EGGING ME ON''' are you shitting me, really? I am NOT an emotional tampon nor am I at the behest of any person here. I actually respect people here. Funny, eh? I worked my cock off for a Start article, BUT you want a Start for 3 sentences, '''GO FOR IT'''. In fact, why not make it a FA because you looked at it? HOW THE HELL was I supposed to know who to let know? You mean 3 sentences getting changed from a Start to a Stub, requires notification? Being bold, ALL BULLSHIT. I am DONE performing to every little nuance or argument or decision or St. Vitus Dance because this editors name is mentioned. I do not give a dried shit who edits, we all edit, all I want to do is learn, and contribute more and here we are, doing the shower stall shuffle. OH HELL NO.[[User:Coal town guy|Coal town guy]] ([[User talk:Coal town guy|talk]]) 01:12, 17 September 2013 (UTC) |
::::::As of this date 9/16/2013, I am in totum '''UNINVOLVED''' with the rating of ANY NRHP article. I will contribute pics, I will add data. '''EGGING ME ON''' are you shitting me, really? I am NOT an emotional tampon nor am I at the behest of any person here. I actually respect people here. Funny, eh? I worked my cock off for a Start article, BUT you want a Start for 3 sentences, '''GO FOR IT'''. In fact, why not make it a FA because you looked at it? HOW THE HELL was I supposed to know who to let know? You mean 3 sentences getting changed from a Start to a Stub, requires notification? Being bold, ALL BULLSHIT. I am DONE performing to every little nuance or argument or decision or St. Vitus Dance because this editors name is mentioned. I do not give a dried shit who edits, we all edit, all I want to do is learn, and contribute more and here we are, doing the shower stall shuffle. OH HELL NO.[[User:Coal town guy|Coal town guy]] ([[User talk:Coal town guy|talk]]) 01:12, 17 September 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::::I'm surprised this project is as active as it is given Doncram's long-term vandalism and disruption. Don't worry, I won't touch anymore involving this, you guys can solve your own damn problems. [[User:Wizardman|<span style="color:#030">'''''Wizardman'''''</span>]] 01:19, 17 September 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 01:19, 17 September 2013
National Register of Historic Places Project‑class | |||||||
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Happy Labor Day, get ready for WLM
I hope everybody has a happy Labor Day, and a nice 3 day weekend while you rest from your labors.
Wiki Love Monuments - US will start Sunday, Sept. 1, likely at 12:01 a.m. (if anybody is still awake then). I hope everybody will enjoy it, add lots of photos, and participate in the more informal WP:NRHP contest at WP:NRHP Fall 2013 Photo Contest
I still haven't heard anything about how WLM - US will change our tables for uploading (if there will be any change). There is a second upload method via state-wide maps (see http://wikilovesmonuments.us/upload/ ). Send any questions about this to User:Mono.
Smallbones(smalltalk) 21:43, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
- The text upload link is now in the tables. Looks ok to me. Smallbones(smalltalk) 19:46, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
- About 600 photos uploaded the first day. About 40 left for placement at Wikipedia:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places/Unused images. Any help appreciated. Smallbones(smalltalk) 11:46, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
- I've moved an image or two to some articles and lists. Also for the past day or so I've been narrowing down new images in the generic commons category "National Register of Historic Places," although I've had this feeling I might be the only person doing it. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 16:07, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
- UPDATE: I think all the images there are used now. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 00:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
- But more are put onto the list almost everyday by the ErfgoedBot. See Commons:Commons:Monuments database/Statistics for some of the other things it does. It also seems to categorize pix into county categories, and if there are multiple photos for a particular site, into that site's own category. I have no idea how it does this, but clearly fine categorization, such as DanTD is doing is needed. The data at Wikipedia:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places/Unused images are updated *almost* everyday - I think last year it missed about 3 days, and then 5 days at the start of October when it was busy with other things. Smallbones(smalltalk) 16:15, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
- The categorization is explained at this page. It runs at least once a day. The page also describes how you can help improve categorization. Multichill (talk) 16:51, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
- I created Commons categories for nominated and reviewed images. Royalbroil 00:43, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
- It's best to let User:Mono and the other organizers decide how to do this (but leave the categories as they are for now). It's a pretty complex task reviewing 20,000-30,000 pix.so it as to be organized well, and I know they are considering a special jury tool among other things. Smallbones(smalltalk) 01:31, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
- I created Commons categories for nominated and reviewed images. Royalbroil 00:43, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
- The categorization is explained at this page. It runs at least once a day. The page also describes how you can help improve categorization. Multichill (talk) 16:51, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
- But more are put onto the list almost everyday by the ErfgoedBot. See Commons:Commons:Monuments database/Statistics for some of the other things it does. It also seems to categorize pix into county categories, and if there are multiple photos for a particular site, into that site's own category. I have no idea how it does this, but clearly fine categorization, such as DanTD is doing is needed. The data at Wikipedia:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places/Unused images are updated *almost* everyday - I think last year it missed about 3 days, and then 5 days at the start of October when it was busy with other things. Smallbones(smalltalk) 16:15, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
- UPDATE: I think all the images there are used now. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 00:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
WLM and coordinates
I've just done some work on a file at Commons that appears to be from WLM-2012. The file includes coordinates, and these do not match the actual location of the building. However, they do match the NRHP coords. Since they were apparently added when the file was created, I assume that this was part of the automatic processing done by WLM.
This strikes me as a bad thing. We've generally found that NRHP coords are not accurate. For example, I've recently uploaded photos for 14 sites in Santa Cruz County, Arizona, and for every one of the sites the coords were off by quite a bit-- at best, on the wrong side of the street; at worst, up to a block away from the actual site.
Could I suggest, if it's not too late, that NRIS coordinates not be automatically added to WLM-2013 photos? If this isn't the right venue to post this suggestion, could it be passed along to the people in charge? Thanks. Ammodramus (talk) 14:29, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
- I think the WLM coordinates are drawn from the NRHP county list-article tables, which for older entries had coordinates from NRIS originally. But many of those entries have had their coordinates corrected/refined. And newer entries have coordinates figured out from street addresses or other clues and added by SanFranman59 and other list-table updaters. It's not like WLM is going back to NRIS coords ignoring corrections/refinements.
- You just made corrections to coords in Santa Cruz County NRHP list-article, which is great, and is what often goes on. I guess you have to manually correct the coordinates in the commons photos. But now, if you added another photo using the WLM upload, wouldn't the best/current coords be attached? That seems as it should be, to me. Although maybe the photo uploader should be asked if they want to refine the suggested coordinates. What if the photo comes with GPS coordinates included, from the camera? I wonder if the WLM upload process is smart enough to take those, instead. --doncram 17:02, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry, but this reads like "We'll introduce some data that we know very well will be erroneous, and let other editors find it and correct it later." Photographs without coordinates are still useful; why not leave the coords off rather than profligately reproducing errors?
- Another problem is that this apparently uses the "location" template, which translates to "Camera location". This is not necessarily the same thing as "object location", which is used to give the coords of the object photographed. For example, Old Baldy (Lynch, Nebraska) is a large topographic feature on private land; I shot it from a public road over half a mile away.
- Yet another source of error: HDs and other sites with large footprints. If I photograph a house at the northeast corner of a mile-square HD, and the set of coordinates in the list article for the HD as a whole gives a location at the southwest corner, then the data attached to the photograph are going to be off by a mile or more.
- I'd favor using GPS coordinates from cameras that have them, or letting the photographer manually enter camera- or object location. Otherwise, I'd say: don't add coordinates at all, unless they've been checked by humans. Ammodramus (talk) 20:18, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
- You make good points. This is about Wikimedia Commons files, not specifically about anything in Wikipedia, so maybe it is a commons issue. I personally don't edit much at Commons, and don't believe this issue is directly important for wikipedia exactly, because any incorrect coordinates are not added from Commons to wikipedia. I agree it is of some concern, however, to try to get the commons pics identified correctly, over there. Not sure if it is better to have no coordinates added or to have the Wikipedia NRHP list-table coordinates added, however. The wikipedia list-table coordinates have been posted for years now, in most cases, and have largely been checked by humans. Any really big discrepancies have been noticed and fixed. Many small refinements have been made. And in many cases where the geo-coordinates system has changed by only a small distance, maybe close is better than no location at all. So I think it is a matter of judgment, it is subjective, whether the WLM process should take and use these coordinates that we provide, to add to photos in commons. Perhaps a solution could be a change that still gives coordinates to the photos in commons, but also gives a note as to where the coordinates come from?
- Unfortunately the problem is partly/largely of our doing, as we have ourselves not tracked the accuracy of coordinates and we have not even developed any way to note the sources of coordinates. This is unlike other corrections that we track in wp:NRIS info issues. Even to call the original list-table coordinates as being "NRIS" is maybe incorrect, or fails to note that the National Register has made available better coordinates. Specifically the National Register has provided different databases of coordinates which can be merged with other NRIS data, including improved coordinates databases that I believe have not ever been incorporated into the popular NRHP infobox generator. We still often put in less-good coordinates into articles when better coordinates have been made available. So, by the way, i have pretty much changed to using the NRHP list-table coordinates, if those differ, because indeed the list-table coordinates have often been improved. I don't think there's any easy fix here, and it's not clear to me that the WLM system should be changed, though I can see why you disagree. --doncram 01:43, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
Keeping track of used and moved images
I just added a picture to Peekskill, New York, and another to North Carolina, and earlier today I added some to Virginia, and Sea Cliff, New York. Sometimes I wish there was a bot to keep track of the progress of our uploads of these pictures, because I just found Smallbones adding a huge chunk of them manually to the progress page. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 16:19, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
Finding missing entries
National Register of Historic Places listings in Franklin County, Kentucky had a single line with no upload link, and viewing the source showed me that there was a single line with the old hardcoded table; I've since fixed it. Is there any way (other than manually viewing everything) to check for pages that still have the hardcoded table? My first thought is a bot that would check as follows:
- Page name begins with "National Register of Historic Places listings in"
- Finds the |pos= number for the last (i.e. farthest down in each section) transclusion of {{NRHP row}}
- Counts how many transclusions of {{NRHP row}} there are in each section
- Logs the page whenever the number of transclusions in a section is not equal to the number of {{NRHP row}}
- Logs the page whenever the code {{NRHP color}}, {{HD color}}, etc. appears in a section below the last transclusion of {{NRHP row}}
Without the last item, we'd miss any lists in which there's an old-style table entry below the last of the NRHP rows. Nyttend (talk) 21:09, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
- It's kind of parallel to this, but articles like List of bridges on the National Register of Historic Places in Michigan use a hardcoded table; is this something that we would want to convert to the templates? Chris857 (talk) 23:42, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think that's as necessary. A big reason for having the comprehensive lists (e.g. lists by county) on tables is to simplify things for Wiki Loves Monuments and other automation-related issues, since it's important for them to be mineable for mass data and potentially capable of Semantic Web markup. With topical lists, such as the Michigan bridges or List of archaeological sites on the National Register of Historic Places in Indiana, it's less important because they're not our primary lists. Hardcoded tables permit more flexibility, and that's quite important for topical lists: they often need to include things that aren't in {{NRHP row}} or {{NRHP header}} (for example, the "Type" column for the Michigan bridges), while the Indiana archaeological sites are an example of a list that doesn't include the listing date column. Nyttend (talk) 01:48, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
Dentils, and all things buildings
Hey folks, an honest question. It JUST SO HAPPENS, that I have taken extensive pics of a few of the NRHP buildings in West Virginia. In your opinions, would it be helpful, IF, I were to include pic examples of the architecture features mentioned. Example, dentils, of brick cornices etc etc? IF thats cool, HOW would you all integrate these pics in an article, a gallery???Coal town guy (talk) 13:49, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
- You could start your project by looking at Commons:Category:Architectural elements and (1) seeing what's already there to illustrate these elements and (2) uploading your images there. The small dentils category is mostly U.S. examples, but for the larger categories, I don't see a lot of subcategories for the U.S. (e.g., there's no Commons:Category:Oriel windows in the United States), so it might be worthwhile to create some new subcategories. --Orlady (talk) 14:26, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
- CTG brings up some interesting issues. I think the best way to illustrate an article is first to write a good article, hopefully with text related to the pix. (Easily said, not easily done). Some folks link to an article we have (somewhere) on architectural terms, but I've always found that a bit clumsy. You have to be careful with using technical architectural terms; most of our readers probably don't know the difference between dentils and defenestration (or fenestration, for that matter), so explanations should be written in everyday terms.
- The info box can cause problems, but photos can be put on the left-hand side, probably smaller than you would on the RHS. Galleries *may* be used, but some editors absolutely hate them, and often misquote the guideline to just defenestrate them. I see two major problems with galleries. First, they are often just grab-bags of unrelated or repeated pix. Second, in the small format of most galleries, the pix often seem very dark or difficult to see well. There is a new format for galleries, just introduced last week, that I've played around with, that might help the second problem (or emphasize other problems). Examples will follow, but be careful with these as well. 1st, some people just hate galleries, period. 2nd, new formats are not readily adopted on WP. Smallbones(smalltalk) 14:49, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
- I was thinking left side pics, here are the dentils of location x, here is a brick cornice of location xCoal town guy (talk) 14:56, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
- I think the kind of arrangement you are describing would be best implemented with a table format, using larger images than are in the NRHP tables. A table format allows text to be aligned with images. I tried something like that to organize List of Tennessee state symbols, but that is not a good example for format (for one thing, it doesn't use the wikitable format). Look at The World's 25 Most Endangered Primates, List of reptiles of Michigan, and List of people on United States banknotes for some good examples of tables with large illustrative images. --Orlady (talk) 15:37, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
- The bank note list is a great FL....and , a good example, that would be a great thing for a historic district, IMO.Coal town guy (talk) 15:51, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
- I think the kind of arrangement you are describing would be best implemented with a table format, using larger images than are in the NRHP tables. A table format allows text to be aligned with images. I tried something like that to organize List of Tennessee state symbols, but that is not a good example for format (for one thing, it doesn't use the wikitable format). Look at The World's 25 Most Endangered Primates, List of reptiles of Michigan, and List of people on United States banknotes for some good examples of tables with large illustrative images. --Orlady (talk) 15:37, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
- I was thinking left side pics, here are the dentils of location x, here is a brick cornice of location xCoal town guy (talk) 14:56, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
- The info box can cause problems, but photos can be put on the left-hand side, probably smaller than you would on the RHS. Galleries *may* be used, but some editors absolutely hate them, and often misquote the guideline to just defenestrate them. I see two major problems with galleries. First, they are often just grab-bags of unrelated or repeated pix. Second, in the small format of most galleries, the pix often seem very dark or difficult to see well. There is a new format for galleries, just introduced last week, that I've played around with, that might help the second problem (or emphasize other problems). Examples will follow, but be careful with these as well. 1st, some people just hate galleries, period. 2nd, new formats are not readily adopted on WP. Smallbones(smalltalk) 14:49, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
New gallery format examples
- Using <gallery mode=packed-hover> </gallery>
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New Bedford Historic District, a U.S. National Historic Landmark District.
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The Wyck House (started 1690) is a National Historic Landmark (NHL) and is also part of the Colonial Germantown Historic District listed on the NHL
- Using "mode=packed" without the "hover"
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New Bedford Historic District, a U.S. National Historic Landmark District.
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The Wyck House (started 1690) is a National Historic Landmark (NHL) and is also part of the Colonial Germantown Historic District listed on the NHL
Smallbones(smalltalk) 15:02, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
- There's an example of how this works with an infobox on the right at Henry Albertson Subdivision Historic District. Feedback welcomed. Smallbones(smalltalk) 01:24, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
- THAT is a cool format, and one I will use.Coal town guy (talk) 12:24, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
- There's an example of how this works with an infobox on the right at Henry Albertson Subdivision Historic District. Feedback welcomed. Smallbones(smalltalk) 01:24, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
- Most excellent examples, Over the last few years, I have managed to get some close up pics of the "features" of some of the buildings and Historic Districts in WV. Many of them, are Alex Mahood buildings, and to be totally honest, it would IMO, be of great value to have examples of the specific features mentioned for that particular structure. Odds are, out there, some place is a person, who will see the pics, or a normal user, or building geek will doubtless have info on these features as opposed to the architectural items which, sorry to say, will not be known by most of the general public, UNLESS someone wants to tell me that everyone knows about neo classical revival etc etc etcCoal town guy (talk) 15:35, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
- If there's any reasonable chance that an article on the relevant listings can use such images, please upload them. (I recently uploaded a raft of pictures of Naumkeag, where the extant pictures did not do enough justice to its gardens and architecture. These will help make the article about it much better eventually, even if not all of them are used right now.) The point Orlady makes about architectural detail categories also applies to articles: if the article on, say, oriel windows were short of US examples (or specific regional variations), then such images also have use there. Magic♪piano 16:27, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Reality check...
was rated a start can anyone tell me why? OR Am I missing somethingCoal town guy (talk) 16:29, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
- My only immediate thought is that AFC guys see so much junk that a stub that isn't fundamentally horrible (non-notable, copyvio, not even wrong) that something well-formatted like this looks like a start. But anyway, given that the nomination form is online, the article can easily be far more extensive, and it is a definite stub. Chris857 (talk) 16:43, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
- My goodness, this is not a good thing. I guess a pic, and another source pushes it to above FA, written by the hand of Jaweh, forever now called the HAND OF GOD classCoal town guy (talk) 17:02, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
The game is on
an oldy but a goody. The weditor, basically has provided an extra link, the "extra link" is a sumary of the NRHP nom form, on the NRHP site, and explicitly states, its a summary of the nom form and provides the link for the full nom form. Ergo, its a start class......no. Is this a gaming technique that a bot can find??Coal town guy (talk) 17:53, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
- The revised article is no longer based solely on the output of the NRIS database, so it no longer exhibits the problems we've identified with NRIS-only articles. Also, due to the efforts of User:Teemu08, there's enough content now for start class. --Orlady (talk) 18:03, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
- I want to make 100% certain I get this correct, and to be clear. If a NRHP page exists out there has a link to a NRHP summary page. And that summary page, states, explicity, its a summary of the nom form, and there is a link to the nom form, on that same page, I have 2 questions, 1)Is that technically a different ref? AND 2)Depending of course on the answer to question 1, we can then call that a start? Again, the only data is, nom form, and summary of nom form, on the NRHP site.....I will follow and respect any decision madeCoal town guy (talk) 18:07, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
- Let's back up a few steps. Our concern about stubs with a single source has been focused on stubs that are sourced only to the NRIS database output. The database does not contain the nom forms. It's a computer database that contains a very basic set of facts about each property. NRIS output and nom forms are very different. An article sourced only to the nom form isn't ideal, but a nom form is a decent source. --Orlady (talk) 18:28, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
- Understood, appreciate the clarity.Coal town guy (talk) 18:45, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
- Let's back up a few steps. Our concern about stubs with a single source has been focused on stubs that are sourced only to the NRIS database output. The database does not contain the nom forms. It's a computer database that contains a very basic set of facts about each property. NRIS output and nom forms are very different. An article sourced only to the nom form isn't ideal, but a nom form is a decent source. --Orlady (talk) 18:28, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
- I want to make 100% certain I get this correct, and to be clear. If a NRHP page exists out there has a link to a NRHP summary page. And that summary page, states, explicity, its a summary of the nom form, and there is a link to the nom form, on that same page, I have 2 questions, 1)Is that technically a different ref? AND 2)Depending of course on the answer to question 1, we can then call that a start? Again, the only data is, nom form, and summary of nom form, on the NRHP site.....I will follow and respect any decision madeCoal town guy (talk) 18:07, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Ocqueoc Falls Highway-Ocqueoc River Bridge
The unused images page finally updated, and one image struck my eye. File:Ocqueoc River Bridge.jpg purports to be the Ocqueoc Falls Highway-Ocqueoc River Bridge refnum#99001536. However, It looks quite different than this image from MDOT. Anyone know anything about this, or how to resolve it? Chris857 (talk) 18:32, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
- Based on Google Street View, the MDOT bridge (45.395421,-84.057795) seems to be the correct bridge, as it is on Ocqueoc Falls Highway. The photographed bridge (45.389078,-84.059189) appears to be the one where the GPS coordinates point on the NRHP page, but the coords may not be accurate. Since the photographed bridge is not on Ocqueoc Falls Highway, I would say that it is not the correct bridge. Teemu08 (talk) 18:40, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Images uploaded at Commons
This message is being posted on talk pages for both WP NRHP and WP United States
I just relabeled images at Commons, because they were labeled to identify with an NRHP historic district, and the images had nothing to do with the NRHP. I have addressed the issue on the editor's Wikipedia page, as this seems to be their ongoing method on Commons. It occurs to me that this might be more wide-spread than one or two editors. "Historic district" doesn't mean anything to someone who isn't familiar with NRHP. And I have previously noticed other uploaders at Commons who don't always tie the image into anything identifiable. For instance, "Casas en San Antonio Texas. Is that a private residence and/or something historic? Do we have policies about posting images of a private residence without the owner's permission? Chances are, the photographer doesn't know. You can correct each one yourself at Commons, or post a message there, but there's no way to educate anyone who uploads. Wiki Loves Monuments seems to set enthusiastic photographers out to capture images, but there is no WLM University to tell them how to know what they're looking at. It bears mentioning because placing the right image with the article is of some importance. — Maile (talk) 15:54, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
- It was a long time before I understood about historic districts and the concept of a contributing property. My early photos reflect my ignorance. It would be nice to have some way to educate the less-experienced. Also, we don't have policies about posting images of (the outside of) a private residence without the owner's permission, nor should we. Whatever is in public view is, by definition, public rather than private. Ntsimp (talk) 16:05, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
- I assume what you're referring to regarding yourself is not the Sisterdale images. Because I sure wasn't knowingly referring to your work.. After I posted this, it made me wonder if there are any local privacy laws that cover things like that. We'd pretty much have to know what exists on the municipal level for such policies. I seem to remember something about people getting upset about the privacy invasion by Google maps and notice how the satellite images have eliminated views of private homes - you just see a dirt lot where there is actually a private residence. — Maile (talk) 16:24, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
- No, I didn't take those pictures. It was just a general statement, agreeing that the uninitiated don't know what to take pictures of. And I don't know what you're talking about with the Google Maps thing. I've seen thousands of houses everywhere on it. Ntsimp (talk) 10:39, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
- Regarding Maile's question about photos of private residences taken from public property, I don't believe that there are any serious legal restrictions on that, so long as the photographer remains on public property. What restrictions there are apply to photos of the residents under circumstances in which they have a "reasonable expectation of privacy": for instance, I can't use a telephoto to shoot an occupant through a small gap in the bathroom-window curtains. However, an occupant sitting on the front porch and plainly visible from the street is fair game. This seems to be borne out by Commons:Photographs of identifiable people. Given that a photo of a residence is less privacy-violating than a photo of the resident, I don't believe that there'd be any legal problem with such shots.
- No, I didn't take those pictures. It was just a general statement, agreeing that the uninitiated don't know what to take pictures of. And I don't know what you're talking about with the Google Maps thing. I've seen thousands of houses everywhere on it. Ntsimp (talk) 10:39, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
- I assume what you're referring to regarding yourself is not the Sisterdale images. Because I sure wasn't knowingly referring to your work.. After I posted this, it made me wonder if there are any local privacy laws that cover things like that. We'd pretty much have to know what exists on the municipal level for such policies. I seem to remember something about people getting upset about the privacy invasion by Google maps and notice how the satellite images have eliminated views of private homes - you just see a dirt lot where there is actually a private residence. — Maile (talk) 16:24, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
- Not sure about the business with Google satellite photos, but could it be that Google eliminated photos that violated the reasonable expectation of privacy? For example, someone sunbathing in a back yard surrounded by a high wall would presumably have a r.e.p., which might be violated by an aerial photo. Ammodramus (talk) 12:59, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
- I just don't understand what's the issue here. The Sisterdale pix *are* part of a NRHP historic district. The Casas pic never had anything to do with an HD (no category, no claim, no nothing). There is freedom of panorama in the US for buildings, and I think most people understand privacy issues pretty well, and in fact are pretty conservative about them. (Americans tend to respect private property) Perhaps we could define the use of "historic district" a bit better, but as used on Wikipedia, it includes not just NRHP HDs, but also state and local HDs. In Google satellite I can barely identify my car in front of my house (mostly by size and color), so I don't think sunbathers are much of a problem (unless, perhaps, they are really big sunbathers!). Google Street View does have a program whereby images can be removed in special circumstances, e.g. a gentleman coming out of a "gentleman's club". I think we have OTRS for that, but can't remember any problem being reported. Smallbones(smalltalk) 15:01, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
- Several comments:
- I've given notice to editor User:Renelibrary about this discussion, which Maile neglected to provide.
- I agree with Smallbones that there seems to be no issue here about privacy of photos. In the U.S., there is "freedom of panorama" that allows anyone to take and publish photos depicting private buildings from public places. When I have myself been taking pics in a historic district, and anyone objected, I would stop taking pics and not use the ones I had taken, just because I don't want to torture/hurt someone who feels damaged somehow by the photography. However legally I could use them. And in a rare case or two that I recall, we have removed photos from Wikipedia/commons where someone took issue. No one, or few, among us actively want to hurt people, so this is not a big problem.
- I just started Sisterdale Valley District as a section within Sisterdale, Texas, to provide a focal point to collect what is known/knowable about the historic district (HD). There's very little clear info about the historic district online. It is my guess/judgment that all of the photos taken are in fact of contributing buildings or structures among the 21 within the 2,893-acre (1,171 ha) historic district.
- A tiny possible quibble is that a Commons category for the Sisterdale Valley District was not set up. It would usually be best to set up a HD-specific category, when one takes muliple pics in a HD. However, given the lack of clear info online about the boundaries of the HD, it was probably best to identify the pics with Category:Sisterdale, Texas, surely accurate, which is what Renelibrary did, and not guess/interpret that an HD-specific category applies.
- This just is another example suggesting that we should go ahead and create articles (and corresponding Commons categories) for every HD out there. We are about halfway there, in terms of starting articles, about all NRHP places. For reasons of collecting and filing and informing photos, perhaps creation of historic district articles should be prioritized.
- --doncram 21:55, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
- Let's all just take a deep breath here. Ahhhhh. Isn't that relaxing? First of all, my question above, whether I was clear or not, was more general than taking a whack at one particular contributor at Commons. That's why I didn't mention the contributor by name, and why I didn't think it was necessary to post a notice on their page about this thread. I had already left a message on that user's talk page about these images, and nothing more needed to be done. And said so right at the beginning of this thread. That took care of it with the editor, as far as I'm concerned. It was not necessary to grind that editor's nose in it. Let us not leave the impression that I came over here to covertly tattle on an editor without saying anything to them. A little misleading that is. That contributor was not meant to be the topic here, nor was any editor in particular. It was only because I'd recently relabeled those images that I linked the images as an example. I didn't "neglect" to "provide" the notice to that editor. That editor wasn't being discussed here at the time. I did not - repeat, did NOT - link the editor's page, because I didn't want them hassled about this. I didn't think it was necessary to involve that editor, since it was only the images that were being used as an example. More deep breathing and relaxing, please. Ahhhhhh.
- (1) I was making a general comment that people who take the photographs don't always know it's more helpful to specifically label what they have taken a picture of. But they don't all know to do that.
- (2) The Sisterdale photos are now identifiable by each one, because I went in and specifically labeled them as to what they were. It isn't because I'm terminally stupid and can't read the labels on photos. So, take a deep breath there, please. I'm the one who made it possible for anyone to now know what those photos are. If you've done something with those photos, then good for you. But this is not a major deal. Or it wasn't meant to be.
- (3) The editor who took the photos did NOT set up the category in Commons. I did. The photographer didn't have any category at all for these photos.
- (4) Yes, SOME of those Sisterdale images are useful for the NRHP, but only because I identified what they are. The image of the fairly new Sisterdale Fire Dept building may or may not be actually sitting in the HD, but we don't know without coords on all of it. The road sign advertising for the local grocery store had also been labeled as part of the HD, but I don't think I saw "road sign advertising" in the NRHP listing. But I'm sure someone here will jump at the chance to correct me.
- (5) Orlady, you have refreshed my memory about Google. Sort of, anyway. It was Street View that was the issue, but I couldn't remember what. And it isn't all that important, anyway. In the long run, maybe none of this is as important as this thread has it. You know how sometimes you're sorry you got into a discussion, or even logged in for the day?
- (6) Smallbones, the Casas image was only an example of something being vaguely labeled so it can't be used for much of anything. It wasn't specific to HD or NRHP. Just an example. Commons is full of such examples that will probably never be used, because they aren't labeled well. And I guess I find that sad, since there are some really excellent images on Commons that can never be tied to anything..— Maile (talk) 01:50, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- Let's all just take a deep breath here. Ahhhhh. Isn't that relaxing? First of all, my question above, whether I was clear or not, was more general than taking a whack at one particular contributor at Commons. That's why I didn't mention the contributor by name, and why I didn't think it was necessary to post a notice on their page about this thread. I had already left a message on that user's talk page about these images, and nothing more needed to be done. And said so right at the beginning of this thread. That took care of it with the editor, as far as I'm concerned. It was not necessary to grind that editor's nose in it. Let us not leave the impression that I came over here to covertly tattle on an editor without saying anything to them. A little misleading that is. That contributor was not meant to be the topic here, nor was any editor in particular. It was only because I'd recently relabeled those images that I linked the images as an example. I didn't "neglect" to "provide" the notice to that editor. That editor wasn't being discussed here at the time. I did not - repeat, did NOT - link the editor's page, because I didn't want them hassled about this. I didn't think it was necessary to involve that editor, since it was only the images that were being used as an example. More deep breathing and relaxing, please. Ahhhhhh.
- I'm sorry, Maile, if I misinterpreted what you intended to discuss. And I did not understand that it was you that added the "Sisterdale, Texas" Commons category to those photos, while the original editor only added "Historic Districts in Texas" (e.g. per history of the fire station one ). But, it is confusing to me that you point to an example, the Sisterdale pics, which itself has a confusing origin and current status. The pics were uploaded in December 2012 and 5 were immediately, properly used by the uploader in the Sisterdale, Texas article. "Sisterdale" was used in the titles of the photos, so while a "Sisterdale, Texas" category was not created and added, the photos were identified helpfully. And there is no WLM uploading in this example. If the photos were known by the uploader to be of the NRHP HD, and were uploaded during WLM using the upload link in the NRHP list-article, then there would have been a proper category automatically added to the photos ("National Register of Historic Places in Kendall County, Texas").
- About the current status of the Sisterdale pics, the non-historic-looking fire station and the sign photos are currently still categorized within a "Historic districts in Texas" category, because they are in the Sisterdale category, and that is within the Historic districts one. This is after the categories have been "fixed", but to me sort of seems wrong. If you know they're in a historic district, they should be put into a specific historic district category ("Sisterdale Valley District") separate from the Sisterdale, Texas one. Again clear info about the HD is not readily available, because the full NRHP nomination doc is not available online yet)...but creating the HD article (or in this case an article section) is a start. So currently I think it would be best to leave them in the Sisterdale, Texas category, but remove the "Historic districts in Texas" category. --doncram 13:56, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- My 2¥ (it's virtually identical to 2¢ :-D — (1) There's no legal or WP-policy stance against general pictures taken from the street, although of course Ammodramus' telephoto lens is a good counterexample. See here and here for a couple of relevant discussions of the subject. (2) When I take pictures of buildings in an HD, I'll do what I think Doncram is suggesting: put only the contributing properties in the district category, and put the non-CPs in a broader category for the community. For example, File:Central Wesleyan Church in Bloomington.jpg is the one non-contributing property in the Steele Dunning Historic District, so the image isn't part of Commons:Category:Steele Dunning Historic District. It would be in Commons:Category:Bloomington, Indiana, except there are way way way too many Bloomington images for a single category, so it's one of 78 images in Commons:Category:Fourth Street (Bloomington, Indiana) and one of 22 in Commons:Category:Stone churches in Bloomington, Indiana. Nyttend (talk) 02:34, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- About the current status of the Sisterdale pics, the non-historic-looking fire station and the sign photos are currently still categorized within a "Historic districts in Texas" category, because they are in the Sisterdale category, and that is within the Historic districts one. This is after the categories have been "fixed", but to me sort of seems wrong. If you know they're in a historic district, they should be put into a specific historic district category ("Sisterdale Valley District") separate from the Sisterdale, Texas one. Again clear info about the HD is not readily available, because the full NRHP nomination doc is not available online yet)...but creating the HD article (or in this case an article section) is a start. So currently I think it would be best to leave them in the Sisterdale, Texas category, but remove the "Historic districts in Texas" category. --doncram 13:56, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
New statistics on Progress page
After some long discussion above regarding the project's quality scale and the initiation of the bot request to tag all NRIS-only stubs, I believe we are on the way to getting back full functionality of the Progress script, which updates WP:NRHPPROGRESS automatically with information about how many pictures/articles we have created. Although I suggested earlier that we finish a mass re-assessment drive before the script is put back up, that can come later, and actually that may even be better because the periodic updates of the Progress page will give everyone that watches the page a heads up if re-assessments are being abused. I will wait for this bot request to go through and finish its initial tagging to implement it, but I think I have come up with a formula to reflect a county's overall "quality" in terms of article completion. The formula I came up with is:
netQuality = (startorhigher + 0.5*stubs - 0.25*unassessed - 0.5*untagged - 0.75*NRISonly)/listings
where hopefully the variable names are self-explanatory. This formula would produce an ideal 100% quality when all articles in a county are not just created but expanded to be Start+ (which necessitates tagging and assessing) and 0% when no articles are created. In a hypothetical county where all articles are created (and thus the articled map shows dark red) but all are stubs, the county gets a 50% quality rating. This formula acknowledges that stubs are good but that Start+ is better, as opposed to the current quality map which doesn't acknowledge stubs at all. The formula also gives deductions to counties which have a large number of untagged or unassessed articles and a large deduction to counties which have NRIS-only stubs. Theoretically the value could be negative (e.g. an entire county of NRIS-only stubs), but I will hard-code it so that if this formula produces a negative number that the quality rating is just 0%.
The formula is open to tweaking, but I think it's pretty representative of overall quality as is. As an example the entire state of California (ignoring the NRIS-only stats since those categories don't yet exist) would get a quality rating of 32% as opposed to the IMO inflated 53% articled statistic and the IMO too low 20.5% Start+ statistic. North Dakota (currently 100% articled, 5.4% Start+... kind of the poster child extreme of this project) would get a 50.7% rating, showing that we've got a good bit of something there but we're nowhere near "100%" done.
As soon as the bot is finished tagging articles, I hope to restore the script and make these modifications, believing them to be both better than the current system and independently indicative of actual quality rather than just quantity. Any comments?--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 22:57, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
- To give everyone more of an idea of how the formula works, I've updated the NRHPstats script to give the "Net Quality Rating" output, which will automatically take NRIS-only articles into account when the bot starts running. Test it out on your home counties or other counties of interest and let me know if you think it needs to be modified.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 00:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- Question, when the bot has finished tagging, where would we go to get the list of articles it has tagged?Coal town guy (talk) 12:54, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- The {{NRIS-only}} template will place all tagged articles in the category (redlink right now) Category:All articles sourced only to NRIS. This category will further be split up by month, e.g. Category:Articles sourced only to NRIS since September 2013.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 13:29, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- GROOVYCoal town guy (talk) 13:31, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- The {{NRIS-only}} template will place all tagged articles in the category (redlink right now) Category:All articles sourced only to NRIS. This category will further be split up by month, e.g. Category:Articles sourced only to NRIS since September 2013.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 13:29, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- Question, when the bot has finished tagging, where would we go to get the list of articles it has tagged?Coal town guy (talk) 12:54, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- I love the Progress page. Kudos to Dudeman and everybody who has helped improve it. I'll just ask that we not make the perfect the enemy of the very good, i.e. let's not argue about fine points. I'll even suggest that we let Dudeman make adjustments as he sees fit, and limit other changes to, say, once every three months, so that we can continue to have regular progress updates. Smallbones(smalltalk) 14:44, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
- I don't understand your formula; it sounds as if unassessed articles actually get subtracted, i.e. a county will get a -25% rating if every site has an unassessed article. Please show me how I'm misunderstanding it. Nyttend (talk) 02:37, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- As I read it, if a stub is not assessed then it adds net 0.25 since: netQuality = (... + 0.5*stubs - 0.25*unassessed - ...)
- There are other pluses and minuses possible, so that you could get negative numbers, except that Dudeman has said if the total is negative, it gets reassigned to 0.0. Just thinking though, can we have an un-assessed stub? Smallbones(smalltalk) 03:21, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- It is impossible to have an "unassessed stub" because by saying an article is a stub, you have assessed it. Obviously, things that are assessed are not unassessed.... So Nyttend is correct in saying that if an article is created yet unassessed, it is a net negative on the quality of the county. The reason I made unassessed and untagged negatives is to incentivize tagging/assessing articles. If an article is not tagged/assessed, it not only skews the numbers on the Progress page but also leaves things like WP:NRHP#Assessment and Collaboration out of date/non-representative of what the project has actually done. Tagging talk pages is useful for a multitude of reasons independent of the Progress page, so there's no reason it shouldn't be done. I realize this will (at least initially) negatively portray states like Ohio where Nyttend himself has done a lot of work yet hasn't created associated talk pages, but that's kind of the point. Tag/assess articles, and you don't have to worry about the negatives :).--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 03:36, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Kumioko has tagged lots of Ohio articles for WP:US and not for WP:NRHP; he's agreed to double-tag in the future, but right now we've got piles of Ohio articles with WP:US ratings and nothing for WP:NRHP, whether rating or class or even a project tag. Any chance that you could have the script count another project's rating (or the lowest, if there are multiple other projects) when an article isn't assessed for WP:NRHP? Nyttend (talk) 04:42, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Today I poked around the Progress page and added tags and ratings for a handful of previously untagged articles. Interestingly (and relevant to Nyttend's suggestion), for a couple of National Register properties that were covered in articles about broader topics, my assessment of the article for NRHP was lower than the existing assessments for other projects. This was because the NRHP property wasn't documented nearly as thoroughly as the broader topic. --Orlady (talk) 04:59, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Kumioko has tagged lots of Ohio articles for WP:US and not for WP:NRHP; he's agreed to double-tag in the future, but right now we've got piles of Ohio articles with WP:US ratings and nothing for WP:NRHP, whether rating or class or even a project tag. Any chance that you could have the script count another project's rating (or the lowest, if there are multiple other projects) when an article isn't assessed for WP:NRHP? Nyttend (talk) 04:42, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- It is impossible to have an "unassessed stub" because by saying an article is a stub, you have assessed it. Obviously, things that are assessed are not unassessed.... So Nyttend is correct in saying that if an article is created yet unassessed, it is a net negative on the quality of the county. The reason I made unassessed and untagged negatives is to incentivize tagging/assessing articles. If an article is not tagged/assessed, it not only skews the numbers on the Progress page but also leaves things like WP:NRHP#Assessment and Collaboration out of date/non-representative of what the project has actually done. Tagging talk pages is useful for a multitude of reasons independent of the Progress page, so there's no reason it shouldn't be done. I realize this will (at least initially) negatively portray states like Ohio where Nyttend himself has done a lot of work yet hasn't created associated talk pages, but that's kind of the point. Tag/assess articles, and you don't have to worry about the negatives :).--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 03:36, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- I don't understand your formula; it sounds as if unassessed articles actually get subtracted, i.e. a county will get a -25% rating if every site has an unassessed article. Please show me how I'm misunderstanding it. Nyttend (talk) 02:37, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- I think I might have found a new reason for oddities in the statistics, particularly including articles that show up as "untagged". Oak Ridge gatehouses is a single article about three identical buildings that are separately listed on the Register. From looking at the county numbers for number of articles and number of untagged articles, I concluded that this article is counted three times on the "number of articles" count, but is counted as "tagged only once (or possibly once in each county). --Orlady (talk) 04:59, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Orlady, good work finding that bug. You are correct that there was a mismatch in how things were counted, but it only crept in when there were duplicated articles on one list, which is from what I've seen not that common. The problem is that when I query the mw:API with all the articles on a county list, the API automatically sorts these alphabetically rather than just spitting them out in the order I queried them. The array I was using to account for duplications, however, was not re-ordered after querying, so there was a mismatch. If there were no duplications, all the numbers in my array were just 1, so nothing mattered, but for National Register of Historic Places listings in Anderson County, Tennessee, a list including the Oak Ridge gatehouses article, there is at least one entry greater than 1 that screwed things up. To fix the bug, I edited the NRHPstats script to alphabetize the titles in my duplications array so that now all the numbers should match up. Thanks again for pointing that out! Let me know if my fix was actually not a fix! Haha--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 07:09, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- I don't know how fast these images get added to the progress page, but this morning as of this writing I added images to Preston County, West Virginia and the Town of Huntington in Suffolk County, New York. I also noticed nearly 2.5 dozen pictures of the Downriver Residential Historic District in Natchez, Mississippi, and was ready to advocate a commons category for it until I found out one already existed. Who wants to decide which one of those images gets used for the county list? ---------User:DanTD (talk) 14:05, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- I flipped a coin. Smallbones(smalltalk) 20:57, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- I don't know how fast these images get added to the progress page, but this morning as of this writing I added images to Preston County, West Virginia and the Town of Huntington in Suffolk County, New York. I also noticed nearly 2.5 dozen pictures of the Downriver Residential Historic District in Natchez, Mississippi, and was ready to advocate a commons category for it until I found out one already existed. Who wants to decide which one of those images gets used for the county list? ---------User:DanTD (talk) 14:05, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
- Orlady, good work finding that bug. You are correct that there was a mismatch in how things were counted, but it only crept in when there were duplicated articles on one list, which is from what I've seen not that common. The problem is that when I query the mw:API with all the articles on a county list, the API automatically sorts these alphabetically rather than just spitting them out in the order I queried them. The array I was using to account for duplications, however, was not re-ordered after querying, so there was a mismatch. If there were no duplications, all the numbers in my array were just 1, so nothing mattered, but for National Register of Historic Places listings in Anderson County, Tennessee, a list including the Oak Ridge gatehouses article, there is at least one entry greater than 1 that screwed things up. To fix the bug, I edited the NRHPstats script to alphabetize the titles in my duplications array so that now all the numbers should match up. Thanks again for pointing that out! Let me know if my fix was actually not a fix! Haha--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 07:09, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Bot discussion
Hi, bot runner here. I think I've finished the list of transclusions of the {{NRISref}}
that meet the requirements. If members could spot check the list User:HasteurBot/NRISref, I'll go ahead and start developing the second script (to tag pages identified with the dated maintenance template) that is driven off the list. I will try to get the coding for the second script done by Saturday (Central US time). If there's a page that should not be on that list, please let me know and I'll poke around to see why that page ended up on the list and if another exception to the list generation should be developed. Hasteur (talk) 16:34, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
- Observation, the bot did well. However, there are a few places where the NRHP ref is used once, in a list of other refs.....Kesslers Cross Lanes, West Virginia and John J. Beckley are examplesCoal town guy (talk) 16:59, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
The John J. Beckley only has 1 inline citation, no {{GR}}
cites, no {{sfn}}
cites. I think it would be preferable to have the rest of those references wrangled into inline citations (instead of a bulleted list at the end) so an exclusion for those types would be appropriate. As to the Kesslers Cross Lanes article, the reason why it shows up on the "report" is because you added that GNIS entry after the list was being generated and the Kesslers Cross Lanes article was already in the list. Hasteur (talk) 17:20, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
- GROOVY. I have started to take a look at all of the NRHP listings for WV and KY. I caught Kesslers last night, as well as St Colmans, in Dillon, West Virginia and there were some others. I am also creating geo articles for locations that have a NRHP property...Glad to see the bot and everyone else is on the same sheet of musicCoal town guy (talk) 17:24, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
- User:Jonathunder/sandbox is on the list and should not be included, nor any other User-space pages.
- It seems unhelpful to tag Louis Menand, an article which is sourced by sources listed as external references, plus having an explicit NRIS footnote used to correctly support the fact that an associated house is NRHP-listed. So {{refimprove}} or {{More footnotes}} is appropriate, while an alarmist message incorrectly suggesting that the article was sourced from NRIS, and suggesting it has inaccuracies, does not seem helpful.
- It looks to me like there a lot of cases like that. How about we figure out what to do about them, before tagging the articles inappropriately, spamming-style. I would personally prefer to set up a category for exclusion from display of the NRIS-only message, where the message is pretty obviously not helpful. And then we could take a few days to visit the articles and put that in. To do otherwise seems unnecessarily wp:Disruptive and wp:POINTY. :) Or, what is intended, when Wikiproject NRHP editors or non-Wikiproject NRHP editors see it is appropriate to remove the unhelpful tag? I do understand that one or more persons want a bot to come back again and again and overrule local editor judgment, but that seems not good, somehow. :) --doncram 21:36, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
- I disagree, the logic you want to introduce would needlessly complicate the code. In fact, it would make it virtually impossible to find many of the outstanding articles. I did indeed take a look at the aticle you mentioned as well as ~ 25 others. The tag i a great tool. The only pointy thing here is your resistance. It is happening, the article are going to be tagged. I have yet to see any editor, any other voice say that tagging any article and wanting it to be improved because its at best a pale repeat of a nom form, is not helpful. I was able to correct a few errors, and update a few articles as well.I also do not in any way recall, any singular peron being targeted for this effort The effort needs to happen. Its a fact. I would submit that everyone here edits. When it gets confrontational, because one source can be milked for 2 or 3, I walk away. Thats bad data. Its called rinse and repeat, ho hum. I have in fact ceased editing an article due to your insistance that a nom form summary is different than the nom form, despite the fact that the nom form summary states explicitly, its a summary, see full text below. If I recall you stated the nom form had different content. I think its not beyond the pale to conclude a summary will differ than its source on a verbatim level, but, hey thats just me. The articles are going to be tagged. The bot is running, the encyclopedia will grow.......Coal town guy (talk) 22:28, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
- @User:Coal town guy: I've seen you say things about the nomination form several times in this discussion. I would like to clear up a few things if you might be confused. The idea that a summary of the nomination form is/is not different from the nomination form itself is not under the scope of this bot. We're not tagging articles that include the nomination form as a source; we're tagging articles that are only sourced to the NRIS, which is a database in which the nomination forms are not found. If an article has an NRIS reference as well as a nomination form, the article is perfectly fine and shouldn't be tagged. The only articles that are going to be tagged are those which only have one inline citation to NRIS. Adding a nomination form to these articles if it is available (or any other reliable source out there) will allow an editor to remove the NRIS-only tag. Nomination forms: good, NRIS-only: bad.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 22:36, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
- Understood, and I very much appreciate you taking the time to point that out. I am in 100% agreement, we need this bot to run. I think that the bot will help, but yes, to your point, no, its not going to adress the concern I mentioned. Specically, nom form, nom form summary, nom form at different site, all different refs...yuh, I dont agree about that, but, thats not for here or now. What we DO need NOW is to find the many many many articles with NRIS only and yes, they are out there.......Coal town guy (talk) 23:19, 11 September 2013 (UTC)Coal town guy (talk) 23:10, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
- @User:Coal town guy: I've seen you say things about the nomination form several times in this discussion. I would like to clear up a few things if you might be confused. The idea that a summary of the nomination form is/is not different from the nomination form itself is not under the scope of this bot. We're not tagging articles that include the nomination form as a source; we're tagging articles that are only sourced to the NRIS, which is a database in which the nomination forms are not found. If an article has an NRIS reference as well as a nomination form, the article is perfectly fine and shouldn't be tagged. The only articles that are going to be tagged are those which only have one inline citation to NRIS. Adding a nomination form to these articles if it is available (or any other reliable source out there) will allow an editor to remove the NRIS-only tag. Nomination forms: good, NRIS-only: bad.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 22:36, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
- Agree on the user/other non-mainspace pages. As for the architect/geographical pages, external links are not references. The articles need improvement regardless, so it won't hurt them to initially be tagged to be brought out of obscurity. In order to remove the tag, all you have to do is add a second inline citation to the article, which takes minimal effort--you don't even have to find new information to add in those cases. In fact, you could even use the list Hasteur provided before the actual bot run proceeds to find all/most of the architect/geographical pages affected and add other references to them so that they don't get tagged in the first place if you think that would be too disruptive. The bottom line is these articles only have one inline citation to the NRIS, which is what the bot is meant to find--it's doing its job correctly. Yes, these are not technically the articles we're trying to find, but the method to get the tag removed is both not that difficult and overall helpful to the encyclopedia as a whole anyway.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 22:30, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
- It's not a technical issue with the bot, but it is troubling to see that the list includes articles like Colbert's Ferry that are amply supplied with sources, but lack in-line citations (other than NRIS). Maybe the bot logic needs to be changed so it looks for sources that aren't cited in-line -- and doesn't flag articles like that one. --Orlady (talk) 20:05, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
- What's the WP:HEY value for reducing the perceived Original Research in a article by converting the end references to inline citations compared to the perceived cost for adding the maintenance template? As mentioned above (17:20, 11 September 2013) I think the benefit of having the citations is worth the cost of the increased usage of the tag. Hasteur (talk) 20:38, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
- I would say those articles do need to be tagged because those sources should be converted to inline citations anyway. See my comment just above yours.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 20:40, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
- I thoroughly agree that articles like that one deserve to be flagged for a problem. My concern is that the planned NRIS-only template is not relevant for an article like Colbert's Ferry. That particular article is clearly based on the sources listed under "Sources" (and possibly also the items listed under "External links"); the only content based on NRIS is the NRHP infobox. This is not an instance of an article based only on NRIS; it's an article that needs in-line citations. BTW, after seeing the list, I've edited a couple of biographies (David Adler and George Tibbits) that were clearly based on sources other NRIS, but cited NRIS for reasons largely unrelated to their biographical content. --Orlady (talk) 21:11, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
- Maybe we should change the wording of the NRIS-only template then? Maybe "...includes only one citation to the NRIS..." rather than is based on the NRIS. Then it's more technically true I guess. I still don't see why adding inline citations to other sources as you have done to those 2 author articles can't be done to articles like Colbert's Ferry, et all.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 22:07, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
- It's a good thing one of us is thinking clearly, Dudeman. Revised template wording is the obvious answer. I suggest the following rewording of Template:NRIS-only:
- This article cites a single source, the National Register Information System (NRIS) database. Articles based solely on NRIS may contain errors. Please help ensure the accuracy of the information in this article by adding inline citations to at least one more reliable source. --Orlady (talk) 01:56, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
- "includes only one citation to the NRIS" would be applicable to an article with piles of citations to major scholarly sources throughout and a normal NRIS citation in the infobox but nowhere else. I prefer Orlady's wording, since it more clearly excludes pages such as Virginian Railway, which we definitely don't care about for the purposes of this discussion.
Can someone please give me a link to the template that we're going to use? I've looked over this page without finding it.Nyttend (talk) 02:50, 13 September 2013 (UTC)- The template is at {{NRIS-only}}. I agree that Orlady's wording sounds good. I'll wait a little and see if anyone opposes (though I can't fathom why they would) before I copy it over. Or anyone else can copy it over if they feel this is consensus. Whichever.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 02:55, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
- Looks well done to meCoal town guy (talk) 16:49, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
- The template is at {{NRIS-only}}. I agree that Orlady's wording sounds good. I'll wait a little and see if anyone opposes (though I can't fathom why they would) before I copy it over. Or anyone else can copy it over if they feel this is consensus. Whichever.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 02:55, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
- "includes only one citation to the NRIS" would be applicable to an article with piles of citations to major scholarly sources throughout and a normal NRIS citation in the infobox but nowhere else. I prefer Orlady's wording, since it more clearly excludes pages such as Virginian Railway, which we definitely don't care about for the purposes of this discussion.
- This article cites a single source, the National Register Information System (NRIS) database. Articles based solely on NRIS may contain errors. Please help ensure the accuracy of the information in this article by adding inline citations to at least one more reliable source. --Orlady (talk) 01:56, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
- It's a good thing one of us is thinking clearly, Dudeman. Revised template wording is the obvious answer. I suggest the following rewording of Template:NRIS-only:
- Maybe we should change the wording of the NRIS-only template then? Maybe "...includes only one citation to the NRIS..." rather than is based on the NRIS. Then it's more technically true I guess. I still don't see why adding inline citations to other sources as you have done to those 2 author articles can't be done to articles like Colbert's Ferry, et all.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 22:07, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
- I thoroughly agree that articles like that one deserve to be flagged for a problem. My concern is that the planned NRIS-only template is not relevant for an article like Colbert's Ferry. That particular article is clearly based on the sources listed under "Sources" (and possibly also the items listed under "External links"); the only content based on NRIS is the NRHP infobox. This is not an instance of an article based only on NRIS; it's an article that needs in-line citations. BTW, after seeing the list, I've edited a couple of biographies (David Adler and George Tibbits) that were clearly based on sources other NRIS, but cited NRIS for reasons largely unrelated to their biographical content. --Orlady (talk) 21:11, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
- I would say those articles do need to be tagged because those sources should be converted to inline citations anyway. See my comment just above yours.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 20:40, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
- What's the WP:HEY value for reducing the perceived Original Research in a article by converting the end references to inline citations compared to the perceived cost for adding the maintenance template? As mentioned above (17:20, 11 September 2013) I think the benefit of having the citations is worth the cost of the increased usage of the tag. Hasteur (talk) 20:38, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
- It's not a technical issue with the bot, but it is troubling to see that the list includes articles like Colbert's Ferry that are amply supplied with sources, but lack in-line citations (other than NRIS). Maybe the bot logic needs to be changed so it looks for sources that aren't cited in-line -- and doesn't flag articles like that one. --Orlady (talk) 20:05, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
- I disagree, the logic you want to introduce would needlessly complicate the code. In fact, it would make it virtually impossible to find many of the outstanding articles. I did indeed take a look at the aticle you mentioned as well as ~ 25 others. The tag i a great tool. The only pointy thing here is your resistance. It is happening, the article are going to be tagged. I have yet to see any editor, any other voice say that tagging any article and wanting it to be improved because its at best a pale repeat of a nom form, is not helpful. I was able to correct a few errors, and update a few articles as well.I also do not in any way recall, any singular peron being targeted for this effort The effort needs to happen. Its a fact. I would submit that everyone here edits. When it gets confrontational, because one source can be milked for 2 or 3, I walk away. Thats bad data. Its called rinse and repeat, ho hum. I have in fact ceased editing an article due to your insistance that a nom form summary is different than the nom form, despite the fact that the nom form summary states explicitly, its a summary, see full text below. If I recall you stated the nom form had different content. I think its not beyond the pale to conclude a summary will differ than its source on a verbatim level, but, hey thats just me. The articles are going to be tagged. The bot is running, the encyclopedia will grow.......Coal town guy (talk) 22:28, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Bot misses?
I've found a number of NRIS-only stubs that don't seem to appear on Hasteur's list. I know too little about templates or bots to speculate as to the reason; could someone more knowledgeable look at them and see if they can figure out why the bot run missed them? Examples include St. Bonaventure Church Complex, St. Anthony's Church and School (Cedar Rapids, Nebraska), Saint Anthony's Church and Rectory, First Presbyterian Church of Florence, First Baptist Church (Casa Grande, Arizona), and C.H. Cook Memorial Church.
Also, can and should we manually add the NRIS-only template to articles that don't strictly meet the criterion? I'm thinking about things like All Saint's Church (Oracle, Arizona): the NRIS address was incorrect (probably predating an address change rather than in error ab initio), and I added a citation for the corrected address. For all intents and purposes, however, the article's still NRIS-only, since none of the other information in it has been checked against and attributed to more reliable sources. Ammodramus (talk) 14:05, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
- As for the first question, the bot is still in the development stage, so the list will evolve. I think User:Hasteur is currently working on modifying the code based on some suggestions above and at the bot request page, but I'll let him speak for himself there. As to why these articles weren't included, I have no clue.
- About tagging pages manually, technically there's nothing stopping you, so yes you can tag anything you want. I would be fine with tagging that article because it may be that other NRIS data is incorrect, and the article still contains basically no information.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 15:17, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
- I pointed out the first issue on the bot request page, so Hasteur is aware of it. It sounds like a lot of pages got left out of the initial list just because NRISref is transcluded so many times and the list isn't meant to be complete yet. It seems like this disproportionately affected the church stubs that were created in the past year, which I suspect is because they're more recent transclusions than the other articles on the list. TheCatalyst31 Reaction•Creation 19:22, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for the replies. I apologize for raising what may have been a false alarm; I hadn't realized that the list was truncated. Thanks to Hasteur for checking it out (and for all the rest of the work on it, for which a large vote of gratitude is in order).
- Could I solicit comments from other members of the WikiProject on the matter of manually adding the template to articles that don't strictly meet the NRIS-only criterion, but are morally equivalent, like the Oracle article linked above? I suspect that certain editors will object to this being done, and in so objecting will employ such words as "negativity", "bullying", and "alarmist". I'd like very much to do such manual insertions of the template, but, in light of these anticipated objections, think that I ought to seek consensus before so doing. Ammodramus (talk) 23:21, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
- I can see the merit of manually adding the template to articles like that one (BTW: I edited your link to point the version that existed at the time you made you comment), but if we do that, we need to adjust the wording of the template so it will make sense when applied to three different types of articles:
- articles for which NRIS is the only identified source
- articles for which NRIS is the only source cited inline, although they may identify other sources
- articles for which NRIS is the only actual source of the content, although they may have inline citations to other sources. --Orlady (talk) 18:32, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- "This article appears to rely heavily on a single source, the National Register Information System (NRIS) database, either because it is the only inline citation or because it includes very little information from other sources. Articles based solely on NRIS may contain errors. Please help ensure the accuracy of the information in this article by adding inline citations to at least one more reliable source."?--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 18:49, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- That wording should work. More concise wording would be preferable, but I don't have any bright ideas at the moment. Also, it would be nice if the linked content at WP:NRHPHELP#NRIS were a bit more concise and focused. --Orlady (talk) 19:19, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- "This article appears to rely heavily on a single source, the National Register Information System (NRIS) database, either because it is the only inline citation or because it includes very little information from other sources. Articles based solely on NRIS may contain errors. Please help ensure the accuracy of the information in this article by adding inline citations to at least one more reliable source."?--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 18:49, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
- I can see the merit of manually adding the template to articles like that one (BTW: I edited your link to point the version that existed at the time you made you comment), but if we do that, we need to adjust the wording of the template so it will make sense when applied to three different types of articles:
- Could I solicit comments from other members of the WikiProject on the matter of manually adding the template to articles that don't strictly meet the NRIS-only criterion, but are morally equivalent, like the Oracle article linked above? I suspect that certain editors will object to this being done, and in so objecting will employ such words as "negativity", "bullying", and "alarmist". I'd like very much to do such manual insertions of the template, but, in light of these anticipated objections, think that I ought to seek consensus before so doing. Ammodramus (talk) 23:21, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
AfC discussion about Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Downriver Residential Historic District
There is a current discussion at AfC about a specific AfC submission (Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Downriver Residential Historic District). If a member of the project could stop by and provide guidance regarding the project's standards and the viability of the submission, that would be great.I am trying to keep this as neutral as possible to prevent battles of personality Hasteur (talk) 16:26, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
- Discussion there was concluded by the draft being approved to mainspace Downriver Residential Historic District. It was me who created the commons category for the 34 WLM-contributed pics, and recategorized the pics to that, and I wanted further to start an article to begin to use them.
- Any suggestions of other articles needed to support WLM contributions, e.g. maybe other historic district articles especially, would be welcomed. Last year Smallbones ran a workpage of articles-to-create, specifically to provide some quality assurance that award-nominated pics were actually depicting NRHP-listed places. This time there is no comparable award going on? I am not sure. Anyhow, if someone contributes 10 or more pics for an HD it would be nice to give them some play in a new article. Post suggestions
at wt:NRHP/WLM 2013 articles needed?here on wt:NRHP? --doncram 21:10, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, I figured out that the Swiss chalet style spectacular house labelled "File:Natchez Bluffs and Under-the-Hill Historic District-409.jpg" is misidentified at Commons; it is instead a house in adjacent, spectacular Natchez On-Top-of-the-Hill Historic District. I document this more specifically at Talk:Downriver Residential Historic District. Yikes, i don't know how to proceed now, this is a Commons issue, and I am not familiar with processes there. Can anyone else possibly please help address this with the uploader and with renaming it at Commons? Argh. --doncram 08:33, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
- The uploader requested the file rename on Commons, and I renamed the file. This category may require more attention.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:44, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
- Misnamed stuff like this doesn't always get renamed at Commons; a note in the description that the file's been misnamed will generally suffice. However, uploader-requested renames are almost always performed, and they'd be denied only in exceptional cases, so Ymblanter's course of action was the best. Nyttend (talk) 00:28, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
- The uploader requested the file rename on Commons, and I renamed the file. This category may require more attention.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:44, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
- Spectacular. Thank you to Ymblanter and Nyttend, both. Unfortunately the rename put it into Natchez Bluffs and Under-the-Hill Historic District (currently a redlink; new article draft for that at Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Natchez Bluffs and Under-the-Hill Historic District). It belongs in Natchez On-Top-of-the-Hill Historic District, instead. Misunderstanding by the uploader, given no articles and hence no links to NRHP documents, and given cryptic location info (from NRIS i guess) in the NRHP list-article, is quite reasonable. So now there are two categories having probably-misidentified photos. It's nice that the uploader is responding in Commons, and I am sure we'll get it all sorted out. First I want to get the articles into reasonable shape. Again, creating articles on all the NRHP-listed HDs, especially where a WLM participant is adding pics, should maybe be a priority of this Wikiproject, both to give some play to the pics and to head off / fix up any confusions on HD borders and on photo identifications. :) --doncram 16:30, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
Princeton Historic District
A while back I started a sandbox for the Princeton Historic District in Princeton, New Jersey, and I see that recently some people added images for it. If anybody wants to take it off my hands and fill in all the details I missed, they're welcome to it. And if they want to create articles on the other Princeton Historic Districts in the country, that's fine by me as well. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 19:10, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
Cedar Point Light
National Register of Historic Places listings in Sandusky, Ohio has two separate listings for the same place: Cedar Point Light and the U.S. Coast Guard Building (no article), and they're identical. While trying to get precise locations for sites in this area, I began to suspect that it was one double-listed property; I asked for help at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lighthouses, and my suspicions were confirmed. I've copied that discussion here and collapsed it for the sake of those who don't want to bother reading it.
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Looking for help from anyone who has resources (preferably comprehensive books) on US lighthouses, and in particular the Great Lakes. National Register of Historic Places listings in Sandusky, Ohio lists two separate facilities at Cedar Point: the Cedar Point Light, and an additional building called the "U.S. Coast Guard Building", which according to its Ohio Historical Society profile has also been known as the "Cedar Point Rear Range Light". I'm wondering if the two might be the same building, for the following reasons:
All this being said, I would greatly appreciate it if someone could check a comprehensive list of current and former lighthouses on Lake Erie and attempt to resolve the situation. Thanks! Nyttend (talk) 22:46, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
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Since Cedar Point Light is the WP:COMMONNAME, the article surely should stay where it is. We've removed duplicates in the past when they were discovered; for example, go to National Register of Historic Places listings in Hamilton County, Ohio and see what we've done with the twice-listed Twin Oaks. But what should we do with the list of RHPs in Sandusky — should we remove the CP Light entry or the Coast Guard Building entry? Neither "Twin Oaks" nor the "Robert Reily House" is famous to any extent, so we simply got rid of the later addition, i.e. we display it as Twin Oaks because that name was on the Register for eleven years before Robert Reily House was. Here, however, U.S. Coast Guard Building was on the Register for almost two years before the Cedar Point Light was added. Should we go with an obscure name that was listed earlier, or should we treat this like a mangled boundary increase and go with the later name? Nyttend (talk) 00:38, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
- Keep both and pipe links to the same article. The ref numbers are different, so the listings are technically separate. I'd note the duality with each's entry in the table, maybe even the intro as well. I probably would have suggested the same for Twin Oaks. If you'd like I could see what other information I can find on the Cedar Point, I've some experience with writing lighthouse articles. Niagara Don't give up the ship 02:58, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
- But this is clearly an error by NRIS, and there's exactly one NR-listed lighthouse at Cedar Point, while keeping both says that there are two different NR-listed places there. It's completely different from normal NRIS weirdnesses, since this one is plainly a mistake — places don't intentionally get listed twice. We should treat this like we do spelling errors, such as with the "Possom Bottom Covered Bridge" in Vermillion County, Indiana, or like we do geographic errors, such as placing the George Rogers Clark Memorial Bridge in Clark County, Kentucky instead of in its actual location in Clark County, Indiana. Nyttend (talk) 03:06, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
- The way I see it, it may be an error, but because it is not as obvious as others someone could be easily be looking for the listing we omit not knowing its a duplicate and have removed it accordingly. Noting the secondary name might be not enough, at least with Cedar Point Light, because there are probably many U.S. Coast Guard Buildings (the same way as there are many U.S. Post Offices are U.S. Courthouses). Making sure that someone looking for either listing and directing them to the correct article with an explanation that the two are one and the same is better than trying to pretend the mistake never occurred. But, you know, if consensus is for removing one, go with WP:COMMONNAME. Niagara Don't give up the ship 16:31, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
- The way to find out is to request the nomination forms, innit? I'm reminded of the Topaz War Relocation Center, which has 2 listings in National Register of Historic Places listings in Millard County, Utah. Only the older one (the non-NHL) seems to have a PDF at Focus, so I don't know yet whether or not it's a duplicate. Ntsimp (talk) 18:52, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps the way to approach Nyttend's point is to answer this question: do Wikipedia's NRHP articles list places, or NHRP listings? If the former, you only need one entry in the article for each place, no matter how frequently listed; if the latter, you need one for each listing, regardless of whether or not it duplicates something else on the list. (I know of several duplicate listings in Massachusetts; I suspect later listings are done in ignorance of earlier listings.) Magic♪piano 19:37, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
- The way I see it, it may be an error, but because it is not as obvious as others someone could be easily be looking for the listing we omit not knowing its a duplicate and have removed it accordingly. Noting the secondary name might be not enough, at least with Cedar Point Light, because there are probably many U.S. Coast Guard Buildings (the same way as there are many U.S. Post Offices are U.S. Courthouses). Making sure that someone looking for either listing and directing them to the correct article with an explanation that the two are one and the same is better than trying to pretend the mistake never occurred. But, you know, if consensus is for removing one, go with WP:COMMONNAME. Niagara Don't give up the ship 16:31, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
- But this is clearly an error by NRIS, and there's exactly one NR-listed lighthouse at Cedar Point, while keeping both says that there are two different NR-listed places there. It's completely different from normal NRIS weirdnesses, since this one is plainly a mistake — places don't intentionally get listed twice. We should treat this like we do spelling errors, such as with the "Possom Bottom Covered Bridge" in Vermillion County, Indiana, or like we do geographic errors, such as placing the George Rogers Clark Memorial Bridge in Clark County, Kentucky instead of in its actual location in Clark County, Indiana. Nyttend (talk) 03:06, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
Answering Magicpiano's question, I would argue that the places / properties are what are notable, not the fact that they are listed on the NRHP (there are reliable sources to cite about the things themselves, but there are only rarely news stories, etc. that mention just a change in NRHP status for the things). I wondered if there might be two structures at the site (pure speculation, for example could there be both a light tower and a keeper's house and these were listed separately). However, looking at the article here and the picture here (and more on Flickr), it seems pretty obvious that there is just one structure. I would have the article at the common name (Cedar Point Light or CPL) with a redirect for the Coast Guard. I would mention in the CPL article that the property has apparently been listed twice, and also mention this in the county list (both in the top to point out there is apparently one duplicate, and at the Coast Guard listing to point out it is the same as CPL). I guess the last thing I would do is contact the NRHP / NPS folks and make them aware of the situation. These are my thoughts, but I am open to other ideas. I looked at the Multiple Property Submission for the Great Lakes lighthouses, but did not find much on this there. It mentions a survey at the HAER, but when I looked at the Library of Congress HABS website I could not find any such survey searching Great Lakes or light houses, and also could not find this lighthouse there. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 12:49, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
Can a 3 sentence article be a start??
What say you?. Trying my best to get the ratings...Coal town guy (talk) 17:19, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- Of course that's a stub! --Orlady (talk) 17:37, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- Almost all of the points in the stub criteria apply to this article:
- A very basic description of the topic; minimal content, no structured information.
- May explain the nature of the property and why it is significant, and perhaps a bit of its history and design, but little more (and often less). :::Usually very short
; but, if the material is irrelevant or incomprehensible, an article of any length falls into this category. - Provides very little meaningful content; may be little more than confirming the site is listed on/related to the NRHP. Any editing or additional material can be helpful. The provision of meaningful content should be a priority. --Orlady (talk) 17:45, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- Thats cool. My sanity check is complete. I was told within the edit notes of the Talk Page section by another editor that it was changed back to a start because after AFc, its best to keep the rating assigned at that time see here.... I disagree in this specific instance. I did not get that at all, so I changed it back to a stub. Once in a while, a sanity check is just thatCoal town guy (talk) 18:04, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- That explains your query. AFC reviewers apparently see so much dreck that they have started to regard three complete sentences and a infobox as a "start-class". --Orlady (talk) 18:34, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- Got that, I changed it to a stub, fro a start, then another editor made it a start again, and then, I thought, it is a stub, made it a stub again and JUST IN CASE, I thought I would ask hereCoal town guy (talk) 18:40, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- That explains your query. AFC reviewers apparently see so much dreck that they have started to regard three complete sentences and a infobox as a "start-class". --Orlady (talk) 18:34, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- Thats cool. My sanity check is complete. I was told within the edit notes of the Talk Page section by another editor that it was changed back to a start because after AFc, its best to keep the rating assigned at that time see here.... I disagree in this specific instance. I did not get that at all, so I changed it back to a stub. Once in a while, a sanity check is just thatCoal town guy (talk) 18:04, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Orlady, I would appreciate if you abide by the sense of the arbcom process, involving your egging on editors like one banned in the arbcom from interacting with me. You were advised in the arbcom to back off. You have since been advised in a recent ANI that you opened, to back off. Here, you seem to be egging on an editor to dispute Wikiproject AFC Start ratings on articles begun by me, assigned by an AFC editor (the editor having no knowledge that I know about about regarding your long-term behavior with respect to me, and having no knowledge of your and others pushing of an unusually high standard for Start to be applied to NRHP articles for WikiProject NRHP). This is nonsense, you are advocating that CTG should change a named AFC editor's rating of an article for WikiProject AFC? That is highly inappropriate, even moronic, to use a strong word. Just back the hell off, Orlady, please, and don't egg on another clone like you did egg on S. and also egg on P., imho. (revised for clarity to O.) It is what you do, you stand off a bit and egg on others to harass me. I suppose it will probably require further Arbcom or other processes, to get you to stop, if that will ever happen. However, I would hope nonetheless that you would choose, personally, to stop with propagating the battleground. Just stop, please. --doncram 21:33, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- Warning at all: Please for the love of DIETY do not edit war over the evaluation that a member of the AfC project gave to a page. If you disagree with the rating given on behalf of your project, feel free to change it, but each project has it's own rubric over what constitutes the various classes. Coal town guy, Why did you not bring the issue to the reviewer who promoted the submission out of AfC space rather than have (what appears to be) a conniption fit/disruptive point making on the talk page. @Doncram: Toss kerosene much? It takes two to tango and your actions are significantly less than helpful in diffusing conflict. I ask that you take steps immediately to take the appropriate steps for dispute resolution or to cease your accusations of misbehavior by Orlady. Failure to pursue either of those routes could lead to actions that would be disruptive to both you and the project, up to and including asking for Arbitration Remedy enforcement (for which you have already been warned twice this year). Hasteur (talk) 22:37, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- Or the AfC project could, you know, actually assess articles properly. Wizardman 22:39, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
In my opinion, if an article uses the stub template, it should be rated Stub on the talk page. Conversely, if someone rates it Start, they should remove the stub template from the article. One or the other. 66.217.196.143 (talk) 23:24, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- [EC] Doncram, I fully recognize that you won't believe me, but I did not know who had written the article that User:Coal town guy asked about until after I saw his post at 18:04 today. I took his question at face value and responded without looking at the article history or the talk page history. Excuse me for being straightforward and acting in good faith, instead of treating Wikipedia like a treacherous battle game where all actions must be premeditated in order to achieve some sort maximum strategic advantage against other players. If I had investigated the background to his question and seen you name on that article, you can bet that I wouldn't have responded the way I did. (However, I do think that AFC volunteers are over-rating some of your contributions.) --Orlady (talk) 23:38, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- God dammit, Doncram. The bot request was just withdrawn because of this. Can you please just do everyone here a favor and simply go away? For good? Please?--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 00:41, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- Dudemanfellabra should be given a block, IMHO, for repeated personal attacks and swearing. And, that is simply not what Hasteur stated, it is not because of CTG's and Orlady's and others disputing what uninvolved AFC editors have been rating articles, that the bot request is withdrawn. I don't fully understand the withdrawal, exactly, myself, but that is not what is stated, by Hasteur, here in this thread or there. Dudemanfellabra, your growing tendency to blame me for everything that you don't like, is not helping anything. --doncram 00:50, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- God dammit, Doncram. The bot request was just withdrawn because of this. Can you please just do everyone here a favor and simply go away? For good? Please?--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 00:41, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- [EC] Doncram, I fully recognize that you won't believe me, but I did not know who had written the article that User:Coal town guy asked about until after I saw his post at 18:04 today. I took his question at face value and responded without looking at the article history or the talk page history. Excuse me for being straightforward and acting in good faith, instead of treating Wikipedia like a treacherous battle game where all actions must be premeditated in order to achieve some sort maximum strategic advantage against other players. If I had investigated the background to his question and seen you name on that article, you can bet that I wouldn't have responded the way I did. (However, I do think that AFC volunteers are over-rating some of your contributions.) --Orlady (talk) 23:38, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Is there really an argument over whether this is a stub or a start class article? Time would be much more productively spent just expanding the thing to where this is moot. Jonathunder (talk) 01:03, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- As of this date 9/16/2013, I am in totum UNINVOLVED with the rating of ANY NRHP article. I will contribute pics, I will add data. EGGING ME ON are you shitting me, really? I am NOT an emotional tampon nor am I at the behest of any person here. I actually respect people here. Funny, eh? I worked my cock off for a Start article, BUT you want a Start for 3 sentences, GO FOR IT. In fact, why not make it a FA because you looked at it? HOW THE HELL was I supposed to know who to let know? You mean 3 sentences getting changed from a Start to a Stub, requires notification? Being bold, ALL BULLSHIT. I am DONE performing to every little nuance or argument or decision or St. Vitus Dance because this editors name is mentioned. I do not give a dried shit who edits, we all edit, all I want to do is learn, and contribute more and here we are, doing the shower stall shuffle. OH HELL NO.Coal town guy (talk) 01:12, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- I'm surprised this project is as active as it is given Doncram's long-term vandalism and disruption. Don't worry, I won't touch anymore involving this, you guys can solve your own damn problems. Wizardman 01:19, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
- As of this date 9/16/2013, I am in totum UNINVOLVED with the rating of ANY NRHP article. I will contribute pics, I will add data. EGGING ME ON are you shitting me, really? I am NOT an emotional tampon nor am I at the behest of any person here. I actually respect people here. Funny, eh? I worked my cock off for a Start article, BUT you want a Start for 3 sentences, GO FOR IT. In fact, why not make it a FA because you looked at it? HOW THE HELL was I supposed to know who to let know? You mean 3 sentences getting changed from a Start to a Stub, requires notification? Being bold, ALL BULLSHIT. I am DONE performing to every little nuance or argument or decision or St. Vitus Dance because this editors name is mentioned. I do not give a dried shit who edits, we all edit, all I want to do is learn, and contribute more and here we are, doing the shower stall shuffle. OH HELL NO.Coal town guy (talk) 01:12, 17 September 2013 (UTC)